Author Topic: Atomic Ant's bowling buddies  (Read 2601 times)

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Offline BuzzKill

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Atomic Ant's bowling buddies
« on: September 30, 2005, 12:58:00 PM »
Post URL: http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... 160#136290


Atomic Ant -

I agree with your bowling buddies. I have oft made the same argument, tho in different words.

Its possible to take that argument and expand it to become a dandy conspiracy theory - and I personally think there may be something to it.

I also think the fairly dramatic switch in society from home cooked meals to fast food diet is a factor.

I think it has affected our mental health as well as our physical health - as a society.

And again - this is a result of the two income family.

I remember what it was like when my kids were little and I was working - I'd come home exhausted and have a meal to cook and clean up after, and laundry to do and all the other various duties of a wife and mom. It is natural and inevitable that families gravitate to fast food - it cuts down on so much work.

Certainly, I understand why women fought for equal pay for equal work - and indeed, the right to work and be respected on the job - but over, all I think we were brainwashed to think we "should" work outside of our homes - and that we "needed" the extra income, and that raising our children was not worth while or interesting or of value to our families and society.

A "housewife" is still looked at as something not much better than something to be scraped off the bottom of a shoe.

And too - the role of men in the family has been greatly de-valued in recent decades.

The value of family in general has been under constant attack for many years now and as a result families are crumbling.

So, next time your out with your bowling buddies - toss one back for me in a toast of agreement.

 ::cheers::
*[ This Message was edited by: BuzzKill on 2005-09-30 10:01 ]
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2005, 01:22:00 PM »
As WWASPS says ... "There Are No Accidents" ... including the emphasis on "family" in their programs:

FAMILY REPS
FAMILY LEADERS

In essence, THE PROGRAM is THE FAMILY.

Now comes my question:

How is it healthy for kids to be submerged in a controlled environment ruled by persons they are trained to think of as "family"?

These kids HAVE a family, or did, before they were forced out of their family unit and into a one-size-fits-all behavior changing assembly line.

While I agree that many parents are struggling to make ends meet AND be there for their kids, it appears the majority of kids in these WWASPS programs come from middle-to-upper-class families.  Notice I said the majority, for indeed, there are kids there whose parents could NOT afford even the budget WWASPS programs without taking out a second mortgage, borrowing from a relative, or dipping into their life savings.  

Truthfully, I think it's time for these program parents to take back their children and make a family for them in their own home.

NO MORE EXCUSES.

Either you are a parent or a program parent. There is no in-between, these are 2 very different roles.

 :smokin:
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2005, 03:34:00 PM »
Buzzkill is right. Ever get THAT LOOK when you respond to the question, "what do you do?" with the answer, "I'm a stay-at-home-mom." Yeah, THAT LOOK!
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Offline Nihilanthic

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« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2005, 07:28:00 AM »
Id give a look of envy.

I sure as fuck wish that we were still in the era when one adults paycheck was enough for a family to get by! My mother worked and still does out of necessity - when personal income and inflation/expenses change in a decade or so when thats possible, bring up this nonsense again, ok?

Im not trying to be a dick, Karen, but come the hell on. Most people need to SURVIVE before they can have structured gender roles to live by and be a nice happy homemaker while the hubby comes home and has a cocktail at 5 pm.

Well, then again, if you could afford a program you can afford that sort of lifestyle :roll:

The right of self-defense is the first law of nature . . and when the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any color or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction.

--St. George Tucker, in his edition of Blackstone's Commentaries

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DannyB on the internet:I CALLED A LAWYER TODAY TO SEE IF I COULD SUE YOUR ASSES FOR DOING THIS BUT THAT WAS NOT POSSIBLE.

CCMGirl on program restraints: "DON\'T TAZ ME BRO!!!!!"

TheWho on program survivors: "From where I sit I see all the anit-program[sic] people doing all the complaining and crying."

Offline Antigen

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« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2005, 10:23:00 AM »
Depends on your priorities.

When I did it, we were broke as church mice. My husband was working for family for nowhere near enough money. So I had to make do. I took on a couple of friends kids to babysit, I made our own bread 3x a week, shopped thrift stores, etc. I even took my dad's advice and retightened the feed contacts on the circuit breaker in order to reduce resistance and (hopefully) save some on the electric bill.

The kids tell me it was one of the happiest times of their lives. It was nice. I wonder what would have happened if my husband hadn't gotten sick and decided to give up carpet laying for computing. I think we would have rolled w/ it either way.

Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill it teaches the whole people by example. Crime is contageous. If the government becomes the lawbreaker, it breeds contempt for law, it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy.
http://nospank.net/antwon.htm' target='_new'>U.S. Justice Brandeis (1856-1941)

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Offline BuzzKill

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« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2005, 02:02:00 PM »
Niles -

I understand were your coming from.
Please know, I am not casting blame or making judgments.
Just as I don't want to be judged a lazy, mindless, moron for staying home -
I don't want to judge the moms who work as self centered, coldly ambitious,and materialistic.
Neither stereo-type is correct.

One thing to keep in mind when discussing these issues, is that when the two income trend began, there was generally no need.
The work and extra income was primarily a want. The message that a woman ought to Want to work become louder and more persistent.
 The not so subtle message bombarding them from every direction was that onlty the dull and lazy could ever be satisfied and "fullfilled" at home raising children. Soon, weather they really wanted to or not, the moms felt obligated to go to work.
Soon after that, it became harder and harder to have a typical, middle class life style, with out the two incomes -
And here we are today, with it more often than not impossible - just as you point out.

But Ginger is also correct.
It is often a matter of priorities.
Folks are mistaken to think they *need* many of the things they buy with that second income.

Speaking for myself - we realized I didn't have to keep my job when my husband's company went on strike one winter. For those few months we got by on my paycheck - which was a fraction of his when he was working. By got by - I do mean got by.
It was uncomfortable and we did a great deal of cutting back - but we did get by.

This told us we could certainly get by on his alone, and do so much easier than we had on mine alone - so when the strike ended, I gave notice.

I had to get used to a few changes.
Where as before, I had always had cash in my wallet and could take a friend to lunch or make any number of impulse purchases (books, toys, nick-knacks and such; not new cars or boats and such) I now never had cash, and could no longer be so open handed with friends, or buy that book just cause I wanted it.

We never had anything remotely like a new car and our home was very small and modest - so keeping all that was not an issue.
That's Why we could afford for me to quite.

That, and the fact my husband did earn a good wage. Its as blue collar as blue collar gets - but they do pay him well to work so hard.

We've never had a lot extra, but we have always had enough.

//Well, then again, if you could afford a program you can afford that sort of lifestyle //

As for being able to afford the program -
In our case, that was a very unique event. My dad died.
He had worked hard all his life and lived modestly and saved, and so there was something to be inherited.

I actually thought I was going to be able to get real and meaningful help for my son as a result.
I actually thought paying for "private" care would get us a premium program.

Stupid, stupid, stupid - I know; But this was how I paid for it.
I'm ashamed to have been such a fool - but I was stressed out, worried sick and desperate.

Which brings us back to why the parents are such easy marks. . .

The two income shift has had consequences  beyond inflation.
Personally, I do think it is a factor in the growth of this industry.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2005, 05:00:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-10-01 11:02:00, BuzzKill wrote:

"Niles -



I understand were your coming from.

Please know, I am not casting blame or making judgments.

Just as I don't want to be judged a lazy, mindless, moron for staying home -

I don't want to judge the moms who work as self centered, coldly ambitious,and materialistic.

Neither stereo-type is correct.



One thing to keep in mind when discussing these issues, is that when the two income trend began, there was generally no need.

The work and extra income was primarily a want. The message that a woman ought to Want to work become louder and more persistent.

 The not so subtle message bombarding them from every direction was that onlty the dull and lazy could ever be satisfied and "fullfilled" at home raising children. Soon, weather they really wanted to or not, the moms felt obligated to go to work.

Soon after that, it became harder and harder to have a typical, middle class life style, with out the two incomes -

And here we are today, with it more often than not impossible - just as you point out.



But Ginger is also correct.

It is often a matter of priorities.

Folks are mistaken to think they *need* many of the things they buy with that second income.



Speaking for myself - we realized I didn't have to keep my job when my husband's company went on strike one winter. For those few months we got by on my paycheck - which was a fraction of his when he was working. By got by - I do mean got by.

It was uncomfortable and we did a great deal of cutting back - but we did get by.



This told us we could certainly get by on his alone, and do so much easier than we had on mine alone - so when the strike ended, I gave notice.



I had to get used to a few changes.

Where as before, I had always had cash in my wallet and could take a friend to lunch or make any number of impulse purchases (books, toys, nick-knacks and such; not new cars or boats and such) I now never had cash, and could no longer be so open handed with friends, or buy that book just cause I wanted it.



