Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Seed Discussion Forum => Topic started by: Anonymous on January 26, 2005, 08:01:00 PM
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can we please stop talkin' bout the st. pete seed since it was not the real seed. by the way, st. pete seed was still called and seed, but was not being run by art. it was run, even while still called seed, by a few rebelious staff and parents, who were told not to do this, but they kept the name seed, until they were forced to change ti to strait. anywya it was not the seed. my point is these people should be talkin in the straight forum, here it is just fort laud. thnx
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also, i'm sure that at st.pete straight the name seed was taboo and art (who should have received the credit for the techniques) was never given he credit, but the techniques were stolen from art and libbi.
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I remember the seed in St Pete the year 73 or 74 because I went to visit it...also there was one in Fort Myers and Fort Pierce same years.
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right, fran, the name was "seed" but they were not seed cause they werent even owned by art anyomre they belonged o the rebellious staff that left real seed in ft laud
until eventually they were forced to change the name to strait, but notice that for years thye kept their mouth shut about seed. it was like once thye changed the name for them art and libbi never existed when it was obvious that at seed (unlike straight) love made the difference.
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On 2005-01-26 17:01:00, Anonymous wrote:
"can we please stop talkin' bout the st. pete seed since it was not the real seed. by the way, st. pete seed was still called and seed, but was not being run by art. it was run, even while still called seed, by a few rebelious staff and parents, who were told not to do this, but they kept the name seed, until they were forced to change ti to strait. anywya it was not the seed. my point is these people should be talkin in the straight forum, here it is just fort laud. thnx"
The Seed is the Seed is the Seed. I don't think anyone should be excluded from the conversation just because they weren't in Lauderdale. Come on, the REAL Seed??? We were all mind fucked adn to exclude someone because they didn't go through the "real" one isn't in the spirit of the forums, IMHO. Believe me, whatever Seed/Straight any of us were in, it was very 'real' to each of us.
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The seed discussion forum is for survivors of the Seed and Seed copycat programs and for other interested parties. The moderator and owner of this forum accept no responsiblity for content. This is a first admendment based open discussion and all opinions and topics are welcome. By posting or reading, you agree to these terms.
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So Anon...even the seeds? in Cleveland and/or other locations in Florida were not the SEED?
I would have thought Art would have done something to stop them from calling it the Seed.When were you in the seed? How do you know this?
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On 2005-01-26 18:19:00, Anonymous wrote:
right, fran, the name was "seed" but they were not seed cause they werent even owned by art anyomre they belonged o the rebellious staff that left real seed in ft laud
Really! Then where did the $1 million+ in NIDA expansion money go???Screening pre-school kids for anti-social behavior is about as useful as screening the Christian Coalition for sanctimonious behavior.
Sanho Tree
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On 2005-01-26 18:19:00, Anonymous wrote:
"right, fran, the name was "seed" but they were not seed cause they werent even owned by art anyomre they belonged o the rebellious staff that left real seed in ft laud
until eventually they were forced to change the name to strait, but notice that for years thye kept their mouth shut about seed. it was like once thye changed the name for them art and libbi never existed when it was obvious that at seed (unlike straight) love made the difference."
sorry, but that is about as big a misrepresentation of the facts as I have seen. The st pete seed was run by John Underwood, Libby, and the director was Suzy connors. Art was there every week. When the seed packed up and closed, ALL OF THEM went to Ft lauderdale. All the staff was hand picked by Art and everything done there was done at the direction of Art.
You couldn't be more wrong Anon. By the way, pick a username and welcome. Tell us your affiliation with the seed..
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On 2005-01-26 17:01:00, Anonymous wrote:
"can we please stop talkin' bout the st. pete seed since it was not the real seed. by the way, st. pete seed was still called and seed, but was not being run by art. it was run, even while still called seed, by a few rebelious staff and parents, who were told not to do this, but they kept the name seed, until they were forced to change ti to strait. anywya it was not the seed. my point is these people should be talkin in the straight forum, here it is just fort laud. thnx"
Damn, you are just making stuff up! None of this has any basis in reality...really!
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On 2005-01-27 07:07:00, Anonymous wrote:
"The seed discussion forum is for survivors of the Seed and Seed copycat programs and for other interested parties. The moderator and owner of this forum accept no responsiblity for content. This is a first admendment based open discussion and all opinions and topics are welcome. By posting or reading, you agree to these terms."
