Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: amiee101 on July 03, 2002, 04:56:00 PM
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I attended both Cross Creek Manor, and Provo Canyon School. The similarities are astounding. Both based on the same basic structure, but I have to say that I took more damage from Cross Creek Manor. The damage I sustained from PCS was minimal -- but only in comparison to CCM. I am interested in articles and facts about the Lichfield programs (Majestic Ranch included, as that is owned by Bob Lichfields wifes father) and what we can do to make sure that no other kids have to go through what we did.
My roommate also attended Cross Creek Manor.
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On 2002-07-03 13:56:00, amiee101 wrote:
I attended both Cross Creek Manor, and Provo Canyon School. The similarities are astounding. Both based on the same basic structure, but I have to say that I took more damage from Cross Creek Manor. The damage I sustained from PCS was minimal -- but only in comparison to CCM. I am interested in articles and facts about the Lichfield programs (Majestic Ranch included, as that is owned by Bob Lichfields wifes father) and what we can do to make sure that no other kids have to go through what we did.
My roommate also attended Cross Creek Manor.
You can start by posting your story, what happened to you, why you feel these programs are abusive. Do some research into the origins of the modality they used. Then, talk to someone here about hosting a discussion site. All you need is the desire and a little time, the vehicle is already here. Good luck.
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This is my working file on Teen Help. If anyone has links to add, please pass them along. It is by no means complete, just began last week.
D
TEEN HELP WWASP Utah
BOD: Bob Lichfield, Brent Facer, J. Ralph Atkin
Executive Director Karr Farnsworth
Ken Kay Brightway Administrator
Jay Kay Tranquility Bay director and former hospital administrator
Teen Help is an umbrella name for a consortium of companies headquartered in the red canyonlands of southwestern Utah. Parents training in separate multiday seminars, patterned after 1970s-era pop group-awareness sessions of est and LifeSpring.
http://www.denver-rmn.com/desperate/sit ... esp4.shtml (http://www.denver-rmn.com/desperate/site-desperate/0702desp4.shtml)
Psychologist Margaret Singer, professor emeritus at the U of C at Berkeley, says that Teen Help practices "large group awareness training," a technique designed to turn an individual into an instrument of a larger group.
http://www.denver-rmn.com/desperate/sit ... esp7.shtml (http://www.denver-rmn.com/desperate/site-desperate/0702desp7.shtml)
David Gilcrease, designed Teen Help's BM seminars
http://www.denver-rmn.com/desperate/sit ... esp9.shtml (http://www.denver-rmn.com/desperate/site-desperate/0702desp9.shtml)
David Gilcrease's bio, and a mother's account of the seminar.
http://www.intrepidnetreporters.com/Tee ... eaking.htm (http://www.intrepidnetreporters.com/TeenHelp/breaking.htm)
Rules for Seminar
http://www.intrepidnetreporters.com/Tee ... rogram.htm (http://www.intrepidnetreporters.com/TeenHelp/tasks_training_program.htm)
1/8/1998 TH Incorporated in Utah as a domestic non-profit
http://www.intrepidnetreporters.com/Tee ... _wwasp.htm (http://www.intrepidnetreporters.com/TeenHelp/what_is_the_wwasp.htm)
Conglomerate of programs and facilities
http://www.factnet.org/letters/letter.html (http://www.factnet.org/letters/letter.html)?
FACTNet
Shady business practices: unqualified staff, spamdexing
http://www.intrepidnetreporters.com/Tee ... exing.html (http://www.intrepidnetreporters.com/TeenHelp/spamdexing.html)
Participant referral fees paid
http://www.intrepidnetreporters.com/Tee ... pidnet.htm (http://www.intrepidnetreporters.com/TeenHelp/asi_disses_intrepidnet.htm)
Spamdexing is obviously a flagrant violation of all search engine guidelines," says Pursley. "But it is more than that. The whole site is a violation of advertising ethics. For me it's a lot more relevant than some abstract cyber-issue, because it affects real people's lives: It misleads people about what options are available for their kids. These schools are absolutely unethical and manipulative from beginning to end -- from search engine rules to how they actually treat the kids."
