Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Seed Discussion Forum => Topic started by: Bigfrank on July 21, 2002, 09:45:00 AM
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I was in the seed in Miami and Ft. Lauderdale.... The old comer that humiliated me by pulling my pants down and whipping me with the belt was 18 I think, he lived at home with his 2 step brothers and his parents... I will never forget the humiliation, the 2 step brothers were in the seed also and they had 2 new comers staying with them... He told me one day on the way to the seed that if I didn't get up and talk, as I said before I was very shy and I didn't really think this jerks step brothers or parents would really let him do that to me, well I was wrong there, the very next day after my old comer dropped me off, the freak started asking me what he had said the day before, I told him that I had tried but noone called on me, he said that was a cop out and he took off his belt and told me to pull my pants down, I told him that I wasn't going to do that then he grabbed me and told me that I was just making it harde on myself.... He was a lot bigger than me and before I knew it my pants were down right in front of his family and the 2 new comers... His father didn't say one word, he just let him humiliate me like that... I do remember after I was on the program for a few months, I saw the freak back on the front row and I wished he could have become my new comer.... I'm sure you can figure out what I would have done to this freak the second we got into my house......
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Thanks, Frank. Welcome. Your post kind of pisses me off and reminds me of the inhumanity of the whole thing. In the real world, doing that to a 14 year old could get you thrown in jail for several charges. But in the protected world of Juvenile synanon's, anything goes. IyMakes my stomach turn.
There was a recent post on the straight alumni site that claimed a guy stood up in group and admitted having sex with his oldcomer's 11 year old daughter in front of one of the principals. Nothing was ever done.
My question; sex with an 11 year old is typically called rape. Why wasn't this reported. Why wasn't the person arrested?
The whole thing is sickening..
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Yes I agree, it is enough to make you sick.
I would never place my son in such a threatening place.
And they wonder "why" families became so fractured following our release from this program!
I myself could not wait to move out of my father's home!I even went to a lawyer, he drew up a paper for my father to sign allowing me to be out of the house.
It took a lot of courage for me at 15 to ask my father to sign this and let me go! Of course he refused and the next year was more hellish. But he finally did it when I was 16. I just did not want to be dragged back by cops believing I was a runaway!
I calmly and happily walked out those doors and did not return for almost 10 years! I did survive!
[ This Message was edited by: MommaDebi on 2002-07-22 08:56 ]
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Perhaps there was talk about me...I don't know.
I had been working at Aunt Hatties restaurant (& later Uncle Ed's) and handing my paycheck to my father.
He gave me back $10, for my spending money. The rest was room and board.Imagine asking your 14 yr old to pay for the priviledge of living at home: getting beat 3-4 time/week,being called a slut and a whore almost daily (Note,I was still a virgin), cleaning the house daily, and deeply on Sat, (siblings had no chores), setting up dinner between school and work, coming home at 11 pm, doing the dinner dishes, homework and crawling into bed about 1am so I could get up at 5 and do it all over again.
The Williams' family had offered to let me live with them, but my father refused. Oh, How I paid for that request!
Finally, he pulled me out of bed at 3:30 one morning screaming at me and beating me because "How dareI sneak out of the house", "stop pretending you were sleeping" ....I was grounded at the time for a B on my report card.Only allowed to go to school and work. which is truly what i had done! I never snuck out...not once.
I guess the clean dishes, the finished homework, and the folded laundry did not count. I could not prove I had been home, since everybody had been sleeping when I got in and started on my nightly chores.He only broke 2 ribs that night, but I was able to get him to sign that damn paper! I felt so good~~did not know how good I could feel until then.
I got a small apt downtown 3rd St & 6th Ave S. in an older home that had been made into apts. I was the only person under 65 there and I loved it! Cost $90/month including utilities! The electric wires were in metal tubing running along the whole place and I thought it was grand!
My mother came over saw it hated it, but no offer to live w/her family!...soon Dad got me fired from Job, but I was taken in by the older people, they cooked me dinner and left groceries for me...how very kind they were! Then I found another job and moved closer to it as I had no car and relied on the bus system to go to work and school.
I was very lucky.I am very grateful that I survived!
My younger brother came to live with me within 6 months as Dad kicked him out.He lived w/me for 3 years, I never recieved any funds from dad or Mom for him, so I worked 2 jobs for a long time to support him while he went to school.
PS Needless to say I did not let my son get a job until 11th grade, and even then PT only 2-6 pm at a law office in town. He has never had to pay for living with me! I bought his first car, pay his insurance and he has a gas card to use!
