Fornits

Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => Mission Mountain School => Topic started by: Anonymous on May 03, 2006, 04:34:00 PM

Title: Addie Harris???
Post by: Anonymous on May 03, 2006, 04:34:00 PM
In the 90's she was  a student at MMS. Does anyone know what happened to her or Angel, Faith Grant, Samantha Morris, Ashley Aaron, Ketra Kelley or any of the others?????
Title: Addie Harris???
Post by: Anonymous on May 03, 2006, 05:10:00 PM
angel committed suicide.

I've always wondered about Sam.

How about Meshica Johnson?
Title: Addie Harris???
Post by: Anonymous on May 23, 2006, 11:29:00 PM
Addie is married now for a second time and with 3 of her own kids and 1 step child, Both Jessica's are married with kid/kids, I heard the same about Angel. I heard that maybe 5 years back Faith stopped by with her boyfriend of the time. Nadine is in Seattle, was engaged when I spoke with her last Fall(2005), Norina was a lawyer or in law school. Sara was waging war against MMS, Sephanie has at least 2 kids, Shayna is married with 4 kids in the Seattle area.
Title: Addie Harris???
Post by: Anonymous on May 24, 2006, 01:51:00 AM
Katie Harrison is married with twin boys. She lives near Portland.
Title: Addie Harris???
Post by: katfish on May 24, 2006, 05:29:00 PM
I spoke with Jessica B. a few years ago, I thought she was leaving MT- her last name is Wells now?
 
Norina is an attorney in DC.

Sara who?  Matheson or Marmanillo?
Marm and I speak all the time, she found MMS incredibly harmful...
Sephanie lived with me here in NYC for a while, but we haven't spoken in quite some time?
Title: Addie Harris???
Post by: Anonymous on May 24, 2006, 07:18:00 PM
Sarah Matheson.

I can't figure out why you all are so bitter. We are all older doing our own things now. Just let the past be the past.
Title: Addie Harris???
Post by: katfish on May 25, 2006, 12:20:00 AM
Addie still in MT?  what does she do in terms of employment?
Title: Addie Harris???
Post by: babylove on May 25, 2006, 11:58:00 AM
She was running a non profit group for women. Not sure exactly sure of all the details. Yes she is still in MT, I think she was in Livingston. Who wants to know? I have her contact info.
Title: Addie Harris???
Post by: Anonymous on May 25, 2006, 07:15:00 PM
I do, I'm sure loads of people would love to catch up on old friends,I'd love to have my contact number available and Sara Marmanillo (the only person I know who is never online) probably would as well.

This is Kat Whitehead

anyone you looking to find out about?
Title: Addie Harris???
Post by: babylove on May 26, 2006, 12:00:00 AM
Check your messages for her address Kat. What other old timers do you know about?
Title: Addie Harris???
Post by: Anonymous on May 26, 2006, 01:34:00 AM
Sara Marm
Heather S.
Jennifer B.
Ali J.
Jenn F.
Jenn C.
Katie S.
Michelle C.
melanie
laurel H (shes' on here sometiems)
Melissa R.


those are the older ones I have contact info for/spoken to recently.
Title: Addie Harris???
Post by: babylove on May 26, 2006, 10:56:00 PM
I only recognize a few of those names. I am talking really old timers, like Gina, Casie, Rachel, Natalia etc. Have any of them ever posted? I have Katie Harrison's email if you'd like.
Title: Addie Harris???
Post by: BarnardlyB on May 28, 2006, 04:03:00 PM
hey baby love,
just wondering what your name is and when you went to MMS.
I have some older student info as well.
I went to MMS 94-97, first student to stay 3 years and the younget one to get there. At least that was what I was told......hahah
talk to you soon
B
Title: Addie Harris???
Post by: katfish on May 28, 2006, 06:33:00 PM
I have Katie H's contact info.

So you must have been one of the newest of the new...  no word from Meshicha eh?  I know she's still in CA.  Incidentlaly I think she was the youngest at MMS, beleive she was 12 or had just turned 13.

I met Gina briefly- I'll bet Sara would love her contact info.

Met Rachel briefly as well... never met Casie, but heard of her.

I remember Natalia- she got stuck skiing with me forever b/c I couldn't finish when I got there.  


FYI- Janice is on myspace.com

Non have posted here far as I know.
Title: Addie Harris???
Post by: katfish on May 28, 2006, 06:34:00 PM
do you have Stephanie (Smiths) (Stone) now Andrews?  contact info per chance?
Title: Addie Harris???
Post by: katfish on May 28, 2006, 06:35:00 PM
oh, and I have spoken to Jessica G. a few times...
Title: Addie Harris???
Post by: babylove on May 28, 2006, 06:36:00 PM
I was at mms from 91-early 94. I was there when we were less then 10, and one was a boy! We went skiing up at big mountain every week, AA meetings in Seeley Lake, and the Finn boys were 5 and 7 or so. [ This Message was edited by: babylove on 2006-05-28 15:38 ]
Title: Addie Harris???
Post by: babylove on May 28, 2006, 06:44:00 PM
I do not have anyone elses contact info. Pretty much when they left, that was the end. I think that Katie H has Kaywins info. They were pretty close. I think Meshica was 12 when she came. I have never heard from her. I no loinger have Stephanies info.
Title: Addie Harris???
Post by: Anonymous on May 28, 2006, 07:01:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-05-28 15:35:00, katfish wrote:

"oh, and I have spoken to Jessica G. a few times..."


DUDE!  I remember JG, I just got to MMS and was wondeing why the hell she was being sold as a success story and spoke at graduation but was completey emaciated- concentration camp emaciated I mean, not just skinny!!  Bones potruding and everything! MMS was not equipped to handle really any mental illness, but I can see why they woudl only make most symptoms especially anorxia and bulemia 1000% worse.  The fear and punishing methods just mess you up!!  I dont understand how that escaped radar of all the parents.  If that was my child or I was a parent there for graduation I would have taken my kid out immediately.  just goes to show, desperate parents will believe anything, including a success story from a girl who looked like Karen Carpenter!  Depressing...
Title: Addie Harris???
Post by: katfish on May 28, 2006, 07:10:00 PM
I saw that with JG, that was a really incredibly sad day... I remember feeling in my gut that MMS was not helping me at all and that likely it did not help her... maybe she'll speak to this?

I just worry about the girls I loved, close friends who I know had serious eating disorder issues and other mental health issues who I know were just were not being helped but were not free to verbalize as such and whose parents were sold on the program... there was nothing specific about MMS to deal with such precarious issues.  as in my case, depression, ADD... such an unexcusable thing to harm an already vulneralble population.

Anyway, I was really wanted to post about Sam Morris- Baby Love, know of any way she may be reached?  She was one that I felt close to and thought MMS likely did her in.  I hope she is doing well and kicking ass, but I have serious doubts...
Title: Addie Harris???
Post by: katfish on May 28, 2006, 07:24:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-05-24 16:18:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Sarah Matheson.



I can't figure out why you all are so bitter. We are all older doing our own things now. Just let the past be the past. "

Wrote same as this?

Quote
Sara was waging war against MMS


I don't know that I would use the word bitter.  Angry perhaps, but I guess that is natural for any injustice that has been done, particularly when it is presently being done, as in now. So in that sense the past is very much the present... Not sure how much it hinders the lives of people anymore though- time does heal, why would this be of any concern to you though?  If you let the past be that (I would argue that this is near impossible to do), then why bother post that- wouldn't the obvious answer be clearly individuals are upset to the degree that MMS has haunted them and that it's not a simple letting go process, without the actual 'process' of letting go, including such acts as talking about it, venting, some act of releasing which allows one to actually 'let go'- some even feel a moral obligation to prevent others from being harmed to speak out, much in the same way of it being a release- but also functional in nature.

I think that it's very interesting that this suggestion would be made- possible b/c you are unaware of the present?  Or is it that you really think that things of the past have no relevancey to today... that just seems unintelligible to me if that is the case...

I think that some people (self very much included) feel that MMS harmed them to a degree that is unaccaptable and requires some support- in the same way maybe Vets of war or any group trauma continually reach out to those who were there. Some Vets prefer to 'move on', but others prefer to deal with it and perhaps make changes for the better.  Not much can be done (theoretically) about waging war, but much can be done to 1. End the abuse at MMS 2. end the psuedo-therapuetic practices at MMS 3. Hold MMS accountable.

After all, MMS taught us all about accountability, so I don't think much needs to be said.  Only  it is unlikely that JM will be subjected to the same level of mistreatment, manipulation, fear and punishment as we were.
Title: Addie Harris???
Post by: babylove on May 28, 2006, 07:39:00 PM
Jessica looks great these days! She has a one year old son Mac and is married to a guy that works for Microsoft. They live in Seattle and are remoduling a house that they just bought. Before she had Mac she was teaching high school.

