Post by: Anonymous on November 16, 2004, 01:42:00 PM
(1) Think AA stinks and uses shame and fear to intimidate people into changing their behavior
(2) Think AA is OK for people who really need some immediate help but not good for the long-term
(3) Think AA is good for people who like it and not for people who don't
(4) Think AA is great for all people who are alcoholics wether they like it or not
AND, do you think your opinion is shaped by your straight experience or independent of it??
JUST CURIOUS
:wave:
Post by: Sophie on November 16, 2004, 04:06:00 PM
I think my time in straight has influenced all areas of my life. But, I don't think it has colored this issue specifically. Treatment and 12 step meetings are totally different things.
Of course, this is just my opinion! :grin:
Post by: Anonymous on November 16, 2004, 04:31:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on November 16, 2004, 05:21:00 PM
If I was one legged, I would not want to spend all my time in a room of one leggers talking about my missing leg all day....
Post by: Carmel on November 16, 2004, 05:45:00 PM
I cannot see how a man of any large degree of humorous perception can ever be religious -- unless he purposely shut the eyes of his mind and keep them shut by force.
--Samuel Clemens "Mark Twain", American author and humorist
Post by: Woof-a-Doof on November 16, 2004, 06:17:00 PM
AA saved my drunk ass.
Is it for all alcoholics...No
Are there other alternatives...Yes
My experience in working with the the mental health system and Detox's in the area is that they will only recommend AA..(what else can treatment centers offer?) Althought there are other avenues for a drunk to survive, treatments centers I have worked in historically have reccomended AA. There are other methods for a drunk to stay sober....say....by not drinking.
Is my opinion shaped by my "Straight Experience", absolutely. The Straight Experience is one of the major filters that help to form an opinion on most anything...for better or worse, Straight left an impression on me, and as such it effects my opinions, reaction, and responces to my surroundings...especially institiutions that claim to have an amswer........
Post by: Helena Handbasket on November 16, 2004, 07:14:00 PM
"Admit we are powerless...."
Sheer Bullshit!!!
:roll:Post by: 85 Day Jerk on November 16, 2004, 07:27:00 PM
I had put this poor woman through hell as a tenant. I would do shit like come home drunk as shit from the rock club and ride up the sidewalk on my motorcycle at 2 in the morning. If that were'nt enough, I hit a pile of wet leaves on the sidewalk while braking, lost control and hit the side of her house so fuckin hard that I knocked out some of the foundation blocks from their moorings. But there sat Mrs. Eastman, all ears to hear me stand up and admit to being an alcoholic. Instead, I stood up, said my first name and stated that I had bipolar disorder and that since receiving medication, I no longer drank like a fish.
I could'nt bring myself to "give in" so to speak and was smug in my decision until a lady I had not seen in quite some time came up and introduced herself. She was gorgeous, looked like Barbara Bach/Daisy Duke, we used to pal around together. I apologized for putting a cigarette burn in her car years earlier, and she apologized for doing multiple donuts through Woodlawn Circle at 70 miles per hour cuz I could'nt find her any pot one night. I awkwardly asked her on a date, and she replied, "You are'nt ready yet," and patted me on the shoulder. It would be years before I would come to realize what she meant. This was around 1987.
I saw her in the grocery store not long ago. Her dark hair had streaks of grey and she was wearing bi-focals reading a package of cottage cheese or something. She recognized me at once and even remembered my name. Glancing down, she could'nt help but notice the six-pack of Rolling Rock in the bottle sitting in my basket. Her face disolved like rain first hitting the windshield, said her goodbyes, nice to see ya agains, and moved on, leaving me standing there feeling like a jerk. I guess I still am not ready for some things.
For myself, I attend support meetings for people who are bipolar. Some meetings I get alot out of, others leave me frustrated. I still drink on occasion, but I fight the desire more and more. My secondary drink of choice is Lemonade, followed by Jasmine Tea. I would prefer Sassafras, but does not grow wild this far south and was taken off the market several years ago. As it stands, I am about 40 pounds overweight, and know damn well that I will not get below 210 pounds as long as I keep on drinking. Hopefully the new medication the doc put me on will help curb the urge. I also need to spruce up the Mountain Bike and hit the road instead of drive everywhere. A.A. works for some and not for others. I am one of the 'others.' The meetings are like that scene in the EMPIRE STRIKES BACK where Luke Skywalker has to go into the cave, refuses to give up the lightsaber and is forced to see that he was defeated by his own fear. Could I go to a meeting? Yes I could. Will I? Not until I learn to trust in myself enough to trust other people.
Post by: Anonymous on November 16, 2004, 08:09:00 PM
I've never been to an AA meeting... don't hardly ever drink, but have any friends who've gone and it's done WONDERS!
Post by: Anonymous on November 16, 2004, 08:10:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-11-16 16:14:00, Sara-1984 wrote:
"My biggest problem is with the first few words of the first step of AA, or Straight, or LIFE or whatever:
"Admit we are powerless...."Sheer Bullshit!!!
:roll: "
lol denial
Post by: Helena Handbasket on November 16, 2004, 09:31:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-11-16 17:10:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
On 2004-11-16 16:14:00, Sara-1984 wrote:
"My biggest problem is with the first few words of the first step of AA, or Straight, or LIFE or whatever:
"Admit we are powerless...."Sheer Bullshit!!!
:roll: "
lol denial"
Oh, so you're saying having power is denial??
- Sara
Post by: Anonymous on November 16, 2004, 10:18:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-11-16 18:31:00, Sara-1984 wrote:Sara Sara,
"Quote
On 2004-11-16 17:10:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
On 2004-11-16 16:14:00, Sara-1984 wrote:
"My biggest problem is with the first few words of the first step of AA, or Straight, or LIFE or whatever:
"Admit we are powerless...."Sheer Bullshit!!!
:roll: "
lol denial"
Oh, so you're saying having power is denial??
- Sara
"
You have no power here, now be gone with you, before someone drops a house on you too. :lol:
Post by: Anonymous on November 16, 2004, 10:43:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-11-16 17:10:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
On 2004-11-16 16:14:00, Sara-1984 wrote:
"My biggest problem is with the first few words of the first step of AA, or Straight, or LIFE or whatever:
"Admit we are powerless...."Sheer Bullshit!!!
:rofl: :wave: :grin:
Post by: Anonymous on November 16, 2004, 11:04:00 PM
you are being polite in not responding to my request to interview you, or anyone else, for a documentary/and website for survivors of several institutions and church molestations. If you are interested I will expect a reply. If not, this is the last I will request your wanted interview. Up to you, friend.
Post by: Helena Handbasket on November 16, 2004, 11:34:00 PM
Quote
Sara Sara,
You have no power here, now be gone with you, before someone drops a house on you too. :scared:
Sounds like someone dropped the truth on you. Carry on.
:rofl:
Post by: Anonymous on November 17, 2004, 09:15:00 AM
Quote
On 2004-11-16 16:14:00, Sara-1984 wrote:
"My biggest problem is with the first few words of the first step of AA, or Straight, or LIFE or whatever:
"Admit we are powerless...."Sheer Bullshit!!!
:roll: "
I always wondered about this one too. Admit we were powerless over something that we were supposed to ultimately gain control over? I think the first step is a cop-out.
I look at AA as just another outlet for addiction. Most people never conquer addictive behaviour, long after they have ceased to drink or do drugs. AA deals with the drink.....not whatever it was that drove you to drink. I think that whole concept is the biggest factor in the failure of all substance abuse treatment.
Not to say it doesnt help people, but I feel that those certain people end up having to fill in some pretty precarious blanks that AA leaves out. Its a gamble.
Post by: Carmel on November 17, 2004, 09:16:00 AM
The Christian faith from the beginning, is sacrifice: the sacrifice of all freedom, all pride, all self-confidence of spirit; it is at the same time subjection, a self-derision, and self-mutilation.
--Freidrich Nietzsche, German philosopher
Post by: shady grove on November 17, 2004, 09:53:00 AM
The first step of NA says that "we admitted we were powerless over our addiction, that our lives had become unmanageable".
That doesn't mean that we have no power over our self will, decisions, actions, etc. But being powerless over addiction is the definition of addiction. If you're not an addict, it doesn't apply to you.
12 step programs provide the "therapeutic value of one addict helping another" which cannot be found in hospitals, from doctor's, detoxes, social workers or Straight. Again, not an addict? Then it probably won't help you.
The best part of any of this is I make the diagnosis. If YOU decide you are an addict, alcoholic, junkie (whatever-all the same) than so be it. If not, then don't come, or do, whatever!
Shame, fear, coercion? What? Sounds like straight, not any meetings I've ever been to. It saddens me to think some here may have encountered this in meetings. This violates the steps and traditions. I have definately met some real assholes in AA and NA (lots), and have also met some of the most caring people I know, who to this day are most closest friends. They give me love, empathy and insight I can get nowhere else, especially from my family.
For me, the only good that came of straight was pointing me towards 12 step programs. Granted, when I got outa straight I thought I had invented the 12 steps and was gonna teach everyone how it was done, but that was another part in my straight deprogramming.
About the poll. Here's a cop out: AA and NA work for me, so I can't really have an opinion on who else it may work for. All of that is a personal decision. I will make one blanket statement: anyone in AA or NA that says their program is for everyone and/or uses fear and shame to coerce you into attending meetings has shit of their own to deal with. :eek:
Post by: thepatriot on November 17, 2004, 11:37:00 AM
Post by: Idreamofnewtonsburning on November 17, 2004, 11:50:00 AM
http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.ph ... 88&forum=7 (http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=4488&forum=7)
If you think that the Stepcult, in ANY of it's forms, has helped you, you are profoundly mistaken, and quite possibly, MORE fucked up now than you were before you fell prey to it's clutches.
Post by: Anonymous on November 18, 2004, 03:00:00 AM
You are right. Choice and freedom to get help. States are requiring DWI offenders to attend AA meetings as part of their sentences, so in that respect it is not voluntary but, at least you are free to chose between jail, hefty fines and AA. I would choose AA in that case. Of course, not drinking and driving works wonders on that problem too... :lol:
Post by: Anonymous on November 18, 2004, 11:43:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on November 18, 2004, 12:10:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-11-18 08:43:00, Anonymous wrote:
Imagine that --- the best of both worlds, being in jail AND required to attend Stepcraft seminars.
It was called Straight, Inc.
Post by: shady grove on November 18, 2004, 05:20:00 PM
There is no man behind the curtain folks.
(hey, another wizard of oz reference-I swear I didn't plan that)
I really think it's a shame that straight left such a bad taste in so many peoples' mouths about 12 step groups-they really have nothing in common with each other. Straight tried to ride on there coat tails, and b/c of the fact that there are no leaders in AA, no one could tell them not to. AA simply has no opinion.
Post by: Sophie on November 18, 2004, 05:32:00 PM
Tonya's mom was a science teacher. I told her about this delimma I was having over the peanut butter thing. The next day she brought home these little strips of what looked like regular old parchment. She told tonya to put one in her mouth. She just looked blankly and blinked like, ok mom what? I put the piece of paper in my mouth and spit it right back out. It was HORRIBLE, the most disgusting bitter nasty thing I had ever tasted.
People are different, diversity is our strength.
AA works for those who want it to work and not for those who don't. There is no reason to slam either side and call them names or label them evil. If you are bitter about 12 step groups, don't go to them. They help a lot of people.
I agree that court ordering people to meetings is bullshit. I also agree that calling a choice;a choice between going to jail and going to meetings is bullshit also. But what other solutions do we have right now?
Post by: Anonymous on November 18, 2004, 05:55:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-11-18 14:32:00, Sophie wrote:Well Put! :tup:
"When I was in 7th grade I had a friend named Tonya. We were alike in very many ways. One major difference between us was that I loved peanut butter and she couldn't stand it. She would rather have oven cleaner rubbed in her eyes than eat peanut butter. I could not understand this. Something was terribly wrong with either her or me.
Tonya's mom was a science teacher. I told her about this delimma I was having over the peanut butter thing. The next day she brought home these little strips of what looked like regular old parchment. She told tonya to put one in her mouth. She just looked blankly and blinked like, ok mom what? I put the piece of paper in my mouth and spit it right back out. It was HORRIBLE, the most disgusting bitter nasty thing I had ever tasted.
People are different, diversity is our strength.
AA works for those who want it to work and not for those who don't. There is no reason to slam either side and call them names or label them evil. If you are bitter about 12 step groups, don't go to them. They help a lot of people.
I agree that court ordering people to meetings is bullshit. I also agree that calling a choice;a choice between going to jail and going to meetings is bullshit also. But what other solutions do we have right now?