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"...every five years I look back on my life and have a good laugh..."
[ This Message was edited by: MommaDebi on 2002-07-23 06:57 ]
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Man, you have been thru it!. I am SO glad you are doing so well now. Is your father and mother still alive? If so, what is your relationship like. I understand what you are talking about with your kids. I am the same way with my son and daughter. Some day I will tell my whole story on this site, but I was also de facto without parents in my teen years, and it was awfull. I lost my dad to the cult, and my mom was a raging alchohlic.I felt like I was robbed of my entire teenage years.
My best buddie Rod was a dishwasher/cook at aunt hatties. I met him after he left St Pete and went to Lauderdale. He is the guy I spoke of in Marnie's post.
Remember him?
I talked to him about a month ago.
Greg.
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Gee greg. i don't know that it was so bad.i am still alive, I read about people that killed their kids all the time...they just tried to kill my spirit...
You know how people always say, If I could only go back in time....never have I said that! Life just gets better for me as I get older and wiser (lol)
My father died several years ago result of his alcoholism and diabetes dual diseases! I had not seen him for some time prior to that (I wrote about it in diff post, I'm sure you'll see it).
My mother and I had come a long way...until I recently found out (Jan) that she has been having a secret relationship,for the last 10 years, with the brother that raped me!!That is truly an unforgivable issue with me. At this time, I am attempting to figure out what type of (if any) relationship she and I will have in the future.
GREG, I do believe that we were in fact robbed of our youth, our innocence, our trust, our ability to bond with and be emotionally intimate with another person...!I also think the 12 Steps are good things to live by, I do work them, but in a much different manner and much safer place than where we were so brutally betrayed.
I think I do remember Rod,ask him if he remembers me, I worked in the salad area in kitchen under Johnny Whipple. I became good friends with many people there, Ron Hilliard,Franklin, Steven,...
_________________
"...every five years I look back on my life and have a good laugh..."
[ This Message was edited by: MommaDebi on 2002-07-23 11:27 ]
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After all this time, I don't want everybody to think that I dwell on the past or the seed, but I have been reading some of these posts, and there has been a lot of talk about getting beaten.. I don't remember anyone except for me getting a beaten... I think in one post Greg said that the staff at the seed would send for a seedlings father to come and do the beating if the seedling was getting to out of hand, but I don't remember anything like that... Did anybody on this forum ever go threw that? I am sure nobody ever went threw the humiliating thing that I went threw, I remember when he was whipping my ass with his belt, I was crying and begging him to stop and at one point I said that he wasn't my father and he said, I know I'm not, that if my father had done this a few times then maybe he wouldn't have had to do it... All I could think of was where does this freak get off, first treating me like a 5 year old by yanking down my pants before taking his belt to me, then making comments on how my father should have whipped my ass like this.... I don't think I would recognize him today because it was so long ago, but since I couldn't get him arressted or didn't know how to do it, I sure would love to turn the tables on him, now that I am bigger and see how he liked being treated like a little kid... I notice a lot of people started in the seed at 14 just like I did, well you can only imagine how I felt being that age and to get "spanked" by a complete stranger.....
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Frank, that is because when they beat someone they would take you in the back offices , away from the group, to beat you. I got my ass whipped by staff on at least three occasions, twice at the old Tropical Park facility, and once after they moved to State Road 84. Once was by a staff member named Mike , who was kind of tall and had light brown hair. The next was by Robert Chun, now mayor of Dania Beach, and a few other guys who whipped my ass, held me down, and let a female staff member cut my hair.
I was 14-15 at the time. Also because I was a little guy they would assign me to bathroom sign in, near the offices, and from time to time shit would happen back there.
[ This Message was edited by: FueLaw on 2002-08-20 15:13 ]
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This is correct. It is not as if everyday someone would get physically restrained or hit or whatever. What happened, at least at St Pete, is that violence was used as a ever present inducemnt to keep you in line.
Thinking about running for the door? Just remember what happened to the last kid; Thrown hard to the floor and 5 door guards piled on and put in a headlock. I remember bloody elbows and screams of pain. Hows that for a deterrent?
Or, feel like acting up in group and telling people to fuck off? A trip to the back "offices" would be in order with a nice compliant misbehavior returning later sheepishly taking his place on second or third row without a peep. What happened to abrubtly change his attitude? Shit-don't know and don't wanna find out..
In St Pete, I believe they had been either decided on their own or willingly had stopped from actually hitting kids (exception-- I witnessed and shamefully participated in roughing up escape attempts) so they would bring the father in to slap around the misbehaviors. This was terrifying to a child. Now maybe the older kids weren't afraid and it was all a big game to them, but when you are 14 (13, 12,11 15,16) this shit is way scary and acutally served its deterrent purpose. It also served to burn a healthy distrust of authority in me.