At this point I'd say she is quite a success.
Title: Addie Harris???
Post by: babylove on May 28, 2006, 07:42:00 PM
The only thing that I remember about Sam is when they found chicken bones in her dresser drawer. Never heard a thing after she runaway.
Title: Addie Harris???
Post by: Anonymous on May 28, 2006, 07:47:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-05-23 20:29:00, Anonymous wrote:

Sara was waging war against MMS, Sephanie has at least 2 kids"


Do you mean Kat is waging war against MMS?  what is Sara doing?  Please have her e-mail http://rtckids.fmhi.usf.edu/rtcconferen ... ?appid=205 (http://rtckids.fmhi.usf.edu/rtcconference/19thconference/agenda/19th_handouts/default.cfm?appid=205)

http://www.house.gov/stark/news/109th/p ... 17_kfa.htm (http://www.house.gov/stark/news/109th/pressreleases/10-17_kfa.htm)

http://cfs.fmhi.usf.edu/projects/ASTART.htm (http://cfs.fmhi.usf.edu/projects/ASTART.htm)
Title: Addie Harris???
Post by: Anonymous on May 28, 2006, 08:03:00 PM
Claire waging war too!  And psychologist and lawyers too!

http://newstandardnews.net/content/index.cfm/items/2619 (http://newstandardnews.net/content/index.cfm/items/2619)
Title: Addie Harris???
Post by: katfish on May 28, 2006, 08:17:00 PM
Google much?  heh heh...[ This Message was edited by: katfish on 2006-05-28 17:18 ]
Title: Addie Harris???
Post by: katfish on May 28, 2006, 08:25:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-05-28 16:39:00, babylove wrote:

"Jessica looks great these days! She has a one year old son Mac and is married to a guy that works for Microsoft. They live in Seattle and are remoduling a house that they just bought. Before she had Mac she was teaching high school.



At this point I'd say she is quite a success.



"


Congrats for her, although I would posit that success is not always defined by these things.
If she's happy then I'm happy for her.  I still wonder about that incident and again, the efficacy of MMS in her case b/c of her devestatingly awful state...  in other words, success by her own efforts despite MMS or elevated by MMS (shrug).

Some would argue living for a worker for Microsoft is a really bad thing (lol)... the monopolizer of the century!  I'm not one of them, I'm just kidding... what do I care who he works for/ what he does except out of curiousity and support for a friend (not a measure of degrees of success) .  My idea of success likely differs than that for most people I think...

And I too heard about the chicken... they really humiliated her there I felt.
Title: Addie Harris???
Post by: Anonymous on May 28, 2006, 09:03:00 PM
Here is an example of being bitter. Babylove writes to tell you where Jessica is now and you tear it apart. I did not hear Babylove say anything except a brief synopsis of what was currently happening with Jessica. Nothing about MMS! You started to ask questions about where people are and then you criticize, are sarcastic and rude. Who would want to catch up with you?
Title: Addie Harris???
Post by: Anonymous on May 28, 2006, 11:20:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-05-28 18:03:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Here is an example of being bitter. Babylove writes to tell you where Jessica is now and you tear it apart. I did not hear Babylove say anything except a brief synopsis of what was currently happening with Jessica. Nothing about MMS! You started to ask questions about where people are and then you criticize, are sarcastic and rude. Who would want to catch up with you?"


tearing her apart??!  not at all- if Jess reads it I would hope she doesn't feel that way.  I'm simply drawing a line of inquiry, I'm very curious given ...  

Perhaps that semiment was lost in translation, but I also wanted to draw from the general habit following along MMS line of dialogue that tends to create a discussion/defense of success in terms things that are not, well... real, I guess, hence my questioning in terms of efficacy.

Regarding Microsoft statement- that was a joke!  hence the purposefully placed lol, sorry if that offended J  - I just today had a conversation about Microsoft and it was at the top of my head.  Apologies if that came across as in any way insensitive, etc.

Still, not sure about bitter. hmmmm... thoughtless at times perhaps, but not sure how bitterness would be an accurate assesment b/c of making mention of MMS.  

Are you suggesting bitterness is displayed by simply making mention of something of the past? How does that differ from feelings of anger, rage, frustration, etc at injustices?
Title: Addie Harris???
Post by: Anonymous on May 28, 2006, 11:21:00 PM
above from me, kat.  i can't log in
Title: Addie Harris???
Post by: Anonymous on May 29, 2006, 12:23:00 AM
I say bitter instead of affronted, annoyed, antagonized, angry, chafed, choleric, convulsed, cross, displeased, enraged, exacerbated, exasperated, ferocious, fierce, fiery, fuming, furious, galled, hateful, heated, hot, huffy, ill-tempered, impassioned, incensed, indignant, inflamed, infuriated, irascible, irate, ireful, irritable, irritated, maddened, nettled, offended, outraged, passionate, piqued, provoked, raging, resentful, riled, sore, splenetic, storming, sulky, sullen, tumultuous, turbulent, uptight, vexed, wrathful

Because that is how it comes across to me the reader of your posts. You obviously have a VERY strong view point as to your experience. That is fine. My question is why does that need to be brought into all the conversations. This post started out as looking for Addie. A lost friend who shared GOOD times and BAD with people at mms.

I would have thought that you had harped on mms enough. Find a new subject.

What was your favorite time there, or who was your best friend? What staff member (not core staff) effected your stay the most? What was your favorite pet, Rascal the dog, bunnies, Billy the cat, or the horses? Kat you?re what 28 or so now right? You were at mms when you were 14, move on. I understand that you have your "fight", good for you that you have found something in your life that you are passionate about. My question to you is when was the last time you were at mms? Maybe you have been there recently, I don't know. I just know that I when I read through these posts, yours always strike me as very harsh. Even you?re joking in the one about Jessica. Never about the time when we had to go winter camping and how much fun that was (here is my attempt at a joke), or the time that we were biking behind the school and ran right into a bear. What happened to all those times? They seem like they have been washed away by the anger. Sit back for a minute and think about the other times, the times that we were just being girls!
Title: Addie Harris???
Post by: katfish on May 29, 2006, 11:21:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-05-28 21:23:00, Anonymous wrote:

"I say bitter instead of affronted, annoyed, antagonized, angry, chafed, choleric, convulsed, cross, displeased, enraged, exacerbated, exasperated, ferocious, fierce, fiery, fuming, furious, galled, hateful, heated, hot, huffy, ill-tempered, impassioned, incensed, indignant, inflamed, infuriated, irascible, irate, ireful, irritable, irritated, maddened, nettled, offended, outraged, passionate, piqued, provoked, raging, resentful, riled, sore, splenetic, storming, sulky, sullen, tumultuous, turbulent, uptight, vexed, wrathful



on what basis is my question...let us not forget molested... wrathful comes awfully close to bitter, no?  hmmm...thersauraus is missing a few terms... is sarcasm an adjective related to anger... all humor is related to anger. :wink:


Quote
Because that is how it comes across to me the reader of your posts.

oh, i see... hmmmm...the reader... you...I'm afraid I don't see much to be done about that given that I wasn't close to that many girls at MMs, the few I was I remain close friends wtih today. The others that I wish to know again are not here.  so, for instance if it feels like I'm tearing apart Jessica for instance, I can't say that my line inquiry is less about making friends again with the annynoymous baby love but gathering information... perhaps that's why my interactions feel less....um,,, chummy??  I'm not at all concerned about that.  Individuals have reached out to me, I'm confident I'm accessible enough.

Quote
You obviously have a VERY strong view point as to your experience.

as well as the illegality of much of MMS actions, the very nature of their program, the lack of efficacy, the false advertisment, the misleading, the censorship, the intimidation, the constant fear, the general absence of therapuetic milleu... there's more but I have to go to the gym before work... not from a stricly subject perspective.  I speak with students who left MMS recently, and it's the same of stuff.  So, yes, I'm a take a very firm postion.

