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An open discussion about the troubled parent industry

Quote from: "Ursus"

Quote from: "DannyB II"

Quote from: "Ursus"

Quote from: "T-Rex"

Some of Texas's influential people that have attended MKP, that Ursus left out. Just shows Ursus has a problem with posting everything, which is why I am questioning his interests in posting information here on this subject.

They had nothing to do with my post. There was no reason for mentioning them. They were not "Doctor of any profession in writing supporting the claims here."

Oh they had everything to do with your post, I do declare. You just choose not to see it this way. It goes a long way in discrediting your allegations that MKP is coercing and abusing people.  

Danny wrote that he "didn't remember seeing anything from a Doctor of any profession in writing supporting the claims here," ... and ... I supplied text quoting two mental health professionals from the article itself, which he apparently missed, who felt that MKP was "fairly dangerous territory for an unprofessional" (Lang) and that "it rings of bad therapy and doesn't pass the smell test" (Hochman).

One Doctor who made a flippant comment of no consequence, which Ursus, proceeded to dramatize.

This was the only thing I addressed in my post, made clear by my highlighting and enlarging aforementioned text within Danny's post in my quote reply. Perhaps I didn't make that clear enough.

Nice try pal, you can keep spinning away until you knit a sweater. You do not meet the bar of being fair Ursus, you are bias and it reared it ugly head throughout your posts concerning this subject of Michael Scinto and the MKP.

Now I saw one mental health professional, please do not profess to say that Norris Lang is a professional in the mental health profession. He does not say this and being a psychotherapist I don't think qualifies you as a professional.
Ursus you have one Doctor who gave a haphazard opinion on MKP.

Jeesh you also failed to reveal that Michael Scinto was a drug addict, was in AA and continued to use. His father can't seem to maintain the status quo either, holed up in a motel, divorcing his second wife. There is obviously some emotional and mental issues that had been going on here.

But hey, lets just capture the highlights so we can put together a story, never mind about the real story.

:rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:  Whether Michael Scinto was or was not a drug addict has absolutely NOTHING whatsoever to do with your allegation that there was no "Doctor of any profession in writing supporting the claims here." I merely pointed out where said professionals expressed their concerns as to what transpires at these "New Warrior Training Adventures" ... in the very article in which you averred they did not exist.

Mike Scinto being a head case and a addict had everything to do with this story Ursus and you know this. It goes to his mental state, how cognizant he was, his emotions but utmost his condition. Was he taking drugs before, during and after the weekend retreat. What affect did they have on him. What else was going on with Mike.
There was only one professional of any credibility, thanks for trying to pass the other two by us. I really do believe you think the readers here are stupid.
OH, my mentioning Mike was a addict did have nothing to do with the fact no Doctors gave credible insight, your right.

IN FACT, since ya are hell-bent on introducing it into the conversation, that Michael Scinto had experienced difficulties with drug abuse prior to his weekend with the MKP folk, that he was introduced to MKP and exhorted to attend the NWTA via his AA sponsor Kim Sawyer, not to mention was pressured to share with the group and expose his soul by Sawyer re. childhood sexual abuse within the rubric of MKP ... all serves to underscore the egregious lack of professionalism of MKP as well as to HIGHLIGHT the very concerns the mental health professionals that I quoted spoke of. From the above article:

Oh, are you getting all upset because your posting of this story showed your lack of integrity to fair posting of stories.
First, since I know you have no knowledge of how Mike was asked to go to the weekend, I can put this one under ignorance. Second, you are not qualified to post your opinions on whether MKP was egregious in there lack professionalism or not. Third, please don't even try to tie it back into what your one professional Doctor said. Because he said nothing directly on the MIke Scinto circumstances.
Your trying very hard but your lacking hard evidence, your fabricating.

"According to the police report, Sawyer said that during the retreat Scinto told him about the abuse. It was then that Sawyer told Scinto it would be best to share his recently unearthed memory with the group. Sawyer also told Scinto there was a licensed psychologist on hand that could help him if he wished."

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Where was this "licensed psychologist" and what the hell did he do for Michael Scinto, as far as helping him deal with dredging up these old and festering wounds? It was after Micheal Scinto's New Warrior Training Adventure, and apparently in response to what it unleashed, that he went off the deep end, ultimately blowing out his brains with a shotgun.