Not only was violence used, but the Seed handily had the judges and police in their pocket in St Pete, and they were overjoyed to remind you of this constantly. "so you wanna run you punk, GO AHEAD! your stupid ass will be back here before you hit the end of the road, and then we will OWN you for six months" remember this routine?
The seed sure preached love but spewed hate and violence.
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>>>Not only was violence used, but the Seed handily had the judges and police in their pocket in St Pete, and they were overjoyed to remind you of this constantly. <<<
absolutely correct! they also had many a judge in miami too.. alphonso sepe for one judge in particular. this judge would send people left and right to the seed..
weird memories thats for sure..
blue
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You are so right Blue, I mean about having the judges and police on their side... It's funny, but after I read your post I also remembered Judge Sepe... I knew a few people that were sent to the seed from Judge Sepe, he REALLY believed in the seed and all a parent would have to do with him is ask him to send their child to the seed, and he would do it, even if the charge was going to be dropped, he would keep the child in the court system so that he could make them continue with the seed..... Boy, BAD memories from the seed........
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In honor of Frank, I am posting this to bring his initial post back to the top. I think it is important for us all to read. Frank, Go in peace my friend....
GregFL.
A drug is neither moral nor immoral - it's a chemical compound. The compound itself is not a menace to society until a human being treats it as if consumption bestowed a temporary license to act like an asshole.
--Frank Zappa
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Thanks for reposting this thread Greg.
Rest in peace "Big Frank"
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I'm bumping this again for the same reason as Greg. Reading all of Bigfrank's posts, knowing he and I suffered the same humiliations and horrors, and knowing how this, to this day effects the quality of my life. I still suffer to this day, 17 years later, because of this nightmare of a program.
Although I have a 12 year old daughter of my own, whom I would never imprison/send away/take freedom away from, I still grieve for the loss of self I suffered from this place. I'm still trying to shake the aftermath. Still, fighting the humiliation and self loathing induced by The Seed, Straight, Inc. and their spawn.
BTW - I have yet to ever hear of a 13 year old "drug addict." Thousands??? NO f-ing WAY.
::heart:: R.I.P Bigfrank, and all the others.
:nworthy: POWER TO US, THE SURVIVORS. :nworthy: If the natural tendencies of mankind are so bad that it is not safe to permit people to be free, how is it that the tendencies of these organizers are always good? Do not the legislators and their appointed agents also belong to the human race?
--Frederic Bastiat -- 1801-1850
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This was bumped to the top for obvious reasons. Look at the date of the original post. Unfortunately Big Frank is no longer with us. I got racked up a little by some old comers to.
Do you still believe physical abuse never took place ?
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i suppose i will tell some of my story here.. never knew big frank, but damn sorry he's gone somehow that affects me too. consider this in memoriam. i have believed for mANY YEARS THAT I WAS UNIQUELY VULNERABLE TO THE SEED. not so, i begin to see. it wasn't until i read a book on brainwashing that i began to see that my reaction to the seed wasn't character flaw in me, but rather a predictable response , physiologic, not mental.
my story such as it is, and incomplete . at age 13, i was lured by a corrupt family physician into a kind of cult.. 'primal therapy" see website janov, arthur.. that cult is based on the voluntary destruction of personality, which i can tell you is exhausting work! then somehow , the seed got hold of me.. call to parent.. he'll be deadinsaneorinjail.. the familiar route(yeah pun intended) in any event thirty years later i begin to learn the extent of the damage, and that it wasn't my imagination. have been dx'd ptsd, as so many of you have been, and still astonished at the level of criminality and sheer malice involved.. hitler jugund indeed! somehow, oddly, so many who post here have retained their humanity in spite of it all.. as an aside, that gives me a foundation for my embrace of catholicism...(hey lady! i never said i was a GOOD catholic.. just that i was one!) others in this forum have mentioned or alluded to psycho-physical symptom, and i wonder how many out there have suffered as have we. i see a consistent thread of ruined relationships, both personal and occupational , and social. i have lived in an adaptive way since then, have a few intruiging quirks,(nothing perrverse mind you, just things like an odd aversion to clocks, like that).. it oddly, also gives me the foundation for my conservatism. in that i believe that each of us is our own best judge, each of us in individual relationship to god , and that the highest value in society is individual well being, no man can be a responsible participant in society unless he is also free to reject it.. forgive the rant, one and all, (i just love diatribe and polemic)(it's a racial characteristic, i cain't hep it!) also too (lousiana vernacular) herein i've read that so many believe that art barker, et al,"had good intentions" or "meant well" god spare me the saints.. i don't buy it.. no mateer what one believes i think it incumbent "first do no harm" if to follow "good intentions requires lying, co-ercion, subornation of witnesses, perjury, planting evidence, day in and day out physical and mental brutality.. well i refuse to believe good or honest intention to big frank and all the others
responses welcome.. to our tormentors many of us look for remorse but that may never be.. forgiveness is a double edged sword, you may have it, but only if you admit that you need it
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I just don't understand how anyone can think the Seed or similar programs were beneficial. I really don't. How can programs that use coersion, isolation, verbal abuse and identity tear down, and cultic practices be healthy? How can programs be helpful if they are fueled by fear and self loathing? especially when the kids that get ahead are the biggest bullies... I just don't see it. Are people who promote the program saying they needed all that cultic mind wash and entrenched humiliation and badgering to "get better."
