Redcliffer

[Anonymous]

I am not an expert in the Child custody/support law as it stands in America however it is my understanding there are inter state agreements in place. This is how they can collect child support no matter where child and parent are. Try one of the fathers rights sites. Maybe they can give you some ideas on what has or hasnt worked in the past for some of them.

[Deborah]

****Morally, at least (legally remains to be seen) they have no right to deny my husband access to his son. But they very arrogantly state their "policies" allow them to do so. I find it very hard to believe that any BUSINESS has the right to keep a parent from his child. It's the moral equivalent of kidnapping. None of this makes any sense.****

That?s total bullshit and standard industry manipulation. Their policies have NO legal standing. In effect they are saying that the owner of the program allows them to do it.
They are colluding in the kidnapping of this boy and the violation of his father's rights.

My sons were involved with three different programs and all attempted to deny my rights, as per their father?s request.

What I learned during my ordeal- Your court ordered rights supersede any program?s policies re: contact and visitation, records, etc; unless they have been removed by another court order.

I suggest that you consider changing your strategy by showing up at the facility with decree in hand, stating that it is your court appointed time to visit your son and demand they release him. Get police back up if necessary. Don?t announce that you are coming. And do not, under any circumstances leave until he is in your custody. Go out into the field and find him if necessary.

Take him home and be done with it, unless mom decides to take issue.

If she?s stupid enough to do that, you?ve got ample documentation to show just cause for your action. Get your documentation in order in case it's needed.

You are absolutely correct, this is not the first time they have dealt with custody disputes. They are dragging it out as DJ stated. It?s simply not an issue for them unless a non-supportive parent has the time and resource to make it an issue.
Go get the boy on the next regularly scheduled time for a visit and defend yourself if that becomes necessary. Force THEM to take action to keep him there.
Kick some ass.

[tommyfromhyde1]

I hate to be the one to tell you this but Redcliff
may just be the beginning of your son's ordeal.
Redcliff seems to have an ongoing relationship
of some kind with an outfit called Hyde Schools.
They have campuses in Bath, Maine and Woodstock, Conn.
I know from other posters that Hyde sends kids
who they can't brainwash to Redcliff. I also
think that Redcliff uses Hyde as a sort of
"halfway house". Hyde's program is what I call
"gulag-lite", lots of forced exercise, lots of
staff and "Seniors" screaming in people's faces
and they even have a sort of "mini-wilderness"
in the summer. The good news is that it's not
lock-down so if your ex puts him there you might
have an easier time getting him out. Also since
you're located in NH you don't have to fight
long-distance so much.
Good luck,
Tommy

Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived.
--Isaac Asimov, Russian-born American author

[Notafriendofredcliff]

Okay I took off my paper bag and I'm no longer anonymous.  This has been so helpful I decided to register.  I take responsibility for what I say, and I invite Redcliff Ascent to challenge me on any of it.

We're out of options for a quiet, polite solution to this.  We can't document any abuse or neglect, and sure hope it stays that way.  There was allegedly an Interstate Compact form signed, but nobody will acknowledge it.  Family court in NH is so biased against men that we couldn't get an order from them to remove him.  We DID get the order that we have full rights to all his information....but Redcliff doesn't care.  If / When we could / couldn't get an order from Utah, it would be too late.  We could just show up there, but we have no clue where to look for him.  He's out in the middle of nowhere.  Redcliff has little offices all over the place.  But it takes them 24 hours to bring your child to a civilized place you can drive a vehicle to, and that's only when they will ALLOW you to pick him up.  We don't get visitation time again until Christmas. And we couldn't get temporary physical custody to take him out and bring him home with us. So as far as the practical issues go, we're screwed.

This practice needs to be stopped, and it's all a matter of public awareness.  It's ludicrous to think some BUSINESS ENTITY in another state, with minimal operating expenses (low-salary workers, lots of dried oats), and not even the expense of providing shelter for these children, has the right to separate a father from his son.  Okay, they DO have expenses.  They paid a firm to enhance their website, so they could get increased exposure and attract new clients.  It worked.  Their business has increased 30% since implementing this.  Has the need for wilderness "therapy" increased 30% or are they just more appealing to a larger share of parents without a clue?  Ahhh....the FOR-PROFIT teen "help" industry.  

I'm digressing here....