Yep, truer words were never spoken.
:grin:
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Greg...
I know you are right...because I remember visiting the St Pete seed in 73 or 74 and all the staff members I remember were there.
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The "real Seed" isn't even a cult. It's already been sown. You think that little mustard seed around your neck meant something? Shit, I got a real tree I planted from outa the kitchen.It was just symbolic for me. It had nothing to do with a cult. I just like birds and they like mustard trees. :smokin:
Cult: A religion with no political power.
--Tom Wolfe, American author
_You'd be surprized how much power these cults have over your minds. Especially religiuous people.________________
"This is a Republic"-VA Man.[ This Message was edited by: The Seeker on 2005-01-28 14:06 ]
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Was Straight just a reincarnation of the Seed? I have been reading these posts and honestly it sounds almost like Straight. I'm still a bit confused on the history of Straight and the people that brought it all together.
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Yeah, essentially it is. After Art lost his NIDA expansion funding and the local papers were all ablaze w/ bizarre Seed stories, The Seed left St. Pete. A couple of years later, Mel and Betty Sembler (Brent's parents) along w/ half a dozen fellow parent group members founded Straight, Inc.
They used the Morgan Yacht building. They had former Seedlings as the first staff. They hung the 7 steps, the serenity prayer and the three signs on the wall. Probably kept the same "furniture", which I hear tell was crumbling to splinters already. They used much of the same lingo, though "chicks" was definitely out. There was no smoking. It didn't have a charismatic personality guru till Virgil Newton came along. Soon the headlines followed and Virgil went off, allegedly in a huff (though there's some doubt to the credibility of that story) to found Kids of North Jersey.
I thought it was just like the Seed only meaner and more regimented... even Straighter, if you know what I mean. But then, I was never in group at The Seed. I was just in one foster home (my house) and a whole bitch of a lot of open meetings, "volunteer" lunch making missions and such like that.
They came with a Bible and their religion- stole our land, crushed our spirit... and now tell us we should be thankful to the 'Lord' for being saved.
--Chief Pontiac, American Indian Chieftain
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until eventually they were forced to change the name to strait, but notice that for years thye kept their mouth shut about seed. it was like once thye changed the name for them art and libbi never existed when it was obvious that at seed (unlike straight) love made the difference."
I want some of what he/she is smoking. :rofl: :rofl:
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When the seed packed up and closed, ALL OF THEM went to Ft lauderdale. All the staff was hand picked by Art and everything done there was done at the direction of Art.
Greg, you are right, I have since learned that the Seed left St. Pete cause they did not agree with the way that parents wanted things dome their. If Art would have wanted to he would have catered to the stupid whims of rich parents, but he chose to take the hard road and not allow them to distort his programs, which they did distort in the form of Straight. But you know very well that Straight did not have the loyal staff that the Seed did and at the Seed you could not blow holes into the staff sitting onose stools because they lived up to what they talked about. Straight was a business, not a family "that was meant to be together." And you know this Greg!
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You're dead wrong, 90's guy. Seed staff never lived up to their dogma either. You couldn't blow holes in them because there were serious consequences for criticizing staff. Same w/ Straight.
You really think it was just coincidence that Art pulled up stakes right after he lost his NIDA expansion funding? And all that bad publicity in the papers had no effect either? How can you be so gullible?
The one grain of truth to the version you've been told is that the parents and staff who founded Straight did want a kinder, gentler program. So that's just what Mel and Betty told them they would do in order to get their money and time.
But that's not what happened. The first BOD member to speak up about it found himself ruined financially. So the next one to bail out invented a reason; forced haircuts. The argument wasn't about the relative therapeutic value of holding a kid down and taking his hair w/o his cooperation, but the insurance liability. Essentially, the argument was "you'll put someone's eye out!"
But Straight staff and Seed staff were just the same. In fact the original Straight staff were former Seed staffers. They also lived in Staff apartments, worked for less than minimum wage, drove ratty old cars and all the rest.
The really interesting part of the story is what went on behind the scenes. Of course, us mushrooms in group didn't know anything about any of this, and the parents knew very little either. But the funding followed the Semblers. NIDA was prohibited from cutting the checks after the Ervin report, but LEAA just ignored that prohibition and nobody ever made an issue of it.
