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Messages - Stonewall

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16
Quote from: "psy"
If he was given false information, its not really his fault, but the point is he did order those planes shot down, which, like it or not, was the right thing to do.  I'm not so sure I believe the whole government conspiracy thing either.  The government isn't that competent.  They play competent but in reality they're a bunch of nepotistic incompetent boobs who'll bend over and take it up the ass for the highest campaign funds and defense contractor jobs.  It's theater.

Why take the risk, either?  The government usually gets caught.  Iran Contra, the CIA dealing coke, The FBI's political spying, and so on and so forth.  Do you really think a president, even a sociopath, would take such a risk?  Sure he was a complete and total imbecile, but I doubt his handlers (rove, etc) would let him take such a risk either, as they would have to be in on the conspiracy.  The government would fall if something like that ever came out.



I swear to you that the end of this is not a pretty picture... but there is surely an end to this.

17
Tacitus' Realm / Re: More Muslim Media Bullshit
« on: October 31, 2010, 10:21:59 PM »
Quote from: "heretik"
Quote from: "Stonewall"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Shadyacres"
Islam is not the only murderous religion;


Deuteronomy 7:1-6 (New International Version)

Driving Out the Nations

 1 When the LORD your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations—the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you- 2 and when the LORD your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally. [a] Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy. 3 Do not intermarry with them. Do not give your daughters to their sons or take their daughters for your sons, 4 for they will turn your sons away from following me to serve other gods, and the LORD's anger will burn against you and will quickly destroy you. 5 This is what you are to do to them: Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones, cut down their Asherah poles and burn their idols in the fire. 6 For you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession.

I can almost guarantee that the excuse will be that that was from the Old Testament and Jesus corrected it with the New Testament.  I could be wrong, but that's what I've been told numerous times when discussing this with other people.

That's why I maintain that ALL religions are dangerous.  They were developed for a couple of reasons....to explain the scary unexplainable and to control the peasants.

Religion is the opiate of the masses


Religion is a tough thing to discuss. The quote... 'Religion is the opiate of the masses', doesn't really tell the tale.  

You don't slam planes into buildings for an opiate.


Religion is a tough discussion to have on a Sunday morning at your local church, never mind broadening the topic into geopolitics into the mideast. Good luck!


Especially when Christians are as trained as Leftists...

Belive me you don't even know what a Christian is... yet.

Wait till enough Muslims are here...

18
Tacitus' Realm / Re: More Muslim Media Bullshit
« on: October 31, 2010, 03:18:14 PM »
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Shadyacres"
Islam is not the only murderous religion;


Deuteronomy 7:1-6 (New International Version)

Driving Out the Nations

 1 When the LORD your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations—the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you- 2 and when the LORD your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally. [a] Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy. 3 Do not intermarry with them. Do not give your daughters to their sons or take their daughters for your sons, 4 for they will turn your sons away from following me to serve other gods, and the LORD's anger will burn against you and will quickly destroy you. 5 This is what you are to do to them: Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones, cut down their Asherah poles and burn their idols in the fire. 6 For you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession.

I can almost guarantee that the excuse will be that that was from the Old Testament and Jesus corrected it with the New Testament.  I could be wrong, but that's what I've been told numerous times when discussing this with other people.

That's why I maintain that ALL religions are dangerous.  They were developed for a couple of reasons....to explain the scary unexplainable and to control the peasants.

Religion is the opiate of the masses


Religion is a tough thing to discuss. The quote... 'Religion is the opiate of the masses', doesn't really tell the tale.  

You don't slam planes into buildings for an opiate.

19
Tacitus' Realm / Re: Islam’s Invasion Ideology...
« on: October 31, 2010, 02:53:38 PM »
Quote from: "heretik"

Excellent read, thanks.
Islam does present a problem for the USA. When we try to fight them we have liberal theologians crying, why are we subjecting Islam to bias. This is what it must of felt like millenniums ago. When the Christian Crusades (Popes) were ruling the lands, no one could fight them politically or militarily.
Moderates are also dangerous, they muddy the waters.


