Fornits

Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: AuntieEm2 on December 05, 2007, 04:47:26 PM

Title: "Finishing schools" for 18-24 year olds
Post by: AuntieEm2 on December 05, 2007, 04:47:26 PM
Were any of you sent from a program to one of what I have heard referred to as "finishing schools"? Post-program programs for 18-24 year olds.

What were the circumstances and how long was your stay? Same highly isolated environment?

This from Innercept in Idaho:
Quote
We have been involved with North Idaho Behavioral Health (NIBH) over the past ten years. In that time, we have seen many students who are ready to leave the highly structured environment at NIBH, yet are at risk of having the progress they worked so hard to gain jeopardized by a return to a larger campus setting.

Innercept is run by Dr. George Ullrich (sorry if any of you just lost your lunch).

Auntie Em
Title: "Finishing schools" for 18-24 year olds
Post by: Ursus on December 05, 2007, 05:13:31 PM
At Hyde there is great pressure put on kids to return for the "post-graduate" year.  Actually, it has been decades since it was called that.  Hyde came up with a very slick way of restructuring the grades to ensure a higher yield of returning students.

What would ordinarily be called your Senior year, is now called "Senior Prep."  If your character development has been outstanding, you might be lucky enough to become a full-fledged Senior partway through the year.  More often than not, you will not, and at the end of that year you will be given the choice of graduating with a "certificate" (somewhat analogous to a GED), or returning for an extra year in the hopes that you will make it to Senior Leadership, and possibly be able to earn a Hyde diploma by year's end.

I believe Junior year is now also stratified like that, although less distinctly.  There is a term they use for those ready to become Senior Preps but it escapes me at the moment.

As if that were not bad enough, there have been cases of students held back a year before even getting to that point, by virtue of their grades being artificially depressed via the character component.  One gets graded on both academics and character development, and of the two, the latter is more important.  Moreover, even though these two grades are supposed to be judged separately, they aren't really.  If you're a kid who is deemed to totally suck in the character department, guess what, you can kiss an "A" in anything goodbye, even if you are the world's next Einstein and had to teach the class half the time (because the teacher didn't exactly know the material).

It is certainly feasible that a kid could do six years there going through the Freshman-Sophomore-Junior-Senior years, although it is more likely to be five.  I did know a 20 yo student in my Senior Prep class, however, who was still at that level by virtue of Hyde's system, and I don't think he ever made it to the diploma stage.
Title: "Finishing schools" for 18-24 year olds
Post by: Anonymous on December 05, 2007, 06:10:44 PM
yup.
after leaving my program after junior year, i went to a boarding school for my last year of high school. i promptly got kicked out halfway through the year for getting into hard drugs. i cleaned up real quick (somehow..i dont know how...but kicking oxy&coke was easier than quitting weed), and finished my senior year at a school called "the smith school" in manhattan. it's a finishing school, and a third/fourth/xth chance school.
Bassically, it's a small, almost ordinary day school for kids who got kicked out of every other school they went to, and have no chance of finishing high school. It was a small school, with a student body of around 50, and a grad class of eight. the school had alot of ex-gangmembers, dealers, prostitutes, porforming arts kids, and spoiled rich kids - i was a spoiled rich kid. it was a good mix of affluent kids and ghetto kids. it cost 5g/semester, but they would also take ghetto kids practically for free if they showed that they were very serious about finishing high school.

The rules were simple - you can do whatever the hell you want outside of school, as long as you were able to maintain passing grades. they kept a blind eye. as long as you got your shit done, they forgave your tresspasses.

The from the kids that graduated, a majority went on to lead fairly normal lives. the one thing that i noticed though is that a few of the people still kept one foot in the gutter, one on the sidewalk. they continued on to college, got good jobs, but they kept their illicit connections. They still did drugs....they were just more functional. a few kids always made huge improvements every grad class, and a few slid back into bad habbits. There's one girl i know from my class that failed out of community college and is now working with/sleeping around with one of the biggest coke delivery networks in the city. another girl went on to transfer into an Ivy league, and graduated with a 3.9.
Title: "Finishing schools" for 18-24 year olds
Post by: Anonymous on December 05, 2007, 06:33:54 PM
What's your point?
(It just never gets old.)
Title: "Finishing schools" for 18-24 year olds
Post by: Anonymous on December 05, 2007, 07:09:04 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
yup.
after leaving my program after junior year, i went to a boarding school for my last year of high school. i promptly got kicked out halfway through the year for getting into hard drugs. i cleaned up real quick (somehow..i dont know how...but kicking oxy&coke was easier than quitting weed), and finished my senior year at a school called "the smith school" in manhattan. it's a finishing school, and a third/fourth/xth chance school.
Bassically, it's a small, almost ordinary day school for kids who got kicked out of every other school they went to, and have no chance of finishing high school. It was a small school, with a student body of around 50, and a grad class of eight. the school had alot of ex-gangmembers, dealers, prostitutes, porforming arts kids, and spoiled rich kids - i was a spoiled rich kid. it was a good mix of affluent kids and ghetto kids. it cost 5g/semester, but they would also take ghetto kids practically for free if they showed that they were very serious about finishing high school.

The rules were simple - you can do whatever the hell you want outside of school, as long as you were able to maintain passing grades. they kept a blind eye. as long as you got your shit done, they forgave your tresspasses.

