WHAT ABOUT THE PARENTS?

[TheWho]

On 2006-04-27 12:06:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Please remember that WWASPS has great marketing and are great liars.  A few years ago when I was looking for a school for my teenager, there were not the sites that are out there now that show the other side.



We thought we did our best to check out a school that was out of the country.  We were giving our child an opportunity to get out of his rut and experience culture change and catch up in school.  He was not a bad kid, and we were not trying to get rid of him. We physically checked the school, talked with many parents that had their child there, talked with many employees about how this school was run.  They all had the same story, as they are taught to give, and we thought we were doing our child a favor.  They out and out lied to us on many issues.  Of course, when we found out what was really happening, we got him out and have been fighting side by side together making sure that this doesn't happen to others.



You can go check on a kennel for your dog, see the wonderful place that it will be staying, talk with the great people that will be giving your animal love while you are gone and feel great that you have chosen this place for it.  There is no guarentee that when you drive out, that your dog is put in this great enviroment.  They could have been hiding the discusting back rooms where they really keep the animals and you would never know it.  "

Sounds like you made the right choice based on the information you had at the time.  Too bad there are people out there who deceive others purely for profit.  It makes it that much harder for those who are trying to help the kids.

You are right about the kennel analogy, but at some point you have to have some faith in the path you choose.  All we can do is make the best decision, with our child?s welfare in mind.

[TheWho]

On 2006-04-27 11:27:00, The Liger wrote:

"I read and post at an attachment parenting forum.  In a nutshell, attachment parenting is basically: "a philosophy based in the practice of nurturing parenting practices that create strong emotional bonds, also known as secure attachment, between the infant and parent(s). This style of parenting encourages responsiveness to the infant or child's emotional needs, and develops trust that their emotional needs will be met. As a result, this strong attachment helps the child develop secure, empathic, peaceful, and enduring relationships."



I have noticed lately that many of the people who subscribe to this type of parenting are totally hypocritical when their children become teenagers.  For example, this lady yesterday posted this story about her 15yo daughter who had a physical fight with the dad.  They called the cops on her.  The cops said if they didn't pick her up in 24 hours, she would be placed in foster care.  So they told the cops to keep her.  She casually mentioned that the daughter blames the parents for the older sister committing suicide.  Then she mentions that she's looking into a "tough-love" camp to put her in.  She said she wanted advice.



All these people replied with "Oh you poor thing" and the like.  When I replied, I pointed out the hypocrisy of being a member of an attachment parenting board and posting about tough love options.  I pointed out that the daughter is likely acting out because of trauma from her sister's death, and maybe they should get her into therapy, etc.



The lady totally lashed out at me, saying that she doesn't need any extra guilt.  I wasn't disrespectful at all, but she told me to stop responding to her posts.  She said that the daughter is totally disrupting the family.  They have a bunch of younger kids that they need to worry about.



It seemed totally obvious to me that she wanted to get rid of the daughter and wanted other parents to coddle her over her decision.  Basically, this woman had made up her mind before she asked for advice.  She wanted to get the okay from her peers.  And, for the most part, she got it.



I tend to think that most of the parents who send their kids to WWASPS or similar programs have the same attitude, the same excuses.  That's why they're so easily sold on the programs.  They are looking for someone to say, "Hey, it's not your fault."  And they get that from the people selling the program.  They want someone to tell them that what they are doing is the most loving thing they could do.  So they welcome these reassurances from staff and program parents.



So yes, I think parents are to blame.  



BUT, I think it is counter-productive to waste too much time on it.  If you want to convince parents that WWASPS, et al. is bad, and you know the parents want to be coddled, then try to market them the way WWASPS does:  "Oh you poor parents, duped by the big bad corporation."  It's a means to an end, really.
"

Thanks Liger,  You wouldn?t believe how many posters here just make blanket statements that place the blame on all the parents.  They cant see that every incident is different, there are so many environmental, social stimuli (i.e. attachment) and genetic factors that to try to tie the root cause to just parental techniques (in every instance) is an amazing statement that lacks thought, in my opinion.

