Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => CEDU / Brown Schools and derivatives / clones => Topic started by: shanlea on August 28, 2004, 03:12:00 PM
-
OK. Moving on from Mooses....
Many of us on the board have outlined specific reasons why we have a problem (understatement of the century) with CEDU. But none of us have heard the specific aspects of CEDU that your family endorses. What specifically did you find helpful about the program.
I already know that you find the post CEDU son/brother more fulfilled and on the right track. I want to know the SPECIFIC ways the program contributed to this. Hopefully, we can get a more constructive dialogue going and people can disagree on merit over personal attacks.
Also, this is a sincere inquiry as it has just occurred to me that I never asked. I will endeavor to think openly before replying.
-
I would really like to speak with you more later in the week.
Right now I am in the middle of something very time-consuming, and shouldn't even be checking this site.
I was actually just seeing what my daughter who is away at the moment, might have posted--boy, I fear for the children of some of those who have responded to her, especially when these kids are old enough to disagree their parents---CEDU may look pretty good by comparison!
If you are still of such a mind later, I will reply--I think that I answered with some specifics in the past but perhaps they are on an old post or not what you are looking for.
-
Shanlea, I've asked essentially the same question of O5 before and gotten essentially the same answer. I suspect this is all the answer we'll ever get.
BTW, Jeff Shaler remarked at the Treatment Abuse conference in Bathesda in 2000 that he's asked the same question of Stepcraft practitioners many, many times and gotten similar responses.
My theory is that, in order for thought reform to be effective, the subject must be unaware of the mechanism by which it works. You simply can't carry it off w/ informed consent because understanding the process renders the process ineffectual.
Understand that legal and illegal are political, and often arbitrary,
categorizations; use and abuse are medical, or clinical, distinctions.
--Abbie Hoffman
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Seed sibling `71 - `80
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.
-
Now I see how all the stuff with Otowa5&2 started. I just want to say again that my experience was not really good. Even if it MIGHT have saved me. And that phone call with mom and dad and the threats of jail until I was 18. True. My Parents being lied to about what the program delivered followed their orders just the way the cookie cutter ordered. Yes, the folks were angry with me, and were encouraged by someone who probably got kickbacks (re-education consultants)leave me with those nuts. That is unfair. Being punished for what? I had never stolen anyones shit (money, car, or soul)did tons of drugs, I hadn't done anything but run away alot. So I was punished for adolesence. Nothing more. School problems. FOlks had a baby and I had basic sibling rivalry that took arms and starting revolting early. Lot's of personal factors, of course. But to be punished for hormonal changes? Puberty?
And the raps. Described well, accurately and in detail in many postings. And to take us all out of oblivion, it's like this: People feel things differently. Some people who went to CEDU or RMA feel things a LOT more than others. Sadness, Anger, Love, and Guilt. We resent. We can't help it. When we were in our most developemental period the kind of communication we recieved was totally inappropriate. And the messages WERE hostile, out of touch, scary, mean, very wierd sometimes, and unpredictable when the fire would combust under you for NOTHING.
And as for abuse. There was physical hazings in the dorms and everywhere else that staff were not privy to or supported. Ex CEDUITES were the worse.
Yes, I've been in touch a little with some staff and ex staff and they comment that these places have already changed a lot since 1990 and that the confrontational style that was employed during my tenure at RMA is different now. Non confrontational. So OTTS listen. What I think some of us are still needing to fight against is the idea that ANYONE can like it. I've been rational a long time about it but now...I'm with the Serb (staunch enemies of Hitler and facism) and Bryan who has more definitive statements with a FIRSTHAND experience like MINE.
OH! I loved it when I was brainwashed, and I Love the master who gave me my food and sometimes didn't beat me up hard for no reason. Fuck. It's hard to be nice to anyone who tells me what they don't know. Fuck the anons who defend CEDU ED and fuck the non anons who support CEDU too. whoops now I'm negative. I've got my summit and I DO use it, but man I wish I had a choice about the matter. I was ready after 2.5 years but a shell of the young man I could have become. I had to wait until I wasn't terrified of the world anymore.
