Author Topic: Shut Down the Industry by Removing the Nuts  (Read 2492 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline anonymaster

  • Posts: 2
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Shut Down the Industry by Removing the Nuts
« on: June 11, 2007, 06:30:46 PM »
I work in the troubled teen industry. In fact, I help parents find placement in treatment programs. I won't try to convince anyone here that I'm "different" from the others with whom I work, but I will provide some simple ammo ...

Do you want to shut us down? The Democrats are back. Remember them? They're the folks interested in the rights of the downtrodden. Moreover, huge contributors to the Republican movement of the past decade have come from the corporate monsters of the troubled teen industry ...

The time has come: There should, at the very least, be local restrictions, mandated by Federal regulations, upon the transport of minors across state lines against their will. I will attest to the fact that parents, often with their own psychological problems, are the only authority being consulted when kids are kidnapped and taken against their will to other parts of the country.

Nobody in this forum will argue against the fact that this is kidnapping. Proponents of the industry will say it's necessary. I say it is not. I believe that if a child's issues are so severe that he/she cannot make the decision to travel on his/her own to a treatment facility, that proper evaluation of the situation should be made by an independent third party at the home site ... a social worker ... an officer ... someone ... anyone but the parents alone.

This should be law. It now can be. The blow to the "industry" would be sudden and painful. The schools would actually have to start working "with" local therapy and community resources, rather than bypassing them, to determine whether or not a program is necessary - and a forced transport is proper and legal.

Of course, headcount in the facilities would plummet. But, ironically, in my opinion it should. There should never be an emotionally charged placement, driven by overly aggressive telemarketers, who succeed in sending in paratrooper transporters who swoop in, snag the kid, and make off into the night with them. It just shouldn't happen.

This industry relies upon transporters. Make it illegal for them to do their work with the ease at which they currently do it, and things will change dramatically. Kids who really need help will still get it. Schools that are reputable will survive. But proper regulation of child trafficking - oops, did I call it that? - will take place.

If the marketers (in-house marketers, head hunters, and ed cons included) are the mechanics behind the machine, making this all work, then take away one of their tools. Take away the nuts that call themselves transporters, and you'll successfully throw a wrench into the machine.

The Democrats will do this. Talk to your representative. Go to the center of the machine, and remove a nut. Watch what happens.[/b]
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
quot;That devilish Iron Horse ... has muddied the Boiling Spring with his foot ... that Trojan horse, with a thousand men in his belly, introduced by mercenary Greeks!\"

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
Shut Down the Industry by Removing the Nuts
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2007, 07:08:33 PM »
Most program parents are democrats.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
Argument against that theory
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2007, 07:20:54 PM »
I would argue that most program parents are Republicans. Any way we can have kids vote on what their parent's political leanings are to get an idea of the true scenario on this? This would be an interesting survey.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline psy

  • Administrator
  • Newbie
  • *****
  • Posts: 5606
  • Karma: +2/-0
    • View Profile
    • http://homepage.mac.com/psyborgue/
Shut Down the Industry by Removing the Nuts
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2007, 07:47:07 PM »
I don't think it really matters.  However, If this issue can be used as a bludgeon by the Democrats, all it will take is for somebody to convince them of it's usefulness.  I wouldn't expect major change though.  All I expect over the next few years is for the industry to change who they "donate" to.  You don't bribe those who aren't in power.  I really don't think any political party gives a damn about the rights of the downtrodden as much as they pretend to.

Now.  A presidential race...  Hypothetically, if Romney gets the nomination, this issue would be a major weak-spot (association with Lichfield).  The question is whether anything real would be accomplished, or just political posturing.  A presidential race is not the time to get anything real done, and few politicians actually honor their campaign promises.  The public at large is fickle and absent-minded.

I aggree with "anonymaster" in principle, and I think I know who he is.  Odd that he would care.  But hey.  A Trojan horse signature should normally make me wary, but his logic is sound.  This is the problem:  When such a bill hits the floor of the house or senate, lobbyists will be scrambling to kill it.  Perhaps such transport regulations can be hidden in some other piece of legislature... such as a defense bill. (ever seen "Amazing Grace"?)

@anonymaster:

It is rare I get the opportunity to ask an educational consultant (i assume) frank questions...  But here goes:

What steps do you go to to ensure what you are being shown on a tour of a school is not simply a ruse?

re: industry self regulation: what part of the industry is supposed to do the regulating?  If you hear reports of abuse, do you listen to the evidence and make decisions not to refer, or do you wait for criminal charges/ambulances?