"
Post by: Anonymous on November 18, 2004, 06:17:00 PM
Stop driving. :cool:
Post by: beth1222 on November 18, 2004, 09:13:00 PM
Post by: PerfectStraightling on November 19, 2004, 12:00:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on November 19, 2004, 12:27:00 AM
1-anonymity
2-the 12th step.
Anonymity keeps people from engaging in research on its effectiveness, which is really the standard that the field of psychology uses to validate different approaches. Without research, AA is at best, well...based on faith, and also anecdote which technically speaking proves nothing.
The 12th step is huge in this regard as people believe that without "passing along the message" they will end up in "jails, institutions, or death." Sound familiar anyone?? The conspiracy comes from within each individual, and exists to the extent that they buy into this way of thinking. It is a like an illness that is contagious to people with a weakened sense of self.
Post by: Anonymous on November 19, 2004, 12:47:00 AM
The solution to end DWI's is simple.
Stop driving. [addsig]
:idea:
We could ship the offenders to San Salvador. Drunk drivers there are shot dead on the spot.
Post by: Anonymous on November 19, 2004, 02:57:00 AM
If they say it worked for them it didn't its all bad. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: good god give it a rest already
Post by: Woof-a-Doof on November 19, 2004, 07:30:00 AM
What I have never understood is that individuals are required to get signatures from AA members validating thier attendance.
If it were me, and I didnt want to attend meetings...I would simply belly up to the bar and have people sign the sheets...Seems pretty simple, but thats just me.
Wonder why more people haven't thought of that? Perhaps they hadn't gone thru Straight and learned the finer skills of deception, deceit and dishonesty.
I attended meetings for almost a year in an effort to stop drinking before I was mandated to attended AA meetings. I needed 45 (or some arcane number) signatures. I had the signatures in about 48 hours.
It worked.
BTW, I haven't drank since my last binge 7 years ago...My attendance in AA has been minimal this time around. I was sober 5 years prior to that last binge, returning to the fold I quickly learned that some folks in AA avoided me like the plague. So much for the "fellowship" being based on inclusion rather than exclusion.
Just my experience.
Post by: shady grove on November 19, 2004, 07:39:00 AM
This is just not how it is, but I am realizing as I type this that there is no way to prove this to you...and frankly no reason.
No, there's no hard data...AA has no opinion on that. There's nothing to prove. If it helps, come, if not...go. AA is not Borg, jeez.
Post by: RTP2003 on November 19, 2004, 12:37:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-11-18 14:20:00, shady grove wrote:Bill Wilson's widow makes six-figures annually in royalties from the "The Big Book".
"Who's "they"? I love a good conspiracy theory as much as the next, but there really isin't an individual or group that is benefitting/profitting from all this groupthink shame-based brainwashing.
Quote
There is no man behind the curtain folks.
(hey, another wizard of oz reference-I swear I didn't plan that)
There may not be a conscious conspiracy, but the powerful and lucrative Treatment Industry behaves as if there were. Stepcraft is practiced and encouraged in nearly every public treatment facility in the United States, and in most of the private ones, too. The Stepcult has become part and parcel of many "drug court" programs, with required attendence at Stepcult religious services (AA/NA meetings)being an integral part of many pre-trial programs and probation conditions. This is a clear violation of Separation of Church and State.
Quote
I really think it's a shame that straight left such a bad taste in so many peoples' mouths about 12 step groups-they really have nothing in common with each other. Straight tried to ride on there coat tails, and b/c of the fact that there are no leaders in AA, no one could tell them not to. AA simply has no opinion."
"No leaders in AA?" Then why the cult of personality around Bill Wilson and "Dr. Bob"? Or the elevated stature of the "oldcomers", I mean, "Sponsors"? Not to mention the "old-timers" at meetings that are lurking, waiting to "13th Step" new recruits, particularly the young, attractive female ones?
Let's face it-- AA/NA/Stepcraft are CULTS, pure and simple. Maybe not as immediately or acutely destructive to the individuals involved as was Straight, but cults nonetheless, and possibly more dangerous to society as a whole simply because they are more accepted and widespread.
Post by: RTP2003 on November 19, 2004, 12:45:00 PM
Post by: PerfectStraightling on November 19, 2004, 01:40:00 PM
Post by: Sophie on November 19, 2004, 08:40:00 PM
Thanks.
Post by: Cleopatra2U on November 20, 2004, 12:03:00 AM
Quote
Think AA is good for people who like it and not for people who don't
My opinion is shaped by all of my life experiences, including Straight.
Based on my life experiences, I think that recovery is similar to alcohol and drugs in that if you are using it, then it's fine, but if it is using you, then you are in a world of sh!t. Just like alcoholics and drug addicts aren't likely to tell you to quit using even if it's hurting you, steppers aren't likely to tell you quit going to meetings even if it's hurting you. In the end, YOU are the one who must make decisions for and by YOURSELF. If you're uncomfortable doing something, then don't do it.
Post by: mental torture made me li on November 21, 2004, 12:57:00 PM
I finally drank again, and smoked some marijuana. That was a good decision. I'm not "addicted", and I don't need to waste my time at those meetings. I am glad to have my mental space back.[ This Message was edited by: Pietra on 2004-12-12 02:26 ]
Post by: Cleopatra2U on November 21, 2004, 02:04:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-11-21 09:57:00, Pietra wrote:
"I finally drank again, and smoked some marijuana. That was a good decision. I'm not "addicted", and I don't need to waste my time at those meetings. I am glad to have my mental space back."
Hear, hear! :tup:
Post by: Tony Stark on November 22, 2004, 12:13:00 AM
What a distressing contrast there is between the radiant intelligence of the child and the feeble mentality of the average adult.[ This Message was edited by: Admiral Nelson on 2004-11-21 21:21 ]
-- Sigmund Freud
Post by: Antigen on November 22, 2004, 05:20:00 PM
And I've got decades on ya', friend. My grandfather was one of the original professional alcoholics, starting just after the great Stock Market crash. AA has been an unwelcome part of my life since before I was born.
Besides, every court that has ever examined the question has ruled that AA is a religion for purposes of the protection clause. I hope that, eventually, that becomes common knowledge so that bone headed judges will quit ordering people to attend and that vulnerable people will know that they have some legal recourse if they do.
Faith, as well intentioned as it may be, must be built on facts, not fiction- faith in fiction is a damnable false hope.
--Thomas Edison, American inventor
Post by: Anonymous on November 22, 2004, 09:48:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on November 22, 2004, 09:51:00 PM
Post by: Tony Stark on November 23, 2004, 01:59:00 AM
You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war.
--Albert Einstein
A strong offence is a good defence, but we are fighting the wrong war right now according to the CIA.
_________________
"This is a Republic"-VA Man.
Post by: Anonymous on November 23, 2004, 09:33:00 AM
I'm really tired of people telling me that I need to live by some set of arbitrary rules that a couple of crazy old men set up out of another freaked out religion. Don't believe me? Look up a true bio of Bill Wilson. Clinically certifiable. Literally. During the time he was developing his little cult and writing it's bible. But, people continue to live their lives according to his rules. Fucking amazing.
Post by: Tony Stark on November 23, 2004, 11:08:00 AM
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid
of the dark. The real tragedy of life is
when men are afraid of the light.
--Plato
Post by: Anonymous on November 23, 2004, 12:53:00 PM
Do you feel ashamed every time you get upset about something, heaven forbid, angry? :flame: Do you know there are actually healthy forms of anger and resentment that protect us and tell us when we're in danger? :cool:
Post by: Anonymous on November 23, 2004, 01:09:00 PM
If you start with the books Dr. Bob's wife Anne recommended and shared from her journal with early AAs and their families, you will find Anne recommending the Book of Acts, Psalms, Proverbs, and other specific sections. She also recommends Fosdick's book on The Meaning of Prayer, which is filled with Bible references pertaining to prayer. She recommends several books on the life of Jesus Christ which, also, are filled with Bible references. She recommends life-changing books by Sam Shoemaker and others, and these spell out appropriate Bible sources for the very spiritual ideas Rev. Shoemaker was teaching early AAs. So too with the Glenn Clark books and E. Stanley Jones books.
If you start with some of the books Dr. Bob recommended, you'll be looking at The Greatest Thing in the World by Drummond, which discusses 1 Corinthians 13. You'll look at several books on Matthew 5-7 (the sermon on the mount delivered by Jesus). These include books by Oswald Chambers, Glenn Clark, E. Stanley Jones, Emmet Fox, and others. Most of those authors discuss almost every single verse in the sermon. Though there is no commentary on the Book of James, The Runner's Bible (which Dr. Bob widely recommended) discussed many parts many portions of James, which is the book Anne frequently read to Bob and Bill at the Smith home in the summer of 1935. The many books by Rev. Sam Shoemaker, Oxford Group writers, new thought writers, and others such as Kagawa all became rich sources for the simple ideas AAs extracted from the Good Book and incorporated into their spiritual program of recovery. That program, of course, involved intensive work with newcomers, prayer, Bible study, and being in frequent, daily fellowship with like-minded believers..
In this segment, the focus will be on the three portions of the Bible which Dr. Bob said he and the early A.A. pioneers considered "absolutely essential." Here are some of the pioneer comments about those three segments (Matthew 5-7, the Book of James, and 1 Corinthians 13):
When we started in on Bill D. [who was A.A. Number Three], we had no Twelve Steps [said Dr. Bob]. . . But we were convinced that the answer to our problems was in the Good Book. To some of us older ones, the parts that we found absolutely essential were the Sermon on the Mount, the thirteenth chapter of First Corinthians, and the Book of James (The Co-founders of Alcoholics Anonymous: Biographical sketches Their last major talks. New York: Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc., 1972, 1975, pp. 9-10)
Members of Alcoholics Anonymous begin the day with a prayer for strength and a short period of Bible reading. They find the basic messages they need in the Sermon on the Mount, in Corinthians and the Book of James [said Dr. Bob] (Wally P., But for the Grace of God, p. 45).
Before there was a Big Book-in the period of "flying blind," God's Big Book was the reference used in our home [said Dr. Bob's son, Smitty]. The summer of 1935, when Bill lived with us, Dr. Bob had read the Bible completely three times. And the references that seemed consistent with the program goals were the Sermon on the Mount, 1 Corinthians 13, and the Book of James (Dick B., The Good Book and The Big Book, p. ix).
There is the Bible that you haven't opened for years. Get acquainted with it. Read it with an open mind. You will find things that will amaze you. You will be convinced that certain passages were written with you in mind. Read the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew V, VI, and VII). Read St. Paul's inspired essay on love (I Corinthians XIII). Read the Book of James. Read the Twenty-third and Ninety-first Psalms. These readings are brief but so important (A Manual for Alcoholics Anonymous, 6th rev. ed. Akron, Ohio, AA of Akron, 1989, p. :cool:.
Each morning there was devotion [said Bill Wilson]. After the long silence Anne [Dr. Bob's wife] would read out of the Good Book. James was our favorite (RHS. New York: The AA Grapevine, Inc., 1951, p. 5).
I sort of always felt that something was lost from A.A. when we stopped emphasizing morning meditation [said Bill Wilson] (DR. BOB and the Good Oldtimers, New York: Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc., 1980, p. 178).
We much favored the Apostle James. The definition of live in Corinthians also played a great part in our discussions, [said Bill Wilson] (Kurtz, Not-God. Hazelden, 1991, p. 320, n. 11).
I learned a great deal from you people [said Bill Wilson in December 12, 1954 interview of T. Henry and Clarace Williams], from the Smiths themselves, and from Henrietta [Seiberling]. I hadn't looked in the Bible, up to this time, at all [referring to the meetings and conversations in the summer of 1935] (Dick B., The Akron Genesis, p. 64).
The Sermon on the Mount [Matthew Chapters 5 - 7] contains the underlying spiritual philosophy of A.A. [said both Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob] (Dick B., The Good Book and The Big Book, p. 4).
The key Bible segments most frequently mentioned in connection with the essentials used to put the pioneer program of recovery together, then, were the Sermon, James, and Corinthians.
And we believe any study of A.A. history, A.A. principles, A.A. literature, and the A.A. fellowship requires a knowledge of what the early AAs took from the three key Bible sources. You will no doubt see how the various segments of those particular Biblical materials seem quite clearly to have influenced or found their way into the Big Book and the Twelve Steps. We think those materials so important that they justify a separate item-by-item review at this point.
