Fornits
General Interest => Tacitus' Realm => Topic started by: Cayo Hueso on March 18, 2005, 09:55:00 AM
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I don't know if anyone has been following this, but its really getting out of hand. This poor girl has been a vegetable for about 15 years now. Every time there's hope that she'll be allowed to go, Jeb and his cronies step in and try and create a new law to keep the tube from being removed.
http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/18/schia ... index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/18/schiavo.brain-damaged/index.html)
Last-ditch bid in right-to-die case
House committee to issue subpoena to stop removal of feeding tube
Friday, March 18, 2005 Posted: 9:19 AM EST (1419 GMT)
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Employing an "extraordinary congressional" maneuver, House Republican leadership early Friday made a last-ditch effort to keep doctors from removing Terri Schiavo's feeding tube.
Schiavo is scheduled to have her feeding tube removed at 1 p.m. today, under court order.
"Later this morning, we will issue a subpoena, which will require hospice administrators and attending physicians to preserve nutrition and hydration for Terri Schiavo to allow Congress to fully understand the procedures and practices that are currently keeping her alive," a statement from the House Republican leadership said.
That statement was released by House Speaker Dennis Hastert, House Majority Leader Tom DeLay and Government Reform Committee Chairman Tom Davis. Details of the subpoena were not immediately clear and it was not revealed whom it actually targeted.
"The Committee on Government Reform has initiated an inquiry into the long- term care of incapacitated adults, an issue of growing importance to the federal government and federal healthcare policy," the statement said.
"This inquiry should give hope to Terri, her parents and friends, and the millions of people throughout the world who are praying for her safety. This fight is not over."
The statement also said there will be a Senate investigation as well.
In 1990, when she was 26, Terri Schiavo collapsed in her home and suffered severe brain damage when oxygen to her brain was interrupted for five minutes. Lower courts have ruled that she is in a "persistent vegetative" state.
Since then, she has been at the heart of a legal tug-of-war between her parents and her husband, who have have been fighting over whether to keep her on life support. Her husband, Michael Schivao, wants her feeding tube removed.
Subpoena tried before
Regarding the subpoena, Ron Bonjean, a spokesman for Hastert, said: "We're on very comfortable ground that we have a federal interest in long-term care."
Five years ago, the same House committee issued a subpoena for 6-year-old Elian Gonzalez with the goal of preventing federal immigration officials from returning the refugee to Cuba.
Rep. Dan Burton, R-Indiana, who was then chairman of the House Government Reform Committee, said the subpoena would "provide a measure of legal protection while the court is considering this case." While the tactic was never tested because court action delayed Elian's deportation for months, it remained a potential delaying device.
In Schiavo's case, the U.S. Supreme Court late Thursday rejected an emergency appeal by her parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, to stop the removal of her feeding tube, while legislation that would keep her alive appeared to stall in Florida's legislature and in Congress.
"The family's attorney will be in the hospice this morning with the subpoenas," Randall Terry, a lobbyist for Schiavo's parents and president of the anti-abortion group Society for Truth and Justice, told CNN Radio.
"And if anyone tries to remove Terri's feeding tube, he's going to say, 'Look, I've got a subpoena here from the federal government, and if you do that, you'll be in for a big lawsuit and you might be in the criminal case as well.' "
Friday morning, protesters were beginning to gather outside the Clearwater, Florida, hospice where Schiavo lives.
Other legal moves
On another front, the Florida Supreme Court rejected a request for a stay by the state's Department of Children and Family Services, citing a lack of jurisdiction. The agency had argued that it needed time to investigate allegations of abuse by Schiavo's guardian, her husband Michael.
In Washington, the U.S. Senate passed a narrower version of a House bill that would give federal courts jurisdiction in Schiavo's case. The House on Wednesday passed a broader bill that would give federal courts jurisdiction, not only for the Schiavo case, but for disabled people in similar conditions.
With the House already recessed for Easter, it appeared that a compromise bill would not make its way to President Bush's desk, because there was not enough time to reconcile the differences.
Schiavo's husband, Michael, contends his wife would not want to be kept alive artificially. But her parents argue she had no such death wish and believe she can get better with rehabilitation.
Both sides have been embroiled in a legal wrangle over whether Schiavo should live or die. Schiavo did not leave anything in writing about what she would want if she ever became incapacitated.
Over the years, courts have sided with her husband in more than a dozen cases.
Her feeding tube has been removed twice before, most recently in 2003. That year, Gov. Jeb Bush pushed a law through the Florida Legislature that authorized him to resume the woman's feedings six days after a court stopped them. The law was later ruled unconstitutional by the Florida Supreme Court.
I cannot believe in the immortality of the soul.... No, all this talk of an existence for us, as individuals, beyond the grave is wrong. It is born of our tenacity of life -- our desire to go on living -- our dread of coming to an end.
--Thomas Edison, American inventor
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http://northlouisiana.cox.net/cci/newsn ... =D88UDCJ00 (http://northlouisiana.cox.net/cci/newsnational/national?_mode=view&_state=maximized&view=article&id=D88UDCJ00)
Bush Changing Schedule to Return to Washington to Sign Emergency Legislation on Schiavo Case
President Bush arrives in Waco, Texas at the Texas State Technical College airport at the end of a day of selling his Social Security reform proposals in Florida, Friday, March 18, 2005. Bush travels on to his ranch in Waco, Texas, for the remainder of the weekend. (AP Photo/J. Scott Applewhite)
03-19-2005 7:47 PM
By JENNIFER LOVEN, Associated Press Writer
CRAWFORD, Texas -- President Bush is changing his schedule to return to the White House on Sunday to be in place to sign emergency legislation that would shift the case of a brain-damaged Florida woman to federal courts, the White House said Saturday.
"Everyone recognizes that time is important here," White House press secretary Scott McClellan said. "This is about defending life."
After Terri Schiavo's feeding tube was removed on Friday, members of Congress worked out a deal to pass legislation to allow federal courts to decide the 41-year-old woman's fate and _ in the hopes of supporters of the woman's parents _ restore the tube that was keeping her alive.
The House and Senate hoped to act on the legislation Sunday, so Bush decided he needed to be in Washington so he could immediately sign the bill, McClellan said.
"The president intends to sign legislation as quickly as possible once it is passed," McClellan said.
During previous travels, Bush has had legislation flown to him overnight by military plane for his signature. But in this case, McClellan said that the fact that a woman's life is at stake made it necessary for him to travel to the bill.
"Terri Schiavo's feeding tube has been removed and we stand with ... all those who are working to defend her life," he said.
Bush was spending the weekend at his ranch in Crawford, Texas, arriving there Friday night after a day traveling in Florida to pitch his plans to overhaul Social Security.
On Monday, he was to leave from Texas for a two-day trip in the West to continue pitching his Social Security proposals. Now, McClellan said, he would likely keep his Social Security appearances but depart for them from Washington instead.
On Wednesday, Bush is due to host Mexican President Vicente Fox and Canadian Prime Minister Paul Martin at his ranch, and there was no indication that would change.
He was then to spend the rest of the Easter week before returning to Washington March 28.
McClellan said that Bush had not talked with any members of Congress Saturday about the case, but was kept apprised by his staff. He dismissed any suggestion that there were any political considerations at work, either in the quick and aggressive congressional action or the president's hurried return to the White House.
The Senate convened briefly Saturday evening to give formal permission for the House to meet Sunday, when it otherwise would be adjourned for the Easter recess.
The plan is for the House to act on the two-page bill Sunday or just after midnight Monday morning. Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist said the Senate then would act on the House legislation, assuming it passes the House as envisioned.
Copyright 2005 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
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This situation is SO pissing me off.
Her life (and death) is between HER and her HUSBAND! EVERYONE ELSE (including her parents, the courts, government, etc.) need to BUTT OUT!
(By the way, I am a Christian. It's people like those protesters shown on the News at her Hospice location that give Christians a bad rap)
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http://www.sptimes.com/2005/03/22/Colum ... tten.shtml (http://www.sptimes.com/2005/03/22/Columns/With_all_laws_flatten.shtml)
With all laws flattened, where will we hide?
By HOWARD TROXLER, Times Columnist
Published March 22, 2005
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The end justifies the means.
When you have enough power, you can tell the courts to get lost, you can overrule the self-government of an entire state, you can obliterate the rule of law.
It does not matter that Florida's courts ruled that Terri Schiavo expressed the wish not to be kept alive artificially. We are entitled to ignore court rulings.
Neither does it matter that the doctors say that her brain has largely turned to fluid. We may dismiss these facts with a wave of the hand, or a sound bite on CNN.
Congress knows all. The federal government knows all. The strutting Tom DeLay and the unctuous Bill Frist know more than all the judges and doctors combined.
They are cynically armed with their internal memo about how many votes they are going to get out of the Christians. Some members of Congress speechified without knowing how to pronounce Terri Schiavo's name, or the most basic facts.
Tom DeLay's conduct is odious. He represents everything bad about Congress. His principal pastime is raising large amounts of money from wicked people in return for hurting the public good.
The notion that Tom DeLay of Texas is entitled to usurp Florida's rule of law with the claim of being morally superior is akin to Bill Clinton coming down to lecture us on marital fidelity.
On top of that, anyone in the way of these half-witted bombasts is a devil. It is not possible that Michael Schiavo might actually believe he is doing what Terri wanted - no. He is a murderer. It is not possible Judge George Greer actually made what he thought was the correct legal decision - he is "merciless."
If you are cheering because Congress acted in the midnight hour to "save" Terri, be sure of what you are cheering for.
You are applauding a Congress for throwing out the rulings of the courts, throwing out the due process of the states, and substituting its own will.
The difference between me and so-called "conservatives" is that when I say the power of government is a dangerous beast to be feared, I actually mean it.
Let me ask you a question.
Let's say that the next president is ... Hillary Rodham Clinton.
I know, I know. But just say.
Do you also believe that ol' Hil should have the power to wipe out the rulings of the courts and the states, with the wave of her magic wand?
No?
Then maybe you are clinging to a very foolish belief. Maybe you believe that the government will trample over the courts only when you agree. Well, good luck.
There was an Englishman named Thomas More. He is most famous for refusing to approve Henry VIII's divorce, and paying for his principles with his head.
In the play about More's life titled A Man for All Seasons , More debates a character named Roper, who wants to ignore the law to fight evil:
Roper: So now you'd give the devil the benefit of law?
More: Yes. What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the devil?
Roper: Yes, I'd cut down every tree in England to do that.
More: Oh, and when the last law was down and the devil turned 'round on you where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country is planted thick with laws from coast to coast, man's laws not God's, and if you cut them down - and you're just the man to do it - do you really think that you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I'd give the devil the benefit of the law, for my own safety's sake.
For the sake of headlines and self-righteousness, the U.S. Congress waited until the final seconds of a yearslong, agonizing legal process to say that our law does not count. Many well-meaning people are cheering. And so one more tree falls.
* * *
My e-mail address is [email protected] My telephone number is 727 893-8505. I will be delighted to hear and read anything intelligent you have to say about this case. Helpful hint: Personal insults or calling me "liberal" for opposing the power of government don't count.
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Florida officials move again to intervene in Schiavo case
Wednesday, March 23, 2005 Posted: 5:01 PM EST (2201 GMT)
Florida Gov. Jeb Bush announces a new legal filing in the Terri Schiavo case.
http://www.cnn.com/2005/ALLPOLITICS/03/ ... index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2005/ALLPOLITICS/03/23/schiavo.jeb.bush/index.html)
TALLAHASSEE, Florida (CNN) -- Florida authorities have filed a new request to intervene in the case of brain-damaged Florida woman Terri Schiavo, arguing that new information suggests her condition may have been misdiagnosed, Gov. Jeb Bush said Wednesday.
A neurologist who reviewed Schiavo's medical records for the state Department of Children and Families indicated that she is "most likely in a state of minimal consciousness," rather than the persistent vegetative state previous doctors have diagnosed, Bush said.
The doctor reviewed Schiavo's medical records, watched videotapes and observed her at the hospice, but was not able to personally examine her, state officials said.
"This new information raises serious concerns and warrants immediate action," Bush said.
The request comes amid last-ditch efforts to restore a feeding tube for Schiavo, who suffered severe brain damage in 1990 after heart failure linked to an eating disorder. Schiavo, now 41, has been at the center of a legal and moral tug-of-war between her husband, Michael, and her parents for years.
The governor's announcement came as federal appeals court in Atlanta rejected her parents' latest attempt to obtain a federal court order restoring the feeding tube.
Earlier Wednesday, a three-judge panel of the 11th Circuit in Atlanta denied the Schindlers' emergency request to restore the tube in a 2-1 vote.
On Monday, President Bush, explaining his signing of a bill moving the case from state courts to federal courts, said, "This is an extra sad case, and I believe in a case such as this, the legislative branch, the executive branch ought to err on the side of life, which we have. And now we'll watch the courts make their decisions."