The from the kids that graduated, a majority went on to lead fairly normal lives. the one thing that i noticed though is that a few of the people still kept one foot in the gutter, one on the sidewalk. they continued on to college, got good jobs, but they kept their illicit connections. They still did drugs....they were just more functional. a few kids always made huge improvements every grad class, and a few slid back into bad habbits. There's one girl i know from my class that failed out of community college and is now working with/sleeping around with one of the biggest coke delivery networks in the city. another girl went on to transfer into an Ivy league, and graduated with a 3.9.


It's always weird to hear someone refer to themselves as a spoiled rich kid. Sorta like hearing someone refer to themselves as drugie or promiscuous.

The finishing schools that are related to the tt industry are really places for parents to dump their adult kids. They advertise themselves as teaching ‚Äúlife skills‚Ä
Title: "Finishing schools" for 18-24 year olds
Post by: dishdutyfugitive on December 05, 2007, 07:31:59 PM
Should parents have to have a license to have children. ??? I often wonder ...

Most folks think that they are entitled to the following:

a good job

marriage

a house

2.2 kids.

Unfortunately, there's no disaster planning for the fact that 50% of marriages end up in divorce.

A percentage (let's say 15%) of the remaining 50% may be married but are unfit parents.

Where does that leave a good number of kids who grew up in these broken and dysfunctional homes? Slightly buggered I'd say.

Well don't worry we can just outsource the parenting and send em to finishing school!!!!  And why do we do that? So they can graduate, grow up and rinse/lather/repeat the process.

Do you know what the odds are of meeting your 'life partner' between the age of 25-35?  

8%

( Assuming the average person lives to be 80 )

Yet everyone frantically scrambles to beat these odds.

Yes, I know I sound jaded. These are my thoughts after reviewing the numbers. I'm as guilty as the next guy for wanting all those experiences/things mentioned above.

I'm just calling a spade a spade and wondering if anyone else has pondered this.
Title: "Finishing schools" for 18-24 year olds
Post by: Froderik on December 05, 2007, 07:36:52 PM
Yes; please pray for my children.
Title: "Finishing schools" for 18-24 year olds
Post by: Anonymous on December 05, 2007, 07:41:35 PM
Will "prey on" suffice?
Title: "Finishing schools" for 18-24 year olds
Post by: Froderik on December 05, 2007, 07:44:19 PM
Way to 'prey' on my worst fears, there Lon.. :lol: ::puke::
Title: "Finishing schools" for 18-24 year olds
Post by: Oz girl on December 06, 2007, 05:24:04 AM
Quote from: ""Ursus""

What would ordinarily be called your Senior year, is now called "Senior Prep."  If your character development has been outstanding, you might be lucky enough to become a full-fledged Senior partway through the year.  More often than not, you will not, and at the end of that year you will be given the choice of graduating with a "certificate" (somewhat analogous to a GED), or returning for an extra year in the hopes that you will make it to Senior Leadership, and possibly be able to earn a Hyde diploma by year's end.


It is certainly feasible that a kid could do six years there going through the Freshman-Sophomore-Junior-Senior years, although it is more likely to be five.  I did know a 20 yo student in my Senior Prep class, however, who was still at that level by virtue of Hyde's system, and I don't think he ever made it to the diploma stage.


So can a kid doing this senior Prep thing still sit the SATs? I know this used to happen in year 11 but I remember kids viewing it as really important to get into university. Do they also let these snr Prep kids apply to univeristy the way their peers at other schools do? Or is this also dependent on this whole "character" issue?
Title: "Finishing schools" for 18-24 year olds
Post by: Ursus on December 06, 2007, 09:44:24 AM
Quote from: ""Oz girl""
Quote from: ""Ursus""
What would ordinarily be called your Senior year, is now called "Senior Prep."  If your character development has been outstanding, you might be lucky enough to become a full-fledged Senior partway through the year.  More often than not, you will not, and at the end of that year you will be given the choice of graduating with a "certificate" (somewhat analogous to a GED), or returning for an extra year in the hopes that you will make it to Senior Leadership, and possibly be able to earn a Hyde diploma by year's end.

It is certainly feasible that a kid could do six years there going through the Freshman-Sophomore-Junior-Senior years, although it is more likely to be five.  I did know a 20 yo student in my Senior Prep class, however, who was still at that level by virtue of Hyde's system, and I don't think he ever made it to the diploma stage.
So can a kid doing this senior Prep thing still sit the SATs? I know this used to happen in year 11 but I remember kids viewing it as really important to get into university. Do they also let these snr Prep kids apply to univeristy the way their peers at other schools do? Or is this also dependent on this whole "character" issue?

I don't think they would try to physically stand in the way of a kid taking their SATs.  Certain it is that some are more groomed and encouraged than others, and that would generally not be based on their academic standing.  In fact, I'd be more prone to say that in most cases it was antithetical to their academic standing, since usually Hyde considers someone who enjoys academic striving to be lacking in character.  But I think there is a certain amount of "shame" attached, for lack of a better word, to someone who is attempting to get the "worldly credentials" for college entry when Hyde deems they are "not ready" to graduate.

Just how much influence a parent's ability to finance an additional year might have on that readiness, I shall leave to the reader's imagination.

