BRAT CAMP TEEN ARRESTED

[Anonymous]

The Facts?  You want to debate facts with parents? Since when?  
Name calling? You are the initiators of all that. Yes, some of us stooped to your level. I, for one, apologize for doing so. I see no reason to disclose my son's program after the senseless posting of another parent's personal information. Why would I put myself in the same position?  I disagreed with some aspects of my son's program. In fact, despite your opinion, many of the parents repeatedly question what is going on at the programs. I'm sure you know from all your research that Karen's son left his program early after some real confrontations between the parents and the school. You didn't bother to mention this when you were attacking her.   My son was at the same program and also left early by his choice (he was 18. No program is perfect, but that doesn't mean they are abusive or out only to make money.

Ben's Dad

[Troll Control]

NEWS BULLETIN:  Whooter, the person who sent you to this link, WORKS FOR ASPEN EDUCATION.  See below quote from Whooter admitting his "fiduciary duty" to Aspen Education.  Whooter is an industry troll and not "just a regular parent" as he would try to make people believe.

When is this supposed to take place?

Well the  announcement takes place after the lawyers sign off on the deal, but they usually wait until the transfer is ready to take place.
The legal transfer typically takes place at the beginning of the new quarter (or fiscal year).
So based on this I would expect the announcement would come at anytime and the transfer could occur on Tuesday October 1, 2007 or early January 2008.



...

How is it that you are in a position to have knowledge about the acquisition of HLA?

I apologize for being vague, I have a fiduciary duty which prevents me from speaking in any specific terms in this area and can only comment on information which is first made public by either party involved,  this could be misconstrued as Tipping

***Now that is impressive,--I always thought of Dysfunction as a computer geek with no particular skills aside from the technical ones: but he spelled "ad hominem" correctly (not "ad hominum" which is wrong and is in the way most people spell it)***

Well, thanks for the, uh, compliment... :roll:

If you did take any amount of time to read what I have written in the past, you would have seen that I am an "IT guy" yes, but also an MSW and MBA.  

I worked as a therapist in an RTC (Daytop Village) and an intake counselor at a "TBS"  (there really is no such thing, they're "BMW's"-behavior modification warehouses) (Hidden Lake Academy), so I know a bit about how these places operate and exactly what their priorities are.

Now, if you require troubleshooting for your child or your internet connection, please feel free to drop me a line for some down-to-earth advice about either one...


_________________
"Compassion is the basis of morality"

-Arnold Schopenhauer[ This Message was edited by: Dysfunction Junction on 2005-08-05 09:00 ]

[Troll Control]

I would be happy to debate you at any time over the "therapeutic value" of any of these programs.

Your post shows, once again, that you are not interested in debating.  If not, what are you doing here?  Just reading for fun?

Let's talk about the Academy at Ivy Ridge, shall we, "Ben's Dad"?

_________________
"Compassion is the basis of morality"

-Arnold Schopenhauer[ This Message was edited by: Dysfunction Junction on 2005-08-05 09:18 ]

[Anonymous]

I don't know anything about Ivy Ridge.  That is not where my son was.
The problems I see with the TBS programs (as opposed to wilderness are these:

1. Hard to retain good therapists because of the remote location of most of the schools. The therapists are frequently young with young families (or single) and tire of the life-style).
2.  Hard to retain good academic teachers- same reasons plus it is a year-round job which takes away one of the huge perks of being a teacher in the first place.  Also, the academics are very secondary at most of these places, although academics were stressed more at my son's program.
3.  Financial- My son's program had a lot of money behind it, which is why it is successful.  Many of the programs do not, and simply go broke.  
4.  Inflexibility- There is an attitude of there being only one way to do things.  It is hard for the leadership of the schools to be flexible enough to make exceptions for special needs or adjust the program.  Things are ruled by an iron grip.
5. Staffing-  It is the junior staff who have the most interaction with the kids. At my son's program the junior staff were great. However, their opinion was not given the weight it deserved and it was the top dogs, who had less interaction with the kids, who made the important decisions regarding a kid.
6.  Peer relations- It really bothered my son that there seemed to be an incentive to turn on other kids in the group sessions to make it look like you were really buying in.

These are just a few comments.  

Ben's Dad

[Troll Control]

On 2005-08-05 09:33:00, Anonymous wrote:

"I don't know anything about Ivy Ridge.  That is not where my son was.