Then the nightmares about RMA started. The re-occuring dreams of returning there. Lies of love. Dreams of Raps and special moments that were only special becuase they stopped the current for a while. sheesh. Oh. BTW. I found a lot of the staff that I mentioned on another thread.
OUR kind who have experienced this evil, EVIL will to change us. To beat our very soul into submission and then abandon us to the problems itself created is not the way to change the world. You can't positively change the world while imprisoning children at the same time! They are incongruous.
Ottowas, I'm glad I got involved. I'm great with kids but you shoud NEVER, NEVER think you would know what the fuck to do with a teen like I was. Sickening limp noodle. Just Believe that NOTHING there can help everyone... and the gal needs something better to do with her time. This is not for people who don't want to hear the TRUTH.
-
dude, they're (the O's) are just trying to cover their asses right now, and are stalling to try to come up with an excuise or answer.
A good head and good heart are always a formidable combination. But when you add to that a literate tongue or pen, then you have something very special
--Nelson Mandela
-
I really wish that I would write something as intelligent so goddamn fucking HEALING for my ears to hear as what blownawaytheidahoway, Son of Serbia, and Brian Felsher have written. You guys are real men for what you've all said. Thank you all so much. And thank you Antigen.
-
::rainbow::
Homeschool is self regulating. The school board is not going to have illiterate useless people living in their homes forever if they don't have a working education policy.
--Sisterbluerose
-
O2 and O5, what's you're purpose on this web sight? are you trying to piss people off? are you tring to belittle us like we were at cedu? are you trying to make us "see the light in cedu"? (cuz we all know that's not gonna happen...) are you some one relaying information about this sight to legal people? are you trying to make what we have to say seem outragouse and not true? are you tring to keep your "son" from knowing the truth about what other people have to say about these places because you're afraid he will relate to us? are you tring to brainwash us like cedu tried to? are you trying to shut us down? because i will have to second what Bryan Felsher said, "YOU WILL NEVER SILENCE US!"
Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not.
James Madison, "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785
[ This Message was edited by: **PIXIE DUST** on 2004-08-28 14:35 ]
-
I for one theorize that she is doing this because if she were to believe us, she would be forced to accept the ramifications of what she has done. Rather than face the truth, she chooses to put on goggles through which her false universe exists. She's a coward, and a criminal, and she'll never face herself. Too bad for her son, is all I can say.
-
On 2004-08-28 14:58:00, Oppositional Defiance wrote:
"I for one theorize that she is doing this because if she were to believe us, she would be forced to accept the ramifications of what she has done.
I tend to agree w/ you.
As to why she/they post here, I don't think it's substantially different from what motivates religious zealots to do various things from pounding on people's doors on Sunday mornings all the way to lobbing bomb laden virgins at infidels.
All I ask is equal freedom. When it is denied, as it always is, I take it anyhow.
--H.L. Mencken
-
What she doesn't seem to understand is that we can have a real dialogue about the program and what it's funcions should have been...if this young man would spend a few hours delving back into the pain/joy he feels. God knows, as does the Cleavers, I mean Ottowas, we can be the warmest bunch and most tender welcoming committee.
We can't even touch the issue of what was so very powerful about the system and what positive measures we COULD have taken out of it without looking at being incarcerated without our will. Then we can explore the breaking of the individual and that will, and the usages of mind control that CEDU used to supposedly lay new positivly enhanced messages for future living. (they do fail miserably in this and for me DID cause MORE damage in the longrun) and then we can look at what having that will shattered into a thousand pieces feels like and what good that may or may not do. But first things first: if you want dialogue provide the evidence you attest to. If he is so happy-go-lucky and doesn't hang out with us Eddie Hascals anymore where is he? I can't hate my Darth-vader hand that is RMA, I can only learn to live better because of it. I'm trying but hearing it was all pink perfume and flowers from someone who wasn't forced, FORCED to feel bad about themselves for 913 days, and deprived of basic rights, pisses me off.