Mind you, beyond all the baloney of stratifying one's last "two years" in high school, kids at Hyde also have to run the gauntlet of the Senior Leadership vote.  Those deemed sufficiently superior in their Senior year (not Senior Prep) get to be in the even more elite squadron of moral superiors considered responsible enough to pass judgment on everyone else.  This goes way beyond mundane dorm squabbles or routine doling out of "consequences."  These kids vote on whether a kid will be able to get a diploma or a certificate, perhaps even graduate, for that matter.  And their votes count.
Title: "Finishing schools" for 18-24 year olds
Post by: Ursus on December 06, 2007, 10:44:11 AM
Some snippets from the home folder regarding the aforementioned vote:

What I remember is a vote among seniors and faculty on whether each of us would be graduating with a diploma or with a certificate and the option of coming back for another try at the diploma. It is with great pride that I am able to say that I received an overwhelming vote of no confidence. I took the certificate, which sufficed for college matriculation, and booked. I knew intuitively that Hyde was all wrong, just as I know it intellectually now.
http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=288118#288118 (http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=288118#288118)

Despite the fact that the senior class voted overwhelmingly against graduating me, despite the fact that the faculty voted overwhelmingly against my graduating, despite the fact that Ed voted against graduating me, despite how I called a "leadership" year a waste of time, I got a nice college recommendation from Ed. For that I am grateful.

Do you remember the senior graduation vote? Did you notice that in most cases eyes went around the room before hands went up? There can be no doubt that the results would have been quite different had it not been a public vote. It said a lot about our craven selves. But Ed gave me a good recommendation regardless. He disobeyed! That disobedience is his redeeming feature.

http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=282680#282680 (http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=282680#282680)

I think a lot gets made out of that process being a vote. The thing you have to ask your self: how hard is that to fix? How hard do you think it was for Joe and Ed to dial the number of graduates? A few special talks. A straw list. These guys are/were masters with adults. They were manipulating brain washed kids.
http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=288139#288139 (http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=288139#288139)

The vote was rigged in two ways I noticed at the time of voting. First, Joe or Ed commented on each kid. I can't remember anymore whether these comments preceded or followed the vote. In the former case, it would have vitiated the vote. In the latter case, there may have been other cues to vote one way or the other. Second, it was a public vote; a secret ballot would have made it harder for us to base our vote on how others and in particular the leadership were voting. In short, a dictatorial vote, with a bogus appearance of democracy.

Courage, integrity, leadership, curiosity, and concern!

http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=288236#288236 (http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=288236#288236)

To elaborate on the second point, there was common knowledge. That is, I know that Joe votes against Sally. Joe knows that I know that Joe votes against Sally. I know that Joe knows that I know that Joe knows that Joe votes against Sally. Joe knows that I know that, and so on ad infinitum. Joe votes on me next. I better vote against Sally too.
http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=288251#288251 (http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=288251#288251)

Common knowledge and a credible threat of punishment for deviation. Conformity guaranteed. The same setup was applied to all aspects of Hyde life.

Courage, integrity, leadership, curiosity, concern!

http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=288252#288252 (http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=288252#288252)

I never had any allusions that my character was growing. Some one shared with me the senior vote process and how they we voted off the island. This is some beside Mike. How fucked is that? I mean really? I don't have the time to describe the hypocrisies that went on in that room. Two weeks later I was smoking dope in a house in Waterville with half the guys in that room that were passing judgment on character. And one of those fuckers stole my brother's army field jacket that he wore in the Cambodia invasion with the 7/17 cav. Character my ass.
http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=282796#282796 (http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=282796#282796)
Title: "Finishing schools" for 18-24 year olds
Post by: Anonymous on December 06, 2007, 04:12:19 PM
Quote from: ""Ursus""
Some snippets from the home folder regarding the aforementioned vote:

What I remember is a vote among seniors and faculty on whether each of us would be graduating with a diploma or with a certificate and the option of coming back for another try at the diploma. It is with great pride that I am able to say that I received an overwhelming vote of no confidence. I took the certificate, which sufficed for college matriculation, and booked. I knew intuitively that Hyde was all wrong, just as I know it intellectually now.
http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=288118#288118 (http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=288118#288118)

Despite the fact that the senior class voted overwhelmingly against graduating me, despite the fact that the faculty voted overwhelmingly against my graduating, despite the fact that Ed voted against graduating me, despite how I called a "leadership" year a waste of time, I got a nice college recommendation from Ed. For that I am grateful.

Do you remember the senior graduation vote? Did you notice that in most cases eyes went around the room before hands went up? There can be no doubt that the results would have been quite different had it not been a public vote. It said a lot about our craven selves. But Ed gave me a good recommendation regardless. He disobeyed! That disobedience is his redeeming feature.

http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=282680#282680 (http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=282680#282680)

I think a lot gets made out of that process being a vote. The thing you have to ask your self: how hard is that to fix? How hard do you think it was for Joe and Ed to dial the number of graduates? A few special talks. A straw list. These guys are/were masters with adults. They were manipulating brain washed kids.
http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=288139#288139 (http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=288139#288139)

The vote was rigged in two ways I noticed at the time of voting. First, Joe or Ed commented on each kid. I can't remember anymore whether these comments preceded or followed the vote. In the former case, it would have vitiated the vote. In the latter case, there may have been other cues to vote one way or the other. Second, it was a public vote; a secret ballot would have made it harder for us to base our vote on how others and in particular the leadership were voting. In short, a dictatorial vote, with a bogus appearance of democracy.