http://archive.salon.com/21st/feature/1 ... ature.html (http://archive.salon.com/21st/feature/1998/02/cov_23feature.html)
CRITICS:
http://archive.salon.com/21st/feature/1 ... ture2.html (http://archive.salon.com/21st/feature/1998/02/cov_23feature2.html)
Reason for the convoluted ownership situation is to shield Bob Lichfield from liability
http://archive.salon.com/21st/feature/1 ... ture2.html (http://archive.salon.com/21st/feature/1998/02/cov_23feature2.html)
0/2001 Political contributions to Rep Party #3 Teen Help LLC $158,790.
Top Soft Money Donors #3 Teen Help $125,000 LLC. LICHFIELD, ROBERT B
LAVERKIN, UT $125,000. FACER, BRENT M
ST GEORGE, UT $500
http://www.opensecrets.org/states/contr ... &Year=2002 (http://www.opensecrets.org/states/contrib.asp?State=UT&Year=2002)
Adolescent Services International- Referral Service
Narvin Lichfield Owner
Promotes TH WWASP programs as RTC, but licensed as Res Service Prog.
http://www.intrepidnetreporters.com/TeenHelp/a (http://www.intrepidnetreporters.com/TeenHelp/a)
si_disses_intrepidnet.htm
Fraudulent Advertising
ASI presents as a "service" center for parents dealing with "teens in crisis," with strong implication that it is unaffiliated with particular schools. But Adolescent Services was founded last year by a man named Narvin Lichfield, who for the previous seven years had been the managing director of Teen Help, the marketing wing of the WWASP.
http://archive.salon.com/21st/feature/1 ... ture2.html (http://archive.salon.com/21st/feature/1998/02/cov_23feature2.html)
Brightway Adolescent Hospital (closed)
18-bed adolescent hospital, 24-bed adult treatment hospital. Licensed by the Utah Dept of Health to the Utah Alcoholism Foundation, the units were in fact run since 1993 under contract to a group of Southern Utah businesses.
http://www.intrepidnetreporters.com/Tee ... nly_...htm (http://www.intrepidnetreporters.com/TeenHelp/there_is_no_right_or_wrong_only_...htm)
8/1997 Authorities restricted license,
facility failed to report suspected case of child abuse and repeatedly treated teenagers before getting both parents' permission
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... N73509.DTL (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/1998/03/19/MN73509.DTL)
2/1998 Utah officials said the hospital failed to report two cases of suspected tuberculosis and failed to provide individualized treatment plans for its charges.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... N73509.DTL (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/1998/03/19/MN73509.DTL)
3/1998 Adolescent unit closed voluntarily after several disciplinary citations by the Dept of Health.
http://www.intrepidnetreporters.com/Tee ... only_..htm (http://www.intrepidnetreporters.com/TeenHelp/there_is_no_right_or_wrong_only_..htm)
3/19/1998 closed by its owner this week after numerous complaints by state
regulators over how it treated troubled teenagers, some of whom were later shipped to overseas boot camps.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... N73509.DTL (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/1998/03/19/MN73509.DTL)
Carolina Springs Academy--Donalds/Due West, South Carolina, USA (See S. Carolina Programs file)
Casa By the Sea--Ensenada, Mexico
Cross Creek Manor--LaVerkin, Utah, USA
Teen Help WWASP program
http://www.factnet.org/letters/letter.html?FACTNet (http://www.factnet.org/letters/letter.html?FACTNet)
CCM, originally incorporated in 1990 as a Utah Corporation by Robert Lichfield, voluntarily dissolved, March 25, 1997. Incorporated as an LLC 3/25/97 and owned by Recaf, Inc. and JILL-CO, Inc. both Nevada Corporations. Officers, members of the Lichfield,Facer,Atkin family.