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for the most part, yes they say that. They needed it, or they deny it existed.
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Maybe there should be no jails or mental hospitals either. Let them all run free. Legalize heroine while you are at it. What about prostitution too? They will all learn their lessons naturally. No need to intervene. Don't spank your kids either; it may leave deep psychological problems as well. Viva violence and join more gangs. Should I be red or blue??? :idea:
OK I agree the programs that are out there suck, but how can we restructure some to make a difference? We need something without the abuse.
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In response to the anon who said why don't we let them all run free... Well, the truth is, many of us in these programs should run free because there really wasn't much wrong with us to begin with. I mean, I know I wasn't a druggie or criminal. And I know many of the others weren't either. Some of us did need help. I had very low self esteem and had been through some traumatic experiences. I also was bored at school and had a hard time focusing, but I wasn't "bad". Believe me, I wanted to feel better... but being isolated in a situation where coersion, badgering, bullying, and humiliation reigned supreme was NOT the answer. Neither is living in some kind of program derived world, instead of the real world. And frankly, I don't know who the fuck could say it was.
Even if you were a delinquent. Especially so.
I am a teacher and I have a better success rate than my colleagues with "troubled" youths. Why? Because I look for the best in that person. I take the time to find out their gifts and interests. I treat them with respect and firmness, not disdain. Consequences are natural and logical... but I don't treat them like a shit person for getting a bad score. I don't coerce, badger, and humiliate. The ones who are most difficult to understand, I put more effort into getting to know, and most of the time, I find out there is so much more than what meets the eye, and other teachers are missing out.
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Good for you. How nice that you can be that way. but you still did not answer the question. What about the ones you can,t reach??
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This is my attitude when I'm teaching. I shoot to reach them all! And of course, you can't... we're all human and fallible and have different journeys. But I shoot to be a posititve motivator 100%.
I don't care as much as about the A's as I do about their ability to see what is special and good about themselves.
And I've been both a bad student and a great one. The teachers who believed in me when I was a bad student are the ones who planted the seed of promise in my own mind.
All I'm saying is that kids who really do need help or programs are not gonna get it in a place where verbal abuse, coersion, bullying, humiliation are de rigeur, and lack of independent spirit and thought are suppressed. Some just fuck up more, and others may be "scared straight" but that is not necessarily a whole, free thinking person.
There simply is no excuse for bad "therapeutic" practices to help fucked up kids.
A lot of it just accept natural/logical consequences, stop enabling, be loving, and have boundaries.
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Hey! I get confused about this too. I was gonna start a new thread on the $tr8 board but seein' as how ya'll already done went and collected the firewood...mind if I join ya ??
The thing is...I was just thinking today about what a bad kid I actually was. I was a true delinquent. I was an arson by the age of 12. Setting garages in my neighborhood on fire with my little brother. I was a vandal. I spray-painted my whole neighborhood as a 14 year old punk. I used to jump the barbed wire fence to steal the governments own spray paint form their supply depot and then run around the base at night gettin' high and taggin' all the buildings. I stole. I thieved. I couldn't be made to go to school.
I was an angry child. I grew up in a military family. My parents were extremely strict disciplinarians. I was marshalled at every turn. I was not allowed to choose my own path in life. Everything that I expressed interest in was denied to me so I could become what my parents wanted me to be, instead of what I wanted to be. As an example, when I told them I wanted to play the drums in 4th grade they insisted that I learn the saxophone instead. They told me that you never hear of solo drummers performing in concert but saxophonists don't need any accompaniment so they can go solo. I didn't care about that I just wanted to drum. I now know of several drum/percussion ensembles that perform professionally. My folks were completely wrong about that.