Courage, integrity, leadership, curiosity, and concern!

http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=288236#288236 (http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=288236#288236)

To elaborate on the second point, there was common knowledge. That is, I know that Joe votes against Sally. Joe knows that I know that Joe votes against Sally. I know that Joe knows that I know that Joe knows that Joe votes against Sally. Joe knows that I know that, and so on ad infinitum. Joe votes on me next. I better vote against Sally too.
http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=288251#288251 (http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=288251#288251)

Common knowledge and a credible threat of punishment for deviation. Conformity guaranteed. The same setup was applied to all aspects of Hyde life.

Courage, integrity, leadership, curiosity, concern!

http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=288252#288252 (http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=288252#288252)

I never had any allusions that my character was growing. Some one shared with me the senior vote process and how they we voted off the island. This is some beside Mike. How fucked is that? I mean really? I don't have the time to describe the hypocrisies that went on in that room. Two weeks later I was smoking dope in a house in Waterville with half the guys in that room that were passing judgment on character. And one of those fuckers stole my brother's army field jacket that he wore in the Cambodia invasion with the 7/17 cav. Character my ass.
http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=282796#282796 (http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=282796#282796)


have you ever heard of the john dewey school? It sounds alot like hyde. All the students "vote" on wether to accept you......weird
Title: "Finishing schools" for 18-24 year olds
Post by: Ursus on December 06, 2007, 05:27:22 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
have you ever heard of the john dewey school? It sounds alot like hyde. All the students "vote" on wether to accept you......weird

I believe there is a John Dewey High School in Brooklyn (NY), considered to be a relatively progressive public high school, but you are probably thinking of John Dewey Academy in Massachusetts:  
http://www.jda.org/ (http://www.jda.org/)
Title: "Finishing schools" for 18-24 year olds
Post by: AuntieEm2 on December 06, 2007, 05:38:50 PM
The other students decide if you graduate or get a certificate? "Character" features prominently in the decision to grant or withhold a diploma?

Madness, utter madness.

Auntie Em
Title: "Finishing schools" for 18-24 year olds
Post by: Ursus on December 06, 2007, 08:23:44 PM
Quote from: ""AuntieEm2""
The other students decide if you graduate or get a certificate? "Character" features prominently in the decision to grant or withhold a diploma?

Madness, utter madness.

Auntie Em

I think it's called "how to win friends and breed sheep successfully," or something along those lines...
Title: "Finishing schools" for 18-24 year olds
Post by: try another castle on December 07, 2007, 05:29:34 AM
re: the SATs. I think it depends on the school. I know that once  RMA was legitimately accredited, we actually had SATs on campus.


Quote
Should parents have to have a license to have children. ??? I often wonder ...


I used to say yes on this but now I would emphatically say NO NO NO!

Why? Government has no place in family. Who would determine who is fit to parent and not, and what would their criteria be? Answer: the criteria would reflect the ideology of the ruling party. Either way, regardless of what party is in charge, I would never ever be able to have and raise children if our country had a licensing system. Ultimately, that is fine by me, because I don't want children. But there might be people like me who do, and if so, it is none of the government's business.

It is one thing for the authorities to get involved when abuse is occurring, it's another to get involved because they think something *might* happen. i.e. they *might* turn into abusive parents.

I've found that it's not a good idea to go after someone just because of something we think they *might* do. Fuck, that's the story we were fed about why we are in Iraq. He might do something with stuff that he may or may not have.
Title: "Finishing schools" for 18-24 year olds
Post by: Anonymous on December 07, 2007, 05:56:34 AM
Governments stop a lot of things that "might" happen. It stops people with police records and mental illness from legally acquiring firearms. It stops sexual predators from approaching schools and playgrounds. You have to take into consideration the history of the persons concerned. Same with Saddam and countries, for that matter.

Outlawing convicted child abusers from having kids might not be such a bad idea.
Title: "Finishing schools" for 18-24 year olds
Post by: AuntieEm2 on December 07, 2007, 10:45:15 AM
So anyone else have experience with a program for 18-24 year olds?

Auntie Em
Title: "Finishing schools" for 18-24 year olds
Post by: AuntieEm2 on December 07, 2007, 11:19:44 AM
Society is never going to issue a license to have children, of course, but one sensible middle ground would be for parenting classes to be required in high school.

Auntie Em
Title: "Finishing schools" for 18-24 year olds
Post by: Nihilanthic on December 07, 2007, 11:26:06 AM
I'd bet parenting classes would be mollified into uselessness in much the same way sex ed turned into abstinence education.

Honestly whose gonna tell teenagers to be abstinent and not even mention the word masturbation?  :rofl:
Title: "Finishing schools" for 18-24 year olds
Post by: Anonymous on December 07, 2007, 11:29:06 AM
Quote from: ""Nihilanthic""
I'd bet parenting classes would be mollified into uselessness in much the same way sex ed turned into abstinence education.

Honestly whose gonna tell teenagers to be abstinent and not even mention the word masturbation?  :rofl:


I was having the same thoughts. Where does the law stand on convicted child abusers having additional children?
Title: "Finishing schools" for 18-24 year olds
Post by: AuntieEm2 on December 07, 2007, 11:35:03 AM
Depends on the state and the case. Child protective services can, in certain circumstances, take children away from known offenders.