http://www.intrepidnetreporters.com/Tee ... etter.html (http://www.intrepidnetreporters.com/TeenHelp/karrletter.html)
Staff members at CCM are "employed" by the employee leasing firm Resource Management, Inc.
http://www.intrepidnetreporters.com/Tee ... pidnet.htm (http://www.intrepidnetreporters.com/TeenHelp/asi_disses_intrepidnet.htm)
11/13/1998 Celece Dochterman (12) abused. Parents file lawsuit, one week after Morava closed.
http://www.intrepidnetreporters.com/Tee ... wsuit.html (http://www.intrepidnetreporters.com/TeenHelp/lawsuit.html)
http://www.desnews.com/cgi-bin/libstory ... 9811220397 (http://www.desnews.com/cgi-bin/libstory_reg?dn98&9811220397)
2/1999 Marie Peart Adm Dir, part of WWASP, remodel
http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... een03.html (http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives/1999/2/seen03.html)
Linden House for Pregnant Teens--Saint George, Utah (See Utah Programs file)
Morava Academy--Brno, Czech Republic (closed)
11/9/1998 under investigation after the arrests of four staff members including the American Director, Glenn Roach for abusing children in their care. An unscheduled visit by American diplomats yielded evidence of
physical abuse and neglect. Czech police have filed charges.
http://www.intrepidnetreporters.com/Tee ... orava.html (http://www.intrepidnetreporters.com/TeenHelp/morava.html)
Links to other articles
http://www.intrepidnetreporters.com/Tee ... uments.htm (http://www.intrepidnetreporters.com/TeenHelp/teenhelpdocuments.htm)
Roach's were also involved with Sunrise Beach which was closed.
http://www.intrepidnetreporters.com/Tee ... beach.html (http://www.intrepidnetreporters.com/TeenHelp/sunrisebeach.html)
MAJESTIC RANCH Randolph, Utah
Affiliated with Teen Help/ WWASP (see Utah Programs file)
1991 Jodi Tuttle and Carol Gundry refer for retainer, not commission
http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... een01.html (http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives/1991/8/seen01.html)
6/1992 Majestic Ranch Review at Strugglingteens
http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... /np02.html (http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives/1992/6/np02.html)
2/1997 Purchase of land from Steve and Nancy Cowdrey of Spring Creek
http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... ews04.html (http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives/1997/2/news04.html)
Majestic part of WWASAP, opened in 1997
http://www.denver-rmn.com/desperate/sit ... rate.shtml (http://www.denver-rmn.com/desperate/site-desperate/mpg8-desperate.shtml)
Intrepid inquires about ownership, assoc with WWASAP
http://www.intrepidnetreporters.com/Tee ... etter.html (http://www.intrepidnetreporters.com/TeenHelp/karrletter.html)
6/2002 Att General Press Release
http://attygen.state.ut.us/Press%20Rele ... 014%202002 (http://attygen.state.ut.us/Press%20Releases/pressreleases%20June%2014%202002)
..htm
http://www.political1.com/Utah/6.4.02.ag.PR2.asp (http://www.political1.com/Utah/6.4.02.ag.PR2.asp)
6/2002 Dir Wayne E. Winder charged with Sexual Abuse. Owners say their facility is a boarding school. However, the state classifies the ranch as a RTC. The Office of Licensing has sent a letter notifying the owners they need a Human Services license to operate
http://www.sltrib.com/2002/jun/06152002/utah/745780.htm (http://www.sltrib.com/2002/jun/06152002/utah/745780.htm)
Paradise Cove--Apia, Western Samoa
Enrollment Agreement -Contract
http://www.intrepidnetreporters.com/Tee ... #Restraint (http://www.intrepidnetreporters.com/TeenHelp/contract.htm#Restraint)
Randy Cook's account of being escorted to Brightway, then PC
http://www.intrepidnetreporters.com/Tee ... only_..htm (http://www.intrepidnetreporters.com/TeenHelp/there_is_no_right_or_wrong_only_..htm)
Randy Rogers account of being escorted to Brightway then PC
http://www.intrepidnetreporters.com/Tee ... only_..htm (http://www.intrepidnetreporters.com/TeenHelp/there_is_no_right_or_wrong_only_..htm)
Rules and Consequences
http://www.intrepidnetreporters.com/Tee ... e_cove.htm (http://www.intrepidnetreporters.com/TeenHelp/consequencesparadise_cove.htm)
Newsletter for parents with teens at PC
http://www.vpp.com/teenhelp/pokis.html (http://www.vpp.com/teenhelp/pokis.html)
9/1998 State Dept received "credible allegations" of abuse at Paradise Cove. Kay says he knew nothing about the investigation.