We never had anything remotely like a new car and our home was very small and modest - so keeping all that was not an issue.

That's Why we could afford for me to quite.



That, and the fact my husband did earn a good wage. Its as blue collar as blue collar gets - but they do pay him well to work so hard.



We've never had a lot extra, but we have always had enough.



//Well, then again, if you could afford a program you can afford that sort of lifestyle //



As for being able to afford the program -

In our case, that was a very unique event. My dad died.

He had worked hard all his life and lived modestly and saved, and so there was something to be inherited.



I actually thought I was going to be able to get real and meaningful help for my son as a result.

I actually thought paying for "private" care would get us a premium program.



Stupid, stupid, stupid - I know; But this was how I paid for it.

I'm ashamed to have been such a fool - but I was stressed out, worried sick and desperate.



Which brings us back to why the parents are such easy marks. . .



The two income shift has had consequences  beyond inflation.

Personally, I do think it is a factor in the growth of this industry.



"


Karen, you make some very good points, but personally, I think the statistics show a higher percentage of WWASPS kids coming from divorced households with middle-to-upper level incomes. This is not to say there are not kids in these programs whose parents could ill afford to spend upwards of $40k on a program and as such, took our second mortgages, borrowed from KEY BANK, etc.

Second, WWASPS does have that tuition credit program, you know ... refer a kid, get a free month's tuition for your own kid?  

I think this marketing ploy helped WWASPS to expand their enrollment numbers rapidly ... especially with the help of people like Lynn Pretzfield (sp?), Sue Scheff (before she started PURE), and others.

WWASPS has always been an aggressive marketer of their schools and programs, but overall, I think their fast growth can be attribued MORE to parents getting into the business of recruiting than the success of their programs.

What do you think?
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Offline BuzzKill

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« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2005, 06:18:00 PM »
Well, I really have no idea how it would break down statistically - not so far as married/ divorced / separated, or about to be.
I'd agree divorced parents are very common. Step Parents often seem to have a lot to do with many placements.
But, I think this too, is largely a result of the two income trend.

I do agree that the vast majority of program parents are very well to do, at least by my standards (everything being relative)
Altho there do seem to be significant numbers who went deep into debt to finance it.

No doubt the marketing has a lot to do with the growth. They are very, very good at the marketing.
The parental incentive to sell the program, along with the many web sites and the slick literature are all also factors.

It is a complicated mix of societal/family conditions, attitudes and financial ability; along with diabolically clever marketing and manipulation, that have made these Programs what they are today.

To sum it up over a beer and bowling - I agree with Atomic Ant's pals.
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Offline TheWho

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« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2005, 07:00:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-09-30 10:22:00, Anonymous wrote:

"
Truthfully, I think it's time for these program parents to take back their children and make a family for them in their own home.



NO MORE EXCUSES.



Either you are a parent or a program parent. There is no in-between, these are 2 very different roles.



 :smokin:



"

I dont agree -- I think there are always exceptions to everything, always a gray area.
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Offline TheWho

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« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2005, 07:26:00 PM »
"So I asked them the $64,000 question. "What should a struggling parent do when their teen is so out of control that the parents feel that the teen's life is in danger and so are the siblings' lives and so are the parents' lives?" I took a deep breath.

After they stopped laughing, they made remarks like; "Isn't every teenager's life in danger." and "It's amazing any of us survived the stunts we pulled as teenagers." "

Good podt Atomic Ant:

I had the same response with my grand parents.  The only problem is the stakes are higher now.  They didnt have HIV back then or kids falling asleep with hyperdermics next to them for their kid sisters to pick up.
They are laughing because the remember "trouble teens" as kids breaking a few windows or staying out all night.  Maybe driving 45 mph with no headlight on etc.  it was a different world, neighbors watched out for each others kids and talked to each others parents etc.

But for the most part I agree, if more families had a parent home all day alot of these problems would go away.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2005, 08:16:00 PM »
***They didnt have HIV back then or kids falling asleep with hyperdermics next to them for their kid sisters to pick up.

Where are the parents when the kid is shooting up on the sofa?
Where were the parents when their kid came home with the two friends who were passed out in the basement?
Where did the kid get the money to buy hyperdermics and the drugs to shoot up?
Why isn't the kid working or enrolled in activities that are engaging and stimulating?

This parent is looking for a lock up for a child they've given up on.
Programs are not a magical cure for anything and do nothing that a parent can't do themselves, given the inclination.
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Offline Helena Handbasket

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« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2005, 08:55:00 PM »
Quote

But for the most part I agree, if more families had a parent home all day alot of these problems would go away.

