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Messages - FueLaw

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The Seed Discussion Forum / The inevitable death of Art Barker
« on: May 08, 2006, 01:17:00 PM »
Sorry but I thought the same thing Ginger did before even reading her post. I will piss on that bastards grave someday. It is only a matter of when. That pile of shit can go straight to hell!

The Seed Discussion Forum / a taste of the next article....
« on: January 16, 2006, 04:49:00 PM »
At the same time St. Pete was opening Dade was beginning to close. Barker got into a pissing contest with local politicians and lost. Seemed like Barker wanted lots of $$$ and free use of a facility(Tropical Race Track) but no accountability. Then Metro Dade Mayor Jack Orr would not back down and by fall of '73 Dade closed and moved up to and merged with Broward. It seems like about 1/2 the kids, the lucky ones, left the program never to be heard from again. [ This Message was edited by: FueLaw on 2006-01-16 13:50 ]

The Seed Discussion Forum / "if you don't, she will die"
« on: January 12, 2006, 03:14:00 PM »
Where is "Junky John" Underwood and his followers now? Nobody ever got physically abused? Those stories really get me pissed.

There were literally hundreds and hundred of kids forced into the Seed under the pretext that they would die or end up in prison. The parents were consistently lied to about their kids level of involvement with drugs. This is what created the fear.  The frauds and scams pulled by the staff were,and always will be,a dsigrace.

Now lets hear from some of the Seed apologist as to why this was an appropriate thing to do.

The Seed Discussion Forum / Group Think
« on: December 22, 2005, 01:30:00 PM »
jgar, while I don't agree with your position on the Seed I do agree with your approach in discussing the Seed. As I was attempting to point out on another thread the Seed experience in completely dependent on where a person was in there life. The more hooked on drugs ect... the more likely you were to be receptive to the program.

It also is dependent on the time period when you were in the program. I make my $$$ arguing with people but I can't argue with people who were part of the original Seed or who came in time periods after me. The experience was completely different because the Seed was completely different.

Please keep in mind that the person who argues the most against the Seed never spent a day in the program and has no logical point of reference to argue from.

Like you I only base my opinions on the Seed during the period I was in there, May '73-July'74, I was not there for footbal or softball, there were no social/athletic activities during my time period. Just 10-10's until you progressed in the program. When you graduated you were done. During my time period very few people went to old timer's raps after they graduated.

I also agree that most of the studies are probably worthless. I never meet a single person who was ever interviewed by a person conducting a so called study. In addition I don't need a study to tell me what did and did not happen while I was in there.

In terms of short and or long term "Benefit" from the Seed that also depends on the factors we have previously discussed. The people that were older, more mature and really wanted help getting off drugs probably did benefit in some ways. The people that did not want to be there and who were forced to be there probably did not derive any benefit's from the program. The Seeds claim of 90% success rate, which is what they were boasting during my time period, was a complete fabrication.

The Seed Discussion Forum / Aging Seedlings on drug policy
« on: December 18, 2005, 01:56:00 PM »
What happend to you is clearly wrong. The legal system is far from perfect. The law doesn't always work as intended. Hopefully in your case the judge made resitution a part of the sentencing order. In Fla if the driver casued you serious injury he would get some time if he had no insurance and no way to make restitution.  

About the people not being able to afford insurance. There is no good answer. Cant let them drive without it. On the other hand they cant afford it. Kind of a "catch 22". Works both ways if they get in accident then they will want and be entitled to compensation.

The Seed Discussion Forum / Aging Seedlings on drug policy
« on: December 18, 2005, 12:34:00 PM »
It is amusing to read post from people who are so far out on the left fringe tell someone else they are in left field.

Whatever happend to moderates ?

The problem with the people on the fringes, left and right, is that they have to omit a series of facts and ignore logic in order to reach their positions. In addition they think if they repeat their ill concieved arguments a thousand times it somehow becomes a valid argument when, truth be told, it is just as invalid the 1000th time as it was the first.

For example, the argument that society isn't better off today because when when Ginger's brother's were old enough to drive insurance was easier, less expensive, to get or you didn't even have to have it all. The statement ignores the reasons and facts as to why insurance has become mandatory and why rates are what they are.

The reason for mandatory insurance is laws is to protect those who are victims of some else's carelessness or negligence. In other words if someone smashes into you on a public street , road, highway ect.. they have an obligation to make you whole. That means repair your car, if repairable, or replace it if totaled. Pay your medical bills and pay you for any other damages such as lost wages ect...

