Post by: southern boy on October 27, 2004, 03:53:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on October 27, 2004, 03:59:00 PM
Post by: southern boy on October 27, 2004, 04:03:00 PM
Post by: thepatriot on October 27, 2004, 05:45:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-10-27 12:59:00, Anonymous wrote:
"and GW and his cronies are fascists. "
Ok, fascists, and what else? Pigs etc, what a fucking sixties throw back. Some of you think that if Kerry gets in we are going to fall into this wonderful utopian peaceful society. Wake the fuck up!!!!! it doesn't exists and never will. So keep getting high with your kids and let them call you by your first name. I am really curious, other than Kerry not being Bush, what concrete plan has he laid out to change anything??? NONE he hasn't other than jacking the taxes up the middle classes ass which is what he will do , he has no plan to change anything. Ask yourself this, uder the current tax laws he and his wife the ketchup lady have a effective tax od 12% do you? I don't I am double that. Do you really think he is going to change anything so him and those like him pay more and your sorry asses pay less? Wrong.....All I have to say if Kerry gets in get ready to cash in your Ben Franklins for Euro Dollars because thats were his UN ass kissing is going to take us.
_________________
Sarasota Straight Escapee
Post by: southern boy on October 27, 2004, 06:17:00 PM
Post by: Antny on October 27, 2004, 08:26:00 PM
How can any person who claims to follow the teachings of Christ be in support of perpetual war, and at the same time try and make abortion illegal. Do the people who support Bush really look at the issues, or are they just victims of political propaganda? I mean, really how can you support this guy? Why, for what reason? Whether Kerry is a great leader or not, he cannot do any more harm than Bush. This has been the worst presidency perhaps in American history. He hasn't made anything more safe. More countries are developing Nukes, because now we look like a global threat. I mean, the technology isn't that difficult.
In '03 the US, under Bush, refused a UN treaty to Ban Nuclear Tests. The US is trying to force others to disarm, yet we're building more nukes? How hipocrital can you get? [ This Message was edited by: Antny on 2004-10-27 17:29 ]
Post by: southern boy on October 27, 2004, 09:11:00 PM
Post by: Polarbear on October 27, 2004, 10:44:00 PM
As for the middle east, let's not forget they hate us anyway. WE'RE NOT MUSLIMS. That's enough for them.
We also support Israel, which is also sufficient for them to hate us.
Yeah, so we have nukes, so what? Does that scare you? Because many of our enemies have them, too. I'm more scared of theirs than I am of ours. And I only hope that, thanks to our many DECADES of stated policy not to use them first, if we ever have to REACT to a nuclear attack we use an overwhelming and disproportionate amount of force to turn the offending power into charcoal and glass.
Nukes don't cause nuclear wars. Ignorant violent psychotic villains do. That's why we try to contol that crap from being spread. Sadly, the Chinese you worry so much about, the North Koreans, Germany, Russia, and France are all too happy to move that stuff around. As I write this the news is just starting to break-it isn't on the national networks yet-that the RUSSIAN SPETZNAZ moved Saddam's high explosives at Al-Qaqaa facility for him to Syria just before we occupied the nation. So much for trust between nations.
Just to make this crystal clear let me explain something. Say what you want about Bush, but at least he has tried to run American policy from a position of strength. In foreign affairs NO ONE respects you if you deal with them from a position of weakness. Even your allies don't really care much for you if you're weak. Weak leaders and weak policy mean events like Somalia. I remember the pathetic way we sent troops in there to protect the humanitarian aid people only to deny them the arms and equipment they needed out of political considerations. You know what that leads to. On the global stage you need to act with strength and iron will or be a pushover for 2nd and 3rd string countries who are willing to use the UN, the GATT, the World Court, NAFTA and other entangling agreements and organizations to hamstring us.