Quote
That is fine. My question is why does that need to be brought into all the conversations. This post started out as looking for Addie. A lost friend who shared GOOD times and BAD with people at mms.



yea, and?  as stated above, gathering of information. This is an MMS forum, as you may know or not, much revovles around the problems surrounding this industry... I guess that ultimately the best place to talk about the wonderfl aspects of John and Colleen are generally best reserved for myspace.com MMS site, or here if you'd like, but I don't see my (purposeful) inquiry ending soon.  And my take on that is that the denial of the bad makes talking about the positive seem as if others are in denial or white washing the experience.  Example, we had a private MMS forum, we shared both the negative and the positive.  The issue about jumping right into the positive appears superficial and following the MMS party line.
I woudln't care if I didn't know first hand and speaking form others just eh level of fear and how the sense of betrayl of MMS- John, Colleen still, 10 years later, makes girls not want to talk.  Powerful stuff- ultimately not only do I not want to support that, I don't want the idea that MMS was exclusively grand to get out there.  obviously it wasn't... so again, bitter not so sure, but a million other things yes.  Sorry (kinda) if you don't understand.

Quote

I would have thought that you had harped on mms enough. Find a new subject.


um, no thank you?  why does this matter to you?  Do I insist you find a new subject?  Being an MMS forum, um... MMS is the topic in question.  I want to know the impact, that's the only reason I'm here.  If I happen to connect w/ passed loved ones, great!  But that's not my purpose.


Quote



What was your favorite time there,

I liked sitting on that little pearch area when we went winter camping (which I actually liked and still do in upstate NY- suprisingly)and hanging out on the snow.
(the sad thing is even as I write that there are a million negative (unethical, immoral) things creeping in my mind- so can't help but thing- wow, that was beautiful and powerful... but that I think about how the next day John 'nailed' Stephanie and made her stare at the sun for hours in one of his psuedotherapuetic moves... it's just impossible for me to glaze over.  If you had spoken to Blaire, for instance, who recenly killed herself about MMS, of Claire, or whomever who expresses how MMS destroyed their life and how now intenst therapy is needed, or who have destroyed themselves completetly-- perhaps this would be an issue for you as well, don't know...  While I'm all for personal responsibility, these young girls needed to be helped, not tormented... they needed not to have additional trauma... for some I feel like MMS broke the camels back, they were at a cross roads and were sent to a place that... well, we all know.
Quote
or who was your best friend? What staff member (not core staff) effected your stay the most? What was your favorite pet, Rascal the dog, bunnies, Billy the cat, or the horses?

Sara Marm of course!!  Still is!  I loved Tanya- spoken about her on other forums. Were are you Tanya!  She gave me a diary as a going away present.  She was nice and caring.  Didn't care much for the animals.

Quote
Kat you?re what 28 or so now right? You were at mms when you were 14, move on. I understand that you have your "fight", good for you that you have found something in your life that you are passionate about. My question to you is when was the last time you were at mms? Maybe you have been there recently, I don't know. I just know that I when I read through these posts, yours always strike me as very harsh.

I'm 26 and I haven't been to MMS since I graduated, but I speak to girls who left not even a few months ago... again, your suggestion to move on is just as obnoxious as when others have said it to me or anyone who says anything negative about MMS.  I work for A START sponsored by University of South Florida's Dept of Child and Familiy Studies, so there's really no moving on- this is part of my paid work.   I've started an organization with several friends on this issue, so there is no real moving on... certainly would not move on for your benefit, so that you can find permission and space to think exclusively happy thoughts about a facility that has harmed so many.  Ok, so I can be harsh, I accept that about myself.
If someone has a personal issue with that I think most know I'm all ears... unless their's the denial thing going on, which I have little tolerance for at this point.

Quote
the time that we were biking behind the school and ran right into a bear. What happened to all those times? They seem like they have been washed away by the anger. Sit back for a minute and think about the other times, the times that we were just being girls!



Ok, you're kidding right? my guess is you just don't get it, that's fine by me- just as you say it's fine by you that I have a strong View point but beyond the fact that I HATE HATE HATED BIKING, that was the worst activity part of MMS
 I've said, I've remenised about those times, but it feels like I'm being fake to discuss them at any length w/ individuals who wish to bury the harm MMS brought upon many.  It's like a Jew talking about a concentration camp and insisting they wish to speak only about the good times.  Who are you to suggest it's time to move on or not and who are you to dictate the terms of these discussion.  What's more, who are you to suggest you know much more beyond these post to suggest bitterness? (not saying MMS was like a concentration camp, per se)  I have here and there spoken of 'good times'.  But I like to see the whole picture- the reality.  
MMS destroyed a huge part of me, I can't deny that at every turn I was scared and most everything was done out of fear,Girl things where not that, but they were 'little' girl things done which remind me once more of how much of a regressed state I went into, very child like and just how much of myself and my own truth and reality I put aside- including acting giddy and child like, or even just playing around acting like they wanted me to act- I  have much choice in the matter, for that reason those joyful moments take on a the taint of reality and are far less joyful than you suggest.  
Significant memories were always one on one, those people know their value, nuff said.  

So yes, while on the one hand getting blisters after pciking dandelions for weeks straight out in the field- de weeding, or chopping wood for John,  sucked and for that reason is freaken funny... as an adult, when we look back, that wasn't funny at all.  We did their labor for them, we were locked up, prisoners not patients or clients with rights and respect.  
So, ha ha, may have gotten me through the day,and years later, now, because I know better, understand ethics in mental health (or in general).  I am morally  so strongly opposed I just can't find the humor at the level of denial you seem to wish to persue this joyful recollection.  It can be funny, but not for long... the exception (though rare) is unless I know someone is on the same page and it's not a denial laugh, but a real facing reality, acknowledging it and then laughing laugh.  i have had those laughs with people on forums and over the phone.... Still, I don't want to mislead and contradict, have people think oh, kat thinks that was funny at my or their expense. I know girls are being harmed right now.  I know this and it's just not funny to me to know that these girls are going through what I went through 10 years ago.  

I wouldn't want to send them mixed messages, because I'm not one who denies reality for the sake of warm fuzzy feelings- not on this issue at least.  I take this very seriously.
Title: Addie Harris???
Post by: katfish on May 29, 2006, 11:25:00 AM
turning the tables a minute- tell me the BAD about MMS, I'll tell you the GOOD?
Title: Addie Harris???
Post by: Anonymous on May 29, 2006, 12:57:00 PM
LOL, how funny is this shit, oh yea, lets all talk about the roses growing over in Iraq and the happy memories of Bush's invasion, let's just laugh about this despite the killing of Al Jazeer journalists... can't we all just be happy and MOVE ON?  Dang, its been yeeeeeeeeeeeeeears already.  Forgive and forget, the US motto.  

can't we all just be in support of this MeD's la la land dreamworld?  we rely on these people teach our kids, damn scary?
even scarier the way each person deals with or denies trauma, aint it?
Title: Addie Harris???
Post by: Anonymous on May 29, 2006, 01:13:00 PM
oh yeha,i also wanted to say, YEA lets move on!!!  and yeah, Fuck the girls at MMS NOW, WHO CARES, we have NO RESPONSIBILITY to them WHATSOEVER and if they come here well tell them to MOVE ON TOO! so what if John is yelling at them, TORMENTING AND TERRORIZING THEM and preying on them? just like we were once fucked they are fucked and that's just life.  Its better we just don't say anything dont you think?. lets justtalk about the fun happy times, yeah yea?  whatdya say?  happy happy joy joy.  and yea fuck justice? Cat its all a figment in your subjective imagination so please for REAL, MOVE ON you angry WANKER! FUCK!
sheesh seriously i can't imagine why anyone would be so bitter?
Title: Addie Harris???
Post by: katfish on May 29, 2006, 02:00:00 PM
Yes, I do find the 'move on' bit to be the most common and uninsightful comment of all time on this forum. :scared:

And I don't agree with the fact that b/c we were mistreated that it's ok to let others be mistreated, pe :rofl:

I also wanted to ask, what's this about Al Jazeera, recent incident?
Title: Addie Harris???
Post by: BarnardlyB on May 29, 2006, 02:05:00 PM
Kat,
I must agree with Anon. Of course i would right? haah
I guess my question is, why not read the clip of Jessica, sit back, take a breath and say, you know what, good for her. Im happy for her.
Why bring up questions that many believe are unnecessary when being informed of her current situation....
I saw her at the reunion and remember the first graduation when I saw her, she was really really really skinny. She looked good and I am happy for her.


Kat, I want you to understand, I love all the girls that I knew from MMS still and always will. I feel a deep bong and connection with all of them. Even though I dissagree with you on many many issues of MMS. I will always care for you. Always have and always will.
Title: Addie Harris???
Post by: BarnardlyB on May 29, 2006, 02:18:00 PM
"If you had spoken to Blaire, for instance, who recenly killed herself about MMS,"


Just for everyones info.
Blaire, who yes had a ton of issues about MMS.
DID NOT, I repeat DID NOT set out and kill herself on that day specifically about MMS. Have you talked to Chris Kat?? On that day, MMS was far from her mind.