Obviously there were to many people getting into accidents with no insurance and leaving people without a remedy. The solution is to force people to carry a minimum amount of insurance to at least provide any victim of an accident some remedy. Holding people accountable for their negligence and leaving the victims of others negliegence whole is not bad law or bad public policy. This means that if someone is negligent, runs a red light or stop sign, and smashes Ginger's "late model van" they have to fix it. If they cause her physical injury they have to pay for it. How else would you want it?

Keep in mind the policy is also based on the theory that driving on a state roadway is a priveldge not a right. Why does anyone have the right to cause someone else injury or damage and then just shrug their shoulders and say sorry I'm broke and don't have no insurance ? If they can't afford it tough luck. Society can't afford to pay for their neglience. Life aint always fair.

If I throw a rock thru someone's window do I just say i'm sorry or do I pay for the window ?

The stuff about unpaid fines is totally bogus. When you get your license you agree to follow the laws and rules of the state issuing you the license. Get a it. Got to have rules otherwise the whole traffic situation would be chaos. Go to Haiti or the Dominican Republic if you dont believe me. Follow the rules you dont get fined.

The crap about insurance companies & excutives ect... making lots of $$$ also misses the mark.The main reason insurance rates are higher is because everyting else is higher today then it was 30-35 years ago. 35 years ago you get a new car for $2000-$5,000. Today $20,000-$40,000. It obviously cost more to repair and replace these cars than it did 30+ years ago.  In addition medical cost are way way higher. Those cost are passed on to the policy holders in the form of higher premiums. There is no other way to do it. Keep in mind insurance companies are in business to provide a service for a profit.

The comment about drug courts is also way off the mark. "Drug Courts" are one of the best things the criminal justice system has ever created. Everyday judges throughout America literally agonize over what to do with young defendants, 18-24 year olds,who have been accused or convicted of violating the law. Drug programs offer the judges a form of sentencing, other than prisons, to give a person another chance to straighten out their lives. Some people succeed some don't...can't blame a judge for trying. The judges are duty bound to do something with anyone convicted of a crime.

My take on the whole rehab debate is this...If you are over 18, an adult, you can either voluntarily place yourself in a rehab or agree to be placed in one under court order. This is regardless of whether or not we want to call them a cult or not. Adults can make their own decisions. However, I oppose any program that is , TC in nature, for kids 17 and under.  :wave:

The Seed Discussion Forum / Should some distinctions be made ?
« on: December 09, 2005, 02:12:00 PM »
It seems to me some distinctions should be made in reagrds to how the Seed effected people. Based on post from folks like John Underwood, Landyh, and some the original people in the program, the original Seed was way different than it was for me. My time frame is May '73-July '74. The Seed as I experienced it was different than the others that came after me. The Seed from 1990 on, as described by others posting on this board, was completely different than the other time periods.

The point I am trying to make is the Seed changed over time and any individual experience was clearly dependent on how the Seed was during their relevant time period. In other words the front row experience for Underwood, Landyh & others was completely different and unique from mine. Even Underwood, in a post, acknowledges the Seed changed over time and as it grew it developed more and more rules, policies and things of this nature.

There are several other factors I believe are also critical in our individual experience. They are your age when you went in and whether or not you were in voluntarily or not.

Based on reading the board for about 3 years it seems to me the older you were the better you were able to handle the Seed. Maybe that is a function of age, maturity, better understanding of life,, or just how to play the game, ect..., I was 14 when I went in I clearly did not have the life experience as someone who was 7-10 years older. The Seed to me was a brutal brutal nightmare. In addition I was forced to go in the Seed. In other words I did not want to be there. Because I was not voluntary the Seed had to force themselves on me and I resented it and resisted it to the best of my ability.

Having read and considered many post, who views are different than mine, it appears to me that the common thread among most of the people who reflect back at their time in the Seed in a positive light were that they were older and there on a voluntary basis. Depending on their involvement with drugs, and other paralell issues, they benefited in ways that others couldn't.

As far as the Seed being a cult or not it really doesn't matter. (I happen to believe it clearly was) Just because it is or is not a cult doesn't preclude people for wanting to be a part of it and enjoying there experience in it.  At this point and time , 30 + years down the road, does it really matter?

With respect to rehabs I think adults can put themselves into any type of rehab they like. Cult or not. However, I will always be opposed to taking teenagers and forcing them to go through this kind of treatment.

One of the reasons we will alwys argue and disagree about our Seed experience it that we are not even really arguing over the same thing. The Seed was different for each of us based in large part on the factors I previously mentioned. [ This Message was edited by: FueLaw on 2005-12-09 11:16 ]

The Seed Discussion Forum / New Article
« on: December 03, 2005, 02:05:00 PM »
The funny thing about Trucker  and other similar post is that even more than 30 years later they still do not realize that they were lied to in order to get them to enroll or enter the Seed. For example, take Trucker, he was arrested for a small ammount of controlled substances and goes to court and winds up in the Seed. He thinks he was facing 20 years in Raiford, not just any prison but "THE FLORIDA STATE PRISON".

