Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: alicia1981 on October 11, 2004, 11:58:00 PM
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I stumbled upon a story about practices at Straight, Inc and I was appalled. I scoured the net for more information and read multiple horror stories about these facilities. Now I can't get them out of my head. I have never been in one but if I had been, I can say with certainty that I would have committed suicide. To be given over to strangers simply because my family trusts them and to be molested or abused by those strangers would have absolutely shattered my naive pre-teen world view.
I don't want ANY human to be unjustly imprisoned or abused. I cannot stand it that these things have been happening in our country without extreme public outcry - so I want to add my voice to those that are speaking out now. I have been looking for ways to do so and I'm thankful for the organizations that I mention below.
The fact that children are handed over to these facilities by their own parents it the ultimate breach of parental responsibility. People say that the parents don't know to whom they are committing their kids, that the facilities produce slick brochures and glowing recommendations from other parents. Those who know the truth need to broadcast it every way they can to combat this deception. Any parent who gives a damn should look beyond the facilities and their spokespeople when investigating them. (visit http://www.isaccorp.org (http://www.isaccorp.org) for tips) Parents are supposed to protect their children, not hand them over to be victimized by such monsters. At http://www.thestraights.com (http://www.thestraights.com) , the author establishes this wise rule: "We shall tolerate no treatment program where children can not talk, in private, with their parents."
That the government aids and sanctions these organizations makes the situation even more chilling. There will always be sadists, rapists and abusers that torment people who can't defend themselves. Our government is tasked with imprisoning and incapacitating these people, not sanctioning their atrocities. We are tasked with holding our government accountable. Contact your representatives and find out how they vote on these issues; the five minutes you spend searching for the names of your representatives is worth it.
If you know what happens in these places but you don't take any action, you are complicit in the abuse that continues today; if you don't do anything to expose these facilities to the wider population then you might as well close this window because you don't really care. If you are a parent who hands your children over to these people, it is the same as abusing them yourself. In our internet age, there is simply no excuse for ignorance. It's becoming clear to me that if a bad facility exists and the kids get out alive, someone on the net is talking about them. I am so glad I found http://www.isaccorp.org (http://www.isaccorp.org) today so that I can help expose these horrors and replace the officials that enable them.
Using the media and the web to organize and bring these criminals to justice appears to be very effective. I want to encourage survivors to go to http://www.ripoffreport.com (http://www.ripoffreport.com) and expose these abusive businesses for what they are. It's a good way to warn other parents who might be doing research on these places and get the message out to an audience that has no tolerance for abusive businesses. I will not accept a society that condones a system in which parents can imprison their unruly children under anything but the strictest standards of transparency and community oversight.
[ This Message was edited by: alicia1981 on 2004-10-11 22:59 ]
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Alicia, I know what goes on in these places, because I graduated from one of these places. I too, since I graduated, have read these same horror stories. And I too know that they are scarry. But believe me, I am positive that the things they say that go on in these places isn't true. All of those stories you stumble apon are from angry kids that left, before graduation, and are angry, and try and get them shut down. Please, you seem like it is something new that you just found out. Before you get this idea that these places are so horrible, please do more readings, and find the graduates of these places and read about them. I graduated, and I know that these places did truly help to save my life. That sounds korny I know, but it is true. Please, I know it is extremely hard to actually find the graduates, and that makes it seem that no good comes from these places. But take my word for it there are hundreds of thousands of us out there that did graduate that are grateful for those places. We weren't happy why we were there, don't get me wrong. But now looking back, we do realize it truly was a great life changing expierence.
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I guess I need to point out very clearly to you that I am oppossed to the restrictive programs that cut children off from their parents and/or programs that allow unqualified individuals to exercise control over children. TRANSPARENCY means full disclosure about their practices and COMMUNITY OVERSIGHT means allowing others to inspect the facility to ensure it is adhering to rigorous standards of care.
I refuse to believe that one person can tell me that every story of abuse in these programs is fabricated. How dare you presume to know what every residential facility is like! I'm glad your particular experience did you so much good, but just because some people have good experiences in some facilities doesn't mean that everyone else does. Thousands of good results do not warrant dismissal of one person's torture.
If you are going to be an advocate for residential treatment centers, I suggest you work to eradicate those that give the industry a bad name. [ This Message was edited by: alicia1981 on 2004-10-11 22:42 ]
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I agree with you, I cannot guarentee you that there was never maybe one case of abuse at a facility somewhere. But I can tell you that I graduated, and in the time that I gradauted from the program I never witnessed or heard a single act of abuse. And when I did graduate and met hundreds of other graduates from other facilities, I heard from them too that there was no abuse at their facilities.
How dare me to tell you? How dare you tell me. How can you tell me that you know more than I do on this subject? Were you in the program? Did you spend 13 months in one of these places? I doubt it. I spent 13 months of my life working to graduate. Now that I have, I am very proud of it. I wouldn't trade it for anything. People like you, read one article about the abuse at these places, and then think that you are an expert. You think that you are so right, that when someone like me comes along that actually has been there comes along you are to stubburn to even listen.
Yes, the kids are kept there. They are not allowed to leave. But lets remember, these same kids before they went to the program were the ones running away from home saying they would rather live any where but with their parents. I don't agree with every aspect of the program. But I do believe that it did save my life. It may sound korny, but it is true. I feel pretty confident in saying that it also saved the lives of almost all of the other graduates from any program world wide.
If kids were truly so miserable there, why is there such a large number that choose to stay there on their own once they turn 18. I know that I did. I turned 18 only four months into my program. I stayed. Why? Because I decided that I wanted something different for my life. That may sound like a "brainwash" term, but it isn't. It is just the truth.
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Brown said: "How dare me to tell you? How dare you tell me. How can you tell me that you know more than I do on this subject? Were you in the program? Did you spend 13 months in one of these places? I doubt it. I spent 13 months of my life working to graduate. Now that I have, I am very proud of it. I wouldn't trade it for anything. People like you, read one article about the abuse at these places, and then think that you are an expert. You think that you are so right, that when someone like me comes along that actually has been there comes along you are to stubburn to even listen."