"Reputable" is often a temporary status awarded to new programs.  How many "reputable" programs are there that have been open for ... say 20+ years?  Does the lack of allegations simply mean the kids haven't come forward yet?  This seems to have been the pattern in the past.

Do you consider the cultic origins of programs to be a bad thing, or do you consider such things as EST, Lifespring, and Synanon, to be mis-interpreted innovative new ideas?

Anyway.  I'd appreciate it if you could at least give a shot at answering those questions.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Benchmark Young Adult School - bad place [archive.org link]
Sue Scheff Truth - Blog on Sue Scheff
"Our services are free; we do not make a profit. Parents of troubled teens ourselves, PURE strives to create a safe haven of truth and reality." - Sue Scheff - August 13th, 2007 (fukkin surreal)

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
Re: Shut Down the Industry by Removing the Nuts
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2007, 08:24:35 PM »
b-shit filter:

Quote from: ""anonymaster""
Do you want to shut us down?

....

Talk to your representative.



 :roll:  :rofl:
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline anonymaster

  • Posts: 2
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Shut Down the Industry by Removing the Nuts
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2007, 05:22:22 AM »
Psy, your skepticism is well-founded. Neither party really tries to do anything more than one-up the other. However, I do believe there is a fundamental violation of rights taking place via forced youth transports akin to the manipulation of children in old-style sweathouses. But instead of textile moguls making fortunes off of children, it's a somewhat more sophisticated process - still violating child rights - but in a way that too many feel is "acceptable."

Your questions for me are also well-founded. In reality I don't consider myself an ed con, though I am actually called by that title now and then. I actually promote local therapists who are "not" ed cons to any clients who come to me. I promote a form of intervention that angers both educational consultants and most treatment programs. ALL intervention should begin, and if possible, END locally. Ed cons should be kept out of the picture completely - there is no need for them if therapists can be both employed, and properly educated and warned regarding the private treatment care industry.

Most licensed therapists already have a wary view of residential treatment, having been exposed to it in one manner or another during their journey to licensure. And although most understand, theoretically, why pulling a child out of the home environment and wisping him/her across the country is normally more detrimental than helpful, few understand the real and documented dangers and deceptions of the treatment care industry.

As a side-note here, I am so despised by some of the ed cons and headhunters who know who I am, and what I am doing, that the schools who dare work with me are incessantly warned not to maintain a relationship with me, as by so doing they will earn the wrath of industry insiders - bad press, they say.

What aggravates them? I explain to every one of my clients that they should NOT ever make nor consider placement in a treatment program unless they 1) are working with a local therapist who has completely evaluated the situation before placement, 2) are not working with either an ed con or a headhunter, 3) receive agreement from the program to pay for at least two months of aftercare therapy, and 4) receive agreement from the program to allow the local therapist to maintain constant and unrestrained contact with the child as a local advocate for both the child and the family.

What do I do? That's a bit more complicated, and explaining everything would force me to compromise my anonymity. Basically, I help the therapists understand how to be quarterbacks for their clients - how to scrutinize, manage, and understand the dynamics of how private treatment programs run, what their weaknesses are, how to identify possible/probable violation of rights, etc., in addition to pulling ultimate control out of the program's hands, and placing it in the hands of the "local" treatment team, including the parents, the therapist, and any other locals, such as teachers and school counselors.

Most programs flatly refuse this arrangement. They want to be untouchable and independent of the home environment. This, quite simply, is how I determine what programs I will work with. Length of time in existence is irrelevant. Some of the worst programs in existence, which are normally the most rigid, are those that have been around for far too many years, and perhaps ought to die. Their strength comes from market presence, not therapeutic quality. On the flip-side, some of the better programs I've seen are fairly new, though quite often poorly funded.

I'm as apt to warn about the dangers of poorly funded programs as I am any of the other dangers. The value of new programs is that they're more prone to allow my (and a local therapist's) external influence upon their processes, and will cater to the local needs of their client families. Yet, when programs are new, if they don't have adequate resources, the financial drain directly translates to lower quality of care.