We WILL find the most dedicated attorney we can find, one who has experience dealing with these programs. Our attorney died a few months ago, and we haven't had the need for one since.  We do our own Family Court stuff, as we never win anyway. (A Commission conducted a study of family court fairness recently and in their report said many have complained of biased judges & Marital Masters in this area.  Fathers don't stand a chance in Family Court here).  We've never been in any court other than Family Court before, so we WILL need to find the most experienced attorney possible, and preferably one with long, jagged teeth.  If we find we have no legal recourse to help this child, I will make it my personal crusade to spread the word about their policies, and their disregard for the rights of children & parents.  

In the meantime we'll just try to comfort each other.  We can't stop shaking long enough to sleep.  We are like the walking dead.

[Anonymous]

The courts will intervene if it is a matter of health, welfare, and safety of this young person which it seems to be.  Take the custody battle out of it, and put the child's health, welfare, and safety in the front and God they better react.
Andrea

[Anonymous]

What wonderful Drama!  Reality show concept in a WebLog Format.  I'd suggest contacting ABC, NBC, CBS to see if they would cover it.  ABC has conflict since they are broadcasting Brat Camp.   "Ok, let make fire with a stick, Take 7, ACTION"  Oh, forgot about Fox.  They may be interested.  Not worthy of a reality Show?  A REAL reality show... Let's see if 60 minutes is interested.  How about 20-20...oops, Disney wouldn't go for that since they own Brat Camp.  Maybe Oprah would take interest in the poor kids who are sent there by a misaligned parent who conspires to get back at their Ex-Spouse.  Hmmmm, I can punish her/him by taking our kid and sending him off to boot camp...I mean brat camp....Oops I mean "Wilderness therapy Experience".  This describes your kid doesn't it?  You are saying he didn't deserve to be there?  Just a pawn in the Battle of the Roses Chess Game?

It's time to pull out the punches.  Call Dr. Phil.  Have him get the disputing parents in front of him and he will fix it.  If Dr. Phil is booked, Call Jerry Springer.  He will take anything.  

I've read this complete string, start to finish (I feel sorry for Deborah!).  I read it again.  No one is making money except the brat camps and maybe their lawyers.  Who is REALLY caring for the kids.  Why should they be punished to Hell on earth for the rest of their lives?  Has anyone read Lord of the Flies lately or Catch 22?  I think Mr. Golding and Mr. Heller did a great job.  

Hey ACLU...Any Civil Liberties at Stake here?  Any religious involvement?  Do Brat Camps offer church services in the wilderness?  Any Rabbi's, priests, pastors or mullah's concerned about their flock being in Utah?  Is there anyone at Red Cliff's who is Morman, a member of the Church of LDS or a graduate of Brigham Young University?  Any $$ going from Rich Jewish Parents in Connecticut to Red Cliffs to the Church in Salt Lake City?  Is that foreign exchange?

Seriously folks...Don't forget about the Kids.  They are NOT always Guilty!

[Deborah]

***Any religious involvement? Do Brat Camps offer church services in the wilderness?

Yeh, some religious involvement with certain programs. Not sure about Redcliff, wilderness in general.

***Any Rabbi's, priests, pastors or mullah's concerned about their flock being in Utah?

Should be. Heavy mormon/republican influence in the industry http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.ph ... 25&forum=9

****Is there anyone at Red Cliff's who is Morman, a member of the Church of LDS or a graduate of Brigham Young University?

Oh yes. At least six. One is a faculty member.
http://www.redcliffascent.com/staff.html

***Any $$ going from Rich Jewish Parents in Connecticut to Red Cliffs to the Church in Salt Lake City? Is that foreign exchange?

Dunno. But there?s a lot of money going to the church through tithing by program owners/staff, and a large amount to politicians

***Hey ACLU...Any Civil Liberties at Stake here?

I wouldn't discourage anyone from contacting every org/agency they can think of, but my effort was fruitless. Here are a few of the responses of those who even bothered to respond:

ACLU
Thank you for writing to the ACLU of Texas. Generally we don't handle family law issues, and this part about the school sounds out of the scope of things we handle, too. My suggestion would be that you contact children's advocacy
groups, and possibly even MHMR organizations, in case they have some experience with this particular school or the kind of situation you're
talking about. I'm sorry I don't have any specific groups in mind, but I would suggest you try looking on the web for these kinds of groups.
 Sorry we can't be of more assistance to you.