_________________
you are you
I am I,
Two individuals dancing on our own two feet, & when were together...its beautiful[ This Message was edited by: BarnardlyB on 2006-05-29 11:22 ]
Title: Addie Harris???
Post by: katfish on May 29, 2006, 03:08:00 PM
I'm sure its understood that people going to off themselves aren't thinking of past trauma, but instead of present despair.  Anytime I was suicidal after MMS, even immediately after MMS I wasn't thinking of John's face, for instance. I don't think it all peiced together logically in the way I can peice it together now.

Anyway, I've said my peace.  I don't see how person's X's view of relevancey should cloud my own. But you  already know this.
Title: Addie Harris???
Post by: katfish on May 29, 2006, 03:13:00 PM
i see, no I wasn't saying that Blaire killed herslef 'about ' MMS, worded incorrectly, didn't include a comma there.

I meant to write:

"If you had spoken to Blaire, for instance who recenly killed herself, about MMS...

In other words of person X has spoken to Blaire (the young woman who killed herself) she would possibly understand that MMS harmed some girls to the point where they were made worse to such a degree that additinoal recovery was needed- but clearly never obtained- I think an overall problem that is worsened when people are dismissive and say thing like MOVE ON, which really can and has been said from a year after graduating to now and all the time in between.  Folks who are traumatized and have no where to turn come/or came here... I think it a callous precident that has been set.
  Point being therapy needed prior to MMS and after MMS even more therapy needed. If real therapy had been offered/received by say Blaire or Angel and god knows how many young girls who found MMS traumatice, at least it would be known that this young woman and others had been offered the best of science- NOT psuedo-science.[ This Message was edited by: katfish on 2006-05-29 12:18 ]
Title: Addie Harris???
Post by: katfish on May 29, 2006, 03:21:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-05-29 11:05:00, BarnardlyB wrote:

Why bring up questions that many believe are unnecessary when being informed of her current situation....

I saw her at the reunion and remember the first graduation when I saw her, she was really really really skinny. She looked good and I am happy for her.





"


How am I supposed to know these questions are uneccesary anyway?  That's an assumption I don't make- if their is no relevancy then that may be said.

And yes, she was unbelievabley skinny, hence my questioning.  MMS was trauma filled for me, I can't view it any other way, how can I not expect that MMS had something to do with this and ignore the elephant in the room so to speak?  That just seems absurd to me!
Title: Addie Harris???
Post by: Anonymous on May 29, 2006, 05:37:00 PM
Shut the FUCK UP, faggot
Title: Addie Harris???
Post by: Anonymous on May 29, 2006, 06:14:00 PM
FAGGOT!!  ooooooooooooooh weeeeeeeee!!  ah ha ha,
 
Faggot better run run cuz daddy's home.
His sweet lil' boy just a little too sweet
Every night the man showed the faggot what a real man should be
The man and the faggot will never see
for so many can't even perceive a real man Tell me

Not that the faggot didn't find a woman fine and beautiful
He admired desired their desires
He wanted love from strong hands
The faggot wanted the love of a man

His mother would pray
Save him, save him, save him from this life

Go to church boy
Faggot you're just a prisoner of your own perverted world
No picket fence acting like a bitch
cause that's all he sees
ain't that what faggot means
No love dreams
Only the favors sweet Michael performed for money to eat
'Cause the man kicked the faggot out the house at 16
Amen mother let it be
Before long he was crowned QUEEN for all the world to see bloody body face down
The wages of sin are surely death that's what mama used to say
So there was no sympathy

Let he without sin walk amongst the hated and feared and know true trial and tribulations
See my dear we're all dying for something searchin' and searchin'
Soon mama found out that god would turn his back on her too

Save me save me from this life
I pray to my Lord above save me they say you're the way the light

...ahem, faggotry is no laughing matter.
 :wstupid:
Title: Addie Harris???
Post by: katfish on May 29, 2006, 06:56:00 PM
Hey Anon, what is the Al Jazeera issue- please pm me or post here???    :rofl:


That is a great post, by the way, Ms. Ndegeocello at her finest... talk about words, damn that women is a fine fine poet!  her eloquence is stunning.  [ This Message was edited by: katfish on 2006-05-29 15:58 ]
Title: Addie Harris???
Post by: Anonymous on May 29, 2006, 08:40:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-05-29 14:37:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Shut the FUCK UP, faggot"


TAKE SIDES.

Nuetrality helps the opressor, never the victim.

Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.

-Eli Wiesel

( and statements like those above are relegated to the ignorant or inferior mental capacity, sad to see someone with such limited means to draw from for the purpose of communicating effectively.  We can all laugh this off because of its stupididty and inherent discomfort in such hostile display that this person would unlikely display if identified, but it does frighten me that among us MMS such a person exists. )
Title: Addie Harris???
Post by: Anonymous on May 29, 2006, 09:39:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-05-29 14:37:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Shut the FUCK UP, faggot"


No why don't you SHUT THE FUCK UP, faggot
Title: Addie Harris???
Post by: Anonymous on May 30, 2006, 12:18:00 PM
I have to say I'm very impressed with the maturity level here! :nworthy:
Title: Addie Harris???
Post by: babylove on May 30, 2006, 12:39:00 PM
Back to the original question, what ever happened to Addie? If you'd like to be in touch with her I have her current phone number. So if the person that first posted this question will leave me a private message with their contact info I will give it to Addie so she can call you.

Kat- this set of postings has turned into one like all the others, ranting and raving about MMS. Please think about refraining from posting on the neutral subjects if you can't play nicely!
Title: Addie Harris???
Post by: Anonymous on May 30, 2006, 04:47:00 PM
The ONLY people here  NOT playing nicely is faggit speaker and babyLOVE whoWONT BE HONEST ABOUT MMS or even about who she is. What kind of BS is this? DENY DENY DENY SHAME ON YOU!

HOW CAN YOU PRETEND AND LIVE WITH YOURSELF?

SPARE US YOUR NEED TO LIVE IN FAKEVILLE, POST SOMEWHERE ELSE!!  You deserve no recpect!!
Title: Addie Harris???
Post by: Anonymous on May 30, 2006, 04:50:00 PM
NUETRAL, what kind of joke is this, do you know what is happening now because BABYLOVE AND YOUR NUETRALNESS?!?!  NOTHING NUETRAL ABOUT DEATH, LIES AND DESTRUCTION BUT ITS EASIER TO PRETEND ISNT IT?!?!
Title: Addie Harris???
Post by: babylove on May 30, 2006, 05:58:00 PM
What is your problem? I did not suggest that Kat give up her fight, or anyone else for that matter. I simply asked if on a Posting asking about someone if we couldn't keep it calm and maybe more on topic.

As for who I am, I am a mms alumni. Why do you need more? I was there close to the beginning and have been back a few times since I left. My name wont matter to most of you, and since you are post anonymously who are you to talk?
Title: Addie Harris???
Post by: babylove on May 30, 2006, 06:18:00 PM
I'd also like you to clarify how I have not been honest about MMS. I have not said it was all peaches and cream, on the other hand I have not said that I found it to be pure hell. Where do you pull your judgment from?
Title: Addie Harris???
Post by: katfish on May 30, 2006, 07:14:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-05-30 09:39:00, babylove wrote:



Kat- this set of postings has turned into one like all the others, ranting and raving about MMS. Please think about refraining from posting on the neutral subjects if you can't play nicely!"


BL,  
Assuming the meaning of play nice,  means fairness, a dialogue, honest assesments and questioning, a give and take if you will... I do 'play nice' and my statements have never diverged from this, far as I can tell or recall -

I suggest you refrain from ill considered advice and innaccuracy to support your inability to... find serenity and peace from within while reading a discusion that's not to your liking...or is it an inability to believe that not skirtting an issue directly related to things that could potentially be related to MMS and harmful actions, like JG's emaciation, signifies a level on non-niceness?  

I would like to point out I did not mention this to begin with, but followed up at someonelses prompting. As much as you would like to play on whatever you consider to be rudeness or
harshness, inability to move on-ness, bitterness, etc etc etc, I think that you may just as well ignore what you wish to chance.

It appears you've done this quite well thus far, I'm sure you don't need to waste your time on me.  Why bother?  Surely you have better things to do with your time that play the forum vigilante.