Perhaps a lot of it is media driven. CNN and other major media also operate inside Islamic nations and they have to figure that into their reporting back home. Even if that means creating a false illusion about Islam to America, it saves reporters 'over there'.

For whatever reason we are being deceived by the media. And to many people what the media opinion is, it is also their lazy opinion.

20
Tacitus' Realm / Re: Islam’s Invasion Ideology...
« on: October 30, 2010, 08:16:16 PM »
Quote from: "Froderik"
This is all very interesting (I mean that sincerely; there's a lot of good stuff here). Now let's focus on Islam and the correct political response to events in recent years. We have to examine the big picture -- the fact that the U.S. & Saudi Arabia have been doing business for more than 50 years, etc. Where does America go from here? I find it unsettling to hear about how squeamish the media can be about all of this, and I don't like hearing about stuff like that bullshit that went on up in Dearborn MI...(people getting run off for handing out Christian literature on the street).

I think we are kissing ass too much. Way too worried about offending people, when we should be concerned for our safety...

But hey,.. maybe 9/11 never really happened...they say the Holocaust may have been a myth, too..  ::)


Saudi Arabia is actually a very good example of what Muhammad wanted to create. Worldwide. As it stands the Kingdom is a very good example of Islam and what Islam creates and what Islam is all about.

You have a King who has the final word on all things. You have an Islamic Judiciary who carry out what they understand in regard to Islamic Law. The King can pardon anyone if public opinion rises against a decision from the Courts, or world opinion becomes involved. It is not a the same type of theocracy that Iran employs.

Saudi Arabia has been our "friend" since WWI. Through WWII, when that was not the policy of the Arab World, or Iran, who were Pro-Hitler. Also, during the Cold War they stood by us although the Arab World stood mainly with the Soviet Union. Iraq, Syria, Egypt, etc..

The 1967 War was a Soviet instigated event. And, a major disaster for the Arab World. Having lost the West Bank, Gaza, The Sinai, the Golan Heights, the Israeli Armed Forces decimated their foes.

Several major events have led us to this point. And, the only way to "fix" this is to understand what led us here.

Nasser went to war, in Egypt, with the Muslim Brotherhood. Expelling their leaders and many of their followers. Expelling them to Saudi Arabia among other places. Osama bin Laden was trained, in ideology, by Muhammad Qutb. His older brother, Sayyid Qutb, is the most influential Islamic leader for Al Qaeda types. Hamas, Islamic Jihad, etc.. He was hung by Nasser, but his brother fled to Arabia and became a teacher to Osama bin Laden. After Nasser's death Anwar Sadat made a peace with the Muslim Brotherhood and began a war of attrition with Israel, dating between his taking over Egypt and the 1973 War.

So, the ideological basis for Al Qaeda is the Islamic thinker, Sayyid Qutb.

The Soviet War in Afghanistan, the Iranian Revolution, and the Camp David Peace Accords radicalized the Middle East. Camp David was enormous because it ended any possibility that the Arab World would defeat Israel using Arab Nationalism as a political force. No way could Israel be defeated without Egypt going to war against them. Sadat was Arab Nationalist. Not an Islamist. He was killed by Islamists.

The rise of the Islamists are the times we are living in.

Saudi Arabia has used this time very effectively. The support financially the building of Mosques and madrassas, worldwide, that teach their version of Islam. Sunni Islam. Salafi.

Hindsight is 20-20. The first Iraq War was a huge mistake for the United States. Allowing veterans from the Soviet Afghan War into the U.S., and Europe, was a mistake. The Arab governments refused to allow some radicals back into their countries and Europe took many of them, we took some. Omar Abdel-Rahman. A good example.

We cannot continue to fight this ideology using Political Correctness.

We have to get over this idea that there is a moderate Islam. And, an extreme Islam. There is only one Islam. There are those who follow Islam and there are those who don't. Yet both of those still call themselves Muslims. Really though it is a game being played with us.