Enjoy-Polarbear
Post by: Anonymous on October 28, 2004, 08:22:00 AM
Post by: thepatriot on October 28, 2004, 09:23:00 AM
Quote
On 2004-10-28 05:22:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Read how fascist Italy came to power in the pre-WWII period. Sounds very much like what is going on today in the USA. You may be from the south, as I am, but obviously you never did your history home-work; you and "the patriot" should try reading for a change and not just pouring shit from your mouth. "
Just because we disagree doesn't make you anymore right than me Anon its called differance of opinions and beliefs. Thank god the people , like my grandpaents and the rest of the WWII generation had enough nads to do the right thing or we would now be a part of Germany. Don't challange me on history while you hide behind that little bag on your head fool. You bleeeding heart liberals make me sick, for some reason you think hardend criminals and child molestors can be rehabilitaed, you can reason with terrorists, and you want to be dependant on government and redistribute the wealth. Not here pal, there are still places like that, Cuba, China , North Korea, Italy. Am I a Republican? hell no a independant that has served his country in many places in the world and have seen and experianced enough outside of this country to know that no matter how fucked up our goverment is, it still works better than the rest. I am sure Anon that you are right in line with John 'F'ing Kerrry's "Global Test" in that we would have to ask the permission of a bunch of Dictators in the UN permission to protect ourselves....Bullshit, Does this offend you ? if so good! if not then I am offended...lol learn how to enjoy some good old fashion debate for god sake. One thing I have found is that a true far left Liberal can not handle somebody disagreeing with them , they hate that, and I love to stir up the pot. Bunch of whinning fucking brats.
_________________
Sarasota Straight Escapee
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: [ This Message was edited by: thepatriot on 2004-10-28 06:43 ][ This Message was edited by: thepatriot on 2004-10-28 06:44 ]
Post by: Anonymous on October 28, 2004, 10:15:00 AM
Post by: Antny on October 28, 2004, 01:53:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-10-27 19:44:00, Polarbear .. Screw China-I can't wait to see their own internal contradictions tear their society apart and force them into decline.
As for the middle east, let's not forget they hate us anyway. WE'RE NOT MUSLIMS. That's enough for them.
We also support Israel, which is also sufficient for them to hate us.
You're certainly right about the fact that lots of people in the middle east hate us, and our current occupation of Iraq, and pre-emptive war against them gave them a whole new reason to attack us. A newly energized Jihad against the US.
Certainly, we were correct to attack Al Queda in response to 9/11. Why did we forget about that attack and invade Iraq? They were unrelated. If you think Saddam and Osama were buddys, then you are a victim of the Bush/Cheney misinformation campaign.
You're missing a critical piece of this that is one of the most frightening for me. I am a student of history, I do medieval re-creation for a hobby, and I've studied the rise and fall of the great Empires throuout history. We are currently repeating the same mistakes that led to the fall of the Roman Empire. Too many battles on too many fronts. Too much corruption internally leads to mistrust on the part of the people. The violence against the RNC that you posted about is a case and point example of this.
The world will align itself against us, and is beginning to. The Islamic world is one thing, but the rest of the world now sees America as a threat (except for Britain and it's enormous commonwealth) and even they hate Bush. Watch the House of Commons on C-span sometime. In the meantime, back on the homefront, the polarization of the country is at Vietnam levels, domestic issues don't look promising, and the country seems to be at odds with itself.
After 9/11, the USA was united like I've never seen it. Now it is divided like I've never seen it. I truly believe that this is the result of the Bush Administration's policies on both foreign and domestic issues. They are serving the interests of coorporate lobbyists, and Christian rightists. Grantedly, a large chunk of the population, but not exactly what I call American interests.
It's interesting really...Christians, Muslims, and Jews all worship the same "God". They have fundamentally similar beliefs. They disagree on the role of "prophets" ie: the muslims think Jesus was the prophet sent to the Jews, and that Mohammed was the prophet sent to the world. They do acknowlege the Bible, but think that it was "tainted" by man. The Christians think that Jesus is the only "way" to Heaven, and all others are wrong. The Jews think they have an "Eternal Covenant" with God and will always be "The Chosen People" They worship the same God, value the same principles and yet there have been more murders in the name of that one God than any other cause in human history. Militant Christianity is now in control of the most powerful military force on the planet. They are no more or less radical than the Islamist Extremists upon which they have waged a Holy War.
What Israel has done to the Palestinian people, with full support of the US Christian faction is a humanitarian atrocity. It has been going on for three decades. Why do you think the Palestinians are desperate enough to blow themselves up for the cause? They are horribly oppressed by Isreal. The "Wall" isn't even built within the legitimate "legal" boundaries of Israel. Yet the US supports them. What incredible hipocracy is the Christian faith in America? Bush prays for guidance. You really think that's God's voice in his head???