The Sermon on the Mount
Our discussion here will not deal with this or that commentary on Matthew Chapters 5-7. It will focus on the Sermon on the Mount itself; for this Sermon which Jesus delivered was not the property of some particular writer. The fact that Dr. Bob read the Matthew chapters themselves as well as the many interpretations of them seems to verify an A.A. belief that the Sermon itself is one of the principles comprising "the common property of mankind," which Bill Wilson said the AAs had borrowed. And we will now review some major points that appear to have found their way from the Sermon into the thinking behind the Big Book. The places where the pioneers found these points mentioned were, of course, in the sermon itself. In addition, the many materials early AAs read, and which contained the sermon items, are thoroughly documented in The Good Book and The Big Book.
The Lord's Prayer-Matthew 6:9-13
Oxford Group meetings closed with the Lord's Prayer-in New York and in Akron. The author has attended at least two thousand A.A. meetings, and almost every one has closed with the Lord's Prayer. At the 1990 International A.A. Conference in Seattle, which this author attended, some 50,000 members of Alcoholics Anonymous joined in closing their meetings with the Lord's Prayer. The question here concerns what parts, if any, of the Lord's Prayer found their way into the Big Book, Steps, Slogans, and fellowship; and we do point out here that the prayer is part of the Sermon on the Mount.
Here are the verses of the Lord's Prayer (King James Version) as found in Matthew 6:9-13. Jesus instructed the Judaeans, "After this manner therefore pray ye":
Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
Dr. Bob studied commentaries on the Sermon by Oswald Chambers, Glenn Clark, Emmet Fox, and E. Stanley Jones. And these writers extracted a good many teachings, prayer guides, and theological ideas from the Lord's Prayer verses in the Sermon. But there are a few concepts and phrases in the Lord's Prayer which either epitomize A.A. thinking or can be found in its language-whether the A.A. traces came from the Lord's Prayer itself of from other portions of the Bible.
The Big Book uses the word "Father" when referring to God; and the context of the usage shows that the name came from the Bible. The Oxford Group also used the term "Father," among other names, when referring to God. The concept and expression of God as "Father" is not confined to the Sermon on the Mount. It can be found in many other parts of the New Testament. But AAs have given the "Our Father" prayer a special place in their meetings. So the Lord's Prayer seems the likely source of their use of the word "Father."
The phrase "Thy will be done" is directly quoted in the Big Book and underlies A.A.'s contrast between "self-will" and "God's will." The Oxford Group stressed, as do A.A.'s Third and Seventh Step prayers, that there must be a decision to do God's will and to surrender to His will. These ideas were often symbolized in the A.A. prayer, "Thy will be done."
Finally, "Forgive us our debts" or "trespasses" clearly implies that God can and will "forgive;" and these concepts can be found in the Big Book, whether they came from the Lord's prayer or from other Biblical sources such as the Book of James.
The Full Sermon on the Mount-Matthew Chapters 5-7
Dr. Bob studied a book by E. Stanley Jones, which outlined the Sermon's contents in this fashion:
1. The goal of life: To be perfect or complete as the Father in heaven is perfect or complete (5:48) with twenty-seven marks of this perfect life (5:1-47).
2. A diagnosis of the reason why men do not reach or move on to that goal: Divided personality (6:1-6; 7:1-6).
3. The Divine offer of an adequate moral and spiritual re-enforcement so that men can move on to that goal: The Holy Spirit to them that ask him (7:7-11).
4. After making the Divine offer he gathers up and emphasizes in two sentences our part in reaching that goal. Toward others-we are to do unto others as we would that they should do unto us (7:12); toward ourselves-we are to lose ourselves by entering the straight gate (7:13).
5. The test of whether we are moving on to that goal, or whether this Divine Life is operative within us: By their fruits (7:15-23).
6. The survival value of this new life and the lack of survival value of life lived in any other way: The house founded on rock and the house founded on sand (7:24-27).
We will review Jesus's Sermon chapter by chapter to locate some principal thoughts that Dr. Bob and Bill may have had in mind when they each said A.A. embodied the philosophy of the Sermon.
Matthew Chapter 5
1. The Beatitudes. The Beatitudes are found in Matthew 5:3-11. The word "beatitudes" refers to the first word "Blessed" in each of these verses. Merriam-Webster's says "blessed" means "enjoying the bliss of heaven." The word in the Greek New Testament from which "blessed" was translated means, "happy," according Biblical scholar Ethelbert Bullinger. Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words explains the word "blessed" as follows: "In the beatitudes the Lord indicates not only the characters that are blessed, but the nature of that which is the highest good." Dr. Bob's wife Anne Smith described the Beatitudes in the Sermon on the Mount as "the Christ-like virtues to be cultivated" (Dick B., Anne Smith's Journal, p. 135).
We have italicized Webster's definitions for the key words in each "beatitude" verse, quoting also the King James Version, which was the version Dr. Bob and early AAs most used. As the verses appear, they say: "Blessed" are: (v. 3) the poor (humble) in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven; (v. 4) they that mourn (feel or express grief or sorrow): for they shall be comforted; (v. 5) the meek (enduring injury with patience and without resentment); for they shall inherit the earth; (v. 6) they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness (acting in accord with divine or moral law): for they shall be filled; (v. 7) the merciful (compassionate): for they shall obtain mercy; (v. :cool: the pure (spotless, stainless) in heart: for they shall see God; (v. 9) the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God; (v. 10) they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven; (v. 11) ye when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake (end or purpose): for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
Did Dr. Bob, Anne, Bill, or Henrietta Seiberling study and draw on these Beatitude verses for A.A.'s recovery program purposes? We can't document an answer. But we do see some ideas common to A.A.'s spiritual principles in the foregoing ideas: (1) Humility; (2) Comfort for the suffering; (3) Patience and tolerance to the end of eliminating resentment; (4) Harmonizing actions with God's will; (5) Compassion, which Webster defines as "sympathetic consciousness of others' distress together with a desire to alleviate;" (6) "Cleaning house;" (7) Making peace; (8) Standing for and acting upon spiritual principles because they are God's principles, whatever the cost. The foregoing Twelve Step ideas can be found in the Beatitudes; and A.A. founders probably saw them too.
2. Letting your light shine. Matthew 5:13-16 suggest glorifying your Heavenly Father by letting others see your good works. That is, "Letting your light shine" does not mean glorifying yourself, but rather glorifying God by letting others see the spiritual walk in action-see the immediate results of surrender to the Master. These ideas may be reflected in the Big Book's statement: "Our real purpose is to fit ourselves to be of maximum service to God . . ." (p. 77).
3. Obeying the Ten Commandments. In Matthew 5:17-21, Jesus reiterates the importance obeying the law and the prophet, specifically referring to Exodus 20:13 {Thou shalt not kill), but clearly referring to the other important commandments such as having no other god but Jehovah (Exodus 20:2-3), worshiping no other god (Exodus 20:4-5), not committing adultery (Exodus 20:14), not stealing (Exodus 20:15), and so on. And wherever these commandments may have fallen between the cracks in today's A.A., they very clearly governed the moral standards of early A.A. that Dr. Bob and the Akron AAs shot for. The Ten Commandments were part of early A.A. pamphlets and literature, and Dr. Bob and the Akron AAs would have nothing to do with a man who was committing adultery.
4. The Law of Love in action. In Matthew 5:17-47, Jesus confirms that the Law of Love fulfills the Old Testament Law. He rejects anger without cause, unresolved wrongs to a brother, quibbling with an adversary, lust and impurity, adultery, retaliation, and hatred of an enemy. Our title The Oxford Group & Alcoholics Anonymous covers many of these ideas as roots of A.A. principles. And the foregoing verses in Matthew 5 may very well have influenced A.A. language about: (1) Overcoming resentments; (2) Making restitution; (3) Avoidance of retaliation for wrongdoing by others; and (4) Making peace with our enemies.
Matthew Chapter 6
1. Anonymity. Matthew 6:1-8, 16-18, dealing with almsgiving "in secret," praying "in secret," fasting "in secret," avoidance of "vain repetitions," and hypocrisy very possibly played a role in the development of A.A.'s spiritual principle of anonymity. Jesus said, "your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him" and "thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly." The vain practices Jesus condemned focused on inflation of ego and self-something A.A. disdains. We have located no direct tie between the teachings of Jesus on anonymity and A.A.'s traditions on this spiritual principle. But the concepts are parallel; and The Runner's Bible and other A.A. biblical sources discuss their significance at some length.
2. Forgiveness. Matthew 6:14-15 stressed forgiving men their trespasses; and Emmet Fox's forceful writing about these verses may well have influenced the A.A. amends process. Fox said:
The forgiveness of sins is the central problem of life. . . . It is, of course, rooted in selfishness. . . . We must positively and definitely extend forgiveness to everyone to whom it is possible that we can owe forgiveness, namely, to anyone who we think can have injured us in any way. . . . When you hold resentment against anyone, you are bound to that person by a cosmic link, a real, tough metal chain. You are tied by a cosmic tie to the thing that you hate. The one person perhaps in the whole world whom you most dislike is the very one to whom you are attaching yourself by a hook that is stronger than steel (Fox, The Sermon on the Mount, pp. 183-88).
Did Fox's writing on this point influence the Big Book's emphasis on forgiveness? We do not know. But at least two writers on A.A. history have claimed that Fox's writings influenced Bill Wilson. Other writers that were read by AAs used language similar to that used by Fox in his discussion of forgiveness of enemies. And the Sermon on the Mount is not the only place in the New Testament where forgiveness is stressed. Thus, after Christ had accomplished remission of past sins, Paul wrote in Colossians 3:13:
Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
Henrietta Seiberling taught her children 1 John 4:20:
If a man say I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen.
In any event, the Big Book states at page 77:
The question of how to approach the man we hated will arise. It may be he has done us more harm than we have done him and, though we may have acquired a better attitude toward him, we are still not too keen about admitting our faults. Nevertheless, with a person we dislike, we take the bit in our teeth. It is harder to go to an enemy than to a friend, but we find it more beneficial to us. We go to him in a helpful and forgiving spirit, confessing our former ill feeling and expressing our regret. Under no condition do we criticize such a person or argue. Simply we tell him that we will never get over drinking until we have done our utmost to straighten out the past (italics added).
3. The "sunlight of the Spirit?" Speaking of the futility and unhappiness in a life which includes deep resentment, the Big Book states: "when harboring such feelings we shut ourselves off from the sunlight of the Spirit." One often hears this "sunlight" expression quoted in A.A. meetings. Yet its origins seem unreported and undocumented. Anne Smith referred frequently in her journal to the verses in 1 John which had to do with fellowship with God and walking in the light as God is light. So did A.A.'s Oxford Group sources. And the following are the most frequently quoted verses from 1 John having to do with God as "light" and the importance of walking in the light to have fellowship with Him:
That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son, Jesus Christ. And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full. This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin (1 John 1:3-7).
We are dealing, in this portion, with the Sermon on the Mount. But we also mention the foregoing verses from 1 John 1:3-7 (having to do with walking in God's light as against walking in darkness). We believe the ideas in 1 John, together with the following verses in the Sermon, may possibly have given rise to Bill's references to the alcoholic's being blocked from the "sunlight of the Spirit" when he or she dwells in such dark realms as excessive anger. Matthew 6:22-24 state:
The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light. But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness! No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
4. Seek ye first the kingdom of God. Matthew 6:24-34 seem to have had tremendous influence on A.A. The substance of these verses is that man will be taken care of when he seeks first the kingdom of God and His righteousness. Verse 33 says:
But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things [food, clothing, and shelter] shall be added unto you.
Dr. Bob specifically explained the A.A. slogans "Easy Does It" and "First Things First." (DR. BOB and the Good Oldtimers, pp 135, 144). When he was asked the meaning of "First Things First," he replied, "Seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added unto you." He told his sponsee Clarence S. that "First Things First" came from Matthew 6:33 in the Sermon on the Mount. And this verse was widely quoted in the books that Dr. Bob and the Akron AAs read and recommended (Dick B., The Good Book and The Big Book, p. 125, n.119)
On page 60, the Big Book states the A.A. solution to obtaining relief from alcoholism: "God could and would if He were sought." This concept of "seeking" results by reliance on God instead of reliance on self is a bedrock idea in the Big Book (See pp. 11, 14, 25, 28, 43, 52-53, 57, 62, 28). And we believe the concept was much influenced by the "seeking the kingdom of God first" idea in Matthew 6:33.