Auntie Em
Title: "Finishing schools" for 18-24 year olds
Post by: Anonymous on December 07, 2007, 11:40:12 AM
Quote from: ""AuntieEm2""
Depends on the state and the case. Child protective services can, in certain circumstances, take children away from known offenders.

Auntie Em


What about a childless couple convicted of abusing other children, contemplating having kids of their own?
Title: "Finishing schools" for 18-24 year olds
Post by: Anonymous on December 07, 2007, 11:41:37 AM
i think it's wrong for the govt to control weather or not someone can have kids, or is allowed to continue taking care of their existing kids.

sure, it's would be fucked up for a molester to have kids.


but keep in mind, CPS likes to take away kids from POTHEADS. if you are convicted of a minor marijuana offense, they can theoretically take your kids away in most states. Kids have been taken away by the feds from state authorized medical marijuana patients, and gay people, too.

if you allow the goverment to control who has kids, they might decide to start sterilizing people upon recieving a ticket for marijuana.
Title: "Finishing schools" for 18-24 year olds
Post by: dishdutyfugitive on December 07, 2007, 11:59:27 AM
I agree that anything the government touches turns to shit. I don't want them babysitting me in any form.

Yet, I still think that 75% of people driving on the road have no business doing so.  And I think at least 25% of parents are unfit to have kids. Another 25% are unfit parents about 49% of the time.

Having kids when you don't have your shit together is a joke. Having kids so you can 'be like everyone else'.

I do subscribe 100% to Darwin so the bottom line is we are just another clump of organic matter desperately trying to preserve our brand of DNA.
Millions of years of evolution can't be changed without a timemachine or an alien abduction.
Title: "Finishing schools" for 18-24 year olds
Post by: Anonymous on December 07, 2007, 12:17:20 PM
Quote from: ""dishdutyfugitive""
I agree that anything the government touches turns to shit. I don't want them babysitting me in any form.

Yet, I still think that 75% of people driving on the road have no business doing so.  And I think at least 25% of parents are unfit to have kids. Another 25% are unfit parents about 49% of the time.

Having kids when you don't have your shit together is a joke. Having kids so you can 'be like everyone else'.

I do subscribe 100% to Darwin so the bottom line is we are just another clump of organic matter desperately trying to preserve our brand of DNA.
Millions of years of evolution can't be changed without a timemachine or an alien abduction.


In other words, no government controls on childbearing, because then too high a percentage of people would not be allowed to have kids.

Maybe, but what about the real bad news cases, the ticking timebombs, the ones about whom you can say the risk of serious abuse is way too high and their past crimes way too heinous?

I ask because I think the question is of relevance to the troubled teen industry.
Title: "Finishing schools" for 18-24 year olds
Post by: Anonymous on December 07, 2007, 01:08:54 PM
the problem is who is to decide what is henious? if you let the goverment decide, you never know what they will brand as henious. to some, murder and child rape are henious. to others, they might want to include child abuse. others (keep in mind, in this country, this is alot of people), may decide that homosexuals shouldnt be allowed to have kids, or that people with a history of drug abuse cant have kids.

we cant have that, because once a precedent has been set, there are not limits to where it can go. one day it's sterilizing murderers, then before you know it two years later people with low I.Qs, druggies, homos, and overly promiscus people will be gettting sterilized.



what WOULD be legitimate, would be this:
if one wishes to have a baby, they must get a license. This is FREE, but the parents must attend classes, pass tests, and have inspections of their households. think of the movie "license to wed". this would also involve community service involving kids (e.g "big brothers" thing, or spending time with a much younger relative could also count), along with backround checks.  
If one wishes to Opt out of getting a license, or simply cant pass the test, they may still have kids. exept they would be heavily taxed for every child. the kid would also be inelligible to attend public school, and inelligible for any form of insurance. If one is unable to take care of a child at that point, after taxes and everything, the kid is taken away, and the parents jailed for tax evasion.

this would ensure that if one has kids, they better be able to take care of them. If they seem to think they can, but are really just sheep and fuck their kids up, and cant take care of them, the kids get help and the parents are punished.
Title: "Finishing schools" for 18-24 year olds
Post by: Anonymous on December 07, 2007, 01:12:21 PM
YEs - I'm definitely pro-castration for sick fucks.

That's the problem the government. They interfere with natural selection. If some pedophile got a hold of some kids and the village found out about it they would beat to death in town square. That's the natural  order of things. The government doesn't want  you doing that because it instills true independence in the people and they fear they will one day be ursurped by the masses.

People in control with all the toys aren't going to risk losing it.

Our country is crawling with pedophiles. They get a slap on the wrist. Fucking joke that we all need to be babysat and have a bunch of selfish empty souls thinking for us and defining morality.
Title: "Finishing schools" for 18-24 year olds
Post by: dishdutyfugitive on December 07, 2007, 01:24:45 PM
That previous post was me dishduty
Title: "Finishing schools" for 18-24 year olds
Post by: Anonymous on December 07, 2007, 01:42:46 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
the problem is who is to decide what is henious? if you let the goverment decide, you never know what they will brand as henious. to some, murder and child rape are henious. to others, they might want to include child abuse. others (keep in mind, in this country, this is alot of people), may decide that homosexuals shouldnt be allowed to have kids, or that people with a history of drug abuse cant have kids.

we cant have that, because once a precedent has been set, there are not limits to where it can go. one day it's sterilizing murderers, then before you know it two years later people with low I.Qs, druggies, homos, and overly promiscus people will be gettting sterilized.