Oh- and if I had to take a stab at annon (as much as I hate yelling/ J, is that you?) my guess is that the elephant in the closet is what is peturbs her... if it's who i think it is, recent alum of MMS, then I understand (though don't condone) the yelling. After all, absent the pom poms, it doesn't sound like any acknowledgment of the problems at MMS have been made- and that perhaps that 'nuetrality' has only helped bring on harm to other girls.
Title: Addie Harris???
Post by: babylove on May 30, 2006, 08:08:00 PM
How am I a vigilantly? I simply am trying to help whom ever would like Addie?s info out. In the mean time, since I did not jump on your band wagon about the "abuse" at MMS you attack with all this about being neutral and complacent. How can I fight a battle I did not even know was waging until I happened onto this site? How would I have known about it? I did not feel abused, and so went on living my life with the thought that other people were in the same boat. Yes you could call this ignorance, but I was able to take my experience at MMS and keep going, it did not drag me down or weigh on me the way it obviously did you and others. I am happy in my life, I am happy when I think back at MMS. No I did not like pulling Spotted Nap Weed for days on end out of a hoarse pasture, or chopping quarts of wood. But it was a very colorful time in my life from lots of stand points. Who knows where I would be today without MMS? I got myself to a place where I needed to be away from my family, friends and environment. I was out of control! I wont go so far as to say MMS saved me, but they surly helped me!

And my saying "play nice" means don't diminish someone else?s success just because you can?t see past your anger.
Title: Addie Harris???
Post by: katfish on May 30, 2006, 11:13:00 PM
Hey BL,

I starting this on a softer tone because I have no interest in continuing this banter, nor do I wish to diminish success anyone's success, I'm sorry if inquiring as to a memory I have of her makes it seem that way, I'm sure she's doing well now.  I have no reason at all to doubt that... if I came across that way then let me say again I'm very regretful I said anything about her in a way that suggested that and I'm sorry I made that comment about Microsoft. I can see why that came across as hateful and perhaps you're right, perhaps I was clouded in judgment.

However, I also feel that we are clearly part of 2 seperate conversations, that's fine. I was responding to Anny's comments on JG.  You continue your Addie thread, I'll start a thread on my topic of interest.

best- kat
Title: Addie Harris???
Post by: Anonymous on May 31, 2006, 05:38:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-05-30 15:18:00, babylove wrote:

 Where do you pull your judgment from?"


EXACTLY,  you have said NOTHING.  Silence SAYS VOLUMES and LETS someone who knows NOTHING EXCEPT TO MAKE KIDS FEEL BAD TO PRETEND TO KNOW HOW TO BE THERAPUETIC.
Title: Addie Harris???
Post by: babylove on May 31, 2006, 07:35:00 PM
What would you have me say? You are just as much of a bully as you accuse John of being! Because I feel differently then you, you call names and make accusations, how is that any different then what you accuse MMS of doing?
Title: Addie Harris???
Post by: Anonymous on June 01, 2006, 03:08:00 PM
Shana Fiengold, is that you?  I don't know of anyone else who was there as long as that.
Title: Addie Harris???
Post by: Anonymous on June 01, 2006, 03:09:00 PM
I meant to say who was at the school from 91-early 94...and friends with Katie H.
Title: Addie Harris???
Post by: babylove on June 01, 2006, 03:32:00 PM
Yes it is me
Title: Addie Harris???
Post by: Anonymous on June 02, 2006, 11:35:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-05-31 16:35:00, babylove wrote:

"What would you have me say? You are just as much of a bully as you accuse John of being! Because I feel differently then you, you call names and make accusations, how is that any different then what you accuse MMS of doing?"


yes` s`ir John tau`ht me good.  HONESTY is KEY  u can F`EEL wha`t u FEEL but JOH`N Hurt people! and as yo`u say is A B`ULLY.  u are saying this is not t`ue e`ven after news art`icles have bee`n written, ex[perts are appalen and you h`ear girls saying JOHN HURT THEM  even in early times like when you were there!!  What is wrong with you?>   you might not FEEL LIKE Jo`hns way of treated girls made you de`pression and enxiety and Post Trauma disoreder in your life but how can you 'feel' like what he did is not WRONG becuz YOU DIDNT FEEL IT AND since u kn`ow about oth`ers now.  This is not rocke`t science.  u don't have to be the person rape`d to know that it hurts even if the guy w`ho rape`s u censors u into saying its a g`ood thing becuz to say it hurst is manipulative.

dont u DARE COMEPARE ME TO THAT EVIL MAN, I don't pretend to be able to help kids with serious problems and U are FREE TO END THIS CONVERSATION>  FREE IS NOT WHAT GIRLS THERE NOW KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT.
Title: Addie Harris???
Post by: babylove on June 02, 2006, 12:35:00 PM
Again you would have me say something that I do not see as true. I did not feel that John caused abuse. Mike, Deb, Gary and Colleen were all apart of daily life, John even less so when I was there. Obviously things have changed seeing as how John and Colleen are the only two founders left. I hear what you and some of the other girls are saying and that is your reality, not mine. So for me to post things about John or MMS that are as negative as what you and some others write is just wrong. It goes against everything that I stand for in my life. MMS was not a walk in the park. It was hard and at times and really sucked, but it taught me to appreciate what I had before I went, and what I have made for myself and my family since I was there. I am a better person due to my experience, which includes all the people I met at MMS.
Title: Addie Harris???
Post by: katfish on June 02, 2006, 03:34:00 PM
inerject a few quick points, I think regardless of subjective MMS experience the efficacy of MMS like methods are widely debunked, so while anecdotes like Shayna's may be bothersome, annonymous, it's irrelevant if we are to look at this from the standpoint of efficacy and well as ethics coming from the mental health profession.  

I spend much time arguing this same point until I came to dicsover mental health professionals dealing with this issue and places like MMS... understanding proven mental health treatment and the validity of my points made  this easier, though I did continue to debate if only b/c I don't want parents who read this forum to think MMS is great for everyone or that their is any proof to suggest it works... quite the contrary is true and the risk of damage to your child is great.

For whatever its worth, I don't beleve Shayna had a mental illness, coming from that place that could explain the diverging subjective experiences.

So, while I don't endore coercion MMS style (and other facilities) regardless,  as I don't beleive it is ethcial while dealing with any  emotional or behavioral disorder either, if your child has a mental illness MMS is a frightening prospect.  I am 100% morally opposed.  I would never ever willingly subject my child to such forceful & punitive treatment as 'care'. kat[ This Message was edited by: katfish on 2006-06-02 12:50 ]
Title: Addie Harris???
Post by: babylove on June 02, 2006, 04:40:00 PM
"For whatever its worth, I don't beleve Shayna had a mental illness, coming from that place that could explain the diverging subjective experiences."


Thanks for that vote of confidence Kat!

By the way, how the hell are you?

-Shayna
Title: Addie Harris???
Post by: katfish on June 02, 2006, 05:19:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-06-02 13:40:00, babylove wrote:

"



"For whatever its worth, I don't beleve Shayna had a mental illness, coming from that place that could explain the diverging subjective experiences."





Thanks for that vote of confidence Kat!

Not to be a jerk, but what do you mean by this...   I was diagnosed with a mental illness before and after MMS, that's why I make the distinction.  A lot of girls had some type of disroder. thats why MMS is of such concern to me now in terms of their (lack of) capacity to deal with real imabalances.

Quote

By the way, how the hell are you?



-Shayna"


I'm damn good, esp today (its my day off- yay!)


yea, what can I say, I've lived in NYC for about 10 years now, went to college here... law school next fall- considering mental health law although I'm passionate about human rights... we'll see.  No kids yet, want to get my education out of the way first.  In a relationship with the girlfriend for 6 years now, 2 doggies, 2 cat...Quality of life is improving.  NYC is damn expensive and I don't make  much- I work with mentally ill adults at a shelter, which I  LOVE LOVE LOVE, but can't see myself in direct services forever. For now I could not ask for a better program director, supervisor or co-workers, or clients (for the most part).  I actually look forward to work, which has never been the case before... bad bosses.

Trying to run a non-profit I co-founded, CAFETY effectively on the side dealing with unregulated res. treatment facilities,- kind of difficult.  So far so good though, great bunch of former program kids with the most compelling stories you will ever hear- powerful group... And then working for the other  Org, same issue, A START in FL which has been an amazingly fullfilling experience because of the community I've been exposed to, the opportunities and (truthfully) just the level of significance in terms of a stepping stone for me.  My grades in college were quite average, so the fact that I've been introduced to people who can vouch for me & my abilities has been a real blessing.

My past had a lot of ups and downs, more downs- I was a huge wreck after MMS and did the drug think for a year, was down and out for several years after that, but somehow made it through! It was rough trying to make sense of things...  I don't speak with my dad any longer (very long sotry), my mom and I have reconnected over the past several years and that's been really important to me.

Ideally I'd like to move out of city eventually.. too damn loud!  It's working for now though, I'd like to move to a city like San Fransisco I think, somewhere slower paced.