I don't even understand what a moderate Muslim is? What is a moderate Vegetarian? One who eats meat? An extreme Vegetarian would be one who never eats meat? What is a moderate anything? Are moderate cannibals those who don't eat human flesh, they just trade recipes?

Moderates are useless. All they do is seek to confuse the issues while providing cover for those we call extremists.

Then they go off... like this guy:

Suspect in plot to bomb U.S. subway was quiet, suburban Muslim

Hell of a nice guy...

Another good article I have seen recently...

Think Again: A double standard for Islam

Before we can figure out what to do, we have to be honest. No more PC. That does not mean attack Muslims, or seek to even harm them them at all. Just tell the truth. Learn the truth and have no fear in telling it, no matter where or when.

 :)

21
Tacitus' Realm / Re: They don't hate us for our "freedoms"....
« on: October 24, 2010, 03:45:22 PM »
I disagree with that article.

Jihadists do not hate us because we support 'Islamic tyrannies in places like Egypt and Saudi Arabia', that is absurd. These people support the Taliban. The ultimate Islamic tyranny. There is definitely a problem within the minds of our leaders if they believe, really believe, what comes out of their mouths.

When Jihadists speak of American support for evil regimes they are talking about our support of India, the Philippines, Israel, Russia, etc..

They hate Egypt and Saudi Arabia because those nations support us. Help us, although I don't think those nations actually do help us.

Occupations do not create suicide bombers. Jihadists create suicide bombers.

22
Tacitus' Realm / Re: American History -
« on: October 24, 2010, 03:27:38 PM »
Quote from: "Antigen"


If you look into the Treaty of Tripoli... you would find the same trouble we are in today.

The Constitution, when reading it, it becomes very clear what were the religious beliefs of those who wrote it. Without a doubt Christians wrote that document.

That is not to say that they wanted a theocracy. They did not.

When adopted, there were States that had official religions. Thus making a non-denominational National Government was a must. And, nothing prohibited a State having an official State religion. The so-called 'Bil of Rights' at their adoption did not apply to the States. That is new in our nations history, the 20th Century. The 'incorporation theory'. I disagree with it. Only because the people should have been the ones who decided that issue. The Courts do not rule America. The people do, or used to anyway.

23
Tacitus' Realm / Re: More Muslim Media Bullshit
« on: October 21, 2010, 08:40:10 PM »
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Stonewall"

It's more than the Middle East. It's Iran. Pakistan, Afghanistan, Indonesia.

And you don't consider those Third World countries?

Quote
Who was the person stoned by a Christian? Name one, in all of the history of Christianity.

I could start with the Crusades and the Inquisition, but if you'd like something more recent.....

THE HISTORY OF CANING IN SINGAPORE, MALAYSIA AND BRUNEI

The penal legislation in what used to be "British Malaya" -- the peninsular part of present-day Malaysia, plus Singapore -- has its historical roots in the criminal laws of England and India.


While not stoning, per se......same idea.

Quote
Again, if Islam and Christianity are the same, then why are there no Christian Republics? Why?

According to Buzz, WE are.....but my answer is because most of the Western nations have evolved  ::OMG::  and become secular.

Quote
Doesn't it seem kind of odd to you that are none? Doesn't that give you pause? Make you wonder?

No.....there are all kinds of nations that have evolved beyond the insanity of religious rule.  The Middle East hasn't been able to, they've remained a theocracy.


Blaming the British for Malaysia?

Why not blame them for what Jordanians do?

Malaysia is an Islamic country.

There is a reason that Islamic nations are the way they are. Why they have not modernized. It's not a mystery.

24
Tacitus' Realm / Re: More Muslim Media Bullshit
« on: October 21, 2010, 08:21:15 PM »
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Stonewall"
Anne,

If Christianity were like Islam then we would be living in a Christian Republic. Why is there is no Christian Republic in this world? Why is there such a difference between the Western World and Islamic World if there is no difference, if one is like the other?

Because the Middle East is a Third World country run by religious zealots. Edited to add....i.e. a theocracy, unlike America.

Quote
Christians have never stoned people.

What????   You can't be serious.