Florida courts, which also reviewed medical records and videotapes, previously have rejected arguments put forth by doctors retained by Schiavo's parents that she is not in a persistent vegetative state.
Michael Schiavo insists that his wife would never want to continue to live in her condition -- what Florida courts have deemed a persistent vegetative state.
People in such a condition cannot think, speak or respond to commands and are not aware of their surroundings.
Terri Schiavo collapsed in her home in 1990, suffering from heart failure that led to severe brain damage. Michael Schiavo said his wife suffered from bulimia that resulted in a potassium deficiency, triggering the heart failure.
The Schindlers said because of the absence of a living will, or written document, clearly spelling out her wishes, their daughter's due process rights have been violated. They said her Roman Catholic faith would prevent her from wanting to die this way.
They also contend that their daughter's condition could improve with treatment.
Court rulings have held that Michael Schiavo is his wife's legal guardian and has the right to make decisions regarding her care.
Terri Schiavo's feeding tube was removed Friday.
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Even though I agree with her husband, her parents had her for so many more years. I wonder why he didn't give them power of attorney? I wish they would change the laws.
I think it is sick to have her die from lack of food. We should be allowed to have an injection like our dying pets do.
Jack Kovorkeon is a hero. He helped dying people end their suffering, quickly.
Did Terri Schiavo die yet? This whole ordeal is so upsetting. I feel for both sides.
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On 2005-03-25 19:14:00, Llahsram wrote:
"Even though I agree with her husband, her parents had her for so many more years. I wonder why he didn't give them power of attorney?
Because he maintains that Terri would not have wanted to be kept alive like this.
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how ironic that there is all this rumpus about keeping a feeding tube in a woman who is likely in this condition because of bulimia.
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Heather Boushey is an economist at the Center for Economic and Policy Research in Washington, DC.
On Friday, a woman in Florida went hungry. Hundreds protested and sent letters to Congress. Congressional leaders became so enraged that they have called a special vote to ensure that this woman is provided with food. Congressional intervention is necessary, they argue, because access to food is her ?constitutional right.?
On Friday, a woman in Florida went hungry. No one protested. The Senate was so indifferent to her and her family?s hunger that they voted down a measure that would have prevented $2.8 billion in cuts to the Food Stamp program over the next five years.
While Congress has spent the past few days making heroic efforts to restore the feeding tubes to Terri Schiavo, a Florida woman who has been in a vegetative state for 15 years, they have also been debating the federal budget. While Terri Schiavo?s case has sparked passion about her right to live and her right to health care and food, there is no passion for the millions of Americans who go hungry every day or the millions more who lack access to basic health care.
President Bush cut his vacation short to return to Washington so he could sign into law legislation that would restore Terri Schiavo?s feeding tubes. Last month, President Bush proposed a budget to Congress that would cut the Food Stamp program by $500 million over the next five years, leaving more than 300,000 low-income people without food assistance every month.
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She didn't mention that recently it was decided that the minimum wage would not be increased either. What will those millions do?
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She's gone.
http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/31/schiavo/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/31/schiavo/index.html)
Terri Schiavo has died
Thursday, March 31, 2005 Posted: 10:07 AM EST (1507 GMT)
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Terri Schiavo, the 41-year-old brain-damaged woman who became the centerpiece of a national right-to-die battle, died Thursday morning, nearly two weeks after doctors removed the feeding tube that had sustained her for more than a decade.
Brother Paul O'Donnell, a spokesman for Bob and Mary Schindler, Schiavo's parents, said the couple was with their daughter's body and praying.
Wednesday, the Schindlers lost what their lawyer described as their "last meaningful legal appeal" in their desperate battle to have their brain-damaged daughter's feeding tube reinserted.
The U.S. Supreme Court late Wednesday refused once again to hear an emergency appeal from the Schindlers.
Their lawyer, David Gibbs, heard the high court had rejected the appeal during a news conference outside the Pinellas Park, Florida, hospice where Schiavo was receiving care.
"It appears that that will be the last meaningful legal appeal unless something comes up," Gibbs had said. "Fundamentally, the decision of the Florida courts will remain unchanged and the federal courts have declined to get involved."
Thursday morning, O' Donnell said that Schiavo was in her final hours of life, and police have prohibited her blood relatives from spending time with her.
O'Donnell, one of the family's spiritual advisers, said that her parents and siblings were "begging to be at her bedside...but are being denied."
Michael Schiavo was Terri's guardian and controlled who may visit her and when.
Pasco-Pinellas Circuit Judge George Greer in Clearwater, Florida, ordered the feeding tube removed March 18 at Michael Schiavo's request. He has said that his wife wouldn't have wanted to live in her condition -- what Florida courts have deemed a "persistent vegetative state."
The parents felt otherwise and had sought to take guardianship of their daughter from her husband. Their bitter court battles began in 1998.
"I don't understand why Michael Schiavo at some point didn't walk away," Gibbs said.
Justice Anthony Kennedy, who has jurisdiction over Florida, Georgia and Alabama, and could have ruled on the petition on his own, referred the appeal to the entire Supreme Court at 10:40 p.m. Wednesday.
There was no breakdown of the vote, and the high court issued no explanation for its decision. The petition had been filed earlier in the night.
It was the second time in a week the high court refused to hear the case, and the sixth time since 2001.
The Schindlers "can know they have done everything possible under the law in letting government know that they wanted to fight for the life of their daughter," Gibbs said.
In his Supreme Court filing, Gibbs and other lawyers for the parents wrote that removing the tube represented "an unconstitutional deprivation of Terri Schiavo's constitutional right to life."
The Supreme Court's rejection came hours after the 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Atlanta, Georgia, rejected the parents' petition 9-2. That court denied three similar requests from the parents last week.
In a concurring opinion of the Atlanta court's latest ruling, Judge Stanley Birch said Congress "chose to overstep constitutional boundaries" by passing a law to force the Schiavo case into federal courts.
Judges Gerald Tjoflat and Charles Wilson dissented, with Tjoflat writing that the Schindlers deserved a hearing on the merits of their argument.
On March 21, three days after Schiavo's feeding tube was removed, Congress passed a bill transferring jurisdiction of the case from Florida state court to a U.S. District Court, for a federal judge to review. President Bush signed it into law the next day. But federal courts refused to overturn the state courts' decision.
2002 videotapes released
The Pinellas County Probate Court has released nine of 11 videotapes of Terri Schiavo recorded in the summer of 2002 and shown in a Florida appeals court hearing on her medical condition.
The videos show several doctors talking to and examining Schiavo to get ready for their court testimony. The tapes were recorded from July to September 2002.
Family members, including her mother and husband, also appear in the video.
Two of the 11 tapes remain sealed by the court, but it was unclear why.
In October 2002, Florida's 2nd District Court of Appeal heard a week of testimony from five doctors who examined her, including two picked by Michael Schiavo, two by her parents and one picked by the court.
Three doctors, including one appointed by the court, testified that Terri Schiavo was in a persistent vegetative state with no hope of recovery. The two doctors selected by the Schindlers testified they thought she could recover.
The appellate court concurred with a lower court decision that Schiavo had no hope of recovery and that her feeding tube could be removed.
Terri Schiavo collapsed in her home in 1990, suffering from heart failure that led to severe brain damage because of lack of oxygen.
Her husband has said she suffered from bulimia, an eating disorder, that resulted in a potassium deficiency that triggered the heart failure.
CNN's Ninette Sosa, Bob Franken, Rich Phillips and Susan Candiotti contributed to this report.
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There never was any right thing to do. Letting her starve was obscene. Keeping her alive was obscene. Euthanizing her would have been obscene and illegal.
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What is obscene about euthanasia?
This country doesn't even starve to death its murders on death row. They die fairly quickly (most of the time) from lethal injection. Why make her family watch her slowly dehydrate to the point her tongue splits open? I think we have some sadists making policies in this country, confusing and contradictory policies to boot.
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First and foremost my sincerest condolences go out to the Schindler family for the final loss of their legal battle to save their daughter Terri Schiavo. Your grunting and drooling meat-shell suffered kidney failure followed by heart failure and finally her bone-dry husk stopped functioning completely. I understand your loss, all the more profound because Terri's immortal soul is simply a shallow conceit of hokey spiritualism. Her soul was nothing more than a crackling nest of nerve impulses that largely stopped existing when her own brand of starvation resulted in a heart attack 15 years ago. Even her emaciated flesh will soon be gone as the grim kiln of the crematorium bubbles and melts and sears her flesh until she is nothing but ash.
I really hope that your daughter's ultimate sacrifice - becoming a humiliating public spectacle for your financial and political gain and a tool for the character assassination of her husband - will pay dividends down the road and allow the Republican dominated legislative and executive branch to erode the checks and balances imposed by the tyranny of the judicial branch. Just like Terri always wanted. Perhaps her memory will live on amid the creeping buboes of Culture of Life groups and their shadowy revenue streams. Adieu Terri Schaivo, may you become the Horst Wessel of our time. Your death was not in vain. Millions, full of hope, look up at the stars and stripes.
Hehe
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Subject: Florida - Living Will
I, _________________________ (fill in the blank), being of sound mind and body, unequivocally declare that in the event of a catastrophic
injury, I do not wish to be kept alive indefinitely by artificial means.
I hereby instruct my loved ones and relatives to remove all life-support systems, once it has been determined that my brain is no longer functioning in a cognizant realm. However, that judgment should be made only after thorough consultation with medical experts; i.e., individuals who actually have been trained, educated and certified as doctors.
Under no circumstances -- and I can't state this too strongly -- should my fate be put in the hands of peckerwood politicians who couldn't pass
ninth-grade biology if their lives depended on it. Furthermore, it is my firm hope that, when the time comes, any discussion about terminating my medical treatment should remain private and confidential.
Living in Florida, however, I am acutely aware that the legislative and executive branches of state government are fond of meddling in family
matters, and have little concern for the privacy and dignity of individuals.
Therefore, I wish to make my views on this subject as clear and unambiguous as possible. Recognizing that some politicians seem
cerebrally challenged themselves (and with no medical excuse), I'll try to keep this simple and to the point:
1. While remaining sensitive to the feelings of loved ones who might cling to hope for my recovery, let me state that if a reasonable amount
of time passes -- say, ____ (fill in the blank) months -- and I fail to sit sit up and ask for a cold beer, it should be presumed that I won't
ever get better. When such a determination is reached, I hereby instruct my spouse, children and attending physicians to pull the plug, reel in the tubes and call it a day.
2. Under no circumstances shall the members of the Legislature enact a special law to keep me on life-support machinery. It is my wish that these boneheads mind their own damn business, and pay attention instead to the health, education and future of the millions of Floridians who aren't in a permanent coma.
3. Under no circumstances shall the governor of Florida butt into this case and order my doctors to put a feeding tube down my throat or through a hole into my abdomen to keep me alive. I don't care how many votes he's trying to scrounge for his run for the presidency in 2008, it is my wish that he plays politics with someone else's life and leaves me to die in peace.
4. I couldn't care less if a hundred zealots send e-mails to legislators in which they pretend to care about me. I don't know these people, and I certainly haven't authorized them to preach and crusade on my behalf. They should mind their own business, too.
5. It is my heartfelt wish to expire quietly and without a public spectacle.
This is obviously impossible once elected officials become involved. So, while recognizing the wrenching emotions that attend the prolonged death of a loved one, I hereby instruct my relatives to settle all disagreements about my care in private or in the courts, as provided by
law. If any of my family goes against my wishes and turns my case into a political cause, I hereby promise to come back from the grave and make his or her existence a living hell.
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Has anyone read about how her parents have now sold off the list of fund donors? Sold it off to several different groups, including right-to-lifers and Christian convervatives?
Sold it off so that these whack-os so they can spam everyone who sent support to the Schiavo cause. Talk about sick.
I'll tell you what....as I am sure some people on this board do as well, I know a thing or two about losing a child. I lost my 5 year old daughter in a car accident not two years ago.
Now, she didnt starve to death, peacefully, in her sleep....no, there were no loving arms to hold my baby when she passed on, in fact there was nothing but the sandy ground and the hot sun. She was thrown from the vehicle, and it was at least 30 minutes before she was found. Still not dead, but unable to communicate...she was taken in an ambulance and pronounced dead on arrival.
It makes me FURIOUS. Positively FURIOUS, that Terri's parents drug this out and out in order to avoid the grief process. Its sick. It ceased to be about Terri's survival, and more about their fear of loss. NO ONE in this world is truly entitled to ANYTHING. Bad things happen to good people every day, and all there is to do is go on being the best that you can be.
I applaud her husbands strength, and despise her parents weakness. I feel that when those we love are gone from this earth, it is imperative that we maintain an honorable, strong path forward without them...so that we may make them proud in ALL our endevours, wherever they may be. I feel not one ounce of sympathy for those people who fear death as if it were not part of life.