I thin you'll appreciate this- you strike me as the sailing type. My g/f sails so this fall we're taking a trip down to the Meditarannean (sp?) with her brother and sister in law and rent a sail boat
and sail from island to island for a few weeks. Beside my terror of the ocean & getting lost at sea, I think it'll be fun!

what about you??  what up on the west side????
Title: Addie Harris???
Post by: babylove on June 02, 2006, 05:48:00 PM
The only thing I meant from my comment was I had/have enough issues with out adding another to the pile!

Anyways- I am good. Married for 8 years now. I have 4 kids. Reed is 8 (you can do the math there), Erin is 6, Sophia is 4, and Sydney is
2 1/2. We live just north of Seattle and love it. WE bought this house last summer and it was a good thing. Enough room for everyone and the dog.

I have been working as a nurse for the past few years and hate it! So this fall I am opening my own preschool. It has been a lot of hard work, but is much more suited to our life fight now. My husband Jay works for Microsoft (so you must have hit a sensitive note with the comment to Jessica). He has been there for 6 years and likes it quite a bit.

I have a good relationship with my parents. They are still here in Seattle. So my kids see them a couple times a month. It took having the kids though to get to a place where we were even talking again. I didn't do so well after MMS either. There really was not "plan" when I came home. I ended up living with friends then boarding school then in my own apartment all too graduate high school. I just was never able to live with my parents again.

I was at the alumni reunion this past summer. It was very strange. John and Colleens girls are very cute. But living in that very small town they don't get much interaction with other children their own ages. It will take its toll on them, the whole small town thing that is.

I've talked with Katie H on and off since we left the school. I also talk with Addie periodically. A friend of mine saw Ashley a year or so ago at REI. They spoke for a while; I guess she is living in CA now. Nadine is out here. Jessica lives about 15 minutes from my house. They were over for Easter.

I think it would be fun to get together with everyone, not at MMS (since that is a very sensitive subject). What do you think?

Here is my email [email protected].

It's funny, I had know idea that this forum or any of this was going on. I just was surfing the web one day and came across it. Of course then someone asked about Addie and I couldn't keep my mouth shut.

E-mail me a picture. I'd love so see what you look like theses days.

Love always and forever,
Shayna
Title: Addie Harris???
Post by: katfish on June 02, 2006, 05:57:00 PM
this is me

 http://www.myspace.com/kitkatconsumerism (http://www.myspace.com/kitkatconsumerism)

reunion sounds great!  I hope to get out to LA sometime next year- maybe something in CA could work.

Also, I can't save your e-mail b/c my pc is getting fixed, but you may want to write out the @ as 'at' b/c spammers will get your e-mail this way and you'll get bombarded!

I'm glad you posted, it's nice to get back in touch...
Title: Addie Harris???
Post by: Anonymous on June 11, 2006, 07:05:00 PM
Quote
A lot of girls had some type of disroder. thats why MMS is of such concern to me now in terms of their (lack of) capacity to deal with real imabalances.


<



and thats what i'm saying to babylove and everybody!  people who can handle being yelled at and terrorized are the people who are not mentally ill mostly or not extra sensitive.  so i think that everyone even if you didnt think john was abusive, or not abusive to you or that mms was bad HOW CAN YOU STAND IT TO IGNORE THE FACT THAT IT WAS BAD FOR SO MANY and that they meaning john and colleen LIE ABOUT WHAT THEY CAN DO?  terrorizing and punsihsing people into changing is NOT TREATMETN OR THERAPY, i dont care what BL or anyone says.  PEOPLE HAVE DIED BECUASE OF JOHN, I know this, not in the program BUT AFTER BECAUSE OF JOHN BEING NEGLECTFUL? NEGLIGENT? BASICALLY A LIAR!
Title: Addie Harris???
Post by: BarnardlyB on June 11, 2006, 11:02:00 PM
Many of us agree with you anon,
I see where you are coming from and hear your point in a general, overall experience.
Yet, many girls had a good time at MMS and their experience was very different from yours.
As babylove asks over and over, why treat the girls who you dissagree with, with the same view and attituide you blame john for??  why critize and ridicule us the same way you believe John treated eveyone, esp you????

We all have our own views and im personally willing to do what it takes to make this even.....
even if it means running backwards laps... :lol:
I don't know where to begin but I can find a way and im willing.
I didn't think this site was supposed to be about 'im right your wrong' but if it has to be...lets do this.   No one here is right and no one is wrong.....each of us wants the other to see all points and views...lets ALL try and do that.
I personally feel connected to all the girls I went to MMS with, even the ones I interned with, no  matter what we all have that connection.  Lets not let a simple thing as a different view split us all in half....
Title: Addie Harris???
Post by: Anonymous on June 12, 2006, 01:10:00 AM
yyeea i do see that kind of Betsy.  i just feel like if like idont undertsand how people dont think being LOCKED UP and then PUNISHED to make us change, and not given REAL THERAPY and who were really vulnerable. i dont understand how someone, anyone not be very very bothered by that. if they also understand that their friends and others were severly hurt and scarred
Title: Addie Harris???
Post by: Anonymous on June 18, 2006, 12:22:00 PM
I suppose early I may have felt like "waging a war" against MMS. However, I am 30 years old and havent got the time, money, or energy to wage a war. I think it is funny because if you read anythng I have written you can clearly see that I take a neutral stance on any issue but do have some acknowledgement that some wrong doings went on during my stay at the school.

Anger about situations kind of left about 4 years ago. Maybe it's that I am a mother. It may be because I grew up a little and see people as people who are capable of making mistakes. I have no idea. I just know I asked if anyone had seen Addie and this argument was a brush fire of mean statements.

Sometimes I wonder if people are angry that they are stuck as a teenager mentally? I know that they say we stop growing emotionally when we use or drink, but we have no excuse to act like a child.
Title: Addie Harris???
Post by: babylove on June 18, 2006, 01:12:00 PM
I spoke with addie a few days agao. Do you want her info?
Title: Addie Harris???
Post by: Anonymous on June 18, 2006, 01:24:00 PM
Yes. Email it to [email protected]
Title: Addie Harris???
Post by: katfish on June 18, 2006, 08:20:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-06-18 09:22:00, Anonymous wrote:

Anger about situations kind of left about 4 years ago. Maybe it's that I am a mother. It may be because I grew up a little and see people as people who are capable of making mistakes. I have no idea. I just know I asked if anyone had seen Addie and this argument was a brush fire of mean statements.

Sometimes I wonder if people are angry that they are stuck as a teenager mentally? I know that they say we stop growing emotionally when we use or drink, but we have no excuse to act like a child.


Yea, I'm definitely not as outraged anymore, I've vented considerably on this site... I think I'm defintely still angry that this continues to happen, but it's less about me... While people make mistakes I don't find that to be excusable in any way...

In addition to drinking and drugging being soemthing that developmentally effects a person, trauma has the same effect as well... I can only assume MMS developmentally impacted many girls in this respect in addition to addiction or co-disorder as well. Ones 'excuse' may be anothers 'rationale', I think it's hard to say one way or the other unless you are that person or are close to that person...not always, of cousre...I think there have also been  a number of posts by recent alumni who are indeed quite young, I think this may possibly help explain some of what you talking about here, in addtion to possible abuse of substances.  I would not be so presumptiuous as to assume this is the case- we have no way of knowing if someone is actively acting out addiction.  I would also hesitate if only because MMS is 12 steps based and their is so much guilt arround this issue, regardless of whether or not one was in fact 'addicted' and it appears to me to be a bit antagonistical.
Title: Addie Harris???
Post by: Anonymous on June 19, 2006, 03:29:00 AM
I have to say that I'm very confused by the former poster Sarah.  I think  a lot of girls have done one heck of a job around this issue and around MMS.  Heck, Claire spoke to reporters.  Quite a number of girls have made themselves available to speak with the press and shared their story with Congress.
I kind of feel like your just being a negative nancy for reasons unknown to me.

 - -


At Some Youth ?Treatment? Facilities, ?Tough Love? Takes Brutal Forms
by Michelle Chen
Children?s advocates are taking aim at privately run programs that treat kids with a range of problems as delinquents who need to be straightened out by force.

Nov. 21, 2005 ? If this was therapy, it sure didn't feel like it. From September to January, Claire Kent spent her days digging up tree stumps from a barren field, her mind and body battered by the elements. The work was part of her "treatment" for the drinking and sex that had landed her at a boarding school for "troubled teens."