Matthew Chapter 7
1. Taking your own inventory. Much of A.A.'s Fourth, Ninth, Tenth, and Eleventh Step procedures involve looking for your own part, for your own fault, in the house-cleaning and life-changing process which, in Appendix II of the Third Edition of the Big Book, became described as "the personality change sufficient to bring about recovery from alcoholism" (Big Book, p. 569). Matthew 7:3-5 states:
And why beholdest thou the mote [speck] that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam [log] that is in thine own eye?
Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull the mote [speck] out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam [log] is in thine own eye.
Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam [log] out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote [speck] out of thy brother's eye.
These verses were frequently cited by A.A.'s spiritual sources as Biblical authority for the requirement of self-examination and finding one's own part, one's own erroneous conduct, in a relationship problem.
2. Ask, seek, knock. Matthew 7:7-11 states:
Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you;
For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
A.A.'s great spiritual teacher, Rev. Sam Shoemaker wrote:
Our part [in the crisis of self-surrender] is to ask, to seek, to knock. His [God's] part is to answer, to come, to open (Shoemaker, Realizing Religion, p. 32).
The Runner's Bible (one of the major early A.A. devotionals) has an entire chapter titled, "Ask and Ye shall receive." Another, My Utmost for His Highest, says, about these verses beginning with Matthew 7:7
The illustration of prayer that Our Lord uses here is that of a good child asking for a good thing. . . . It is no use praying unless we are living as children of God. Then, Jesus says-"Everyone that asketh receiveth."
The foregoing verses indicate the importance of becoming a child of God, establishing a harmonious relationship with Him, and then expecting good results from the Father. We believe those verses influenced the following similar ideas in the Big Book:
If what we have learned and felt and seen means anything at all, it means that all of us, whatever our race, creed, or color are the children of a living Creator with whom we may form a relationship upon simple and understandable terms as soon as we are willing and honest enough to try (p. 28).
God will constantly disclose more to you and to us. Ask Him in your morning meditation what you can do each day for the man who is still sick. The answers will come, if your own house is in order. But obviously you cannot transmit something you haven't got. See to it that your relationship with Him is right, and great events will come to pass for you and countless others. This is the Great Fact for us (p. 164, italics added).
In this same vein, Dr. Bob's wife, Anne, had written in the spiritual journal she shared with early Aas and their families:
We can't give away what we haven't got. We must have a genuine contact with God in our present experience. Not an experience of the past, but an experience in the present-actual, genuine (Dick B., Anne Smith's Journal, p. 121)
3. "Do unto others." The so-called "Golden Rule" cannot readily be identified in the Big Book though it certainly is a much-quoted portion of the Sermon on the Mount which Bill and Dr. Bob said underlies A.A.'s philosophy. The relevant verse is Matthew 7:12:
Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
Perhaps the following two segments from the Big Book bespeak the philosophy:
We have begun to learn tolerance, patience and good will toward all men, even our enemies, for we look on them as sick people. We have listed the people we have hurt by our conduct, and are willing to straighten out the past if we can (p. 70).
Then you will know what it means to give of yourself that others may survive and rediscover life. You will learn the full meaning of "Love thy neighbor as thyself" (p. 153).
4. He that doeth the will of my Father. There are several key verses in the sermon on the mount which may have caused Bob and Bill to say that the sermon contained A.A.'s underlying philosophy. They are the Lord's Prayer itself (Matthew 6:9-13), the so-called Golden Rule (Matthew 7:12), and the phrase "Thy will be done" (Matthew 6:10). However, the bottom line-the major thinking--in terms of what A.A. seems to have borrowed from the Sermon on the Mount, can be found in Matthew 7:21:
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Bill Wilson made the major point in the Big Book and in his other writings that the key to success in A.A. was doing the will of the Father-the Father Who is the subject of the Lord's Prayer, and the God upon whom early AAs depended. Wilson wrote:
I was to sit quietly when in doubt, asking only for direction and strength to meet my problems as He would have me (Bill's Story, Big Book, p. 13).
He humbly offered himself to his Maker-then he knew (Big Book, p. 57).
. . . praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out (Step Eleven, Big Book, p. 59).
May I do Thy will always (portion of "Third Step Prayer," Big Book, p. 63)!
Thy will be done (Big Book, pp. 67, 88).
Grant me strength, as I go out from here, to do your bidding. Amen (portion of "Seventh Step Prayer," Big Book, p. 76).
There is God, our Father, who very simply says, "I am waiting for you to do my will" (Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age, p. 105).
http://www.mental-health-matters.com/ar ... p?artID=41 (http://www.mental-health-matters.com/articles/article.php?artID=41)
Post by: Froderik on November 23, 2004, 01:48:00 PM
Post by: Cleopatra2U on November 23, 2004, 02:45:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-11-23 10:48:00, froderik13 wrote:
"I heard that AA can be a great place to pick up hot chicks...any truth to that?"
Nah, froderik, most hot chicks I know go to bars... :razz:
Post by: Froderik on November 23, 2004, 03:25:00 PM
Post by: RTP2003 on November 23, 2004, 03:30:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-11-23 10:09:00, Anonymous wrote:
"A.A.'s Bible roots are as numerous and varied as the A.A. sources that used them. ...........
There is God, our Father, who very simply says, "I am waiting for you to do my will" (Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age, p. 105).
http://www.mental-health-matters.com/ar ... p?artID=41 (http://www.mental-health-matters.com/articles/article.php?artID=41)
"
Thanks for the mile-long cut-and-paste religious Stepcult propaganda, asshole. See you in Hell.
Post by: RTP2003 on November 23, 2004, 03:31:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-11-23 12:25:00, froderik13 wrote:
"And then don't some of them become 'alcoholics' and end up in AA? :razz:
Post by: Anonymous on November 23, 2004, 03:34:00 PM
And maybe that person who posted that really long and tiresome and pointless post goes to A.A. meetings with the other fucking losers who go there, maybe this person is court ordered there. This person probly keeps their little fucking A.A. chips with them and shows them off, or they wear that stupid little A.A. gold necklace they paid way too much for. What a fucking loser, and you can't type worth a shit either. You should kill yourself now and save yourself some of the trouble that is in store for you. If you kill yourself now that A.A. necklace you wasted your money on could be refunded or given to some other poke whose life is useless, too.
Post by: Froderik on November 23, 2004, 03:57:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on November 23, 2004, 04:13:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-11-23 12:34:00, Anonymous wrote:
"So like that really long post was obviously from someone IN A.A., right? It's probably written by someone who has a very few years of sobriety under their belt - as if sobriety is hard to attain if you want it or something dumb like that because sobriety is much more to them than a habit - he/she has to analyze sobriety and link it up with an EVEN MORE lame and useless book like the bible and shit because actually they're life is devoid of anything meaningful.
And maybe that person who posted that really long and tiresome and pointless post goes to A.A. meetings with the other fucking losers who go there, maybe this person is court ordered there. This person probly keeps their little fucking A.A. chips with them and shows them off, or they wear that stupid little A.A. gold necklace they paid way too much for. What a fucking loser, and you can't type worth a shit either. You should kill yourself now and save yourself some of the trouble that is in store for you. If you kill yourself now that A.A. necklace you wasted your money on could be refunded or given to some other poke whose life is useless, too.
"
Or maybe... Not. Dun Dun DuN!! :lol:
Post by: Anonymous on November 23, 2004, 05:13:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on November 23, 2004, 05:22:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on November 23, 2004, 10:18:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on November 23, 2004, 11:29:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-11-23 14:33:00, artman11111 wrote:
"Not sure where you go to meetings or even if you do.Noone ever told me i was powerless,nor has anyone "diagnosed " me in any way
Perhaps you just havent arrived at the place where you are ready to deal with this.Perhaps you havent any problems at all.. Its not for me or anyone else to say .. its an inside job...
if you have been asked to attend meetings,or believe you need help.. then maybe you should look at why...
if you have a problem with drugs or booze.. there is a solution.
its not for those who need it... only for those who want it.For them its attainable
bless you
art"
Post by: Anonymous on November 24, 2004, 12:11:00 AM
Post by: Tony Stark on November 24, 2004, 01:35:00 AM
Age is mind over matter. If you don't mind...it doesn't matter!
-- Chuck Gauran
Post by: Anonymous on November 24, 2004, 02:43:00 AM
"if you have a problem with drugs or booze.. there is a solution.
its not for those who need it... only for those who want it.For them its attainable
bless you."
This is the exact bullshit that I am talkin about. If someone is addicted physically to alcohol and drugs - that's one thing. If it is a negative habit, that's another. But, either way you are saying that the person is not in control, based on the shit that A.A. spews, when you say words like 'Problem'. How the fuck is ANY problem out of someone's control unless they're dead or insane? The solution, Artman, is this: if drugs and booze and shit ARE a problem for you or anyone then the solution is not to do it. If you keep doing it and you know its bad for you, well then what is the fucking mystery here? 'Come to AA and discover the mystery'. I get more spiritality from watching X Files than I do at an A.A. meeting with cult thinkers. To say that some external force outside my own body would have more control over my mental and autonomous actions such as picking up a bottle that I unscrewed the cap off of - says that you're whacked and you REALLY do have PROBLEMS, but its not from the drink.
I think Froderik always has a way of putting things in perspective. Since A.A. is inherently useless and benign, well I guess it serves some useful purpose like finding hot chicks to play hide the sausage. rite on fosho.
A.A. free.
Post by: Anonymous on November 24, 2004, 08:03:00 AM
Post by: Tony Stark on November 24, 2004, 08:07:00 AM
Men seldom, or rather never for a length of time, and deliberately, rebel against anything that does not deserve rebelling against.
--Thomas Carlyle
Post by: Anonymous on November 24, 2004, 09:30:00 AM
Quote
Perhaps you just havent arrived at the place where you are ready to deal with this.
Quote
its not for those who need it... only for those who want it.
These are some of the typical stock responses. If someone doesn't agree with AA then that poor soul just isn't as enlightened as the AAer. :roll:
Post by: Anonymous on November 24, 2004, 10:04:00 AM
This forum,and the participants are almost as nasty and mean as the Elan people.I no longer go there.I just responded to a post that i felt strongly about.you can go back to your nasty forums and i will just smile alot,as i read your posts.
god bless
art
Post by: Anonymous on November 24, 2004, 10:35:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on November 24, 2004, 10:42:00 AM
Post by: Dr Fucktard on November 24, 2004, 01:01:00 PM
Quote
Hey, a hot chick is a hot chick, 'tard or not...
Very well said, my good man! There's a lot to be said for women of the "tard" variety..
Post by: Tony Stark on November 24, 2004, 02:52:00 PM
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
-- Robert Heinlein
I am glad I am a man.
_________________
"This is a Republic"-VA Man.
Post by: Scarstruck on November 24, 2004, 03:02:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-11-16 16:14:00, Sara-1984 wrote:
"My biggest problem is with the first few words of the first step of AA, or Straight, or LIFE or whatever:
"Admit we are powerless...."Sheer Bullshit!!!
:roll: "
I concur.
Post by: Anonymous on November 24, 2004, 03:28:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-11-24 08:13:00, artman11111 wrote:
"as one of the many anon trolls,
I apologize for the baghead Art, you and I have debated before and it has not gotten into personal attacks. For the purposes of this thread I'll be ANON X.
Quote
I can tollerate disagreeing with someone.What i wont tollerate is the bashing of a program that has done more for me than i could ever have done for myself.
By the same token I won't tolerate people extolling the virtues of a program I think is highly ineffectual and dangerous to the psyche.
This could be a useful discussion for both of us. Ignore the posts like "AA is gay" and just pay attention to the people who AREN'T bashing but actually debating.
Anon X
Post by: Anonymous on November 27, 2004, 12:11:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-11-23 23:43:00, Anonymous wrote:
" I get more spiritality from watching X Files than I do at an A.A. meeting with cult thinkers.
It's true...... :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Post by: animals all of us on November 27, 2004, 01:52:00 PM
"Millions of people recovering cant all be wrong."
Now, I don't get along with GregFL, but I think he said it best about religions and group think - concerning what you had posted Artman. He basically stated, in a different post, that EVERY religion is life changing. Therefore, I agree with you Artman - that millions of people ARE recovering in AA. But likewise, MILLIONS of people ARE also improving and recovering themselves in things like returning to church, or taking up a hobby that relieves stress instead of picking up their habitual bottle, they are maybe seeking counseling, or learning ways to heal the past or warm up and become intimate with an old loved one, or just enjoying a desired book that may change their viewpoints, YOU name it.
I fucking get it, OKAY?!? I get it. A.A. works for you, you are with them and they are with you and all that this entails the whole shabang including group speak and cliques. I get it, and what you are doing is worthwhile. As you're AA group might coin a phrase - I think its appropriate here - "there are two sides to every story". Generally if you want others to agree with you in a debate the skill to use is not aggression but aquiescence, meaning that you listen and seek to understand first - and only then it is more safe to expect to be listened to.
