Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Nihilanthic on October 25, 2004, 12:13:00 PM
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Ok, so my speech therapist (and more importantly her boss...) seems to think the thing with the seminars is people have differnet perspectives of the same thing.
The reason this came up is part of the whole theory of mind thing - understanding how they feel and think. I'm very able to do that. I can convincingly argue for Bush or Kerry, or for or against stemcells, etc... but the thing is, its not just a matter of opinion when you could have been coerced or brainwashed.
The two of them seem to think brainwashing isn't possible and/or not attempted.
Well, okay, so the one that the paycheck-giver and her daughter went to was only a seminar where they push your buttons, but stop and show you how you acted, instead of push your buttons to brainwash or interrogate in a less controlled manner. In THAT instance yeah if they screw up you might come out hurt or offended or abused...
How do I rebute that with the testimony I've gotten myself that it was used to break them down, and that the CIA says those methods CAN BE and HAVE BEEN, used for brainwashing? What the boss said, "What you describe seems like a program gone wrong" is the only thing I could really think of. But when it comes down to your perspective of the experience, and a PSYCHOLOGIST and other mental health experts have said it can be brainwashing and it is psychological abuse... is it just another perspective of the same thing?
And if it does give such mixed reactions from this 'therapy' is it really the best thing to be doing? I've heard of a BDSM scene to re-enact a rape as therapy, but I don't see my therapist dressing like a schoolkid and teasing me, or busting out some cuffs and a whip, now do I?
Obviously not, a lot of people would object to it and wouldn't get anything except a actual rape out of it. Argh... why do I keep seeing parallels between BDSM and this whole damn industry?
Anyway, hopefully I'll get them to drop the whole program shit and just focus on ME, because I don't need to deal with her need to be right about this wonderful experience.
I can't freaking just accept her point of view like any other kind of conversation if I think she could have been misinformed (as many parents have been) or brainwashed (as many parents and children have been) now can I? Its not politics or bench-racing cars or superman vs batman, its "they might have had their mind made for them or been lied to" :|
...it is worth discussing radical changes, not in the expectation that they will be adopted promptly but for two other reasons. One is to construct an ideal goal, so that incremental changes can be judged by whether they move the institutional structure toward or away from that ideal. The other reason is very different. It is so that if a crisis requiring or facilitating radical change does arise, alternatives will be available that have been carefully developed and fully explored."
Milton Friedman
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Yeh, they were trained in the same 'school of thought'.
*** Argh... why do I keep seeing parallels between BDSM and this whole damn industry?
Because, in case you haven't noticed (no sarcasm intended) we live in a culture that is basically very violent. There are exceptions, but this culture as a whole, still believes and sets social policy based on the thinking that the way to change anything they define as 'anti-social' behavior is through punishment. More recently they like to think it is disordered brain chemistry for which drugs are the cure. Might throw in a little punishment for good measure, if the 'crime' calls for it. This same belief is demonstrated throughout most religious text, inspite of Jesus' comments to the contrary. I guess humans have slightly progressed- its rare to hear of a parent 'slaying' a defiant child.
But, although they may not physically kill them, modern parents are very successful in killing their kids spirit, killing their hope, killing their enthusiasm for life. It's a sad state of affairs.
As for the workshops, here's my take on it, and I've attended my share over the years. Some good, some pathetic.
There is benefit in revisiting past traumas and checking out what beliefs one might have adopted from those experiences- beliefs that are controlling one's thoughts and actions- usually in an undesirable way (undesirable to the person). If one is physically abused as a child, it stands to reason that they might adopt the belief that they are unworthy and that physical abuse is 'normal' and 'acceptable'. That is how they were conditioned (brainwashed, if you will). This person would be much more likely to accept domestic violence and would not view it as abuse, even though it hurt and they disliked it. On some level they feel they 'deserve' it.
When one revisits those past traumas there can be some expression of emotions like crying, shaking, raging, etc. That is good therapy. It allows one to voice their displeasure and resentment about the way they were treated, which was suppressed when the actual trauma ocurred. Then they can move toward contradicting the erroneous messages they adopted.
Now, while that is good therapy in a one-on-one situation; many have tried to re-create that in a group scenerio. It's just not the same, and never will be.
Based on my experience, there is very little actual 'therapy' happening in these large group encounters. There is alot of acting, competition for the best performance, vying for the leaders attention, dependence on the group high, etc. etc.