Post by: Antigen on October 28, 2004, 03:44:00 PM
You're right, Ant, the ppl of the mideast (especially, but not by any means exclusively) have plenty of good, valid reasons to hate and fear the USFG.
Interestingly, Americans seem to be just about the only people who have a hard time making the distinction between Americans and our federal government. Most of the world really doesn't hate America, they actually like us. They're just not too fond of having their homelands, farms, water supplies and downs covered in "depleted" uranium, reformulated Agent Orange (as in the erradication spraying program ongoing in So. America), School of the Americas (aka school of assasins) thugs, sanctions, embargos and all the rest.
But Kerry's only very slightly more moderate on foreign policy than Büsh. All he's promising is to get back to business as usual, which is how we got into this mess in the first place.
So really, I don't care that much which Ivy League, New England born and bred Bonesman takes up residence next year in the public housing unit on Pennsylvania Ave. It doesn't matter that much.
What I care about is that we elect local representatives w/ the balls and intelligence to shut down roughly 90% of federal programs and funding. If we are unable to rein in our out of control public "servants", some foreign power w/ more incentive will do it for us.
A slipping gear could let your M203 grenade launcher fire when you least expect it. That would make you quite unpopular in what's left of your unit.
-- In the August 1993 issue, page 9, of PS magazine, the Army's magazine of preventive maintenance
Post by: thepatriot on October 28, 2004, 04:31:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on October 28, 2004, 06:55:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on October 28, 2004, 10:19:00 PM
AGREE WITH! :smile:
I think that we should defund the gov't and get rid of a majority of Federal agencies. A writer stated once that we were overwhelmed with pointless and useless bureaucracy. We have a dept of education that's never taught a child, a dept of energy that never produced a watt, a dept of housing and urban development that never housed a soul, and so on. I think a lot of these could be shrunk or removed. They provide little more than a job for some and a suck on our wallets. Most of their work is mediocre and pointless as far as I'm concerned. Studies and ad campaigns telling us to buy eggs or aluminum siding or what-have-you. I think the states could replace them, if necessary, easily. They didn't always exist. I think politics belong at the local level. Plato, in one of my favorite quotes of all time, is quoted as saying "They who wear the boot know best where it pinches." That says it all for me. Enjoy-Polarbear
Post by: Antny on October 28, 2004, 10:49:00 PM
And get this, now the Bush Admin's newest plan is to have mandatory psychological evaluations for children at Elementary levels. This one is cleverly titled the "New Freedom Initiative" Oh yeah, lets make their teachers take the psych eval too. Who do you think's gonna get rich off that one? The pharmaseutical industry. As if we don't have enough kids that are overmedicated and still spend all their time in front of the TV and playing video games. [ This Message was edited by: Antny on 2004-10-28 20:01 ][ This Message was edited by: Antny on 2004-10-28 20:06 ][ This Message was edited by: Antny on 2004-10-28 20:10 ]
Post by: Anonymous on October 28, 2004, 11:27:00 PM
Quote
On 2004-10-28 19:19:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Actually, Antigen, you say something I strongly...
AGREE WITH! :smile:
I think that we should defund the gov't and get rid of a majority of Federal agencies. A writer stated once that we were overwhelmed with pointless and useless bureaucracy. We have a dept of education that's never taught a child, a dept of energy that never produced a watt, a dept of housing and urban development that never housed a soul, and so on. I think a lot of these could be shrunk or removed. They provide little more than a job for some and a suck on our wallets. Most of their work is mediocre and pointless as far as I'm concerned. Studies and ad campaigns telling us to buy eggs or aluminum siding or what-have-you. I think the states could replace them, if necessary, easily. They didn't always exist. I think politics belong at the local level. Plato, in one of my favorite quotes of all time, is quoted as saying "They who wear the boot know best where it pinches." That says it all for me. Enjoy-Polarbear"
Gee what would all you lazy bleeding heart feel good artsy feel sorry for me because I don't work hard enough types, do with no social programs????? that means you would actually have to work....PLATO, that says it all!!!!! unlike YOU I AM A REALIST, PLATO what a fucking joke , you might as well quote Stallin or Mau(or how ever you spell it) Wake the fuck up....no go back to sleep and dream , because that is were PLATO's reality lives...in your dreams. Big cars, big guns, red meat and NFL...that is at least reality...PLATO :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Post by: Polarbear on October 28, 2004, 11:30:00 PM
To Antny-
Oddly enough, I like to think of myself as a student of history as well. Odder still, I am into reenacting, too-WW II Red Army. I also got impressions for WWII US Army ETO, and Viet Cong.
