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An open discussion about the troubled parent industry

What lengths will they NOT go through to keep kids in programs? I think it can be expected that they will do anything within their legal rights, without question. Like any other business it’s loyalty is to itself and to create sustained long term profits and it will always place it’s own interests before competing interests, and that includes the teen and family if they get in the way. That is the legal obligation of any corporate business, programs are no exclusion. The only sense of morality or accountability is to itself, if providing the illusion of successful results is cheaper than getting real results, then programs will do it. Your average shareholder doesn’t care what the company is doing to make a profit as long as those profits outweigh the legal ramifications of it’s actions.  I don’t think programs should be trusted to run under their own moral authority with that kind of risk. No one has less rights than a troubled teen in a program. Even mass murderers have the right to due process of law. Prison guards cannot psychoanalyze prisoners under threats of punishment. There is no other area in our society that permits that kind of totalitarian control over someone, and there are varieties of abuses that can occur here that are undefined under our laws and/or very difficult to prosecute and place accountability within the program organization. Teens face many situations in programs that are psychologically harmful, and very little of it could ever truly be prosecuted as abuse under law.

Like Samara mentioned before, is it abusive to use threats as motivation, such as being sent to a worse program, or scaring parents by saying they will be dead, insane, or in jail? Is manipulating the communication between family and friends abuse? Is it abusive to manipulate teens’ behaviors with peer pressure that is given under the coercive direction of the staff? Is it abuse to force kids to focus on personal problems and endure therapy without their consent under threat of punishment?  These places can act like a pyramid, or multilevel marketing scheme capable of using the most insidious forms of group dynamics only in this case the kids are selling lies to each other in order to gain their own freedom, but that may be a legitimate business model in behavior modification. This list could go on and on, but much of it will find it’s way around the law, or lack thereof, without much difficulty. There is no reason to believe that programs wouldn’t utilize any number of methods at the expense of the teen rather than the program.

Quote from: "Awake"

I really believe it is important to understand how negative feedback can be abusive and how that is facilitated in troubled teen programs.

Whooter, let’s say for instance I am a staff in a program and we are in a group session together. At some point you were dishonest about something, anything really, maybe you were caught hiding a nose ring that was part of your old image that you weren’t supposed to have. Let’s say I turn to another member in the group besides you and ask, “Hey so and so, when someone lies, what does that make them?”

In fact can someone else other than Whooter answer this for me? When someone lies what does that make them?

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This is sort of a snap shot.  We really dont know the history of this child.  Maybe the staff has been working with this persons' honesty issues and they havent responded very well and finally decided to bring it up in group.  Before sending the kid home or giving up on them it is important to see if they respond to peer pressure maybe.

Are you saying that a program’s manipulation of peer pressure can be abusive? I would agree with that.


To clarify a point I was making, If I go around the room and ask each person ‘If someone lies, what does that make them?’ and they all respond, ‘they are a liar’, and then I turn to you,( and perhaps you may reflect on your own behavior here on fornits), and ask you, Whooter, what do you think that makes you?

What is your honest response to that?

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Quote from: "Awake"

Quote from: "Whooter"

Quote from: "Awake"

Is giving negative feedback abusive?

No I wouldnt consider it abusive and sometimes it can be effective with some kids.  Letting kids know they will not get pizza because of various reasons.  The kids that do well get rewarded with a night out, extra money to spend at the store etc.

Giving negative feedback can never be considered abusive? I disagree Whooter. If you were a teen in a program  and a staff called you a lowlife piece of shit to get you to behave in the manner they want, I don’t think that would be ethical. I would consider that abuse. Wouldn't you?

I didnt say negative feedback can never be considered abusive.  I said I dont consider negative feedback abusive.  In fact it can be effective with many kids.  I think anything can be abusive if you want it to be.  You can hold a gun to a kids head at night to force him to brush his teeth, which would be abusive, but that doesn't mean that brushing your teeth is abusive or telling the child he will miss afternoon snack the next day because he failed to brush his teeth.   If a staff used language as you described then they should be fired on the spot.