The problems I see with the TBS programs (as opposed to wilderness are these:



1. Hard to retain good therapists because of the remote location of most of the schools. The therapists are frequently young with young families (or single) and tire of the life-style).

2.  Hard to retain good academic teachers- same reasons plus it is a year-round job which takes away one of the huge perks of being a teacher in the first place.  Also, the academics are very secondary at most of these places, although academics were stressed more at my son's program.

3.  Financial- My son's program had a lot of money behind it, which is why it is successful.  Many of the programs do not, and simply go broke.  

4.  Inflexibility- There is an attitude of there being only one way to do things.  It is hard for the leadership of the schools to be flexible enough to make exceptions for special needs or adjust the program.  Things are ruled by an iron grip.

5. Staffing-  It is the junior staff who have the most interaction with the kids. At my son's program the junior staff were great. However, their opinion was not given the weight it deserved and it was the top dogs, who had less interaction with the kids, who made the important decisions regarding a kid.

6.  Peer relations- It really bothered my son that there seemed to be an incentive to turn on other kids in the group sessions to make it look like you were really buying in.



These are just a few comments.  



Ben's Dad"

OK, this gives us something to go on, Ben's Dad...

I think the points you made here are valid.  What I don't understand is how you think any of your points do not apply to wilderness programs (save for the academic area).

1.  In wilderness programs, there is no regular contact with a REAL (by this I mean licensed, credentialed) therapist.  Kids may get one "session" a week from a quack-job, most of the time by telephone.

The reason that there are not reputable therapists working with these programs is that the programs themselves violate ethical patient care standards.  That's why good therapists don't work there, not because of the "remote" locations.

2.  Does not apply.

3.  Financial success does not equate to therapeutic value.  I worked at perhaps the most expensive and "in vogue" TBS that makes millions of dollars per year, but the program is of little or no therpeutic value to its clients.  

In fact, it has been shown by countless studies that the "experiential" treatment modality is counterproductive to fostering either emotional growth or "mental health."

4.  Both residential and wilderness programs use "one-size-fits-all" treatment methods.  For example, a young girl with an eating disorder is in the same program groups as a young boy with an arson fetish.  Just have a look at any "Brat Camp" episode and you'll see this.

The location where the "treatment" is administered makes no difference.  The "treatment plans" are the same (although most wilderness and TBS programs don't offer actual treatment plans because they then would be required to be overseen by the state and they vehemently resist any regulation whatsoever, so your kid most likely never had a treatment plan anyway).

5.  "Junior Staff" are inexperienced, usually uncredentialed workers at TBS's.  At wilderness programs, they are almost invariably untrained and uncredentialed and they have primary responsibility for the kids.  Who would want that?

6.  Encouraging kids to "rat" is one way of learning things when your staff is unable or untrained to see and evaluate what is actually going on.  It is also a key factor in all BM programs, as it reinforces rigid adherance to the rules through fear of consequences.

Don't you understand that these kids only comply with program dogma because it will go REALLY bad for them if they don't?  Your son evidently complied only up until the exact moment in time at which he could no longer be legally controlled by you and the program.  Compliance to program rules in no way relates to "progress" with one's "issues."  It only means the kid is smart enough to not "blow up his own spot."

Thanks for being kind in your post and for getting to some real information about these programs.  Evidently, we don't see eye-to-eye on this subject, but at the very least, you get FIRST-HAND observations from me, not filtered through someone looking to make a buck off you...

[Anonymous]

Of course it depends on the kid (some kids do indeed have profound mental health issues and will need psychological/psychiatric support indefinitely)---but it sounds to me like you (Dysfunctional) are placing excessive importance on the amount of individual therapy provided per child in these programs,

We often forget that people--including teenagers--have untapped personal, frequently unrecognized strengths and resilience.  A therapist can have a role in realizing these things, no question, but so can trusted adults, good friends, ministers, positive life experiences, opportunities to do better, and so on.

Now I understand that Dysfunctional doesn't think that any of these good contacts happen in any programs---we may have to agree to disagree on that---my point is: don't think of all teenagers who are acting out as just a pool of potential clients for some mental health professionals.  

They might be better viewed as still maturing people in need of learning more about how to be fully functioning individuals in the world---I've got nothing against therapists and good ones certainly can help with this process--but so can many other things and people

I also think Dysfunctional may be a little off on whether or not therapists can ethically work at these kinds of programs---it will obviously depend on the program----but I know of therapeutic boarding schools that have actually been APA internship sites, presumably these school were considered ethical practice sites by the APA which had to approve them as a training location

[Troll Control]

Don't confuse "therapeutic value" with "seeing a therapist."