Later in about 10th grade, just before I went into $tr8 I told them I wanted to sign up for Vo-tech to learn carpentry and masonary and the like. They insisted that I was too smart :roll:. They wouldn't let me take the classes I wanted to take. I never in my life wanted to go to college, but for some reason they made me take all these college prep type classes as if I didn't know what I really wanted to do or something so I was denied that opportunity as well. I remember how my dad always used to admonish me: "Keep your options open, go to college" But like I wrote above it's like they just never listened to me. I never in my life had any intention of goin' to college. My parents actually shut down all my options by insisting that I was going to college. They preperaed me for a life i didn't want and denied me the tools that I really needed. There is an old hebrew saying: "He that does not teach his son a trade teaches him to be a thief". I am not a thief, or an arson now-a-days but this is what happened.
These are just some examples of the trouble I've had with my folks. There is a whole list of examples I could run through to give evidence of their lack of understanding me or even realizing who I am. I think I turned into such an anti-authoritarian punk-ass rebel anarchist because I've had so little choice in my life. Everything has been dictated to me. I became a bad kid because my parents didn't treat me with respect. Can you understand what I'm struggeling to say here ??
So I ended up on front row at $tr8 Inc by the time I was 16. I spent 23 months in there. Copped out 4 times and was eventually court-ordered and finally manipulated into graduating by the threat of serving time in the VA state penn in Richmond. I came out of $tr8 way, way worse off than I was when I went in.
I don't even know if I've lost track of the topic here now or what, but I get confused about all this. I think being incarcerated at $tr8 was the result of my parents extrememly poor parenting skills.
I'm not trying to relieve myself of all responsibility but I was the child, and the adults who were supposed to be raising me should've had way more respect for me than they did.
I don't know.
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Fuck. Yeah...I really do feel like they just completely sabotaged my life...Like I was born to the wrong parents.
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It's difficult.. parenting. I'm the teacher who wrote before, and I'm certainly not a perfect parent. But what I do strive to do is recognize my children's strengths, gifts, and likes and build on that. I could care less if my sons are doctors or carpenters or candle stick makers. I want them to be happy, self sufficient, and kind. And that's about it. I am very involved as a parent but I'm not overly directive.
Many of us owe our time at the program in large part to very poor parenting. My parenst never parented... they sent me to the progarm in hopes the program could do what they could not.
What I needed was a good mentor, an alternative school (I eventually found one myself), and help with depression/sleep disorder and processing some trauma.
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...yeah...thanks...
I thought about this all day... while I went about my life. I am a parent too, though only a single dad without custody, still, I think about it all quite a bit. I like what you wrote earlier, about the way you approach your students. I am very leary of the public school system, private too, for that matter. But it's like anything else; in the midst of despair we find.
...I can hardly address it without bein slightly drunk and havin' Average White Band on the turntable...
Parenting is difficult...still I am a parent now myself and I am not like my parents in the way that I teach.
I border on hate for my parents. I fear I will not know freedom of mind until they are dead. They have done everything to crush me. I am compassionate toward them.
The last time my dad was in town we were sitting across the table from each other, with our family members around, in a restaraunt...staring at each other...I was burning hate with my eyes into him and he was staring back at me, in shame and disbelief. He felt me and I came to...There were no words.
I hold my anger and I forgive them...but I am still crushed.
Thankyou...peace.
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the crux of this conversation is basically, what do you do with kids that wont close ranks and act antisocial or self destructive.
The answer is we dont know anything that parenting cant and doesnt. Tearing a kid down and rebuilding him in the image of a group, group leader, or corporate philosophy is obviously harmfull to a great percentage of the kids that have experienced it. Also, the suicides, drug addiction, alcholosim, mental illness and PTSD, post program, is evidence of the failure of this approach.
If a kid is acting out, a parent should use every tool in his DIRECT intuitive power to figure out what is going on and try to address it. Sometimes that doesnt even work. Some kids have internal self destructive triggers, criminal intentions, and sociapathic personality traits. You cannot zipededodah these away.
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Legalize heroine while you are at it. What about prostitution too?
Actually, that would be a good start. Do you really believe prohibition does anything else but add to the crime rate? Ever hear of Al Capone? The crime associated with those particular endeavors is due to the fact that it's illegal. There would be no drug crime if drugs were legal.
They will all learn their lessons naturally. No need to intervene.
That's more true than you'd like to believe.