But Ottowa(s) you must know that without hearing from this kid ourselves...we ALL think you must be full of shit.
again...I'm Blownaway by thinking about this shit again.
-
And I am anxious to hear exactly what SPECIFIC aspects of the program were so helpful according to Ottawa. I hope for:
1. Specific aspect #1
2. Specific aspect #2 and supporting data etc.
I know you all think this is hogwash but I want to know exactly what she finds helpful about the program.
-
You told Shanlea today that I never responded to you about your question as to what specifically I liked about the CEDU experience.
I most certainly did---in a post entitled "Antigen, do you have no sense of humor at all?", I think it was on 8/19 or maybe 8/17.
As well, I told a much longer version of the same basic story to some poster named Cypress earlier in the summer.
Although it must be hard for you to keep track, having to plow through all the insightful comments, beautiful (and well-written) poetry, and so forth at this site.
Perhaps you just didn't like my answer, well that's OK, I don't think much of most of the stuff I hear from you, but I would hate for you to really think that I made no response at all ( I mean, at the time, I even considered that it might be a sincere question).
-
dude, just stop beating around the bush, just answer the fuckin question!!!!!!!
Karate is a form of martial arts in which people who have had years and years of training can, using only their hands and feet, make some of the worst movies in the history of the world.
-- Dave Barry
-
in other words, just say it so that people don't have to go looking trough everything if the wanna know the answer
Any policy that has Ted Byfield on the same side as many Rastafarians can fairly be said to have generated a consensus.
-- Ottawa Citizen August 28, 1997
-
Well, I just went looking and can't find a topic w/ that heading.
Ottowa5, I know you're tech. challenged, but can you just click the "Search WWF" link to the left, find the post you say answeres the question and post the "post url" link to it so that we all can know the answer?
If you want a voluntary urine sample from me it'll have to be a taste test.
--Bumper Sticker
-
Hello everyone!
I find it very interesting that some of you have a problem with my points being very much like my mothers. Well what do you expect? We know the same people that went to CEDU so our examples will be the same. As for being a "poor clone copy" I would be more concered with others on this site.
I am begining think that Bryan, SOS, OD and Pixi are copys of each other. They all sound like the exact same to me.
Pixi: As for our purpous on this site it has been stated several times.
Blownaway: Trust me all my mother wants in dialogue but most of the people on this web site are not very forth comming due to the fact that CEDU work for our family.
SOS: If you have so much going on in your life then why waist your time here arguing with my mother, who you know will not change her opinion? Really, if you have kids, a wife, a job ect I dont think you would have so much spear time to spend agruing with a random person on the internet.
Trust me I take your comments with a grain of salt. But I find it funny that you find pleasure in insulting a teenage girl! Dose it make you feel big, strong and manly? Cuz if it dose you need some seirous help my friend! I wounder if I were suicidal or anything like that, would you feel the same?
Shanlea: My mother will get back to you as soon as she can. Currently she has a lot going on with school so she dose not have to much time to spend on this web site. But you will get your answers that I can promise you. Trust me if she had more time she would have gotten back to you much sooner! With in the next few days she should have more time and will be able to give a a full answer.
:wave: [ This Message was edited by: Ottawa2 on 2004-08-28 21:49 ]
-
so what's your purpose?
If the personal freedoms guaranteed by the Constitution inhibit the
government's ability to govern the people, we should look to limit those guarantees.
--President Bill Clinton
-
On 2004-08-28 15:46:00, blownawaytheidahoway wrote:
Blownaway: Trust me all my mother wants in dialogue but most of the people on this web site are not very forth comming due to the fact that CEDU work for our family.
INCORRECT! Most People on this website ARE forthcoming. We are dumping our guts out to you! We are giving examples of what went wrong, we consistantly deal with the issues that hold us back, we respond honestly and truthfully.