Looking at this from an individual, case by case bases, I could agree.  Some kids should never have attended and did poorly and maybe the parents feel duped out of their money.  But the ones whose kids did very well feel it was worth every dime and would have paid twice the price.  Like everything else there are always those cases where the parents did it for the wrong reason but I think this is the exception.

[Badpuppy]

To the anon parent whose son was in a foreign WWASP school. I am glad that you are doing what you can to expose the WWASP marketing racket but you do not get a free pass. Why did you not have your child examined by a mental health professional? If you went to the detention camp how could you not notice that something was very wrong? Why on gods earth would you accept no contact with the child?  Why didn't you get a copy of the inmate rules? Did you look at the bathrooms, check the living quarters, speak to the inmates? Did you read the contract? Did you have a lawyer check the contract?  Did you see if the school was accredited?  Did you get a checklist of any kind from any professional association?  You used no professional help of any kind. You were paying in the neighborhood of 40k or more but used the same "due diligence" you might for a lawnmower. If you wanted your kid to go to college don't you think you should have checked to see if the credits would be acceptable. Don't you think it should have been a red flag when a contract talks about electronic and chemical restraints? I will never understand how you could place your son out of the protection of US laws in a foreign lockdown. Your actions amount to negligent child care in my opinion. Although I think that their is rarely any child that thrives hundreds of miles away from his natural support systems (not talking about traditional boarding schools) I can understand, without supporting that decision, a decision making proccess that led to placement in a less austere facility, assuming resonable due diligence and care. But placing a kid in a WWASP facility is utterly beyond my comprehension. No free pass, but good marks for recognizing your mistake, and attempting to  make it a little better, by exposing the WWASP scam.

[Anonymous]

On 2006-04-27 14:04:00, Badpuppy wrote:

"To the anon parent whose son was in a foreign WWASP school. I am glad that you are doing what you can to expose the WWASP marketing racket but you do not get a free pass. Why did you not have your child examined by a mental health professional? If you went to the detention camp how could you not notice that something was very wrong? Why on gods earth would you accept no contact with the child?  Why didn't you get a copy of the inmate rules? Did you look at the bathrooms, check the living quarters, speak to the inmates? Did you read the contract? Did you have a lawyer check the contract?  Did you see if the school was accredited?  Did you get a checklist of any kind from any professional association?  You used no professional help of any kind. You were paying in the neighborhood of 40k or more but used the same "due diligence" you might for a lawnmower. If you wanted your kid to go to college don't you think you should have checked to see if the credits would be acceptable. Don't you think it should have been a red flag when a contract talks about electronic and chemical restraints? I will never understand how you could place your son out of the protection of US laws in a foreign lockdown. Your actions amount to negligent child care in my opinion. Although I think that their is rarely any child that thrives hundreds of miles away from his natural support systems (not talking about traditional boarding schools) I can understand, without supporting that decision, a decision making proccess that led to placement in a less austere facility, assuming resonable due diligence and care. But placing a kid in a WWASP facility is utterly beyond my comprehension. No free pass, but good marks for recognizing your mistake, and attempting to  make it a little better, by exposing the WWASP scam."

Well said BP.  I think the ex WWASPS parents are to be commended for speaking out - but most defintly, should not be given a free pass.  Too many red flags that were missed with no legitimate reason that I have ever heard.  Ditto the use of abuctors-for-hire to take a kid by force to one of these lock down facilities out of the U.S or some program in Montana, Utah, Idaho, etc.  I read that one parent actually drugged their kid so they wouldn't resist.  How pathetic is that?  What amazes me is the parents who are suing.  I can see a kid suing (their parents and the program) but a parent suing the program to recoup their money?  That's insane.  It's their child who paid the biggest price and can NEVER EVER regain those lost years.