Group encounters are like a holy-rolling church service. People get together, the 'spirit' starts moving through them and its contageous- wailing and singing the praises. They can feel this high for a few hours or few days after they leave the service, but nothing fundamentally has changed for them.
And... when this type of therapy is 'forced' you end up with people contriving a release. Not therapy. You can not 'act' an emotional release and benefit from it. Emoting on demand is not therapy. It's only therapy when it happens spontaneously in the course of reviewing past traumas. That is the key issue for why these group encounters do not work, imho.
That's how I see the group encounters. No real therapy takes place, just a feel-good high, which makes them more suggestable to the directions given by leader.
I have seen some pretty sick puppies in the position of leader, who don't know their ass from a hole in the ground. But they always have charisma and the ability to 'get the spirit moving'. It's like a pep rally. People keep going back, as with religion, for the high.
All the while, no real change has ocurred. They are still controlled by useless beliefs, they still have difficulty in intimate relationships, they still feel no connection to their kids, they still believe that punishment and torture is 'good therapy' for the 'socially disordered'.
Ever been to a southern baptist revival. If you haven't, look one up and you'll see the same dynamics functioning. People signing and praising to the roof, testifying. And at the end, the preacher will be calling the sinners to come forward and repent. S/he wants them back every Sunday so s/he can shape their thoughts about right/wrong, good/evil, etc. etc. S/he also wants their 10% of the persons income in the plate every week. And s/he will keep them coming back with the 'fear of god'. This group dynamic is very profitable for churches and workshop leaders.
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From what I've read, it seems like many people don't "believe" in brainwashing until they encounter it themselves. I don't think there's anything you can do to convince these people. You can print out some of the information available on the net-- the CIA report, etc. And if, after reading all this, they still don't believe it can and does happen, just leave it alone. Nothing you can do.
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Nihilantic - for someone who wants to understand the process of personal growth seminars, your
personal view will never be resolved until you go to one. Fear of what you don't know is getting exactly what you are doing right now, wondering, questioning and damning.
You can always leave - Please don't make money the excuse. I can't think of even one good reason why you don't go instead of askng for validation of your view on this board.
If you want to get your feet wet, go see the movie "What the Bleep Do We Know?" It's not really about seminars, but goes deeper into opening some of those doors you've closed.
I wouldn't take any advice from Deborah either, she hasn't been to one.
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I don't think the lady (the boss speech person) is trying to be right. She is correct in that every person will come away with something different. No person's view or experience will be the same. It's not about her being right, it about letting you know there are many different perspectives and hers is just one.
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Devout TMers/Quantum Physicists damn sure wouldn't condone the abuse characteristic to ALL programs- that have been spelled out over and over on this forum. And I feel certain they wouldn't like you making any kind of association between them and 'the industry'. What point are you trying to make by linking the two?
If anyone of these quantum physicists did condone the idustry, rest assured that it would be because they were ill informed of the realities.
Nope, these folks would say 'teach these kids how to meditate'. That's their solution to the world's problems.
And given what goes on in the programs, it would be a better option. But, will not right all the wrongs in their family units.
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Not believing in Brain washing is like not believing in cows. Its not some make believe thing. It is real, and it is predictable in its effects.
You can use various terms to name it, but it is the same thing and just as real weather you call it brain washing, mind control, thought reform or Behavior modification.
It is well (but not completely) understood; and thoroughly studied by some of the best minds to ever wrangle with the human mind and how it functions.
I have several books on the subject and am often struck by the obvious and clear similarities to the wwasp programs and the "dammed seminars". Get a copy of "The manipulated mind". Amazon has it.
[ This Message was edited by: BuzzKill on 2004-10-25 14:50 ]
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First, two points:
1. I am flat broke. Sorry. Sponsor me or drop it. And if I did have a few thousand lying around I'd much rather go get a nice car instead of my $400 beater that chews up rod-bearings like tic-tacs. Do you like dropping an oil pan and sticking your hand in your engine's naughty places? Its terribly inconvenient, and I don't have a garage.
2. The indication I got from all of the testimonies about the seminars (versus the secrecy that abounds!) was that they try to get you to get mad, or sad. They push your buttons. I know my psychological state and what baggage I have and I do not need to nor want to be made vulnerable in a group experience. If an actual therapist thought it would be beneficial and is necessary sure I'll play the crying game with someone I trust, not a bunch of people out to make a buck. And yes, being made vulnerable and having emotional and psychological attacks can make it easier to influence someone. And I do know how I'd take it, as torture. I'd walk out and I might take a few people's teeth with me. I don't need a experiential seminar to let me know what gets me worked up. And I know I'm not the healthiest person in the world inside - I know what my issues are.