In the Montana woods, Kent and a couple dozen other adolescent girls had been committed by their families to a disciplinary program that included chopping wood, exercising to the point of physical breakdown, and being regularly bullied and insulted by "counselors" ? all in the name of what the private treatment industry calls "emotional growth."

"It was just based on, 'How badly can I scare you?'," said Kent, now in her late twenties and still suffering from anxiety that she attributes to her experience. During her two-year stay, she said, "they gave me the reality that life was just completely unfair and was going to keep being that way."

The facility where Kent was held, the Mission Mountain School, is still in business today. Though staff declined repeated requests for comment, the recent explosion of hundreds of other so-called "private residential treatment facilities" speaks to the growing popularity of the "tough love" approach to "reforming" youth. Behavioral health experts estimate that the industry deals with roughly 10,000 to 14,000 children and teens, charging typical tuition rates of tens of thousands of dollars per year. The patrons are anxious parents hoping for a solution to issues ranging from attention deficit disorder to drug abuse. Worth approximately $1 billion, emotional growth programs thrive on the promise of turning "bad" kids "good."

Though some mental health professionals believe residential treatment could be helpful in extreme circumstances, horrific experiences reported by young people confined to unregulated facilities prompt questions about who is caring for them, and who is held accountable when care becomes abuse?

"It appears that there's a growth industry of very harsh kinds of programs that are using confrontational therapies, incredibly strict discipline, the kind of exhaust-them-until-they-break-down kind of [practices]," said Charles Huffine, an adolescent psychiatrist with the advocacy coalition Alliance for the Safe, Therapeutic and Appropriate use of Residential Treatment. "These are practices that are much more akin to certain kinds of harsh prison conditions than they are to anything that would be remotely considered therapy."

Private residential treatment facilities take various forms, from camp lodges in Montana to militaristic disciplinary compounds on foreign territory. The main defining features are physically isolated campuses and in many areas, virtually no formal government oversight.

Growing alongside the teen "help" industry is the political and legal backlash against tactics that some view as cruel and bizarre. In recent years, several facilities have closed following abuse investigations. Activists are also promoting the End Institutionalized Abuse Against Children Act, which would fund state and local monitoring of treatment facilities, along with the Keeping Families Together Act, which would enhance access to community-based behavioral healthcare. Yet youth advocates and former program participants caution that legislative action would merely dent the complex culture surrounding institutions that aim to "fix" youth.

At especially harsh facilities, said Huffine, once adolescents are inside, "as human beings they have no rights. They cannot stand up and say, I have been slimed, I have been harmed, I have been hurt, I want out of this."
Rules and Consequences

One night, a few months before his high school graduation, Charles King was awakened by strangers, handcuffed, and told he was being taken somewhere to get help. When his escorts released him, he found himself in another country, locked in a concrete compound, watching a dismal parade of shaved-headed youngsters marching silently in a line.

King's new home was Tranquility Bay in Jamaica, part of a network of behavior modification facilities tied to the Utah-based corporation World Wide Association Specialty Programs and Schools (WWASPS).

"You weren't allowed to talk, you couldn't call home to your family," recalled King, now in his mid-twenties. "You weren't allowed to do anything, basically, without permission ? and if you did, there were consequences."

"Consequences" is the term WWASPS facilities prefer instead of "punishment." Under a point system, participants theoretically earn privileges for following rules and suffer consequences for breaking them: completing intensive chores or sitting obediently through self-help "emotional growth" videos might after a few months earn a kid the prerogative to call home.

But King recalls the consequences more clearly than the rewards: spending days on end in detention, known as "observation placement," lying rigid with his face plastered to the floor, under the surveillance of domineering staff. Seared in his memory, and reported by other former detainees, are the frequent screams of boys and girls who endured special disciplinary sessions in isolation at the hands of staff.

"They thought they were going to die; that's what it sounded like to me," King said.

In California, families of former participants have sued WWASPS and several affiliated schools, claiming abuse and inhumane living conditions. Though children's advocates consider WWASPS schools an extreme example of behavior modification programming, the company's promises of bringing "structure" to kids' lives are common throughout the industry.

Dismissing the allegations of mistreatment as groundless, Director Jay Kay told The NewStandard that Tranquility Bay "has assisted kids and families in ways hard to put into words." He continued, "We are about character-building, emotional growth, therapy and family values."

WWASPS President Ken Kay, Jay's father, argued that compared to psychiatric treatment or the prison system, the WWASPS approach is in fact a more humane way to modify destructive behavior in young people.

"It's extremely necessary in society," he told TNS, "to have something between running rampant with negative behavior and juvenile detention or mental lockdown."

On the issue of human rights, the elder Kay remarked, "Children have the right to expect that when they're getting so far out of line, someone is going to rein them in a little bit."
A Tight Leash

According to critics in the mental health community, even programs that are not outright physically abusive can still be degrading and traumatic, especially for vulnerable adolescents already struggling with emotional issues.

Intensive "wilderness" activities, for instance, are billed as a method of building maturity, but some former program participants say that they serve mainly to break spirits.

"It was really about establishing authority and control," said Kathryn Whitehead, who entered Mission Mountain after a suicide attempt at age 13. The work and exercise programs, she said, aim to exhaust girls until they "can't hold anything in. So, you purge yourself of whatever demons you're carrying."

Claire Kent said her stump-digging assignment was the penalty for not giving the staff a detailed enough account of her sexual history ? a requirement for all participants.

Between labor sessions in the woods, Kent described navigating a constrained social system in which girls were forced to "disclose" all secrets. Staff routinely rebutted confessions with accusations of lying or withholding information, she said, so girls wound up spinning made-up stories of abuse or family dysfunction just to gain a counselor's approval.

The pressure to confess, Kent said, was compounded by the stress of obeying seemingly arbitrary rules. When the staff deemed excessive toilet use a punishable offense, for example, she recalled that girls resorted to soiling themselves to avoid going to the bathroom.

"They used fear to change us," she said. "We were not changing for positive reasons."

But Larry Stednitz, an educational consultant who refers parents to youth facilities and has visited Mission Mountain, defended work regimens as a useful way of keeping kids occupied. "If you don't structure things pretty tightly," he said, "you're going to have problems."

Indeed, some former participants feel that this structure benefited them in the long run. In an essay featured on the strugglingteens.com website, which is run by educational consultants, former Mission Mountain participant Kristie Vollar used language similar to Whitehead's to argue that the intense stress helps girls by making them "physically, mentally and emotionally worn out until there isn't enough energy left to hide 'what's really going on'."

Such positive perceptions do not surprise Kent; she takes them as evidence that the program succeeds in inducing total, self-obliterating submission. "The other 30 girls there, you know, were believing in the program," she recalled. "You eventually believed in it, too: that you were this rotten, filthy, horrible kid, and that Mission Mountain saved your life."
Credibility Gap

An undercurrent of distrust runs through the controversy over these authoritarian adolescent management facilities. Program administrators suggest that troubled youth cannot be trusted to act in their personal best interest and insist that complaints of mistreatment should be viewed with similar skepticism.

Ken Kay countered abuse allegations by pointing to the results of parent questionnaires administered by WWASPS. According to parents, kids have what he calls "a huge history of manipulation and misrepresenting the truth." These youth, he concluded, "have a bad habit of lying to their parents, their school people, to their friends? And so I don't expect that, you know, they are going to stop lying."

For 18-year-old Sean Hellinger, who languished for about two years in residential treatment ? first at a Montana-based WWASPS institution called Spring Creek Lodge and later a similar program in Utah? advocating for himself led to a catch-22. Each complaint about severe and humiliating treatment by the Spring Creek staff, he recalled, would run up against the presumption of "manipulation." It was futile to protest to his parents, he said, because staff would inevitably convince them he was lying to get out of the facility.

"You can't talk to the outside world, and when you can, it's all censored," he said. "And your parents don't believe you?. I was ignored, betrayed."
Parental Misguidance

Advocates calling for tighter regulation of residential facilities say that some programs bank on desperation and lure parents with deceptive advertising. Critics of the industry say consultants and recruiters market programs to families by rapidly "diagnosing" serious emotional problems in children and sometimes offering help in securing a fast tuition loan. Meanwhile, parents are left unaware that the program is not clinically licensed, or lacks an adequate trained staff.

Nicki Bush, a psychology graduate student who interned at a rural residential treatment facility, said administrators convinced parents to sink their savings into behavioral treatment that their children supposedly needed. While many children did have serious psychological disorders, she observed it was not uncommon for kids to end up at the facility "because they were having sex with some 20-year-old guy, and [the parents] found a joint, or something like that."