 :eek:

[Anonymous]

Well, what about Sue Scheff at PURE? Isn't she suing WWASP for what she says was abuse of her daughter at a WWASP facility? And Sue Scheff was one of the most successful people to REFER other parents to WWASP facilities around. She sure didn't mind sending OTHER PARENTS to WWASP as long as WWASP was paying her the big bucks.
And now Sue Scheff dares to criticize the parents she referred to Whitmore Academy because they filed a civil case against the Sudweeks? And Cheryl Sudweeks is facing a criminal trial for abusing some of the kids Scheff referred to Whitmore. This woman/parent makes no sense at all.

[Anonymous]

On 2006-04-26 10:18:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Hmmm....What if it pees everywhere, won't house break, chews on everything, growls at every family member? What if the dog becomes vicious, now biting everyone in the house, hiding behind funiture and when least expected, leaps out and mauls the baby?   Wouldn't the owner quickly remove it? Get it trained?  Teach the family how to deal with the dog?  Now before you get all over me about training...you are the one that made the dog analogy! "

Uh, if a dog behaves that way its because his "owner" is too fucking lazy to spend the time to train it properly.  IT'S NOT THE DOG'S FAULT THAT IT HAS NOT BEEN "SOCIALIZED" !

[Badpuppy]

Although the parents were negligent the WWASPS run in my opinion a FRAUD and RACKET. I believe that this makes the proportional responsibilty of the childs injuries a far greater liability on the WWASPS. The only good thing about the WWASPS program is their connection to each other. I believe eventually, the RICO statutes will be used against them and close them all.
One of the big reasons these programs have not been shut down is because parents don't want to go to court. By going to court the parents expose themselves to potential liability from their child, the shame and humiliation of their failure to do their "due dilagence" as well as any nasty skelatins in their closets. It takes a lot of courage and integrity to publicly admit these failures.

Kids if you have been the victim of these programs check to see if you have a case. The ACLU or state chapter of the ACLU may be interested representing you. Also get some references from the state bar. Big lawfirms often have pro bono programs. It may be hard work and very frustrating finding a lawyer to help you. But know that bringing a lawsuit, if your are able, may bring you a little revenge, and help the next kid from suffering your fate.

Parents, it takes extreme courage to admit what you did in public trial. But think of what was done to your kid. Hopefully you and your kid will feel some real empowerment, not the fraudulant WWASP kind. This is an extremely tough road, but a little check at the end of it, for both you and your kid, might just help restore some trust. Not a lawyer but god bless all of you, except for WASSP facility owners.

[BuzzKill]

The Program  / Kennel analogy is really apt when you come to think about it.

I have worked in Kennels. I have Quite in protest - much as some program staff will do. I can tell you some of the common promises broken by Kennel operators:

1. Your pet will get its medicine on time, as prescribed.

Truth - your pet might get it medicine on occasion. Their isn't any organization about providing the medication; and the overworked staff do not take the time to give the animals meds. Also, we might sell your medication; or take it home for our animals.

2. Your pet will be taken out of its kennel several times a day for play and potty breaks.

Truth - your pet Might get to go outside for a few minutes in the morning, and a few minutes at night, while the kennel is cleaned. If it does its business then, fine. If not, it will sleep in it, and lay in it, all day. This is why we offer the "free" bath before pick up. It is also possible it will only be moved from its dirty kennel to one that's been cleaned. Many kennels do this shifting between kennels - and the dogs never see the light of day - for how ever long the owners leave them there. This is why well house trained dogs often return home seeming to have forgotten all their training. They have been forced to forget it.

3. Your pet will be allowed its bed and toys.

Truth - they are bagged up and tagged for return to you (maybe) but the pet will never see then. It is impossible to keep them clean and dry in a urine and feces covered run. Also, as with meds - they might be taken home by the staff.

4. Your pet will be feed the food you provide.

Truth - the food is dumped in a common barrel which all the dogs are fed from. Or if a premium unopened bag, it might be placed on the floor for sale. If canned food, it is sometimes feed when someone feels like messing with it - but not necessarily to your pet. Also, very often the better food items as well as treat items go home with the staff for their pets.