Pony up the boy and maybe we'll see how forthcoming the Ottowas are.
-
No, blownaway people may have told what happened to them but they are very hostal to my mother when she expreses her opinion or ask a question. She wants to know WHY CEDU did not work for them. She already know that they had bad expriences but they have not told her why aside from things like "This guy who worked there sucked!" My mom would like more specific thing then that.(Just like Shanlea whats to know what worked for my brother)
Most people will just scream and shout at her not offering any information that might help her. She wants to have civilized dialogue, but it is verydifficult with people like SOS, OD, Bryan, Pixi and others on this site.
-
dude, all i asked you was; "what's your purpose on this web sight" i didn't know that wasn't civilized conversation... and please; don't fuck around with the word suicide, a lot of people have real issues with that
A free people ought...to be armed...
George Washington, 1790
[ This Message was edited by: **PIXIE DUST** on 2004-08-29 13:37 ]
-
and anywhos, we've stated SEVERAL times why these places didn't work for us, i can do a re-cap for you though since it seens you've had a brain fart... they treat us like shit, they play mind games with us, they don't deal with our real issues, they yell at us for no reason some times (well, a lot of the time), we get called names that aren't true about us, we had NO freedom, we were isolated from people when we were on restrictions of any kind, or if staff just felt like it (we were put on bans from people, meanning we couldn't talk to certian people, make eye contact or anything, and if we got caught doing that, we would get in even more trouble), talking on the phone and writing letters are a privilage (when i first got there, i couldn't write to my brother to say "happy birthday, i love you and hope you're doing ok") we were broken down to the point where we felt hopeless and like there was no way out <- have you ever been told that because you were adopted that you weren't wanted by anyone?? cuz i have. we were tourtured by having to do work assingments. at bca, we had to shovel horse shit, clean the chicken coop, shovel burrow shit, clean rabbit cages, and haul all of that to the compost pile, we had to saw wood and split it then stack it and if the staff didn't like how it was stacked, or if they just felt like it, they would knock it over and make us stack it again, we had to haul pales of water to the animals... we couldn't just put the hose together and fill the traufs up that way, we had to fill up buckets of water one at a time and fill it up that way, we had to shovel snow from the paths, we had to chip ice off the paths, we had to pull weeds in gardens and off the paths, we had to out line paths with rocks, we had to pick up sticks that fell on the paths. there, is that enough or do i need to point out more reasons why these places didn't help people, cuz i ready and willing to do so. ::armed::
A drug is neither moral nor immoral - it's a chemical compound. The compound itself is not a menace to society until a human being treats it as if consumption bestowed a temporary license to act like an asshole.
--Frank Zappa
[ This Message was edited by: **PIXIE DUST** on 2004-08-29 13:21 ]
-
Pixi a lot of what you listed sound like just a lot of chores. Was that what your plroblem was with the place was?
Did you ever cocider this: The people running the program are under the assumption that the kids going there are runaways-druggies so of course your freedom is going to be restricted. Do you think that a place for kid like that will let you do whatever you want and go wherever you want??? Cuz that would be smart! (FYI: being sarcastic)
But what about the kid that do not need the program??? That got sent there when they did not need it?
I do know a girl who really did not need the program. After a few month CEDU sent her back home becasue they could tell she did not belong there.
-
Hey ottawa2. Right now, if you want to experience CEDU, we can do it very easily.
Why don't you right a list of all the things you've ever put in your pussy so we can read it?
Why don't you tell us all whether you've ever sucked a dick and spit or swallow?
I know these questions are extremely offensive, but these are the things girls had to answer (in the same language) in front of all their peers, both male and female.
This is why it is important to shut the place down. So no one will ever be abused again.
Now, you tell me- is it abuse for you to be FORCED under sleep/food deprevation to answer those questions in front of your peers?
You say we won't answer your questions. You are so naive about CEDU, it's rediculous. You are just like your mother. You will not answer the questions, you will call us ALL liars, and you will downplay it.