Bobby DuPont also stuck w/ the Semblers. As late as the early `90's, he testified as an expert wittness on behalf of Straight when they were sued. And he also signed onto an amicus brief written by DFAF (fka Straight, Inc.) opposing Angel Raich. Same MFer who gave Art some millions in NIDA grants is still beating the drums for DFAF.
Here's Wes' blog on DFAF
http://drugfreeamericafoundation.blogspot.com/ (http://drugfreeamericafoundation.blogspot.com/)They serve so that we don't have to. They offer to give up their lives so that we can be free. It is, remarkably, their gift to us. And all they ask for in return is that we never send them into harm's way unless it is absolutely necessary. Will they ever trust us again?
Michael More
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On 2005-04-15 22:39:00, 90's Guy wrote:
" When the seed packed up and closed, ALL OF THEM went to Ft lauderdale. All the staff was hand picked by Art and everything done there was done at the direction of Art.
Greg, you are right, I have since learned that the Seed left St. Pete cause they did not agree with the way that parents wanted things dome their. If Art would have wanted to he would have catered to the stupid whims of rich parents, but he chose to take the hard road and not allow them to distort his programs, which they did distort in the form of Straight. But you know very well that Straight did not have the loyal staff that the Seed did and at the Seed you could not blow holes into the staff sitting onose stools because they lived up to what they talked about. Straight was a business, not a family "that was meant to be together." And you know this Greg!"
Not really. The seed was more of a personality cult, not a family. Families don't disown each other for having different opinions.
some straight associates are together to this day...they would take great exception to what you say.
In the final result, straight, inc. was the seed, all dressed up for the prom, but without a prom date.
It too failed because the basic premise, like the seed, was a fraud.
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reread ginger's post above. It is spot on. I have inside information to corroborate everything she says about the early straight...
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Hey Everyone,
I stumbled on this group by accident, but I thought I 'd mention that I grew up a block away from the Seed in Ft. Lauderdale ( I was 10 yrs old in '72). I was on 3rd Ave & 14the Strret, I think the Seed was Andrews and 14th or 13th I think.
What was the Straight? An off-shoot of the Seed or...?
Just wondering,
Michael Chatham
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People that broke away from the Seed started "Straight" in St. Pete.
I happened to catch the "Montel" TV Show this morning at 6:00AM. Two sisters from straight and a girl or "chick" from an overseas program and another guy and his Dad from WASP. I see no similarities between those programs and the Seed what they had to say in refrence to the way they were treated and the way I was. The Seed offshoots were very bad.
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They Didn't "break away from the seed"...the seed packed up and left St Petersburg. These were all strong seed supporters, seed graduates and seed parents who tried to Fill the gap that the seed left in St Petersburg, and they just copied the Seed verbatim.
The only thing lacking was the weird little guy with matching shoes and belt.
GregFL
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On 2005-05-05 05:14:00, Anonymous wrote:
I see no similarities between those programs and the Seed what they had to say in refrence to the way they were treated and the way I was. The Seed offshoots were very bad. "
Well that's funny. Because when I landed up in Straight, it seemed just exactly like The Seed to me, maybe just a tad more hard edged in some ways. And we were told again and again how damned lucky we were that we didn't land up in The Seed. I just kept my mouth shut about that. All I wanted was out and you don't get there by disagreeing w/ staff!
There is something feeble and contemptible about a man who cannot face life without the help of comfortable myths.
--Bertrand Russell, British philosopher, educator, mathemetician, and social critic
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Wow, Michael, what was that like? In `73, I was 8 and spent a whole lot of time in that creepy building or waiting out in the parking lot w/ my parents for the Seedlings to be released. When I got back from Sarasota 10 years later, I thought it was so ironic that someone had set up a haunted house in that building. Never went, though. Did you? Was it any good?
There never was a good war or a bad peace.
--Benjamin Franklin, (1773)
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Ginger,
I can't say I ever went to the haunted house. Something about a permanent haunted house was a bit weird to me at the time (I understood setting then up around Halloween time...).
I haven't lived there for quite a while (I'm in Brooklyn these days) and my memory of which building was on which corner gets a bit jumbled...
I was pretty naive about drugs at the time the Seed was there (I was about 12) and though my Dad was pretty old-fashioned and narrow-minded, he never bad-mouthed the place as I recall.
It's been really interesting reading the posts here and knowing a bit of what was going on there. It seems there's great disagreement as to whether it was what it professed to be. What I haven't seen specified was did it work? Cult is an easy word to throw around. In my opinion AA is a cult of sorts. But that doesn't make it necessarily bad.