5. Your pet is being watched over by dedicated animal lovers who will treat it with kindness and affection.

Truth - in some cases, this is true.
But also, there are large numbers of staff who are ignorant about animals - do not really like animals - but who can find no other work. It is very low pay for a lot of unpleasant work, and many who do it, come to hate and resent the animals, and take their frustration out on them. Cruel behavior is very common. When complained about by other staff, it is ignored - and in fact may get the complaining staff member ostracized or even fired - b/c you can't have animal protection wakkos working in a kennel. If they fired every staff member who kicked a dog; or chocked a dog; or threw a cat against the wall - well you wouldn't be able to keep enough staff on to run a kennel! And, you also have a certain percentage of sadist who clearly enjoy the power they have over the helpless beast, and who use it to inflict pain and suffering for their demented pleasure.

Now - does the animal's owner have much chance of ever learning the truth? No, they do not. If they are aware of the possibility, and knowledgeable about animal behavior, they might pick up on some red flags - but most don't. Some actually scold their pet for urinating in their fear upon entering the facility.

Also, it is not unusual for the kennel/ shelter (for all of the above it true of shelters, with the added risk of immediate euthanasia thrown in)
to have a glowing reputation in the community - so much so - that those who try to speak out are seen as lying manipulators with an agenda. Disgruntled staff an so on. Nothing they say is believed - b/c of this glowing reputation, and the feeling it must not be sullied by unsubstantiated gossip.

Can the owners be blamed for their ignorance? Perhaps. But finding the truth is difficult no matter how much research one does - and visiting does little or no good - b/c of corse none of this take place in front of prospective clients. The most vicious sadist will go on about how much they love the animals; pet them, talk about their personalities and quirks - as if they do indeed love them.  

Now consider this: yes it is the animals who suffer - but do the owners not have a right, even an obligation, to sue for damages if they do find evidence of cruel and inhumane treatment? If their pets come out of their stay cowering in fear; looking thin and starved; showing obvious soreness from the beating - or a throat noticeable swollen and soar from the chocking?

Even if animals could sue (as young adults can) wouldn't the owner also have a case for fraud, as well as their pain and suffering from learning how their pet was treated?

I think so. In fact, as I mentioned - I feel they have an obligation to do what ever it is possible to do to bring the true situation to light - and that is most often a law sute. Criminal charges should be persuied - but this requires the states involvement - and they often do not want to pursue such cases. So, that leaves civil litigation - and absolutly, the owners / parents should pursue this option.

[BuzzKill]

One more similairity comes to mind -
The staff often have great contempt for the owners b/c of the owners un-founded trust and ignorance. These Stupid people who leave their animals in these concrete and wire hell holes deserve to be fukked over, is pretty much the overwhelming attitude of the operators and staff. That they have been lied to and manipulated does not figure into the assessment of their intelligence and character by the staff.
Much the same as has been expressed by staff at some programs.

[wild thing]

Just because a parent belongs to an Attachment group, as the parent who posted here previously lauding these Gulag camps, does not mean that they are totally commited to the best interests of their children.
Just look at the number of deaths that have occuried from "bonding" and "holding" experiences in the name of attachment.  Many states have outlawed this type of bogus therapy after children died at the hands of their "therapsists" and I use that term loosely and these parents hell-bent on making their children "attach."  In reality, parents who stoop to this level are control freaks who are trying to recreate someone in their own image.  This doesn't happen with birth children.  Many of these parents do not adopt for altrusitic reasons, rather, self serving and narcissitc reasons are their motivation.  And then they become angry that this child won't bend totally to their will and become a clone of themselves.