http://www.denver-rmn.com/desperate/sit ... esp4.shtml (http://www.denver-rmn.com/desperate/site-desperate/0702desp4.shtml)
11/17/1998 STANLEY GOOLD, III files lawsuit. COMPLAINT FOR NEGLIGENCE; NEGLIGENT CHILD ABUSE; FALSE IMPRISONMENT; INTENTIONAL INFLICTION OF EMOTIONAL DISTRESS; BREACH OF FIDUCIARY DUTY; RICO; NEGLIGENT INFLICTION OF EMOTIONAL DISTRESS
http://www.intrepidnetreporters.com/Tee ... dsuit.html (http://www.intrepidnetreporters.com/TeenHelp/gooldsuit.html)
3/21/2000 Corey Murphy commits suicide after 32 mo in TH Montana and Paridise Cove, W. Samoa. Ken Kay says that only two or three kids in the program have committed suicide, while hundreds have benefited.
http://www.denver-rmn.com/desperate/sit ... esp1.shtml (http://www.denver-rmn.com/desperate/site-desperate/0702desp1.shtml)
5/2000 TH ends its relationship with Paradise Cove.
http://www.denver-rmn.com/desperate/sit ... esp4.shtml (http://www.denver-rmn.com/desperate/site-desperate/0702desp4.shtml)
Redrock Ranch Academy--Saint George, Utah, USA
Teen Help WWASP Program
http://www.factnet.org/letters/letter.html?FACTNet (http://www.factnet.org/letters/letter.html?FACTNet)
12/25/2001 Katherine Lank dies. Multiple violations of regs, state filed "notice of intent to revoke license", remains open pending protest hearing. Ratio 2:9 (law 1:4), hiking unsupervised in dangerous area, least experienced staff,
http://www.sltrib.com/2002/jul/07192002/utah/754809.htm (http://www.sltrib.com/2002/jul/07192002/utah/754809.htm)
5/2002 Salt Lake Tribune, $6 million wrongful-death lawsuit by parents of
Katherine Lank, who fell into a deep crevice while hiking, also demanded a jury trial.
http://www.strugglingteens.com/seennheard/index.html (http://www.strugglingteens.com/seennheard/index.html)
Spring Creek Lodge--Thompson Falls, Montana (See Montana Programs file)
1999 TH/WWASP's ASI (referral service) lists SCL as a RTC, licensed as a RSP in Utah, no license in Montana.
http://www.intrepidnetreporters.com/Tee ... pidnet.htm (http://www.intrepidnetreporters.com/TeenHelp/asi_disses_intrepidnet.htm)
Sunrise Beach--Cancun, Mexico (closed)
Immigration officials at Cancun Airport arrested Glenda and Steve Roach as well as two Mexican Nationals on a variety of charges including depriving juveniles of their liberty. Because the charges included an ongoing investigation of sexual abuse the couple was held initially without bail.
http://www.intrepidnetreporters.com/Tee ... beach.html (http://www.intrepidnetreporters.com/TeenHelp/sunrisebeach.html)
Glenda and Steve Roach also involved with Morava (see below)
http://www.intrepidnetreporters.com/Tee ... orava.html (http://www.intrepidnetreporters.com/TeenHelp/morava.html)
Tranquility Bay--Treasure Beach Jamaica
8/13/1997 David and Scott Burke abducted and sent to PC by Houston Stockbroker father, Stoney Burke. Mother Donna wasn't told. First stop, Brightway.
