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271
Hyde Schools / Re: HAPA -- an LGAT
« on: November 09, 2010, 01:13:17 PM »
Quote
Ursus wrote:
Okay... So how do you feel about MKP's role in the whole reparative therapy issue?


Ursus, I am and was not aware MKP had any stance on or interest in "reparative therapy". If I had, I never would have proceeded to get involved.
Once again let me explain. My involvement with MK was short, one weekend. My first comments I expressed here, that you enjoy posting over and over are a bit fluffed.
I tried to explain this in a previous post. I explained that I needed to be more disciplined with my thoughts and reactions to them. Most of my experiences are based on
hearsay not actual doing or experiencing others. This is the truth of it all. I commented initially on my weekend experience and on what friends have told me about there
involvement. I would rather not elaborate on someones experience even though they trusted me with the information any more.
thanks
 

Just to be sure, we are talking about these issues below; This is a excerpt of the article.
 
http://jgford.homestead.com/PrivatePractice.html
Jeffry G. Ford, MA, Licensed Psychologist is a 1983 graduate of St. Mary's University, Winona, MN where he received his master's degree in Counseling and Psychological Services.    He is also licensed as a Marriage and Family Therapist and an Independent Clinical Social Worker.  He is the owner and director of Associated Resources In Psychology, PA in Roseville, MN where he maintains a private therapy and consulting practice.  He uses an empathy based, solution-focused model as his counseling style.  Jeff especially enjoys working with couples and families challenged by relationship and communication difficulties.  He has great compassion for those who have been wounded by religious fundamentalism.  He values diversity in all it's richness.  He respects the rights of all individuals and couples to define boundaries and make decisions in accordance with personal values, not confined by social stereotypes.  

http://jgford.homestead.com/
He has specialized in addressing the complexities involved with the anti-gay theory known both as Reparative Therapy and  Sexual Conversion Therapy, which purports to prevent and cure homosexuality.  He speaks from experience as one who studied and practiced reparative therapies for years.  Because of his personal and professional experience, Ford is able to offer accurate answers and powerful insight.  He provides useful skills and tools to challenge the dangerous use of pseudo scientific theories like these and other discrediited methods. He is a frequent workshop presenter and guest lecturer  He was formerly the executive director of OUTPOST an "ex-gay" ministry located in Minneapolis, MN.  For almost 10 years Jeff claimed to be a "former homosexual". For many years he was a national speaker for Exodus International, which remains the governing Board and communication hub for most ex-gay ministries.  His story, along with the stories of twelve other "exex-gays" is featured in the volume Finally Free compiled by the Washington DC based Human Rights Campaign.

272
The Troubled Teen Industry / Re: Do Survivors Lie: Part III (The Aplogy)
« on: November 08, 2010, 05:56:45 PM »
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "heretik"
Quote from: "Samara"
Nutty post. Whooter the most inflammatory and ever present poster on Fornits thinks Anne is the attention ho. WTF?  But seriously, I am wondering if you can actually answer a direct question directly.

Why are you here when you have no respect for the site or its posters? Or even more succinctly:
WHY ARE YOU HERE?

Please, answer this question honestly and directly. This will probably be the most poignant response you'll make all day. Come'on.

I stumbled upon fornits 5 years ago and witnessed an extremely biased and uninformed group talking about Therapeutic boarding Schools.  They were comparing them to brainwashing in Korea and were saying that kids were locked up and abused.  This intrigued me and I stuck around and read for about a month or so before I posted.
I post here to add an updated perspective and fill a void of understanding that is missing.  Most of us can agree that current Therpeutic Boarding schools are not well represented here and many of the frequent posters are from straight or WWASPS programs from the past and many people view the industry from that perspective.
I was also taken back by how threatened people here were at the sight of credible information, studies and statistics that were brought up and the amount of time and energy that was spent to discredit the studies and books versus the amount of effort it takes to actually read them and discuss the findings.
Why would a group of people try so hard to keep information from being discussed or validated.  So I stuck around and have been posting ever since.

...

Whooter, this explanation you just gave sounds like a punishment we are receiving because we react very passionately about a sin that was committed against us. We do not want to be challenged or discredited by someone who has no real vested interest in this industry.
So you had all these reactions from posters explaining their experiences and it rubbed you the wrong way. You found them to be narrow minded, emotional, quick to anger when agitated, I don't know what you expected from a Web Site dedicated to victims of abuse from treatment centers.
Can you stop for one second and consider that what you are doing is hurting others, I mean in five years you have not even for one nano-second questioned yourself and said,"hey is what I'm doing here helping the general population". Do you even care?
Think....

