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Messages - landyh

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61
The Seed Discussion Forum / Some insight(s)
« on: November 22, 2005, 08:53:00 PM »
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On 2005-11-22 11:40:00, Antigen wrote:

"More evidence that the road to hell is paved w/ good intentions. Dude, much of that "awareness" you gained at the tender age of 9 was simply not the truth. The truth is that, given the right circumstances to provide perceived authority over another, yes indeed, a 9yo kid can impeach and pressure a grown man to the point of emotional breakdown. But do you truely and honestly think that the program dogma that spewed forth from that 9yo boy's mouth was accurate assessment? Do you think you actually had some special powers of perception? Or do you think maybe it just seemed that way cause, so long as you were spouting the party line, everyone in the room seemed to agree with you and defer to your authority?



I had a very lonely childhood due to having believed what you just said. There I was, about 9 or 10, telling off my elders, busting them for unSeedlinglike comportment and all that and getting all kinds of strokes for it. Why wouldn't I believe what all of my elders said? I liked hearing that I made sense and had unusual wisdom and clarity. I was completely taken up in the moment to the point where I treated my schoolmates and neighbor kids as inferiors. After all, I had the gift of Seed awareness. I was a good little honorary Seedling who would go on to do great things. Them? Poor bastards, 90% of them were destined to grow up to be druggise. It would be sad, I thought, to have to watch that. But maybe I could reach some of them before it was too late. Oh now THAT made me very popular!  :roll:

WHEN SPIDERS UNITE, THEY CAN TIE DOWN A LION  
-- Ethiopian Proverb


"

I just spent twenty writing a billiant reply which is now food for the cyber gods. I don't have the energy for quite that level of brilliance so this will have to suffice even if it happens to be less worthy. If you are asking if I recognize the involvement of my ego in those experiences then the answer is yes. Do I agree with your argument that awareness was an illusion? Not at all. Can I not learn about others as I learn about myself. Could anyone not see how someones set of fronts were something they used in spite that they no longer served. I have my own conflicts from being there twice. I acknowlege that but the early seed was something different from what it evolved to. So I sit with you on some of this while at the same time I have to ask by virtue of what are you able to attack this percieved sin of "awareness" without being awash in guilt of the same crime in and of your very statement. Yet there is much I agree with in terms of this lttle gift as a source of validation. Am I bad because I needed that validation? The answer to that very questions is the road down which I traveled to being all  f*'d up in the first place. And so we go on...Peace

62
The Seed Discussion Forum / seed'70
« on: November 22, 2005, 07:47:00 PM »
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On 2005-09-20 17:51:00, tom s. wrote:

"I don't recall a Dupont or any reps from anywhere.It seems in the time between my two seed sojourns they had absorbed a lot of new members,old staffers returned,and new ones knighted.Now I recall that Mavis Was there,so that means Happy was too.There were a few entrusted from the group to lead meetings and were possibly acting staff members.Renee was a tough n.y.B,but had an enduring sense of humor.Rick and Linda were a married staff couple of mediocre temperment.Rick was pretty funny.Linda was nice.Charley Oats appeared to be deeply sincere about learning human nature and discussing his lifes' mistakes in those terms.He was a great group leader and a tough staff member.He had a wiley way about him as though the nature of true deviousness was awash in his system and an incredibly believable infectious smile.His eyes twinkled when he did grin,but I could not pinpoint the something in myself that distrusted him.There was an indescribeable edge he had or exuded that perhaps not everyone picked up on.That feeling always made me darkly aware of his presence.He had his heart grabbed by Darlene who was just as deeply sly and a discussion leader and staffer of rank.She was tough and perhaps fair and reminded me of howdy doody-red hair-freckles-howdys'face-what can I say.I heard her and Charley got married.I even heard that they went and shot up together.I can't even imagine what that would have done to their relationship.There was a Maureen also.There was this young lady named Donna who by her good nature alone I think slid quietly into the upper echelon.We were all singing "When Irish Eyes Are Smiling"led by Art of course,and he was looking through the crowd inquisitively like someone trying to pinpoint a bacon-cheeseburger with their nose-and I realized what he was searching for.Quite a few of us caught on.It was the unmistakeable voice of an Irish Angel.My god what a voice.Art asked her if she wouldn't mind singing it for us all alone and she obliged.I gotta tell you I had goosebumps and tears!She was tall with dark hair and a very kind face and a nice disposition.I would love to hear her sing again.I believe she became a staff member,but I bet it was too strenuous or should I say her strength probably overcame the piousness necessary to continue in that mode.I draw a blank on other staffers but I know they were there.     "