I do see the parallels with Roman history. And I have operated under the assumption that we were spinning around the drain for some time. But I focus on the Republic instead of the Empire. And the corruption of that period wasn't as much the problem as the open nature of the political system. Many things were codified by tradition, not law. If the Romans had stayed within their social/cultural confines, things would have continued apace. But ambition and lust for power were too tempting and force against the politcal process became acceptable. Anything could be accomplished because rules didn't exist to stop it-just convention and tradition. I see the similarites much more evident than the Empire. We don't have much of an Empire urge. We do have a problem with people exercising the same license to the detriment of liberty as the Romans I mentioned above.
I don't think our international image is as important as you seem to. Loyalty and honor among nations is about as dependable as with thieves. Those who like us are almost as big a liability as those who don't. (You would be surprised just how much our friends spy on us and steal from us.) Just look at the recent attempts to monkey with our internal politics!
Those who don't like us still recognize our strength and our trade value. Upon our whims and opinions fortunes are made. At this point the world can't exist without us. I wouldn't worry about their unhappiness with us. (Love is fleeting anyway, I would rather have nations fear and respect us than love us.)
If you're talking about the Iraq situation, let me point out that the French, Russians, and Germans are upset with us about it because of what they lost. They had huge fortunes tied up in debts with Saddam. They supplied his nuclear programs, weapons and armaments, chemicals, and other resources. The Saddam regime owed all of them a great deal. The Russians knew we didn't approve. Why else did they spirit out of Iraq most of Saddam's high explosives, NBC-related equipment and resources, high-tech weapons, rocket components and so on while destroying thousands of pages of documents showing the connection? Putin supports Bush even as he deals with our diverging strategic interests.
For now we're on top. I say enjoy it while you can and prepare for the day the bill comes due. I figure when the rest of the world realizes we can't pay off the interest on our bills we'll plummet to the bottom, their economies will collapse, and the world economy will hit the crapper. Dollar bills will be worth less than toilet paper when it happens. Save up! :lol:
Enjoy-Polarbear[ This Message was edited by: Polarbear on 2004-10-28 20:31 ]
Post by: Polarbear on October 28, 2004, 11:37:00 PM
Post by: Polarbear on October 29, 2004, 12:55:00 AM
Want to know why a smaller % is spent on education? Because no one cares. I've heard similar statistics all my life. My teacher complained to me in 6th grade that garbagemen made more than she did. If a couple decades isn't sufficient to fix it, why worry now? No one cares.
I think school is important, but the guvvament schools are sort of like your "suggested minimum" when it comes to education. Sorry, but unless someone clues you in after your done with a day in one of those ignorance mills, you're screwed. You probably won't get far graduating from one of those. I've always learned more outside of classes than I did inside. Even through college. I learned a great deal more on the outside on my own initiative. I plan on homeschooling if at all possible. I'm not convinced that the poor results we get for public education aren't intended anyway. How can we get such poor results, even with what we throw at schools these days?
Besides, don't you know what we're developing towards? An intellectual aristocracy. A small group of well-educated techno-crats and experts in control of a mass of illiterate, dysfunctional, distracted, tools. And why not? Look at the morons we're swamped with now. Let's embrace it and enjoy our future privileges. We'll be happy while the gammas do whatever it is gammas do...
As for the military budget-HAHAHAHAH!:lol:
I'm in the army and I never see much of that money. Most of it goes to massive pointless weapons systems and cosmetic changes. Well, at least the new uniform will be cool.
Enjoy-Polarbear
[ This Message was edited by: Polarbear on 2004-10-28 22:15 ]
Post by: Deborah on October 29, 2004, 09:01:00 AM
Regarding those 'tests', the ones that are required every other year to assess the system and student.
My grandson was subject to that in third grade. They claimed he was having problems with 'comprehension'. My daughter paid $500 for a private tutor/consultant only to find out he was right on course. That was a horrible year. The year he decided he hated school and didn't want to go. My daughter and I read some of the practice questions and just shook our heads. So much of it was abstract thinking. Questions that had more than one answer depending on one's perception.