273
The Troubled Teen Industry / Re: Do Survivors Lie: Part III (The Aplogy)
« on: November 08, 2010, 04:21:40 PM »
Quote from: "Samara"
Nutty post. Whooter the most inflammatory and ever present poster on Fornits thinks Anne is the attention ho. WTF?  But seriously, I am wondering if you can actually answer a direct question directly.

Why are you here when you have no respect for the site or its posters? Or even more succinctly:
WHY ARE YOU HERE?

Please, answer this question honestly and directly. This will probably be the most poignant response you'll make all day. Come'on.

274
The Troubled Teen Industry / Re: Misuse of The Word "Cult"
« on: November 08, 2010, 03:06:43 PM »
Quote from: "Awake"
Quote from: "psy"
According to Margaret Singer, a group must fit three criteria in order to be called a cult.

1. The origin of the group (the intent of the leader, where the beliefs come from, etc).
2. The use of thought reform (Liftons 8, Singer's 6, etc...)
3. The organization must be structured like an inverted "T".  The charismatic leader is on top, and everybody else is on the bottom.  There may be a leadership structure but ultimately all decisions are made by the great, all knowing, leader.

A group can be a "cult like group", "thought reform environment", or "compete and utter bullshit" but unless it fits all three of the above criteria, it's inaccurate to call it a "cult".  AA is not a cult.  It's charismatic leader is dead.  It also has little organizational structure.  It may be a cult like group or a thought reform environment but to apply the term to AA cheapens it (especially when there are programs out there that do fit all three).


I think there is an important consideration to make in this definition. The concept of the corporate entity AS the cult leader, and that legally obligates the organization to organize in an inverted T. The directors of a corporation, under penalty of law, are required to make decisions that will return the most money to it’s shareholders. Corporations are legally recognized as citizens and protected by the same laws as any ordinary person. Corporations will develop an identity or self image, and they have the same rights to protect it as any person, by law, from such things as slander or inaccurate portrayals.  Can’t this “identity” be seen as a “charismatic character”?

Just as a topic of debate here, if it is known within a corporation, or organization, that it would best benefit from using techniques of thought reform, can’t we then assume that it in fact WILL use it under the corporations own inherent obligations? If there are no laws that protect against the use of thought reform, then the direction to use it comes directly from the corporation itself. It seems to me there is a systemic flaw in that a lack of laws in this area actually legally obligate certain organizations, such as troubled teen programs, to practice thought reform.

Doesn’t this qualify under Singers conditions as a cult?

(imo- I actually don’t like using the word cult anyway. I think it turns many people off in a serious conversation and it is stigmatized and stereotyped too much. Yet there seems to be a lack for a better word in many cases.)

Awake, let me me try a thought on you here. I believe the trouble people would have calling the TTI a cult is for several reasons, one as you said, "just the word" intimidates, second there are to many entities working within the TTI for their to be focused concentration.  Examples; parents, the child, the program and The Corporation, there is the inverted "T" but it is crowded at the top.
I don't know if this made any sense just some thoughts.
I do believe programs march in a "cult like" step with their daily model of thought control.

275
The Troubled Teen Industry / Re: Do Survivors Lie: Part III (The Aplogy)
« on: November 08, 2010, 10:04:25 AM »
Quote
Re: Do Survivors Lie: Part III (The Aplogy)

Postby Shadyacres » Today, 8:20 am
So, we have established that, as a rule, survivors do not lie, unlike program staff and supporters. Whooter has repeatedly failed to cite any program survivor ever lying about their experiences. Maybe Whooter will enlighten us as to why he consistently and stubbornly clings to his unjustifiable and unprovable position that survivors lie.


Well then I say this is a wrap then. Good work everyone. Whooter, shame on you.