I'm involved in this issue because of my shitty childhood and I'd rather not let it be perpetuated anymore. I don't need to rage or scream or cry or bang on a chair or have a breakdown with a bunch of strangers, get humiliated, then get the high from the experience. I can masturbate with my hand for free, I don't need to do it psychologically and spend money I do not have! Besides, when I initially found out about this sorry 'teen help industry' I had more than enough breakdowns.
And yes, if its just a subjective opinion on an experience, everyone will have a different perception of it. Is this song good or bad? Does that car look nice or is it hokey? Which would win in a race? What cup size is Britney Spears right now? Thats a matter of opinion.
When there is quite a lot of flak out there about misinformation and coersion to the point of brainwashing in seminars, then I can't just follow the rule of opinion, if they were unduly influenced by it. Extreme distress and screwing with your mind tends to make you unable to just have an opinion (educated or not) about something. If it was just a matter of opinion I'd accept it as such.
I'd like some experts with proper training and constitution to abuse (incase there is any) to sit in some of these seminars, or just get peephole cameras and hidden microphones to get his objectively evaulated by professionals. That would help to resolve all of this.
BTW, applying quantum physics to the macroscopic world is freaking ridiculous. Go take those water crystals and "What the bleep" and throw it in the trash with all the other junk science. Funny how you'd bring up that damned movie when I've seen it connected to the "quantum coaching" and resource realizations. Ugh. What next, Orgone energy collectors and cold fusion powered Hondas?
To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them...
-- Richard Henry Lee, 1787
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i know this is an old topic, and that i have given my opinion on many different threads. i apologise if anyone thinks i am being too opinionated. O.k., here's my take on the seminars, and yes, i have been, very recently. they do their best to make you feel like you are a naughty 10 yr. old. they get people very worked up emotionally and then try to "heal" them by telling them they have the tools to fix themselves. the major problem with these seminars is this: no one is screened to see if they can handle this type of psycological roller coaster. 2nd., the facilitator and staff are not licensed in any way to handle anyone having a severe psycological breakdown. nor are they licensed to open up your head and tinker in there. i think it is absolutely negligible. i think everyone should sue if they have troubles because of it.
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I have one word, Paranoid!!
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Don't worry about being too opinionated. We all are. Especially Niles. :wink: That's what these boards are here for.
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Dear Anon,
if you are referring to me as being paranoid, then that is totally untrue. i was in no way affected by the seminars. except for inconvenienced.
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Not you chi, the ones on this board. Not you at all.
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Ok, 'paranoid'....
Um, I'm going by the information presented to me by the people who wrote up about the seminars, people like chi who went there and told us how they work, and by past 'students' who said they were bad.
Thats not paranoia thats using the information given to you.
Paranoia would be for no reason at all. We have several.
Perrigaud - yeah, I'm opinionated, because there is so little in the way of FACTS coming out of those damn places. Maybe that should be fixed?Every man thinks God is on his side. The rich and powerful know he is.
--Jean Anouilh, French dramatist and playwright
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On 2005-01-14 05:30:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I have one word, Paranoid!!"
How come you didn't sign this one?Our Bible reveals to us the character of our god with minute and remorseless exactness... It is perhaps the most damnatory biography that exists in print anywhere. It makes Nero an angel of light and leading by contrast.
--Samuel Clemens "Mark Twain", American author and humorist
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On 2004-10-25 12:18:00, Anonymous wrote:
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You can always leave - Please don't make money the excuse."
Yes, you can leave, anyone can leave, but if you are in a program like I was you had to complete these seminars or trainings to move up to higher levels. You didn't have a choice.
We had two different individual trainings we had to go through. Two family trainings and at least one parent had to go through the parent challenge be able to do the family trainings.
There was a girl when I was there that they made go through the first training three times because she wouldn't hit a chair.
They are one of the most humiliating experiences I have ever gone through.
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Relax Niles. I was kidding in a serious way.
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Kidding seriously?
Sorry. You set me off :flame: Infidel: In New York, one who does not believe in the Christian religion; in Constantinople, one who does.
--Ambrose Bierce
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What Are Teen Seminars: Found this site:
http://www.guidingteens.com/Seminars,-W ... inars.html (http://www.guidingteens.com/Seminars,-Workshops,-Retreats,-Speaking_Teen-Seminars.html) - non WWASPS affiliates.