Now this year, fifth grade, the district called my daghter in to say that my grandson was 'at risk'. At risk of WHAT? At risk of failing a test which expects him to already know 50% of the material he will be exposed to this year. She finally took my advice and told the teacher she didn't give a flying f about their diagnostic test. That she wasn't going to put herself or her son through the anxiety and distress they'd been through 2 years ago.
And what a waste of tax dollars and teachers' time. The district pays tens of thousands of dollars for these tests to assess whether or not the kids know 50% of what they are to learn that year.
Education is a money-making racket, and lauded as the 'cure' for poverty. Just read that only 22% of jobs in this country require a degree. If everyone went to college, where will they all work? And no society could function if everyone was a middle class 'professional'. We need diversity, and a living wage. That's the cure to poverty.
I homeschooled for the first couple of years, then my kids went to Montessori. I really like that system of education. If the public system were to adopt it, we'd see many of the 'problems' corrected immediately. But, then school is not about what's best for the kids or education, but social conditioning.
John Taylor Gatto's work 'The Underground History of Education' is great on that subject:
http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/index.htm (http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/index.htm)
Post by: Antny on October 29, 2004, 09:45:00 AM
Quote
On 2004-10-28 21:55:00, Polarbear wrote:
"Now THAT is an interesting figure. Eisenhower warned us of the dangers of the military-industrial complex. One thing I've found interesting is the way that funding gets spread out. Now, I would love to see the school system do better, but the last time I cared to look our education system spends more money per capita than anyone else in the world. ""
Yeah, just like you said about the military, and all that money that goes to where??? Pointless weapons systems...right, the coorporations like Haliburton, etc...
In education, it's sort of similar, a huge portion of the funding goes to the publishing coorporations that develop and grade the "standardized tests". They are the same coorporations that get the huge contracts for statewide adoption of textbooks. Who gets to pick first? Texas and Florida do. The textbooks are whitewashed and watered down to the point where kids think we were "nice" to the Indians and have never heard of the "Holocaust".
Can you believe those bleeding heart liberal who fought for the right to teach "evolutionism" in school. Remember that argument, the creationism v evolutionism argument. That's the kind of control the conservatives would like to have over the information available. It's the same phoenomena going on with the mainstream media coverage of current events. We only hear what they want us to hear. That's why it's so important to give horrid new bills cool sounding names like:
"Healthy Forest Initiative" = Clearcutting
"Clean Air Act" = Rollbacks on emmissions standards
"No Child Left behind" = bad poor kids!
"New Freedon Initiative" = Mandatory psych evals.
"The Patriot Act = uhh American KGB? - you guys see the "Lone Star Clause" within the Patriot Act? - the President has the right to redraw state lines in case of "National Security" - which Bush obviously thinks is Him remaining President. Really? Texas could annex it's neighboring states, and pool the popular vote so that the Electoral College votes from all the states go to one candidate (presumably Bush if his Texas base holds fast) - NOT ME!
Gerrymandering on a National Level in a Presedential Election. That's how the Republicans got control in Texas, thankl you for the ass rape, Mr Delay!
[ This Message was edited by: Antny on 2004-10-29 07:08 ]
Post by: Antny on October 29, 2004, 10:06:00 AM
I strongly agree with the vast majority of what you say. One place that I haven't lost my faith completely (though I have serious doubts) is in the Ability of America to reform and change.
My point Internationally is basically that we can't really afford to give such a large percentage a valid reason to unite against the U.S. You're right, we're on top now, and by playing the Game of Houses wisely, we could stay there indefinately based on the resources at our disposal. However, acting unilaterally and as a big bad bully "Team America, World Police" we will have more enemies than we can deal with simultaneously.
The Romans, as I understand it, basically incorporated the cultures of the peoples they conquered into their traditions. They "assimilated", and spread a constantly morphing Christianity around the Empire (after Constantine made it officially the "Religion") Obviously that was a long process, but in the end, we ended up with this collage of different faiths under one umbrella. Funny how modern day Christians think that it was always that way, and Christ made it that way. Look at the influence of Druidism on Christianity. Even many of today's "Holidays" are adaptations of Celtic traditions of Druidism. Easter, Halloween, etc...
Hence my argument: The hipocracy, and righteousness at the top of America is small minded, and uninformed in the realm of reality. Bush truly believes in the "End of Days", and thinks this is it. That may very well become a Self-fulfilling Prophecy if he is allowed to make it so! I say that we, the few informed intellectual types who believe that we can inhabit this planet indefinitely, are obligated to dispell the fanaticism of Bush!
Post by: Polarbear on October 29, 2004, 04:41:00 PM
Enjoy-Polarbear
Post by: Deborah on October 29, 2004, 06:59:00 PM
For many leading Republicans, dying coral reefs and melting ice caps are welcomed as signs of the Rapture.
http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=15814 (http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=15814)
Why Ecocide Is 'Good News' for the GOP
The federal government -- with Republicans in control of the White House, Congress and the judiciary -- has launched the largest rollback of environmental laws and regulations ever. The Bush administration seems determined to undo much of the good done since Earth Day 1970, when 20 million Americans defended the planet in the biggest mass demonstration of U.S. history.
The reasons behind Republican anti-environmentalism have often been stated but deserve review: George W. Bush and Dick Cheney are former oil men who believe in the efficiency of the marketplace. Market conservatives tend to see environmentalists as either frivolous tree-huggers or dangerous monkey-wrenching eco-terrorists. They dismiss good environmental science as the doomsaying of the loony left.
Almost by definition, they lack an understanding of such concepts as sustainability, carrying capacity, biodiversity or webs of interdependence. And of course, promoting any policies that go against immediate economic goals would put the administration up against strong corporate interests. The American auto industry, for example, remains a powerful economic engine in many states; if SUV sales are keeping domestic automakers afloat, the automakers will resist spending millions to impose tough new fuel efficiency standards on these vehicles.
Nevertheless, beyond all these more obvious anti-environmental motivations there lies a more deep-seated inspiration. Difficult as it may be to believe, many of the conservatives who have great influence in the Bush administration and now in Congress are governed by a Higher Power.
In his book "The Carbon Wars," Greenpeace activist Jeremy Leggett tells how he stumbled upon this otherworldly agenda. During the Kyoto climate change negotiations, Leggett candidly asked Ford Motor Company executive John Schiller how opponents of the pact could believe there is no problem with "a world of a billion cars intent on burning all the oil and gas available on the planet?" The executive asserted first that scientists get it wrong when they say fossil fuels have been sequestered underground for eons. The Earth, he said, is just 10,000, not 4.5 billion years old, the age widely accepted by scientists.
Then Schiller confidently declared, "You know, the more I look, the more it is just as it says in the Bible." The Book of Daniel, he told Leggett, predicts that increased earthly devastation will mark the "End Time" and return of Christ. Paradoxically, Leggett notes, many fundamentalists see dying coral reefs, melting ice caps and other environmental destruction not as an urgent call to action, but as God's will. In the religious right worldview, the wreck of the Earth can be seen as Good News!
Such misinformed viewpoints would be of little import except that, in the 1980s, they began permeating the Republican Party. That's when Republican strategists -- eager to broaden the party's narrow base of wealthy corporate supporters -- partnered with religious right leaders such as Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson, who agreed to politicize their followers and bring them into the GOP, according to Bokaer.
As it turns out, politicians who ally themselves with the religious right are also rabidly anti-environmental. Those who score high with the Christian Coalition almost invariably score low with LCV.
For those who think the teaching of environmental science is safe in our schools, or that evolution vs. creationism is a dead issue, listen to this comment from Tom DeLay, one of the most powerful men in Congress. He suggested that the Columbine, Colorado school shootings occurred "because our school systems teach our children that they are nothing but glorified apes who have evolutionized out of some primordial mud."
DeLay agrees with Ford executive Schiller that, despite the fossil evidence, the Earth is only thousands of years old. Such willful ignorance of science informs the religious right approach to the environment, and the embattled Earth will bear the consequences.
Post by: Polarbear on October 29, 2004, 07:41:00 PM
My thought for some time has been that we need to either dump this education system or go back to the basics of reading, writing, and arithmatic (sounds crazy, doesn't it?) and maybe even dig up the really insane stuff they used to teach kids. Stuff like Latin, citizenship, music or chorus and so on. I only say so because the old standards of the turn of the century were insane compared to today. I've seen a famous test-something like the Iowa 8th grade standardized graduation test. On this test are a range of subjects ranging from history to math to grammar and others. The test is so hard that I don't think I could pass it. And most adults couldn't either. Impressive. We're used to a very watered down form of education here. I've seen films on what is expected in English, German, and Japanese schools.