Ed cons pride themselves on knowing hundreds of programs, and being able to refer to "just the right few." I challenge that arrogance. I've been a transitional director and an executive director, and I know from first-hand experience just how difficult it is to properly manage, monitor, and comprehend the dynamics of a program in which I am working. I know a good program can go sour instantly, with a single staff member who is an idiot. I know that a poor therapist can become enmeshed and detrimental to treatment. I know that improperly mixed students with differing referral issues can cause terrible and often dangerous dynamics among the peer group. How can ed cons possibly comprehend the effective dynamics of hundreds of programs?

They can't. It's that simple. And it's unethical to shrug off the responsibility to know the dangers of every single one of their preferred programs.

I work with a small handful of programs at a time (no more than seven). If I don't have a program for someone who wants residential services beyond those with which I'm working, I tell them my limitation. Period. If they're hell-bent on finding someone else to help place their child, they can step beyond what I'll suggest, but before they do, they're warned. Residential care is NOT always the logical next step. Often patience, relationship building, and resource discovery in the home environment is the logical next step - even when that next step isn't immediately visible.

When it comes right down to it, it doesn't matter what care beyond the home is employed. The child will still need to succeed at home, sooner or later - and will need to choose to succeed him/herself. If residential care can be completely avoided, and solutions still found, the likelihood of long-term recovery is MORE likely.

Therapists know I'm right. I've seen how the overwhelming majority of kids in private residential care simply don't belong there - how they could have, and should have been helped at home - how family "reunification" would have never been necessary if someone had focused upon family "unification."

I believe, from the core of everything I am, that the insane growth of the private residential care industry is out of control. It should be shrinking, not growing. Obviously the law isn't going to make the change. So the market has to do it. However, there are still weak points in the process that could be exploited legally.

If someone, somehow, could motivate either legislative or judicial change to recognize the rights of minors, and keep kids, via federal mandate, from being transported across state lines without some form of due process, it would cripple the industry. It would strip it of its fat, and would force it to evolve in a less independent fashion.

The allies here, ironically, may one day be organizations such as the CAMFT and the AAMFT. Massive therapeutic organizations, with a wealth of political might, if properly mobilized, could make the difference. Whenever I sit down with a therapist and explain the multi-million dollar marketing machine that hovers just above them, plucking kids out of their geographic areas without their consultation, I actually see the sting of irritation in their eyes. I have not once had one of these people disagree with my assertion that there needs to be change. And one by one, I'm employing them.

But this move needs to be rapid. Aspen is pretty aggressive at seeking alliances with doctors and therapists to get referrals into their programs. Nonetheless, as massive as they are, they don't have grass-roots mentality. They go after bigger fish. I go after the little guys.

I compete with the big players in the industry, head to head, and they don't even know it. I look like they do. I market the way they do. I bring in clients just as they do ... But then I direct my clients back to their home markets, rather than into residential care. If residential care becomes necessary I'm willing and able to help. But this is where I completely differ from ed cons - I talk far more people out of residential treatment than I place.

Okay, I'm sorry ... I haven't answered some of your other questions ...

-- Tours of Schools -- They're always a ruse. They put on the best show possible, always. A tour alone cannot educate anyone on the quality of the school. I require every school with which I work to undergo workshops that "I" provide to their staff members. I ask them questions that help me identify what kind of managerial and therapeutic culture actualy exists functionally. But more importantly, I don't EVER tell parents or therapists to rely upon my perspectives alone ... Every step of the way, if they interview and place with the school, they with their therapist should monitor the process of care and change. Full cooperation of the school is required. A single complaint from one of the therapists regarding treatment of either the child, or cooperation with their advocacy, will result in my pulling away from the school.

-- Industry Self-Regulation -- Related to what I wrote above, I don't wait for criminal complaints. Simple failure to cooperate, communicate, or otherwise function properly with the local treatment team causes the loss of my support. Some people wait for a court of law to define their opinions ... I find the court of public opinion to be far more dynamic, and often more just. I can't regulate the entire industry. But I can sure-as-hell influence my little corner of it.