 
Quote
Again, what is a Moderate Muslim? One who disregards what their religion calls for?

In my experience, the same as a moderate Christian.....one who takes the good from the Bible and leaves out the violence and truly icky stuff.

Quote
An extremist is one who follows what Muhammad commands?


That's a pretty open ended question.  Is a Christian extremist one who follows what Jesus and Moses command?

Quote
What is a moderate cannibal? Instead of eating human flesh... they just trade recipes?

Now that one I really don't get.


It's more than the Middle East. It's Iran. Pakistan, Afghanistan, Indonesia.

Who was the person stoned by a Christian? Name one, in all of the history of Christianity.

Again, if Islam and Christianity are the same, then why are there no Christian Republics? Why?

Doesn't it seem kind of odd to you that are none? Doesn't that give you pause? Make you wonder?

25
Tacitus' Realm / Re: More Muslim Media Bullshit
« on: October 21, 2010, 08:00:10 PM »
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Stonewall"
Anne,

What is a Muslim Extremist?

A moderate Muslim is one who... this is my opinion... a Muslim who follows what Muhammad taught. Without adding to it or misrepresenting it, for whatever reason.

And a Christian extremist would be one who not only follows the teachings of Jesus, but the Old Testament as well.  Both are extremely violent and if we were not a secular country, we'd be stoning women to death, not eating seafood   :eek:  and wouldn't dare mix fabrics.

Quote
After 9/11, Islam perked my interest... I watched on TV the talking heads who, they always put opposites against each other... as they do with every subject, and I guess they expect us to pick whatever side we want to believe. I did not know what to believe. And, I have always been one to follow politics and Foreign Policy. The Soviets took up most of my time when I considered the world, the Cold War being as it was. So, I never really studied Islam. There were bigger fish to fry.


Me too, for the most part.  I started looking into Islam a little bit sooner, but not much.

Quote
After 9/11 I had to take a look at this situation. We had won the Cold War and we had a basically peaceful 1990's. It was a time to relax a bit. So, after the attacks I was not getting anything from the news that satisfied me in any way whatsoever. Like I said, you could believe whatever you wanted, the media gave you that choice... I don't think they do so anymore, in regard to Islam.

I don't think they ever really "gave us a choice" as much as they weren't really paying attention.

Quote
So, I studied the subject. I went to Muslims... I learned Islam from Muslims. It took me a couple years to grasp Islam. Really understand it.

It is like studying the U.S. Constitution. It takes time to figure out how an Imam or Islamic Cleric reaches a decision. What they base their findings on. Islam is a very legalistic Ideology. When I talk to people who are interested about learning Islam I always counsel them to go into it thinking "law".


Great way to put it, especially to them.

Quote
In our system a moderate would be someone whose opinion reflects what the founders of this country meant when they wrote the Constitution, and whatever amendments to it, the generation who added the amendment what they thought it meant when they voted for it.


Eh.....I'm not so sure.  There are a lot of people that say they're "Constitutionalists", but they really have no idea what's actually in it.  Case in point, Christine O'Donnell (Tea Party darling) just the other night said that she didn't know that the phrase "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;" was in the First Amendment.  When it was pointed out, her statement was "The First Amendment really says that?"  My jaw dropped to the floor.

Quote
An extremist, in our system, would be someone who dissembles what our forefathers meant. Deceives for their own gain. Even if no harm is meant. A moderate would be someone who fairly interprets the text.


I disagree for the very example I gave above.  If some of these Tea Partiers had their way, there'd be no pre-marital sex, no gays, no choice in abortion, creationism would be taught in science class, etc.  Hell, if O'Donnell had her way, we wouldn't be "allowed" to masturbate!  Seriously!

Quote
Unfortunately, and when I began my study of Islam I expected a different result... unfortunately my studies led me to understand that Al Qaeda are the Moderate Muslims. The fairly interpret the text.

While I disagree with that assessment, sort of the same could be said about strict Christians.  If you really read the Bible, it's not a pretty sight.

Quote
That is not the conclusion I wanted to arrive at...

