Bringing TB to the UK or vice versa?

[Covergaard]

I think parents should take their kids to AA meetings starting when the kids is very young. It really is never too early to prevent your child from becoming an alcoholic or drug addict. The disease runs in familes, so if parents are alcoholics the child should be expected, and taught that they will also be an alcoholic/addict when they grow up. They should become comfortable with the 12 steps at a young age. It's never too early.

If the disease runs in the family, it is time for the parents to clean up their act. The most horrifying details about children are that they are equipped with eyes and ears. They are able to copy all they see in their role models - us parents. So my children don't exactly need to see me drunk (If you can manage to ly down on the floor without grapping firmly in the carpet, you are not really drunk).

However, the children can look for other role models, if the parents are not present due to work conditions or other interests. In the first case it is unfortunate, in the other case it is irresponsible. Is Paris Hilton a better role model than you or Ozzy Osbourne?

You prevent them from additions by joining them in their activity. If they watch TV all time, sit down next to them and chew something noisy. Beat them in their videogame. Show up once in a while at the disco, if their party lifestyle take a toe on daily life. If they watch porn, comment the artificial setup in with monotonous vocal pitch and take a cold shower afterward if such a sight cause a problem. Be with them and you will solve 90 percent of the problems.

But if you as a parent has an addiction, clean up today rather than tomorrow.

[Oz girl]

I think parents should take their kids to AA meetings starting when the kids is very young. It really is never too early to prevent your child from becoming an alcoholic or drug addict. The disease runs in familes, so if parents are alcoholics the child should be expected, and taught that they will also be an alcoholic/addict when they grow up. They should become comfortable with the 12 steps at a young age. It's never too early.

 :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:

Why not just model responsible drinking in the first place! Nobody says it is never too early to teach children about sex so when they are 7 have them watch some porn!
If uncle freddy the wino cant attend a BBQ without getting on the sauce from 10am then keep liquor out of the house when he comes to visit and quietly explain to the kids why. When kids hit the age that they are likely to drink talk about it alot and set some ground rules. When they come of age take them to a wine appreciation class or some such so that they can learn to apprciate it in moderation. I would imagine taking kids of any age to a 12 step programme whrn they have displayed no signs of alcoholism or addiction is a great way to destroy their inncoence and expose them to adults who you dont now.

[Karass]

Let me better clarify "rules".  

Kids want structure in their home lives, not chaos caused by out of control parents.  Rules are part of a structured home life.  Curfews being the one rule that most often comes to mind.  Instead of obeying their curfew on Friday night, the kid parties into the wee hours with his friends and pays the consequences later.  That's the way it worked in my youth.  I looked forward to dinner with my folks and then sneaking out to party with my buds after I did my homework and any chores I had to do.  I knew I was breaking "the rules" but hell, a kid's gotta do what he's gotta do.  Somehow I made it through adolescence without driving my parents over the edge or ending up in one of these hellhole programs.  Guess I just knew how to play the game without tripping the wire, I don't know.  But rules (structure) as opposed to chaos caused by out of control demanding bully drug abusing parents or worse, indifference caused by parents who are not involved in their child's lives,  is what kids need and want in my experience. I'm probably not expressing my opinion very well, maybe someone else can explain what I mean?

I agree with you about structure & rules. My 'problem kid' has, at times, reminded us that he needs structure, he needs boundaries, he needs consistency and he wants "parents," not older "friends." Great, wonderful. That's what we have tried to do for over 17 years. Sure, teens need to cross some of the lines at times and find their own way and all that. We were teens too, and we thought we understood how to balance that structure, rules and consequences with a fair amount of common sense when it comes to "teens will be teens" kinds of things.

But we made a lot of mistakes, and in so many cases we aren't sure what we should've done differently. We have tried lots of different parenting strategies. Heart-to-heart talks, getting more involved in his life, getting less involved in his life (giving him his space), trying to force some responsibility on him, trying to let him just be his own person and make his own mistakes -- you name it, we tried it. So-called "experts" were no help at all. I've got my own friggin' library of parenting books, self-help books, substance abuse recovery books and mental health books. I've got files full of receipts from all the therapists, community-based programs, etc. that he's tried over the last few years. Other parents, our friends, were not much help either because they had no similar frame of reference, either in their own teenage past or in their own kids' behavior.