what WOULD be legitimate, would be this:
if one wishes to have a baby, they must get a license. This is FREE, but the parents must attend classes, pass tests, and have inspections of their households. think of the movie "license to wed". this would also involve community service involving kids (e.g "big brothers" thing, or spending time with a much younger relative could also count), along with backround checks.  
If one wishes to Opt out of getting a license, or simply cant pass the test, they may still have kids. exept they would be heavily taxed for every child. the kid would also be inelligible to attend public school, and inelligible for any form of insurance. If one is unable to take care of a child at that point, after taxes and everything, the kid is taken away, and the parents jailed for tax evasion.

this would ensure that if one has kids, they better be able to take care of them. If they seem to think they can, but are really just sheep and fuck their kids up, and cant take care of them, the kids get help and the parents are punished.


I don't think there is a slippery slope argument here. The perpetration of random acts of violence against kids can easily be distinguished from the other activities you mention, such as homosexuality and smoking pot. Hard drugs is more complicated, as their fetus will become addicted. But people convicted of murdering, raping, and even molesting kids, theior own or others', should not be allowed to have kids. These are universal no-nos.    

Actually, I find your idea of licensing and controlling all parents more worrying than the loss of childbearing rights for some parents. First, it seems very Big Brotherish and gives the government unprecedented powers to interfere in our private matters. Second, the idea of forbidding schooling and insurance for kids may have no effect at all on the parents if they're rich or too far gone but will almost surely be punishing to the kids.
Title: "Finishing schools" for 18-24 year olds
Post by: AuntieEm2 on December 07, 2007, 01:51:35 PM
Quote
if one wishes to have a baby, they must get a license. This is FREE, but the parents must attend classes, pass tests, and have inspections of their households. think of the movie "license to wed". this would also involve community service involving kids (e.g "big brothers" thing, or spending time with a much younger relative could also count), along with backround checks.
Quote
If one wishes to Opt out of getting a license, or simply cant pass the test, they may still have kids. exept they would be heavily taxed for every child. the kid would also be inelligible to attend public school, and inelligible for any form of insurance.

This concept has merit and is well-intentioned but lacks practical application, I'm afraid.

Would this licensing happen before getting dressed for prom, during the drunken frat party, in the back seat of the Chev, or after the woman is already pregnant? Would pregnant women be less likely to seek prenatal care because they don't want to take classes? Would our society suddenly hold men equally responsible for parenting? And children of irresponsible parents would suffer additional neglect and a lesser education?  

The impulse to improve parenting and hold parents accountable is wonderful, but I don't think this gets you there...
 
Auntie Em
Title: John Dewey Academy
Post by: Ursus on December 16, 2007, 11:16:41 AM
Quote from: ""Ursus""
Quote from: ""Guest""
have you ever heard of the john dewey school? It sounds alot like hyde. All the students "vote" on wether to accept you......weird
I believe there is a John Dewey High School in Brooklyn (NY), considered to be a relatively progressive public high school, but you are probably thinking of John Dewey Academy in Massachusetts:  
http://www.jda.org/ (http://www.jda.org/)

Snippet found re. when John Dewey Academy was pushing to get accredited back in 1993... check out who was the chairman of the accreditation committee:

===============================================

http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... ews02.html (http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives/1993/10/news02.html)
Malcolm W. Gauld, Head of the Hyde School, served as the chairperson[/color]; Christopher Norris, Assistant Head of Proctor Academy, served as co-chair of this committee. Other members were John N. Buxton, Assistant Headmaster of St. Paul's School; Nancy Juliano, Foreign Language Department Head, The Ethel Walker School; C. Jay Readinger, Business Manager, Moses Brown School; and Joyce Wilson, Mathematics Department Head, Suffield Academy. The committee read a 1450 page report, interviewed students, faculty, and parents, observed classes, studied policies and student files before submitting a 28 page report which concluded, "The Visiting Committee departed Great Barrington inspired by what it saw and excited for the future of the School."

The John Dewey Academy not only has the smallest enrollment but also is the first proprietary school to receive accreditation from The New England Association of Schools and Colleges. The John Dewey Academy is a residential, twelve months, college preparatory, therapeutic high school which provides intensive educational and counseling for self-destructive, acting-out, gifted adolescents who possesses superior innate intellectual and creative potential. Some students had been hospitalized. Many arrive medicated, though none currently are.

Dr. Thomas Bratter, president, states, "The New England Association of Schools and Colleges has demonstrated its integrity and courage by approving this quality school because in view of my personal legal difficulties, the decision could have been delayed. Quite understandably the entire John Dewey Academy appreciates and is honored to become the newest accredited school by NEASC.

Copyright © 1993, Woodbury Reports, Inc. (This article may be reproduced without prior approval if the copyright notice and proper publication and author attribution accompanies the copy.)
Title: "Finishing schools" for 18-24 year olds
Post by: Anonymous on December 16, 2007, 03:11:49 PM
YEAH, i read the website, and thought...definietly hyde, very weird
Title: "Finishing schools" for 18-24 year olds
Post by: AuntieEm2 on December 17, 2007, 12:59:07 PM
The foxes accrediting the other foxes to watch the henhouse. Thanks for the info, Ursu.