Just my thoughts.[ This Message was edited by: Carmel on 2005-04-05 07:33 ]
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On 2005-04-05 07:32:00, Carmel wrote:
"Has anyone read about how her parents have now sold off the list of fund donors? Sold it off to several different groups, including right-to-lifers and Christian convervatives?
Sold it off so that these whack-os so they can spam everyone who sent support to the Schiavo cause. Talk about sick.
I'll tell you what....as I am sure some people on this board do as well, I know a thing or two about losing a child. I lost my 5 year old daughter in a car accident not two years ago.
Now, she didnt starve to death, peacefully, in her sleep....no, there were no loving arms to hold my baby when she passed on, in fact there was nothing but the sandy ground and the hot sun. She was thrown from the vehicle, and it was at least 30 minutes before she was found. Still not dead, but unable to communicate...she was taken in an ambulance and pronounced dead on arrival.
It makes me FURIOUS. Positively FURIOUS, that Terri's parents drug this out and out in order to avoid the grief process. Its sick. It ceased to be about Terri's survival, and more about their fear of loss. NO ONE in this world is truly entitled to ANYTHING. Bad things happen to good people every day, and all there is to do is go on being the best that you can be.
I applaud her husbands strength, and despise her parents weakness. I feel that when those we love are gone from this earth, it is imperative that we maintain an honorable, strong path forward without them...so that we may make them proud in ALL our endevours, wherever they may be. I feel not one ounce of sympathy for those people who fear death as if it were not part of life.
Just my thoughts.[ This Message was edited by: Carmel on 2005-04-05 07:33 ]"
Applaude her husbands strenght? WHAT did he have to gain from starving her to death ? he had moved on with his life. He is the one that drug this out, all he had to do was give the parents back their right to care for their daughter. We would never smoke some low life criminal in the electric chair until all evidence was in of their guilt (well usually) or until all appeals weere exhausted. But in this case they began starving her befor all appeals were exhausted, there never was a living will only his word. All he had to do was giver her to her parents and walk away, instead he starved her. Let me keep food and water from you until you die and then you tell me how peaceful it is give me a break. Just my opinion, I am sorry for your loss as a parent I cannot begin to imagine going through that
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On 2005-04-01 20:59:00, Deborah wrote:
"
What is obscene about euthanasia?
This country doesn't even starve to death its murders on death row. They die fairly quickly (most of the time) from lethal injection. Why make her family watch her slowly dehydrate to the point her tongue splits open? I think we have some sadists making policies in this country, confusing and contradictory policies to boot. "
Hey Deb Starvation is NOT euthanasia
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Pay attention... I didn't say it was.
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On 2005-04-05 10:28:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
Pay attention... I didn't say it was."
Sorry my bad don't let it get your blood pressure up
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On 2005-04-05 10:13:00, thepatriot wrote:
"
On 2005-04-05 07:32:00, Carmel wrote:
"Has anyone read about how her parents have now sold off the list of fund donors? Sold it off to several different groups, including right-to-lifers and Christian convervatives?
Sold it off so that these whack-os so they can spam everyone who sent support to the Schiavo cause. Talk about sick.
I'll tell you what....as I am sure some people on this board do as well, I know a thing or two about losing a child. I lost my 5 year old daughter in a car accident not two years ago.
Now, she didnt starve to death, peacefully, in her sleep....no, there were no loving arms to hold my baby when she passed on, in fact there was nothing but the sandy ground and the hot sun. She was thrown from the vehicle, and it was at least 30 minutes before she was found. Still not dead, but unable to communicate...she was taken in an ambulance and pronounced dead on arrival.
It makes me FURIOUS. Positively FURIOUS, that Terri's parents drug this out and out in order to avoid the grief process. Its sick. It ceased to be about Terri's survival, and more about their fear of loss. NO ONE in this world is truly entitled to ANYTHING. Bad things happen to good people every day, and all there is to do is go on being the best that you can be.
I applaud her husbands strength, and despise her parents weakness. I feel that when those we love are gone from this earth, it is imperative that we maintain an honorable, strong path forward without them...so that we may make them proud in ALL our endevours, wherever they may be. I feel not one ounce of sympathy for those people who fear death as if it were not part of life.
Just my thoughts.[ This Message was edited by: Carmel on 2005-04-05 07:33 ]"
Applaude her husbands strenght? WHAT did he have to gain from starving her to death ? he had moved on with his life. He is the one that drug this out, all he had to do was give the parents back their right to care for their daughter. We would never smoke some low life criminal in the electric chair until all evidence was in of their guilt (well usually) or until all appeals weere exhausted. But in this case they began starving her befor all appeals were exhausted, there never was a living will only his word. All he had to do was giver her to her parents and walk away, instead he starved her. Let me keep food and water from you until you die and then you tell me how peaceful it is give me a break. Just my opinion, I am sorry for your loss as a parent I cannot begin to imagine going through that"
Technically, she began starving herself. But we wont get into that.
All I am trying to say is that up to the time of her death, it had clearly ceased to be an issue about what was right for Terri, and had become an issue of what was right for the caretakers, namely her parents and their subsequent 15 minutes of fame. Her parents were cowardly in demanding that she be on support when her condition was clearly irrevocable. In my view, what they did would be the equivalent of me allowing my daughter to stay in the same condition she was in,out there in the field, for 15 years. I find it selfish on their part to keep her hanging on, simply to shirk accountability both emotionally and "morally".
Her husband was admirable in that he maintained a respect for the idea that Terri would not wish for such a low quality of life, and he was willing to label himself a pariah for it as well as suffer the final loss. To me, THATS love. Its ridiculous to ask what he gained in "starving her to death" that isnt even the issue. Why do her parents feel they need to auction off her legacy to a bunch of bloodsucking spammers?
I never disputed that the manner of her demise wasnt cruel or painful or whatever, death seldom avoids either of these. But I will let you in on a little secret....EVERYONE dies eventually, and I am willing to bet that in the greater majority of deaths, the end is no where near so comfortable...relatively speaking.
I know this is hardly comparable...but my sister in law refuses to allow the family dog to be put to sleep. He is so very old and sick that he can hardly walk, he cries all day and night from the arthritic pain, he vomits, he has lost his hair. Euthanasia would be a welcome relief for the poor creature right now, the vet has even said so.....but she just CANT bring herself to the idea of letting go of her dog. So on he goes, living in a canine hell of pain, just so she can feel better. In the end, she doesnt really love her dog, she has only fear of the idea of loss. I find that repulsively weak. So it is with Terri's debacle.
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After her collapse, hubby become an ER nurse so he could care for her. He also had her examined by the best. No hope. He eventually gave up. Parents didn't.
Those videos you saw of her appearing to be responsive were just that. A small snipet out of hours and hours of footage. Saw a documentary on this. I think hubby made the right choice given ALL the expert opinion provided. Myself, I might have given her back to her parents, unless I felt certain that is not what she would've wanted. Until proven otherwise, that appears to be the case.
The real issue here might be that they didn't want him inheriting her trust fund, which I believe he rescinded.
Moral of the story... have a living will, or your spouse/family will be making the decisions for you and/or killing each other in the process.
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Terri Shindler-Schiavo was denied proper treatment and care while her husband held her hostage for years.
Hope Michael is happy now. Terri is dead and he and his attorney can now profit further from her state-sanctioned murder vis a vis book and movie deals.
http://www.terrisfight.org (http://www.terrisfight.org)
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On 2005-04-05 11:23:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
After her collapse, hubby become an ER nurse so he could care for her. He also had her examined by the best. No hope. He eventually gave up. Parents didn't.
Those videos you saw of her appearing to be responsive were just that. A small snipet out of hours and hours of footage. Saw a documentary on this. I think hubby made the right choice given ALL the expert opinion provided. Myself, I might have given her back to her parents, unless I felt certain that is not what she would've wanted. Until proven otherwise, that appears to be the case.
The real issue here might be that they didn't want him inheriting her trust fund, which I believe he rescinded.
Moral of the story... have a living will, or your spouse/family will be making the decisions for you and/or killing each other in the process."
Michael Schiavo never relinquished control of Terri's fate by divorcing her and/or agreeing to let her parents assume all responsibility for her care and treatment. Take a look at the trust fund expenditures. Interesting how much money he paid his lawyers from money intended for Terri's care and treatment.
And to think some people believe Michael Schiavo is a hero ...
http://www.terrisfight.org (http://www.terrisfight.org)
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On 2005-04-05 12:16:00, Anonymous wrote:
Michael Schiavo never relinquished control of Terri's fate by divorcing her and/or agreeing to let her parents assume all responsibility for her care and treatment.
Why should he? He's doing what SHE wanted.
Take a look at the trust fund expenditures. Interesting how much money he paid his lawyers from money intended for Terri's care and treatment.
You go back and take a look. Trust funds are managed or monitored by the court. Michael got approx. $300,000.00 for loss of spouse, roughly $750,000.00 went into a trust in which EVERY expenditure had to be court approved.
And to think some people believe Michael Schiavo is a hero ...
He is.
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On 2005-04-05 12:04:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Terri Shindler-Schiavo was denied proper treatment and care while her husband held her hostage for years.
Hope Michael is happy now. Terri is dead and he and his attorney can now profit further from her state-sanctioned murder vis a vis book and movie deals.
http://www.terrisfight.org (http://www.terrisfight.org)
"
Bearing this in mind....what think you of her parents selling off personal donor information for profit to spammers?
She may have been a hostage...but how many more long years hostage would she have had to endure under her parents "care".
I would also like to know, given the option of keeping her alive....how much more "peaceful" and humane do think her death would have been unassisted? See, its all about people not wanting to take responsibility. Let her rot away on her own so we dont have to feel guilty.
Why is that her parents, being the good Christians and honorable citizens they claim to be (i.e. selling private donor information off to right-to-life groups), were not able to have faith in their own beleifs that there was something better for Terri to move on to after this life? Where is their faith in salvation? Or, facing death choices, is it harder to really trust that there is any salvation? Where is their true faith? They have none...they only wanted to justify their own fear of loss. If they believed so strongly, they would feel confident that their daughters soul would go on and they would meet again. Isnt that supposed to be the very REASON for all this right-to-life bible beating crap anyway? Walk the walk, I say.
[ This Message was edited by: Carmel on 2005-04-05 13:12 ]
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On 2005-04-05 12:04:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Terri Shindler-Schiavo was denied proper treatment and care while her husband held her hostage for years.
Oh, you are so terribly misinformed. Read this. It's the guardian ad litem's report. http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/WolfsonReport.pdf (http://abstractappeal.com/schiavo/WolfsonReport.pdf)
Hope Michael is happy now.
I doubt very seriously that ANYone is happy at the moment. But I hope Michael can now rest easy that he did indeed carry out his wife's wishes instead of taking the easy way out and giving her over to her parents.
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Let?s face it, either way it is a travesty the way the whole thing played out. We will never know WHAT Terri Wanted I think it was more what her husband wanted many of her close friends contradicted what her husband claimed we will never really know. But to think that starving and dehydrating somebody until their body fails is a peaceful way to go, I don?t know about that one. Years ago if her Michael has just given her over to her parents we could have all been spared the media and political spectacle this turned out to be. The whole thing just showed the spite this man had for his in laws; in the end he didn?t seem to give a shit about Terri other than pissing off her parents. He had a new life, kids etc he could have just let the whole thing go and let her parents deal with it. It turned out to be more of a power game for him more than anything. But to call him a HERO???? paleeze
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On 2005-04-05 14:10:00, thepatriot wrote:
"Let?s face it, either way it is a travesty the way the whole thing played out. We will never know WHAT Terri Wanted I think it was more what her husband wanted many of her close friends contradicted what her husband claimed we will never really know. But to think that starving and dehydrating somebody until their body fails is a peaceful way to go, I don?t know about that one. Years ago if her Michael has just given her over to her parents we could have all been spared the media and political spectacle this turned out to be. The whole thing just showed the spite this man had for his in laws; in the end he didn?t seem to give a shit about Terri other than pissing off her parents. He had a new life, kids etc he could have just let the whole thing go and let her parents deal with it. It turned out to be more of a power game for him more than anything. But to call him a HERO???? paleeze
"
Come on! You guys act as if he went out a few weeks after this happened and knocked up some chick. Did any of you actually READ the GAL report??? He )Michael) didn't want to believe that it was hopeless. He flew her to CA for experimental treatments, refused to accept what so many DRs were telling him, gave away claim to any "left-over" monies due after her passing, etc. Do you guys understand that Michael and the Schindlers lived together for over FOUR YEARS working together to try and find her some kind of therapy that would bring at least some[/b] of "her" back??? It wasn't until after either 7 or 8 years (I can't remember off hand which) that he began proceedings to end life sustaining support. And neglect????? This woman never had a bedsore the entire time she was under his guardianship. Do you have any idea how rare that is??? He was ZEALOUS in making sure she had the best care. Overzealous in some cases. The admin. staff didn't like him b/c he was so demanding about her care.