Nothing could be further from the truth. He was probably a first offender and not facing anything more than probation. In Florida people are sentenced according to guidelines which rank offenses by their severity. Drug offenses are not very severe. However, in a worst case senario, a person with numerous prior convictions, could face alot of time in prison for somewhat minor offenses.

In order to scare young offenders judges will always tell them that they face alot of time in prison even though they know its not true. In the early to mid 70's, when courts were still sending young offenders to the Seed, they did it pre trial or as a condition of probation.

Pre Trial means that if person entered the Seed, or another drug rehab program, and completed it the charges against them were dismissed. The judges like this because it gives a chance for young offenders to straighten themselves out without having a criminal record. If a person quit or was kicked out of the Seed , while they were in  Pre trial, there case simply goes back in the hopper and continues as if it just started. In most cases they were sent to another program or given a different plea deal which was usually probation.  

If on probabtion the person would have to complete the program or risk being in violation of probation. If they violated they could be subject to county jail time, usually less than 1 year.

The threats, made regularly by staff, of being sent to some hardcore prisons where you would almost be certainly beaten and raped was part of the implied violence made by staff that we discussed in other threads.  

Finally, why Raiford ? Florida has many prison facilities. Why would the State Department of Corrections, send a young offender to a prison which houses death row and other harccore prisoners doing life for crimes like murder, rape, kidnapping ect..? They wouldn't because each prisoner is classified and sent to a prison based on their classificiation. Muderers dont usually wind up in the same cell as a young drug offender.

The use Raiford, as threat, was just part of the Seed dogma. Just like the come down sessions when people would say if you were on the streets....... all the is horrible stuff would happen to you. The use of Raiford by kids in the group was just a way of them building their egos or credibility in the group.

So even more than 30 years after the fact people like Trucker do not even realize that they were suckers not truckers.

Finally, to Mark that was a great article.

The Seed Discussion Forum / How did your program end ?
« on: November 26, 2005, 02:52:00 PM »
This is really an off shoot of the "Why did you stay away" thread.

For me I was in the 5 month (on average, program length was double if you were sent by court) program for 13 1/2 months. I had one refresher and one start over. I started at Tropical Park and then went to Broward (SR 84) when Barker got chicken shit and left Dade.

For about the first 8+ months I fought the program like a motherfucker. That was the reason for the refresher and start over. I didn't like the Seed and I was angry at the world for being in there. I knew it was all a bunch of shit by I had no real way of fighting it. I was 14 years old, 5'0" and weighed about 95 lbs.

After I got started over , I was away from home for 36 days the last time. I was then on the phase where you go to school but come in after school everyday and all day on weekends. I almost failed 10th grade due to excessive absences.

I then became an old comer and thats pretty much when my program ended. I continued going to the Seed my required week nights and one weekend day but I basically stopped participating in anything and everyting. I was rarely called on in group and most of the time a staff member would let me do bathroom sign in or some other worthless endeavor to kill off the time. It was weird I didn't fight them and they didn't fight me. Sort of a like an unwritten truce.

This goes on for about 5 months and I had putting my name in for graduation. (Remember in those days you had to sign in for graduation or to become an old comer ect...) I am being a good kid and not making waves but still not being graduated. I made great grades in school which saved me from failing. Nobody said anything to me and I was too scared to ask staff anything.  

Then my parents after over 13 months finally started becoming a little tired off all the games but for some reason I had to graduate I couldn't just quit going.  Most of my friends had graduated or quit the program. I was a real life old timer at the age of 15.

On July 4, 1974 my parents scheduled a meeting with staff concerning my status. We arrived at our appointed time and waited until Penny (the black lady who could realy sing) meet with us. I was almost as scared then as I was on my intake interview. The meeting was somewhat awkward as my parents began firing away at Penny as to why I had not been graduated when other seemingly less deserving kids did.  She had no answers and my parents became even more aggreessive demanding to know how my continued participation was going to benefit me. The basically told Penny that they thought I had gotten enough out of the program and that I should be graduated. Penny sat stunned and almost didn't know what to say.

In retrospect I guess staff was not used to being challenged specially on what the program was doing for a particular kid. Penny then conceded that she was not in position to make a decision on this matter and that it would be up to John Underwood. She left the room and we waited for Underwood. It must have been about 10-15 minutes but it seemed like hours then. While waiting for Underwood I'll concede I was as nervous as a whore in church. If things went well I got my long awaited freedom if not it was back to the group but this time having really challenged the staff in regards to the purpose of the program. In other words I was really scared of this meeting backfiring on me.