http://www.intrepidnetreporters.com/Tee ... _burke.htm (http://www.intrepidnetreporters.com/TeenHelp/scotty_burke.htm)
11/1997 David Van Blarigan abducted.
http://archive.salon.com/21st/feature/1 ... ture2.html (http://archive.salon.com/21st/feature/1998/02/cov_23feature2.html)
1/1998 Van Blarigan appealed to legal authorities to get him out
http://archive.salon.com/21st/feature/1 ... ture2.html (http://archive.salon.com/21st/feature/1998/02/cov_23feature2.html)
4/20/1998 Social worker ordered to visit TB, her account.
http://www.intrepidnetreporters.com/Tee ... ty_bay.htm (http://www.intrepidnetreporters.com/TeenHelp/insidetranquility_bay.htm)
9/25/1998 Justin Goen abducted, links to numerous Colubumia Dispatch articles at
http://www.intrepidnetreporters.com/Tee ... uments.htm (http://www.intrepidnetreporters.com/TeenHelp/teenhelpdocuments.htm)
1/15/1999 A Mother's Account Karen E Lile
http://www.intrepidnetreporters.com/Tee ... lile2.html (http://www.intrepidnetreporters.com/TeenHelp/karen_lile2.html)
4/29/1999 Donna Burke (Tx) files lawsuit. NEGLIGENCE; NEGLIGENT CHILD ABUSE; FALSE IMPRISONMENT; INTENTIONAL INFLICTION OF EMOTIONAL DISTRESS; BREACH OF FIDUCIARY DUTY; RICO; NEGLIGENT INFLICTION OF EMOTIONAL DISTRESS
http://www.intrepidnetreporters.com/Tee ... awsuit.htm (http://www.intrepidnetreporters.com/TeenHelp/burkelawsuit.htm)
5/14/1999 Kathleen Thornton sues People Mag for article with picture of her son.
http://www.registerguard.com/news/19990 ... .0514.html (http://www.registerguard.com/news/19990514/1b.cr.peoplesuit.0514.html)
11/1997 David Van Blarigan abducted.
http://archive.salon.com/21st/feature/1 ... ture2.html (http://archive.salon.com/21st/feature/1998/02/cov_23feature2.html)
Youth Programs International (defunct)
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PROVO CANYON Provo, Utah
Farnsworth, Lichfield, and Facer of Teen Help WWSAP are veterans of Provo Canyon (see Teen Help Utah)
http://www.intrepidnetreporters.com/Tee ... wsuit.html (http://www.intrepidnetreporters.com/TeenHelp/lawsuit.html)
Unofficial Alumni Website-personal stories
http://papamugz.tripod.com/ (http://papamugz.tripod.com/)
A personal account
http://www.beyondbusiness.net/index2.htm (http://www.beyondbusiness.net/index2.htm)
9/1982 Lawsuit MILONAS v. WILLIAMS, violations of First and Fourteenth Amendment rights
http://papamugz.tripod.com/page13.html (http://papamugz.tripod.com/page13.html)
8/1996 Celebrates 25 yrs
http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... een03.html (http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives/1996/8/seen03.html)
30 July 03
NOTE: If you have problems with any of the Intrepid Net Reporter links, type in
http://www.intrepidnetreporters.com (http://www.intrepidnetreporters.com)
Notice that "reporter" is now plural, with an "s".
Deborah
[ This Message was edited by: Deborah on 2003-07-30 17:21 ]
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If anyone has any information at all on the family school in new york can you please email me back and let me know thank you!
[email protected]
Britt-
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"In the burgeoning new industry that promises parents to straighten out their defiant teens, no programs are more controversial than those linked by several Utah-based umbrella groups [WWASP, Teen Help]. One of the programs, in Mexico, was shut by local authorities in 1996. A program in the Czech Republic was shut by local authorities last fall. A third, Brightway Adolescent Hospital in St. George, Utah, closed during a state investigation last year."
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Here is a link to an interesting article in the Deseret Morning News about the lack of regulatory control over boarding schools in Utah.
http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,510033604,00.html (http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,510033604,00.html)
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What is the percentage of parents that believe everything they read? Could it be the same parents that are always rescuing their kid and blaming someone else for their behavior? Or could it be the same parents that believe everything their kid says even though the evidence shows otherwise? Are they the parents that make excuses for their kid over and over again so THEY don't look bad? How are they doing anyway? Are they successful because YOU did it for them? Are these the same parents that read letters from their kid claiming abuse at a WWASP school and believed it? Oh, by the way, if the mail is censored, then how did that get by the censors?? LOL!!
One thing I find extremely fascinating is that you blast parents that go the distance to save their kid from dangerous choices. Are you not saying that a parent who has their kid in a "program" shouldn't be a parent? Oh YES you say! Are you saying that a parent has no rights...only their child who rules the family and creates chaos...that's okay here! It's okay to do whatever they please, when they please and their should be no consequences? Consequences didn't work anyway. These are the same kids that may call the police and say their parents hit them when the parents "try to be a parent" and attempt to enforce discipline by grounding or taking away priviledges. These are the same kids that constantly say, "there's nothing you can do" while the parents are taking anti-depressents just to be able, in some way, to deal with it. These kids know the drill...call the cops to get the parents off their back!! These are parents that are on the verge of losing their jobs (both parents are working to buy the kid his/her "things")because they are getting calls from the school because their kid has decided they don't want to go anymore. These are parents that have done everything for their kid, only the kid keeps wanting more and more until they are almost broke from trying to please their kid. The single mom who works all day only to come home to demands from their kid for more, more, more. Oh, yes...that's our society - keep up with the clothes, the make-up, the cars, the "stuff"...all the external fixes. When the fixes no longer work, then what? These are the parents that BEG the school for help, BEG the counselors to help them be better parents, BEG the police to help when their kid steals their car and are told you just need to be a better parent!!! What I read here is that when a parent that knows their kid is worth whatever it takes - emotionally and financially, if they spend money to help them, they are again being bad parents??? If insurance pays for it, then it's okay? Oh yes, again...the little 3-30 day band-aids are just fine. Even better, if the STATE pays for it, then the quality creates lasting results and a big success rate? Not to mention being in a situation with felons and negative peer influences. Whooppee!! There you go - that's the answer - Or even better, keep them at home and keep on trying to change them while siblings see it, while the parents divorce over it, while people like YOU are sitting in judgment. Thank you for your concern in offering something other than hatred and victim stories. How dare you accuse thousands of parents of being abusive by giving their kid a new chance at life - NOT another chance to self-destruct.
Has even ONE of the supposed abuse cases against WWASP/Teen Help EVER been proven true? No, I didn't think so! Consider the sources - poor baby said they were starving or being mistreated or brainwashed - here come the parents to the rescue again! It must be true - they always told the truth before, why would they start lieing now? What a burden it must be to always be in a co-dependent relationship. As long as the kid knows the parents will be there to rescue them again and again, they will keep doing what they're doing. Someone has to be right. Right? Was this not the same kid that kicked or punched holes in the wall at home because they didn't get their way?? These same kids were given the opportunity at Dundee Ranch and did the SAME things - NOW someone must be held accountable, and it won't be the poor, innocent, kind and considerate kid. Will the parents EVER get over the guilt - my guess is they never stopped feeling guilty for not being able to take care of the problems themselves. These are the same parents that felt guilty for needing help!! Get over it!