Cristine Gomez, one of the plaintiffs in the WWASPS lawsuit, said aggressive marketing persuaded her to send her son, who was having trouble in school and suffering from attention deficit disorder, first to Spring Creek Lodge and eventually to Tranquility Bay. She told TNS, "I took for granted that they were licensed and regulated? I assumed that somebody was keeping track of basic indications of the safety of the children."

In the end, troubling letters describing the conditions in the Jamaica facility compelled her to bring her son home. Four years later, she said he suffers from deep psychological trauma and refuses to speak openly about the experience. Calling the decision to send her son away "the biggest mistake I ever made in my life," Gomez said, "It's just the opposite of what our intent was, what we were sold."
The Cost of Reform

Although several months of residential treatment might at least temporarily stem problematic behavior, experts warn that short-term "success" could mask long-term scars. Some survivors of the treatment experiences report recurring nightmares, anxiety attacks and depression.

In King's case, the cost of survival at Tranquility Bay was emotional desensitization. "After the first month, it broke me," he said, "and after that, I was numb to, you know, anything that was happening." The experience also stoked an angry desire to return to the lifestyle that his family had previously disapproved of. "It almost made me dream about doing those things again," he said, "instead of what it's supposed to do."

Some mental health advocates say oppressive rule systems, in which youth are subjected to constant punishment and accusations of dishonesty and immorality, could crumple an adolescent's social development.

Hellinger characterized the rules imposed on him as "totalitarian. You say what you're allowed to say, which is, you know, that you agree with everything they say." The staff members, he said, "wanted me to be their little programmed machine."

Yet proponents of residential treatment argue that while "tough love" might not feel good, it is necessary to reform a self-destructive teen.

Bob Carter is convinced that a residential program in rural Utah transformed his son from an unruly teen into a responsible adult. He believes the program's key feature is "a positive, conformist sort of element," which becomes "indoctrinated by the kids themselves." Soon, he explained, "they create an environment where the kids more monitor each other than anything else."

But in Huffine's view, "turning kids into narcs is not a good thing, in terms of how you want to help kids? establish some sense of their own social ethics."

Bush said that while a young person could eventually learn to adhere reflexively to rules in a confined environment, conformity itself is not a healthy goal. "You might condition? a rat or a monkey to do something if you punish them enough," she commented. "But it doesn't mean there's been some insight or great growth."
Curbing "Emotional Growth"

Mental health advocacy groups say that in order to prevent mistreatment, the government must hold private treatment facilities to some clinically based standard of care. As an initial step, they are pushing the End Institutionalized Abuse Against Children bill, which would provide seed money to develop state-level regulations.

While some service providers, including WWASPS, have publicly supported moderate state-based regulation, the industry group National Association of Therapeutic Schools and Programs has contended that bureaucratic monitoring could hinder innovation, and that the government should defer to the industry's own internally developed guidelines.

But Robert Friedman, chair of the Department of Child and Family Studies at the University of South Florida, warned that given the evidence of mistreatment, "there's a danger that if left to self-regulate? there may be the illusion that there's adequate accountability. And that, in some cases, could be worse than at least not having any illusion."

Nonetheless, youth advocates say legal restraints will accomplish little unless the government strengthens and expands the youth behavioral health system.

Mental health experts note that the parents who enroll children in private facilities typically lack insurance coverage for complex therapies. Meanwhile, openings in local mental health programs are so limited that thousands of families struggling to address their children's problems have felt forced to turn them over to the child-welfare or juvenile-justice systems so the state can provide appropriate treatment.

Amid these resource gaps, Friedman said, the growth of the residential treatment industry indicates the need to "develop services and supports close to home, so that families can get the help that they need."

Last year, research by the National Institutes of Health found that while coercive, fear-inducing treatment programs have not proven effective and could aggravate delinquent behavior, more holistic, family-centered approaches have demonstrated positive results in at-risk youth. One federal legislative proposal, the Keeping Families Together Act, would lift restrictions on a special Medicaid waiver to help families use public funds to access community-based treatment.

But enhancing treatment options is only part of the picture, according to Shelby Earnshaw, who underwent a behavior modification program as a teen and now directs the advocacy association International Survivors Action Committee. What fuels the private treatment industry, she argued, is a societal willingness to stigmatize youth with behavioral problems.

Parents who are desperate to "correct" their children, she said, tend to believe that a misbehaving teen is "not worthy of being treated as well? as a kid who didn't do drugs [or] who didn't get involved in crime. I have a big problem with that. Those kids need more help. They need to be treated better."
2005 The NewStandard. All rights reserved. The NewStandard is a non-profit publisher that encourages noncommercial reproduction of its content. Reprints must prominently attribute the author and The NewStandard, hyperlink to http://newstandardnews.net (http://newstandardnews.net) (online) or display newstandardnews.net (print), and carry this notice. For more information or commercial reprint rights, please see the TNS reprint policy.
Title: Addie Harris???
Post by: Anonymous on June 19, 2006, 04:49:00 AM
I am just saying that your attitude sucks when you dont get exactly the answer you want to hear. The school was definately responsible for crossing some ethical boundries, but how are you doing something to change the laws that protect the kids? Glad Claire wrote something but you insist on being a cunt to me because I wasnt quite sure state to state laws and said what I believed to be true about an agency.

You sure arent going to get far with people if you have managed to rub even me the wrong way. Who wants to work with someone who sits around all day picking apart words for someone that MAY just agree with the same 'idea' behind things. What you dont get is that I wont join a witch hunt. Im not a kid anymore and I dont do witch hunts well. Come up with something someone can work with and quit starting a brush fires and maybe someone will help you. No lawyer in their right mind can help you when you blast things all over the internet. How can they? You are ruining your own hard work.
Title: Addie Harris???
Post by: katfish on June 19, 2006, 06:41:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-06-19 01:49:00, Anonymous wrote:

"I am just saying that your attitude sucks when you dont get exactly the answer you want to hear. The school was definately responsible for crossing some ethical boundries, but how are you doing something to change the laws that protect the kids? Glad Claire wrote something but you insist on being a cunt to me because I wasnt quite sure state to state laws and said what I believed to be true about an agency.

who you talking to? I think that Sarah you take on this air of authority that comes across as if you're certain you know what you're talking about and yet...


Quote
What you dont get is that I wont join a witch hunt. Im not a kid anymore and I dont do witch hunts well. Come up with something someone can work with and quit starting a brush fires and maybe someone will help you. No lawyer in their right mind can help you when you blast things all over the internet. How can they? You are ruining your own hard work."


what witch hunt?  ruining what work?

I think we have a good number of people, as I've stated it makes little difference to me- if you're talking to me- I'm not here to convince you to do something you're not inclined to do on you're own.

Maybe someone will help?  lol, I think the folks we have working on this issue are already exactly the folks we want on this... Intentional or not, you almost sound like you want someone to sell you on this, I think that's odd...it's almost as if you feel you would be doing 'us' a favor when this isn't even about us.
Title: Addie Harris???
Post by: katfish on June 19, 2006, 06:46:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-06-18 09:22:00, Anonymous wrote:

"I suppose early I may have felt like "waging a war" against MMS. However, I am 30 years old and havent got the time, money, or energy to wage a war. I think it is funny because if you read anythng I have written you can clearly see that I take a neutral stance on any issue but do have some acknowledgement that some wrong doings went on during my stay at the school.



Anger about situations kind of left about 4 years ago. Maybe it's that I am a mother. It may be because I grew up a little and see people as people who are capable of making mistakes. I have no idea. I just know I asked if anyone had seen Addie and this argument was a brush fire of mean statements.



Sometimes I wonder if people are angry that they are stuck as a teenager mentally? I know that they say we stop growing emotionally when we use or drink, but we have no excuse to act like a child."


I think it's important not to chastise people that may be angry and have a valid reason to do so and imply they are somehow 'stuck in teenager' mentality for being angry.

What does 'waging war' against MMS even mean?  That does indeed sound quite childish, I can't imagine anyone who feels anger towards MMS coined that term.  Anyone who would like to see some accountability from them and the industry in general is not going to call this waging war, I don't think- that's such an delibetrate exageration that oozes irrationality and hysteria.  It's about efficacy and ethics, bottom line- protection of the human and consitutional rights of youth- period.[ This Message was edited by: katfish on 2006-06-19 15:48 ]
Title: Addie Harris???
Post by: Anonymous on June 21, 2006, 11:29:00 AM
In an earlier post someone said I was , "waging a war" on MMS. I wonder if that is why Deb and Mike didnt return my calls?

It isnt a term someone from our generation would use, I can tell you that. I think that comment coupled with the "fuck you, no fuck you" statements I was reading set me off.

Maybe it was a good thing my computer was shut down for a couple of days.