Don't spank your kids either; it may leave deep psychological problems as well.
I think I spanked my kids maybe twice in their lives. There really isn't much of a need for it if you're a smart parent.
OK I agree the programs that are out there suck, but how can we restructure some to make a difference? We need something without the abuse.
You can't. You can't force change on someone without the damage. Not possible. The percentage of teens that actually need to be removed from the home is infantesimally small and those kids are severely emotionally or mentally disturbed and need real, professional treatment.
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Rebellion and acting out are a part of growing up. Sometimes it's THE most important part. Parents start to freak when we realize that our kids are growing a mind of their own. Until then it was easy for us to 'control' them (for lack of a better term). When they start to think for themselves they question what they've been taught. THey question and test everything. One of the most important things I did when my oldest was behaving like a friggin' maniac was to no over-react. It was hard, I was scared most of about 3 years, but with guidance (not control), patience, good friends (both hers and mine) and REAL conversations about drugs etc. (not the overblown hype and scare tactics used today) she came through it. From what I've seen of my friends with kids, it's been pretty much the same experience. The kids whom I've seen have real troubles are the ones whose parents are extrememly strict and controlling. No, I"m not saying you let them 'run wild', but you do give them room to grow. Sometimes that means they'll get hurt, it's part of the process.
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...yeah...thanks...
I thought about this all day... while I went about my life. I am a parent too, though only a single dad without custody, still, I think about it all quite a bit. I like what you wrote earlier, about the way you approach your students. I am very leary of the public school system, private too, for that matter. But it's like anything else; in the midst of despair we find.
...I can hardly address it without bein slightly drunk and havin' Average White Band on the turntable...
Parenting is difficult...still I am a parent now myself and I am not like my parents in the way that I teach.
I border on hate for my parents. I fear I will not know freedom of mind until they are dead. They have done everything to crush me. I am compassionate toward them.
The last time my dad was in town we were sitting across the table from each other, with our family members around, in a restaraunt...staring at each other...I was burning hate with my eyes into him and he was staring back at me, in shame and disbelief. He felt me and I came to...There were no words.
I hold my anger and I forgive them...but I am still crushed.
Thankyou...peace.
Man that is kinda a crazy post...I been thinkin on this ever since I wrote about my burnin hate for my dad. As I thought about it more and more I began to think it wasn't so much hate as just searin desire for understanding. I mean there was no fuckin around about it. I looked way into him for a good long while. I lost track of the time. I lost track of myself. When I came to, I noticed him lookin at me, real composed like. I felt like I had been out of my body somewhere.
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Fuck. Yeah...I really do feel like they just completely sabotaged my life...Like I was born to the wrong parents.
Parents choose to have kids and I believe that most really need to takes some classes, do some drugs or just not have kids. Seeing that we develop a good part of our personality by 7 but all of it before we are an adult, our parents have a HUGE responsibility to take the job they chose seriously. Of course your parents probably thought they were, which is fucked up. I can't imagine having a child with the intention of trying to dictate their path in life. A lot of parents do it, mine did as well and it's hard to not be somewhat upset. I mean to me, it's just common sense. We are individuals and we should want our children to discover life and themselves and the ups and downs, truth, knowledge all that.
But you know what, if you weren't born to them you wouldn't have your beautiful daughter, so it sucked but you created something beautiful out of it none the less. Ok that's all, carry on. lol
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Man that is kinda a crazy post...I been thinkin on this ever since I wrote about my burnin hate for my dad. As I thought about it more and more I began to think it wasn't so much hate as just searin desire for understanding. I mean there was no fuckin around about it. I looked way into him for a good long while. I lost track of the time. I lost track of myself. When I came to, I noticed him lookin at me, real composed like. I felt like I had been out of my body somewhere.
that wasn't crazy, i used to think i hated my dad, and i definitely don't like him but no need for me to hate his sorry ass. it just takes time to really understand where its all really coming from too so that post was probably exactly how you were feeling at the time. i feel ya on the understanding thing, I think we all want to be understood and accepted for who we are, especially by our family. :-?
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Yeah.
Can I just describe what happened a little ??
'cause I never experienced nothin like that before or since. It felt like a once in a lifetime deal.
It felt like the most intense communication of my life. I have no memory of the physical world during the experience.
My dad and I were sittin at the end of a rectangular table, directly across from each other. We were at the restaraunt that the family likes to go to when they come ta town. It's right around the corner here. 2 of my uncles were there, 1 of which is a Vietnam vet. His wife, 1 aunt. The oldest survivn' member of my grandparents generation; her 3rd husband who is a WW2 vet. And all the relatives were seated together up-table. I sat down across from my old man, who is a Vietnam vet, at one end of the table. These people are all kind hearted folks.