Were you in ALL of the facilities? No. Were you present during EVERY case of supposed abuse? No. Are you capable of actually absorbing my words? Apparently not. You clearly don't understand my argument or my concerns, which means that your rebuttals to it are as solid as a fart in the wind.
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Oh, I understand your arguments, and I admit I wasn't at all of the facilities. But I said that I got to meat alot of others from different facilities. They would have mentioned it if there was people being abused. As far as Spring Creek goes, the facility doesn't have that many people on it. I knew all of the other kids there. By the time I graduated, I think that I could call of them my friends. And I can tell you that NONE of them ever mentioned the abuse, or did I ever see signs of the abuse. I am not saying at all that there never has been abuse. All I am saying is that in my very broad expierence of the program, I have never come accross solid evididence that there every was abuse.
Another thing I just want to point out. I was 18 when I graduated. There was at least 50-60 other 18 year olds there with me. Any one of them could have left at any point. I would think that if there was all of this abuse going on, there wouldn't be all of those 18 year olds still there. I don't know any kid that would stay at a place where they were being starved or beaten. Just something to think about.
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You're not really saything anything we have not heard before.
You deny all the accusations, but say "I can't be sure nothing hasn't ever happened anywhere". You say you believe it saved your life... just like everyone else.
You say they choose to stay after 18 even though we've heard howt hey could be forced to stay through further coersion or simply because they'd be put out on the street and not taken back in by their parents.
I've talked to plenty of people who were *IN* the programs themselves and heard otherwise. I've seen the stories of suicides and court cases where the plaintiffs won. Plenty of places have been closed down.
As alicia said, TRANSPARENCY is key to fixing the problem. There isn't any! Its people breaking ridiculous oaths of secrecy and snooping around finding things out.
If they really ARE doing no harm why not bother to demonstrate it? There is a SEVERE problem with too much secrecy and not nearly enough oversight or regulation. Its not just these programs, its mental health treatment and the whole damn 'teen help industry'.
Also, from what little information I have been able to come by, it seems the only model for this change is a total breakdown of your self, your emotions, your will, your ability to question or think for yourself until you submit (or act like it) and accept what you are taught, do as told and be a obedient. Behavior modification by taking everything away and giving it back through more and more blind obedience and then through the same level system making the kids in the higher ones control the lower ones.
I've seen the seminars to be little more than inducing extreme psychological and emotional distress and making you have a breakdown (aka psycho cryfest) for days at a time and feed you bullshit, then have you hug eachother and play music like the theme to rocky. It sounds stupid but when you're broken down that far it can have an effect on you.
Basicaly, a 24/7 BDSM (with total power exchange) experience for quite a long time, except its non consentual, you have no safe word or way out, and its a damn minor, and forget them getting off, they don't even let them masturbate! Oh joy, thats so damn good for their development. A daily mindfuck. Yeah, weird analogy, but thats the only other thing I could think of to compare it to.
You get rid of the extreme secrecy, institute some reform and regulation and transparency, build the parent/child bond instead of break it, and help people without brainwashing, behavior modification, suffering, humiliation, emotional and psychological breakdowns, and give them an education so they're not dependant on you, and give them ways to contact people for grievances, tell if abuse does happen, We'll get off their ass, because something will be in place to protect them and get this information out.
By the way, if anyone read this far, I had problems as a teenager because I had poor social skills. This made me very depressed and angry because of how bad people treated me. Had I been sent to one of these camps it would not have helped me at all. I'd just come out obedient and never talking about any negative feelings of my own. It would have done nothing to help and would have probably hurt me and I would have stayed a damn hermit, outwardly cold and uninterested in human contact but inwardly very, very, very sad and alone.
Wanna know what my problem was? Aspurgers Syndrome. Mild Autism. I simply did not understand people and was 'weird'.
Wanna know how I was fixed? I had a speech therapist and met some good friends to love me, accept me, make me feel good, make me feel accepted, and give me practice with social interaction and let me enjoy myself and have fun. Self esteem is a wonderful thing, and so is freedom. That did more for me any drug or camp ever could.
Being a jackass with my friends and even the family of one, yelling and laughing with them when I play a card game and stuff myself with pizza, playing video games, riding around with them and eating at some greasy spoon at midnight was exactly the life changing experience I needed :grin:
I'll admit some people are so messed up they really do need some sort of lock in program so they can't run out and get hit by a car or stab someone, but those are very very rare, few and far between, and not in these programs anyway. Feeling good about yourself, having true acceptance and *love* instead of *hate*, pleasure instead of pain would probably go a lot farther than what happened to you. Unfortunately you got stuck with people who feel a need to punish and dominate people under 18 and have control and authority.
Oh, and its a lot less expensive.You should be allowed to do whatever you want with your own person and property, as long as you don't physically harm the person or property of a nonconsenting other.
Peter McWilliams - Ain't Nobody's Business If I Do
[ This Message was edited by: Nihilanthic on 2004-10-12 01:27 ]
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If you have heard everything that I am saying, then why does it not seem to even possess even the smallest ounce of truth to you? I don't understand. How can you read something, on the internet no less, and believe it as if it were written in a text book? I don't expect you to read what I have to say and then completely change what you think. All I am asking is that the people that pretend to be experts on this, when all they really know is what they have read on the internet.
You say that the only reason people stay is because they are affraid of being out on their own if they leave. If they were being abused, I would think that even the thought of them being on their own wouldn't keep them in the facilities. I had an exit plan like you are talking about where I was pretty much on my own. I stayed. And to this day I am still happy that I did stay. I didn't like it while I was there, but now looking back, I do admit that I gained alot. How do you explain the people in the programs that stay even when they have exit plans of going home to their parents? Because you know there are those kids out there too.
I agree with both you and ALicia, I think that Transparency is a good idea. I was there, and I know that there is nothing for these facilities to hide. If I were in charge, I would let anyone to go on through. I don't know the politics behind it, but it isn't because they are hiding anything. Because on any given day parents that are thinking about sending their kid their can take a tour and see whatever they want. So while they don't just let reporters walk around, they do have a little bit of "Transparency".