Youth Law Center
Dear Ms. XXXXXXXXXXX,
I'm sorry but we cannot help you.
Sincerely, Mamie Yee

Alexia Parks
Two top lawyers in this field are in Texas: Jim Moriarty, Houston, TX, 800-677-7095;
and Win Turley, Dallas, (214)691-4025. They do handle out of state cases.  [Neither interested]

One of the most useful responses I received:
PTAVE
Hi Deborah,
 Thank you to writing to PTAVE. I am writing to you as a social worker, and as a counselor who interned in a "therapeutic" residential home which was more punitive than "therapeutic". However, I live and work in a part of the
country where it is illegal to hit or physically assault children, so thankfully the kids here do not have to suffer that form of abuse.
 
You were not specific about what type of abuse your son may be experiencing (physical, sexual, emotional) so I cannot be specific in my answer. However, if you believe that abuse is in fact occuring and the TX state Dept. of Youth Services is failing to take proper action, you must see legal advice. Unfortunatly I am unaware of any lawyers in your area who are child advocates. You will need to consult with several lawyers until you find one dedicated to children's rights. I assume that you probably will need to proceed with legal action in the state in which the school is located, however, I am not certain of this.
 
You can help your case by calling your son's program and asking them to mail or FAX you a mission statement that defines their "therapeutic" goals and the specific manner in which they assist children in reaching these goals. Behavior Modification programs often have sweet sounding mision statements in order to impress their funding and referral sources. It is well known that therapeutic services to adolescents must be based on a model that treats trauma, views negative behaviors as a response to trauma and employs positive reinforcement in order to correct those behaviors. Ask about their
"therapeutic" orientation, framework and techniques. Often these places have young kids out of high school or otherwise scantly trained workers without degrees in psychology working for them, providing "therapy". Ask how workers
are trained.
 
I hope some of this is helpful. Please continue to advocate in your son's behalf if you feel that he may be at risk. Many children come out of
residential facilities with a strong, angry, hard edge to them. It is like a callous that they have learned to build up after repeated violations of
their human dignity by staff and fellow cohorts.
 
XXXXXXXXX
Social Worker

[tommyfromhyde1]

On 2005-08-13 18:45:00, Three Springs Waygookin wrote:


Someone already mentioned Hyde Park is associated with Redcliffe. I had a boy from Three Springs go to Hyde Park for a year after he graduated. I saw him one more time for some aftercare, and asked him how he liked the place, and the response was vague. He sort of looked like one of those strung out Vietnam Vets with a 1000 yard stare.

The punitive boarding school is called simply
Hyde School, not Hyde Park, unless we're talking
about different places. Note that I said PUNITIVE
and not theraputic. No therapy happens in these
places.

Don't hate the media. Become the media

--Jello Biafra

[Deborah]

It's Hyde School. Only link under 'TRADITIONAL' BS.  How'd they get that classification?

RTC
Discovery Ranch

THERAPEUTIC BSs
Telos RTC
Discovery Academy
San Cristobal Ranch Academy
Benchmark Young Adult School

http://www.redcliffascent.com/resources.html

[Anonymous]

On 2005-08-13 13:39:00, tommyfromhyde1 wrote:

"I hate to be the one to tell you this but Redcliff

may just be the beginning of your son's ordeal.

Redcliff seems to have an ongoing relationship

of some kind with an outfit called Hyde Schools."

I hate to break it to you but they also have a relationship with an even scarier outfit called Discovery Academy, which they part-own.  Check out this forum for tales of racist bigotry, harsh punishments, beatings and rapes (both heterosexual and homosexual varieties):

http://www.discovery-academy-forum.com

[tommyfromhyde1]

On 2005-08-14 11:23:00, Deborah wrote:

"

It's Hyde School. Only link under 'TRADITIONAL' BS.  How'd they get that classification?

They get it because they accept a lot of non-gulag
kids (i.e. siblings). Also, they recruit talented
jocks from the ghetto as ringers for their sports
teams with "scholarships". BTW most of the day
to day forced exercise I referred to happens in
(brutal) sports practices. That way when a kid
complains about it he's dismissed as "complaining
about sports". That spot between my shoulder
blades still hurts from being shoved along on runs
whenever I think about it.