Sensationalism sells - look at the newspapers in general - bad news or good news catches your eye?? The big bad program, oh my god, took away priviledges...or made them listen to audio tapes alone and write an essay...horrors!! The "untrained" staff, you say, restrained someone from hurting someone else...why don't they just let them beat the crap out of each other? That would be a better way, of course. Hog tied? for three days? I guess dad was there and saw it all? Why was this kid the ONLY one with this story? Give ME proof - and quit quoting biased newspaper articles or web pages that no longer exist (if they ever did.) If a kid was hog tied then they deserve a big settlement! For every one kid that wants to come home, not to his/her parents, but to their friends, and tell outlandish tales to get there, I'll bet there are hundreds more that will tear that story into confetti. Aimee - you attended Cross Creek Manor, did you graduate or convince your parents you were being abused and they brought you home?
What I read here sounds like VICTIM in the worst way. How sad to live your life as a victim. That's what I love about the world wide web - freedom of speech and anyone can say anything to be "right." It sounds narcissistic to me - plenty of you to validate your view...must make you feel worthwhile, huh?
Hey, why don't you ask a recruit in basic about their physical training? Some out of control kid doing the same thing would say it was abuse. Or better yet, ask the kid with ADD in public school who has been told how bad and stupid they are everyday until they believe it...and ask the parent who never did anything about it if they would make the same choice again or invest in their kid's future if they had to do it all over again. Maybe someone should sue the military or the public school teachers! I'm kidding, of course.
Wouldn't it be a better choice to give a child a positive internal experience in a positive environment when the parent(s) can no longer do it all by themselves? If my kid had a terminal illness would I treat him/her myself? No, I'd trust the experts to do what they do best. Not just for my kid, but for me too.
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Good God, these program parents aren't just stupid. They are positively toxic!!!
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well anon, why wont you say who you are? you dont want us to know? if a child is knownly put in abusive placeby their parents, that child needs another advocate!! im not just believing the papers!! my daughter saw kids get hit! and there is other kids (and staff member) that have verified her story regarding a child! if you think this is ok, you have problems not your child, i understand where your coming from (well sort of) sometimes parents are desperate, and think is nothing you can do, there is good answers out there. i do not think my child is a liar, i would not believe someone who makes a living off children in the programs, over my child! if you think it was just one child you have not done your research! and you are right about one thing i do feel guilty! also i feel i was taken advantage of! you must believe everything your family rep tells you! i know mine flat lied to me! also the "poor baby" you refer to aspunching holes in the wall, that wasnt my child she went looking for a phone, to call home, she didnt stick around, you said "why dont they just let them beat the crap out of each other?" well they do, thats one of the problems! letting upperlevels hit, restrain, and give out cats. these kids are in the program to, their there for a reason not for being upstanding citizens, and these same children have the right to be a "boss" i dont feel this is ok, have you ever asked you child when they were on lower levels about the food? and did they ever recieve juice? my daughter laughed at the meal menu, she drank juice 2 times, on the meal menu it says they get it almost every meal, (boy i bet that saves them alot of money)what about in the family picture of the girls at dundee, the one where there was a girl standing next to the lower level girls. she a upper level! youll see her a couple of picture down, why do you think she was standing with the lower levels? you said id let experts deal with this, thats a joke medical doctors have training, what training does the kays and lichfields have? i would like you to enlighten me! oh yeah besides their ties with wwasp!
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[ This Message was edited by: KarenZ on 2003-10-16 19:57 ]
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You Program Parents could save lots of money by setting up your own BM facility at home.
One parent could quit work or support the ex in doing so.
Set up an in-house prison system.
Remove radios, TV, newspapers, telephones -cut off all contact with the outside world.
Hire a tutor or buy educational software.
Require your kid to earn the right to look at you or out the window and raise their hand before speaking.
Create an isolation/OP/torture room- might even have a rack/stocks or make oxygen a privelege.
If they become unruly or threaten to report you for abuse, you can throw them in isolation for extended periods. Or hire a couple of goons to restrain him and show him who's boss.
Require them to do manual labor around the house and neighborhood and PT them everyday.
Limit calories to keep them physically weak and complacent- proper nutrition as a privilege, not a right.
Make them earn the right to personal hygiene and toileties, and luxuries such as toilet paper.
Take them to a remote area every day and require them to hunt, kill, and cook their own dinner.