I would imagine so.


Anne,

If Christianity were like Islam then we would be living in a Christian Republic. Why is there is no Christian Republic in this world? Why is there such a difference between the Western World and Islamic World if there is no difference, if one is like the other?

Christians have never stoned people. Didn't Jesus say that whoever is without sin, cast the first stone?

Again, what is a Moderate Muslim? One who disregards what their religion calls for?

An extremist is one who follows what Muhammad commands?

What is a moderate cannibal? Instead of eating human flesh... they just trade recipes?

26
Tacitus' Realm / Re: More Muslim Media Bullshit
« on: October 21, 2010, 07:07:17 PM »
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Froderik"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Froderik"
Better safe than sorry.

I'm really surprised to hear you say that.

Why? In the context of my post it makes sense.

After what happened on 911, can you blame the guy for being afraid to get on that plane...?


Well, blame isn't the word I'd use, but I've flown plenty since then and flown with "those people" and it hasn't really given me cause for concern.  But then again, it appears that I've had more encounters with Muslims that aren't "extremists".  I've talked at length with them about some very touchy issues.  I started out being afraid, but once I listened, researched and learned a little more about not only their religion but about Christianity and Judaism as well, I started to appreciate even more the value of a secular society.  Something that Muslims in the Middle East don't enjoy.  Like I said....for them it's kinda like living in a cult they can't escape.  Like group.  If they're not bashing America (over there), they're "stood up" and "confronted" only in their case they're very likely killed for going against the powers that be.


Anne,

What is a Muslim Extremist?

A moderate Muslim is one who... this is my opinion... a Muslim who follows what Muhammad taught. Without adding to it or misrepresenting it, for whatever reason.

After 9/11, Islam perked my interest... I watched on TV the talking heads who, they always put opposites against each other... as they do with every subject, and I guess they expect us to pick whatever side we want to believe. I did not know what to believe. And, I have always been one to follow politics and Foreign Policy. The Soviets took up most of my time when I considered the world, the Cold War being as it was. So, I never really studied Islam. There were bigger fish to fry.

After 9/11 I had to take a look at this situation. We had won the Cold War and we had a basically peaceful 1990's. It was a time to relax a bit. So, after the attacks I was not getting anything from the news that satisfied me in any way whatsoever. Like I said, you could believe whatever you wanted, the media gave you that choice... I don't think they do so anymore, in regard to Islam.

So, I studied the subject. I went to Muslims... I learned Islam from Muslims. It took me a couple years to grasp Islam. Really understand it.

It is like studying the U.S. Constitution. It takes time to figure out how an Imam or Islamic Cleric reaches a decision. What they base their findings on. Islam is a very legalistic Ideology. When I talk to people who are interested about learning Islam I always counsel them to go into it thinking "law".

In our system a moderate would be someone whose opinion reflects what the founders of this country meant when they wrote the Constitution, and whatever amendments to it, the generation who added the amendment what they thought it meant when they voted for it.

An extremist, in our system, would be someone who dissembles what our forefathers meant. Deceives for their own gain. Even if no harm is meant. A moderate would be someone who fairly interprets the text.

Unfortunately, and when I began my study of Islam I expected a different result... unfortunately my studies led me to understand that Al Qaeda are the Moderate Muslims. The fairly interpret the text.

That is not the conclusion I wanted to arrive at...

27
Tacitus' Realm / Re: Islam’s Invasion Ideology...
« on: October 20, 2010, 05:28:18 PM »
Quote from: "BuzzKill"
Quote
The only thing I seem to disagree with people is that I don't think it/they're taking over our country. That's really it.

I read your post about the fear of the RCC way back when. Your right that there was some concern a RC president would have the US answering to Rome as they did "back home" in Ireland. Your right that this was a bit silly. Your wrong however to think the present day concerns about Islam are comparable.