I was not doin no song and dance for no-one. I was serious. There were no pretenses. I was silent unless addressed.
My dad sat across from me and I looked at him. I looked straight into his eyes. I lost all my senses. I lost my sense of self. I asked all my questions without even speaking or gesturing or moving in the least. It took a while...I stayed there though and waited with all the patience of a mighty God. Telepathic.
I waited til I had searched all through him for the answers. He could not look away. He is tricky. Ever'body tricky.
I don't even remember if anyone was talking around us, or to me, at all, while our eyes were locked. I couldn't hear. My world was silent. I didn't know what was happening around me. I felt as if my intelligence had left my body and gone into him through his eyes. It was aggressive on my part, this is what I was confusing with hate. Aggressive but not malicious at all. It was a desperation for understanding.
I don't have any idea whether it lasted for a few seconds or 2 minutes. No idea. But when I came to, it was as if I had been hypnotized. When I came back into myself I began to recognize my fathers face, his eyes on mine. I pulled back and was cool. He was composed and very aware. It was real intense but not too awkward, really. Now I am still decipherin all the abstractions I found.
Can you dig it?!
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Yeah.
Can I just describe what happened a little ??
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Can you dig it?!
Well when I said it wasn't crazy i meant "the post". Fuck yeah I can dig it. It was an intense experience, and I'm sure you were enlightened that night in a big way too, tends to go hand in hand. Do you think you found out some what you "asked" that night?
And it does suck cuz we can't choose our parents yet they can be fucking mental cases like my dippy dad and choose to birth or even adopt us and then still don't choose to be parents. I've never been able to even fathom not "loving" my child, if i had one. Can't conceive of it, yet there are people out there like that.
You're a great dad and should be proud. I guess dysfunctional dads like ours do exist and we have to come to terms with that, we must realize we are powerless lol how true that is though ahhaha.
so yeah, it's been dug! 8-)
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Thanks, I don't really blame my dad too much. His dad was way fucked up and was mean and abusive toward him when he was young.
I mean what can you do ?? It's a short and merry life for us,... 'Ey lads ?!?!
::bandit:: :skull: ::dove::
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I just spent an hour and a half writing my bio, but it disappeared... nothing new for the Seed. I've been reasearching the Seed, Art, Mel, and all of the tie-ins, for three days- it reads like a John Grisham novel. My husband and my sister ( sis was incarcerated like me) say I should write the novel. Did anyone realize Bush, Sr. was in Dallas the day JFK was shot, and was trying to pin it on someone else? How did Mel Sembler get from Seedling Parent to Ambassador to Italy? My father ran the lab for E.P.A., had two Master's degrees in engineering, had worked for Battelle Memorial Institute (they did research on the effect of L.S.D. on Spiders- I remember it from Weekly Reader), but I suppose he was not wealthy enough to bilk. Sis had it a lot harder than me.. I turned 18 and walked out of the Seed, and hitchhiked into my REAL life. She graduated and was thus delayed a good twenty years.
She'll be posting soon, too. I'm the one who conned the cons.
Christie
remember two sheets of T.P?- Sis reminded me of 1,2, or 3? THAT'S why they went to the bathroom with us!
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Cool, welcome!
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My sister told me about this website over the weekend. Wow. Brings back lots of bad memories....but I've learned that forgiving the past is extremely important, so I'll read on. I was at the Fort Lauderdale Seed spring of '74 - January '75. It changed my life, for sure. It turned me into someone I didn't know for thirty years. More later...maybe.
Joy
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welcome Ladies! Have fun researching all the posts and then please tell us what you remember about your time in the seed.
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Hey Joy, I think I vaguely remember hearing your name from way back when. Remember any McNultys?
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I was doing a search on The Seed, Fort Lauderdale, to learn whatever became of that place and Art Barker. I stumbled across Marc Polonsky's article on his experience at the facility as a youth. In his reply, Marc sent me a link to this message board.
Florida was supposed to be a tropical paradise with pelicans or a rare sight of a pod of dolphins swimming in the Atlantic. Instead, it was eight months of pure hell! I was at The Seed from August, 1978 to March, 1979, but it seemed like an eternity. When I finally departed from that hell-hole and returned to Chicago, I did not believe that I was actually free of The Seed and Art Barker until I was actually on the flight back to the Windy City.