Was it an effective program? What were the prevailing, for lack of a better word, addictions? my sense is that speed was one, but my drug knowlege is all late 70s.
Could you increase my understanding?
Michael
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there were no prevailing addictions, Michael. The vast majority of seedlings were not addicted to anything but instead were smoking pot and/or getting in trouble at home. Kids were even senteneced there by the courts for skipping school or shopplifting. Once there, the drug use was greatly exxagerated. Once in a while an actual addict came in, but they rarely stayed for long. IF they stayed, they usually groomed them for staff and looked up to by the rest of the kids...this had something to do with what the kids today call street cred.
If you are really interested in increasing your knowledge about your childhood neighbor, you only need to read this forum.
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Hi Michael.
Art claimed a 90% cure rate, but this figure has never been backed by any objective study that I'm aware of. There's also the problem of criteria for what constitutes effectiveness or being straight. The majority of oldtimers I've known returned to some level of drug use at some point after the seed. Though I don't use drugs, I have an occasional drink, so by one set of standards I would be considered a program failure. How do you count those that completed the program but went on to become heavier drug users or alcoholics...but then at some point stopped using again on their own or via another program? Are these people seed success stories or failures? Lots of gray areas.
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Right O Right O I mean Right toe!!!!
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What about your left toe? ::bigsmilebounce::
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I can somewhat remember the prevailing hysteria regarding drug use at the time, the "how to spot a drug abuser ads in TV guide (aviator shades, blue jeans, ...half the kids in America), a special presentation at the Elks Club (Dad was a member) teaching parents about how to spot their kids on drugs, including burning some brown pellet thing that supposedly smelled like pot.
Higher up the thread someone mentioned Skipper Chuck/Chuck Zink (how I stumbled upon this board BTW). I remember him hosting a show on WTVJ-4, a real scare job that reinforced the gateway theory. Some kid smokes pot, then does acid hallucinates different color straws spinning (great special effects), then swims out into the ocean to drown himself... .
I wouldn't be surprised if that show was underwritten by the Seed.
I remember when I was older and got busted with half a joint at age 16 going to the Broward County Courthouse. The mediator, or whatever he was, saying to me and my Dad: "you know, pot does lead to heroin.."
Fortunately, I wasn't sent to any program. Perhaps my Mom, who was a nurse, knew better than to over-react. I'm sure my Dad would have gone for sending me to The Seed if it was there at the time.
Michael
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I wouldn't be surprised if that show was underwritten by the Seed.
"
hmmm.....
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I remember after I had been an oldtimer for a while (maybe 74') that I was taken to a couple of either Optimist club (in Sarasota I think) or Elks club meetings to stand up and "tell my story" about myself at a luncheon in front of groups of maybe 40-50 men. It was just like standing up at open meeting and telling in a general 10- 15 minutes what you were like, what you did, how you felt, how you've changed and what the Seed meant to you. It is funny I had not thought of this in years. I do remember that it was dead silence during my story and alot of enthusiam when I was done. I cannot even remember who it was that took me? Was there an older gentlemen a "Claude" that was a Seed supporter? I am really stretching on that one, anyway, thanks for letting me throw my 2 cents in occasionally, Love you guys!
Chris Lewis
Seed 10/73 -
AA 9/91 ....
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Yes, Claude Greene was a local activist Seed supporter, and also a seed parent. He arranged many of these meetings and also was widely quoted in the press during the almost daily articles on the seed in either The St pete times or St Pete Independent.
Good memory!
Tell us more.
gregfl
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:wstupid: :smokin: :flame: :???:
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I remember Earl- He was a decent guy. He also Had another brother If my memory serves me correctly.
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You guts ever heard of this one??
SYNANON (65) aka Get Off My Back. Gritty, fact based B&W melodrama about desperate dope fiends trying to shake that monkey at the title establishment, a controversial and now defunct rehab center that specialized in soul stripping "tough love" encounter sessions. Alex Cord stars as the new junkie on the block, a shifty pretty boy who quickly makes a play for ex-hooker Stella Stevens running afoul of brooding, torch carrying ex-convict Chuck Conners in the process. With Richard Conte, Eartha Kitt, Edmond O?Brien and a boppin? jazz soundtrack.
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Ben - was the other brother