Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Nihilanthic on September 19, 2004, 06:42:00 AM
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http://www.isaccorp.com/wwasp/documents/parentplea.pdf (http://www.isaccorp.com/wwasp/documents/parentplea.pdf) This little gem right here explains a lot about the crap that goes on in there... seems that code of silence isn't gonna work forever.
BTW, 'Socrates', if you're reading this... there's no point in keeping it a secret anymore, now is there?
Too bad big cable news won't put this on some investigative reporting show instead of stuff about the election, the war on terror, the UN, and Iraq... *groan*.
I bet they'd put stuff on there about a conspiracy to send hurricanes to florida in a bid for Bush to be able to give aid to win the state in the election in november before they's show what I posted above! But this is far from demonstrating that the authorities must interpose to suppress these vices by commercial prohibitions, nor is it by any means evident that such intervention on the part of the government is really capable of suppressing them or that, even if this end could be attained, it might not therewith open up a Pandora's box of other dangers, no less mischievous than alcoholism and morphinism.
Ludwig Von Mises
[ This Message was edited by: Nihilanthic on 2004-09-19 03:44 ]
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Too bad big cable news won't put this on some investigative reporting show instead of stuff about the election, the war on terror, the UN, and Iraq... *groan*.
I agree.
Why not write and tell Them?
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It's an election year. We're doomed to election coverage until mid-November----and just pray that whichever way the election goes, it's not close!
I just wish that this election was more about the issues and less about *both* sides acting like six year olds in a tattle-war.
"He lied to his Mom when he was four about who ate the last cookie! What kind of man lies to *his own mother*?!"
"Oh yeah? Well *he* lied to his Mommy about who colored on the wall when he was five!"
"Yes, but have the candidates released all the records about how many chocolate chips were in the cookie? And what color crayon was used on the wall, and was that color even available in the 1940's? What is the candidate hiding? Fnord."
Unfortunately, we're just doomed to an election of playground politics this cycle.
I've found the most refreshing thing I can do to keep my cool is occasionally keep the news turned off for a whole day and take a break from the entire mess.
To heck with honesty or integrity or experience or wisdom. I'd be happy if this election just had a grownup or two.
Timoclea
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Forgive me if I'm misreading the Seminar thing, but wasn't this written in 1998? Don't they hold seminars in various parts of the country every weekend with upwards of 100 participants, both parents and the general public? If you look at, say, 5 locations, that's approximately 26000 per year, or more. So in 6 years that's around 156,000! However, I think this a low estimate. Don't these participants include doctors, lawyers, psychologists, psychiatrists, business owners, actors, CEO's of successful companies, police officers, politicians and other parents that lost track of what's really important in life and are there to change that? Aren't the seminars meant to challenge old beliefs that aren't working in their lives and their families? Aren't these,for the mostpart, intelligent people who are there of their own free will and can leave at anytime if they aren't open to what is needed to make necessary changes that benefit them as well as their family?
What's stopping any of you from going, fear of the unknown?
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Fear of loosing my identity.
Fear of being re-made in someone else's image of what/who I should be.
Do a little research into Large Group Awareness Training seminars.
They are intended to challenge old beliefs all right - but replace them with what?
I happen to be very comfortable and happy with my personal beliefs and don't need some self proclaimed enlightened, tolerant, angry, rude guru stripping me of them, and replacing them with their idea of whats better.
Neither do you, or all those doctors and lawyers and other intelligent persons.
But The Program needs you too; and so you go, because you must; because everyone whose been, says you must; and you get what your meant to get from it, a whole new you, that Trust the Program absolutely, and is very happy about it.
Think about it Pal.
By the Way, intelligence offers no protection against brainwashing. None what so ever.
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Buzzkill - how is learning what your own values are or learning to think independently - that is, not following the crowd or caring what other people think, considered brainwashing?
Stating that someone is telling you how to think, it seems, is coming from fear.
Like Dr. Phil says, years after the seminars have been asking, "Is that working for you?" If it is, great! There are thousands of people that would say that what they're doing isn't working for them - why do you think their child is in a Program? What's different is they are given a way to do something about it because they want to, despite your statement that they HAVE to.
What I'm noticing is that those that oppose the seminars, haven't been, or those few that have didn't need to or want to change. Which is really okay! Just stop telling other people how to think or feel - is that your own form of brainwashing?
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Dr. Phil is a ponce. Screw him and anything he has to say.
And based on what that woman said, its not 'learning to think independantly' or 'your own values', its a stress inducing group-think episode.
I'm not gonna read her testiment of what happens and you saying "oh but thats not brainwashing". WTF is it? Why the threats and intimidation? Why are they being mentally and psychologically torn down like that? Why the various emotional reactions?
This isn't some ephiphany or great revelation dude. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck and waddles like a duck its a damn duck. They serve so that we don't have to. They offer to give up their lives so that we can be free. It is, remarkably, their gift to us. And all they ask for in return is that we never send them into harm's way unless it is absolutely necessary. Will they ever trust us again?
Going on about "oh anyone who hasn't been" or "doesn't want to change" are the ones against you is bullcrap. If its brainwashing its kind of hard to go against it for one, and for two that woman did go and is very much against it. Same for a lot of people here in this forum. who went, saw it for what it was and escaped or tried to close out their minds to it.
I'd love to change for the better, but I'm not going to trust my damn mind to someone with an agenda and I'm not going to do it in some group psychological BDSM episode, thanks. My mental and emotional state is weakened already and I'm not going to bend over for some quantum coaching (or whatever the buzzword is this week) mindfuck.
[ This Message was edited by: Nihilanthic on 2004-09-19 14:00 ]
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Nihilanthic , you might also want to read this:
http://www.intrepidnetreporters.com/Tee ... eaking.htm (http://www.intrepidnetreporters.com/TeenHelp/breaking.htm)
http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/des ... t-pg.shtml (http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/desperate/site-desperate/day2/2front-pg.shtml)
Anon who liked the experience; Does it surprise you that people say what you experienced was a brainwashing session?
This can only be because you don't know much about the subject.
What takes place in these seminars is classic and textbook brain washing.
Thats why your sleep is so extremely limited during the seminar; its why there isn't time for a decent meal; its why you are put under great emotional stress - then they "make up" and tell you how wonderful you are.
Its classic stuff.
Look it up.
Now, if you don't mind being brainwashed and made to follow blindly what the group dictates - then I guess you can relax and enjoy it; but your kid has no choice. They can NOT just walk out. And your OK with this? No independent thinking person with an ounce of appreciation for freedom of thought and individuality would be OK with this.
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I did read that breaking article. It scared the crap outta me.
However, its sooooo long most other people will not, thats why I liked to that PDF. Yes, most people would rather not be aware of what goes on simply because they can't stand to read something thats a long article. *sigh*
Also, I think the same story is in both, just much shorter in the PDF.
Nevertheless, the secrecy alone is very questionable, and now that we have this info, its just more smoke. Why do some people still think there isn't fire? Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself.
Mark Twain
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Remember ..... A group does not have to be religious to be cultic
in behaviour. High demand groups can be commercial, political and
psychological. Be aware, especially if you are a bright, intelligent
and idealistic person. The most likely person to be caught up in this
type of behavioural system is the one who says "I won't get caught. It
will never happen to me. I am too intelligent for that sort of thing."
http://www.ex-cult.org/General/totalism-group-dynamics (http://www.ex-cult.org/General/totalism-group-dynamics)
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On 2004-09-19 10:57:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Forgive me if I'm misreading the Seminar thing, but wasn't this written in 1998? Don't they hold seminars in various parts of the country every weekend with upwards of 100 participants, both parents and the general public? If you look at, say, 5 locations, that's approximately 26000 per year, or more. So in 6 years that's around 156,000! However, I think this a low estimate.
The figures offered above are a prime example of programmed thinking from a seminar groupie. Seminars are not held weekly. For the 3 publicly-offered (Discovery, Focus, Visions), there are 6 prime markets where participants may go, and each market offers a seminar about once every two months or so. Other than on-site required seminars at facilities, like PC-1 and PC-2, it would appear there are about 18 seminars a year, not 52. Let's say 100 people times 18 seminars a year = 1800 people. Of these, all second-level (Focus) attendees MUST have already attended the previous seminar-in-sequence. That vastly narrows the field of "enlightened" parents, and each attendee cannot be counted as "another person" because there is required duplication of warm bodies. Doesn't this groupie meet with old friends made while attending previous seminars with the same parents?
How many Discovery attendees left mid-stream or pulled their kids after going home from a seminar and thinking this was really a lot of bullshit? No figures available on that one.