"


Sure, a parent home all day solves all the problems right?  What if that parent sits in front of the TV all day, oblivious to anything? Susie comes home from school and asks how the day went.  The incorrigible little chit has no business bringing up the fact that said parent did nothing all day, right?  That's a total lack of respect - kid needs "discipline".

What if the parent drinks all day, and sobers up enough around midnight to realize that Johnny isn't home.  Well, Johnny's violating curfew... put him away.

What if the parent is home all day, and maybe invites other parents over, and they all get caught up in gossip, and the latest PTA agenda, and no one's paying attention when little Susie wanders into the path of an oncoming car or falls into the pool?  Aw man, if only that kid would have paid attention!

Hey, at least that parent was at HOME!
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uly 21, 2003 - September 17, 2006

Offline TheWho

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« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2005, 10:15:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-10-01 17:55:00, Helena Handbasket wrote:

"
Quote


But for the most part I agree, if more families had a parent home all day alot of these problems would go away.


"




Sure, a parent home all day solves all the problems right?  What if that parent sits in front of the TV all day, oblivious to anything? Susie comes home from school and asks how the day went.  The incorrigible little chit has no business bringing up the fact that said parent did nothing all day, right?  That's a total lack of respect - kid needs "discipline".



What if the parent drinks all day, and sobers up enough around midnight to realize that Johnny isn't home.  Well, Johnny's violating curfew... put him away.



What if the parent is home all day, and maybe invites other parents over, and they all get caught up in gossip, and the latest PTA agenda, and no one's paying attention when little Susie wanders into the path of an oncoming car or falls into the pool?  Aw man, if only that kid would have paid attention!



Hey, at least that parent was at HOME!






"

Yes, thats true. I should have said a parent home all day that is engaged with their childs life.
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2005, 10:34:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-10-01 11:02:00, BuzzKill wrote:

As for being able to afford the program -
In our case, that was a very unique event. My dad died.
He had worked hard all his life and lived modestly and saved, and so there was something to be inherited.

I actually thought I was going to be able to get real and meaningful help for my son as a result.
I actually thought paying for "private" care would get us a premium program.

Stupid, stupid, stupid - I know; But this was how I paid for it.
I'm ashamed to have been such a fool - but I was stressed out, worried sick and desperate.

Which brings us back to why the parents are such easy marks. . .

The two income shift has had consequences beyond inflation.
Personally, I do think it is a factor in the growth of this industry.


Damn, Karen. That's so sad. Classic "new money" foolishness. I have the same grief for what I know our family values were before all this 30 years ago. But, 30 yeas ago, I was 10. WTF did I know? And all the other wittnesses are partial to the Program.

So, you squandered the fruits. But we're stuck w/ the seed, aren't we? I kind of consider it an inherited dharma to learn from these well intended minstakes and brace my kids against making the same ones.

You're a rare one, Karen. You know that, aside from my childhood minister (as I remember him) you're probably my favorite Christian. Whatever the dogma, it takes a fine human being to live it.

A dictatorship would be a heck of a lot easier, there's no question
about it.
--GW Büsh, Business Week, July 30, 2001

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Offline TheWho

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« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2005, 10:39:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-10-01 17:16:00, Anonymous wrote:

"***They didnt have HIV back then or kids falling asleep with hyperdermics next to them for their kid sisters to pick up.



Where are the parents when the kid is shooting up on the sofa?

Where were the parents when their kid came home with the two friends who were passed out in the basement?

Where did the kid get the money to buy hyperdermics and the drugs to shoot up?

Why isn't the kid working or enrolled in activities that are engaging and stimulating?



This parent is looking for a lock up for a child they've given up on.

Programs are not a magical cure for anything and do nothing that a parent can't do themselves, given the inclination."

Answer to the first Question:  At Work
Answer to the Second Question: Picking up Daughter at school
Answer to third Question: Stolen
Answer to Forth Question: Dropped out of school, wont communicate, no eye contact, abuses sisters, wont work.

I never mention lock-up, you did, shame on you!!

Sure lets blame the parent on this one.  You have offered no solutions for this poor teen who needs help, just look past the person who really needs the attention and focus on the parent.  
A 2 year old can tell you that something is broken and point the finger, but it takes someone with some ecperience and or knowledge to fix the problem and that is what most parents are seeking, solutions.
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