My question to you is, if "therapeutic value" can be had through relationships with ministers, teachers, role-model-type adults and others, then why would you ever need to send your kid to a program to find these people?

I never said that these types don't work in programs.  There aren't many, but there are some.  But why do you need to send your kid away for that?

You really defeated your own argument behind sending kids to programs.

I also think that the vast majority of kids don't need therapy either.  They can be helped by caring parents.  

But what you're saying is that most kids don't need therapy (I agree wholeheartedly) and that very little therapy takes place at a TBS or wilderness program (again, I agree).  

So, I guess what I'm asking then is why did you ever send your kid away in the first place?  You say it wasn't for "therapy" and you say most kids can be helped at home?  What happened in YOUR home?

If your kid was too messed up to be helped by you and others as you describe above, you must have sent them away for something else, which most people would assume to be therapy.

Please help me understand your contradictory statements...[ This Message was edited by: Dysfunction Junction on 2005-08-05 11:25 ]

[Anonymous]

Title:   Two Years Later: A Qualitative Assessment of Youth Well-Being and the Role of Aftercare in Outdoor Behavioral Healthcare Treatment.
Author(s):   Russell, Keith C., University of New Hampshire, Durham, NH, US

Address:   Russell, Keith C., University of New Hampshire, Durham, NH, US
Source:   Child & Youth Care Forum, Vol 34(3), Jun 2005. pp. 209-239.
Journal URL: http://www.springeronline.com/sgw/cda/f ... eader=true

Publisher:   Germany: Springer
Publisher URL: http://www.springeronline.com

ISSN:   1053-1890 (Print)
Digital Object Identifier:   10.1007/s10566-005-3470-7

Language:   English
Keywords:   youth well being; aftercare role; outdoor behavioral healthcare treatment
Abstract:   This study evaluated youth well-being 24-months after the conclusion of outdoor behavioral healthcare (OBH) treatment and explored how youth transition to a variety of post-treatment settings. OBH treatment involves integrating clinical treatment approaches with wilderness expeditions that average over 50 days. Transition from OBH treatment often requires that youth and family utilize aftercare services, which are typically: (a) outpatient services, which are comprised of individualized, group or family therapy, or (b) residential services, which are comprised of residential treatment centers, therapeutic boarding schools, and others. The results suggest that 80% of parents and 95% of youths perceived OBH treatment as effective, the majority of clients were doing well in school, and family communication had improved. Aftercare was utilized by 85% of the youths and was perceived as a crucial component in facilitating the transition from an intensive wilderness experience to family, peer and school environments. Results also indicated that many continued to use alcohol and/or drugs to varying degrees, had legal problems, and still had issues forming friendships with peers. OBH treatment was perceived as being a necessary and effective step in helping youths address, and eventually overcome, emotional and psychological issues that were driving destructive behavior prior to OBH treatment. (PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2005 APA, all rights reserved)(journal abstract)
Subjects:   *Aftercare; *Health Care Psychology; *Well Being

Classification:   Health & Mental Health Services (3370)
Population:   Human (10)
Male (30)
Female (40)
Age Group:   Adolescence (13-17 yrs) (200)
Adulthood (18 yrs & older) (300)
Tests & Measures:   Youth-Outcome Questionnaire
Form/Content Type:   Empirical Study (0800)
Followup Study (0840)
Qualitative Study (0880)
Journal Article (2400)
Publication Type:   Peer Reviewed Journal (270); Electronic
Format(s) Available: Print; Electronic
Release Date:   20050531
Accession Number:   2005-04985-003
Number of Citations in Source:   28
Persistent link to this record:   http://search.epnet.com/login.aspx?dire ... -04985-003
Database:    PsycINFO

[Anonymous]

"But what you're saying is that most kids don't need therapy (I agree wholeheartedly) and that very little therapy takes place at a TBS or wilderness program (again, I agree)."

A comment by Dysfunctional about my previous post.

So on this much we can agree. Not a lot of therapy at least in many programs but in my experience at least a whole lot of learning and positive change through experience and relationship and development of self

So why send kids away, why not have change at home---again, I think that we can agree that boarding school placement should be a rare occurrence---it should always be a last resort.