Religion is just mind control.
--George Carlin, comedian

[Shortbus]

I remember having a student who could not be released from the program until both parents were in agreement about where he would go next. The student was from Tennessee and I believe the parents lived there too. And so, the student was in wilderness for nineteen weeks. He hiked over 500 miles. He was a great kid, took it all in stride, realized it was a battle of the wills between his parents.

I can hear the conversations between Redcliffe and the mother about placement after wilderness. Euwww, Im sorry this is happening to you and husband and son. Keep copius notes, record converstions if possible and try not to come across as too agitated or agressive with Redcliffe, unfortunately, theyve got the ball and are following the lead of mom.

Best of luck, and keep good notes. As lawyers like to say "If its not written down, it never happened."

[Deborah]

Well, there's their first strike. Fraud.

Traditional boarding schools do not warehouse kids 24/7/365, provide any form of therapy or BM, do not interfere with contact with parents, do not deny home visits for academic incompletes, blah, blah, blah.
We all know the many reasons they do not fit the catergory.

How does this benefit them? Do you know if they are licensed Tommy?

[Notafriendofredcliff]

We're so grateful for all the responses, advice and input!  Really.....THANKS!!!  You're helping to keep us sane!

From your input, we realize the immediate need to inform everyone, in writing, that we won't tolerate him being placed in any follow-up facility.  This may help us avoid future tragedy for this child.  

Here's the issue....We heard (through the grapevine/spies) that if it looks like the child will need to stay at Redcliff beyond the initial 30 day minimum, the enrolling parent is notified by "Day 20", and has to agree & make arrangements to pay for the extra time.  Rumor has it, this has already happened, and they have estimated two additional weeks.  As of now, it appears his overall stay could be 45 days (which would make him 3 weeks late entering high school).  And that's assuming he's finished the Program then.  Could be longer.  They charge $425 per day until they reach 60 days (that's a lot of beans & oats!)...then it goes down to $175 per day.  

Soooo.....Every extra day of high school he misses gets him further & further behind his peers.  He's not strong academically to begin with.  And having had this horrific experience is not going to help.  I wonder if they will use this situation to justify placing him in one of their boarding schools.  Will they say he needs to stay even longer at Redcliff just so they can totally screw up his education, and then offer Discovery or one of their other affiliates as an "alternative"?  This sounds like something out of a conspiracy movie, but from what I'm hearing, it's possible, even likely.

I am now essentially a full-time, dedicated researcher of Redcliff's history, their policies, their legal dealings, etc.  I want to make sure this doesn't happen to any other parent or child.  I am learning some EXTREMELY interesting things about the way they operate....such as:  Parents sign an agreement to allow Redcliff to restrain, detain, and control the child with reasonable physical force.  This can be used to prevent the child from running away, or in any other circumstances Redcliff considers appropriate.  The parents waive any claims for injuries, illnesses or other damages to the child.  Doesn't sound like a loving environment to me.  I'd want someone taking care of my child who would accept responsibility for keeping him safe and healthy.

They also accept enrollment applications from anyone who (truthfully or not) represents themselves as the child's parent(s), and they are absolved of any liability for the misrepresentation.  They are not required to verify or validate ANY information given to them by the enrolling parties. They say in the contract that they shall be entitled to rely on the representations of the signing "sponsors" with respect to all the information they are given....and that the "sponsors" agree to be forthright and truthful. I just don't think that's quite enough due diligence for a business charged with caring for troubled children.  They should AT LEAST be willing to make a few phone calls (and maybe the FIRST one they should make is to the child's clueless father!), verify or validate SOMETHING about the information on the application, and bear SOME responsibility.  I think that in cases of missing children, a wilderness therapy facility might be a good place to start looking for the child.  What an effective way to hide a child!  They take your WORD for it that you have the legal right to place the child, and the child is stashed away somewhere in vast miles of desert for a good long stay.

They are also authorized to transport your child by every imaginable means, including using the PERSONAL vehicles, motorcycles, or 4-wheelers owned by their EMPLOYEES. The only method not specifically mentioned was dragging.

And of course, the enrolling parent is responsible for expenses related to hunting down and recapturing the child if he escapes their clutches.  From articles I've read, this is not uncommon.

Overall, why would any intelligent, loving parent agree to this stuff?  I can understand if a parent is truly frightened for their child's life, and has exhausted all other options.  But in our case, this was just used as a babysitting service for the mother.  There is no legitimate reason for him to be there.