Once again I will state, you have no authority/knowledge concerning MKP aside from what you read. I have seen the same posts you have and nothing is conclusive at all.
Everyone knows there are no licensed therapists and we want it to stay that way.
You have no evidenced as usual except your opinion of why Mike blew his brains out.
Maybe he wanted to do it before weekend, maybe he planned to do it while at the weekend or on the drive home. Maybe he did not get laid when he returned home from the weekend or found his girlfriend getting laid, maybe , maybe , maybe.
Ursus you don't know shit, so stop acting like you do.

The long term private program I finally ended up at was the last option. For several years actually my parents tried all the local options, and I would just manipulate my way out of them. I would just sit there and laugh at therapists, and say nothing. When I was put in a hospital I just lied  and promised to be sober and said I'm fine and they let me out. When I would get arrested I would say it will never happen again. When they decided to put me in community based residential treatment I ran away and got high and they kicked me out. I would be put in hospital again for being suicidal, but they would always let me out in a matter of days or weeks. The community options aren't designed to be long term, and didn't work for someone like me who is willing to do anything to stay the way they are. I was a suicidal drug addict, who regularly committed crimes and had no regard to authority, of my family or the law.

My family really couldn't afford long term treatment, they had insurance to pay for everything prior from their work, but out of pocket was difficult. But they had no other choice and sold things, and cut back on expenses. My own actions cost my family a lot of money, and took away from things my siblings would have got. My own selfishness caused great suffering and setbacks for my entire family. Back then though, I felt like I was the victim. I was very self centered and arrogant, and really didn't care about anybody else but myself. I wanted what I wanted, and I would do anything, say anything, and go anywhere to do it. I actually had so many issues and such a long and sordid history that the private program was reluctant to take me at first, but my family begged and pleaded and told them it was the only option left. Had I been left to my own devices back then, I would of surely ended up in jail, or dead.

The program knew I was suicidal and put me on suicide watch and, literally would watch me 24 hrs a day, and it worked. I even tried once and was forcefully stopped, I was held down and kept from doing it and then talked down from the emotional state I was in. This is something that cannot be provided in a community option, or by parents themselves. It might seem extreme, and it was to me at the time, it seemed excessive. But to look back at my behavior in an honest way now makes me ashamed, and also understanding of all the actions the people surrounding me were forced to take. When you are a minor, people aren't going to sit around and let you destroy yourself. Your parents are ultimately responsible, and when I'd get in trouble with the law they were constantly reminded of that. I created so many problems for my family, it makes me sad to think about it. I hope in the long run they can forgive me for how I was, but I don't expect it really. It took me some time to learn to take personal accountability for everything I did, and not look at myself as a victim of my family, or treatment programs, or the law. It was me, it was all me, and people were just trying to intervene before it was too late. The program saved my life, by saving me from myself. It's pathetic to admit something like that, but its 100% accurate.

Quote from: "Dysfunction Junction"

Yes, traditional residential treatment not including Aspen or any other programs.  30 to 90 day stays are up to 80% effective.  Programs run up to 2 years, cost fifty times more and are not nearly as effective based on one biased survey by Aspen marketing.

Hmmm.  I didnt see "Traditional"... nor "30-90 days".. nor was cost included as a differential.  Seems you are trying to change things here.  Its always good to go back to the quote we are talking about,  Lets take another look:

Quote from: "Dysfunction Junction"

Whooter also keeps saying "up to 80%" success, but that is not concluded by Behrens, it's concluded by other researchers using longitudinal clinical studies of residential treatment and has nothing whatsoever to do with Aspen programs or Behrens.

So just to clear it up…..other researchers conclude up to 80% success using longitudinal Clinical studies of residential Treatment.



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Quote from: "Anne Bonney"

Quote from: "Whooter"

Anne, I will let you and DJ add in the disclaimers.  You need to keep busy and it will keep the study results more visible this way

Why can't you, just once, be honest about this?  It's a biased "study" of Aspen, bought and paid for by Aspen with no follow up and nothing that can come even close to being termed "longitudinal".  Those are the facts that you choose to leave out of your incesant peddling of that "study" (read...exit survey).

Because it is not biased,Anne (it received third party oversight), people are using this as an excuse because they dont like the results.   You have been rejecting written papers, research written by students who had open access to the programs and individual accounts were tossed aside claiming the kids were brainwashed.
Well now there is an independent study which was overseen by a third party for conflict of interest and insure the safety of the study participants and the study results were presented to the APA convention.

If you really feel it is flawed in anyway this needs to be taken up with the oversight committee (not here on fornits).  I cant publish the paper in a journal and we cant invalidate the study because one person wants it published in a journal or another wanted a different oversight done.  These points need to be taken up with WIRB.  No one besides people here on fornits has rejected this study... think about it.



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