You said when you were a teen you "knew how to play the game without tripping the wire." I can relate to that. So what do you do with a kid who constantly goes out of his way to find that wire and then trip it just for the sake of tripping it? How do you parent a kid who says he wants structure and boundaries and "parents who parent," but then takes every opportunity to demonstrate that no boundaries are acceptable to him and that he will do everything in his power to dismantle any semblance of structure and order in his life? Oh yeah, add to that a couple of serious mental health disorders -- repeatedly diagnosed and treated over the years by various professionals.

Keep in mind this is a kid who has two teen siblings that are happy, well-adjusted kids (to the extent that is possible during adolescence!), who were raised in the same household by the same biological parents, still happily married after all these years, using the same parenting approaches. They would constantly ask what was the deal with their brother, why did we let him get away with certain things, what were we going to do about it and so on. We never had any good answers for them, for him or for ourselves. We are not "out of control demanding bully drug abusing parents," but we do have past experiences with drugs and we are moderate social drinkers. We are definitely not indifferent or uninvolved in our children's lives. We are not perfect parents -- if there is such a thing -- and we are not uneducated or incompetent. We are human, doing the best we can with the best intentions and the best information available to us.  

Things had reached an all-time low just prior to us getting sucked into this shitty Troubled Teen industry. Life is a lot better now, but by no means perfectly happy and trouble-free. I don't necessarily credit the program with anything in particular -- he got to where he is today because he wanted to, because he did the hard work. I wish we hadn't felt compelled to do it, but given where things are today, I don't entirely regret the decision.

Let the flames begin.

[Anonymous]

I think you articulate the dichotomy of the teenage mind well. The tripwire needs to be tripped because it exists. Kind of like lighting a fire simply to watch it burn.

[Deborah]

So... given what you know and have experienced...  how would you advise a parent in a similar situation?
In hindsight, what did the program do that you couldn't do at home?
What valuable, secret method do they use to 'change' kids?

There may be other causes, but I think the kid who is pushing hard for 'boundaries', is scared. They need someone who'll provide a little resistent to their pushing, whether that be mental jousting or actual physical sparing. I believe they are testing their parents to see what their made of, if you have what it takes to stick out the worst with them. Parents should go to counseling for themselves, so they can come back and be fully present for their kids and not bolt in terror when put to the test.

Some kids can just ignore the insanity around them. Petty rules, enforced boredom of school, the destruction of the environment, social injustices and war, and just fit into the narrow and highly restricted role society has created for them. Others can't. They want more. To be visible, to feel worthwhile, not to be coddled or minimized, to be heard and respected, to make a real and meaningful contribution. One's 'problem' child may actually be the deep thinker of the bunch, more keenly aware than their peers or siblings, but with no one to talk to and relate.

The irony, is how parents unawarely inhibit their kids development, while expecting them to act mature. There's a lot of bad parenting advice out there.

Kids need to be allowed to learn how to care for themselves, how to contribute to their household and larger community. They sh0uld be 'allowed' to pick their clothes and dress themselves when they are capable of doing so. 'Allowed' to participate in a rotating chore chart with the rest of the family from 2-2.5, on. They sh0uld be 'allowed' to do their own laundry by 12, anyway. How are kids going to learn this if mom and dad have a maid and don't even clean? "Entitlement" isn't a mental disorder, it's a learned behavior. They sh0uld be 'allowed' to cook as soon as they can reach the stove, and prepare dinner for the family on a regular basis. When I think of my kids serving the meal they prepared and the pride and self-respect that shone on their face, it still brings tears.  These practical and seemingly simple tasks of development are how children learn how to function in a family unit and the world at large.  When you 'allow' them to develop to the fullest of their ability, you are demonstrating respect and will receive respect in return. When you do for someone what they can do themselves, you create an invalid. There's far too much 'curling' going on.

That's what I love about Montessori. Her method came about by watching children who were left to fein for themselves out of nessessity during an economic depression. Kids are resourceful and capable, when given the opportunity. The problem in this society is that they are seen as commodities. Their only value is how they will be conditioned to contribute to the GNP. Someone else would have to speak to this, but it's as if many parents raise thier kids as if they were royalty, then resent their displays of entitlement. What a disservice. Is the thinking that rescuing them from 'domestic' chores will propell their careers? Who needs to cook when you can hire it done. Is it more desirable to focus on mastering making money and the real tasks of self-care can't be bought?