I personally don't care for what you have to say about AA and its meetings. And I sure as hell won't listen to you if you can't listen first. Five or more people have told you the same thing and you still don't listen. They are saying that A.A. is good as a means to get you where you need to go, but it is NOT the End All Be All of anything at all. You are you, you are not AA. It is your habit and your god, not AA's.
Also, you keep saying you are entirely done here and you won't come back to this forum but I have a sense you will read this soon and that you will comment.
Be well.
Post by: Anonymous on November 27, 2004, 04:08:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on November 27, 2004, 08:20:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on November 27, 2004, 09:07:00 PM
I think animals has a perfect point about Artman being full of himself with this whole A.A. bit. Fortunately it's just a trend.
Enjoy. Oh, and anonymous - do keep taking your meds.
Post by: Anonymous on November 27, 2004, 09:40:00 PM
Now be a Good boy Animal, thats a nice calm animal...good boy...(distract him with the raw meat while I get the noose around his neck)
Post by: Scarstruck on November 29, 2004, 01:11:00 AM
Quote
On 2004-11-27 18:40:00, Anonymous wrote:
"of course you agree with him...he is you. We pretty much got you figured out there animal/et al.
Now be a Good boy Animal, thats a nice calm animal...good boy...(distract him with the raw meat while I get the noose around his neck)"
Been brainwashed much , fucko?
Post by: Carmel on November 29, 2004, 09:25:00 AM
Remember...."aquiesence, not aggression".
I am counting the moments until the whole "gaping pussy" act starts up here.
For the most part we inherit our opinions. We are the heirs of habits and mental customs. Our beliefs, like the fashion of our garments, depend on where we were born. We are molded and fashioned by our surroundings.
--Environment is a sculptor -- a painter.
Post by: Carmel on November 29, 2004, 09:30:00 AM
Quote
"Generally if you want others to agree with you in a debate the skill to use is not aggression but aquiescence, meaning that you listen and seek to understand first - and only then it is more safe to expect to be listened to."
"And I sure as hell won't listen to you if you can't listen first."
Do as I say and not as I do? This is great stuff.
Hats off to you Animals, or to me....or wait, you first then me....
Hold on, my friends, to the Constitution and to the Republic[ This Message was edited by: Carmel on 2004-11-29 06:32 ]
for which it stands. Miracles do not cluster, and what has
happened once in 6000 years, may not happen again. Hold on to
the Constitution, for if the American Constitution should fail,
there will be anarchy throughout the world.
Daniel Webster
Post by: Froderik on November 29, 2004, 09:38:00 AM
Quote
I am counting the moments until the whole "gaping pussy" act starts up here.
Me too.. :wink:
Post by: Anonymous on November 29, 2004, 01:29:00 PM
I also had a very strong emotional response when I read this by Artman. I know he picked this up in AA, but there are some things about it that are very disturbing.
It sounds as though it doesn't matter what you need in terms of recovery or how you feel about AA, that AA is basically beyond reproach. It is beyond comprehension and beyond fault. Nevermind the fact that each group is different and is comprised of different people. Nevermind that there are people there who take advantage of others because they are sick and find people there sicker than they are.
Behind this statement is the idea that you can't trust yourself. If you feel uncomfortable, it is because you mind is too limited to see the big picture. It is because you aren't really sober, but only dry. It is because you are being into self.
I think this is why people reacted this way to this statement.
AA uses: don't trust yourself, trust us, do as we say, not as you want, because you are not good.
Other people find the opposite to be more helpful.
But, the first group of people think that trusting themselves means they will drink....
well if you think this, then you you should go to AA, BUT if you don't then you might be able to stop without it.
It just follows logically....
Post by: Troubled Turd on November 29, 2004, 02:22:00 PM
Post by: RTP2003 on November 29, 2004, 04:28:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-11-29 11:07:00, artman11111 wrote:
You people are sick,
At least I'm not "powerless over drugs/alcohol".
Typical Stepcultspeak; We point out the absolutely bullshit fallacies that the Stepcult promotes, and then some cult-indoctrinated cretin has to throw out shit like that. Go talk to your sponsor, asshole. I'm gonna go have a beer and a couple of tokes.
Keep working those Steps, dipshit. Maybe you'll recieve the "Gift of Awareness" one day and will realize how much you've been duped by the bullshit religious cult that is AA/NA.
Post by: Anonymous on November 29, 2004, 06:18:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-11-29 11:07:00, artman11111 wrote:
"I do read some of the goings on here but i no longre have a commment to add.
You people are sick,and i refuse to be a part of this or any other discussion here at fornits.
All my best and god bless
art"
Ill be praying for you Art. I sincerely hope that one day you see that you are stronger and wiser than you have ever known.
Post by: mental torture made me li on November 29, 2004, 08:15:00 PM
Post by: Scarstruck on November 30, 2004, 10:05:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on December 01, 2004, 10:53:00 AM
Quote
On 2004-12-01 07:28:00, artman11111 wrote:
"
However typical of "fornits".,you are a very disturbed individual.I feel sorry for you but you havent angered me.You have only showed everyone here how sick you really are.
Bless you
art"
I don't think that is a fair statement. Sure there is a handfull of sick and mentally ill people,and also some very angry persons who misdirect their anger.
But fornits as a whole has a lot of really good people. Ignore the trolls, animals and scarstruck, and the various spewing anons and you will find this to be so.
Post by: Anonymous on December 01, 2004, 11:02:00 AM
Quote
On 2004-12-01 07:28:00, artman11111 wrote:
"Fully expected a response like that,Obviously you have issues yourself.I havent used any language that is foul.Havent tried to be insulting.Only stated my position.Whether you agree or not is no matter.
However typical of "fornits".,you are a very disturbed individual.I feel sorry for you but you havent angered me.You have only showed everyone here how sick you really are.
The common denominator (as i see it) is that we were all imprisoned in treatment centers and abused.This is sad for all of us.Where we collectively choose to go is up to the individual.
I hope one day you figure out that your being a putz,only disables your ability to move on.But whatever,you can be a jerk any time you like.I dont mind laughing at you at all.
Bless you
art"
Art you're choosing to respond only to the people who are trying to bait you. Why not ignore them and discuss the issue with those of us who are not being assholes. There are legitimate points to be made here and you seem to ignore those and go after the shit that's easy to discredit.
Post by: RTP2003 on December 01, 2004, 11:31:00 AM
Quote
On 2004-12-01 07:28:00, artman11111 wrote:
"Fully expected a response like that,Obviously you have issues yourself.I havent used any language that is foul.Havent tried to be insulting.Only stated my position.Whether you agree or not is no matter.
You WERE being insulting, Art. I believe you made a blanket statement referring to Stepcult unbelievers as "sick". When a few of us gave intelligent, thoughtful reasons for our opposition to the Stepcult, you fell back into Cultspeak and could or would not respond in an intelligent, thoughtful manner. In case you haven't figured it out, many people here, myself included, not only disagree with but actively oppose the dangerous Cult with which you are so proudly affilliated.
Quote
However typical of "fornits".,you are a very disturbed individual.I feel sorry for you but you havent angered me.You have only showed everyone here how sick you really are.
How typical of a Stepcult groupster---those of us that won't "do it the NA/AA way" are sick, disturbed individuals who haven't seen the light of the Steps. Either that or we are "constitutionally incapable" of being "honest". More of the psychobabble nonsense that flows from AA/NA like so much diarrhetic effluvia.
Quote
The common denominator (as i see it) is that we were all imprisoned in treatment centers and abused.This is sad for all of us.Where we collectively choose to go is up to the individual.
Yes, and those treatment centers were part and parcel of the "recovery group" movement. Stepcraft is Stepcraft, whether it's force-fed to you at Straight or whether it's done in the AA meeting. These are dangerous mindfuck cults that disgust me. The fact that you embrace these would-be tyrant nutcases disgusts me also.
Quote
I hope one day you figure out that your being a putz,only disables your ability to move on.But whatever,you can be a jerk any time you like.I dont mind laughing at you at all.
Bless you
art"
Again, Art, you label all who have resisted Stepcult indoctrination and warn others of the dangers with an insulting term. Not once have you been able to give an intelligent response to the many points brought up in this thread about the useless (at best) or dangerous (at worst) aspects of the Stepcult, such as the fallacy of "powerlessness", the mind-control games inherent in the Sponsor/sponsee relationship, the dangerous notion of "hitting bottom", or any of the many other self-contradictory beliefs that the Stepcult demands of it's followers. Go ahead and suck Bill W.'s dick for the rest of your "clean and sober" life, Art. You bitch and moan about being insulted here and then you do the same to others that disagree with you. Typical Stepcraft-practicing hypocracy. Take your AA/NA sloganeering bullshit someplace where there is an audience for it. It sure as hell ain't here, 12 Step.
Post by: Dr Fucktard on December 01, 2004, 12:59:00 PM
Quote
Its very hard to seperate who is real,and who is really disturbed here.
Truer words were never spoken! :lol:
Post by: Dr. Miller Newton on December 01, 2004, 01:04:00 PM
Quote
I dont think this place is in my best interest.
We will tell you what is and what isn't in your best interest! :flame:
Welcome to the new, improved, all-ages Straight Incorporated V2.0! Have a seat on front row, Art.
Post by: GregFL on December 01, 2004, 01:05:00 PM
My problem comes from AA's infiltration into the public sector.
Have a few beers and pulled over? Likely you will be forced into "treatment". Caught with a marijuana joint? Likely again to go into 12 step treatment. This is unacceptable.
Ever seen the "sucess rate" of AA, Art? It is in line with the success rate of those that never attend treatment. In other words, it doesn't work for most people. Instead, it takes the blame off the alcohol abuser and assigns it to a non existent disease, and then every relapse is the fault of the "disease", not the lilly livered weak individual that drinks a beer and then finishes off the case. Whos fault is this? Certainly not the beer, and certainly not a disease...it is an inherent weakness in the individual. This same weakling will likely eat all of the potatoe chips and salsa, consume all the pot in the house, and drink all the soda until his poor little tummy aches.
Alcoholics are weak people that obsessively consume alcohol and once sober think the rest of the world has their weakness and needs to join their crusade against alcohol and for AA type treatment..
More bullshit.
I have debated AA cult members in foreign countries telling me all types of AA crap that isn't true...It is a proven disease (it is not), six months after being "sober" your Cells cry out for alcohol (bullshit), and various other myths surrounding their weakness.
If you need a voluntary cult to stay off alcohol, so be it. Coming here and advocating said cult to victims of abusive AA based treatment centers is just setting yourself up for an argument.
Two more guys that think AA is bullshit.
http://www.sho.com/site/ptbs/topics.do?topic=12 (http://www.sho.com/site/ptbs/topics.do?topic=12)
Post by: Anonymous on December 01, 2004, 02:09:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-12-01 09:36:00, artman11111 wrote:
"Many in aa are plenty sick and have twisted the program to fit their perspective agenda's.I have seen this many times myself.I choose not to attend those meetings.For me,thats not AA.
"
I have a question then...how did you know that the people were sick, that those meetings weren't AA? Because if you were able to see that while going to AA, you must be very strong minded. This is what I mean: What about your belief that AA is not for those that need it, but for those that want it? How do you know, how can you trust yourself in knowing what is sick and what is not? How can you be sure they were sick, and how can you know you shouldn't have been less selfish in your dealings with them, rather than just running away? Now I'm not disagreeing with what you thought or your actions, but simply confused on how you were able to come to those conclusions while unable to really trust yourself or your thoughts.
Post by: GregFL on December 01, 2004, 02:19:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-11-23 09:39:00, artman11111 wrote:
I have been going to meetings approx 10 years.With various lengths of time sober(this time just under 3 years)
Damn Art, you are living proof that it DOESN'T work.
Various lengths of time sober in 10 years?Just how many times have you "relapsed" anyway?
People out of AA just call it getting drunk....
To parahprase the statistics quoted on the Penn & Teller show linked to above...It is 5% success rate with or without AA for those attempting to quit drinking.
Why go? Do you enjoy the special language? The hanging around all those losers? The smoke filled rooms? The 'relating' your story in front of other obsessive drunks? The time talking about how powerless you are and how you need a higher power?
B.U.L.L.S.H.I.T.