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Wow thanks for posting a dead link and ignoring my post.
I don't believe in God. My god is patriotism. Teach a man to be a good citizen and you have solved the problem of life.
--Andrew Carnegie, Scottish-born American industrialist and philanthropist
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Niles,
Sounds intense. Well the seminars are intense as well. Personally they helped me. Not every single process but a lot of 'em. It wasn't all about crying and feeling the pain for me. For me it was about releasing all the inner thoughts and feelings I never let out. Because I kept them in for so long they consumed me. They tore at me unitl one day I thought that the only way to get rid of them was to beat 'em out whether it was myself or others.
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On 2005-01-18 00:50:00, Perrigaud wrote:
"Niles,
Sounds intense. Well the seminars are intense as well. Personally they helped me. Not every single process but a lot of 'em. It wasn't all about crying and feeling the pain for me. For me it was about releasing all the inner thoughts and feelings I never let out. Because I kept them in for so long they consumed me. They tore at me unitl one day I thought that the only way to get rid of them was to beat 'em out whether it was myself or others. "
You were lucky. When I was in college, one of my professors who was professor emeritus and former head of the psych department had *very* unkind things to say about the damage done to many individuals by the "sensitivity training" fad that stirred up a lot of emotions and memories in participants with unqualified training leaders who didn't know how to *properly* resolve what they stirred up.
That's what WWASPS and the other Programs reminds me of. I see the Programs as another psychotherapy cult/fad run largely by unqualified people who, as a result of not really knowing what they're doing, screw a lot of people's heads up in a big way.
I'm glad you're doing okay.
But the problem here is, you were *lucky*. I mean, I'm glad for you that you were one of the lucky ones. I just want the industry reformed and improved so there aren't as many psychiatric casualties of the process.
By "psychiatric casualties" I mean suicides (during or after), people who come out with PTSD, and inappropriate placements.
Some places are better than others. Some places are better some years than others. Sometimes some kids are lucky enough to get staff that are actually competent through training or naturally talented enough to muddle through.
But systematic reforms, particularly ones that prevent inappropriate placements in the first place and ensure minimum professional standards for training and qualifications of the various employees, could substantially reduce the number of casualties coming out of these places.
I'm glad you were lucky.
I want reforms to protect the ones who aren't lucky now, and the ones next week and next year who won't be lucky like you were.
Timoclea
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T is right... but regressional seminars are not a golden hammer.
You, apparently, were a nail. Lots of people arent.
I saw it screw up two of my friends and the concept of it is attacking someone until they flip out. Only in specific situations, would it be useful. And, only with people who could handle it AND benefit from it.
You managed to handle it and claim you benefitted. Thats very well. But, there is no prescreeining at all to see if it would 1. not hurt 2. help people.
Supposedly, now you have to sign a waiver saying nothing is wrong with you and you are not on drugs, before you enter such a seminar. That speaks for itself.Legalizing drugs would simultaneously reduce the amount of crime and raise the quality of law enforcement. Can you conceive of any other measure that would accomplish so much to promote law and order?
--Economist Milton Friedman
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Luck has nothing to do with it. My family knew very well that this was something that would help me and that I wouldn't come out a damaged soul. Luck? No, it's about using your mind and will. I didn't agree with some of the things that went on throughout my program experience. I also knew what I was up for when I came home. I knew I needed to be a strong minded person and fight for my life. When I say this ("fight for my life") I mean that I was not willing to be dependent on the program and realize that I was completely helpless when I came out.
I have always agreed that this form of therapy is not for everyone. It's for the individuals who are strong minded and need help with what they don't want to ask help for. I aggree screenings should be held as well as a thorough monitering of these places.
It saddens me to know that although the program helped me that it has harmed many. It sucks that it is corrupted. Again, I'll use the comparison of religion. Religion has helped many but has also destroyed many. Some people use it as a weapon against others which totally nullifies it's true purity.
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Perrigaud, basically you're admitting this is a stark, rough, 'tough' *as if thats a good thing* program that only works on extremely strong willed and strongly constituted humans, but messes up other people, if not outright brainwasing them.
Thats NOT a good thing! You DONT need pain or suffering to help people. Even you! You dont need torture of any sort to get through to people. The only way that this regime of treatment would be acceptable to me, would be if it pre-screened people, and it only took in people like you.