The bathroom door had to be unlocked while I was doing my business, practicing my faith was prohibited (even prayer was taboo!), I surrendered my jewelry at the insistence of my oldcomer, and that's just for starters! It was THE most difficult period of my life and it took me looong time to heal, both emotionally and psychologically.
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Welcome! Marc's article was really good!
I am glad you found this website. While it isn't as active as it once was, there is a treasure-trove of information within. Further, people can validate your experiences that until now were probably your own private hell.
I too suffered pyschological terror while in the Seed. Many of us did, and there are valid reasons why we felt that way. The Seed was a nightmare of 60s pop culture mixed with totalitarian hero worship and cultic 'recovery' methods that included well established techniques used on prisoners of war to modify their behavior. These included sleep deprivation, love bombing, isolation from peers,ridicule,witholding of bathroom priviledges, family affection for submission, rejection of all outsiders, among other modalities.
How in the hell so many people were duped, I'll never understand. It speaks volumes for the collective low intelligence and gullibility of humankind
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Art Barker, Libby, John Underwood and company are some of the most disgraceful human beings to ever exist.
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Julio, go get some help.
If you have that much hatred in your heart (wanting to urinate on someone's grave or hating and naming people) you need help to get rid of the anger or the anger will kill you. Good luck with that!
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Who said anything remotely resembling what you are accusing her of saying? She said they were disgraceful, and certainly the The Seed in the early 70s was anything but something to be proud of and resulted in an entire barrage of copycat treatment centers that have abused kids right on up to...right now.
This is a disgrace. However, I personally think that these things happened a long time ago which gives plenty of room for reflection and change on the responsible parties. Unfortunately, we haven't really seen much evidence of this.
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I think I may have been the most naive seedling who ever drank the Kool-aid. I did not have to go to Viet Nam the way my husband did, but what ever I endured did not half way compare with his situation. I am, however grateful that I was able to overcome my own demons and walk in the sunshine. And don't foget, when I was going into the Seed, 1972. My husband had already done three tours in Viet Nam. We think we were suffering, but at the same time, we were only sitting on hard chairs, eating moldy peanut butter sandwiches...
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Sure. And losing your finger doesn't hurt as much as losing your arm. I am not sure your point, Suzie. Sure, being in the Seed wasn't the worse thing that could have happened to someone.
Agreed.
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Who said anything remotely resembling what you are accusing her of saying? She said they were disgraceful, and certainly the The Seed in the early 70s was anything but something to be proud of and resulted in an entire barrage of copycat treatment centers that have abused kids right on up to...right now.
This is a disgrace. However, I personally think that these things happened a long time ago which gives plenty of room for reflection and change on the responsible parties. Unfortunately, we haven't really seen much evidence of this.
it was written in this post
Dates/Locations of The Seed's Growth & Decline
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what happened to big frank?
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The Seed helped a lot of people too. Obviously there were some in positions of some authority who shouldn'y have been. I also don't think 11 year olds should have been there either. I was 18, had already lived on the street for 2 years and two winters in Connecticut sleeping on park benches in 17 degree weather and blizzards, and before that had been forcefully (literally) put in three successive mental institutions by my parents who thought, somehow, they were helping me, before returned to Boca Raton at age 18. I'd been on heroin, cocaine, speed, mesc, mushroons, dropped liquid acid in my eyes as well as shot it, and all the rest, and the Seed did indeed help me save my life. Some of the people at the Seed died as a result of the drugs they had done. I respect the fact that many unpleasant things happed to some, but you must also respect the fact that it helped a lot of people. One person at this site has already called me a "fucking moron" for saying the Seed helped me. That person doesn't know a thing about me but judged me as a bad person for saying I was helped. For the person who was humiliated withnaked beltings, all I can say is that you have to get over it. How can I say that? How do I know what you went through? Well, the actions were different, but I was molested at knifepoint when I was 12 years old, in Newport, RI. I had a choice after that, to let it get in my way for the rest of my life and use it as the best excuse for screwing up, or get over it and get on with my life. Kinda the same approach I used 6 years later when the courts put me in the Seed. I was there for 15 months. Respect isn't a breach of discipline, which means that people in a position of authority should respect those in their care, even if they are junior. I used that philosophy during my navy career. When I was selected to staff after 8 months I practised what I preached and, like Clay, Pete, Susie and others, tried to put smiles rather than fear and teror in peoples faces. If that was not your experience in the Seed then all I can say is make the best with anything you may have leared that was positive and pay it forward. Leave the world a little better than you found it for having you in it. The only negative thing I have never getten over was John Underwood, but that was for something that happened in 3rd grade back in upstate NY 42 years ago (1959)!
:karma: