Fornits

Fornits Home for Wayward Web Fora
An open discussion about the troubled parent industry

Post the study.  Your word is worthless.  BTW, why did you create the login "Whooter" if you're just going to troll anon anyway?  What's the point?

Anyway, this so-called study, based on anonymous surveys, not any clinical data has been thoroughly debunked several times here already.  Post the "study" and I'll post the the obvious knock-outs of this flimsy marketing white paper.

Admins, it's time to link up "Whooter" to all of his anon posts again.  Under the previous agreement, this should happen immediately.

This was an independent study conducted by  Ellen Behrens, Ph.D., Canyon Research & Consulting, Inc.; Sarah (Salli) Lewis, Ph.D. and Ellen Leen-Feldner, Center for Research, Assessment, and Treatment Efficacy and Arkansas Institute of Developmental Science; Keith Russell, Ph.D., Outdoor Behavioral Healthcare Research Cooperative, University of Minnesota.

What I typically do is contact the research and consulting firm for the details if needed, but they are not going to give you the names of the participants or raw data if that is your need. I may be able to find the tables and graphs which they provided via a link.

I find it interesting that after all this time of demanding independent studies and then when provided you change your tune.  This occured when everyone was jumping up and down for regulation and licensure and then after they were regulatated you called the regulation agencies ineffective lol.  Are you going to place the researchers and research firms on your axis of evil list now?

As far as linking up posts.  I believe RobertBruce has been waiting for his posts be linked up for some time now but there is some difficulty  getting it done on the present revision.  So any discussion on that topic will have to wait.

The outcome of any research is depending of who is paying the bill for this research.

Who else is willing to pay for it?  If you develop a new drug you need to come up with the 25 million or so yourself to have it tested, no one does this for free.  What Aspen did was choose an outside agency which does research for a living and then get a university to work in parrallel with them.  This is about as independent as you can get.

He's conceded your argument already by resorting to ad hominems.

He has argued clearly and there have been no personal attacks of any kind from him.  Why do you troll this thread?

I know I probably shouldn't respond, but here goes:

In response to:

"FYI, the truth about mail at Aspen ranch -all mail, incoming and outgoing is screened by staff. This Nigel troll is just carefully making his point by not lying directly, but leaving out the obvious. That is, he's intentionally vague as a trolling tactic. "

This is not how it is done right now (whether it used to be done this way, I don't know).  My son writes his letters and is not required to show anyone its contents.  In previous letters he has complained about The Aspen Ranch and wrote about how horrible it is.  I truly beleive that his letters are private and confidential.  

As for the fact you think I'm "trolling", as I have said before, I probably can't convince you, so this will be the last time I address that (probably).  I am a parent of a current student at Aspen Ranch.  I am not an advocate of the school, and at this time I don't know whether I think it was a good decision to send him there or not.  I am evaluating the program and I will pull my son the second I think I should.  I have been posting here to ask for advice to help my with my own  decision making.  I will continue to do so for the duration of my son's stay, and will also give updates when he comes home.  I have listened and evaluated all the advice I have been given here, and I will continue to do so.

And to this:

"Nigel’s son is going to be fine. We all know that."

I don't know this (although I hope for it on a daily basis).

Thanks Nigel.  It can be tough to ignore the trolls sometimes, but there are many of us who are interested in your updates and candid posting.  We would like you to continue.

You'll have to explain your business model, then. How do families determine the cost, or is this some reference to what you do with STICC? Losing a child is a horror, but you miss the point: families are trying to save their children by paying for the most expensive program thinking they are saving their child, they want protection. In light of that, your inability to understand how the extraordinary costs of programs conflict with the treatment looks like a dodge.

I dont do anything with STICC nor am I associated with it and I dont have a business model for programs.  The price of anything you purchase is determined via supply and demand.  If everyone stopped buying weed the price would drop to pennies.  If we found out that weed was a wonder drug that preserved life then demand would out run supply and you would pay thru the nose for a single blunt.  The same with programs... the more they build the lower the cost will be.  There are many people who cannot afford kidney transplants because there are not enough to go around.

ST has a history of not tolerating opposing viewpoints - they couldn't censor their forum enough so they locked it down. I would not encourage any parent to visit a site that still allows military-style boot camps for teens to advertise. At least on Fornits you are here to provide the opposing view, right? ST does not provide the same. Despite your criticism of Fornits, you are here and sharing your views. Program survivors aren't allowed at your table.

So your tried to rationalize your answer , but it is still no.  So one of the differences between us is I direct and encourage parents to learn as much as possible from all perspectives and you do not.

Someone needs to do a 10 yr. study, then.

I agree, the more studies the better

Now, now. I was merely pointing out AA is not a business interested in exploitation for profit. My views on finances are not an issue and not being discussed, right?

No it isn’t for profit.  Your point wasn’t clear, thats why I made the comment.  I dont see how the cost plays into this.

You forgot the simplest method: run the program name through an internet search engine, or is that something you would encourage parents to avoid?

That too. I would encourage parents to gain as much information as possible.  I know that many here are against parents branching out and doing this but I believe the more information they  get the better equipped they will be to make a decision.

Poster, do you believe that what happens to kids post-program is in no way connected to the treatment they received? Interesting, because by that logic you can't cite any "successes" years after graduation. Don't most programs parade out old alumni to impress potential paying parents? Show them the other side as well, then, and don't let what happened to Michael Reuben get swept under the rug or exploited by his father.

Interesting question.  If you have a child who has dropped out of school and has no interest in returning or interest in living by the basic family rules and then post program you have a child who completed college and has rebuilt their family ties then this could be considered a turn around by the program he/she attended.

On the other hand if the child is struggling with the same issues and also has a family history of addiction then the child may get turned around and placed on the right track but the addiction is going to always be with him/her.  The family and child knows this.  This is why a return to drugs or an overdose cannot be tied back to the program as a cause.  It is something that has always been there which there is no cure for.

People who attend AA meetings and then years later return to drinking cant stand there and blame AA for their regression.  I dont see how the 2 are tied together in that way, as one being the cause of the other.

Drug addiction is a life time struggle.  The best any of us can do is to stablize and educate people on the dangers of addiction.  The rest is up to the person themselves on how (and if) they wish to apply it.

Is anyone aware of other methods which are more effective?