Even still, making a program out of being tough and hard as if those are good or desireable traits in and of themself is ridiculous. The leaders of the programs are upfront about breaking down and reprogramming people. - Something that did not happen to you. -
Something that 'helped' you only because you're very, very strong inside, but hurts others, is ridiculous. I'm very sure legit treatment based on something other than suffering and breaking children down would have worked on you.
Also... I have trouble believing your familly REALLY knew anything about what was going on. They might have been TOLD it would help you. But they probably knew LESS in the way of details than the regulars here!for nothing can keep it right but their own vigilant and distrustful superintendence.
--Thomas Jefferson
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Niles,
Yep you're right on the message I am conveying. It's not for everyone. They can and have messed up some minds. I wish there was screening.
My family took a gamble. As far as knowing, well they know how strong my will is and knew that I'd be able to work through it. They didn't know everything all the time.
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Well, perrigaud, sitting here today talking to me IN SPITE of the treatment really says a lot.
I'm pretty sure somone like you was having usual teenage 'problems' growing up and would have fixed it just like a cold, program or not.
Frankly I'm unconvinced of the efficacy of the seminars are all. They only HELP people with a very strong mind and well, and hurt others. Do they help more than other methods of treatment that arent mental S&M? I doubt it.
If they did, then they'd only be useful on strong willed knotheads like yourself :razz:
But, thats just a possible scenario. Frankly, I doubt thats the case, and even if it were, its either useless or harmful to the rest of humanity and is WAY, WAY, WAY overused by these programs.
These programs are central to the programs Perrigaud. Without them, you'd just be put in a stark, pleasureless environment for a few years forced to be extremely obedient and self-denying. Then it would all boil down to do as we say to get out treatment, which does nothing but teach them how to be manipulative to leave - or break them. God is a concept by which we measure our pain.
--John Lennon, British songwriter and member of "The Beatles"
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Seminars. Very taboo. Again, they were made extreme for the emotionally shut hard asses such as myself. I knew I was going down fast and hard. I knew it even before the program. I could feel myself slip. Would I have gotten out of it? I don't know for sure but I'm willing to bet no.
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Perrigaud - they werent custom tailored for you or anyone else, It was made by Davild Gilcrease as some sort of psychological equivilant of an overhaul.
Even if you are 'emotionally shut' getting raped psycholgoically before a group is neither ethical or necessary! There are plenty of other ways that more than likely work a lot better.
And I think you would have gotten out. One thing you must remember is part of the program is accepting that without it you would be 'deadinsaneorinjail' - that you are wrong and the only way to be fixed is through the program.
They wouldn't have let you out unless you at least put on a show of that, unless you were 18.
Madness takes its toll. Please have exact change.
--Anonymous
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Maybe. Then again who knows for sure. Maybe I'd a ended up hitting rock bottom (not jail) and still alive. Maybe then I would've stopped the shit I was doing. Maybe not, maybe I'd be still just getting by (not dead or in jail). The program came along and I happened to decided to do something different. Maybe I would have met someone special that would've influenced me to change for the best. The seminars aren't custom tailored but in my opinion I think that they are not for everyone. The program corruptively would suggest it for anyone and do so. That's what I don't agree with at all. I too have seen some people who ended up being really screwed up emotionally.
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The only thing that happened in the seminar was you surviving it, Perrigaud. Thats a good thing - but only for you and people with your constitution psychologically.
As far as "hitting rock bottom" or ending up in jail... you do realize sometime you'd realize what was up and just GROW UP. All teenagers ultimately do this unless something represses them.
Wanna see a fun example of this? My friends mom, 40, I wont name names incase she reads this forum (shes one of my cloest friends!) is pratically still a teenage girl at heart. She got married really, really young. We often finish eachothers thoughts actually. LOL.
And guess what? she has a strong bond with her kids (including my friend) and his friends, and they're doing just fine, even though they have had some troubles.
That right there says a lot. I'm very pro-family but not in the hierarchial, patriarchial cookie-cutter moral-majority kind of way.The right of self-defense is the first law of nature; in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest possible limits. ... and [when] the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any color or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction.
-- St. George Tucker, Judge of the Virginia Supreme Court 1803
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I have a lot of friends whose parents can't support themselves as well as their kids. These parents are violent towards each other and their kids. Now, the cops have never been able to help because neither parent will rat the other one out. Not only that but they just don't assume any responsibility. Living on barely anything cause your mom refuses to work is hard. Knowing that there is violence amongst family is not any way to live. Having a 34 year old father that lives with his mother (your grandmother) and you (7 year old boy) but not your sister cause your mother is also a psychotic irresponsible bitch is no way to live. Having parents that can't hold a steady job and depend on others isn't good. I could go on and on. I've seen a lot. Most are my friends. Rock bottom? Some people don't care to dig themselves out because they think they can't. I don't ever want to settle for less than I am capable of. I guess that's why I work my ass off (I've got 3 jobs) and manage to go to college for financial security as well as peace of mind. I also keep my mind open. I will never consider myself done as far as learning goes.