Its funny I remember the little devious smile of Charlie but as nine year old kid i idealized him and he was always real good to me. I am a little mixed up was renee the little bitty junkie prostitute with really long hair or am I mixing her up with Libby?

63
The Seed Discussion Forum / seed'70
« on: November 22, 2005, 07:31:00 PM »
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On 2005-09-17 17:50:00, tom s. wrote:

"I was somehow absorbed into being a participant.I remember being with them 6 months and then some more in '71.A bunch of us kids carried really heavy flagstones from down the street behind the seed at s. Andrews.These we placed down outside the house.As the rustic style floor became larger in area as we accumulated more of these flat stones,someone also built an overhead and presto-we had a meeting area much larger than the little cozy house we sadly left behind.At that point it appeared that the friendliness was washed away,but it existed more as an underground movement.I had appeared at the seed because I was running from my brother in law.I had to live w/my sister and him off and on because homelife was not  possible peacefully.Well neither was the solution.Eventually I  was placed into several other members' homes mostly to keep me apart from the flash point that would ensue from home life.Really,all I had to do was stand at the front door and an arguement would greet me-so-that was actually the basis for my mistaken entry into the orginization.The sessions at S.Andrews became heated.More staff members appeared.Charley Oats,Darlene,Rick and Linda-there's more but their names and faces don't always surface in clarity.Memory is sometimes like those magic eight-balls.You get what appears on the little window with a good shake!I remember when they got a pink toilet seat for what they would refer to as the hot seat.I think it was on a toilet.People got come down on hard.A lot of it was unnecessary.Many of us were accused of having attitudes of heavy druggies and we were entirely too young or inexperienced to know what in the world they were talking about.(Check my other post about the seed song)I was put on the hot seat because I liked someone.The girl was put on the seat because she was accused of playing games.Relationships were not allowed.But as youth flowers,so does the heart.I expect that's why so many cars that went by were accompanied by screams of "the seed sucks!!!"and so on.Those were humerous interludes spaced entirely too far apart.  "

Charlie still had long hair and was cool in my memory, Darlene even at nine I found that red head to be a little antagonistant shall we say as opposed to the word that comes to mind. Funny I remembered Mavis as being a New Yorker until I read your post and it clicked. And they were hugely helpful both her and Hap and loving and tough as nails all at the same time. I was so sad  when Hap and Mavis disapeared and Charlie especially I looked up to him so much that it made me really sad when he was gone.

64
The Seed Discussion Forum / seed'70
« on: November 22, 2005, 07:18:00 PM »
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On 2005-09-17 00:48:00, rjfro22 wrote:

"Tom S.

           I remember the house on 3rd ave.  in 1970

Did Pam  have long blond hair ?  , she was very beautiful from what I remember. I was about 16  at that time as well time and they served free meals,  which attracted a lot of the young street hippies at that time

Do you rmember Maureen, she was like a staff member,  and Hap and Mavis, I remember a wedding there as well, it was very Billy Jack like, that was a great discription. People came and went as they pleased. No one tried to make me cut my hair , lots of  hugging and genuine caring, it was a very special time. There was a record player up front with several of rock  albums .  I  remember   Maureen  getiing down to "Mississippi Queen" by Mountain.  I remember telling my friends about this cool place called the seed.  Every time some one knew came in we really wanted to help them, I remember really caring about everybody back then.  My friend Tom W. turned me on to the seed back then and he was only 14 at the time, we both Just walked in, and we were greeted with open arms, and of course a free meal , we used t hitch hike to the meetings from hollywood and some of the time someone would ride us home.  [ This Message was edited by: rjfro22 on 2005-09-17 00:54 ]"

I was there then and it was a great place at that time I was only nine which made me somewhat conspicuous for that time. It was a place of love then what happened for God's sake.