[Karass]

Thanks Deborah for that very insightful post.

To answer your questions, the WC didn't really do anything for him that couldn't have been done in another way, although I doubt it could've been done at home. Hell, he probably could've achieved the same thing if he had spent the summer working on a fishing trawler off the coast of Alaska -- I'm totally serious. Not only would it have saved me a ton of money, but he would've made some of his own.

The "valuable, secret method" is neither valuable nor secret -- it's as you suggested, just letting kids do for themselves instead of having their every need attended to like they were royalty. That's our fault as parents. We live in the wealthiest country in the world, and some of us have given our kids way too much and encouraged them to become, as you said "invalids." School is boring and unchallenging, life is easy but conformity is expected, you can have any material thing you want and yet the world is a mess, and little Johnny down the street got a brand new Beemer for his 16th birthday. No wonder some people think their kids have "entitlement issues." It's more the parents' fault than the child's.

My kids have been more "allowed" to care for themselves than most of their peers. They resent this a lot, by the way. My 'problem child,' the oldest, is an incredibly brilliant young man. But the fact that he is near the top of his class and doesn't really remember his sophomore or junior years says more about how shitty the school system is than about how stoned he was. Still, he had his shit together enough to have a few different paying jobs, since he was old enough to lie about his age and get a job, and all our kids learned to cook, do laundry and chores and all that since a young age. It's not that we don't want to parent them, it's more that our idea of parenting is that by the time they are ready to move out, they shouldn't be very dependent on us anymore, except for possibly helping them with college so they don't acquire a mountain of debt like I had to.

The other thing you should understand about how I could do something so stupid as to send him to a wilderness program is that unlike most kids who get stuck in that situation, this was very familiar territory for him. He was 4-wheeling, camping and crawling in the dirt with his family before he learned to walk (literally) and has been exploring the wilderness on foot with family and friends ever since. So here he was a 17-year old kid getting dropped into the middle of Utah with a bunch of strangers, with the basic message of "you need to work some shit out," and he was very well prepared for that -- physically, mentally, emotionally. I had no doubt he wouldn't be the least bit scared of anything he would encounter out there. If they had called me and said "he's running away" I would probably have said "let him run. He can take care of himself." But when I heard him talk about some of the other participants -- for example, a 14-year old girl from Malibu who had never been anywhere but the beach and the mall -- I thought "that's just wrong."

I've rambled on long enough, but I hope some of it made sense.

[exhausted]

Deborah,

It's funny, reading what you have to say about allowing kids to gain the skills they need like coking, laundry etc.....my kids have always been responsible for picking up after themselves, coking meals with me, washing up, doing laundry etc, they have every skill there is when it comes to running a home, i actually started this as toddlers, when i changed a nappy, I would say "now go put it in the bin, it is dirty, we don't need that"  the same would happen with toys, at the end of the dday, they would put the toys away in the box before bed

yet as teens they are the most disobedient and lazy toads on this planet, they have the skills but refuse to use them, i could supply an entire third word country with penecillin from what grows in their bedroom!

[Anonymous]

[Anonymous]

[Anonymous]

allowing kids to gain the skills they need like coking

You know, maybe if you kept them off the 8-balls they wouldn't have quite the problems. Do they have a divided septum yet? :rofl:

BTW, remember that they might find this place sometime in the future and read everything you write...

[Karass]

I think my kid's "coking" skills were quite up to par. "Cooking" skills too, and I don't just mean cooking food.

[Anonymous]

If he wants advice on that kind of cooking, we provide that here too.

[Karass]

I've always enjoyed your posts MGDP. You're a frickin riot!

[exhausted]

allowing kids to gain the skills they need like coking

You know, maybe if you kept them off the 8-balls they wouldn't have quite the problems. Do they have a divided septum yet? :rofl:

BTW, remember that they might find this place sometime in the future and read everything you write...

Okay it is late here, my spelling's gone to ratshit, so sue me  

No need to worry about them reading any of this, there's nothing written here I wouldnt say openly to them.