As for nothing stopping me except for fear of the unknown, how about $300 a pop for admission (unless you're already a parent shelling out $3000-$5000 a month) plus all the costs of travelling, lodging, eating, etc.? One would be well-advised to either hire a competent personal psychologist for weekly visits ($75/hr.), or turn on Dr. Phil while you're cooking dinner, depending on what quality of advice you're after.
BTW, the Resource Realizations URL (the seminar arm of WWASPS that was supposed to have a new name under David Gilcreast) offers a Discovery seminar for Casa by the Sea parents on November 14. Wonder if they'll let Director Dace Goulding out of house arrest to attend that one.
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You really have been out of the seminar process for a while! They have been doing "Keys to Success"seminars for quite some time. No more Visions seminars. The Keys (for adults) address addiction, communication, relationships, and several others. There's usually about 8 adult seminars a month (excluding the PC's) with around 100-150 in each, so the estimate is pretty close.
Other personal growth seminars cost between $400-800 for a weekend. Is it the money that's stopping you from going or is it something else?
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Hey, twit, go read the thing on ISAC and intrepid net reporter.
Intimidation worked on you in the seminar, but we're not stupid enough to put ourselves in that situation.
Also, yes, money IS a problem. I don't have any spare income due to college, my dad's constant stupid lawsuits against my mom, and the fact that she just had her thyroid removed due to cancer.
Besides, given what I've read, I'm not going into any seminar like that without a gun or a group I know very wbellthat I sit beside nomatter what some jerk tells me to do. If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be.
--Thomas Jefferson
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Is ISAC giving seminars or acting as ?educational constultants".
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The bottom line and most important point about the seminars is this - we, the program kids, DID NOT HAVE A CHOICE whether or not we wanted to be subjected to the sadistic, manipulative TASKS practices. And don't give me that bullshit about how we could "choose out" if we wanted to. What kind of choice is this: Choice A - DO NOT complete the seminars and never move up in the program, and consequently, NEVER GO HOME, or Choice B - Submit to the barrage of abuse and mean-spiritedness until David Gilcrease feels that you are ready to "work" (and they everyone will love you, YAY!), complete the seminars, move up in the program & eventually (when the program thinks your good and ready, or your parents have run out of cash) you will get to GO HOME. This is not a real choice! This is coercion & brainwashing! To be brutally honest, I really don't care about what goes on in the parent seminars - if an adult, of their own free will, elects to put themselves through that process, good for them - at least they can get up and walk out if they want to. I also don't believe for a second that the parent seminars were near as cruel & sadistic as the ones that we had to endure in the program. And Anon, just for your information, I was at Cross Creek Manor for 18 months, I stayed past my 18th birthday to complete the program (another "choice" that was never really a choice), and was considered to be such a "success story" that CCM chose me to be a guest on the Sally J. Raphael show to talk about how I had been "saved" by the program. It's been over five years since I've graduated, and I'm just now finding the courage to really speak out and take action against this evil (sorry if that sounds a bit melodramatic, but it's how I feel right now) organization - how's that for brainwashing?? Oh yes, and my parents and one of my younger brothers completed all the seminars as well - Discovery, Focus & Visions - and they still think that the seminars & the program in general was God's Gift. Unfortunately, they (my parents, but not my brother) CHOOSE to give their allegiance to a bunch of strangers over their own child. I would like to thanks WWASP, Resource Realizations, Teen Help, Cross Creek Manor, ASI & any other of this organization's aliases for creating this permanent rift in our family - to be honest, I don't know if my parents & I will EVER be okay. If you're okay with the probability of this scenario taking place in YOUR family then, by all means, keep going to the seminars & keep your child in the program. Just don't be surprised when the months/years of WWASP/TASKS conditioning breaks down & your child realizes the gravity of what he/she has been through.
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This lack of choice is something I have often tried to stress when discussing the Seminars.
Its very important to understanding how the program "works".
I have also often advised Program Parents bragging on how great their grad is doing to wait five years. I don't know why, but it seems to take, on average, five years for the conditioning to break down to the point the person can start talking.
As for the Parents and their seminar - they do not really have a choice. They are compelled to attend Discovery; and if they are the average parent, they leave Discovery quite devoted to the program and very likely to continue with the rest of the Programming.
But your right - they can walk out, and some do, and those ones will pull their kid soon as they get out the door.
And you right that the parents version is a much watered down version of what you went threw. They are told so: This is nothing compared to what your kid is doing. The kids are told so: The parents don't do anything near this intense - they wouldn't stand for it. At least my kid was told that.
The seminars are the key.
It has to be understood what they ARE.
Then it is understandable how the program can continue to continue, despite the abuse and neglect being common knowledge.
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Hey KC,
Why not contact Sally J. Raphael and ask her to put you on, five years after the fact. (That is, if she still has a show- don't watch daytime TV)
I would think that she owes that to her viewing audience. These talk show hosts need to be pressured to present all perspectives, otherwise they are guilty of colluding with the deception.
I'm sure there are some other survivors that would go on as well.
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Yes, it does take a long time for the layers of brainwashing to really break down - I understand the parents are manipulated to a very high degree as well, I suppose I'm just a little bitter.... The most disturbing part of all this is how much it can damage families & tear them apart across "program" lines. The irony is sick & twisted, but for many of us who "graduated" the program (and fully indoctrinated ourselves into the system) and later (years later) come to realize what we really went through - our relationship with our parents can be irrevocably damaged forever! Hmm, weren't the seminars/program supposed to bring the family back together?? What happened?
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Deborah,
She doesn't still have a show, btw - and I DID attempt to do what you're talking about, two years or so ago. I didn't really want to go on her show (I was still very conflicted about my feelings & afraid of my parents' reactions), but I wrote a very long & detailed email to the show explaining my state of mind back then and pleading with them not to refer anymore "troubled teens" to a WWASP program. They had an entire section of their website devoted to the "troubled teens" topic, in which their was a listing of treatment centers, boot camps & wilderness programs (etc.) as a resource for parents of said teens. Three guesses who was at the top of that list! World Wide, naturally. Anyhow, I was a bit surprised, but no one from the show ever responded to my email. One would think that if you found out you were referring kids to an abusive program that you'd at least take their link of your site, right?
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//Hmm, weren't the seminars/program supposed to bring the family back together?? What happened?//
Indeed. And you know, they even go so far as to encourage divorce if one spouse is non-supportive of the program. They encourage cutting off any relative who is non-supporting.
Why?
Well, I suspect b/c the non - supporting person might be successful at getting threw the programming; and they can't have that, as that would loose them students/money. If they need to shatter a family to keep the cash flowing, then so be it.
//One would think that if you found out you were referring kids to an abusive program that you'd at least take their link of your site, right? //
One would like to think - but your forgetting how blind people can be when it puts money in their pocket to be blind. I expect Sally was getting paid to advertise; maybe even paid for each enrollment as a result of her endorsement.
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On 2004-09-26 10:36:00, BuzzKill wrote:
"//Hmm, weren't the seminars/program supposed to bring the family back together?? What happened?//
Indeed. And you know, they even go so far as to encourage divorce if one spouse is non-supportive of the program. They encourage cutting off any relative who is non-supporting.
Why?
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Because it's a cult. That's one of the first things cults do to their new recruits-- force them or manipulate them into cutting off all contacts with the "un-enlightened", who didn't have the "great privilege" of going through the glorious Program.
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::bump::
Recent talk about cultyness in programs, and I dug this thread up.
Cultyness doesnt require spirituality or theology. the war on drugs is but one manifestation, albeit a very dramatic one, of the great moral contests of our age -- the struggle between two diametrically opposed images of man: between man as responsible moral agent, 'condemned' to freedom, benefiting and suffering from the consequences of his actions; and man as irresponsible child, unfit for freedom, 'protected' from its risks by agents of the omnicompetent state.
--Thomas Szasz
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I as the some people call it, opt out of the Discovery seminar. I would ask why they were so long, what do we do in the seminar? and no matter what I asked, the answer was, your going to love it, when are you going? Which one are you going to. I went to the one in....never any answers. As my suspicions kept growing and other things had come up, I finally a few days before I was to leave found information on the seminars. Then I continued to find more information about the programs. People should be given the correct information so they can make a personal choice whether they want to be subjected to this type of seminar. I am being very nice about calling it a seminar.
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The thing is, people cant be told exactly what a seminar is and be expected to actually go through with one!
Think about it. Who the hell is going to willingly submit to a bunch of mindgames that belong in a BDSM club or terrorist interrogation, and even THEN the legality of it is challenged!
Ugh. When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one.
--Benjamin Franklin, American Founding Father, author, and inventor
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http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... orum=44&17 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=9195&forum=44&17)