I reviewed my LW AND a DPOA (Durable Power of Attorney & everyone really does need BOTH now) and went over details with my husband knowing that he would have more strength to carry out what MY wishes actually are than my mother. My mom knows me, but my husband most definitely knows me best!!!!!
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On 2005-04-05 14:10:00, thepatriot wrote:
But to think that starving and dehydrating somebody until their body fails is a peaceful way to go, I don?t know about that one.
You're partially right. Euthenasia would have been much more humane. But, unfortunately, that's not legal. But that's beside the point, she had NO CEREBRAL CORTEX!!!! That big black space in the center of her brain was spinal GOO. http://codeblueblog.blogs.com/.shared/i ... _terri.png (http://codeblueblog.blogs.com/.shared/image.html?/photos/uncategorized/ct_scan_terri.png) She didn't feel anything...nothing....zip, nada, zilch.
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On 2005-04-05 12:40:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-04-05 12:16:00, Anonymous wrote:
Michael Schiavo never relinquished control of Terri's fate by divorcing her and/or agreeing to let her parents assume all responsibility for her care and treatment.
Why should he? He's doing what SHE wanted.
Take a look at the trust fund expenditures. Interesting how much money he paid his lawyers from money intended for Terri's care and treatment.
You go back and take a look. Trust funds are managed or monitored by the court. Michael got approx. $300,000.00 for loss of spouse, roughly $750,000.00 went into a trust in which EVERY expenditure had to be court approved.
And to think some people believe Michael Schiavo is a hero ...
He is."
This was a court-ordered and sanctioned murder based on HEARSAY evidence only.
Michael Schiavo took the life of a defenseless woman by depriving her of food and water.
That's not a mercy killing, that's barbarism.
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All you Michael Schiavo fans should get your facts straight. This man is no hero and neither is his lawyer. The real hero is Terri who was victimized by these 2 men and their self-serving agenda.
:flame:
http://www.terrisfight.org (http://www.terrisfight.org)
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Oh, gimme a damned break already! Terri Schiavo hadn't said a word, much less fought for or against anything in 15 years. That's when she sustained irreversable, morbid brain damage.
As far as her comfort and well being is concerned, I doubt she had the capacity to care one way or the other what the lunatics outside her hospice thought or did. She's been gone for over a decades already. And I don't believe for a minute that the sanctimonious jerks who turned this whole thing into a circus ever gave a sincere thought to her wellbeing anyway. It's all about the cause, man.
The idea of God is the sole wrong for which I cannot forgive mankind.
--Marquis de Sade, French libertine
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What a bunch of hypocrites you all are!
Terri never had an MRI or PET SCAN so the full extent of her brain injury was never known.
Second, like troubled teens who do not have the right to due-process before they are shipped off to some teen hell camp ... Terri was deprived of due-process. She DID NOT have an attorney of her own!!!!!!
Think about what you are advocating when you see nothing wrong with killing a disabled human being by depriving them of food and water?
Is it okay to starve teens in these boot camps and programs? Deprive them of water? Sleep?
Why is Terri any different? Why was she killed on the word of her husband ... who didn't even remember her alleged "wishes" until 7 years after she collapsed (and after the malpractice suit was settled)?
Why did he refuse therapy to prevent the atrophy you saw in her hands? Why no dental care for 7 years? Why no fresh air?
Why did he pay his attorney nearly $400,000 out of Terri's trust fund?
Did you even bother read the information on the Terris Fight website or do you consider the "other side" of the story to be unworthy of your time and consideration?
I mean, after all, Terri is dead. Why bother educating yourselves AFTER THE FACT? Hell, she was already dead, right?
WRONG! Terri was not dead. It took 13 days to kill her.
http://www.terrisfight.org (http://www.terrisfight.org)
BTW: Tonight is Terri's memorial in Florida. Her remains have been cremated and buried in the Schiavo family plot in PA in accordance with her former husband's wishes.
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The only lunatics I saw were the KILL TERRI advocates who reminded me time and time again of just how toxic America is.
You don't kill disabled people by starving and dehydrating them to death any more than you lock up teens in places that use food, water and sleep deprivation to control or change their behavior.
Good grief ... what is happening here? Terri could not speak so she lost the right to be heard?
That's B.S. and you all know it!
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MSNBC Poll
Should TS have the right to die?
Yes 83% (I was surprised!)
No 11%
Don't know 6%
Re: euthenasia... WHY specifically is it illegal? Generally curious. I've never heard but spect it has something to do with it being a 'sin' to 'kill' or commit suicide?
If so, why the fuck do we have laws based on religious dogma? That's pretty damned arrogant when your 'god' trumps my 'god' with laws that affect me. don't ya think?
How 'free' are you when you can't decide when and how you leave the human form, legally speaking? I s'pose those who really want to go peacefully know how to get around ignorant laws.
Damn, I just thought about the ungodly number of C-sections that occur in this country. A human can't self determine when they leave or arrive. That sucks. Fucking control freaks.
And to the anon comparing TSs death to deaths in programs..... apples and oranges, apples and oranges.
I believe it has been determined, by experts and most reasonable people, that she was not DISABLED, but in fact brain dead. That is a gross misuse of the word to illicite sympathy... manipulation? Now THAT sounds like a program.
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On 2005-04-05 17:36:00, Anonymous wrote:
"What a bunch of hypocrites you all are!
Terri never had an MRI or PET SCAN so the full extent of her brain injury was never known.
Second, like troubled teens who do not have the right to due-process before they are shipped off to some teen hell camp ... Terri was deprived of due-process. She DID NOT have an attorney of her own!!!!!!
Think about what you are advocating when you see nothing wrong with killing a disabled human being by depriving them of food and water?
Is it okay to starve teens in these boot camps and programs? Deprive them of water? Sleep?
Why is Terri any different? Why was she killed on the word of her husband ... who didn't even remember her alleged "wishes" until 7 years after she collapsed (and after the malpractice suit was settled)?
Why did he refuse therapy to prevent the atrophy you saw in her hands? Why no dental care for 7 years? Why no fresh air?
Why did he pay his attorney nearly $400,000 out of Terri's trust fund?
Did you even bother read the information on the Terris Fight website or do you consider the "other side" of the story to be unworthy of your time and consideration?
I mean, after all, Terri is dead. Why bother educating yourselves AFTER THE FACT? Hell, she was already dead, right?
WRONG! Terri was not dead. It took 13 days to kill her.
http://www.terrisfight.org (http://www.terrisfight.org)
BTW: Tonight is Terri's memorial in Florida. Her remains have been cremated and buried in the Schiavo family plot in PA in accordance with her former husband's wishes.
"
I have no need of reading Terri's site to be educated about death. I am pleased that it has only taken READING about someones death to educate YOU. Count yourself blessed. Or really unblessed, dependng on your point of view.
Not to mention that it is positively ludicrous that she never received these "basic" tests to confirm her brain damage, among other extensive testing. These days doctors give MRI's for nothing more than a splinter of glass in your foot. With all the "due process" that occured during this spectacle, it is nearly unimaginable that these tests were not performed.
Being also a specialist in the workings of musculature, I can vouch for the fact that 15 years of cerebrally unassisted therapy can only go so far to prevent atrophy or even muscular depletion. The saying "free your mind, and the rest will follow" comes into play here....as well as leave your mind.
Michael Schiavo may have used the money from the trust fund to pay the lawyer because he initially refused the million bucks her parents offered him to grant custody to them. Has the fact ever occured to you that said funds going to Michaels lawyer were decidely not going to Michael himself?
I would like an elaboration on how this makes me a hypocrite based on my current and previous posting.
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On 2005-04-05 17:52:00, Anonymous wrote:
"The only lunatics I saw were the KILL TERRI advocates who reminded me time and time again of just how toxic America is.
You don't kill disabled people by starving and dehydrating them to death any more than you lock up teens in places that use food, water and sleep deprivation to control or change their behavior.
Good grief ... what is happening here? Terri could not speak so she lost the right to be heard?
That's B.S. and you all know it!
"
Who exactly, are you to determine what it is Terri may have wanted to be heard about? Would you not be confident that your decisions regarding your own spouse would be proper?
And if starving and dehydrating disabled people is the be all end all of evil, then we better get on the horn with Dubya right away and tell him right and proper about all those pesky civilians being blown to bits in Iraq, not to mention the prisoners of war being tortured and killed, yes killed, do your math.........oh but wait, THOSE people arent being HEARD either, are they. But let me guess, they dont count.
Hypocrisy is evident here in many ways.
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Terri did not die of a "dead" brain.
She died after 13 days of FOOD and WATER deprivation.
As for the poll ... all that shows is how easy it is to manipulate the "masses" vis a vis the spread of misinformation.
The fact is there were many issues in dispute regarding Terri's medical condition, the cause, the prognosis and last but not least, what she wanted or didn't want.
Had this been a "hung jury" in a death penalty case, the law would have required them to err on the side of "life" rather than pronounce a death sentence upon someone they could not be sure beyond a reasonable doubt committed the crime for which they were charged.
Terri was given no such leeway. Her life was taken solely because of a statement her husband ALLEGES she made to him, and only him.
As for the program analogy, perhaps you are unaware that every day in this country, so-called defective (troubled) teens are whisked away in the middle of the night, often in hand/leg cuffs, for no better reason than they can not (or will not) comply with the expectations and demands of their parents.
Think about it. Labels: Defiant. Troubled. Manipulative. Brain Dead.
Lock em up or kill em, all you need is a parental agreement or a cowardly judge's order to rid yourself of an unwanted teen or spouse.
:flame:
Wa
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On 2005-04-05 22:15:00, Carmel wrote:
"
On 2005-04-05 17:52:00, Anonymous wrote:
"The only lunatics I saw were the KILL TERRI advocates who reminded me time and time again of just how toxic America is.
You don't kill disabled people by starving and dehydrating them to death any more than you lock up teens in places that use food, water and sleep deprivation to control or change their behavior.
Good grief ... what is happening here? Terri could not speak so she lost the right to be heard?
That's B.S. and you all know it!
"
Who exactly, are you to determine what it is Terri may have wanted to be heard about? Would you not be confident that your decisions regarding your own spouse would be proper?
And if starving and dehydrating disabled people is the be all end all of evil, then we better get on the horn with Dubya right away and tell him right and proper about all those pesky civilians being blown to bits in Iraq, not to mention the prisoners of war being tortured and killed, yes killed, do your math.........oh but wait, THOSE people arent being HEARD either, are they. But let me guess, they dont count.
Hypocrisy is evident here in many ways.
"
What a joke! You can starve/dehydrate someone to death in America based on HEARSAY while at the same time air infomericals about how just $20 a month can help save one starving, infirm child in a third world country.
:flame:
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On 2005-04-05 15:00:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-04-05 14:10:00, thepatriot wrote:
But to think that starving and dehydrating somebody until their body fails is a peaceful way to go, I don?t know about that one.
You're partially right. Euthenasia would have been much more humane. But, unfortunately, that's not legal. But that's beside the point, she had NO CEREBRAL CORTEX!!!! That big black space in the center of her brain was spinal GOO. http://codeblueblog.blogs.com/.shared/i ... _terri.png (http://codeblueblog.blogs.com/.shared/image.html?/photos/uncategorized/ct_scan_terri.png) She didn't feel anything...nothing....zip, nada, zilch."
Ok Dr Anonymous, thanks for the education...Not
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Well Patriot, what's your 'professional' dx?
That 'opinion' was stated and reiterated in the documentary, by a couple of different medical experts.
For all we know, she may have felt a prisoner in her own body for 15 years. And if she had thoughts at all, wishing that her parents would 'let her out of prison'. Ya know. Without the 'heroics' of modern medicine she'd have passed 13 days after her collapse. Being unable to swallow goes beyond 'disabled'. What adult would choose to live that way? Unable to communicate, unable to move, unable to eat/drink, having your diapers changed. Would you folks choose to live that way? And, why?
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***What a joke! You can starve/dehydrate someone to death in America based on HEARSAY while at the same time air infomericals about how just $20 a month can help save one starving, infirm child in a third world country.
Honey, it takes a hell of lot more than $20/day to keep a brain dead person 'alive'. I imagine that you are emotional about this because you would want herorics if you were in her situation.
Best create a will. And while you're at it, better start stashing some piles of money aside... cause you too will starve and dehydrate if your family can't pay the bill to keep your physical shell functioning. Poor folk die when they can't swallow.
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On 2005-04-05 16:04:00, Anonymous wrote:
"All you Michael Schiavo fans should get your facts straight. This man is no hero and neither is his lawyer. The real hero is Terri who was victimized by these 2 men and their self-serving agenda.