I’m guessing what you meant to say then is that you believe negative feedback is abusive in certain respects. How do you determine when negative feedback is abusive in behavior modification and when it is not?

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Quote from: "Awake"

Quote from: "Whooter"

Quote from: "Awake"

I'm more interested in what you would consider abusive in this sense.

Any type of physical violence to try to change a kids behavior would be considered abusive in my opinion.  Say, hitting a child with a stick every-time they made a mistake.  This would not be considered positive feedback and would not further build a child's self esteem or self worth.

I hear that. So does that mean anytime behavior modification is used in a way does not give the child positive feedback and build their self esteem it is abusive? Or only in the case of physical violence?

If positive feedback or and increased self esteem is not attained then it is not abusive it would just be ineffective in my opinion.



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Is giving negative feedback abusive?

Quote from: "Awake"

Quote from: "Whooter"

The use of Behavior Modification is not abusive and can be used to increase a childs self esteem.  Allow them to grow and succeed and celebrate their milestones.  I think the stories of straight and the seed and places like CEDU have over-shadowed fornits to the point where they believe all programs are like those were.

So you believe that behavior modification is never, and never has been, abusive?  If you don’t believe that can be true, what about in the context of force? Can it be abusive then?

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Not at all, Behavior Mod can be abusive like anything else.  But it doesnt have to be to be effective.



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Well you would be right in thinking that bevavior mod doesn't have to be effective to benefit the program owners. We certainly can't discount that money does motivate those applications which best suit the investors. I'm more interested in what you would consider abusive in this sense.

Quote from: "Awake"

There’s no harm in admitting you’re confused.

Of course not!  People should not feel bad for being confused or admitting to a mistake,  I think you may tend to be too hard on people, awake.  If you point out peoples mistakes too much they may tend to not want to open up or share their trust.   I was just reading too quickly and thought you had included Behavior Modification.

 I don’t know how other people feel, but I’m sorry if what I said felt harsh to you.  And as it concerns troubled teen programs we should not hold back on pointing out what is being overlooked. I’m sorry you have taken it personally, confusion occurs anytime someone is expected to act in a situation in which they don’t have all the information. Do you think you really should feel the need to present facts about the troubled teen industry dishonestly because you get the impression you are being threatened?

I am not trained in the area but I think the key is protecting and increasing  the self esteem and insuring that the child is building his/herself towards a point where they become self sufficient and independent.  The child should earn his way using a reward system or step system where the child works his/her way through, build confidence by succeeding in their challenges.  Incentives should be added like trips to the city, more freedoms in daily activities, special foods, social activities etc. similar to what parents use at home.

You are not knowledgeable in the area of thought reform, or mind control, or coercive persuasion, but you DO know that the troubled teen industry has roots in using such methods, yet you are describing methods that are used in thought reform. You say “ key is protecting and increasing  the self esteem”. If  this is the difference between an unethical use of thought reform, and an ethical use of behavior modification, then how do you think you can MAKE someone improve their self esteem?

Quote from: "Whooter"

Quote from: "Awake"

Well Whooter, there is no socially accepted definition of the point where mind control, thought reform, or ‘brainwashing’ crossed the line into what you call ‘crippling’ ‘abusive’ or ‘harmful’. So, in your opinion, what makes one program’s use of these techniques ‘good’ and another’s ‘bad’?

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As long as the techniques are utilized in such a way as to increase a childs self esteem and they use positive feed back or reinforcement then I would say it is a safe model.  


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How do you think thought reform or mind control can be used to make someone improve their self esteem?

From what little I have read on the subject I dont think that they can.  Do you think Behavior Modification is abusive?

I don’t understand. You just said that programs can be good if they use mind control or thought reform techniques to improve the teen’s self esteem. Did you mean to say something else?

I'm thankfulll fffoooorrr...... this cheese sandwich. Slice o cheese between two buns.... amen.