[Anonymous]

On 2006-04-27 14:04:00, Badpuppy wrote:

"To the anon parent whose son was in a foreign WWASP school. I am glad that you are doing what you can to expose the WWASP marketing racket but you do not get a free pass. Why did you not have your child examined by a mental health professional? If you went to the detention camp how could you not notice that something was very wrong? Why on gods earth would you accept no contact with the child?  Why didn't you get a copy of the inmate rules? Did you look at the bathrooms, check the living quarters, speak to the inmates? Did you read the contract? Did you have a lawyer check the contract?  Did you see if the school was accredited?  Did you get a checklist of any kind from any professional association?  You used no professional help of any kind. You were paying in the neighborhood of 40k or more but used the same "due diligence" you might for a lawnmower. If you wanted your kid to go to college don't you think you should have checked to see if the credits would be acceptable. Don't you think it should have been a red flag when a contract talks about electronic and chemical restraints? I will never understand how you could place your son out of the protection of US laws in a foreign lockdown. Your actions amount to negligent child care in my opinion. Although I think that their is rarely any child that thrives hundreds of miles away from his natural support systems (not talking about traditional boarding schools) I can understand, without supporting that decision, a decision making proccess that led to placement in a less austere facility, assuming resonable due diligence and care. But placing a kid in a WWASP facility is utterly beyond my comprehension. No free pass, but good marks for recognizing your mistake, and attempting to  make it a little better, by exposing the WWASP scam."

First, I am not looking for a free pass.  I was trying to let others know that WWASPS has different rules for different parents.  Different marketing tactics for different situations.  When Dundee Ranch was opened in Costa Rica, it was marketed to us as a brand new boarding school.  My husband and I did alot of homework.  Our son was not at a point for professional help.  He was a normal teenager with normal problems.  We were giving him an opportunity to better himself, get out of a rut and what better way to experience life at that age, than to go to a fresh new environment, a wonderful country like this, with all the exciting things that WWASPS promised.  He was an adventuous kid and we felt we were doing a great thing for him.

The "school" was very rough when he arrived.  We thought it would be good for him to help build this school to the greatness that we were all promised. We did not realize that he would actually be doing the manual labor, for free, in very dangerous situations.  We even visited him, walking around freely among the kids.  Looking back on it we remember that there was always a staff member close by.  When we questioned the owner about certain conditions and demanded a conference, we were duped again, recieving the drawings and blue prints of what they were in the process of building.  

And yes, we spoke with him weekly.  They let us, because we were involved with this school, like anyone should be when their child is away from home.  WWASPS bends rules when they have pressure put on them.  We were lied to on many occations by their staff.  Fortunetly our son was intelligent enough to assess what was happening there, how they manipulated the parents, and went along with the ride and waited for us to realize what was up.    

This was almost 4 years ago.  There was nothing out on the web that explained what was happening in these facilities.  As thorough as we thought we were, we were duped.  Our son holds nothing against us and also learned lessons, mainly how people like this get away with what they do and the parents that you thought were much smarter than you can be tricked.

What amazes me, is how a parent today that has a teen in a facility and has been exposed to, for example, seeing a picture of a child in a dog cage at High Impact doesn't rush to their child but instead still "trusts the program"!

[Anonymous]

great justification for imprisoning your son!  I'm touched...not!  If he was anormal teenager with normal problems why did you try to solve them in a normal way?

[Anonymous]

I don't think she is justifying anything, just sharing information.

Are you saying that all boarding schools are wrong for teenagers, especially ones that sound great.  Is this not normal?

[TheWho]

Anon, there are many people listening and benefiting from your story and experience, thank you.  Not all programs are the same, many parents have found places for their children which worked very well, in which they grew and flourished.  Others were duped as you were.  I think stories like yours go a long way in helping parents make better choices.

[Anonymous]

I do not know what you are reading, butI did not see any reference to all boarding schools in my post...I am only refering to se behavior modification places that are run like a prison camp in Siberia.  If a teenager is "normal" with "normal" problems why would you send him out of the country?  Forget about being duped...this parent heard what she wanted to hear and now wants to dupe others into believing her good intentions.   No, she WANTED to believe in the owners...a truly "normal" parent with a "normal" teen with "normal" problems would seek a more "normal" way of dealing with them and not ship them off to have a "fun" experience in an underdeveloped foreign country.  That is just a load of crap to assauge her guilt.