I have also many non program friends that got their stuff together. My old best friend (from the "bad" days) took a good 7 years to finally buckle down on improving her life. She is one that comes from one of those f'd up families. She could easily blame a lot on her childhood. She did for a while. But now she's in medical school and happy. The happy part is the biggest accomplishment in my opinion. [ This Message was edited by: Perrigaud on 2005-01-21 01:28 ]
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Perrigaud...
You and your own gumption is what made you into what you are now. The program does exactly the opposite of what youd want to do to make someone have a strong will and drive to do things. They break you down and make you dependant on others for direction.
Yes... having awful parents can do a lot to fuck up a child, but not all have to go down with the parents. My only point was GOOD parents always have good kids - at least as far as I've seen so far.
I doubt a program is going to make you dig yourself out. If it did, then you have it within yourself, anyway, to dig yourself out. It just makes people listen when told what to do.
What those kids who have bad parents need is good realtives or good foster care (though I hear horror stories of foster care too...) or someone like you to help them out.
Not a Gilcreaseian seminar or a stark program lifestyle.
Hell, one night, I had a really awful nightmare. I was back in school and some teacher was being a domineering fuck at the lunch table. I was finishing off my food when he DEMNADS we put our utensils and napkins on our plate, stand up, etc, and do as he says.
I play along and then get fed up due to hunger and try to take another bite. We banter back and forth, and then he says "you need a program childhood". I snapped and stood on the table and roared back down at him a number of threats and insults, and that my parents would never sign off on such a thing.
He says hed get acourt to get an order. So, I snap and decide to attack him. Right when I woke up I was throwing a front kick at his face and he blocked with a sharp edged thing he picked up (a tray I think) and I cut my foot and fell down, and I was about to either buttscoot (get on all fours and pull into your guard, a Brazilian Juujutsu term) towards him or try to get up and press my attack.
I found my conscious self in mid air with my blanket and sheet falling down over my outstretched leg. Ugh.
I havent even BEEN in a place like a program and I have nightmares about them!He, who has nothing, and who himself belongs to another, must be defended by him, whose property he is, and needs no arms. But he, who thinks he is his own master, and has what he can call his own, ought to have arms to defend himself, and what he possesses; else he lives precariously, and at discretion.
--James Burgh 1774
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I wish there were something I could do for all the ones that came back hurt and even more fucked up than before. I know that not everyone has a strong mind such as myself to endure such a trying place. All I can do is hope for the best.
Niles,
Can I pm you? I've got a situation that I know you will be brutally honest with me. And since I trust you'll be helpful or at least opinionated I'd like to bring it up to you. Is that ok?
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Certainly.
You can also AIM, YIM, or MSN me anytime.
I even have a cellphone but I dont want to run up the bill.How often, or on what system, the Thought Police plugged in any individual wire was guesswork. It was even conceivable that they watched everybody all the time. But at any rate, they could plug in your wire whenever they wanted to.
George Orwell, 1984
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HMMM. Ok
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Nihl,
There was a link in another forum to an account of writer who got involved in Vistar- an offshoot of Lifespring.
http://www.citypages.com/databank/22/10 ... le9923.asp (http://www.citypages.com/databank/22/1092/article9923.asp)
Excerpt:
In 1969 John Hanley, a 23-year-old college student, was fined $1,000 by the U.S. District Court in Des Moines, Iowa, and placed on five years probation. The social-science major had been selling franchises for toilet-cleaning routes that didn't exist. In 1974, Hanley invented a three-course "human potential" training series, and then founded a company called Lifespring to sell it. Over the next 15 years, nearly a half-million people took the courses at branches around the country, including one in Minneapolis. The company ultimately raked in some $15 million a year.