The other thing you mention is that they should build the parent/child bond instead of break it. I agree with you. That is the goal. And for most it works. At first your right, they do break it. They break it and have the parent work out any anger they have toward their kid, and they have the kid do the same. Then when that is done, the PC's start. The PC's intention is to give the parents and the kid the oppurtunity to rebuild the bond. The only way this works is if the parents and the kid stay in the program till graduation. Most quit half way through and then are shocked when it doesn't work. The second half, in my oppinion, is the part where the real work gets done.
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Its not just 'read on the internet' its acutal personal communication, one on one stuff that I go by. Its also the lots of smoke and looking for the fire.
Your saying if they were really abused they would leave anyway doesn't mean a whole lot. Coersion and having your will broken kind of can make you act certain ways. Same for actual brainwashing... both of those are complaints and accusations against these programs. Plus if you think abuse was okay you wouldn't think it was wrong, now would you?
One thing I am totally and utterly against is cutting someone off, breaking this bond, and having some strangers getting involved in making a relationship set back up as they see fit. They have no regulation or accreditation and it should be a parent/child thing, not have some people given money to make the kid submissive to the parent.
Furthermore the whole model of locking a kid up and using pain, terror, suffering, and breaking the will of them to 'fix' a damn thing is just plain wrong. Look up real therapy and read how I was 'helped'.
Being kept captive in a horrible setting without any fun, any love, any kind of pleasure in your life, having to be a slave to the idiots running the program isn't going to fix any real problems. Its going to make them compliant and obedient, so they do as they're told. It 'fixes' 'bad behavior' by making them a slave.
Again, if they start being transparent (which you smugly think is a good idea) and offer ACTUAL HELP instead of just torture through various means we won't be so horrified by this. Paying thousands of dollars to have people make life miserable for a child and keep them from having normal necessities like social interaction, development of their individuality and sexuality, not letting them enjoy anything, and such things as *gasp* an education, happiness, love and trust is bullshit!
Where's the actual help and therapy? Where's the normal development? Where's the love? Where's the nuturing? Where's the education? Where's the social interaction? Why is 24/7 surveilance required on a kid going in for being a 'basketcase' with low self esteem and depression? Why does the night staff and even upper level students watch everyone to make sure they don't masturbate? Whats the freaking deal here? If you think about why you hate me, you might find that it's not me.
--Antigen
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I have something that you can read out of a textbook. Look at "A Guide to Treatments that Work - 2nd Edition" on pages 76-78.
Also look at my threads here (Under Parents Who Still Sing The Programs Praises...):
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=20#63699 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=6663&forum=9&start=20#63699)
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=20#63698 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=6663&forum=9&start=20#63698)
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On 2004-10-11 21:15:00, Brown wrote:
Please, I know it is extremely hard to actually find the graduates, and that makes it seem that no good comes from these places.
Brown, why is that? Why is it so hard to find graduates? I don't do anything to find the people who post here. I just let people post and others come along either by word of mouth or when they search on the name of their program.
So why is it so difficult to find supportive graduates? How would you suggest going about finding them?...it is worth discussing radical changes, not in the expectation that they will be adopted promptly but for two other reasons. One is to construct an ideal goal, so that incremental changes can be judged by whether they move the institutional structure toward or away from that ideal. The other reason is very different. It is so that if a crisis requiring or facilitating radical change does arise, alternatives will be available that have been carefully developed and fully explored."
Milton Friedman
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Alicia,
I am a graduate of one of these programs. Unlike Brown I did see abuses. I personally witnessed many of the things some of these people have spoken of. As a parent now I would never place my child in the hands of strangers and be told when I can contact my child. I am against using food, exercise, and relationships as punishments. These things are essential for any healthy person.
Glad you had a positive experience Brown. But don't say the negative comments are from people who didn't finish these programs. I am a graduate who says abuse does and can happen.
Thanks for your interest Alicia. It is refreshing to know someone out in the universe unrelated to these programs believes us.
The Graduate
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100 deaths during/after 'treatment' in the behavior modification industry is a concern that all parents should take seriously. Unfortunately, the cases of psychological damage are more difficult to track.
Residential Treatment for Youth: Do No Harm!
http://www.wpic.pitt.edu/aacp/Vol-15-3/Youth.html (http://www.wpic.pitt.edu/aacp/Vol-15-3/Youth.html)
When Interventions Harm: Peer Groups and Problem Behavior
http://www.apa.org/journals/amp/amp549755.html (http://www.apa.org/journals/amp/amp549755.html)
Towards a New Alternative to Behavior Modification and Understanding Why Consequences is Not an Effective Tool
http://www.postinstitute.com/articles/a ... iormod.htm (http://www.postinstitute.com/articles/altbehaviormod.htm)
Creativity and What Blocks It
http://deoxy.org/creative.htm (http://deoxy.org/creative.htm)
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On 2004-10-11 23:57:00, Brown wrote:
How can you read something, on the internet no less, and believe it as if it were written in a text book?
This is beside the point, but it might be worth keeping in the back of your mind for anyone who's the type to be drawn to old books wherever you might find them laying around.
Pick a topic, any topic, and look it up in as many text or reference books as you can. They can't all be right because they're all contradictory. Text books are written in essentially the same way as websites; people writing what they believe (or sometimes just what they'd like to believe).
Anyway, back to the point. There's plenty of freelance testimony, court testimony, journalistic reporting, etc. about psychological and, sometimes, physical abuse that occures in Synanon style programs. You may not view as abusive what all these different people tell us about OP. But, in the more commonly accepted reality, right now, as we fritter away the time typing to each other, some pretty heavyweight government types are arguing back and forth over whether or not it is legal or ethical to treat enemy combatants in exactly the same way. Doesn't that make you wonder a little bit?
And I understand completely why someone over 18 would stay in the Program. I understand that the term "brainwashing" can be pejorative and insulting. But, since the 50's or so, it has become part of our common speech. Here is an excellent crash course (hour or two, if you read very, very carefully and do a little fact checking)
The 8th Step
Understanding Brainwashing, Mind Control & Aggression
Home
Why is this site named "The 8th Step"?
Before Straight - Synanon, Inc. and The Seed, Inc.
Straight, Inc. & It's Spawn
The Exploding Troubled Teen 'Help' Industry
Troubled Teen Industry - BREAKING NEWS !
Troubled Teen Industry - Online Journal
Prominent Connections
Understanding Brainwashing, Mind Control & Aggression
Links
What is Brainwashing & Does it Really Exist? - Definies 'brainwashing' and includes a 1956 document on brainwashing from the CIA to the FBI.
The Stockholm Syndrome - The Stockholm Syndrome explains why some of us were sucked into the program's ideology and actually ended up doing spekaing engagements for these abusive treatment centers. Hence, this is where the controversy comes into play; why some claimed it saved their lives, while others cursed the program for their abusiveness.
The Stanford Prison Experiment - This experiment is said to support situational attributes of behavior rather than dispostional attribution. It seemed to entail that the situation caused the subjects' behavior rather than anything inherent in their individual personalities. It is also used to illustrate The Theory of Cognitive Dissonance and the power of authority.
The Milgram Experiment - A lesson in depravity, peer pressure and the power of authority. This experiment was intended to measure the willingness of a subject to obey an authority who instructs the subject to do something that may conflict with the subject's personal conscience.
A Theory of Cognitive Dissonance - This is a theory which was proposed by psychologist Leon Festinger in 1957. Cognitive dissonance is a state that an individual reaches one he has an imbalance between cognitions. For the purpose of this theory cognitions are defined as being an attitude, emotion, belief or value, or evn a mixture of these cognitions.
The Bobo Doll Experiment - The Bobo doll experiment was conducted by Albert Bandura to study aggressive patterns of behavior. One of the experiment's conclusions was that people can learn through vicarious reinforcement.This shows how aggressive behavior is modeled. Click here to see a video on the Bobo Doll Experiment
click here to read full articles http://mysite.verizon.net/res0g8bp/the8 ... /id44.html (http://mysite.verizon.net/res0g8bp/the8thstep2/id44.html)
Finally, a bit of unsoliceted advice from an old stranger. When you speak fondly of the program to people who feel they were hurt by it, you can expect them to be angry and to sometimes respond w/ hostility. Please don't take it personally. It's just that talk like that identifies you as being just like, or even one of, those people who hurt them and lied about it.
Forgiveness is divine. Forgetfulness is just a mental dysfunction.
--Antigen
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To the Graduate,
I am sorry that you say you saw abuses. What facility did you go to? When were you there? What did you see? I am really interested. Because you certainly don't sound like all the other graduates that post. I am not saying that I don't believe you, it is just really hard to believe you. I am actually glad you posted. You are the first person since I have started posting that says they were a graduate and that they saw the abuses. Every other kid that posted that has been to the program has pretty much said that they agree with what I am saying.
Yes I know all about all of these experiments and so on. Lets talk about the Bobo Doll experiment. The experiment had kids play with a Bobo Doll, and then a group of adults came in, and beat the crap out of it. Then when the adult left, the kids proceeded to beat the crap out of the doll. Lets put that into the program world. If there was a kid getting beat day in and day out, you would think that all of the other kids would also beat on him too. All of the testimonies state that it wasn't all of the students that got beat, just a few of them. So if you say that it is like that experiment, then there is something missing. Because I haven't read a testimony yet where the student says that they were beat by all the other students.
Stockholm syndrome would only apply to people that were in the program. It would have no affect on parents, or people from outside the program. The Stockholm Syndrome says that captives start to side with their captives, and I have to dispute you on that too. Because their isn't any graduate that wants to stay in the program. When it comes time to go home, they are more than happy to. Stockholm syndrome says that the "captives" start to side with their captures and they wouldn't want to leave that place. The one thing that graduates and people that left(angry before graduation) is that we all wanted to leave.
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Brown,
One question why did you ask my experience and then immediately slip into psycholoigal studies. Want my experience? Here is a summary: I was 14 upon arrival (non drug user)honor student with a typical teenage attitude. I thought I was smarter than 99% of adults..in short I was a teenager with an attitude. What a shock huh? Personally I don't expect you to believe me b/c people often choose to deny what doesn't fit their view of the world.
But I digress. I choose to comply to avoid abuse. I knew I had 2 choices 1)graduate or 2) be in that institution for 4 years (until my eighteenth birthday.) So I played the game I said all the right things and in doing so hurt others along the way. As part of my "treatment" I had to confront others, I had to belittle them into "getting honest", I also helped restrain them physically. So please don't waste time doubting my story b/c I could write a page on my experience but I don't need your acceptance or acknowlegdement.
Once again I am a graduate and I first hand saw abuses. Also Brwon all graduates of my program helped abuse others. So this could explain why they choose to state "it saved my life" rather than maybe I am someone else's abuser. I am sure there is a psychological model for this syndrome also, if you care to research it.
The Graduate
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Graduate, what facility were you out, you keep leaving that out. It is a pretty easy question to answer is it not? Did you graduate, or did you leave early?
I am sorry if you thought that you thought that you had to comply to avoid abuse. If you want to hear, when I was in the program, I followed the rules. But as far as believing everything they told me, and taking as gospal, I never did. If you thought that you had to do that in order to leave, then I am sorry. That would be horrible. My whole point in posting here is just to give another side of the story. I think that if you really think back and think about what happened when you were there, you might see things differently. I don't know though. Maybe it was you that was brainwashed by the people that have drilled it into your head that you were abused, and that you helped abuse others.
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Brown,
I was in Straight. You don't have to patronize me, but I can see the bullying tactics weren't lost on you. I have had plenty of time out of my program to think about it and what happened. Again I want to reiterate people often become hostile when their beliefs are not supported. Bottom line is I saw abuse and after 18 months I graduated...thus the name The Graduate. Thank you for the wonderful support. Jeez it is just a different opinion, calm down, call your program friends if you only want your view point supported.
The Graduate
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How long have you been out? Because you and alot of the other people on this site have said something that I can see. That is that I only recently graduate. Your right, I could have a different oppinion in a couple years.
I have no problem with different points of views. If I did, I would just post on the BBS. I wouldn't have tried to find these sites. Why did I find it? Because I just wanted people to be able to here what I have to say. When I read through alot of the posts when I first found these sites, I realized there was like no one that even mentions that things might be different than what the web gives these places.
I said this on another post on another thread, but I cannot say what happened years ago. All I can say(which Deborah has pointed out) is what I myself expierenced or what I myself talked to others about. So I can only say that in the time I was at Spring Creek there was no abuse. And that from the graduates I have talked to, there was no abuse at their facilities either.
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What would a parent rather have - a child in the juvenile system where they don't have anything to do but support each other in their attitudes and where real abuse happens, or having to make the decision to send your child away to a program that works to bring the whole family back together and become healthy again?
Brown - since you've been asked why it's hard to find graduates, what about asking your grad buddies to start posting on here?
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On 2004-10-12 15:36:00, Brown wrote:
So I can only say that in the time I was at Spring Creek there was no abuse.
It really depends on how you define abuse.
"a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in defence of custom."--Thomas Paine, Common Sense
Here's a scenario I've read and heard about over and over again from people who've been in various Synaon based or Synaon-like programs. A kid is singled out, in their turn, and required to discuss their sexual experience and private thoughts before a group of peers.
I never thought of this as abusive at the time. But is it ever appropriate to require a kid to divulge sensitive, personal information about themselves to a group of other kids? Can you see how that might be traumatic for some people?
I'm guessing that, like I did over 20 years ago, you just threw them a bone (no pun intended) and didn't divulge anything really important. But some kids weren't that savvy. They actually told the truth about their darkest secrets to the entire assembled body of their fellow captives, only to have this sensitive material thrown up in their faces later. Either that or staff told the group what the kid had written in a diary or what the parents had told them, true or not.
That, btw, is one reason why I insist on allowing anonymous posting to these forums. Even years later, some people do not wish to give their real names for fear that someone will remember some horrible confession.
But can you understand how you and another kid in the same place at the same time can view the same events very, very differently?
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be.
--Thomas Jefferson
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On 2004-10-12 20:43:00, Anonymous wrote:
"What would a parent rather have - a child in the juvenile system where they don't have anything to do but support each other in their attitudes and where real abuse happens, or having to make the decision to send your child away to a program that works to bring the whole family back together and become healthy again?
Well, having been in a program and, for a short while, in juvenile detention, I can tell you without reservation that the program was far more stressfull and damaging than detention.
Detention was boring. That was the worst part. After 2 years in the Program, I was already used to having no privacy, no comfort and no autonomy. The major difference was that, in detention, no one was harassing me constantly. No one demanded that I tell them everything I was thinking. I didn't get in trouble for not smiling. If anything, another inmate might ask why I was so down, but let it go if I didn't want to talk about it. I'm not exagerating when I say that it was like a vacation. My worst fear while I was there was that my parents and the Program would be successful in forcing me back into group.
People everywhere enjoy believing things that they know are not true. It spares them the ordeal of thinking for themselves and taking responsibility for what they know.
BROOKS ATKINSON (1894-1984), Once Around The Sun, 1951.
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Ironic isn't it that some programs punish for smiling while other punish if you don't smile.
And all the while, teens are the guinea pigs in their experimental treatment laboratories.
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On 2004-10-12 08:58:00, Brown wrote:
"To the Graduate,
I am sorry that you say you saw abuses. What facility did you go to? When were you there? What did you see? I am really interested. Because you certainly don't sound like all the other graduates that post. I am not saying that I don't believe you, it is just really hard to believe you. I am actually glad you posted. You are the first person since I have started posting that says they were a graduate and that they saw the abuses. Every other kid that posted that has been to the program has pretty much said that they agree with what I am saying.
Yes I know all about all of these experiments and so on. Lets talk about the Bobo Doll experiment. The experiment had kids play with a Bobo Doll, and then a group of adults came in, and beat the crap out of it. Then when the adult left, the kids proceeded to beat the crap out of the doll. Lets put that into the program world. If there was a kid getting beat day in and day out, you would think that all of the other kids would also beat on him too. All of the testimonies state that it wasn't all of the students that got beat, just a few of them. So if you say that it is like that experiment, then there is something missing. Because I haven't read a testimony yet where the student says that they were beat by all the other students.
Stockholm syndrome would only apply to people that were in the program. It would have no affect on parents, or people from outside the program. The Stockholm Syndrome says that captives start to side with their captives, and I have to dispute you on that too. Because their isn't any graduate that wants to stay in the program. When it comes time to go home, they are more than happy to. Stockholm syndrome says that the "captives" start to side with their captures and they wouldn't want to leave that place. The one thing that graduates and people that left(angry before graduation) is that we all wanted to leave."
I have been out of the program for about a decade. But I always knew what I saw and witnessed was abusive. I didn't have some post graduation epiphany. One major difference between our experiences that I can see is that you said you needed to change your behaviors. I on the other hand was not and am not today a drug user. I didn't have a "problem" they could fix. All I needed was a few years to grow up and mature, not a youth treatment facility.
The Graduate
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Hi Brown
I'm glad you had a positive experience. I am sure there are genuinely helpful programs out there. Those that are truly beneficial and legitimate would have no issue with transparency and tighter regulation. It would expose all programs for what they are, good, bad or horrifying.
I graduated from Straight Inc 22 years ago. I took staff training, led the sibling raps on Saturdays, stayed in the 7 step society for 18 mos., spoke at local kiwanis clubs, high schools and churches. I did some talk radio while still on my phases. Not only was it a great way to advance but I genuinely believed the program rhetoric that I was sharing.
Of course I also believed that I had to control every thought in order to be happy, that feelings were just a momentary lapse of reason to be corrected with rational thinking, that I deserved all the things that happened to me there and forever after, that I was worthless.
And the abuse was real. I personally witnessed a girl get punched in the face by a senior staff member & get dragged across the room by her hair. I personally attended stakeouts attempting to capture and return kids who had escaped the program. I saw dozens of kids carving into their faces, arms, legs with anything they could find in an attempt to escape their overwhelming misery. I personally exercised in a windowless, air conditionless warehouse in central FL until I had rug burns, I personally saw girls faint or drink water until they threw up, I personally had my diary entry about losing my virginity read to 300 or so of my peers and was told what a selfish, worthless slut I was until I broke down, I personally was denied more than 4 hours sleep for weeks at a time, I personally was on the peanut butter & jelly diet for 30 days at a time-3 times, I personally moved from foster home to foster home weekly sometimes daily I personally was denied private bathroom privileges, I personally was denied the right to use the restroom at all on several occassions and was forced to go on the floor in front of hundreds, I personally was confronted and humiliated for using the bathroom, I personally cleaned up my urine as well as that of two other girls with my hands while the staff watched and giggled.
I was 15 and had smoked pot for less than a year.
And before you begin with the "you must be some kind of loser blaming all your troubles on the program" let me fill you in. I was married for 17 years, I have two children and have a successful career. When I was finally terminated from straight after my 3 year involvement, I was determined never to look back. And I never did.
Until my husband died and I found that my coping skills were somewhat compromised. I was struggling with grief and depression and an intense fear of vulnerability. I entered therapy and for the first time began to look inside and try and understand.
In spite of my experience I wouldn't dream of coming to this website and pronouncing that all treatment facilities are bad and must be closed down. There is simply no way I could know about every program or every individual's experience. Likewise there is no way for you to know about every program or every individual experience. Can you imagine how offended you would be if I responded to your post by saying you were crazy you couldn't have had a good experience because all programs are bad. You must not have graduated, been in long enough or done it right if you think they're useful at all. You must be a liar or stupid or drugged. Pretty offensive right? That's how your post came across to me.
Please do share your experience. But it will be received more openly if you speak about YOUR experience vs making all encompassing, sweeping statements and judgements about other programs or the people who were in them.
End of lecture. ::soapbox::
Talk amongst yourselves......Allow the President to invade a neighboring nation whenever he shall deem it necessary to repel an invasion, and you allow him to do so whenever he may choose to say he deems it necessary for such purpose, and you allow him to make war at pleasure. Study to see if you can fix any limit to his power in this respect, after having given him so much as you propose. If today he should choose to say he thinks it necessary to invade Canada to prevent the British from invading us, how could you stop him? You may say to him,--"I see no probability of the British invading us"; but he will say to you, "Be silent: I see it, if you don't."
--Abraham Lincoln
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::bump::
Insanity in individuals is something rare - but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule.
--Friedrich Nietzsche
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On 2004-10-12 08:58:00, Brown wrote:
"Stockholm syndrome says that the "captives" start to side with their captures and they wouldn't want to leave that place. The one thing that graduates and people that left(angry before graduation) is that we all wanted to leave."
If you wanted to leave, why didn't you? You said you were 18 after 4 months in, but then stayed another 10 months willingly. Could it be that you were afraid of taking the exit plan? The 18 year olds who stayed were sell outs, pathetic. Afraid to go out on your own, and willing to do exactly what mommy and daddy wanted out of fear.
On 2004-10-12 08:58:00, Brown wrote:
As far as Spring Creek goes, the facility doesn't have that many people on it. I knew all of the other kids there. By the time I graduated, I think that I could call of them my friends. And I can tell you that NONE of them ever mentioned the abuse, or did I ever see signs of the abuse. I am not saying at all that there never has been abuse. All I am saying is that in my very broad expierence of the program, I have never come accross solid evididence that there every was abuse.
You are so full of shit it isn't even funny. There has always been at least 300 hundred kids or more, and I hear there's even more now. You met and talked to everyone? All your friends? lmao
I hope people who never were at Spring Creek realize how full of shit you are, because this is unbelievable. You are a full fledge WWASPie, and totally ignorant to what goes on at that facility. But then again, the 18 years olds get it good, and I see how that could happen. I mean, they wouldn't want to give you a reason to leave- they're making a shitload of cash off your parents.
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Anon, please flesh that out a little bit for us. If you're confined to the extent that even older, higher level WWASP kids are, 300 ppl is really not a lot of people. There were usually around a hundred, sometimes less, in our group at Straight. If you had asked me then, I would have said I "knew" every one of them very well. But you find out later, as time goes on, that you really don't know them at all.
I also would have sworn at the time that I never witnessed or experienced abuse at Straight. But that's because I'd accepted the Straight, Inc. definition of what is and is not abusive. One of the most disturbing things about the whole experience was that there were one or two incidents that, even in my addled state, I recognized at the time as being just plain wrong. But I couldn't let it show, let alone actually say anything or get any reaction from anyone else who was there (you understand why, I'm sure). And so quickly put them out of my mind as a matter of self preservation. It was a long, long time before I remembered either of those events specifically or, generally, the day to day grind and how we all sort of went along a step at a time till all that lunacy seemed perfectly normal and sensible.
So let's talk about some of that. Seems asthough there's very little on the net about CCM. I'm guessing it's not the most overtly abusive of the WWASP facilities. But the threat of being sent off to some other place is not lost on me or anyone else who's read up on these issues. And I have to wonder, too, if CCM is as wonderful and loving and good as Perri and friends say, then why would they need a stick like that? Isn't the carrot enough?
Please fill us in.
While you were there, did you ever know of anyone who did get shipped off to another facility? For what? What was the impact on you, on others? Did you ever know someone who was transfered too CCM from one of those tougher facilities? What did you make of that?
No matter how great your triumphs or how tragic your defeats---approximately one billion Chinese couldn't care less.
--Lazlo's Chinese Relativity Axiom:
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Ginger,
CCM does use coercion. They have the usual exit plan, but they also have parents tell their 18 year olds that they have a retraining order to keep them in the program should the child decide to leave. One thing that they did to the girl I knew went to CCM was put her on antidepressants. She was crying all the time. Her mother couldn't imagine why! Still she had no trouble tell her daughter that she had a restraining order to keep her at CCM.
This kid was busted from level 3 or 4 at least twice. It took her 74 weeks to complete her 36 week senior year. And it took her 21 months to graduate.
There used to be two web sites about WWASP. One of these was a good one about CCM. Suddenly both of these sites were off the internet. That happened about 3and 1/2 or 4 years ago.
CCM does have licensed therapists, but there are therapist and there are therapists. I asked Perrigaud if she could tell me the degrees the therapists had and she never answered. Maybe she never noticed or cannot remember. Someone mentioned somewhere that most of the therapists were social workers with masters degrees (MSW).
MSWs and psychologists cannot prescribe medication. I wonder who was prescribing the girl's antidepressants. (By the way it was Zoloft. She had quite a few of the drug's side effects, which didn't seem to bother anyone except her.)
Anyway, except for VOY there is little about CCM on the internet now. Maybe because it is their flagship "school" they work harder to keep bad press off the internet and they are not as nasty to their prisoners.
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A CCM survivor was on the Annie Armen show a while ago. Her story is pretty horrific, and is unfortunately very typical.
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On 2005-04-09 22:23:00, Janet wrote:
"Anyway, except for VOY there is little about CCM on the internet now. Maybe because it is their flagship "school" they work harder to keep bad press off the internet and they are not as nasty to their prisoners."
I was thinking the same thing.
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Hi,
I too, am a graduate of one of these programs (mentioned on this site), and I too, feel the program was very beneficial to me. I NEVER was abused, nor did I witness any abuse while there (mid 1980's).
I can not say that there was NO abuse in any program, as I wasn't there at all of them, but I agree that many posters on this site are just bitter adults, who choose not to get what they could from the program, want to blame someone else for their current problems and use the program they were in as a good excuse to complain about their less-than-happy lives. (NOT all, but MANY).
If you read through these postings, you see them talking about doing drugs now, threatening bodily harm to previous staff, and getting into juvenile cursing-matches with anyone who disputes their claims.
If some of them really were abused in these programs, I'll be the FIRST to say that it's AWFUL and I'm sorry they went through it. At the same time, most of these people have aged and it's been DECADES since being in a teen program, yet they still haven't decided to DEAL with their issues and MOVE ON. That IS a decision an adult can make - whether to deal with issues healthily, or continue to blame others, etc.
The program was not something I wanted, as it was difficult, but I did learn a lot and it made me a better person. Not to mention ALL the great friends I made and still have today.
Would be happy to answer any questions you may have of me.
Kim
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The staff MD unfortunately can rx antidepressants. Doesn't have to be a psychiatrist.
Annie Armen has archives of past programs:
http://www.worldtalkradio.com/archive.asp?aid=1898 (http://www.worldtalkradio.com/archive.asp?aid=1898)
FAMILY HUB
Segment 1 (Premier Series)
http://www.worldtalkradio.com/category.asp?cid=319 (http://www.worldtalkradio.com/category.asp?cid=319)
Shelby Earnshaw and Tim Rocha
SURVIVORS OF ABUSE
Part 2
http://www.worldtalkradio.com/category.asp?cid=262 (http://www.worldtalkradio.com/category.asp?cid=262)
Shelby Earnshaw
Kelly Adams, CCM
http://www.worldtalkradio.com/archive.asp?aid=1898 (http://www.worldtalkradio.com/archive.asp?aid=1898)
Kim Newman
WWASP
Part 2 at min 17
Part 3 at min 3:57
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Kim,
My question is how can you, after only attending one program, generalize that there are no abuse in all the programs? That is a pretty ridiculous assumption, wouldn't you agree?
I am an adult, and went to several programs as a teen. I have a great life now, I don't want to hurt former staff, I don't do drugs. I am not bitter, and I'm quite happy. What does bother me, is the SPECIFIC facility I went to is still running, and I experienced first hand it's abuses and cult-like behavior. I'd rather parents know the truth about what goes on, and not remain in the dark about the abuse allegations and DEATHS. Call me crazy, but I'd rather stop the chain of abuse, instead of saying 'get over it' and letting it continue.
I'm glad you had a good experience and made lots of friends, I truly am. I wish I could have remained in contact with my friends there, but they stripped searched us for contact information before we left.
You said:
If some of them really were abused in these programs, I'll be the FIRST to say that it's AWFUL and I'm sorry they went through it.
Do a little bit more research, talk to more people and get back to us on this. Your talking about people, including me, who witnessed physical abuse first hand.
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On 2005-04-10 07:58:00, Anonymous wrote:
" Hi,
I too, am a graduate of one of these programs (mentioned on this site), and I too, feel the program was very beneficial to me. I NEVER was abused, nor did I witness any abuse while there (mid 1980's).
I can not say that there was NO abuse in any program, as I wasn't there at all of them, but I agree that many posters on this site are just bitter adults, who choose not to get what they could from the program, want to blame someone else for their current problems and use the program they were in as a good excuse to complain about their less-than-happy lives. (NOT all, but MANY).
If you read through these postings, you see them talking about doing drugs now, threatening bodily harm to previous staff, and getting into juvenile cursing-matches with anyone who disputes their claims.
If some of them really were abused in these programs, I'll be the FIRST to say that it's AWFUL and I'm sorry they went through it. At the same time, most of these people have aged and it's been DECADES since being in a teen program, yet they still haven't decided to DEAL with their issues and MOVE ON. That IS a decision an adult can make - whether to deal with issues healthily, or continue to blame others, etc.
The program was not something I wanted, as it was difficult, but I did learn a lot and it made me a better person. Not to mention ALL the great friends I made and still have today.
Would be happy to answer any questions you may have of me.
Kim"
I certainly disapprove of recreational use of illegal psychoactive drugs. I can't, right off the top, think of anyone here who actually advocates that. I can think of a quite few who think that the way for them to deal with illicit drug use in their children is to apply normal, effective parenting methods instead of shipping their child off to a facility, though.
There are a very few program survivors, usually kids who just got out and are posting anonymously, who threaten bodily harm to particular staffers where they were. Mostly, since there's no history of *anyone* who posted on Fornits grousing about same actually going and hurting someone, I figure these kids are dealing with fresh hurts and blowing off steam in one of the first safe places they've found. It doesn't make it right, but a little bit of adult maturity applied to understanding those poor kids goes a long way.
As far as "juvenile cursing matches" goes, if you think that a bit of harsh language online, not in person, over some emotionally-charged experiences is a problem, then your own level of maturity is highly suspect.
Personally, most of the people I've seen who have been out for "decades" have moved beyond what happened to them personally and just use their personal experiences to explain the problem while they try to keep the same or similar bad things from happening teenagers today.
They have moved on. They've moved on to using their personal experiences to try to help others.