I don't worry that the USA will become an Islamic nation. The danger isn't that Obama will hoist an Islamic flag over the capital and the House and Senate will begin bowing to Allah 5 times a day. The danger is something like a thermonuclear bomb in New York, Chicago and LA; or small pox and anthrax - Because if they can get it they will use it.  And if we don't take this danger seriously, deal with it seriously, stop with the rose colored glasses and the dream-scape fantasy that they can be negotiated and reasoned with, they will get these deadly things - and we will suffer and die.

I worry about insane levels of PC that forbid facing facts and dealing with the facts as they are.  We ARE at war with Islam. Islam IS the problem. Moderate Muslims are responsible for not boldly standing up to the radicalized elements. Our "tolerance" and  their silent, sheepish ways in the face of their prophets demands for blood will make creeping Sharia, with the brutality, murder and terroristic mindset and action that follows, virtually inevitable.


I agree.

There is no doubt that whatever mass atrocity Muslims can commit against the Western World, they will do so without blinking an eye about it.

Our government has failed utterly in regard to our foreign relations with the Islamic world. I would say that it began, the failure began with the Iranian Revolution. We failed to understand what the revolution meant and how the Sunni world would react to the Islamic Republic.

It radicalized the Middle East.

The Soviet Invasion of Afghanistan played a part. The Camp David Accords played a part.

It really was a perfect storm.

Our war against Saddam, the first Gulf War, was a major blunder. We ran into that situation with very little knowledge of Islam. What we have done since then has worsened our situation.

28
Tacitus' Realm / Re: Islam’s Invasion Ideology...
« on: October 19, 2010, 06:36:52 PM »
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Stonewall"
Anne Bonney,

When you send soldiers to war this is what you get, in a lot of instances.

If we did to our captured enemy what this enemy does... Oh my.

Agree.

Quote
This enemy is the most despicable we ever faced. As evidenced on 9/11.

You want to win this war? Do to this enemy what we did to the Nazi's. End their ideology. Kill their beliefs. Kill Islam.

In that war we fought a country......Germany and the head of it's state, Hitler.  In this one we're fighting an ideology.  Very different circumstances.  How will we know when we've "won"?

Guys.....I'm not cheering for "the enemy".  I'm just as disgusted with what's being done as anyone else.  The only thing I was saying is that I'm not scared that they're going to take over our country.  You may feel differently, but I'm entitled to my opinion, yes?


I know you are not cheering for the enemy...

The best thing to do, in my opinion, is leave all Islamic Countries. Pull out. Get out of the Middle East, get out of Afghanistan. Leave the Persian Gulf.

Stop all immigration of Muslims into the country.

Tell the absolute truth about Islam. Every news organization should tell the truth. The government should tell the truth. Try as best we can to get Muslims to leave their religion.

That is a start.

In the end I don't see how we avoid a major war in the coming decades.

29
Tacitus' Realm / Re: Islam’s Invasion Ideology...
« on: October 18, 2010, 09:17:43 PM »
Anne Bonney,

When you send soldiers to war this is what you get, in a lot of instances.

If we did to our captured enemy what this enemy does... Oh my.

This enemy is the most despicable we ever faced. As evidenced on 9/11.

You want to win this war? Do to this enemy what we did to the Nazi's. End their ideology. Kill their beliefs. Kill Islam.

30
Tacitus' Realm / Re: The World’s Oldest Hatred
« on: October 11, 2010, 06:20:38 PM »
Quote from: "Whootie Fish"
I always thought the Palestinians should adopt a gandhi-ish style of protest. They should just lay down in the streets of israel and bring that place to a freakin standstill. Forget all that bombing and militant islam shit, just sit down en masse and demand their rights as human beings.  Mark my words people, if the palestinian issue can be resolved, a huge recruiting tool for militant islam will be gone. There will always be some crazies around but the palestinian-israel issue is the main problem.
Question. The israelis have around 200 nukes at last count. Anybody out there concerned about that?


Why would the Arab Muslims adopt a different style? They have been winning for 1400 years with the current strategy.

Just be patient. Someday, probably in your lifetime, Israel will be utterly destroyed.

Then another failed Arab State will emerge from the ashes. And, Leftist fools can thank Allah for it...

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