-- Reputable Programs -- Although I seem to be a skeptic, I believe that people in general are good ... But that's not good enough. "Seasoned" programs are often so well entrenched in the market that they don't have to change, improve, nor respond to complaints and market demands at all. They can abuse, neglect, and otherwise completely screw up treatment, and they're not going to hurt for it at all. Newer programs can't provide a track record, though their staff and founders can be drawn into the rigors of record-building - reputation-construction, if you will. If they're teachable, and their program can be shaped to actually respond to the "intrusive" nature of outside therapeutic advocates (not ed cons), they are far more "reputable" than seasoned programs. Is it a crap shoot in a way? Yep. But with proper, continuous monitoring (normally not allowed by market-established programs), whatever "earned" reputation is gained, is gained through actual work and relationships, rather than "time in business," be it short or long.

-- Cultish Origins -- I'm guessing you've been exposed to some of this stuff. I'm new with fornits, so I haven't had the opportunity to read anything else you've written. But in this area specifically I am deeply concerned with some of the truly bizarre practices, processes, and instruments of change being employed by many programs. Just as wilderness programs were originally formed without therapeutic oversight, some current treatment programs are adopting training processes that depart from sound therapy, and border upon bullshit.

Emotional Growth seminars, for instance, are in my opinion, garbage. I don't care how much crying has taken place, nor how many pages have been torn out of the book of torment (or whatever the hell they call it), it's not therapy. Its intrusion into a therapeutic environment is as unethical, I believe, as if radical religious brainwashing were employed to manipulate vulnerable students into new age elysium.

I'm pretty simple, on the surface, when it comes to what I expect of treatment. I am a student of systems theory. Everything I practice and teach leans back toward systemic principles. From the proper management of a treatment program, to the deference to the family system to diagnose and bring resolution to problems hidden behind a child's smptoms, I am an advocate of pushing solutions into the home, and ultimately to the individual.

There is far more strength in these kids than most people in my industry realize - though they often fear rather than employ their power - Helping kids to discover their strength and ability to change (without treatment, if possible), is the surest way to long-term success ... In fact, it's the ONLY way to long-term success, whether or not residential treatment is ever employed.

Okay. Sorry so long. I hope I haven't broken any rules by writing a book. Anyway, Psy, does this answer your questions? I still believe that if the process of transporting kids against their will, across state lines, were to come under attack, it would change the industry.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
quot;That devilish Iron Horse ... has muddied the Boiling Spring with his foot ... that Trojan horse, with a thousand men in his belly, introduced by mercenary Greeks!\"

Offline Bunnie

  • Posts: 91
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
interstate compact agreement
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2007, 05:59:02 AM »
well here friends is one law that may help on this
INTERSTATE COMPACT ON THE PLACEMENT OF CHILDREN
The Interstate Compact on the Placement of Children is statutory law in all 50 states, the District of
Columbia, and the Virgin Islands. Developed in 1974, the compact was designed to ensure protection and
services to children placed across state lines. The compact is a binding contract between member
Jurisdictions and establishes uniform legal and administrative procedures governing the interstate
placement of children. Interstate Compact law applies when private adoptions occur across state lines. It
also applies to private parent placements of children in residential treatment facilities, group homes, andother licensed facilities. State agencies and courts must also comply with Compact law when placing,
their wards in treatment facilities, in foster homes or with the child's relatives who live in another state.
For additional information contact the Nebraska HHS deputy compact administrator at 402-471-9254. For
adoption related compact questions, contact the adoption specialist at 402-471-9331. The ICPC office fax
number is 402-471-9034. Information about ICPC offices in other states can be accessed at
http://icpc.aphsa.org

Heck yeah they are breaking Federal Law, cause they have to fill forms out ect.  Why are they getting away with this. :exclaim:
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
Shut Down the Industry by Removing the Nuts
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2007, 11:50:05 AM »
Quote
I still believe that if the process of transporting kids against their will, across state lines, were to come under attack, it would change the industry.


So little substance for such a long post.
Lots of I, I, I type of opining but not much else.
This person's great plan is to contact your congressman, as if this is a new idea?
This must be a troll or a joke or something.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline psy

  • Administrator
  • Newbie
  • *****
  • Posts: 5606
  • Karma: +2/-0
    • View Profile
    • http://homepage.mac.com/psyborgue/
Shut Down the Industry by Removing the Nuts
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2007, 04:01:44 AM »
Quote from: ""anonymaster""
Psy, does this answer your questions?


So.  You're not an educational consultant although people sometimes call you one?  But you do refer to programs.  Which ones?  I don't think naming programs would compromise your identity.