More than 30 lawsuits were filed against Lifespring, alleging that the training had caused everything from emotional damage to psychotic breakdowns to suicide. The first unfavorable jury verdict came in 1984, when Deborah Bingham, a 30-year-old blackjack dealer, was awarded $800,000. She said she'd been in a psych ward for a month after attending two Lifespring courses. In 1982, after David Priddle jumped off a building, his family accepted an undisclosed sum; so did Artie Barnett's family, when Barnett, who couldn't swim, drowned as fellow participants egged him on. And Gail Renick's family received $450,000 after she died from an asthma attack during a training session. She had been led to believe her medication was unnecessary. Gabriella Martinez testified that she heard her trainer's voice in her head the night she swallowed a bottle of sleeping pills. Lifespring settled the case out of court.
In 1980 ABC's 20/20 aired an investigation of Lifespring. It included an interview with cult expert Dr. John Clark of Harvard Medical School, who said the group practiced mind control and brainwashing. In 1987 Virginia Thomas, who is married to U.S. Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas, told the Washington Post she had had to hide out of state to get away from Lifespring. In 1990 KARE-TV (Channel 11) ran a segment called "Mind Games?" that Lifespring claimed was deceptive and sensationalized. (The Minnesota News Council rejected the company's claim.)
While trainings continued until the mid-Nineties in certain parts of the country, the lawsuits and the bad press crippled the company. In Minneapolis many Lifespring grads were sad, angry, and determined that the work should continue. One of them, Sue Hawkes, founded Vistar in partnership with two California-based Lifespring trainers. She ran the company out of her home in Plymouth. It's a good guess that Hawkes's idea was to grow Vistar into a self-help empire like Lifespring, where people took the training seminars in groups numbering several hundred. It never happened. During my involvement, Level I enrollments hovered between 15 and 50 people. Despite ample free labor, the company couldn't have been very profitable. Unlike Hanley, who invented the seminars for profit, everyone running Vistar had been through the program and they believed in it. I sometimes wonder if that's why they failed.
Today, all of the phone numbers associated with Vistar have been disconnected. There are no new directory listings, no Web pages, no evidence that the organization is still active in Minneapolis.
It hardly matters. There are approximately 3,000 groups like Vistar operating in the U.S. today. Exit counseling has become a viable career, and mind control is an academic subgenre, complete with schools of thought, theories, and counter-theories. Most people who study cults conclude that groups like Vistar's, classified as LGATs (Large Group Awareness Trainings), are pathological, but they disagree about the extent of the damage. Are they cults? Cultlike? In the 15 years since the American Psychological Association released a report condemning LGATs in general, and Lifespring in particular, no one has brokered a clear consensus. This might have something to do with the fact that specificity can be dangerous; lawsuits are an occupational hazard.
Last year the Phoenix New Times reported that Landmark Education, a company that markets a class similar to Vistar's--known as the Forum--was distributing a letter from UC Berkeley's Dr. Margaret Singer stating that their approach does not warrant cult status. The company had sued the professor emeritus of psychology for mentioning Landmark in her book Cults in Our Midst. As part of the settlement, she agreed to write the letter and strike references to the group in later editions of the book. She declined further comment to the New Times reporter, saying, "The SOBs have already sued me once."
Landmark trains 125,000 people annually in 100 cities worldwide, including Minneapolis.
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*sigh* I really hate it when this shit spreads.
I stopped wanting to go to my speech therapist after her boss came in talking about the LGAT she and her daugther went through in the program her daughter went to for depression.... and then subsequently my therapist covered her boss's ass about it.
Trying to reinforce how (valid for most conversations and issues) there are two views, different people have different experiences (perrigaud?) with the same activity, blablabla. Basically cutting me off and shutting me up when I try to bring up the whole fact of if youre being manipulated or BRAINWASHED its hard to say their perception of it is not altered or tainted in some way.
Yeah, just the same as some people respond to rape differently. A rape fantasy being played out with a submissive vs some person off the street will have REAL different experiences wont they?
Some people will just accept what they're told because of who said it. There are not enough jails, not enough policemen, not enough courts to enforce a law not supported by the people.
-- HUBERT H. HUMPHREY, speech (1965)
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There are "seminars" springing up all over the country discussing the movie "What the bleep do we know". What most people do not seem to realize or seem to be naive about is who's behind this movie: http://www.rickross.com/reference/ramtha/ramtha14.html (http://www.rickross.com/reference/ramtha/ramtha14.html)
http://www.rickross.com/reference/ramtha/ramtha10.html (http://www.rickross.com/reference/ramtha/ramtha10.html)
So, yes, here we go anew!