However, in my opinion, there are times when a kid---for a variety of reasons---has gotten into a negative spiral of behaviors at home.  And it is pretty hard to end that spiral while in the home---because a)the kids enjoys the behaviors, and b)the circumstances of his life at home have become "cues" to the behaviors.

Can family therapy or other serious motivation to change within the family short-circuit these behavior patterns without having to sent the kid away?  Sometimes, with effort, but sometimes maybe more effort than the family is capable of.  

Remember, parents are almost always (I think actually always) part of the kid's problem---as a parent who has been in that situation, I believe that wholeheartedly. And remember that at some point in the acting out, the kid may have pretty much lost confidence in the family and the family may have lost hope of being able to change.

Sometimes--as it was in our case---it is through the family being separated and changing separately---that both child and parents do become better and are able---as we were---to beging again with mutual acceptance and new skills.  I saw it happen with other families also sso I know that it wasn't something unique to us.

That's our experience so you'll just have to take my word on it---as I have to take yours about what you've seen: once more I think that we can agree that one has to choose a program very carefully since they are not all of the same caliber

[Anonymous]

My son's wilderness therapist was actually very present in his program. He was one of the founders of the program and a licensed psychologist. He saw the kids two days (back to back) a week and spent an hour on the phone with us (the parents). He was quite gifted. He had an assistant who was also a licensed psychologist.  My son related well to both men once he got over his anger at being in wilderness in the first place.  
The junior staff to which I refer at the TBS are actually also psychologists.  I'm not talking about the couple of babysitter-types who are on staff.  I'm talking about the actual therapists who lead groups and work one on one with the kids.  This is the front-line, but it is frequently the upper management who thinks they know better.....
I really think wilderness is a different animal from TBS. For one thing, there is no school going on. At my son's TBS (and another thing with which some of us took issue) holding the kids out of class was a means of punishment. This served to put them behind in their work and affected their grades.  Most of these kids were pretty solid students heading for good colleges, and it seemed stupid.  Wilderness is very intense and eliminates many of the distractions of day to day living.  Of course, the TBS eliminates many as well, but not as many as wilderness.  
Ben's Dad

[Anonymous]

To Ben's dad

The previous post to Dysfunctional was mine.  Wanted to clarify that I'm not saying that therapy is bad---or that a therapist cannot be an integral part of a program.

What I'm saying is that for some kids (mine was one) what they really need is something more akin to life coaching than a medicalized psychological intervention.  Obviously a therapist can be part of either process.

And in terms of life experiences and self development a therapist can be part of that too but so can other involved adults.
Many of the counsellors in my child's school had no psychology degree but much of what they did was growth promoting and contributory to good psychological health.

My point was that in these schools and programs it is not necessary for one-on-one psychotherapy on a daily basis or something like that: I think that as needed, there should be available time with trained psychologists. But some kids are going to need much more professional intervention than others.

[Troll Control]

On 2005-08-05 11:30:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Title:   Two Years Later: A Qualitative Assessment of Youth Well-Being and the Role of Aftercare in Outdoor Behavioral Healthcare Treatment.

Author(s):   Russell, Keith C., University of New Hampshire, Durham, NH, US



Address:   Russell, Keith C., University of New Hampshire, Durham, NH, US

Source:   Child & Youth Care Forum, Vol 34(3), Jun 2005. pp. 209-239.

Journal URL: http://www.springeronline.com/sgw/cda/f ... eader=true



Publisher:   Germany: Springer

Publisher URL: http://www.springeronline.com



ISSN:   1053-1890 (Print)

Digital Object Identifier:   10.1007/s10566-005-3470-7



Language:   English

Keywords:   youth well being; aftercare role; outdoor behavioral healthcare treatment

Abstract:   This study evaluated youth well-being 24-months after the conclusion of outdoor behavioral healthcare (OBH) treatment and explored how youth transition to a variety of post-treatment settings. OBH treatment involves integrating clinical treatment approaches with wilderness expeditions that average over 50 days. Transition from OBH treatment often requires that youth and family utilize aftercare services, which are typically: (a) outpatient services, which are comprised of individualized, group or family therapy, or (b) residential services, which are comprised of residential treatment centers, therapeutic boarding schools, and others. The results suggest that 80% of parents and 95% of youths perceived OBH treatment as effective, the majority of clients were doing well in school, and family communication had improved. Aftercare was utilized by 85% of the youths and was perceived as a crucial component in facilitating the transition from an intensive wilderness experience to family, peer and school environments. Results also indicated that many continued to use alcohol and/or drugs to varying degrees, had legal problems, and still had issues forming friendships with peers. OBH treatment was perceived as being a necessary and effective step in helping youths address, and eventually overcome, emotional and psychological issues that were driving destructive behavior prior to OBH treatment. (PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2005 APA, all rights reserved)(journal abstract)