:flame:
http://www.terrisfight.org (http://www.terrisfight.org)
"
And all you Right to Lifers need to get YOUR facts straight. This went all the way up and down the FL courts for over 7 years. How much more due process do you want?? Judge Greer bent over backwards to accomodate hearing every one of the Schindler's claims. He did NOT just take Michael's word that Terri would not have wanted to live that way. There were others that she told the same thing to, including one of her best friends. Did you also happen to miss in the civil courts that Terri was found to be parially responsible for her condition?
Did you even bother to read the Guardian Ad Litem's report? The Guardian Ad Litem was appointed to represent Terri and Terri alone. He gives good insight into this whole thing.
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On 2005-04-05 17:36:00, Anonymous wrote:
Terri never had an MRI or PET SCAN so the full extent of her brain injury was never known.
The CT scan was pretty telling. One of the court appointed docs said that the PET or MRI scans wouldn't have revealed anything different. She had NO CEREBRAL CORTEX!! What more do you need to know?
Second, like troubled teens who do not have the right to due-process before they are shipped off to some teen hell camp ... Terri was deprived of due-process. She DID NOT have an attorney of her own!!!!!!
No, she had a Guardian Ad Litem who was appointed by the court to represent TERRI and ONLY TERRI.
Think about what you are advocating when you see nothing wrong with killing a disabled human being by depriving them of food and water?
She wasn't disabled, she died about 15 years ago.
Is it okay to starve teens in these boot camps and programs? Deprive them of water? Sleep?
They still have a functioning cerebral cortex. They also didn't have over 7 years of court proceedings to try and determine what they would have wanted.
Why is Terri any different?
See above.
Why was she killed on the word of her husband
She wasn't. The judge heard evidence from multiple witnesses and took his time to research the angles.
Did you even bother read the information on the Terris Fight website or do you consider the "other side" of the story to be unworthy of your time and consideration?
Did you bother to go and read the GAL report?
BTW: Tonight is Terri's memorial in Florida. Her remains have been cremated and buried in the Schiavo family plot in PA in accordance with her former husband's wishes.
He was not her "former" husband. He was her husband.
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Think about it. Labels: Defiant. Troubled. Manipulative. Brain Dead.
Right...you forgot "disabled", your preferred label.
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Bottom line: Terri Schiavo was killed by a probabte judge who relied upon heresay evidence provided by Terri's legal guardian, her husband Michael Schiavo.
Gibbs was/is the Schindler family attorney, not Terri's. Terri never had a court-appointed attorney of her own.
The MRI and the PET scan would only have shed considerable more light on Terri's medical condition and both could and should have been ordered by Judge Greer.
What happened to Terri Schiavo on March 31, 2005 was not an act of mercy. It was a court-ordered killing based on woefully UNRELIABLE evidence.
Those of you who believe Terri was in a PVS (persistent vegetative state) need to consider the sworn affidavits of those who cared for Terri and ask yourselves why, in the face of such overwhelming contradictory evidence, a judge in Florida had the POWER to order the killing of a brain-injured citizen of the United States of America.
:eek:
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On 2005-04-06 09:18:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Bottom line: Terri Schiavo was killed by a probabte judge who relied upon heresay evidence provided by Terri's legal guardian, her husband Michael Schiavo.
No, that's not the bottom line, that's your opinion.
Gibbs was/is the Schindler family attorney, not Terri's. Terri never had a court-appointed attorney of her own.
Guardian Ad Litem!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The MRI and the PET scan would only have shed considerable more light on Terri's medical condition and both could and should have been ordered by Judge Greer.
No, it really wouldn't have. Once again because it obviously bears repeating.....SHE HAD NO CEREBRAL CORTEX!!!! Do you understand what that means???????
What happened to Terri Schiavo on March 31, 2005 was not an act of mercy. It was a court-ordered killing based on woefully UNRELIABLE evidence.
Again, your opinion.
Those of you who believe Terri was in a PVS (persistent vegetative state)
There is no believing or not believing it, she WAS in a PVS.
need to consider the sworn affidavits of those who cared for Terri and ask yourselves why, in the face of such overwhelming contradictory evidence, a judge in Florida had the POWER to order the killing of a brain-injured citizen of the United States of America.
"
Overwhelming evidence??? Where? Specifics please.
-
MULTIPLE CONFLICTS OF INTEREST
Greer?s list of campaign contributors show multiple conflicts of interest. Michhel Schiavo?s attorneys contributed to keep Greer on the bench and the Schiavo case as did Richard La Belle, member of the board of directors for the Advocacy Center for Persons with Disabilities, an agency statutorily charged to investigate allegations of abuse.
According to a news release issued in October, 2003, by ACPD announcing its entry into the Schiavo case, it is their federal mandate pursuant to 29 USC Section794(a) and 42 USC Secton 1504 3(a)(2)(B) as the designated Protection and Advocacy Agency for the State of Florida to investigate complaints of abuse and/or neglect against persons with disabilities.
But the ACPD investigation dead-ended, with La Belle recently quoted as saying that the group needed Michael Schiavo?s permission to examine Terri and that Schiavo had refused. La Belle said that although the agency had reviewed court files and other medical records that were available, the investigation could not go forward because the medical expert needed to examine Terri before rendering any decision if she had been mistreated.
Greer allegedly raised one of the biggest war chests ever in a judicial campaign with contributions over $144,000.
The contributors included members of the Michael Schiavo legal team, Hamden Baskin III, $500; Deborah Bushnell, $250; Felos and Felos of which lead Schiavo attorney George Felos is a principal, $250; Gynethe S. Stanley, $150 and $250; Steven Nilsson, $250 and $250.
The maximum contribution allowed by an individual is $500.
Felos is also the former chairman of the board of the Hospice of Florida Suncoast, owners and operators of the Woodside Hospice where Terri resides although not in a terminal illness?not terminal except by the judicial homicide decree of Judge Greer. Felos resigned his position after he and Michael Schiavo were successful several years ago in having her moved there. Although the recipient of over $1.5 million from medical malpractice claims including $750,000 earmarked for the rehabilitation of his wife, Michael Schiavo asked Greer to place Terri on Medicaid and Greer approved. Schiavo and his fiancé each drive Mercedes sedans and reside in an above average home with their two children.
Also contributing to keep Greer in office and on the Schiavo case were Kay Dillinger, $250, wife of Bob Dillinger, the Pinellas County public defender who allegedly violated state statutes by allowing employees of his office, assistant Paula Shea, and the prestige of the office to be used in Greer?s campaign in Greer?s political TV commercial; James Hellickson, $150, assistant state attorney from the office of Bernie McCabe, state attorney of Pasco/Pinellas Counties who has stonewalled any investigation of alleged criminal wrongdoing in the Schiavo case including the DCF investigation.
Anthony Battaglia, former chief assistant U.S. attorney, and his law firm, Battaglia, Ross, Dicus and Wien each contributed $250 to Greer?s reelection.
Battaglia has served as chairman of the Judicial Nominating Commission for Pinellas/Pasco Counties, charged with nominating judicial candidates to the governor for appointments to higher judgeships.
Kelly Crabb, a principal in the Battaglia law firm, is past chairperson of the Hospice Foundation of Florida Suncoast and Hospice board member.
For a complete list of contributors to George Greer?s 2004 campaign, see http://election.dos.state.fl.us/campfin ... b.asp#both (http://election.dos.state.fl.us/campfin/contrib.asp#both) .
-
Other potential conflicts of interest, involving the hospice are summarized here. Try Googling some of these names and see where it leads you:
Judge George Greer
Judge John Lenderman
Martha Lenderman
Barbara Sheen Todd
George Felos
Mary Laybak
Euthanasia Society of America
Hemlock for Hospice
Attorney Jonathan Alpert
Gus Michael Bilirakis
-
On 2005-04-06 09:56:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Other potential conflicts of interest, involving the hospice are summarized here. Try Googling some of these names and see where it leads you:
Judge George Greer
Judge John Lenderman
Martha Lenderman
Barbara Sheen Todd
George Felos
Mary Laybak
Euthanasia Society of America
Hemlock for Hospice
Attorney Jonathan Alpert
Gus Michael Bilirakis
"
It ain't gonna fly with me. I know and work with quite a few of them.
-
On 2005-04-06 10:00:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-04-06 09:56:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Other potential conflicts of interest, involving the hospice are summarized here. Try Googling some of these names and see where it leads you:
Judge George Greer
Judge John Lenderman
Martha Lenderman
Barbara Sheen Todd
George Felos
Mary Laybak
Euthanasia Society of America
Hemlock for Hospice
Attorney Jonathan Alpert
Gus Michael Bilirakis
"
It ain't gonna fly with me. I know and work with quite a few of them. "
Whoops ... so sorry if I touched a nerve regarding your own "conflict of interest" Anon.
:scared:
-
You didn't touch any nerve sweetheart. I've worked with these people, I know them...not well, I'm just a lowly servant :lol: . I know of their politics, how they've ruled on or tried particular cases etc. They're not friends of mine by any sense of the word. The only reason I said that was that you're trying to educate me on the politics of Pinellas County and I'm well versed in them.
-
On 2005-04-06 10:48:00, Anonymous wrote:
"You didn't touch any nerve sweetheart. I've worked with these people, I know them...not well, I'm just a lowly servant :scared:
-
Some food for thought ...
Excerpt:
"L. Ron Hubbard's "we would rather have you dead than incapable" remark was in reference to those enslaved in Scientology, but its relevance to the drama in Clearwater Florida is evident. Indeed, Hubbard's death philosophy was echoed by the 2nd District Appeals judges who indicated that Terri Schiavo has only two choices: A miracle or death!
See: Disability is not an Option in the New World Order.
Scientology and Death
Scientologists do not view death in the same manner as the general population:
Of course death is not a big deal for Scientologists. It is called "dropping the body" and the body is regarded as a hindrance and a distraction.
Scientology founder, L. Ron Hubbard, believed that when a man dies it simply means that his thetan (spirit) separates from his body. The thetan then "picks up another body" and lives again. L. Ron Hubbard's belief in reincarnation?which George Felos shares?is the foundation for his frightening doctrines about death and the disabled.
Scientologists believe that it is only through Scientology that the mechanics of death have been thoroughly understood. L. Ron Hubbard boasted about Scientology's supposed superior knowledge of death:
"We are actually the first people that do know a great deal about death. It is one of the larger successes of Scientology."
The online book, The Phenomena of Death, reveals that L. Ron Hubbard believed that death, which he called "losing your body," was on the same level of importance as losing your pocketbook!
In the book, History of Man, Hubbard wrote,
"The possession of a ... body is a liability for through that body the being can be given pain, can be regimented by the routine demands of eating and care from harm ... Today we live in a vast cult called Worship the body. Medical doctors, school teachers, parents, traffic officers, the whole society unites into this war-cry, Care for the body." (Chapter 4) 6
Do Scientologists, who favor death rather than disability, play a significant role in the Terri Schiavo case? I believe the answer is "Yes." Clearwater Florida, especially downtown Clearwater, is Scientology's worldwide spiritual headquarters and main training ground. The Flag Service Organization, located in Clearwater, provides the highest level of Scientology training and is the largest single Scientology "church" in the world! Scientology brochures claim that Clearwater Florida has the "largest community of Scientologists in the world." Back in 1998, the "church" of Scientology generated from 1.5 to 2 million dollars of income per week! This material success enables them to maintain ownership of tens of millions of dollars worth of property (about 40 buildings) as well as many businesses:
To date, the church owns more than $50-million in Clearwater-area properties and is nearing completion of a $50-million Mediterranean Revival-style building nicknamed "Super Power." Additionally, the church now has 565 hotel rooms in and near downtown for visiting Scientologists who consider Clearwater their spiritual mecca."
http://libertytothecaptives.net/sciento ... ction.html (http://libertytothecaptives.net/scientology_and_terri_schindler_schiavo_death_connection.html)
And the beat goes on .....
:eek:
-
Unfortunately, the more I look into Judge Greer, Felos, the Scientology connection in Clearwater and other factors which may or may not have played a role in the court-ordered removal of Terri's feeding tubes, the more convinced I am that Terri was the victim of a corrupt, morally bankrupt system of justice.
Of course she was, thank goodness her husband stuck it out and maintained his strength for her so that she could be be freed from corrupt justice and moral bankruptcy!
What exactly would have been different had Terri been in possession of her own lawyer? Would she have given him new and breaking information not previously considered? You keep on demanding that the forms be followed when there is nothing to follow them with.
The moral majority were literally kicking a dead horse. Stand up and be healed Terri! That way no one has to be accountable or feel pain or loss or have to make hurtful decisions in which we have no faith.
Im sorry Anon, but you just keep spouting the same thing over and over and over....she was MURDERED, KILLED, and so on. Why are you so afraid of truly probing the larger implications of the situation? In all your righteousness, do you not beleive that Terri is in a better place were she belongs? If you are going to pontificate, I am going to hold you to your beliefs. Ditch your pitchforking, torch burning fear for a moment and answer the questions.