Auntie Em
Title: "Finishing schools" for 18-24 year olds
Post by: Anne Bonney on December 17, 2007, 01:09:15 PM
Insular and incestuous.
Title: "Finishing schools" for 18-24 year olds
Post by: AuntieEm2 on December 17, 2007, 01:23:59 PM
It's really an inescapable conclusion, isn't it? I have worked in a number of different industries and have never seen this level of inbreeding. In addition to performing their own oversight and accreditation (the Montana law that put the industry in charge of policing itself comes to mind), there is continual pat-on-the-back reinforcement that it's okay to use a "therapy" model that is not in accordance with in any respected standard of care that is practiced or taught at major universities or mental health institutions.

Very often I have to remind people (family) that my niece (who supposedly has all these newly-discovered mental illnesses) is not at a mental health facility. If she actually is as bad as her parents say, then why isn't she in a mental health facility getting professional care?

I say, "If she were in a mental hospital, there would be visiting hours. If she were in a juvenile detention facility, there would be visiting hours. Why has she been kept completely isolated for two years?"

Grrrrr, I hope her parents choke on their Christmas dinner.

Auntie Em
Title: "Finishing schools" for 18-24 year olds
Post by: Ursus on December 17, 2007, 03:31:34 PM
LOLS.  Folks, the cronyism and incestuousness gets even better...

There isn't too much mention of John Dewy Academy here in the threads, but apparently there have been a few placements of kids in both the JDA and Elan schools and a few of them have seen fit to discuss JDA briefly in the Elan threads.  Some quotes:

Hey, I was looking up criticisms of John Dewey Academy on the net, and very suprisingly i found almost none. This isn't to say that JDA is not a beneficial school for those who complete it, but my story as a very brief student there (a few years ago by now) was outright ridiculous. When my parents came down to help me out after I was having trouble in my second week, Mr. Bratter called my Mother a "stupid bitch" because she disagreed with his idea of making me wear an eight inch dildo around my neck, to signify that I was going to be raped if i ever left the school. Then i was also told that I would be selling myself out on the street to make a living as a 15 year old boy. Tom Bratter may have helped a lot of people out, and I don't deny it, but I just want people to have a better idea of the bullshit that he will pull when provoked (and i certainly did provoke it) By the way i was also threatened to go to Elan, and managed to convince my parents to turn back about 40 minutes from the entrance. Thank fucking God
http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=43636#43636 (http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=43636#43636)

yeah, i was stouched by an angel instead of a fucking Mainer Heroin addict. Maine Sucks worse than a vietnamese jizz whore.
OH yeah, i forgot to mention this, Tom's desk drawer and the "leave at anytime policy is bullshit" i left and Tom called the cops on me, only to bring me back so he could tell me "think of me when you're getting raped" and then sent me to the police station.

http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=43769#43769 (http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=43769#43769)

Who are you???? That you went to JDA?? I went there...ugh....
Were you there around the time...when Tom Bratter was getting acussed of molesting a girl in Scarsedale? I looked it up online to see if I could find any stories about it but I couldnt find it.
I remember, when I first met him with my mom, and heard he was being accused of those rape charges, I felt he was capable of those things, from thevibe I got from him....(If your a girl, you can get vibes from men by the way they look at you) ewwww.....
He used to plan outings, which involved going to his actual house!
What kind of owner at a theraputical boarding school, plans an all day event at his personal house? I remember we all went to his house, we had a huge bar-b-que, and me and like 2 girls and a couple of guys and Tom Bratter, sat in this huge jacuzzi/hot tob on his back porch. The only things I can remember loving about JDA now that I think back is, being able to do whatever you wanted when you needed too, the beautiful ceiling in my bed room,the huge Castle the I lived in, the painting I have that I painted of JDA while sitting under a tree outside of the whole front of the school actually, it was the back. Playing sports in front. Sitting on the pay phone down stairs by the main bathroom with my feet up. Walking to the store to buy shampoo and stuff. Talking to the strange yet intresting people in that small town of Great Barrington.
Whatever...and more....
I left 3 times--from JDA on the bus t Port Authority to stay in NYC with my cousin. I remember I used to buy my ticket at that store across the road, that sold ickets and I was 16 yrs old, which in that town was a legal age for smoking traveling etc...like 18 is here, 16 then was like being 18. I remember saying fuck it, buying a pack of smokes(bc you couldnt smoke there) and smoking smokes while waiting for the bus, and like 3 people from the school saying come on Jenn come back to JDA. I was like hell no. They couldnt restrain, grab or force youthere that was in humane-not even thought of behavior...
Anyways--
what else can I say? Mike should call him up and say"Hey I was intrested in sending my daughter there, although I was a little concerned because I heard the owner(Tom Bratter) was acussed of molesting a girl at JDA....

http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=44175#44175 (http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=44175#44175)

Hey... my name's Josie and I went to John Dewey, ran away, then got sent to Elan. I graduated from Elan and then my mom sent me BACK to JDA. She said that she didn't want me to go home and fuck up again. Well, I ran away again. That place made no sense. It was like, we would have these groups and Tom would get in my face and tell me I wasn't getting to my issues, and I was like, "what issues? Please tell me what you're talking about it, and I'll do the best I can to work through them." Well, he never did. I just used to sit in groups and cry while he screamed at me for something, I have no idea what.

I called up Tania M crying, telling her it wasn't fair that I busted my ass at Elan and then I was back at that fucking place. It was nice, it was a castle, but there was something not right about it, you know? Did you ever go in the basement? It was an old slaughterhouse and there was a big hook hanging from the ceiling.