276
The Troubled Teen Industry / Re: Do Survivors Lie: Part III (The Aplogy)
« on: November 08, 2010, 12:29:18 AM »
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "heretik"
This has been my whole premise in the short time I've known Whooter and this topic. He should be embarrassed with himself and shut down his prideful show he is putting on here. He is a jouster and he knows there is nothing here, it is called manufacturing.
Most people would have shut up by now but he has nothing else in the pipeline right now for manufacture. Wait, he will be doing takeoffs soon for a new rant, a brand new topic for antagonizing everyone here. We just need to redouble our efforts and try not to give him energy to continue his factory of lies.
You have asked me to produce facts (which I did) and I have communicated my thoughts the best that I can, yet you post that I continue my factory of lies without providing a single link or hint to what you are talking about.
You are trolling your own thread.  Where did I lie?  Start a new thread and put up some examples.


Quote
From someone who is new here and still somewhat objective, I will say this, Whooter does not have anywhere near the effect on parents, new survivors or associated news,schools or medical professionals who visit (IMO) he thinks he does. Most of his posts are immature rants and quarrels with other posters, he floods (with the same comment) constantly and his sincerity does not resonate with his posts.
The bottom line is there is no connection (for Whooter) to programs aside from a detached professional relationship.


Why do think posters need to have an effect or to have a connection with all these people and organizations to be able to post here?    I never indicated that I thought I connected with new survivors or medical professionals.  We are all just posters here posting from our individual experiences whether they be survivors, parents or professionals in the industry.

Quote
Because the essence of this Web Site inspires a profound connection, most get that here regardless where they are coming from. You really don't nor care.

Why do you attack people who are trying to make a point which you feel you don’t agree with and call them immature and question their sincerity?
 
Quote
Please, stop with your usual petty comebacks, nobody is hurting your feelings. There old and worn out.

I accept you for who you are Heretik.  I never criticized you for starting 3 threads on the same topic each one either attacking survivors or apologizing to them for being an ass.
Quote
Wow, you take my mistakes and exploit them, how original.

Ya know here's the kicker,
I have been here for 5 years and I have seen many posters come and go so let me ask you something.  Do you know anything about statistics?  Maybe from highschool?  College maybe?
What are the chances of 2 survivors ending up sharing the same trailer, the same IP address,  in the middle of a corn field in Kansas and each of them having polar opposite opinions on the industry (one thinks the industry is great and the other thinks the industry is abusive, yet both of you lacking a middle ground argument) and still maintaining their friendship and not killing each other?

Just saying, Heretik.
Quote
Whooter, you are immature or naive and/or malicious (read your response above). This is your toy (fornits) you enjoy playing with. I am not attacking you and please don't act surprised when your sincerity is questioned.  As far as Kansas, I don't know, have not been there and I don't own a pair of red ruby shoes. I am in Oklahoma and the boss man is seldom around so you will just be dealing with me on occasion.
I have never been a fan of yours. Sorry did not mean to be so blunt.

...

277
The Troubled Teen Industry / Re: Do Survivors Lie: Part III (The Aplogy)
« on: November 07, 2010, 08:34:18 PM »
Quote from: "RobertBruce"
Quote
and what if we listen real hard and they say they were kidnapped and abused?

Do we call the police? Were they really abused? Were they really kidnapped? Maybe what happen to them felt like kidnapping and felt like abuse but in reality it was neither. Where are the lines drawn? do we call 911?

If we call 911 every time we hear this and it is a false call and the local police say if you call again and it isnt a real emergency then we are going to have to charge you a $900 response charge because of all the false alarms. That will slow things down a bit...... Then what about the poor kid who really does get beaten up by staff and abused. Are we going to jump to the phone if this person comes out of the program and says they were abused? You have made so many false calls that another one may cost you some serious cash so maybe we should not be rash and react right away. Maybe this person just thinks they were abused... lets have lunch and talk about it.. abuse can mean may things to many people here and some of them are not illegal.

Do you see what I mean? The word can get so watered down that if a child really does get abused or hurt they may not be taken seriously or get fast enough results.


For the love of God man provide some evidence. Show us just one post made by a surivivor that was proven to be a lie. If you can't do that I think everyone would appreciate you just shutting up about it, because obviously you have nothing.

This has been my whole premise in the short time I've known Whooter and this topic. He should be embarrassed with himself and shut down his prideful show he is putting on here. He is a jouster and he knows there is nothing here, it is called manufacturing.
Most people would have shut up by now but he has nothing else in the pipeline right now for manufacture. Wait, he will be doing takeoffs soon for a new rant, a brand new topic for antagonizing everyone here.
We just need to redouble our efforts and try not to give him energy to continue his factory of lies.
From someone who is new here and still somewhat objective, I will say this, Whooter does not have anywhere near the effect on parents, new survivors or associated news,schools or medical professionals who visit (IMO) he thinks he does. Most of his posts are immature rants and quarrels with other posters, he floods (with the same comment) constantly and his sincerity does not resonate with his posts.
The bottom line is there is no connection (for Whooter) to programs aside from a detached professional relationship.