You seem to have a lot of lofty goals, but ultimately, how is anybody supposed to trust you?  There are no regulations prohibiting you from taking compensation from programs, so who is to say you are telling the truth?  You can say "i do this, and I do that" but who is to say it is true... or if it is, if your measures are effective in preventing abuse.

You say "A single complaint from one of the therapists regarding treatment of either the child, or cooperation with their advocacy, will result in my pulling away from the school. "  So you rely on complaints from the employees of the school???  You rely on the children being able to communicate the abuse as it happens?  What about stories from kids who come out of the programs?  I've been in program.  I know how easy it is to manipulate outsiders (and the children themselves) when you completely control or monitor communication (and there are many, both direct and indirect ways of doing that).  Even if you are providing expertise to local therapists on what to look for, they are not infallible, and neither are you.

You seem to understand a lot about the industry in general, but to me, it seems like you are overconfident in your ability to effectively monitor a program.  It takes approximately four straight hours of Q&A for me to explain how the particular program I was in fooled outsiders, manipulated parents, and destroyed lives without getting caught.  I would never, ever, have understood how it worked (or believed it did) had I not been there and experienced it first hand.  From the point of view of someone studying the system of it, it's absolutely brilliant.  You say you study systems theory (it's how I see things as well) and create safeguards, workshops, etc.  Great.  You see things from a social engineer/programmer's perspective.  Who is to say that your system has no flaws (as no system is without it's loopholes).  I can sympathize.  You think you design the perfect system only to later find out there are loopholes here and there that people are exploiting like crazy. All it takes is creativity and time.  With what is at stake, how can you take the risk of being wrong?  I certainly wouldn't be willing to take the risk.

I agree with you on the Emotional growth seminars, and that was part of what I was referring to when I mentioned "cultish origins"; however I was also referring to Synanon's influence into the type of "group therapy" so often practiced in program (very confrontational).

A few more questions in addition to the above if you don't mind:

What if a kid doesn't want placement or help?

What are some "warning signs" you would look for in programs?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
Benchmark Young Adult School - bad place [archive.org link]
Sue Scheff Truth - Blog on Sue Scheff
"Our services are free; we do not make a profit. Parents of troubled teens ourselves, PURE strives to create a safe haven of truth and reality." - Sue Scheff - August 13th, 2007 (fukkin surreal)

Offline Anonymous

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 164653
  • Karma: +3/-4
    • View Profile
Shut Down the Industry by Removing the Nuts
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2007, 02:05:45 PM »
This comes from both sides of the aisle.  The Dems like programs because they're considered an "alternative" method.  They don't bother to investigate what they actually do[/b], they just see it as a quick fix and an "alternative" (kinder and gentler alternative) to jail.

The Repugnants like it because they're all for the "get tough on crime" approach.  They really like the bootcamp style programs though.  Dems seem to go for the more psychologically torturous ones.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Deborah

  • Posts: 5383
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • View Profile
Re: interstate compact agreement
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2007, 12:42:01 PM »
Quote from: ""Bunny""
well here friends is one law that may help on this
INTERSTATE COMPACT ON THE PLACEMENT OF CHILDREN
The Interstate Compact on the Placement of Children is statutory law in all 50 states, the District of Columbia, and the Virgin Islands. Developed in 1974, the compact was designed to ensure protection and services to children placed across state lines. The compact is a binding contract between member Jurisdictions and establishes uniform legal and administrative procedures governing the interstate placement of children. Interstate Compact law applies when private adoptions occur across state lines. It also applies to private parent placements of children in residential treatment facilities, group homes, andother licensed facilities. State agencies and courts must also comply with Compact law when placing, their wards in treatment facilities, in foster homes or with the child's relatives who live in another state.
For additional information contact the Nebraska HHS deputy compact administrator at 402-471-9254. For adoption related compact questions, contact the adoption specialist at 402-471-9331. The ICPC office fax
number is 402-471-9034. Information about ICPC offices in other states can be accessed at
http://icpc.aphsa.org

Heck yeah they are breaking Federal Law, cause they have to fill forms out ect.  Why are they getting away with this. :exclaim:


Hi Bunny,
While the ICPC did apply to all programs:
http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=55663#55663

It no longer applies to private programs, thanks to the industry:
http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.ph ... 097#266097
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
gt;>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Hidden Lake Academy, after operating 12 years unlicensed will now be monitored by the state. Access information on the Federal Class Action lawsuit against HLA here: http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=17700