Redcliff bases their program on removing anything that could be DISTRACTING to the child....TV, computer, phones, good food, a comfortable bed, friends and family...so the child can concentrate on himself and his issues.  And this makes it very easy for Redcliff to operate.  But I don't believe for one minute that it's necessary to strip a child of every comfort of life along with his very dignity, to help him.  Aren't the kids "distracted" by having to build fires, cook their own tasteless gruel, using the bathroom outdoors with no privacy, suffering and hiking in extreme temperatures carrying heavy loads?  I sure would be distracted.  I'd be SO distracted by this, that after a while, I would just give up and comply with anything they asked....Agree to whatever they wanted....surrender my dignity....cease any normal thought process.  Hey, then I'd be ready to graduate from the program!

And shame on anyone who would put their child into a facility that had participated in the Brat Camp TV series.  I haven't seen it myself, but I understand the original series was with British kids at Redcliff.  If this is THERAPY (vs. punishment), since when is therapy televised?  These kids were not old enough to legally sign away their rights, so their parents did in exchange for the tuition.  Isn't that like a form of prostitution?  Unfortunately in our society, you have to prove you are proficient to operate a motor vehicle....But anyone is allowed to reproduce.

[Deborah]

Brilliant work and analysis NCL.

Yep, they may well try to keep him beyond time for school to start. Starting late should not be an issue. Hire a tutor.

The contract stuff is pretty standard as is much of what you shared. They collaborate at the industry assoc meetings about how to word things and avoid.  Perfecting manipulation.

Here are some links for your research:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=5433&forum=9
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=2843&forum=9
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=7312&forum=9
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#89754


Here?s my working file on Redcliff, which I haven?t updated in some time. Please post links to anything relevant you might find. Next step would be to search the players. Where have they worked before, etc.


REDCLIFF ASCENT    St. George, Provo,  Springville, Utah
Website: http://www.redcliffascent.com/
NATSAP Member

Member NATWC
http://www.natwc.org/camps/Redcliff%20A ... 20Inc..htm

2/1994  Darrell Lewis, Admissions, describes services
http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... /np04.html

7/1995  Desperate for summer staff.  75 teens out on trips.
http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... een01.html

10/1995   Matt Fitzgerald Ex Adm Dir, Lon?s Review, tight/flexible enough to handle any child
http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... sit01.html

6/1996   Darrell Lewis, homepage running for six mo, had appr 2,000 hits, avg one inquiry per week.
http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... ews07.html

10/1996 Review sent to Strugglingteens by Mitch Cole, spotless record
http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... ews04.html

10/1998  Add?l phase for graduates and 2-3 monthers
http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... een01.html

12/1999   Scott and Steve Peterson co-founders,  Authorities search for Runaway boys
http://www.teenliberty.org/RedCliffs.htm

12/2000  Charles Siebert,NY Times Mag,reports on trip to Redcliff Ascent in Utah to follow up national news stories about several youth who had run away
http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... een01.html

2/2000  Lengthy article in FREEP founded 11 yrs ago for juvenile justice sentencing. By 1993, cofounder Scott Petersen had received so many inquiries, he opened it to private citizens.
http://www.freep.com/news/childrenfirst ... 000217.htm

3/2000  Lengthy article at Outside Magazine
http://www.outsidemag.com/magazine/2000 ... dway1.html

7/2001  Steve Nadauld, Dir of Adm, formalized curriculum around the values of ?Courage, Self Discipline, Respect, Honesty, Work Ethic, Trust and Compassion,? and have updated their brochure, video and web site to reflect the new changes.
http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... een01.html

3/2004 Guardian article about Brat Camp- UK teens sent to RA. Quotes Stettler, ?"Each camp has at least an annual review?two unannounced monitoring visits. But Skyline Journey, where that child died, had been reviewed on a regular basis." Stettler is convinced the wilderness camps are a useful tool. "They are not a panacea? "The idea is that they take a kid from a defiant, rebellious, non-workable state to one where they are workable. That's when the work really starts, when the kid wants to make some changes."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,36 ... 44,00.html
[BTW, the Utah DHS promotes Wilderness at their website. Search WWF for Stettler to see how many times he has overlooked violations.]

Personal experiences with Redcliff
http://www.sociopranos.com/forums/threa ... &start=226