As far as I'm concerned, you support the abuse and if so, I find you to be a disgusting human being.
And ignorance is NO excuse, because we're telling you ALL about it.
-
YAY bryan!! :nworthy: that was a good example of what we had to deal with at CEDU. O2, all that we've said about all these places are very real, and until you go through the "CEDU expirence", you will never know just how BAD things would get there.
-
And, BTW, it was the same at Straight and The Seed. Always w/ the confessions, which we called FOS lists (full of shit)
I dealt w/ it by 'confessing' to things that either never happened or that did, but that I didn't care about. Never trusted those psychos w/ anything real or important.
What is a committee? A group of the unwilling, picked from the unfit, to do the unnecessary.
-- Richard Harkness, The New York Times, 1960
-
and BTW, those were not chores, they were what BCA, RMA, NWA, and i'm sure cedu high and cedu middle called, work assingments, meanning, if you got in trouble for ANYTHING they would give you a work assingment. how about you try it for 2 1/2 years. they are a punishment, and i would like to see you sruvive the fulltime punishment of CEDU. and again, like i said, i'm ready and willing to dish out more reasons why these places didn't work for us, since it seems your brain fart is still in existence.
-
(Pixie) I disagree with you about O2's brain fart. You see a person actually has to be inteligent and able to think for themselves under normal circumstances to even have a "brain fart." I don't believe that Ottawa2 meets this criteria. Therefore it is unfair and inappropriate to use the term "brain fart" when describing Ottawa2's mind. This is also insulting to those of us who can actually have "brain farts."
(Pixie) I think the word that we're really looking for to describe Ottawa2 is "BRAIN DEAD". It is a far more descriptive and accurate term.
Please make a note of this. I shouldn't have to tell this you again. :smile:
.[ This Message was edited by: SON OF SERBIA on 2004-08-31 13:44 ]
-
Excerpt from COMMUNIST CONTROL TECHNIQUES AND THEIR EFFECTS, Allen W. Dulles
Director of CIA, 1956
http://mysite.verizon.net/res0g8bp/site ... cument.pdf (http://mysite.verizon.net/res0g8bp/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/CIA_Brainwashing_Document.pdf)
b. The second type of torture is represented by requiring the individual to stand in one spot for several hours or assume some other pain-inducing position.* Such a requirement often engenders in the individual a determination to "stick it out." This internal act of resistance provides a felling of moral superiority at first. As time passes and his pain mounts, however, the individual becomes aware that it is his own original determination to resist that is causing the continuance of pain. A conflict develops within the individual between his moral determination and his desire to collapse and discontinue the pain. It is this extra internal conflict, in addiction to the conflict over whether or not to give in to the demand made of him, that tends to make this method of torture more effective in the breakdown of the individual personality.
* Unnecessary drudgery has the same effect.
Insanity in individuals is something rare - but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule.
--Friedrich Nietzsche
-
Thank you Bryan and SOS. You just proved my point as to why my mother and I have not left the site. If you would just be civilzed and not just spout out personal attacks then my mother would be able to gather her information and then go.
Pixi, dont parents make their kids do chores? Are they being abusive for doing so?
:wave: [ This Message was edited by: Ottawa2 on 2004-08-31 17:10 ]
-
On 2004-08-31 17:10:00, Ottawa2 wrote:
Pixi, dont parents make their kids do chores? Are they being abusive for doing so?
Mind if I offer an opinion here?To say the drug war is a failure is like saying the Hindenburg was short a few fire extinguishers.
Carl Hiassen
-
Bump!
(I think I'm gonna go find a nice, apropos icon for "Bump")The mind is not a vessel to be filled but a fire to be kindled.
-- Plutarch
-
Ok, whenever you can get back to me on specific elements that are helpful in your opinion, great. You know where I stand.
The only thing I could care less about was the manual labor. I liked all the physical work and it was good for me for a few reasons. Frankly, I have to say it was probably the first time some kids learned to sort whites from darks.