Subjects:   *Aftercare; *Health Care Psychology; *Well Being



Classification:   Health & Mental Health Services (3370)

Population:   Human (10)

Male (30)

Female (40)

Age Group:   Adolescence (13-17 yrs) (200)

Adulthood (18 yrs & older) (300)

Tests & Measures:   Youth-Outcome Questionnaire

Form/Content Type:   Empirical Study (0800)

Followup Study (0840)

Qualitative Study (0880)

Journal Article (2400)

Publication Type:   Peer Reviewed Journal (270); Electronic

Format(s) Available: Print; Electronic

Release Date:   20050531

Accession Number:   2005-04985-003

Number of Citations in Source:   28

Persistent link to this record:   http://search.epnet.com/login.aspx?dire ... -04985-003

Database:    PsycINFO



"

I'm not sure what your point is here.  

Anyone with a scintilla of knowledge about scientific method knows this is not a scientific study.  It's an opinion poll, nothing more, nothing less.

Furthermore, I would submit that both the parents (spent a ton of money and need to believe it was well-spent, can't otherwise justify sending their kid away) and kids (fear that they'll be sent back) have vested interest in reporting a positive outcome.

Show me a quantitative longitudinal study and we'll talk (diagnosis/severity before and after treatment).

What you've shown is a marketing tool, not a study.

Check this out:

http://www.unh.edu/outdoor-education/Keithbio.html

Dr. Russell is in the business of "Outdoor Rehabilitation" and is a program designer.  

Do you think he has just a little bit of interest in seeing the numbers work out?  

Geez, at least you could find some research from someone OTHER THAN A PROGRAMMIE.  What little credibility you had before is gone...
_________________
"Compassion is the basis of morality"

-Arnold Schopenhauer[ This Message was edited by: Dysfunction Junction on 2005-08-05 12:39 ]

[Anonymous]

INDEPENDENT STUDIES NEED TO BE DONE ...

These studies by the industry are not reliable.

The DEATHS prove wilderness therapy is unsafe.

Notice how nobody wants to talk about the deaths or can even remember how many kids have died?

That's because there is no national clearinghouse that tracks this info.

None of the kids who died would have died if they weren't abused and/or neglected.  That's a fact.

[Anonymous]

I agree- the peer accountability (when it worked well) was as important as the formal therapy. My son  had a lot of trouble showing emotion and weakness, and one valuable tool he came home with was how to do both.

[Troll Control]

On 2005-08-05 12:04:00, Anonymous wrote:

"My son's wilderness therapist was actually very present in his program. He was one of the founders of the program and a licensed psychologist. He saw the kids two days (back to back) a week and spent an hour on the phone with us (the parents). He was quite gifted. He had an assistant who was also a licensed psychologist.  My son related well to both men once he got over his anger at being in wilderness in the first place.  

The junior staff to which I refer at the TBS are actually also psychologists.  I'm not talking about the couple of babysitter-types who are on staff.  I'm talking about the actual therapists who lead groups and work one on one with the kids.  This is the front-line, but it is frequently the upper management who thinks they know better.....

I really think wilderness is a different animal from TBS. For one thing, there is no school going on. At my son's TBS (and another thing with which some of us took issue) holding the kids out of class was a means of punishment. This served to put them behind in their work and affected their grades.  Most of these kids were pretty solid students heading for good colleges, and it seemed stupid.  Wilderness is very intense and eliminates many of the distractions of day to day living.  Of course, the TBS eliminates many as well, but not as many as wilderness.  

Ben's Dad"

I'd be really interested in seeing any program where "junior staff" are "psychologists." I've never seen that.

Having a BA in psychology doesn't make someone a psychologist.  You're saying that all the junior staff were MA level or higher and state licensed as psychologists?  

That's a highly dubious claim.  At least name the program so I can see for myself.

Please don't give some lame excuse about keeping your identity safe.  I don't care who you are, nor do I seek to find out.  But what you have said above amounts to what is an obvious "whopper."  

Either you're misinformed or you were lied to by the facility.  You'll have to show some evidence, as this is simply UNHEARD OF in the industry...