278
The Troubled Teen Industry / Re: Do Survivors Lie: Part III (The Aplogy)
« on: November 07, 2010, 05:42:03 PM »
Quote from: "psy"
Quote from: "Whooter"
Fabrications are completely unnecessary, so the survivors out there please be straight shooters, the lies are only going to help the real criminals get away with their crimes.



...

I've said that.  It's not to say I believe survivors have made things up about the program.  I'm saying it as a warning to others to keep up the good work of telling the truth, and to make sure new survivors recognize the importance of telling the truth. You intentionally take things out of context and present them as proof of a lie you know to be false. You know it to be false because the only examples you ever choose are opinion.  
Quote
Things that by definition cannot be true or false.
[/b]  You are very manipulative. It's funny how often that term is used to describe the kids when the real master con artists work for program (but that's another thread).

and he knows this. He completely understands that there is no intent by the posters to lie at all, so IMO there should not even have to be a warning.
This is a hypothesis by Whooter to tentatively make an assumption in order to draw out and test its logical or empirical consequences. (weirdo) He can only rely on his experience or observation here on fornits he does not have the actual intimacy of being personally involved in a program. The 24/7 of being subjected to the mind altering behavioral models.
This is a game (although a intellectual one) but still a ruse from a jouster. It is almost like he was hired by fornits to supply a endless source of debatable topics.
This is not real which is why I refuse to debate him on this subject.  :beat:

279
The Troubled Teen Industry / Re: Do Survivors Lie: Part III (The Aplogy)
« on: November 06, 2010, 10:53:02 PM »
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "heretik"
Whooter, The bases for your argument that the poster is angry/resentful, well hell yes, it acts as fuel to get the word out. It is very clear that the poster is justifiably angry at their abusers and want the general audience to know what they felt was happening to them at the time.

..at the time.
 I agree with this.  It felt like they were kidnapped.  It felt like they were abused.  It felt like they were tortured. It felt like they were brainwashed... etc.  But many of these posters are home now and understand that they were not kidnapped.  They have talked to other people in the program and are well versed on the use of escort services.  So why continue to say they were kidnapped?  Why continue to say they were abused in the cases where they were not but it felt like it at the time?  

I think not telling the truth just hurts their cause, Like Gonzotherapy pointed out.  What is the harm in telling the truth?

..

Whooter, I am not going to debate this subject with you. I said my piece, I am a survivor and have close friends who are. How, why and when they decide to open up and share their abuse is none of your business, for you to come here and judge someone who has been abused is insane. Look at what you have reduced yourself to arguing about how abused victims should vocally share their stories, please tell me you are not this nuts.

Worry about what you are saying.

280
The Troubled Teen Industry / Re: Do Survivors Lie: Part III (The Aplogy)
« on: November 06, 2010, 08:50:26 PM »
Whooter,
I just don't agree with you and this whole hypothesis your trying to put together here, it is not nearly as conclusive as you are trying to convey. You have to look at the intention/motivation of the poster. In all of the posts I have read so far I have not got the  feeling that the poster was trying to mislead, lie, fabricate or embellish his/her posts to fool the reader. The bases for your argument that the poster is angry/resentful, well hell yes, it acts as fuel to get the word out. It is very clear that the poster is justifiably angry at their abusers and want the general audience to know what they felt was happening to them at the time. If anything they can be accused of is being passionate. I say, "so what to that".
Whooter you are trying to create smoke here, why I don't know. Only you know really. The bottom line here is you are out of line, you know it and everyone else knows it.
Parents, visitors and common readers will not be mislead by these comments, there is much more to the post then a few words (you disagree with).
I find little to debate on this subject.
Here is the question, "what difference does it make to you how they put their message out there, survivors? Why does this bother you so, are you speaking for a group of people or are you just picking at a bone out of resentment?
Is this nothing more then "tit for tat" ?  
Just asking???

281
The Troubled Teen Industry / Do Survivors Lie: Part III (The Apology)
« on: November 06, 2010, 02:37:41 PM »
Hi, my name is "heretik" as many of you know (or suspect is DannyB II) because we both post from the same IP address. Well if I had known this would have created this much suspicion believe me I never would have typed one letter off our computers in this job trailer. To rectify this I will have my own lap top on Sunday 11/7 which means own IP but that does not mean necessarily I am out of jail, I could still be doubted.

That being said, I feel I owe the survivors here a profound apology for instigating or creating suspicion with the thread (Do Survivors Lie: Part II).
People, my sole purpose for this thread was to counter the thread Whooter had posted. To show that there were abused survivors out their (hiding their truth) but it was by "omission" not anything else. I personally have never heard any survivor (I don't know many) tell me their experience and it be filled with embellishments or lies, never. What I have encountered is a few (2) survivors tell me something different ("they told me nothing happened") then what went on in a certain program. They just did not want to talk about it. I have a friend right now that went to Elan (other then the one you think) it took her over 25 years to finally want to talk about her experience at Elan in detail. She would just say for so long, "oh it wasn't that bad" (I never pushed her to talk about her experience, either) "Bullshit", everything I have heard and read about that place tells me it was bad (abusive).
It just pissed me off when I read Whooters thread and I thought of her and others who don't say anything because they are ashamed or embarrassed to bring it up.
This is why I still believe it is important for these survivors who feel trapped inside themselves with their stories, to have a voice.

I am from Marathon House (I know went over here like a 500lbs anchor, straight to the bottom of the list) but that is where I went to. It was abusive but I think more in the actual Learning/Educational Dept. then anything else. I questioned my validity on this site and asked myself, "since I was not abused as many here that I did not fit in here"?? I believe I do and most of all I can lend support in so many ways.

Once again I sincerely apologize for my inability to articulate my true intentions for this thread initially and the confusion it caused.

Take care

I

282
Hyde Schools / Re: MKP's NWTA / TAW - therapeutic benefits
« on: November 06, 2010, 01:45:00 AM »
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "Ursus"
Going back to a previous post:
Quote from: "Ursus"
Along similar lines of inquiry...
Quote from: "heretik"
Sitting in some Psychiatrist's office just wasn't working for me, I needed to be connected holistically. The natural earth made this possible for me.
Large Group Awarness Therapy can be therapeutic in so far as serving to restore good health, being healthy and promoting recovery from unhappiness. This would be the LGAT's I have encountered in workshops I support. Yes MKP does have aggressive in your face LGAT's, I am not interested in those particularly. They just don't appeal to me because of my past issues, so I would not ascribe to them but I also can't say they don't work for others. They do, I have witnessed this.
Gee. I had always understood LGAT to stand for Large Group Awareness Training... Could you possibly explain to me how the Mankind Project equates "training" with "therapy?"

Moreover, could you go into a lil more depth about the so-called therapeutic benefits? Do you believe that MKP considers their NWTA or TAW to confer benefits or insights analogous to those obtained through therapy, as your post above states vis a vis your own experience?
@heretik: Still waiting to hear about those so-called therapeutic benefits...

Also, could you possibly, if you feel up to it, share some more specifics as to your positive experiences with the Mankind Project? Your descriptions thus far have been somewhat vague, and more focused on your time in the Finnish / Nordic sauna than on what did or did not transpire during your New Warrior Training Adventure... Thanks!
Also... some commentary and/or insight on what role MKP played or plays vis a vis the question of reparative therapy would be appreciated...

Ursus, first I want to say I am not qualified to answer your questions to the degree I believe you deserve. The therapeutic value of the MK weekend I would like to back off on that comment, it is personal and I honestly would rather not open myself up to scrutiny out on a public forum. Plus I do not have the expertise to articulate in a written form my thoughts and experiences I had during the weekend and subsequent years after.
I apologize for speaking in generalized and vague statements. I should not have implied, that I was speaking for anyone. I am learning to be more disciplined with my thoughts before I type.
I am also beginning to understand that you may have much more experience in therapeutic values the I. I would suggest that this turn into a more specific laymen question and answer format. Just a suggestion so I can maybe answer your questions. OK?  

I will say this about the weekend, the entire experience is based on the book, "Iron John" by Robert Bly. At least this is what my weekend theme was based on.

From Library Journal; Bly redefines masculinity in a groundbreaking book that went to Copyright 1992 Reed Business Information, Inc.
http://www.amazon.com/Iron-John-Book-Ab ... 0679731199
From Library Journal:
Bly, a major American poet who won a National Book Award in 1968, appears regularly at workshops for men. The book's title refers to a mentor-like figure in a Grimms fairy tale who serves as Wild Man, initiator, and source of divine energy for a young man. This marvelous folktale of resonant, many-layered meanings is an apt choice for demonstrating the need for men to learn from other men how to honor and re imagine the positive image of their masculinity. Bly has always responded to Blakean and Yeatsian intensities, preferring to travel the path lit by mythic road signs. His intent here is to restore a lost heritage of emotional connection and expose the paltriness of a provisional life. For many men capable of responding imaginatively to allegory and myth this will be an instructive and ultimately exculpating book.

Note:
Others may regard it as an inscrutable attempt, intuitive at best, to find merit in male developmental anxieties.
 

I

283
Tacitus' Realm / Re: Letter to a whiny young Democrat
« on: November 05, 2010, 07:12:25 PM »
This apathy and indifference is not helping. These politicians are entrenched it will take a lot of pulling and tugging to get them off their asses. They are fat with privilege and monies.



http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/01/us/po ... &src=twrhp


Young Voters Say They Feel Abandoned
Doug Mills/The New York Times
Published: October 31, 2010

 
MIAMI — Two years ago, the University of Miami could not get enough Barack Obama. The campaign rally he held here felt like a rock concert, his face appeared on T-shirts all over campus, and pro-Obama volunteers registered 2,000 new voters.
 
Meetings of the College Democrats that attracted 200 people in 2008 now pull in a dozen. New voter registration is way down, too, and free posters of President Obama — once “the Michael Jordan” of politics, as one freshman put it — are now refused by students.

“It’s not the fad anymore,” said Jessica Kirsner, 21, a junior from Houston and vice president of the College Democrats. “It’s not the fad to be politically knowledgeable and active.”

This was not what Generation O expected Mr. Obama won two years ago with 66 percent of the 18- to 29-year-old vote, a historic proportion. Americans under 30 also worked on campaigns at a greater rate than the general population did for the first time since 1952, or possibly even earlier, according to the National Election Studies.

Now, however, former Obama volunteers nationwide say that they and their former colleagues are less involved and more ambivalent. Experts say the usual midterm effect, in which young voters are especially likely to disengage, has combined with an unexpected distance that has arisen between Mr. Obama and many young constituents. While most of them still view him more favorably than their parents or grandparents do, various polls show that the youthful passion that led to action has not been sustained.

“They were emotionally invested,” said Peter Levine, director of the Center for Information and Research on Civic Learning and Engagement at Tufts University. “Somehow that should have been turned into, for Democrats, a revival of progressive policy, and in a neutral way, a revival of democracy starting with young people.”

“So far, it hasn’t happened,” he added.

Many young Obama supporters and volunteers said they had hoped to play a bigger role with the Obama agenda. The campaign had given them structures, for taking off a semester to train and then work in a campaign office, for example. In nondescript towns all over the country, they were the public face of the campaign, as they helped turn undecided voters into sure things.

They also played a prominent role in independent movements that sprouted online, like the Great Schlep, which pushed young people to talk about Obama with senior citizens. And Facebook helped pull the threads together.

Post-inauguration, no equivalent ecosystem has emerged. Some former volunteers said that was inevitable, because governing is inherently less inspiring than a campaign. “In front of a desk isn’t as good as in front of 100,000 people,” said Alex Riehm, a graduate student at George Washington University who canvassed for Mr. Obama at the University of Florida.

Others, though, said the administration or Organizing for America, the group that grew from the Obama campaign, could have done more. Why didn’t Mr. Obama, who appeared on “The Daily Show” this week for the first time since taking office, go there more often, they asked? Why did he seem to refocus on young people only in the last few months, with campus rallies? The health care debate seems to have been where the momentum was lost. Even though Organizing for America held campus “teach-ins” with experts to explain the legislation, all the talk about Medicare led many young people to feel alienated and ignored by the president.

Younger voters said older ones seemed to become the priority. “He made young people feel important, then he got into office and there was no one talking to us,” Ms. Kirsner said.

Indeed, a look back at e-mails from Organizing for America as health care legislation developed does show a general approach that did little to focus on young people. E-mails dealt with telling supporters what to say, rather than asking for input — and as a result, many young people said, they stopped reading them. Ms. Kirsner, while acknowledging that young people could have done more themselves, said it did not have to be that way. At a campus cafeteria called the Oasis, she and two other members of the College Democrats offered suggestions that could have helped keep young people engaged.

They included a printable wallet-sized card with reasons to support a complicated policy like the health care overhaul; regular audio or video addresses from the president, specifically for young supporters; and a youth ambassador — someone well-known, like the actor Kal Penn — who would travel to colleges and keep in touch with the views of young people.

A greater degree of focus on the young, the University of Miami students said, would have helped break through the talking points being offered by Republicans. Even on mostly liberal college campuses, the arguments against Mr. Obama have become more common. “The other day, they were blaring Rush Limbaugh in the breezeway,” said Gaurav Dhiman, 20, president of the College Democrats.

Mik Moore, 36, a creator of the Great Schlep, said that he too had found less energy and less creative communication among Obama supporters who were active two years ago. He described a recent meeting in Los Angeles with about a dozen young professionals who were trying to come up with messages or approaches that resonated and got people talking about progressive policies or the administration.

Only one emerged: when Stephen Colbert made a mock appearance before Congress to talk about immigration.

“If you don’t have that creative assertive energy out there, it’s reflective of the level of the engagement that people have over all,” Mr. Moore said. He described the mood among former Obama activists as disappointment and despair: “Disappointment that more didn’t happen, and despair that even if you have a large majority in Congress, there’s tons of stuff you can’t get done and the stuff you can get done may not be what you want.”

He hesitated to blame the president, who he said was obviously busy trying to govern.

Lynda Tran, a spokeswoman for Organizing for America, said that Mr. Obama “was busy, frankly, dealing with digging us out and making sure we didn’t fall into another Great Depression.”

Ms. Tran said that the president had once again made young people a priority with the midterm elections.

Last Thursday night, he even joined a conference call with members of the College Democrats around the country to encourage them.

But the impact, so far, seems to be limited. In 2008, the College Democrats at Columbia University drove 130 students to Virginia to canvass for voters in a state that Mr. Obama barely won. On Friday, the group organized a trip to a swing district in Pennsylvania. Eighty people said they would go; 68 showed up.

“People were infatuated in 2008,” said Maddy Joseph, 20, a member of the group. “The reality has set in, and that’s frustrating for a lot of people.”

284
Tacitus' Realm / Re: Imagine...
« on: November 05, 2010, 03:43:16 PM »
Quote from: "seamus"
I always thought that Don Henly's LITTLE TIN GOD  musta been written with ross/peterman/newton/or at least art barker in mind. But then again .......I cant take anybody as preachy as john lennon seriously. Thats just me though.

I was inspired by your post here that I pasted his song on another political thread, hope you did not mind. John Lennon was a unique personality, very deep.
 
I liked his audaciousness with the US Govt during the latter campaign of the Vietnam War (carpet bombing), Nixon hated him and anybody Nixon hated was good with me.

Don Henley, can be snobbish but he kicks ass with what he supports.

285
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "heretik"

I have edited out all my previous comments except my apology to Anne

The one below?  Cuz that's the only one I see.  It is appreciated, but DAMN.  You were WAY out of line.

 
Quote from: "Heretik"
This is in reference to my comments about what I thought Danny said about the Straight documentary weekend.

Anne, you are right, my bad. Why I even brought this up I don't know. I am really sorry if I caused any trouble. It was sincerely not my intention . What was I threatening you about, this has got me stumped???

Because it seems very likely that you are, in fact, DannyBoi.  I could be wrong, but that's how it seems and he very definitely has physically threatened me, multiple times.  And even if you're NOT DannyBoi, to insinuate that he was coming to this "event" after all the times he's threatened me, was threatening itself.

Quote from: "Heretik"
What I am guilty of is sticking my nose somewhere I should not of.
This is what I get for not minding my own business.
Sorry Web Diva for any confusion on my part, I should have just kept my typing quiet.
Anne I apologize. I do not threaten or try to hurt people.

We'll see.


Anne, I can not apologize enough. Why I said what I did is because of ignorance, just plain stupidity. I am not usually this insensitive or flippant. I would just like if we could move on and call this what it was a "horrible mistake".
 
Take Care

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