Also, I didn't mind the food! I liked the food.
Everything else, in my humble opinion, was questionable, unethical, bad therapy, or worse.
-
Does Bump mean we are finally done with this dumbfuck duo? Can you shut their barks, webmaster? It's insufferable. O5 can continue to learn from us, dumping our guts out and comparing notes for her emotional growth scenarios that she's planning for her new institute, but she should recognize PUBLICLY that her daughter is antagonistic towards all of us.
This little upstart has gotta go. She is purposefully picking fights. Up yours, you little cunt. I'm done being attacked by someone with NO life experience, no care to spell check her postings or enter into useful dialogue...what a total lack of disrespect...no apologies at this time for mudslinging and namecalling.
-blownaway
Oh. and PONY UP THE BOY!
-
On 2004-08-31 21:23:00, blownawaytheidahoway wrote:
"Does Bump mean we are finally done with this dumbfuck duo?
No, Bump means I posted for the sole purpose of bumping this thread up to the top so it wouldn't get lost in trolling in a couple of other threads. Here's what I was bumping.
On 2004-08-31 17:39:00, Antigen wrote:
"
On 2004-08-31 17:10:00, Ottawa2 wrote:
Pixi, dont parents make their kids do chores? Are they being abusive for doing so?
Mind if I offer an opinion here?To say the drug war is a failure is like saying the Hindenburg was short a few fire extinguishers.
Carl Hiassen
"
I even went out and found a nice shiny new icon for the purpose. ::bump:: The overwhelming majority of people have more than the average (mean) number of legs.
-- E. Grebenik
-
SOS, sorry about the "brain fart" you are right, they are brain dead, and trust me... it won't happen again :grin:
-
dude, (O2), they are not chores. they are a punishment! i mean honestly, would you mom make you do all that if you spoke to someone that you weren't allowed to? you are brain dead...[ This Message was edited by: **PIXIE DUST** on 2004-09-02 20:09 ]
-
Pix, I remember you couldn't GLANCE at someone on a ban or you'd be in trouble. I got more dishes for looking at someone on a ban when I was there.
But frankly, I didn't mind the work we did with peers (fire clearing, logging, weeding, climbing trees to saw off branches, making paths etc.). The long drawn out work details (punishment)were hard because you were totally isolated for indefinite periods of time. All day long you couldn't talk to a soul except the occasional cult talk by some staff. But it didn't cause the major anxiety or mental torture of raps.
When I split I got table time. I was on bans from lower students, and alternated between working all day (digging trenches for a pipe system) or table time with writing assignments. Other kids got full times-- do you remember the difference because I forgot.
-
The raps were the worst. The raps were the worst.
-
There were no "tables" when I was at RMA. But there were plenty of full-times. I think I did no real full times even though I did several tables. These tables that were essentiall full times though they never lasted for more than two or three days. Like you said the writing assignments and the forced labor without somone to talk to or music to listen to were brutal, but nothing like raps when you're fucking up. I have been looking at some entries in a journal from RMA and I was often terrified of getting blown away in a rap for no reason. It made me paranoid. Oh...I don't take criticism well now. I would say that I always think mean thing are being said, even when they aren't. I will be delving into the "rap world" this week.
-
Yeah the raps were nothing short of emotional rape. They should call them rapes. Man, I didn't even have to be on the receiving end to DREAD those. I hated watching others go through it and I hated how the source kids had carte blanche to brutalize people unnecessarily. Just for kicks. That is how you "proved" your empowerment.
You know who I also felt sorry for? (You'll think I'm nuts.) The new staff members who thought they were working there to help people and really tried in earnest... but who were really there to "find themselves" and had their own issues and no backbone and demeaned themselves daily telling us their dirt, secrets, pain, degradation, and cop outs. When I was there, all new staff had to do this... THere were ZERO boundaries.
-
I agree wholly with the statement about newer counselors. Yes I do think that you're crazy for it. :lol: