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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #15 on: July 02, 2007, 08:21:57 PM »
It's my understanding that the records don't follow from middle school, once in high school, they will follow to college.  Bummer.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2007, 12:04:17 AM »
Kids have been expelled for toys guns, scissors, aspirin, etc.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2007, 03:50:21 PM »
I foresee parent or student lawsuits for defamation about incidents in permanent records.

See, the record doesn't affect the kid financially in junior high or high school. There were no actual damages the way it used to be done, so allegations in the permanent record were not actionable even if they were false. No damages = no actionable defamation.

Now, if colleges insist on seeing the permanent record, then any false accusations in it are defamations with actual damages. Since the kid is not a public figure, it's enough that the charges are false--the kid doesn't have to prove intent to defame and either knowledge of falsity or reckless disregard for the truth. Falsity is enough.

In a defamation case, the burden of proof is not going to be on the student to prove the allegation is false. It's a bad statement about the kid by the school or school personnel, and it causes actual damages.

This makes it defamation under the law.

Truth is what's called an "affirmative defense" against defamation.

What it means is the defendant says, "I did say bad things about the plaintiff that caused him actual damages, but what I said was true."

The burden of proof to show that the defamatory statements were true is on the defendant--in this case the school.

The school can legally say, "We suspended Joe Schmoe Kid on such and such a date" or, "We gave Joe detention on such and such a date."

If they say why they suspended or gave Joe detention, unless they can prove it in a court of law, they have a big risk of Joe winning. The school districts will definitely spend a lot of money defending against defamation suits when Joe's family has deep pockets, because the very fact that Joe isn't a public figure has been defamed (whether true or not), and has actual damages, makes his lawsuit have enough merit to go to trial. His parents won't have to worry about having to pay the school district's legal fees.

Also, based on the history of employment law lawsuits--which you better believe plaintiffs' lawyers will file as briefs with the judge--districts will have a great deal of liability just for saying Joe was suspended or given detention.

That's why employers only give dates of employment now when called for references.

It won't be enough for colleges to insist the student give a waiver on the permanent record's release to be considered. The school will then have liability because the kid will have actual damages for the permanent record being on file whether the school releases it or not.

What will happen, at minimum, is that permanent records will become like credit ratings only more so. If the parents or kid can credibly demonstrate that the allegation may be false, the school better delete the information from the kid's record.

More likely, almost all districts will have a policy of destroying all permanent records--if only in the form of expunging everything.

Translation: "Here's Joe's permanent record like you requested. No, there's nothing in it, nothing at all."

Colleges won't have a leg to stand on to complain to the school about negative material simply being deleted from the record. They insisted on getting the record, they got it.

Sure, this is not the situation as it stands now, but correction of this particular problem is only a handful of high profile lawsuits away.

I am not a lawyer, this is not specific legal advice to anybody.

However, based on my amateur knowledge of slander and libel laws, the bad idea of students' permanent records following them to college will die horribly as soon as it starts being challenged in court.

Let me put it another way. I am not a lawyer, but I would love to be the plaintiff's lawyer for Johnny Haaahvahd or Jenny Yale when a couple of these cases get into court. Big money.

I'm pretty surprised that school districts' legal departments aren't all over this like white on rice already--and I'd bet that some are. I'd bet a lot of districts are just quietly going through seniors' permanent records around September and deleting, deleting, deleting before the kids start getting their college applications in. Or deleting everything when the kids first go through the school counselors for the application process, maybe depending on whether the places the kid's applying to are known to ask for records.

You'll also get parents' lawyers requesting copies of student files from the district (and getting them) and requesting the removal of uncomplimentary material (and getting it).

Julie
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2007, 04:02:55 PM »
Our kid (elementary age) had a nightmare principal this year. There is no telling what the b*tch put in her file. Considering the outright dishonesty we caught the woman in, and her maliciousness, I wouldn't put it past her to have made up stuff out of whole cloth. Katie didn't have any disciplinary events beyond a teacher's "don't do that", and never has, but I still wouldn't have put it past that woman to have just made stuff up.

In case you couldn't tell, my husband and I have a very low opinion of her--with a pretty harsh paper trail against the school to back up why.

Getting a copy of all the records is one of the "to do's" on our list, and for other related issues we've already talked to lawyers. It was that bad. I never ran into anything anywhere near that when I was going through school, and I didn't exactly have an easy childhood.

From stories I heard from a few friends in college about principals they'd had--I remember one charmer that actually kept gossip and blackmail files on all the kids in his school--I expect a lot of lawsuits with merit.

The Vice Principal above sounds ultra ethical, but not all administrators share that trait.

As I said, I'd love to be a trial lawyer for the plaintiffs in some of these cases--if I were a lawyer.

Money, money, money.

Hell, with the right case, after the courts got through with it, the kid might not even need to go to college.

Julie
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #19 on: July 05, 2007, 08:56:33 AM »
Quote from: ""Guest""
Our kid (elementary age) had a nightmare principal this year. There is no telling what the b*tch put in her file. Considering the outright dishonesty we caught the woman in, and her maliciousness, I wouldn't put it past her to have made up stuff out of whole cloth. Katie didn't have any disciplinary events beyond a teacher's "don't do that", and never has, but I still wouldn't have put it past that woman to have just made stuff up.

In case you couldn't tell, my husband and I have a very low opinion of her--with a pretty harsh paper trail against the school to back up why.

Getting a copy of all the records is one of the "to do's" on our list, and for other related issues we've already talked to lawyers. It was that bad. I never ran into anything anywhere near that when I was going through school, and I didn't exactly have an easy childhood.

From stories I heard from a few friends in college about principals they'd had--I remember one charmer that actually kept gossip and blackmail files on all the kids in his school--I expect a lot of lawsuits with merit.

The Vice Principal above sounds ultra ethical, but not all administrators share that trait.

As I said, I'd love to be a trial lawyer for the plaintiffs in some of these cases--if I were a lawyer.

Money, money, money.

Hell, with the right case, after the courts got through with it, the kid might not even need to go to college.

Julie


     Thank you for the compliment Julie-I like to think I'm ethical-but that doesn't mean I'm a pushover-I do what I have to do.  Sending a kid to a program certainly isn't one of them!  I can't believe some of the things I've read in the last two weeks or so.

     As far as getting kid's records-you have an absolute right to them, as does your kid if he/she is 18.  Just ask, if that doesn't work-demand them!  You may have to pay for the copies, but in my case, I just ask my secretary to Xerox them and GIVE them to the requesting parent.  If they want to talk about them, I'm always willing to do so.  But I won't remove any referral form that has been properly entered and shown to be true.  Fighting, class cuts, insubordination (refusing to follow legitimate instructions from a staff member), leaving school property (we are responsible, remember) or vandalism-why should they be removed?  Each referral is signed by the staff member witnessing the behavior, and then signed by ME when I assess the consequence.  They are also timed and dated.  Could we be sued?  Probably, but I've refused several requests from irate parents whose little darlings NEVER do anything wrong.

     By the way, to the person who thinks I was his former principal-unless you're located on the Jersey Shore, it's unlikely.  Especially since Carter is my first name, not my surname.  But it's a nice thought, and you must have gotten along with him since you didn't curse me out-so you can't have caused that much trouble.  Especially not enough to deserve whatever it is you went through.  What's funny is I actually get along better with some of my more troubled students-they come to my office just to talk when they feel about to blow.  I can always find a few minutes for them to come in and cool down.  Some of the teachers think I'm too easy and not punitive enough in those cases but tough!  I'm there for the kids first and them second.

Carter
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #20 on: July 05, 2007, 12:10:13 PM »
Coach Carter Dat you holmes??
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Offline Covergaard

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« Reply #21 on: July 07, 2007, 02:20:26 AM »
If I forget to take my knife out of the pocket (I use one at my work to cut wires.) before I goes into town, I could end up in jail, if I enter one of our body search zones made by the police.

They are typically places in the city centers near discos and bars. In side these zones the police can search everybody they like without reason.

The reason for for suchs zone are that the high part of the relatively few murders (About 50-75 homicides per year.) are done in such environments.

In relationship with schools I find expulsion and suspension damanging for the child and also for the local neighborhood, because the children are often hanging around in the streets during the period.

In Denmark we are discussing a day-treatment program, which aims at keeping the children in school at all cost. Here is a link to the proposed program: The RRN-program.

We have to ask ourselves. What if a parent had committed the specific rule-violation? What would the punishment be?
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Offline Karass

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« Reply #22 on: July 07, 2007, 03:01:52 PM »
Quote from: ""Covergaard""
What if a parent had committed the specific rule-violation? What would the punishment be?


The laws regarding prohibitions in school zones or "school safety zones" apply to everyone. If I have a pack of cigarettes in my car when I drive my kid to school, I have committed a petty offense as soon as my car enters that zone. If I have a weapon in my car -- like my butane lighter or any sort of blade, I have committed a much more serious offense.

The concept of extra penalties within school zones has gotten way out of hand in some U.S. communities, and some of the more ridiculous cases have been challenged in court. By "ridiculous," I mean cases where the laws are such that nearly the entire town falls within one school zone or another -- where, for example, a person could be arrested for smoking pot in his own home, and be facing much stiffer penalties because his home happens to be within 1000 feet of the nearest school or public park.

What started as a concept of keeping schools safer has, in some communities, become an excuse for making the penalties for drug or weapons violations much stiffer for the entire community.
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Like its politicians and its wars, society has the teenagers it deserves. -- J.B. Priestley

Offline hanzomon4

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« Reply #23 on: July 07, 2007, 08:46:38 PM »
‘I Love Alex’ earns girl 4-month suspension
The Associated Press

KATY, Texas - Writing “I love Alex” on a school gymnasium wall brought a 12-year-old the same punishment as if she had made terrorist threats.

The Katy Independent School District rated the message, written with a baby blue marker by sixth-grader Shelby Sendelbach, as a Level 4 infraction — the same as for threats, drug possession and assault.

Only murder, gun possession, sexual assault and arson are considered more severe by the suburban Houston district.

For her punishment, Shelby was assigned to an alternative school from Aug. 27 through Dec. 21.

Just following the rules
School district spokesman Steve Stanford said the district was just following a state law, saying it requires assignment to an alternative school for graffiti.

Her parents have appealed and a hearing is set for this month. Lisa and Stu Sendelbach said they don’t condone what Shelby did but think the punishment is overly harsh.

“We are shocked that the school district rules as they are written make no distinction between what Shelby is accused of and what a gang member does with a can of black spray paint,” Stu Sendelbach said.
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i]Do something real, however, small. And don\'t-- don\'t diss the political things, but understand their limitations - Grace Lee Boggs[/i]
I do see the present and the future of our children as very dark. But I trust the people\'s capacity for reflection, rage, and rebellion - Oscar Olivera

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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #24 on: July 07, 2007, 09:08:40 PM »
That's because the assholes running the school districts think they are their own personal government, and have a slew of lawyers to threaten parents.  As I said in either this post or another, (paraphrasing myself, ha ha) "the school district sent me a letter telling me that they would be charging me $35.00 for each day my daughter missed that wasn't an "excused" absence".  Screw the school district!
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #25 on: July 12, 2007, 11:06:08 PM »
Has anyone considered just how intolerant the baby-boomer generation is?  Give em some drugs to lighten up!  Those anti-depressants mom and dad are on are worthless.  Some ginja would be way better as a mood enhancer.  Put on some Eagles.  ROlling Stones.  Maybe they will remember how to rock and roll?  Recapture their own youth?

 :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:
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« Reply #26 on: July 12, 2007, 11:22:04 PM »
Quote from: ""hanzomon4""
‘I Love Alex’ earns girl 4-month suspension
The Associated Press

KATY, Texas - Writing “I love Alex” on a school gymnasium wall brought a 12-year-old the same punishment as if she had made terrorist threats.

The Katy Independent School District rated the message, written with a baby blue marker by sixth-grader Shelby Sendelbach, as a Level 4 infraction — the same as for threats, drug possession and assault.

Only murder, gun possession, sexual assault and arson are considered more severe by the suburban Houston district.

For her punishment, Shelby was assigned to an alternative school from Aug. 27 through Dec. 21.

Just following the rules
School district spokesman Steve Stanford said the district was just following a state law, saying it requires assignment to an alternative school for graffiti.

Her parents have appealed and a hearing is set for this month. Lisa and Stu Sendelbach said they don’t condone what Shelby did but think the punishment is overly harsh.

“We are shocked that the school district rules as they are written make no distinction between what Shelby is accused of and what a gang member does with a can of black spray paint,” Stu Sendelbach said.


That is crazy.  Whatever happend to making people wash the walls?  Its getting out of hand.
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eople, even more than things, have to be restored, renewed, revived, reclaimed, and redeemed; never throw out anyone. Remember, if you ever need a helping hand, you will find one at the end of each of your arms.  As you grow older, you will discover that you have two hands; one for helping yourself, and the other for helping others. -Audrey Hepburn

Offline BuzzKill

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« Reply #27 on: July 13, 2007, 11:36:03 AM »
Quote from: ""Guest""
That's because the assholes running the school districts think they are their own personal government, and have a slew of lawyers to threaten parents.  As I said in either this post or another, (paraphrasing myself, ha ha) "the school district sent me a letter telling me that they would be charging me $35.00 for each day my daughter missed that wasn't an "excused" absence".  Screw the school district!



I had something similar occur. A school counselor once told me I had best withdraw my troublesome daughter from school; b/c the state had a law that would fine me 250.00 for each cutting episode and there was also a risk of jail time if I didn't get her in school everyday.

There is a law that will jail parents for their child's truancy - but it wouldn't be applied to a parent who had done everything possible to enforce school attendance.

The fine was totally bogus. The bitch was just trying to intimidate me into pulling my child from school so she wouldn't have to deal with her.  I called the state capitol's legislative research department, and they could find no such law. I spoke with the state department of education and they knew of no such law. I called a couple branches of media, and ask if anyone there knew about any such law - on the books or being debated - and the answer was no.

So, I had the satisfaction of sitting across from this lazy, conniving bitch, and justifiably calling her a liar, in front of the school vice principal, several teachers, a parent advocate and my daughter's therapist. It was most gratifying.

My son was also once expelled for graffiti. On the last day of school; the very day his grand pa died; he got caught tagging the bath room wall. I fought that as well, arguing common sense for the most part, and did manage to get him reinstated - but it was no easy feat; and the fact is, it never should have been such a major issue.
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Offline hanzomon4

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« Reply #28 on: July 14, 2007, 12:58:29 AM »
And can't being labeled a truant get a kid locked up in a state run program?
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i]Do something real, however, small. And don\'t-- don\'t diss the political things, but understand their limitations - Grace Lee Boggs[/i]
I do see the present and the future of our children as very dark. But I trust the people\'s capacity for reflection, rage, and rebellion - Oscar Olivera

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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #29 on: July 14, 2007, 09:27:43 AM »
Quote
The bitch was just trying to intimidate me into pulling my child from school


And you would want your kid in this system because...  :-?  :question:
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