Underwood gets to the meeting and greets my parents and even smiles at me. My father had always liked Underwood the most of any staff member, and even to this day will swear by Underwood but not by Barker, Libby or anyone else. He felt Underwood was a straight shooter and would level with him. Things could not have gone better for me. My father told Underwood that they believed I had got all I could from the program and Underwood actually agreed. I almost fainted. The discussion then turned to the manner in which I would be graduated. Underwood told me I would not graduate that day because it would not look right to graduate under these circumstances. I wasn't going to argue, just knowing this ordeal would end soon was enough for me.

The meeting concludes a few minutes later with my parents leaving and me heading back to the group. It was one of the few times Underwood said something nice to me. He congratulated me and sticking it out and never quiting.

A few days later I arrive late to the evening meeting and did not put my name on the list to graduate. I was disappointed but resigned to the fact that I would have to go to a few more meetings. At the end of the meeting Libby who was leading the rap that night calls out my name and I nervously stand up. She then announces I graduated and the whole place goes into applause. I get to yell out "We sing jingle bells..." and the meeting ends. I shake hands with a number of people and leave the SR 84 facilty for the last time.

To this day I remember feeling an overwhelming feeling of relief. Knowing that I did not have to go back to the group another day was an awesome feeling. Not having to ask permission to go to the store or a footabll game was also a relief. I was finally free and I really didn't know how to feel.

The reason I didn't go back is that there was nothing for me to go back to. I never realy felt like I was a part of the group or that I belonged in the group. I knew it was all a bunch of shit but I was just glad my own personal nightmare and hell was ending. I was so happy and relieved to be gone I had no desire to return. Leaving for me was easy. The old timers meetings were nothing but a bunch of bs and I wasn't go to go if I did not have to. [ This Message was edited by: FueLaw on 2005-11-26 12:00 ]

The Seed Discussion Forum / Happy Holidays John Underwood
« on: November 26, 2005, 10:56:00 AM »
good one, that was funny !

The Seed Discussion Forum / THE WRITING WAS ON THE WALL
« on: October 10, 2005, 01:01:00 PM »
Good question. I stayed because I was 14-15 years old and my parents made me stay. Also I was under the (mistaken) assumption that If I left (split the program) I could somehow be placed in juvenile hall. I was also scared and had no place to really go. I had never worked and had no real ability to go out on my own and take care of myself.

One of my biggest and most depressing memories was sitting in the group and feeling stuck and hopeless.

The Seed Discussion Forum / Dear Art,
« on: October 06, 2005, 11:06:00 AM »
The Seed and it's successor programs hurt way more people than they ever helped. The damage is impossible to determine. The labeled people failures who did not complete the program or who had slips or relapses. Young kids had this drilled into their heads for 12 hours a day everyday. Are you trying to say this did not have a detrimental effect on kids? Are you trying to say that programs such as this did not push some people over the edge? What if a kid was truely mentally ill,how were incompetent staff members,like John Underwood & others, going to help them? The bastards and bitches on staff could barely help themselves how in the world could they really help others?

I think it is rather funny that Seed will take credit for any possible success stories but yet take no responsibilty for any of the failures. Why is that? [ This Message was edited by: FueLaw on 2005-10-06 08:08 ]

The Seed Discussion Forum / Dear Art,
« on: October 06, 2005, 10:47:00 AM »
There are plenty more Greg, I am only searching Florida, not federal or any other State. The damage the Seed, Straight and others caused to society in unbelievable. I know of one other case where one Seed grad killed another, while out stealing cars, but he was a juvenile at the time and therefore I can't access the record.

Thanks Art/Libby/Underwood ect....

ps. LOL about the attorney's.

The Seed Discussion Forum / Dear Art,
« on: October 06, 2005, 10:33:00 AM »
Another member of the Seed/Department of Corrections honor role. I was on the front row with this dude. ... =974943705

The Seed Discussion Forum / Dear Art,
« on: October 06, 2005, 10:12:00 AM »
No Problem Greg, below is another Underwood special. This kid was like 10-11 when he went in the Seed. Kid had a druggie attitude. His Sister was in the Seed also. She was a few years older. A Very good friend of mine was married to her about 5-6 years after she got out of the Seed. She wound up a basket case, mentally ill alcoholic, and her brother in prison.

Mr. Nelson is currently in Federal custody. Review his prison histroy and ask how did the Seed help him ? ... =969026032[ This Message was edited by: FueLaw on 2005-10-06 07:13 ]

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