-
On 2005-04-06 12:22:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Some food for thought ...
Excerpt:
"L. Ron Hubbard's "we would rather have you dead than incapable" remark was in reference to those enslaved in Scientology, but its relevance to the drama in Clearwater Florida is evident. Indeed, Hubbard's death philosophy was echoed by the 2nd District Appeals judges who indicated that Terri Schiavo has only two choices: A miracle or death!
See: Disability is not an Option in the New World Order.
Scientology and Death
Scientologists do not view death in the same manner as the general population:
Of course death is not a big deal for Scientologists. It is called "dropping the body" and the body is regarded as a hindrance and a distraction.
Scientology founder, L. Ron Hubbard, believed that when a man dies it simply means that his thetan (spirit) separates from his body. The thetan then "picks up another body" and lives again. L. Ron Hubbard's belief in reincarnation?which George Felos shares?is the foundation for his frightening doctrines about death and the disabled.
Scientologists believe that it is only through Scientology that the mechanics of death have been thoroughly understood. L. Ron Hubbard boasted about Scientology's supposed superior knowledge of death:
"We are actually the first people that do know a great deal about death. It is one of the larger successes of Scientology."
The online book, The Phenomena of Death, reveals that L. Ron Hubbard believed that death, which he called "losing your body," was on the same level of importance as losing your pocketbook!
In the book, History of Man, Hubbard wrote,
"The possession of a ... body is a liability for through that body the being can be given pain, can be regimented by the routine demands of eating and care from harm ... Today we live in a vast cult called Worship the body. Medical doctors, school teachers, parents, traffic officers, the whole society unites into this war-cry, Care for the body." (Chapter 4) 6
Do Scientologists, who favor death rather than disability, play a significant role in the Terri Schiavo case? I believe the answer is "Yes." Clearwater Florida, especially downtown Clearwater, is Scientology's worldwide spiritual headquarters and main training ground. The Flag Service Organization, located in Clearwater, provides the highest level of Scientology training and is the largest single Scientology "church" in the world! Scientology brochures claim that Clearwater Florida has the "largest community of Scientologists in the world." Back in 1998, the "church" of Scientology generated from 1.5 to 2 million dollars of income per week! This material success enables them to maintain ownership of tens of millions of dollars worth of property (about 40 buildings) as well as many businesses:
To date, the church owns more than $50-million in Clearwater-area properties and is nearing completion of a $50-million Mediterranean Revival-style building nicknamed "Super Power." Additionally, the church now has 565 hotel rooms in and near downtown for visiting Scientologists who consider Clearwater their spiritual mecca."
http://libertytothecaptives.net/sciento ... ction.html (http://libertytothecaptives.net/scientology_and_terri_schindler_schiavo_death_connection.html)
And the beat goes on .....
:eek:
FYI:
Terri was confined in Park Place, an assisted living facility located on Drew Street, in downtown Clearwater, Florida.
Not sure when she was moved to the other hospice where she ultimately died.
-
Second, my views and opinions have nothing to do with my religious/spiritual beliefs.
Do you concede then, that you maintain two separate sets of moral standards? One that agrees with your spirituality and one that,lets say....agrees with Prime Time reality TV?
Do you maintain that your spiritual beliefs are never reflected in your opinions of morality and death? Talk about scary.
May I ask if you even have spiritual beliefs? Seems to me that if what you say above is truly the case....then your view of morality is strictly self serving and unfit to judge the choices of others.
People spend their whole lives trying to please and placate a God they wont trust when it comes down to the wire.
-
My, my, my. The conspiracy theorists are working overtime now, aren't they?
-
On 2005-04-06 12:33:00, Carmel wrote:
"
Unfortunately, the more I look into Judge Greer, Felos, the Scientology connection in Clearwater and other factors which may or may not have played a role in the court-ordered removal of Terri's feeding tubes, the more convinced I am that Terri was the victim of a corrupt, morally bankrupt system of justice.
Of course she was, thank goodness her husband stuck it out and maintained his strength for her so that she could be be freed from corrupt justice and moral bankruptcy!
What exactly would have been different had Terri been in possession of her own lawyer? Would she have given him new and breaking information not previously considered? You keep on demanding that the forms be followed when there is nothing to follow them with.
The moral majority were literally kicking a dead horse. Stand up and be healed Terri! That way no one has to be accountable or feel pain or loss or have to make hurtful decisions in which we have no faith.
Im sorry Anon, but you just keep spouting the same thing over and over and over....she was MURDERED, KILLED, and so on. Why are you so afraid of truly probing the larger implications of the situation? In all your righteousness, do you not beleive that Terri is in a better place were she belongs? If you are going to pontificate, I am going to hold you to your beliefs. Ditch your pitchforking, torch burning fear for a moment and answer the questions. "
Sorry Carmel, but I am not afraid of "probing" anything. In fact, that's exactly what I'm doing and why I have come to the conclusion that
Terri Schindler-Schiavo was unjustly sentenced to death.
As for your belief that Terri is in a "better place" where she "belongs", I simply do not understand that kind of logic because in my mind, the ends to not justify the means.
Clear enough?
:smokin:
-
On 2005-04-06 12:46:00, Anonymous wrote:
"My, my, my. The conspiracy theorists are working overtime now, aren't they?"
No conspiracy ... Terri was freed from her worthless body by the death squad.
Justice was served.
-
On 2005-04-06 12:45:00, Carmel wrote:
"
Second, my views and opinions have nothing to do with my religious/spiritual beliefs.
Do you concede then, that you maintain two separate sets of moral standards? One that agrees with your spirituality and one that,lets say....agrees with Prime Time reality TV?
Do you maintain that your spiritual beliefs are never reflected in your opinions of morality and death? Talk about scary.
May I ask if you even have spiritual beliefs? Seems to me that if what you say above is truly the case....then your view of morality is strictly self serving and unfit to judge the choices of others.
People spend their whole lives trying to please and placate a God they wont trust when it comes down to the wire.
"
Oh please ... Terri was starved and dehydrated to death by order of a judge who, as it turns out, never even visited the person he executed. Guess he was too busy with his re-election campaign and or pleasing his constituents in good ole' Pinellas County, Florida.
:roll:
-
Ok, I've changed my opinion on this issue from generally favorable to Michael Schiavo to no friggen clue.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... m=32#91264 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=8791&forum=32#91264)
Will Attorney DAVID GIBBS III of the CHRISTIAN LAW ASSOCIATION be saying the same things at the MOUNTAIN PARK BAPTIST CHURCH & BOARDING ACADEMY TRIAL as he is saying in the TERRI SCHIAVO case?
Clams on one side, fundies on the other. Somewhere far removed from all of this may lie the truth, but you're not going to get it out of either side.
I certainly hope it's not true that this woman was aware of anything these last 15 years. But, either way, I guess I'm glad for her that it's over.
All religions have been made by men.
--Napoleon Bonaparte, French emperor
-
On 2005-04-06 12:55:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-04-06 12:46:00, Anonymous wrote:
"My, my, my. The conspiracy theorists are working overtime now, aren't they?"
No conspiracy ... Terri was freed from her worthless body by the death squad.
Justice was served. "
Hospice of the Florida Suncoast Board Members
Barbara Sheen Todd
County Commissioner
Pinellas Co. Board of Commissioners
both Judge Greer (of the Terri Schiavo
case) and Sheen Todd were county commissioners simultaneously for eight years
http://www.apfn.org/apfn/Terri_barbara.htm (http://www.apfn.org/apfn/Terri_barbara.htm)
Martha Lenderman (Chair)
(Sister of Judge John Lenderman ... bench buddy to Judge Greer in the Terri Schiavo case who always rules in favor of the hospice efforts to end Terri Schiavo's life)
http://www.apfn.org/apfn/Terri_martha.htm (http://www.apfn.org/apfn/Terri_martha.htm)
-
On 2005-04-06 13:11:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-04-06 12:55:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-04-06 12:46:00, Anonymous wrote:
"My, my, my. The conspiracy theorists are working overtime now, aren't they?"
No conspiracy ... Terri was freed from her worthless body by the death squad.
Justice was served. "
Hospice of the Florida Suncoast Board Members
Barbara Sheen Todd
County Commissioner
Pinellas Co. Board of Commissioners
both Judge Greer (of the Terri Schiavo
case) and Sheen Todd were county commissioners simultaneously for eight years
http://www.apfn.org/apfn/Terri_barbara.htm (http://www.apfn.org/apfn/Terri_barbara.htm)
Martha Lenderman (Chair)
(Sister of Judge John Lenderman ... bench buddy to Judge Greer in the Terri Schiavo case who always rules in favor of the hospice efforts to end Terri Schiavo's life)
http://www.apfn.org/apfn/Terri_martha.htm (http://www.apfn.org/apfn/Terri_martha.htm)
"
Check this out!
http://web.archive.org/web/200306201219 ... tions.html (http://web.archive.org/web/20030620121913/http:/www.hospicepatients.org/is-the-hospice-A-faithful-Steward-of-Donations.html)
-
Question. Do you have a problem with Hospice? Not trying to start anything, just genuinely curious.
-
On 2005-04-06 13:28:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Question. Do you have a problem with Hospice? Not trying to start anything, just genuinely curious."
No, I don't personally have a problem with Hospice. Just trying to figure out who's who and what's what from as many different sources as possible.
-
Maybe worthless to your standards, but not her parents. Some believe all life is valuable. Just because Terry went on to a better place does not give anyone the right to kill her. Since she was not able to consent to this it's plain wrong what happened to her.
-
On 2005-04-06 14:31:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Maybe worthless to your standards, but not her parents. Some believe all life is valuable. Just because Terry went on to a better place does not give anyone the right to kill her. Since she was not able to consent to this it's plain wrong what happened to her."
In your opinion its wrong. Judge Greer, IMO, struggled with this. He's a deeply religious man adn very conservative. I believe that this goes against his PERSONAL beliefs, but he had to follow the law. That's my opinion, obviously, but I really do believe that. This wasn't a case that took a year to decide. Its been in the FL courts for over 7 years. Contrary to what you appear to believe, he did NOT just take Michael's word that she wouldn't have wanted to live this way. He heard evidence from many sources, one of which was a close friend of Terri's.
Judge Greer, incidently, has been thrown out of his church from what I understand, not to mention the death threats.
-
As for your belief that Terri is in a "better place" where she "belongs", I simply do not understand that kind of logic because in my mind, the ends to not justify the means.
This isnt MY belief necessarily, Anon. However, it seems to me that the majority of those opposed to how this was handled WOULD and DO profess to this beleif given their affiliations. I am simply asking how it is they can have one without the other.
-
On 2005-04-06 13:06:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-04-06 12:45:00, Carmel wrote:
"
Second, my views and opinions have nothing to do with my religious/spiritual beliefs.
Do you concede then, that you maintain two separate sets of moral standards? One that agrees with your spirituality and one that,lets say....agrees with Prime Time reality TV?
Do you maintain that your spiritual beliefs are never reflected in your opinions of morality and death? Talk about scary.
May I ask if you even have spiritual beliefs? Seems to me that if what you say above is truly the case....then your view of morality is strictly self serving and unfit to judge the choices of others.
People spend their whole lives trying to please and placate a God they wont trust when it comes down to the wire.
"
Oh please ... Terri was starved and dehydrated to death by order of a judge who, as it turns out, never even visited the person he executed. Guess he was too busy with his re-election campaign and or pleasing his constituents in good ole' Pinellas County, Florida.
:roll: "
I just cant see how it is that if this woman was completely incapable of having any thoughts, feelings or the like that would be acceptable to you, such as love, happiness, pleasure.....how is it that it is so adamantly abhorrent the means of her death? Starvation? Dehydration? Do you think she was capable of feeling these sensations any more or less than normal everday sensations, simply because YOU find them distasteful?
May I ask what you would have wanted for yourself given the same circumstances? Would you want to be left hanging on indefinately? Be honest!
And PS - you really did completely avoid my questions in favor of the pitchforking again.
_________________
"...hands went up and people hit the floor, he wasted two kids that ran for the door....."
-Beastie Boys, Paul Revere[ This Message was edited by: Carmel on 2005-04-06 15:08 ]
-
Did you bother to read the GAL's report? I went to "Terri's fight". Now try reading a fairly objective opinion. Remember, the GAL was appointed to represent TERRI.
-
March 30, 2005
The Web of Lies
Or
How The Courts Killed Terri and Why She May Not* Get An Honest Autopsy
Look this chart over carefully (sources below). You will find that at the hub of connections in the Schaivo Case are George Felos, Judge Greer and the Woodside Hospice, operated by The Hospice of the Florida Suncoast.
Update: For those making amusing but intellectually lazy allusions to aliens and illuminati in regards to this chart, let me sum up the premise of this chart. I'll use as small words as possible for those of you apparently more familiar with crack than I:
Key players in the case have connections
The connections are in the public record
The connections should recuse players from case
That's it... no tinfoil hats, all-seeing eyes, or transporter coordinates required.
UPDATE: Futher clarification on my "position" here.
Plain enough? Now, on to the sources:
The Judge
From Hyscience:
Judges are impartial, right? Not Judge George Greer, the judge that has ordered Terri Schiavo executed by starvation and dehydration, twice.
Our good ole boy judge has worked side by side as county commissioner with Barbara Sheen Todd (county commissioner) for eight years. Barbara Sheen Todd is on the board of, you guessed it, the hospice where Terri Schiavo is kept prisoner by her husband, Michael Schiavo, who lives with another woman that he has two children with.
Also, Judge Greer's fellow judge, Judge John Lenderman is the brother of Martha Lenderman, also on the, you got it, the same hospice board.
Campaign contributions:
Greer allegedly raised one of the biggest war chests ever in a judicial campaign with contributions over $144,000.
The contributors included members of the Michael Schiavo legal team, Hamden Baskin III, $500; Deborah Bushnell, $250; Felos and Felos of which lead Schiavo attorney George Felos is a principal, $250; Gynethe S. Stanley, $150 and $250; Steven Nilsson, $250 and $250.
The maximum contribution allowed by an individual is $500.
. . .
For a complete list of contributors to George Greer?s 2004 campaign, see http://election.dos.state.fl.us/campfin ... b.asp#both (http://election.dos.state.fl.us/campfin/contrib.asp#both).
The table of Greer campaign contributors at the bottom of this page includes Everett Rice, and Gus [Michael] Bilirakis.
A bio of Greer touching on his involvement in other controversial issues can be found here.
The Feeding Tube As Life Support
Congressman and hospice board member Gus Michael Bilirakis* is co-sponsor of the 1999 Florida house bill 2131, adding a feeding tube in the legal definition of a life-prolonging method.
Consider this time-line:
May 1997 - Deborah Bushnell send a letter to Judge Shames (he was before Judge Greer) saying that the Schindlers should be involved in Terri's care during her final days (since Michael intends to move Terri to hospice and remove her feeding tube).
Aug. 1997 - Felos sends a letter to the Schindler's notifying them of pending action to remove Terri's feeding tube.
May 1998 - George Felos is hired and files a petition in Court to remove Terri's feeding tube.
April 6, 1999 - House Bill 2131 was introduced in the legislature by the Florida Elder Affairs & Long-Term Care Committee to amend Section 765 (Civil Rights) of the Florida Statutes. two weeks later, the legislature Committee on Judiciary recommended that House Bill 2131 should also change the Section 765.101 legal definition of life prolonging procedures to add: "INCLUDING ARTIFICIALLY PROVIDED SUSTENANCE AND HYDRATION, WHICH SUSTAINS, RESTORES, OR SUPPLANTS A SPONTANEOUS VITAL FUNCTION".
Oct 1, 1999 - Senate Bill 2228 (formerly HB2131) becomes law changing Section 765.101 of the Florida Statutes to include the above.
Jan 24, 2000 - Trial begins to decided whether to remove Terri's feeding tube.
Feb 11, 2000 - Judge Greer orders that Terri's feeding tube can be removed.
If you followed the time-line, Felos filed a petition to remove Terri's feeding tube BEFORE the law was changed, and the trial began AFTER the law was changed (and Greer approved removal of the tube). Why is that?
The Sheriff & County offices
Collusion:
Four days before joining Florida's House of Representatives in November, 2004, Everett Rice left the office of Pinellas County Sheriff, a position he had held since 1988 and after 33 years in the sheriff's department.
But before he left office he hired Michael Schiavo, estranged husband and guardian of Terri Schiavo.
The Empire Journal has learned that days before leaving office as Pinellas County sheriff, Rice hired Schiavo, a registered nurse, to work in the Inmates Medical Care Division of the Pinellas County Jail.
The relationship of Rice and Schiavo raises grave questions of alleged impropriety in the Terri Schiavo case and ongoing allegations of conspiracy, collusion and cover-up which have resulted in calls for Gov. Jeb Bush to appoint a special prosecutor to investigate the matter and the impaneling of Grand Jury.
Rice's hire of Schiavo came at the same time contentious guardianship proceedings were proceeding in the courtroom of his long-time friend, Sixth Circuit Court Judge George W. Greer where Schiavo was seeking to end the life of his wife by court order of Greer.
And after Rice had repeatedly refused to investigate allegations of abuse against Schiavo.
According to informed sources, neither Schiavo nor his attorney, George Felos, disclosed to the court or attorneys for Terri's parents, Mary and Robert Schindler Sr., of Schiavo's change in employment, particularly in light of the disclosure Feb. 23 that the state's Department of Children and Families [DCF] has opened an investigation into some 30 allegations of abuse, neglect and exploitation of Terri Schiavo.
According to pleadings filed before Greer by DCF attorneys, Michael Schiavo is the suspected abuser.
The Empire Journal has also confirmed that [Eleanor Centonze*] the mother of Jodi Centonze, Schiavo's live-in girlfriend and fiancé with whom he has two children was employed in the civil division of the sheriff's department from June 18, 1979 until June 25, 1999, some 11 years while Rice was sheriff and at the same time her son-in-law had petitioned Rice's good friend Judge Greer to end her daughter-in-law's life.
[NOTE - JP: Michael Schiavo refers to Jodi Centonze as his 'wife'. The term 'son-in-law' refers to Michael Schiavo. The woman is Jodi Centonze's mother, Michael's 'other' mother-in-law.]
Rice's employment of Michael Schiavo came just weeks after Rice had allegedly unlawfully lent the prestige of his office and the resources of the sheriff's office in endorsement of the reelection of Greer in a televised political advertisement.
Although prohibited by Florida Statutes, Rice and other Pinellas county public officers including state attorney Bernie McCabe public defender Bob Dillinger, allowed employees of their offices to appear in a campaign commercial for Greer which inferred that Greer was "tough on crime" although Greer is an administrative probate judge.
http://www.theempirejournal.com/0223059 ... commer.htm (http://www.theempirejournal.com/02230590_schiavo_judge_tv_commer.htm)
According to a sheriff's employee, Sheriff Rice had authorized the use of the county-owned sheriff's car and the appearance of the uniformed deputy in Greer's TV commercial. State law prohibits the same.
In 2003, Rice became the center of controversy in the Terri Schiavo case when Patricia Anderson, then attorney for the Schindlers, filed a motion asking Greer to recuse himself for alleged violations of judicial canons and bias.
Greer has controlled the Schiavo case since 1998.
In her affidavit, Anderson said that Rice had told her that he and Greer had discussed the Schiavo case at a ball game the night previous with Rice without other parties to the matter being present. Greer refused to recuse himself and Rice later denied that he had made the comments to Anderson.
. . .
Rice, as well as McCabe, has been directly involved in the Schiavo case, steadfastly denying requests to conduct alleged criminal investigations of criminal wrongdoing in the matter by Michael Schiavo.
Rice and Schiavo's attorney, George Felos, have also served on the board of directors of the Hospice of Florida Suncoast, the corporation which operates the Woodside Hospice in Pinellas Park where Terri Schiavo is in residence.
Felos failed to disclose his affiliation with the Hospice at the time in April, 2000 when he and Michael Schiavo moved Terri to the Hospice. However, it has since been learned by The Empire Journal that the proper certification for Terri's admittance to the Hospice was never completed and that she was not legally designated as terminal, a requirement to be admitted to a hospice and for her care to be paid for by Medicare.
The federal government has initiated collection procedures against the Hospice of Florida Suncoast to recover some $14.8 million which they say was unlawfully paid to the hospice as a result of fraudulent claims made for Medicare reimbursement for patients that were not terminally ill and therefore not eligible for hospice care, allegedly at a time when both Rice and Felos were members of the Hospice board of directors.
Insurance Connection?
Richard M. Jerger, Jr is a holder in the Philadelphia Consolidated Holding Corp. which bought out The Jerger Co, which insured mobile homes.
Raymond Blacklidge is a registered lobbyist in the Florida Legislature, who worked for the Jerger Company. Blacklidge, Business Partner to Richard Jerger, was an Insurance Executive selling mobile home insurance in the state of Florida. Jerger somehow became the Business Partner to Michael Schiavo:
http://www.sunbiz.org/corpweb/inquiry/corinam.html (http://www.sunbiz.org/corpweb/inquiry/corinam.html), searching for "Jerger" returns THE JERGER COMPANY, INC. and JERGER & CENTONZE INSURNACE AGENCY, INC. (sic) Both are connected to Richard Jerger. Jerger & Centonze Insurance, Inc. is listed under Jodi's address. Jodi Centonze is Michael Schiavo's "domestic partner" and now mother of his 2 children.
Myopic Zeal:
Senator Jim King, originally upheld the passage of ?Terri?s Law.? (S 12 E)
Board member of Woodside Hospice
Received campaign contributions from Richard M. Jerger, Jr., of Jerger & Centonze Insurance. (Mr. Jerger lived in a different district).
Called his support of Terri?s Law ?The Terri Schiavo vote that I made was probably one of the worst votes that I?ve ever done?
. . .
Note: Richard M. Jerger, Jr., stockholder in Philadelphia Consolidated Holding Corp, sold 2902 shares of stock in July,2001 for $102,933? put this in the ?for what it?s worth? department.
Philadelphia Consolidated Holding Corp.
http://www.phly.com (http://www.phly.com)
Designer insurance is all the rage these days, and Philadelphia Consolidated Holding grows its business by stitching together innovative policies. The company and its subsidiaries specialize in designing and underwriting commercial property & casualty insurance for niche clients such as rental car companies (including the insurance they always want to sell you at the counter), not-for-profits , health and fitness centers, and day-care facilities. Specialty lines cover such professionals as lawyers, accountants, and insurance agents. The company also sells mobile homeowners policies, mainly in Florida.
UNVERIFIED SPECULATION: Is there an insurance policy connection between Jerger/Schiavo and The Hospice of the Florida Suncoast via Philadelphia Consolidated Holding? Could the Holding Corp. be covering the not-for-profit hospice and it's directors from liability? I don't know how one would get an answer to that. But if so, what would be the implications?
Note: Put down the tinfoil hats-- I'm clearly NOT making accusations here, just asking questions...
The Hospice
Hyscience:
Mary Laybak, CEO of Woodside Hospice has direct ties to Euthanasia Society of America and Hemlock for Hospice, an organization that seeks to accelerate the dying process. Federal funds may not be used for these purposes.
The Hospice is a federally funded program designed for terminally ill and those whose death is eminent. Terri has been in Woodside Hospice illegally for three years under Medicaid payments, for free, courtesy of, yep, George Felos. Felos combined and conspired with Michael Schiavo to arrange for Terri's "free" stay at Hospice Woodside as part of an "exit protocol" designed to advance Felos' self-perceived messianic mission of "helping" incapacitated people to die by categorizing them as "terminal," warehousing them, and depriving them of therapy and rehabilitation services.
US Dept of Health and Human Services is currently trying to collect $14.8 million from Florida Suncoast Hospice, owed to them since 1997. The squeaki-clean(not) Hospice is accused of patient brokering and several lawsuits filed by Attorney Jonathan Alpert are pending.
(More on Mary and The Hospice of the Florida Suncoast can be found here.)
http://www.cst-phl.com/050224/seventh.html (http://www.cst-phl.com/050224/seventh.html):
"The CEO of Woodside Hospice, Mary Labyak, is a board member of Partnership for Caring, a direct offshoot of the Euthanasia Society of America."
The Autopsy
Florida Medical Examiner Commission search committee "made up of local law enforcement, prosecutors, the public defender and county officials" including Pinellas-Pasco State Attorney Bernie McCabe, chairman of the committee & Bob Dillinger, Public Defender selects Dr. Jon Thogmartin, Pinellas County Chief medical examiner, who will conduct Terri's autopsy.
Thogmartin said Pinellas offered a probable pay increase from his current $125,000. [Outgoing Medical Examiner] Wood earns $145,000.
Thogmartin acknowledged that Palm Beach officials offered him a $10,000 pay raise to drop out of the running.
"But I didn't pull my name out," he said.
So Thogmartin, essentially hired (pending Gov. Bush approval) by the committee headed by Rice & Greer friend McCabe, for a likely salary of $145,000 which, if true, would be a $20,000/yr raise. I'm sure there's no loyalty there...
Judge Greer and Robert Wharrie (hospice board) share the Clearwater Bar Association's (CBA) Probate Panel (almost at the bottom of the page.) Thogmartin is acquainted with the CBA, even being asked to speak to them:
CBA to Examine Jon R. Thogmartin, M.D. at July 26, 2001 Membership Luncheon
Scheduled speaker for the July 26 membership luncheon at the Harborview Center is Jon R. Thogmartin, M.D., District Medical Examiner for District 6, Pinellas and Pasco Counties, since December 2000.