65
The Seed Discussion Forum / seed'70
« on: November 22, 2005, 07:13:00 PM »
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On 2005-09-16 20:08:00, tom s. wrote:

"Anyone here remember the seed 1970?Innocently posing as a hippie house on S.E.3'rd st.Ft.Laud. I think with a big metal peacesign sculpture on the lawn about 41/2- 5 feet in diameter-yellow and also green.I thought it was a used jean store.I went running in there february '70 and found myself in a very Billy Jack community school-like group of people around my age-15 and younger and some older,and Art in a room w/a desk,Pam,a really sweet girl about 20 who cooked for the group,and a sort of innocent seeming ambling about of all,eventually evolving into a session.Anyone remember back that far?  "

I was there and I was nine years old and I remember Pam. I had forgot about the sign. Thank you.

66
The Seed Discussion Forum / More Trivia
« on: November 22, 2005, 07:08:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-11-22 14:54:00, Antigen wrote:

"I'm glad you came along too, landyh. I don't know anybody else but me who was involved at such a young age. Now, I never sat in on group, far less on those vaunted bar room stools (btw, they had those at Straight too... anyone else find that ironic?) But I was in on the endless clatches at Denny's after open meeing on SR 84 and a good bit of Programming in our home, around the diningroom table and whenever I tagged along w/ my brother and the New Crusty Nostrils.



I definitely remember the rush of having grown ups bow to my impressive "Awareness". Looking back, of course, I was such an obnoxious prig! But, what's done is done.



Also, I think you probably can answer some questions about the way things were before the ominous 1313 Andrews ave (well, 1315, actually... but the other way sounds better, uh?) There's a legend that the first group started out on Art's yacht tied up at the Playboy Mansion or some such. Any truth to that? Cause the way I remember Art's telling of it, he had started getting the building ready to open before the first Seedling ever arrived and found that his entire work crew were all druggies. So he sat them down and started feeding them beans or something along those lines. Which story is closer to the facts?

If quitting drugs means joining the war on terrorism, does this portend the fire bombing of Amsterdamn ?

--Felton Manifestation


"

I don't mean to keep double replying to the same posts I just realized though that I didn't fully answer your question. First I was probably a little piggish no doubt as well but I still think in regard to my first experience that the validation and attention I recieved during that time has helped me to this day with some of the esteem issue that probably got me there in the  first place. How old were you and what time frame did you go thhere in? The little house was much more in my mind AA oriented and this was partly because of the influence of Hap and Mavis I am not  at all sure about this but I think pulling away to a greater degree from those AA roots may have been why Hap and Mavis left. I know something happened.  Being in AA now and understanding how in spite of  the personalities involved its loose framework is a large part of what makes it such a wonderful program and I think they made a mistake when they pulled away from that. I think we even passed the basket there I can't remember if that continued later as it does it AA. Hopefully more will come back to me because you guys have already triggered so much that I had forgotten.

67
The Seed Discussion Forum / More Trivia
« on: November 22, 2005, 06:54:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-11-22 14:54:00, Antigen wrote:

"I'm glad you came along too, landyh. I don't know anybody else but me who was involved at such a young age. Now, I never sat in on group, far less on those vaunted bar room stools (btw, they had those at Straight too... anyone else find that ironic?) But I was in on the endless clatches at Denny's after open meeing on SR 84 and a good bit of Programming in our home, around the diningroom table and whenever I tagged along w/ my brother and the New Crusty Nostrils.



I definitely remember the rush of having grown ups bow to my impressive "Awareness". Looking back, of course, I was such an obnoxious prig! But, what's done is done.



Also, I think you probably can answer some questions about the way things were before the ominous 1313 Andrews ave (well, 1315, actually... but the other way sounds better, uh?) There's a legend that the first group started out on Art's yacht tied up at the Playboy Mansion or some such. Any truth to that? Cause the way I remember Art's telling of it, he had started getting the building ready to open before the first Seedling ever arrived and found that his entire work crew were all druggies. So he sat them down and started feeding them beans or something along those lines. Which story is closer to the facts?

If quitting drugs means joining the war on terrorism, does this portend the fire bombing of Amsterdamn ?

--Felton Manifestation


"
I can't state with cetainty the yacht story but I remembered it when I read it just now. My sister may have been on the boat I 'll ask her  as soon as I can. I already left her a message that she needs to get over here. I hope she does as she would probably have more clarity because she was 4 years older than me. The yacht happened its the details I can't verify.

68
The Seed Discussion Forum / More Trivia
« on: November 22, 2005, 06:45:00 PM »
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On 2005-11-22 13:11:00, Anonymous wrote:

"I think I remember you landy.  You were a cute little kid and a smart one to boot if my memory serves me right."

BTW I meant to say thank you for the wonderful compliments on the mini me. Thanks

69
The Seed Discussion Forum / More Trivia
« on: November 22, 2005, 06:31:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-11-22 13:47:00, Ft. Lauderdale wrote:

"Yep that was on Andrews but Tommy M. was sr 84.  But I think he may have been on 3rd ave as well.

Do you remember Bonny she was his sister in law. "


I know that name but I am not sure if I have an accurate picture of who she was. I was thinking the little house was just on a different part of andrew until you mentioned 3rd ave

70
The Seed Discussion Forum / More Trivia
« on: November 22, 2005, 06:21:00 PM »
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On 2005-11-22 13:22:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Blond Hair and alot of it I think..."

Yes! That's me.

71
The Seed Discussion Forum / More Trivia
« on: November 22, 2005, 06:18:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-11-22 13:11:00, Anonymous wrote:

"I think I remember you landy.  You were a cute little kid and a smart one to boot if my memory serves me right."


I hesitate to answer for fear of being sent to the "Hot Seat" for being in my ego but I suppose that would be an accurate description. As to the cute part on my first go round at nine my favorite thing about being there was that all the girls would pay alot of attention to me kisses and hug were OK because I was so little. I think I got lectured once during one of  those kisses when I slipped the (adult or late teen and pretty)girl a little tongue. I don't think she was quite  ready for that. When i look back on the fact that I was leading rap sessions at no more than ten years old I am kind amazed by it. Do I get a chance to remember who you are. I wonder if you remember me from little house, haunted house or strd 84

72
The Seed Discussion Forum / More Trivia
« on: November 22, 2005, 05:30:00 PM »
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On 2005-06-17 06:52:00, GregFL wrote:

"
Quote

On 2005-03-17 07:52:00, Anonymous wrote:







I also know from reading the posts that Greg hated every minute in the seed and has alot of pent up anger still from his time there and I respect that....but when someone comes along with wonderful carefree memories of love and peace from the seed....Greg comes down on them with Cult this and Cult that.



This forum should be a place that we can say what we want to without the shit hitting the fan and offending someone.






Man, somehow I missed this and never addressed it.



Anon, you are just wrong about your perceptions. While I did resent being put in the seed, there was a period of time while I was there that I bought into the whole seedling thing.  That passed quickly once I graduated.



I am not angry at my seed experience. Hell, it was over 30 years ago.  I moderate this forum for the sole purpose of discussion because I think for a lot of people it is important to confront what happened to them, and it is fun discussing issues with people with a common background.



Anon, this is a place where you can say whatever you want, but all forums, and this one included, have people that don't agree.  Expect that on a forum.  All I ask is we all respect each other and avoid personal attacks.



I do have strong opinions on this type of "treatment" for juveniles, but my opinion is just that, no more or less valid than yours or anyone else's here.  I will continue to express my opinion when the mood moves me.



 I wish you knew how hard I have worked to foster an environment of inclusion of everybody that went to the Seed on all sides of the issue and not just make this a soapbox for one side or the other. But that vision of the SDF requires participation and understanding of the goal of this website, and forums in general require tough skin sometimes because people openly express various opinions and even get testy with each other, and not everybody is able to carry on that type of conversation.



That being said, I am proud of the way the people in this forum have kind of become a community of people, not divided along pro-seed or anti-seed sentiments.



I hope you are also enjoying this forum and hope you participate often regardless of how you view your time spent in your childhood warehouse.



 "


I just found this place and don't feel as if it were an accident and while my first post was mostly very positive in view of my experience at  The Seed. Reading some of the opposing points of view has triggered some very emotional memories that are not at all positive.  I think my view is shaped uniquely by the fact that I went through the program twice before I was thirteen. The two experiences are vastly different. I realize I can sit on both sides of this experience depending on the time frame. Going from the voluntary experience at the little house on andrews during my first run through was a vastly different experience to the all out kiddnapping by my own parents when I went to St rd 84 on the second go round. I for one am glad that I can talk out of both sides of my mouth on the subject of The Seed in an honest way here. Because I have both hostility and love for the program pehaps I have something to share that bridges in someway the gulf between those too sides. Cheers and thanks for being there to help provide this forum. When I hit Google this morning I just knew it would be here and I am glad it is.

73
The Seed Discussion Forum / More Trivia
« on: November 22, 2005, 05:08:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-03-16 15:33:00, Thom wrote:

"
Quote

On 2005-03-16 11:20:00, Antigen wrote:


"...You mean you took yourself down there or asked mom to take you? I really don't know how that happened and I really would like to. I don't know why, exactly, just that it's family history. "




Must have been the latter, since I was not of driving age at the time. I chose to go to the Seed. I was not under any external threat or compulsion. I get the impression this was a bit unusual, but I guess it explains why I wasn't yelled at or locked in. I was not a flight risk.
"


My first time was voluntary too I followed my sister in I think she felt guilty that she had let start somking pot and drink with her when I was only nine. Seems to me that in that very early time it was all voluntary. Any body go back far enough like me to remember Hap and Mavis. Mavis's claim to faim (she was a tough ex drinker form New York) was in the Seed song she inserted the line "if you F**k up then I'll break your leg" and everybody would laugh but they didn't hurt anybody back then ever. Remember the "Hot Seat" I think it didn't start until we moved to the place that became the "Haunted House" If you got caught in "Bull Sh*t" you had to sit on a toilet while the group "helped" you through it. That was the closest thing to torture in those early days that I can remember.

74
The Seed Discussion Forum / More Trivia
« on: November 22, 2005, 04:50:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-03-10 11:49:00, GregFL wrote:

"There is some dissention on this board and even a thread of incredulty when it is mentioned that the seed used cultic methods.



Here is an account with my comments in parenthesis of how someone used to be recruited into the moonies back in the seventies. It may have changed or maybe not...



                 ________

Generally, the recruit meets organizational officials over a quiet dinner. Moon is not mentioned, religion is seldom broached. While you eat, you listen to their lectures and prayers and share in their singing, the recruiters constantly smile throughout the encounter. The youth is asked to attend a three-day workshop. (this is the common deceptive recruiting technique, in the seed it was done at the 'intake' and after wearing you down it was suggested to you to  "just sign yourself in for three days and then you can leave if you want).



The first recognition individuals have when arriving for the three day workshops, is that the followers of Moon regard each other as a family....(no comment necessary)



The recruit is not left alone.(right!) As the neighbors of the Moonie encampment in Pope Valley have attested to, they walk in pairs.(YES!) ... It becomes immediately apparent to you that you are not to be left alone and that all 'spiritual children'(or in our case, Seedlings) have someone of their opposite sex(for seedlings, same sex) from the family assigned to them. If you should wander off by yourself, someone will follow you and politely ask you to rejoin the group.(or as the case with the seed, tackle you to the ground and drag you back to the group) You are even escorted to the rest room." (same!)The book continues, "You also learn that there is a rigidly held schedule. There are specific times for eating, exercising, playing, singing, listening to lectures and discussing them.(and no, absolutely no, exceptions to the schedule) You are separated into small groups, led by a team leader who has to have perfect control, not approximate control.(yep!) From the beginning, the leader directs his or her group like a kindergarten teacher, telling you when to do this or that."(and how to talk, what to say and when and how to say it under the threat of punishment).