In many cases, they're trying to help parents whose children *don't* need to be involuntarily committed realize that there are alternatives and find effective alternatives. When parents come on here whose child *does* need to be involuntarily committed, they're trying to help that parent find quality care and avoid being defrauded by facilities that misrepresent the services they offer.
If day hospitalization, or the real Outward Bound, or alternative school, or emancipation, or living with a relative, or outpatient therapy, or conventional boarding school---if one of those helps a child *without* having to put that child in a lock down RTC---What's it to you?
If parents with children whose primary problem is serious mental illness choose facilities that specialize in treating mental illnesses and don't take non-mentally-ill juvenile delinquents, and the mentally ill child is helped---What's it to you?
If parents of a juvenile delinquent allow that child to go into juvenile detention and the kid gets his or her wake-up call and improves his or her behavior *without* the parents paying thousands of dollars a month---What's it to you?
Most of the people I see on here who were in a program as kids and have a problem with what happened there just try to help parents do a better job of matching the care to the kid.
Were you here when we were talking to CHI3 when she had her daughter at Carolina Springs?
We didn't try to tell her that she was wrong for trying to change her daughter's dangerous behavior. What we did was helped her figure out what questions she needed to ask to find out if what she was getting was what she thought she was buying, and was what her daughter needed.
It turns out that the conversations helped her refine her search for what would help her daughter, and it turned out that what she was getting wasn't what she thought she'd been buying after all, and it turns out that her daughter is now getting help that CHI3 and the rest of her family are much happier with.
CHI3's story is fairly typical of why I'm here. She came here, she got some ideas to think about in figuring out for herself what questions she needed to ask, and her family is getting what they feel they need at a price they can better afford (as far as I can tell)---care that is much more precisely targetted to their individual situation.
Think of Fornits as a cooperative educational consulting resource.
The people who set their examples out here for parents to see---and everyone sets an example, good or bad---at least *try* to help parents refine their ideas of what their child's specific problem is and what kind of specialized treatment is most likely to help *their* child.
I'm against one-size-fits-all treatment for teen behavior and mental health problems. What's so wrong with that? I'm not against treatment. I just think it's more effective to get a treatment for what you specifically have than to pick up a bottle that someone's hawking as a cure for whatever ails you and take a swig.
Okay, you feel you were helped, and if you've been out more than five years, I'll take your word for that.
But kids who are put in the very same facility you were who are not you and whose problems are different from yours could well have very different experiences.
Abuse and trauma and bad experiences are all far less likely when the treatment methods and treatment facility are targetted specifically to the degree and type of problem found in that specific kid.
To me, that's just common sense.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but if you've "moved on" so much, why would you have a problem with that?
I must be missing something. I *probably* am, because I don't really get why you felt the need to say what you just have.
Are there trolls on Fornits? Sure. Are there juvenile people--usually actual juveniles? Sure. Are there people--like me---who are usually mostly reasonable but occasionally lose it? Sure. It's an unmoderated forum, just like Usenet newsgroups, and you get a mixed bag. So what?
Most of the people I see who had bad experiences decades ago have chosen the remedy of trying to speak out for the treatment being better targetted to the kid. That seems perfectly reasonable to me. To me, that seems like a healthy way to deal with a bad memory.
We're looking at the same Forum, but we're seeing very different things. I'm not sure I "get" why.
TimocleaGovernment exists to protect us from each other. Where government has gone beyond its limits is in deciding to protect us from ourselves
--Ronald Reagan
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On 2005-04-10 07:58:00, Anonymous wrote:
yet they still haven't decided to DEAL with their issues and MOVE ON.
You're mistaken. I've decided to deal w/ the issue by doing what I can to expose the fraud and abuse in the industry. I'll move on when I'm done.It (the Bible) is full of interest. It has noble poetry in it; and some clever fables; and some blood-drenched history; and some good morals; and a wealth of obscenity; and upwards of a thousand lies.
--Samuel Clemens "Mark Twain", American author and humorist
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My dgt's therapist at cross creek took 2 months to get back to our family therapist here. They had asked him to fax his credentials to them. If he was licensed they would send him the complete test, if he wasn't they would be glad to summarize it for him. When I asked him why he hadn't called me or answered email, his comeback was well if you want argue about this for the next twenty min. I wasn't arguing just asking him if this was the type of communication I could expect from him? Same thing, if I wanted to argue about it.....Then I asked if he had received the info from our Dr.s no he has been really busy...I said, "you haven't found anytime in 2 months to fax them the info they need. I'll do better I'll have time this Friday was his reply, When I checked with the Dr.s here Monday he still hadn't done it I emailed him and finally he was being held accountable like he is holding my child. CCM may not be as bad as the other RTC but what's verbal abuse to anyone, indignites with restrooms.
Mental abuse and fear. It's all abuse to me. Some are worse than others. But it all has to stop. Parents would tell me that the cussing at the kids was because they needed a quick kick in the butt, hadn't I ever cussed at my kid before. I was putting my values on them. etc. etc. Futile with them is what it is. They always had some excuse why this is ok, they were so blind, brainwashed it makes me sick.
thanks for letting me vent.
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My dgt's therapist at cross creek took 2 months to get back to our family therapist here. They had asked him to fax his credentials to them. If he was licensed they would send him the complete test, if he wasn't they would be glad to summarize it for him. When I asked him why he hadn't called me or answered email, his comeback was well if you want argue about this for the next twenty min. I wasn't arguing just asking him if this was the type of communication I could expect from him? Same thing, if I wanted to argue about it.....Then I asked if he had received the info from our Dr.s no he has been really busy...I said, "you haven't found anytime in 2 months to fax them the info they need. I'll do better I'll have time this Friday was his reply, When I checked with the Dr.s here Monday he still hadn't done it I emailed him and finally he was being held accountable like he is holding my child. CCM may not be as bad as the other RTC but what's verbal abuse to anyone, indignites with restrooms.
Mental abuse and fear. It's all abuse to me. Some are worse than others. But it all has to stop. Parents would tell me that the cussing at the kids was because they needed a quick kick in the butt, hadn't I ever cussed at my kid before. I was putting my values on them. etc. etc. Futile with them is what it is. They always had some excuse why this is ok, they were so blind, brainwashed it makes me sick.
thanks for letting me vent.