My first time through, I was in with the girl that ended up suing him for abuse. I don't think that she would have lied about it. Tom B was a creep from hell. I can't believe that he still runs that place. He should be locked up.

http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=76142#76142 (http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=76142#76142)[/list]

Okay, now take a look again at that last paragraph from that aforementioned 1993 News Bit:

Dr. Thomas Bratter, president, states, "The New England Association of Schools and Colleges has demonstrated its integrity and courage by approving this quality school because in view of my personal legal difficulties, the decision could have been delayed. Quite understandably the entire John Dewey Academy appreciates and is honored to become the newest accredited school by NEASC.
http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... ews02.html (http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives/1993/10/news02.html) [/list]

GEEEZ... Wonder what that's all about, ha ha!  Of course, you know that not even 15 years earlier than this accreditation visit in 1993, Malcolm Gauld's own father, Joseph Gauld -- founder of Hyde Schools and great espouser of "character education" -- was carrying on an affair with a former female student who was in her sophomore year in college, this incident being within a couple of years of when co-founder Sumner Hawley was also allegedly carrying on with a former male student... both of these affairs taking place while both administrators were not only married but also teaching and/or administering and/or in some way unequivocally involved with the school.  And yep, the school knew all about them; perhaps not when the affairs commenced, but certainly not too long after that.

Great examples of character education and good family values, eh?  I guess Mal would know all about how to make those pesky sexual harassment charges go away.
Title: "Finishing schools" for 18-24 year olds
Post by: Ursus on January 10, 2008, 08:28:08 AM
Quote from: ""Guest""
What does it mean for college admissions when you have a "school" that is willing to fabricate the accomplishments of it's students?

Wouldn't be the first time.  Ultimately, it doesn't do the kids any favors.  They still have to pay the piper later on down the line.  

It's meant to benefit the fabricating institution, as in... stats they can cite.  Sooner or later, college admins get wise to it though, and share information with one another.  Then:  fabricators beware!  

Perhaps this is what is behind the John Dewey Academy student who got denied admission to Amherst College, and Bratter's bleating about a possible lawsuit?  A simple "admission denied" wouldn't seem to warrant such dramatic rhetoric, eh?
Title: "Finishing schools" for 18-24 year olds
Post by: Anonymous on January 10, 2008, 09:09:53 AM
it's going to get future john dewey kids in trouble. If word gets out that  JD sues schools that don't accept students....that's a blacklisting
Title: "Finishing schools" for 18-24 year olds
Post by: Ursus on January 10, 2008, 11:44:42 AM
Quote from: ""Guest""
it's going to get future john dewey kids in trouble. If word gets out that  JD sues schools that don't accept students....that's a blacklisting

I agree.  It totally sucks for the kids in the long run.  The fact that Bratter submitted that letter as a press release to StrugglingTeens is probably already making the rounds amongst the Admissions offices.  That on the heels of what he has written about: intimations of a lawsuit against Amherst College for denying a student admission, and whatever else that situation entailed.

Bratter probably thinks his efforts will give parents the overall impression that he is so dedicated, and cares so much about his students, that he is willing to write 40-page recommendation letters and even sue institutions in order to ensure a happy voyage for his charges with their "painful and pathetic pasts."

It is one thing for a parent to get up in arms.  Happens all the time.  Even individuals or groups of individuals (e.g., class action suits of discrimination).  It is quite another for an "educational institution" to do so.  That's bad press, and bad protocol.  Secondary and university level institutions are supposed to work together to convey the tacit illusion that the educational system in this country is fair and assessable to everyone, that all is well or at least civil in the hallowed halls of higher learning.  Bratter's bombastics threaten his own nose to spite his face.
Title: "Finishing schools" for 18-24 year olds
Post by: Che Gookin on January 10, 2008, 11:48:16 AM
Anyone who sent me a 40 page reccomendation letter would absolutely be assured of a rejection based on length of the letter alone.

You seriously think some overworked admissions clerk has time to read a 40 page sack of shit acceptance letter?

That is like sending in a 40 page resume. Who the hell is gonna read a piece of crap like that? Round file time...
Title: "Finishing schools" for 18-24 year olds
Post by: Ursus on January 10, 2008, 12:20:59 PM
Quote from: ""Che Gookin""
Anyone who sent me a 40 page reccomendation letter would absolutely be assured of a rejection based on length of the letter alone.
Perhaps that is what happened in this case!  Perhaps that is what the lawsuit is all about, ha ha!  Maybe Bratter's tried this stunt before with Amherst College, they are sick and tired of it, and they're putting their foot down.  "No longer than 20 pages, buddy!  This student is not getting in on principle!"  And Bratter says, "I'll see you in court!"

Bratter said that his longest recommendation letter was 40 pages, the shortest was 18, and the average was 30 pages long.  Maybe this prospective Amherst College student had the 40 page recommendation letter, and hence got the short end of the stick!

Quote from: ""Che Gookin""
You seriously think some overworked admissions clerk has time to read a 40 page sack of shit acceptance letter?

That is like sending in a 40 page resume. Who the hell is gonna read a piece of crap like that? Round file time...

 :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:
I wouldn't, if I were you.  Your plumbing will never recover.  That's like trying to cram a small tree down your toilet.