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I think these seminars are being promoted to the general public as well as program parents. A few years ago some friends of ours said they had gone to some psychological seminars in Utah - and that they had gained quite a bit from them. They then started inviting people over to their homes and tried to get them interested in these seminars. They essentially conducted one in their own home. I went to one and was really uncomfortable. We had to pair up with a stranger and share very privte "secrets" we had.
Does anyone know about this? I can't remember what they were called - but the price tag was high -$500 for a weekend. I'm just wondering if this was associated in anyway with the WWASP programs. If so they are finding yet another way to make money. For the most part we inherit our opinions. We are the heirs of habits and mental customs. Our beliefs, like the fashion of our garments, depend on where we were born. We are molded and fashioned by our surroundings.
--Environment is a sculptor -- a painter.
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CW, WWASP is a relatively new organization. I think it was founded in `96 or so? It was based on the Provo Canyon or CEDU program, if memory serves. These, in turn, sprung from Synanon. But Chuck Dederich didn't really invent the method, though he was fond of taking credit.
The basic method is just the same as what was done to American POWs and disidents in Korea during that war. And it's essentially the same as the old time Bible revival preachers. You know the stories, right? They'd come to town to bring the message of the Lord and usually leave a few bastard children behind; taking a good chunk of the town's cash with them.
So I wouldn't assume that these seminars come from WWASP just because they're plying a similar scam. It's as old as the hills, actually. When I first described the program I went through to a friend who grew up in Haiti she said "Yeah, Zombi masters" and proceeded to explain how local "shamen" in her country go about making slaves of vulnerable people there.
All religions have been made by men.
--Napoleon Bonaparte, French emperor
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WWASP's main influence is LifeSpring. Bob Lichfield, WWASP's founder, and David Gilcrease, who runs Resource Realizations / Premier Educational, are both former LifeSpring trainers. Look at the Resource Realizations web site and you will see several employees who used to work for LifeSpring. Nevertheless, whoever runs the LGAT, it is only the details that change the overall process remains the same.
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There is a lot of info about est/Lifespring in this lengthy thread:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?mo ... rt=0&Sort= (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic=3865&forum=9&start=0&Sort=)
Starting around pg4:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?mo ... t=30&Sort= (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic=3865&forum=9&start=30&Sort=)
Can also Search WWF for the term Lifespring.
This thread links to another message board re: the seminars.
http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.ph ... 37&forum=9 (http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=5537&forum=9)
People pay large sums of money (1500+) for these seminars. In addition to the original, there are many offshoots and bastardized versions out there.
Advertising is usually word of mouth and past participants are relied on to recruit friends and family.
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Hey thanks for the information. It was interesting - the seminars did cost upwards of $500 a weekend. Most were held in Utah. Participants were encouraged to recruit people and what was really odd was that my friend was conducting the meeting. We were asked to pare up with someone we didn't know and then share some intimate detail. It was very weird. We were taught how to truly listen to someone else. The purpose of all of this was to improve our relationships. My friends were really taken in by all of this. I just thought it was really strange. I went to this recruitment meeting in 2000 or 2001.
God is the Asylum of Ignorance.
--Baruch Spinoza, Dutch-Jewish philosopher
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It sounded very much like the Resource Academy or a branch of it. Here's something from their web-site.
The Resource Academy is a high level learning institute dedicated to providing the core competency skills of facilitating personal growth and coaching for excellence in others. All academy courses focus on a fundamental belief of the ontological connection all individuals share with others.
The recognition that each person already has all the answers and resources required to achieve what they want in their life. The Resource Academy for Facilitation and Coaching increase awareness of how people BE versus what they DO as a means to create the results and life they want.
The Resource Academy is lead by Senior Facilitators and Master Coaches who are committed and passionate about making a difference in the world and in the lives of others..
Quantum Coaching I
Quantum Coaching II
Facilitator Certification Training
Neuro Linguistic Program
Real criminals walk free every day to rape, rob, and murder again because the courts are so busy finding consensual criminals guilty of hurting no one but themselves.... To free cells for consensual criminals, real criminals are put on the street every day.
Peter McWilliams
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Yep, these seminars have been used way before WWASP. In fact, a lot of corporations use them as team-building experiences for their employees.
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On 2005-02-17 02:11:00, Perrigaud wrote:
"Yep, these seminars have been used way before WWASP. In fact, a lot of corporations use them as team-building experiences for their employees. "
They have, indeed. Check out this article:
http://www.factnet.org/Margaret_Thaler_ ... place.html (http://www.factnet.org/Margaret_Thaler_Singer/Intruding_into_the_Workplace.html)