I only say that we might need to tighten the screws because from what I understand much of education has been eroded by weak-willed and weak-minded do-gooders and bad educators. I have heard of the new math where the results aren't as important as trying to solve it. The Ebonics proposal to quit teaching correct English to Blacks and Latinos in California. (seems sort of like a way to insure their inability to operate within the system and the economy) I have also heard of sexual education courses aimed at early grade school kids. That makes sense to me-teach 8 or 9 year-olds sexuality. They don't need a childhood anyway. And there are tons of examples of teachers trying to indoctrinate students with their own political ideas. Last week it was a school in Montana explaining how a bunch of political party literature went home with kids. I remember Sidwell Friends school in DC was criticized when they had their kids write an essay in the 90s titled, "Why I'm Ashamed to be White." That must do wonders for a child's self esteem. I remember DARE came into schools as I was on my way out. I never had to do it, thank God. Well, with all these different programs and alternative ways to confuse your kids what time are they putting into the basics?
Like I said before, there are people graduating who can't read their own diplomas.
I remember when I was in college years ago there was a major called "Ed Studies." It was teaching people to be teachers. The problem I had with it was, aside from the people I met in it who seemed to be incompetent, the idea that you could study teaching and thus be a teacher. It seemed to me that you should actually be learning real disciplines-like science or math or english or literature or political science and teaching from them. What can you really hope to teach if you don't know anything about the subjects involved?
I also fault the lazy, selfish, parents of today who take no time to be a part of their kids' education. Parents have to work with the schools to make sure their kids are learning things. Actually look at their damn report cards and discuss what they're up to. Hell, take an interest in their classes. I remember there were parents who would help out the teacher when I was in school. These days the wrong parts of their education appear to have been politicized. And the parents spend little time involved with their kids' schools. The only time many appear to get involved is to protest or fight with the school for disciplining their kids. A guy was telling me the other day about a friend of his who teaches. During a film or something a couple kids decided to go at it in the back of the room. She caught a girl giving a guy a little oral while no one else was looking. Of course the parents were upset with the school-their kids are always angels. As for that one...I got no solution. Just let me add that's why I want to teach my kid(s) at home.
Now as for the garbage man thing-it wasn't a fact. It was the complaint of a teacher I had as a kid. Go figure. :smile:
Enjoy-Polarbear
Post by: Anonymous on October 29, 2004, 10:18:00 PM
But what he has to say has a lot to do with the "dumbing down" of America. As it happens, I went through a school system in Britain where I was one year too late to take Latin and Greek. Nevertheless, I was still taught the classical way and was well grounded in logic, mathematics, physics chemistry and biology. (thank goodness in Britain we didn't have to battle with the creationists and their fundamentalism -- the Scopes monkey trial, remember?). I was well grounded in the disciplines of science and art. Then I came to North America and was shocked upon taking my B.Ed degree that schools were not teaching English, for example, they were teaching ABOUT English as an academic subject. It seemed that all the things that George Orwell was talking about "group-think", "doublethink" and the like was coming to pass in the N. American education system ofwhich I had become a part. Moreover, I cringed when I found myself have to teach "Social Sudies" instead of the disciplines of Geography, History and Economics. And I quickly learned that "political science" was totally political and devoid of any "science"
Education over the last 50 years (since I was in school) has changed, but not all of it is bad. Certainly, there is much to be said for a more classical approach, and I commend the writings of Thomas Stearns Eliot to you for his thoughts on the subject. But at the same time, not everything from the "liberal" or "progressive" approach is to be condemned either.
What I think is a problem is that the schools of Education have too much of an emphasis on pedagogy or the methodology of teaching and insufficient emphasis on the substance, i.e. the essence of what is to be taught. As a result, teachers graduate without sufficient grounding in the real disciplines of the subjects they are to teach.
In High School I was fortunate to be taught English Language & Literature by an Oxford Graduate with a master's degree in English Literature, Mathematics by a PH.D in Mathematics, Religious Knowledge by a PH.D in Theology, German from a PH.D in German and Geography from a person who's first degree was in Geography. How many teachers today have first degree's in the subjects they teach? Not many! I think it should be a pre-requisite of all teachers, at least in the secondary grades, that they should have a degree in some other discipline before they have their education credentials.
The key to better education lies in better educated teachers in the disciplines, NOT courses in methodology.