Post by: Anonymous on December 01, 2004, 02:36:00 PM
Post by: Antigen on December 01, 2004, 06:49:00 PM
Here's a magic talisman, guaranteed to work as well as XA and w/ fewer adverse side effects. Acquire this token, keep it with you always, wear it around your neck or carry it in your pocket. Any way you keep it will work, so long as you believe it will work! If you quit believing it will work, then it won't work any more. It works if you work it, just like AA.
This talisman will never exploit your private pain for personal sadistic satisfaction, never give you bad advice backed by the threat of certain death, insanity or incarceration or any other inanity. It'll just sit quietly "working" as it does to keep you sober and sane w/o asking anything in return.
Don't hate the media. Become the media
--Jello Biafra
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Seed sibling `71 - `80
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.
Post by: mental torture made me li on December 01, 2004, 08:07:00 PM
Post by: animals all of us on December 01, 2004, 09:58:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on December 02, 2004, 10:43:00 AM
Post by: Antigen on December 02, 2004, 10:59:00 AM
Nothing personal, Art. Facts is facts. FWIW, I personally don't think any less of you just because you tie one on once in awhile. Moreover, I think you might find that your life is much improved if, on those occasions, you could skip the death/insanity self bludgeoning trip.
A dictatorship would be a heck of a lot easier, there's no question
about it.
--GW Büsh, Business Week, July 30, 2001
Post by: Anonymous on December 02, 2004, 11:04:00 AM
Quote
On 2004-12-02 07:02:00, artman11111 wrote:
"Greg
But your attitude of attacking me personally has truly shown at least me how small a person you are>(as well as the other children here)What a shame it is to be careening through life with such a miserable attitude matched with such anger.I truly feel sorry for you
god bless
art"
Art, why are you claiming victim status here?
Do you know what a personal attack is even? I have not said one word about you personally and don't know you, only have responded to your posts.
I am debating information you posted, not attacking you. If you want to hang around AA meetings (which are full of losers and smokers BTW), then have at it.
But posting your support of AA on this forum opens you up for counter points, and posting your supposed "success" of multiple relapses (which would be no different if you just used Ginger's magical talisman IMO), opens that up for debate as well.
Learn the rules of a forum if you are going to post to one. If you want to complain about personal attacks, then it would be much more big of you to complain about actual attacks such as occur frequently by this message board's trolls(the ones trying to disrupt anyway), idiots and losers. There are plenty of these idiots and morons here to complain about Art, no need to whine at the people that just disagree with your assessment of AA and question your "success" when you so blazenly post you have relapsed multiple times. By whose account is this a "success"?
I have no bad experience in AA because I have never been and would never go. My only experience with them other than being inprisoned in a AA derivitive cult as a teenager has been debating AA types who always cry foul when the obvious glaring fallicies in their logic is pointed out to them.
Enjoy your cult Art. We will never agree on this topic, and if that feels like an attack to you then so be it. I am certain we will agree on other topics in the future.
Post by: GregFL on December 02, 2004, 11:29:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on December 02, 2004, 11:44:00 AM
Quote
"Again I am sorry for your bad experience. But your attitude of attacking me personally has truly shown at least me how small a person you are"(as well as the other children here)What a shame it is to be careening through life with such a miserable attitude matched with such anger.I truly feel sorry for you"
Beware, glass houses.
Tell you what I think. When it comes to organized emotional support...be it AA or even religion (one in the same), you are gonna get your quacks and losers right up alongside your genuine, hearts-on-fire folks. I have learned to take what I need from each set set of rules or doctrines, and incorporate them into who I am...everday. I dont need a preacher, a sponsor, or a guru. No one else is responsible for me, except me. If I am going to to spiral downward into a drug induced frenzy.....I wont be any more or less worse off when I pick up my boot straps and take care of business in life the next day, so long as I keep trying.
Im sorry but, if you have to reach bottom in order to be ready to change....,,then you are worse enough off that you dont need no stinking group of steppers to figure out how to do so. If your survival instinct does not register anything by that point, well, then chalk it up to natural selection. The same set of ideas cannot possibly be right for everyone.
I was thinking yesterday alot about how arrogant human beings are that they feel so much that they are ENTITLED to well being. It takes work folks, and at the end of the day...all you have left is YOU. This is my beef with admitting I am "powerless".
On the other hand, support is good. Its good to have someone to understand and hold your hand sometimes. But reliance on the support system can very easily replace the addiction. With no better side-effects.
Post by: Carmel on December 02, 2004, 11:44:00 AM
Everything in moderation, including moderation.
Mark Twain
Post by: GregFL on December 02, 2004, 01:50:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-12-02 09:48:00, artman11111 wrote:
All of your AA info (you said you never been to a meeting) is 2nd hand.
Don't forget Art I was imprisoned in a AA derivitive Cult as a teenager and have made it my business to educate myself on what AA is all about. I have "worked my steps" Art. I "Made amends" claimed I needed a "higher power (the group) and all the other nonsense... Not exactly 2nd hand.
Quote
Including but not limited to your statistics on success.I dont believe those stats could be accurately documented as AA is a anon program.
Not my stats Art. Those are internal AA documents from 1989. Still don't believe em? I didn't think so...
Quote
In addition,I think it sucks that many court systems and judges use AA as a babysitting job.
It is much more than that. Terming it "babysitting" when people by the thousands are forced into 12 step based "treatment" when they are not addicted to anything is much more sinister than "babysitting". The 12 step model is perhaps used as a coercive tool and leads to more abusive forced treatment than anything else. Yet it is given automatic legitimacy in our society. Please don't make light of a very serious situation, Art.
Quote
Many of my relapses have been as a direct result of not following the suggestions that people have made,or not being honest with myself and others.
Of course you would say that. AA doctrine suggests that all relapses are because you are powerless and not working your program, and all successes are attributed to the group and/or the higher power. We knew you would say this Art..nothing mind shattering being said here. Don't forget you are talking to a group of ex "steppers".
Quote
You can take your obvious ignorant opinions and banter with someone else.If you havent experienced 1st hand how "horrible" it is... How do you have an opinion??
Ignorant, eh? My my are we getting a little testy here? Hehe...well, I Never said it was horrible Art, just annoying when AA types try to suggest the world is better off because their cult is saving everyone and dangerous and coercive when forced onto society at large
Quote
all my best
Same to you. Enjoy your cult.
Post by: GregFL on December 02, 2004, 02:05:00 PM
Love these topical posts...
"I am now 27 years old, and I struggle still. I have come to realize however, that so much of my struggles have been a direct result of my involvement with 12 step programs. I have watched most of my hard partying friends simply grow up into fairly well adjusted, productive adults. They did this without the help of AA. I often wonder if I had never been involved with the 12-step racket, would I have just grown up. Instead I spent 7 years of my life feeling even more different than the people around me. I felt like I didn't fit in out here, or in the rooms. I am only now beginning to realize that my problem was never with alcohol, my problem was with me, my self esteem...and I am working on overcoming this so I don't turn to drugs and alcohol as a way to act out....
This person, Art, has discovered they are not powerless but instead very powerfull, powerfull enough to recognize a con job and reject it. Unfortunately about 7 years late.......but better late than never.
Post by: Troubled Turd on December 02, 2004, 04:05:00 PM
That AA bullshit jes' don't work, face it! You can lead a horse to water...well, y'all know what I mean...
Post by: RTP2003 on December 02, 2004, 04:21:00 PM
guide for would-be "sponsors", they even tell stepcraft practioners
to encourage drinking/drug use by potential cultists that have not
embraced the fallacious concept of "powerlessness" in hopes that the
person will "hit bottom" and eventually come into the fold. This is
a sick, twisted, and irresponsible tactic that has resulted in the
death of many people. When this occurs, the cultists use the
deceased as an example of what will inevitably occur to those that
don't "do it the NA way". They truly do society, and addicts in
particular, a grave disservice by spreading disinformation on the
nature of addiction and other forms of treatment, the success of
which they routinely deny or disqualify by saying "those people
weren't real addicts".
NA/AA/other forms of stepcraft have all of the earmarks of cults--
Religious orientation; irrationality; rigidity; dogmatism; anti-
intellectualism; a charismatic leader (Bill W[ilson]); a
heirarchical authoritarian structure; submission of the individual
will to "the will of God"; a claim to the ultimate truth; separitism
(us vs. the world mentality); exclusivity (only through us...);self-
absorption (primary focus is on the cult itself); economic
exploitation; going to great lengths to retain members; mind
control techniques; intimidation; manipulation through guilt;
threats of death (Big Book predicts it for dropouts and
nonbelievers); harrassment; deceptive recruiting techniques; closed,
all-encompassing environments (treatment centers where people are
deprived of all non-cult reading material, contact with family or
friends, or telephone access), etc.
The fact that NA/AA has so well infiltrated and subverted legitimate
recovery techniques and methods in the USA( often using the judicial
system to forcibly recruit new members, a flagrant violation of the
US Constitution which has been successfully challenged every time it
has gone to court, thankfully) and other nations has undoubtedly
resulted in the continued suffering and deaths of many unfortunate
addicts who may well have successfully treated their addictions had
other treatment options been known to, or made available to them.
These cult groups are NOT an effective means of treating addiction.
By their own admission, 95% of participants drop out within the
first year, 50% within the first month (1989 AA Triennial Report).
NA/AA/12 Step IS a CULT with no concern for individual addicts, only
for it's own continuation and cancer-like growth. It has portrayed
itself as a benevolent organization that seeks to help addicts, when
in reality it has caused untold suffering to the very groups it
purports to be serving.
Post by: Carmel on December 02, 2004, 04:24:00 PM
Your personal experience with AA, Art....does not qualify you to champion AA's cause like you do. No more than Greg's non-experience may justify him. I think you originally misinterpreted. Its okay to feel good about AA and what it can do for you and others...but it is dangerously naive to refuse to see the dark side of that same system. Its this blind faith that stirs fanaticism (not calling you a fanatic). A state of being not unlike drug or alcohol addiction itself. For many people AA is an emotional switch out for the substance abuse. Being that drugs and alcohol are merely a symptom.....well, taking them away isnt going to rectify the behaviour every time.
Does it not frighten you in the least that you attribute some of your failures to not listening to someone elses idea or message? What about Art's idea or message? I beleive that everything happens for a reason, and if I fall down 2 steps.....I will count myself lucky that it may have saved me from falling down 8 or 9 in the future.
Everything in moderation, including moderation.
Mark Twain
Post by: Anonymous on December 02, 2004, 05:00:00 PM
Art, I've been in and out of AA for the last 20 years. Mostly forced from custody issues by AA Nazis. I've seen good meetings and I've seen horrible meetings. I've met great people and I've met unbelievable assholes. I have plenty of AA experience and my problem is not with the people, it's with the basic fundamentals of the program. It teaches people that they're powerless, it teaches that there's only one way, it teaches that if you don't blindly accept what's being presented to you that you'll end up dying. THAT is what I feel is so destructive.
As to the "success rate" of AA:
Quote
There is a high rate of recovery among alcoholics and addicts, treated and untreated. According to one estimate, heroin addicts break the habit in an average of 11 years. Another estimate is that at least 50% of alcoholics eventually free themselves although only 10% are ever treated. One recent study found that 80% of all alcoholics who recover for a year or more do so on their own, some after being unsuccessfully treated. When a group of these self-treated alcoholics was interviewed, 57% said they simply decided that alcohol was bad for them. Twenty-nine percent said health problems, frightening experiences, accidents, or blackouts persuaded them to quit. Others used such phrases as "Things were building up" or "I was sick and tired of it." Support from a husband or wife was important in sustaining the resolution.
Treatment of Drug Abuse and Addiction -- Part III, The Harvard Mental Health Letter, Volume 12, Number 4, October 1995, page 3.
(See Aug. (Part I), Sept. (Part II), Oct. 1995 (Part III).)
Quote
Spontaneous Remission in Alcoholism
A number of studies have found that a small percentage of alcoholics improve to the point of remission of problems associated with alcohol consumption. Bailey and Stewart (235) interviewed alcoholics after three years without treatment and found that about 27 percent of the former patients denied alcoholism. Cahalan (268) in a national drinking practices study noted that drinking problems decrease in men after age 50 and the amount of alcohol consumed also decreases. Cahalan, Cisin, and Crossley (11) in another national survey of drinking practices found that about one-third more individuals had problem drinking in a period before their three-year study period than during the study period itself, suggesting a tendency toward spontaneous remission of drinking problems. Goodwin, Crane, and Guze (269) found that on an eight-year follow-up with no treatment about 18 percent of the alcoholic felons had been abstinent for at least two years. Lemere (238) reported long-term abstinence in 11 percent of untreated alcoholics over an unspecified interval. Kendall and Staton (236) reported 15 percent abstinence in untreated alcoholics after a seven-year follow-up. Kissin, Platz, and Su (203) reported a 4 percent one-year improvement rate in untreated lower class alcoholics. Imber et al. (10) described a follow-up of 58 alcoholics who received no treatment for their alcoholism. It was noted that the rate of abstinence was 15 percent at one year and 11 percent after three years.