If the leaders of the group should slacken in their enthusiasm or diligence, they are sternly reprimanded.(in the seed, started over or demoted to junior staff) The recruit is rarely permitted to engage in any casual conversation with anyone.(in the seed, never) They are only allowed to speak about spiritual things(or in our case, seed approved things when called on) within a structured framework. Creativity is frowned upon, conformity is stressed.(and required) "All day you are bombarded by ideas and concepts," (12 hour per day structured groups) states The Puppet Master.(this was a book written on the moonies) "There is little relaxation, and so your resistance is low.(no relaxation at all at the seed). When you refrain from sharing or resist in any way, you are met with benevolent concern.(in the seed, confrontation) Peer approval is an important technique which subtly tells you to conform. The family members aim directly at your most vulnerable points: the need to belong, to feel useful and to feel love.(same as the seed) Throughout the workshop you are flooded with affection, hugs, pats, hand-holding and smiles."(same as the seed, but usually only when you were in compliance)



Recruits react to the regimental control by trying to please.(as a coping method, same in the seed) "But, you quickly learn that the only way to please is to conform,"(completely and absolutely) The Puppet Master states. "You succumb many times to small acts of conformity without realizing it.(yes!) You feel guilty when you hold back, and you are told that wanting to be alone is a symptom of fear and alienation." (being alone is never an option in the seed)It is at this point that the recruit is asked to join the movement.(in the seed, encouraged to 'work his program') The family member who has spent all the time with the specific recruit (oldcomer in the seed) will beg and plead for the recruit to stay.(and "get straight) There will even be tears along with promises. They will continue to implore until you decide to join," (get straight, and if they fail, the seed would assign someone else to work on you)The Puppet Master states.



After joining the Moonies, the recruit will be given about two weeks of adjustment. They call it "losing", a period when the recruit's desires become nothing. Recruits are allowed to return home for one visit (earn the right to speak to your parents at group), but they must be accompanied or tailed by a Moonie. After that one visit, the recruit's communication with his natural family is reduced to mainly correspondence, and that diminishes rapidly.(this is a difference in voluntary cults because the family in essense joins the seed cult with you. If they don't, your contact is severely limited or forbidden as mine was with my mother)  "When you do step out into the world, it is a shock, a cultural shock," states The Puppet Master. "You are taught that everyone not in the movement is under the influence of Satan (or as with the seed..'unaware or druggies') and that you should mistrust them..... no doubt they are trying to take your mind away. You begin to fear the world and those in it. Thus you become dependent on the group for love and positive reinforcement. After alienation is complete, you are told that you can leave if you want."



After the "losing period" the regimentation becomes even more rigid. The recruit is required to adhere to even more demanding workshop schedules. They sleep five or six hours a day.(same in the seed, and studies show teenagers need much more sleep or they cannot function correctly) Their diet consists of starchy foods and low proteins.(early stages of the seed and when there for weekends) Often they fast for many days.(no fasting, but extremely limited proteins and liquids in early stages of the seed) The recruit must now fundraise and recruit others.(absolutely but recruiting was done thru parents in the seed) The recruit must sing and pray before meals, before classes, before work, before evening gatherings. Most songs are traditional or Korean hymns. Alcohol and drugs are forbidden.







 :eek: "


I like the references but the food thing at the very early Seed was a money thing the way I remember it. They had a kitchen right there in the main room. My second time at st rd 84 I thought the pb and j were still a cost issue. Not sure just the way I remember it.

75
The Seed Discussion Forum / More Trivia
« on: November 22, 2005, 04:38:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-03-09 04:47:00, Ft. Lauderdale wrote:

"OK here we go again. Singing those songs was to let certain emotions out that we were too cool to do. Hey it helped me.  I don't go around singing them today.(maybe I think I am too cool now)

 :silly: "


I agree I was uplifted and had fun with those songs and heck I was a kid. Does anybody remember the term we used to describe that spiritual uplift was it "high on life" not sure lots of things are fuzzy.

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