And he'll be impartial?
Update: Bringing other players into the autopsy scene is a positive (and smart) move. An independent autopsy in another location would be better, but what can ya do? I haven't done any research on Dr. Pellan, nor is the neuropathology expert named. These sound like positive developments. I'm sure they're aware the whole world will be scrutinizing the results.
My conclusion: If Terri were on trial for a capital crime with a possible death sentence at stake, all of these authority figures would be deemed as having a significant conflict of interest in the outcome and be removed from the case.
Why are Terri's rights being given less consideration than that of a death row criminal?
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*Update: Looks like I'm not the only one looking at these characters. I see from the Myopic Zeal cast listing, that I've got some corrections to make to my chart. I'll do so as soon as I have time. Update: Minor corrections made to chart (name corrections). Added new data to chart and listed sources per Myopic Zeal's cast of characters. Update: In the interest of fairness, changed subtitle in light of possibly positive autopsy news & updated Autopsy section.
Welcome BlogsForTerri readers.
Update: References to Scientology have been frequent in comments, given that Clearwater, Pinellas County is the headquarters of the sect. When I first posted, I was not aware of this, nor had I come across evidence indicating a Scientology involvement. I've taken time since then to research it.
While there is a similarity in the cause of death (starvation) behind Terri's death and another woman, Lisa McPherson; the circumstances and the key players involved in the Schiavo case are different. In the McPherson case, it was a woman dying in a Scientology-owned facility with State Attorney Bernie McCabe filing felony charges against the church. In the Schiavo case, McCabe has refused to investigate possible criminal wrongdoing in a case heard by his friend Judge Greer. I have seen no evidence in the public record that the church, its members or its ideology is involved. Searching the St. Petersburg Times (the local paper) for "Scientology" brings plenty of articles in which McCabe and the Sheriff's office are on the opposing side of issues involving Scientology, and it seems unlikely that the county government would make a quick reversal in attitude to join with Scientologists to euthanize Terri. I think Mary Labyak's & George Felos' Hemlock Society tendencies give enough of a euthanistic inclination alone, regardless of the views Scientology may have on the topic.
If it can be shown based on public record that any of the key players have ties to Scientology, I'll report it. However, I was unable to find any, and unless/until that happens, I want to re-emphasize the purpose of this post: To bring attention to the connections in the Schiavo case available in the public record which should have been grounds to remove the majority of the key county officials from the case due to conflict of interest. This post is not intended to promote theories on Scientology, because I have found no evidence which supports those theories.
http://titleofliberty.typepad.com/ttol/ ... _lies.html (http://titleofliberty.typepad.com/ttol/2005/03/the_web_of_lies.html)
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Yep, I have read the GAL's report and my opinion remains the same: Terri Schindler-Schiavo was not the property of her husband, Michael Schiavo. She was a brain-damaged human being who was forcibly starved and dehydrated to death not because she wanted to be (that was never definitly proven) but rather because SHE COULD BE.
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Well of course she wasn't his property. Florida courts recognize the spouse as next of kin over other family. That's the way it is.
So, what did you think of the GAL's observations and impressions of Michael Schiavo and his stewardship of Terri's care?
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***To bring attention to the connections in the Schiavo case available in the public record which should have been grounds to remove the majority of the key county officials from the case due to conflict of interest.
And replace them with WHO??? A group of christian right-to-lifers?
I don't condone any unlawful activity, such as TAKING 14.8 MILLION OF OUR TAX DOLLARS TO KEEP THIS WOMAN ALIVE... but sounds to me like Shiavo found some folks in the political arean who shared his views on right-to-die. When you have unreasonable and irrational laws, people will find a way around them. And that, ultimately, is not morally wrong, inho.
Again, right-to-lifer, back to a question that none of you answered.... would you want to live in that condition? Who would you like to change your diapers everyday. Mommy? Daddy? Hubby? Your children, if you have any? And, WHY?
What miracle would you see on the horizon, for yourself in that condition?
Better write those wills and hope that the entire family honors your wishes. Wills can be contested.
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Oh please ... Terri was starved and dehydrated to death by order of a judge who, as it turns out, never even visited the person he executed. Guess he was too busy with his re-election campaign and or pleasing his constituents in good ole' Pinellas County, Florida.
:roll: "
[/quote]
GET A GRIP. Do you know that this woman had no ability to swallow - all of her brain function was gone. All that remained were invoulntary muscle movements. Therefore SHE NEVER COULD HAVE CONTINUED TO LIVE EXCEPT FOR MEDICAL INTERVENTION.
And yes, I watched all of those 30 second films on the Terri's fight site. How come the other hours of tape documenting the PVS aren't up there, too. It's all agenda oriented.
The crime wasn't removing the tube. The crime was putting it in the first place. If left on her own, this poor woman never would have lived. It was cruel and unusual punishment to to keep her body alive.
For a fresh and realistic perspective - check out the latest South Park episode dealing with God, the Devil, good and evil, death, life, feeding tubes, and courts.
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Sigh ... Terri's death was never a pro-life issue for me but rather a constitutional one.
Perhaps in time we will see a sea-change in the way our courts trample over the constitutional rights of persons who find themselves at the mercy of activists dressed in black robes.
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Does anyone think it's hypocritical that people are sending death threats to her husband?
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Eric Rudolph had helpful fans after he hit a few abortion clinics? Any more hypocritical than that?
http://www.rickross.com/reference/rudolph/rudolph3.html (http://www.rickross.com/reference/rudolph/rudolph3.html)The time appears to me to have come when it is the duty of all to make their dissent from religion known.
--John Stuart Mill
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On 2005-04-07 08:05:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Sigh ... Terri's death was never a pro-life issue for me but rather a constitutional one.
Perhaps in time we will see a sea-change in the way our courts trample over the constitutional rights of persons who find themselves at the mercy of activists dressed in black robes.
"
Lets not forget the activists that want to starve a parents child,
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enough with the pro choice shit already, what about responsibility??????????????????????????? jesus every time one of you fucks up we all have to pay. Be responsiible for your actions and do the right thing . Maybe some of you would have been better off the VICTIM of abortion!!!!!
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If you are on death row, you have the right to 3 hots and a cott!!!! and a billion repeals more than any featus or Terry Schiavo had!
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On 2005-04-14 20:16:00, Anonymous wrote:
"If you are on death row, you have the right to 3 hots and a cott!!!! and a billion repeals more than any featus or Terry Schiavo had!"
Stop it! You're making me cry!
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June 17, 2005
In an attempt to gain 'closure,' Florida Governor Jeb Bush said Friday that a prosecutor has agreed to investigate why Terri Schiavo collapsed 15 years ago.
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Biggest question I have; is no one wants the state or federal government participating in their private lives. Better yet; in the teen help industry!
So, I ask; why would you want them making life and death decisions for us all of a sudden?
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Free Republic
THE SCHIAVO MATTER
Neal Boortz ^ | June 16, 2005 | Neal Boortz
Posted on 06/18/2005 1:02:30 AM PDT by Former Military Chick
Correct me if I'm wrong .. but when the Terri Schiavo matter was consuming front pages and broadcast news, wasn't the issue whether or not she was reacting to her parents and watching that balloon floating around her room? She should not be allowed to die, people said, because with rehab she would improve and then her family could take her to malls and birthday parties and such.
Well, the autopsy results are in. [full autopsy pdf] There was no way that Terri Schiavo could benefit in any way from rehabilitation therapy. What's more, she had no cognitive abilities. In this context the finding means that Terri could not engage in any conscious intellectual activity. She could not participate in or understand conversations. She could not communicate. She never did try to say "I want to live." She had no awareness or understanding of the state she was in, or of the controversy surrounding her. She could not see, so that rules out those stories of her watching that Mickey Mouse balloon floating around her room. It's safe to say that she was not aware of her own existence on any conscious level.
And what about those beatings that we were all-but assured that Michael Schiavo delivered to Terri Schiavo? A few months ago we were being told that Terri had been strangled by her husband. The autopsy showed no indication whatsoever of any abuse or neglect. We were being told that she had multiple broken bones ... a sure sign that she had been abused, possibly beaten. The autopsy showed no broken bones. The language of the autopsy is clear ... "no fractures."
So ... where did that leave those who were fighting so hard to keep the life form that used to be Terri Schiavo alive? Judging from the coverage of yesterday's events, they have nothing to dwell on now except for the question of how she got into this tragic state in the first place. There must be some way to continue the demonization of Michael Schiavo ... so let's concentrate on what happened to Terri Schiavo in 1990. The autopsy says that she didn't have a heart attack. The autopsy also says that there was no evidence of bulimia. I've heard some commentators say "We now know that it wasn't bulimia." Sorry, that's incorrect. We don't know that. We just know that there was no evidence of bulimia. But we are left with the question of just what happened to cause Terri's collapse. Since the autopsy couldn't tell us, the new story line must be that it was somehow Michael's fault. Terri Schiavo's brother was calling for more questioning of Michael Schiavo yesterday. We at the Boortz show were getting emails saying that the autopsy "proved" that Michael abused Terri. Amazing.
Look .. I understand the emotionalism behind this. I understand that tens of thousands of Americans who have invested themselves so heavily in the anti-choice movement placed the cause of Terri Schiavo at the center of their universe. I also understand that thousands more truly believed that Terri was communicating with her parents and watching balloons float around. They earnestly felt that with rehab treatment Terri would soon return to some semblance of a normal life. They were sure that Terri was aware that the courts were considering whether or not to remove her feeding tube, and somewhere inside she was pleading to be allowed to live. It's tough to admit that you were wrong. Been there many times. You believe something so strongly, only to find out that you were profoundly mistaken. You find out that Terri Schiavo's brain was reduced to half its normal size. She had no cognitive abilities. She was not aware of her own existence. She didn't even know she was alive, and therefore couldn't know that death was a possibility. She wasn't there. All that was left was the remains of the body that once had been Terri Schiavo .. clinging to the last threads of life.
I cannot relate to those who wanted to use artificial means to prolong the life functions of this otherwise useless body for decades more, but I can understand their dedication to life. Yesterday on the show we heard from some people who, in light of the autopsy findings, have changed their minds. They now understand that allowing her body to continue the process of dying was the humane and right thing to do. Others are not emotionally strong enough to accept this reality, and they'll now focus their efforts on Michael Schiavo. They'll now concentrate on trying to prove that he was abusive, though there is no evidence to support that claim.
More posts follow at:
http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/1425527/posts (http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/1425527/posts)
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Free Republic
Excerpts from Terri Schiavo Autopsy Report
Medical Examiner, Pasco and Pinellas Counties ^ | June 13, 2005 | Medical Examiner, Pasco and Pinellas Counties
Posted on 06/17/2005 11:56:16 PM PDT by eartotheground
Autopsy highlights: (my comments in parentheses)
T11 endplate fracture (?correllates with bone scan)
Renal scar (right)
Heart normal (no evidence of "heart attack")
"Manner of death: Undetermined"
Dr. Stephen Nelson, Neuropathologist, in a report contained within the autopsy report: "The persistent vegetative state and minimally conscious state are clinical diagnoses, not pathologic ones. The neurophysiologic findings of the persistent vegetative state have been well described in the medical literature ... yet there are no similarly published neurophysiologic descriptions specific to the minimally conscious state".
"In diffuse axonal injury this abnormality is usually due to a shearing injury after acute trauma".
"Neurophysiologic examination alone of the decedent's brain - or any brain for that matter - cannot prove or disprove a diagnosis of persistent vegetative state or minimally conscious state".
From the remainder of the report by Dr. Thogmartin:
"Mrs. Schiavo's potassium level... measured after a period of ventricular fibrillation, epinephrine, and fluid administration was an unreliable measure of her pre-arrest potassium level. Thus, the main piece of evidence supporting a diagnosis of Bulimia Nervosa is suspect or, at least, can be explained by her clinical condition at the time of the blood draw. Although in the malpractice proceedings the low protein values were suggested as indicators of malnutrition, this is unlikely and not generally characteristic of Bulimia Nervosa."
"Autopsy examination of her neck structures 15 years after her initial collapse did not detect any signs of remote trauma, but, with such a delay, the exam was unlikely to show any residual neck findings. Even bony anomalies would have likely resolved." (or suffocated, n.b.)
"What was the cause and manner of death? Mrs. Schiavo suffered a severe anoxic brain injury. The cause of which cannot be determined with reasonable medical certainty. The manner of death will therefore be certified as undetermined".
More comments follow at:
http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/1425515/posts (http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/1425515/posts)
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Fhttp://boortz.com/mp3/archive/schiavoreport.pdf (http://Fhttp://boortz.com/mp3/archive/schiavoreport.pdf)