In sum, the preponderance of these studies suggests that a spontaneous remission rate for alcoholism of at least one-year duration is about 4-18 percent. Successful treatment would, therefore, have to produce rates of improvement significantly above this probable range of spontaneous remission.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
10. Imber, S., Schultz, E., Funderburk, F., Allen, R. and Flamer, R. The Fate of the Untreated Alcoholic. J. Nerv and Ment. Dis., 1976, 162:238-247.
11. Cahalan, D., Cisin, I. H. and Crossley, H. M. American Drinking Practices: A National Survey of Drinking Behavior and Attitudes. New Brunswick, Rutgers Center for Alcohol Studies, 1974.
203. Kissin, B., Platz, A. and Su, W. H. Social and Psychological Factors in the Treatment of Chronic Alcoholics. J. Psychiat. Res., 1970, 8:13-27.
235. Bailey, M. B. and Stewart, S. Normal Drinking by Persons Reporting Previous Problem Drinking. Quart. J. Stud. Alc., 1967, 28:305-315.
236. Kendall, R. E. and Staton, M. C. The Fate of Untreated Alcoholics. Quart. J. Stud. Alc., 1966, 27:30-41.
238. Lemere, F. What Happens to Alcoholics. Amer. J. Psychiat., 1953, 109:674-675.
268. Cahalan, D. Problem Drinkers: A National Survey, San Francisco, Jossey-Bass, 1970.
269. Goodwin, W. W., Crane, J. B., and Guze, S. B. Felons Who Drink: An Eight-Year Follow-up. Quart. J. Stud. Alc., 1971, 32:136-147.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Clinical Management of Alcoholism, Sheldon Zimberg, M.D., page 179, footnotes on pages 223 to 234.
Post by: RTP2003 on December 02, 2004, 05:12:00 PM
Although your post was an interesting and informative one, it contains FACTUAL information. This makes it unacceptable reading for the Stepcult members; they have made up their minds to do "the will of Bill W." and don't want to be bothered by the facts.
Post by: Cayo Hueso on December 02, 2004, 05:18:00 PM
Alcoholics Anonymous Comes Of Age, William G. Wilson, (1957), page 370.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
I cannot believe in the immortality of the soul.... No, all this talk of an existence for us, as individuals, beyond the grave is wrong. It is born of our tenacity of life -- our desire to go on living -- our dread of coming to an end.
--Thomas Edison, American inventor
Post by: RTP2003 on December 02, 2004, 05:20:00 PM
Post by: GregFL on December 02, 2004, 05:38:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-12-02 11:55:00, artman11111 wrote:
With your info from 15 years ago and no experience with any AA .... how do you expect me to respond? In addition,I never made any statements like the ones you've written.
You saying AA has changed? Very interesting...My information indicates otherwise. It has always been a loosely watched grouping of independent groups all interpreting the big book. I have studied extensively and read much of the AA bible, debated for hours AA members and watched video presentations of AA meeting in addition to spending 7 months of my life in a aa Cult as a teenager. Call me ignorant all you want.
And as for your statements, they are all direct cut and pastes from your post, Art. How can you say you never made them.
Who you trying to fool here?
Post by: RTP2003 on December 02, 2004, 05:43:00 PM
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Who you trying to fool here?
"
Himself.
Post by: Anonymous on December 02, 2004, 06:11:00 PM
James Frey, Author of A Million Little Pieces, speaking on the ABC News 20/20 TV program, "Help Me, I Can't Help Myself", April 21, 2003.
Post by: GregFL on December 02, 2004, 10:47:00 PM
"
Art, educate yourself to what your cult is up to.
http://www.morerevealed.com/books/coc/chaptr11.htm (http://www.morerevealed.com/books/coc/chaptr11.htm)
Post by: GregFL on December 02, 2004, 11:00:00 PM
here is one rather comic 1960s era study....
A controlled study of the effectiveness of A.A. was conducted in San Diego in the mid-nineteen-sixties. It is described in "A Controlled Experiment on the Use of Court Probation for Drunk Arrests", by Keith S. Ditman, M.D., George C. Crawford, LL.B., Edward W. Forgy, Ph.D., Herbert Moskowitz, Ph.D., and Craig MacAndrew, Ph.D., in the American Journal of Psychiatry.1 In the study, 301 public drunkenness offenders were sentenced by the court to one of three "treatment programs". The offenders were randomly divided into three groups:
a control group that got no treatment at all,
a second group that was sent to a professional alcoholism treatment clinic,
and a third group that was sent to Alcoholics Anonymous.
All of the subjects were followed for at least a full year following conviction. Surprisingly, the no-treatment group did the best, and Alcoholics Anonymous did the worst, far worse than simply receiving no treatment at all. When the rates of re-arrests for drunkenness were calculated, the following results were obtained:
Number of Rearrests Among 241 Offenders in Three Treatment Groups
Treatment Group NO
re-arrests Re-arrested
Once Re-arrested 2
or more times Total
No treatment 32 (44%) 14 (19%) 27 (37%) 73
Professional clinic 26 (32%) 23 (28%) 33 (40%) 82
Alcoholics Anonymous 27 (31%) 19 (22%) 40 (47%) 86
In every category, the people who got no treatment at all fared better than the people who got A.A. "treatment". Based on the records of re-arrests, only 31% of the A.A.-treated clients were deemed successful, while 44% of the "untreated" clients were successful. Clearly, Alcoholics Anonymous "treatment" had a detrimental effect. That means that A.A. had a success rate of less than zero. Not only was A.A.-based treatment a waste of time and money; A.A. was actually making it harder for people to get sober and stay sober.
And the A.A. people got rearrested more often after many months of A.A. training -- not in the beginning. The rate of rearrests was the same for the no-treatment and A.A. groups during the first month of treatment (22%), but increased later, after months of A.A. indoctrination:
Post by: Anonymous on December 02, 2004, 11:03:00 PM
duh
Post by: GregFL on December 02, 2004, 11:05:00 PM
Remember, this is from the horses mouth (or the other end).
"For many years in the 1970s and 1980s, the AA GSO (Alcoholics Anonymous General Service Organization) conducted triennial surveys where they counted their members and asked questions like how long members had been sober. Around 1990, they published a commentary on the surveys: Comments on A.A.'s Triennial Surveys [no author listed, published by Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc., New York, no date (probably 1990)]. The document has an A.A. identification number of "5M/12-90/TC". The document was produced for A.A. internal use only. It has a graph on page 12 (Diagram C-1) that shows that newcomers drop out, relapse, leave, or disappear at a staggeringly high rate.8 Averaging the results from the five surveys from 1977 to 1989 yielded these numbers:
81% are gone (19% remain) after 1 month;
90% are gone (10% remain) after 3 months,
93% are gone (7% remain) after 6 months,
and 95% are gone (5% remain) at the end of one year.
Figure C-1 from page 12 of the Commentary on the Triennial Surveys (from 1977 to 1989), A.A. internal document number 5M/12-90/TC
Also see: Addiction, Change & Choice; The New View of Alcoholism, Vince Fox, M.Ed. CRREd., page 66
That gives A.A. a maximum possible success rate of only 5% (even if you define "success" as staying sober for only one year). That is not what a competent doctor would call good medical treatment. The FDA would never approve a medicine that is only successful on 5% of the patients.
But not even all of those five percent who "Keep Coming Back" for a year are continuously sober. Some of them relapse repeatedly. Those triennial surveys only showed how many people kept coming back to meetings, not how many of them stayed sober for the full year. And then the attrition continues as more and more people leave, year after year. Old-timers with 20 years of sobriety are as rare as hen's teeth. Fewer than one newcomer in a thousand makes it for that long. Such old-timers are treated like visiting royalty when they come to speak at A.A. meetings, just because they are so rare.
Note that we are not told exactly how the GSO decides who is a member. The most likely criterion is the one used by Bill C. in 1965. Charles Bufe pointed out that in a 1965 article in the Quarterly Journal of Studies on Alcohol, Bill C. considered anyone who had attended 10 or more meetings to be a member.5 But that eliminates from the statistics all of those people who came looking for help, and attended a few or several meetings, but who were so put off by the religiosity and cultishness and faith-healing atmosphere that they stopped coming back.
If all of those people were included in the numbers, it would "water down" the claimed retention rate and the claimed success rate to the point where they would be truly pathetic. We would get numbers like, "95% are gone in a month, and 99% are gone in a year."
Actually, the truth might be even worse than that. It seems that the ABC News program 20/20 did a special on recovery that quoted an A.A. spokesman who said that 95% of the newcomers do not even come back for a second meeting.
And also note that the claimed five percent of A.A. newcomers who are still coming back after one year (and sober, we hope) is exactly the same number as the normal rate of spontaneous remission among alcoholics. If we subtract the usual spontaneous remission rate from A.A.'s claimed success rate, we get zero percent for A.A.'s actual effective cure rate. A.A. didn't make anybody quit drinking -- those who quit were the ones who were going to quit anyway. They would have quit anyway, no matter what group they were in, be it the Patty-Cake Treatment Program or the Mickey Mouse Club.
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-eff ... b_memorial (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html#Bob_memorial)
Post by: GregFL on December 02, 2004, 11:10:00 PM
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On 2004-12-02 20:03:00, Anonymous wrote:
" Any program is as GOOD as the person who USES/APPLIES it. The "program" is available tools to use. USE them - tada! Don't? ... oh well.
duh"
ANY PROGRAM? this assumes that all programs are inherently valuable. This is the wrong forum to make that assertion, Anon, because we as a group know first hand that MANY PROGRAMS are worthless or worse, negative. Many such "tools" as you assert are actually cultic tools, behavor madification techniques, or repetitious control designed to condition your mind. Not using them is often the correct path to retain sanity and autonomy.
Thanks for your thought filled comment.
Post by: GregFL on December 02, 2004, 11:18:00 PM
Alcoholics Anonymous Comes Of Age, William G. Wilson, (1957), page 97.
"You have no conception these days of how much failure we had. You had to cull over hundreds of these drunks to get a handful to take the bait."
Bill Wilson, at the memorial service for Dr. Bob, Nov. 15, 1952; file available here.
" During Bill's stay in Akron, he and Bob calculated their success rate to be about 5 percent, and among the few who seemed to catch on, not all of them were able to maintain consistent sobriety. The first edition of AA's Big Book, published in 1939, contains the personal recovery stories of many of AA's earliest members. Some years later, Bill made notations in the first copy of the book to come off the press, indicating which individuals portrayed therein had stayed sober. A good 50 percent of them had not."
Bill W. A Biography of Alcoholics Anonymous Cofounder Bill Wilson, Francis Hartigan, pages 91-92.
Post by: GregFL on December 02, 2004, 11:20:00 PM
" Those who do not recover are those who cannot or will not give themselves completely to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way."
A.A. Big Book, 3rd Edition, William G. Wilson, page 58.
Post by: GregFL on December 02, 2004, 11:23:00 PM
AA is a sham that has resulted in countless cults and abusive drug centers,including the Seed and Straight, Inc. The followers of this cult cannot and will not debate the issues but only cry victim and foul when you bring the facts into their face, at the same time resorting to ad hominems like our buddy Art has been doing.
When I was in the Seed the non members used to shout "The Seed Sucks". this applies as well to the sham scam con known as AA.
Post by: RTP2003 on December 03, 2004, 11:39:00 AM
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On 2004-12-02 20:23:00, GregFL wrote:
"Nuff said for now. I don't know whether to laugh or cry.
AA is a sham that has resulted in countless cults and abusive drug centers,including the Seed and Straight, Inc. The followers of this cult cannot and will not debate the issues but only cry victim and foul when you bring the facts into their face, at the same time resorting to ad hominems like our buddy Art has been doing.
When I was in the Seed the non members used to shout "The Seed Sucks". this applies as well to the sham scam con known as AA.
"
How true. You simply can not get Groupsters to engage in any kind of meaningful discussion or intelligent debate on the subject of their beloved cult. This thread has shown us first hand the ways they will start sloganeering and engaging in Cultspeak as soon as any aspect of the Cult is seriously questioned. I would say that we shouldn't waste our time arguing with Stepcult indoctrinees, but I think it's good that this debate has gone on because it could give someone who was considering AA/NA/other forms of Stepcraft an idea of what these cults are REALLY about---their own cancer-like growth, at the expense of the individuals involved. Thank you, GregFL, for your thorough and insightful debunking of this scam-filled cult and the propaganda they use to recruit the unwary.
Post by: Anonymous on December 03, 2004, 12:41:00 PM
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There is a high rate of recovery among alcoholics and addicts, treated and untreated. According to one estimate, heroin addicts break the habit in an average of 11 years. Another estimate is that at least 50% of alcoholics eventually free themselves although only 10% are ever treated. One recent study found that 80% of all alcoholics who recover for a year or more do so on their own, some after being unsuccessfully treated. When a group of these self-treated alcoholics was interviewed, 57% said they simply decided that alcohol was bad for them. Twenty-nine percent said health problems, frightening experiences, accidents, or blackouts persuaded them to quit. Others used such phrases as "Things were building up" or "I was sick and tired of it." Support from a husband or wife was important in sustaining the resolution.
Treatment of Drug Abuse and Addiction -- Part III, The Harvard Mental Health Letter, Volume 12, Number 4, October 1995, page 3.
(See Aug. (Part I), Sept. (Part II), Oct. 1995 (Part III).)
Quote
Spontaneous Remission in Alcoholism
A number of studies have found that a small percentage of alcoholics improve to the point of remission of problems associated with alcohol consumption. Bailey and Stewart (235) interviewed alcoholics after three years without treatment and found that about 27 percent of the former patients denied alcoholism. Cahalan (268) in a national drinking practices study noted that drinking problems decrease in men after age 50 and the amount of alcohol consumed also decreases. Cahalan, Cisin, and Crossley (11) in another national survey of drinking practices found that about one-third more individuals had problem drinking in a period before their three-year study period than during the study period itself, suggesting a tendency toward spontaneous remission of drinking problems. Goodwin, Crane, and Guze (269) found that on an eight-year follow-up with no treatment about 18 percent of the alcoholic felons had been abstinent for at least two years. Lemere (238) reported long-term abstinence in 11 percent of untreated alcoholics over an unspecified interval. Kendall and Staton (236) reported 15 percent abstinence in untreated alcoholics after a seven-year follow-up. Kissin, Platz, and Su (203) reported a 4 percent one-year improvement rate in untreated lower class alcoholics. Imber et al. (10) described a follow-up of 58 alcoholics who received no treatment for their alcoholism. It was noted that the rate of abstinence was 15 percent at one year and 11 percent after three years.
In sum, the preponderance of these studies suggests that a spontaneous remission rate for alcoholism of at least one-year duration is about 4-18 percent. Successful treatment would, therefore, have to produce rates of improvement significantly above this probable range of spontaneous remission.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
10. Imber, S., Schultz, E., Funderburk, F., Allen, R. and Flamer, R. The Fate of the Untreated Alcoholic. J. Nerv and Ment. Dis., 1976, 162:238-247.
11. Cahalan, D., Cisin, I. H. and Crossley, H. M. American Drinking Practices: A National Survey of Drinking Behavior and Attitudes. New Brunswick, Rutgers Center for Alcohol Studies, 1974.
203. Kissin, B., Platz, A. and Su, W. H. Social and Psychological Factors in the Treatment of Chronic Alcoholics. J. Psychiat. Res., 1970, 8:13-27.
235. Bailey, M. B. and Stewart, S. Normal Drinking by Persons Reporting Previous Problem Drinking. Quart. J. Stud. Alc., 1967, 28:305-315.
236. Kendall, R. E. and Staton, M. C. The Fate of Untreated Alcoholics. Quart. J. Stud. Alc., 1966, 27:30-41.
238. Lemere, F. What Happens to Alcoholics. Amer. J. Psychiat., 1953, 109:674-675.
268. Cahalan, D. Problem Drinkers: A National Survey, San Francisco, Jossey-Bass, 1970.
269. Goodwin, W. W., Crane, J. B., and Guze, S. B. Felons Who Drink: An Eight-Year Follow-up. Quart. J. Stud. Alc., 1971, 32:136-147.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Clinical Management of Alcoholism, Sheldon Zimberg, M.D., page 179, footnotes on pages 223 to 234.
Post by: RTP2003 on December 03, 2004, 12:57:00 PM
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On 2004-12-03 09:29:00, artman11111 wrote:
"you must be very proud of yourself "
Damn right I'm proud of myself---I kicked a six + year heroin addiction, cold turkey, without the use of Stepcraft. In fact, when I mistakenly believed that Stepcraft was "the only way" to get off dope, I actually went to more than a few NA meetings, which generally left me wanting more dope (even if I had already fixed and wasn't dopesick). Yes, I am proud of the fact that I kicked junk, and did it no thanks to your fucking cult. When I believed the propaganda you guys spew, (mainly from my indoctrination at Straight) that "jails, institutions, or death" were the only alternatives to Stepcraft, I pretty much resigned myself to winding up OD'd in some bathroom somewhere. When I encountered alternatives to Stepcraft, I bit the bullet and kicked heroin. Your precious Stepcult and it's lies and disinformation did me NO good at all--and it makes me cringe when I think of the many other, superior forms of addiction treatment that are unknown to most addicts due to the Stepcult's near-monopoly on treatment and it's infiltration of the judicial system. Fuck you and your goddamn cult, Art, it nearly cost me my life believing the bullshit you spout.
Post by: PerfectStraightling on December 03, 2004, 01:57:00 PM
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On 2004-12-02 09:48:00, artman11111 wrote:
"Enjoy your cult ?? yes i take that personally
All of your AA info (you said you never been to a meeting) is 2nd hand.Including but not limited to your statistics on success.I dont believe those stats could be accurately documented as AA is a anon program.
In addition,I think it sucks that many court systems and judges use aa as a babysitting job.I never have nor will i ever sign someones slip. Goes against what i believe.
Lighten up already,.The only thing i support is what it and I have done collectively for myself.
Many of my relapses have been as a direct result of not following the suggestions that people have made,or not being honest with myself and others.Life is alot different these days. I am very grateful for this. I owe alot of my success to some very fine people in this "cult" who have gone out of their way on many occasions to be good to me.
You can take your obvious ignorant opinions and banter with someone else.If you havent experienced 1st hand how "horrible" it is... How do you have an opinion??
Ginger
He only pointed out the obvious; that, unless you consider occasional sobriety to be successful treatment for alcoholism, Art's story demonstrates how AA actually doesn't work.
My many slips have taught me a great deal about myself and how to feel better about myself.. I wouldnt trade it for anything.My life has increased in so many different ways i could be here all day.If what i do isnt working,why am i so happy.Why are so many facets of my life so good today... You have your opinion,I am entitled to the same.. I take great pride in who i am today,it has lots to do with what i do ... AA is not my only solution for recovery,its just been extremely helpful. Therefore when you talk of "occasional sobriety" i find that an insult to both me and the millions who are sober today because of AA groups
I do agree that the self bludgening that i used to do was harmful...AA... Real AA doesnt shoot their wounded... At least not at any of the meetings i attend...
all my best
art
"
So, you are able to differentiate between which groups are good and which ones are bad (ie you trust your own judment), and not feel guilty about relapsing (ie you dont think you're a selfish person who then has NO days of sobriey, even though you didn't drink for X years), the groups you go to don't shame the people that make mistakes (don't call them selfish and self-centered for doing so)...doesn't really sound like AA to me.
Post by: ehm on December 03, 2004, 02:41:00 PM
Post by: Cleopatra2U on December 03, 2004, 06:26:00 PM
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On 2004-11-24 08:13:00, artman11111 wrote:
"The solution lies in my not attending these forums here at fornits.I have out grown it and it serves no useful purpose in my life today."
...
"i have grown bored of you and of this useless banter at fornits"
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On 2004-11-29 11:07:00, artman11111 wrote:
"I do read some of the goings on here but i no longre have a commment to add.
You people are sick,and i refuse to be a part of this or any other discussion here at fornits."
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On 2004-12-01 09:36:00, artman11111 wrote:
"I dont believe its in mine or anyone's best interest to attend here,though i must say,some people here are great for a laugh,and though I often dont care for what i read here,i keep comin to fornits. Maybe its me who is sick !"
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On 2004-12-01 09:41:00, artman11111 wrote:
"I dont think this place is in my best interest."
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On 2004-12-02 11:55:00, artman11111 wrote:
"I think i am done here... This serves no purpose..."
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On 2004-12-03 11:59:00, artman11111 wrote:
"i wont be coming here anymore... theres nothing to discuss."
I don't know you, Art, and I hope you won't take me using your quotes as a personal attack, but rather as an illustration of how AA's "keep coming back" philosophy can be detrimental. You must realize that many, if not most, of the people who post here do not share your opinion of AA. This seems to frustrate you, and yet you "keep coming back" despite yourself. It is a vicious cycle... Reminiscient of the alcoholic who keeps returning to drink even though he knows it is bad for him... And of the 12-stepper who keeps returning to the program even though it is no longer doing him any good...
If you don't like something, stay away from it. If a 12-step program helps you stay away from that something, great. But know that a 12-step program could very well be that something that you need to stay away from... Especially if your feelings about that program are anything like your feelings about Fornits.
Post by: Anonymous on December 03, 2004, 06:30:00 PM
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On 2004-12-03 11:59:00, artman11111 wrote:
"I am not interested in responding to things i know nothing about.
I have no record of statistics,nor do i care.
many of you seem so hell bent on my opinions.Some of you are really whacked... i wont be coming here anymore... theres nothing to discuss.
Never get into a pissin match with a skunk
"
Art!!! Do you realize the absurdity of this statement??????? You're saying you don't know anything about these points that have been raised and you have no interest in learning? You state "I have no record of statistics, nor do I care". You cared enough to post that "millions of people can't be wrong". Now when that is proven to be a falsehood you suddenly don't care about them?????
That's basically stating that you are willing to blindly follow some set of rules and the FACTS ARE IRRELEVANT??? You're a much smarter man than that Art.
Post by: Anonymous on December 03, 2004, 07:36:00 PM
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On 2004-12-03 11:59:00, artman11111 wrote:
"I am not interested in responding to things i know nothing ab
Post by: Carmel on December 03, 2004, 07:38:00 PM
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On 2004-12-03 11:59:00, artman11111 wrote:
"I am not interested in responding to things i know nothing aboutQuote[ This Message was edited by: Carmel on 2004-12-03 16:39 ]
A closed mouth gathers no foot.[ This Message was edited by: Carmel on 2004-12-03 16:39 ]
Post by: Anonymous on December 03, 2004, 07:59:00 PM
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On 2004-12-03 11:59:00, artman11111 wrote:
"I am not interested in responding to things i know nothing about.
I have no record of statistics,nor do i care.
many of you seem so hell bent on my opinions.Some of you are really whacked... i wont be coming here anymore... theres nothing to discuss.
Never get into a pissin match with a skunk
"
You're right to go then Art. I'm sad to see it, but if you know nothing about these statistics that YOU began quoting and don't care to learn anything about them then you really are closed minded and there really is no point in discussing it any further because you will only see what you want to see.
Post by: Anonymous on December 03, 2004, 08:37:00 PM
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On 2004-12-01 10:05:00, GregFL wrote:
Two more guys that think AA is bullshit.
http://www.sho.com/site/ptbs/topics.do?topic=12 (http://www.sho.com/site/ptbs/topics.do?topic=12)"
Penn and Teller...two of my heroes!!!
Have you played the "AA Success" video clip on that page??? Priceless!!!! :grin:
http://www.sho.com/site/ptbs/topics.do?topic=12 (http://www.sho.com/site/ptbs/topics.do?topic=12)"
Post by: GregFL on December 06, 2004, 12:20:00 AM
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When I believed the propaganda you guys spew, (mainly from my indoctrination at Straight) that "jails, institutions, or death" were the only alternatives to Stepcraft, I pretty much resigned myself to winding up OD'd in some bathroom somewhere. When I encountered alternatives to Stepcraft, I bit the bullet and kicked heroin.
"
Exactly! The first step, admitting you are powerless over drugs (or alcohol..pornograpy..food, too much tv,excessive wax in your ear or whatever else stepcraft is propogating these days)
Is the first step to lifelong failure and malaise.
It is when you EMPOWER yourself to control your urges and seek success in your life that your transcend this dangerous addiction myth of the necessity and importance of the Stepcraft cult in our society.
Congratulations RPT2003...you did it the right way, no groveling at the alter of the false god of stepcraft neccessary.
It is AA that spawned synanon and all these Seed/straight/Elan/CEDU cults BTW. Always remember that.