If they become very defiant you could take them out in the heat of the day, wearing black sweats and force march them up and down a hill for hours on end. (Careful here. If you defend your child's collapse/death with "I thought he was "faking" the courts may not extend the same leineancy to a parent...they aren't professionals, only pros can get away with that defense.)
I'm sure there are other suggestions.
Yes, a parent could save themselves a lot of money. There is one small problem. This kind of treatment is considered child endangerment, abuse, neglect out here in the real world, as witnessed by the post about the LA parents.
And therein lies the rub. Why is it acceptable at a program? Why is it acceptable when a "professional" abuses a teen? Pure and simple- it is a double standard. And officals overlook this because government would rather the parents pay for private incarceration than burden the city/state.
I think another reason parents don't set up their own harsh in-house BM program is because in their heart of hearts, they know it is wrong to treat another person this way. Their conscience wouldn't allow it. Then why does it allow them to hire it done?
What? You say that parents don't know these things are happening? Isn't that fraud? The program didn't inform you of the BM/torture methods they would employ? When you take your child for a risky medical procedure or operation, aren't you informed and asked to consent to the recommended "treatment"? Why is psychological treatment any different? Further, would you allow a non credentialed person to perform the medical procedure? Many of these programs do not have credentialed staff. Even if they have credentials they are usually young, and trained in the facility's methods. They are trained to identify everything as manipulation and punish it. Or to identify collapses as "faking". They are so intent on enforcing the march, that they too often miss vital clues about the teens well being.
Did you ask what BM is? Did you ask what methods of punisment/discipline would be employed? Or did you assume the hefty price for the program was insurance that your child would be in safe hands?
I asked, legitimate questions and was labled "adversarial" which sparked a viscous campaign to prove this to the courts. The program aided my ex in doing so.
If a parent fails to educate themselves, asks hard questions, have an attorney review the contract, etc- then the parent is equally responsible for what happens to their offspring. The idea that the "professionals" know what's best is not necessarily true, and many times not the case at all. They can not be objective, this is their livlihood. There is a conflict of interest beyond your wildest imagination.
I can usually have compassion for one who is genuienely ignorant and makes stupid mistakes. That's not the case with the judicial system. Break the law and you will feel their wrath. Parents are expected to be more cautious, competent, and intellegent when looking out for the well-being of their child.
There may be programs that are less abusive than others, but they employ their own version of BM, which remains a controversial theory. They all isolate the teen from the world and rarely tell the truth about what is happening "inside" the compound.
Anonymous, you ask:
>>What is the percentage of parents that believe everything they read?
I don't know, but I would bet money there are vastly more parents who believe everything the program tells them.
>>Could it be the same parents that are always rescuing their kid and blaming someone else for their behavior?
I will ask you, isn't the program "rescuing" you? When will you be held accountable for wrecking your relationship with your child?
>>Are you saying that a parent has no rights...only their child who rules the family and creates chaos...that's okay here! It's okay to do whatever they please, when they please and their should be no consequences?
Ever read the poem about A Child Will Become What He Learns? A child who "creates chaos" is showing the degree that they did not receive what humans need to make constructive choices in their life. A defiant child is holding a mirror up to the parents and that image is painful to see, so the quick remedy is to incarcerate them. No more disgusting looks in the mirror, and you get to appear to be doing the "right" thing for your child.
>>These are parents that have done everything for their kid, only the kid keeps wanting more and more until they are almost broke from trying to please their kid. The single mom who works all day only to come home to demands from their kid for more, more, more. Oh, yes...that's our society - keep up with the clothes, the make-up, the cars, the "stuff"...all the external fixes. When the fixes no longer work, then what?
You are missing the obvious. Those "things" are pacifiers for what they really want...you present and active in their life, modeling respectful relationships. There are many other ways to "deal with the problem" than you are able to imagine. You will never convince a critic that you have done everything to "help your child" or that your choice to incarcerate him was made "to save his life". That kind of support is given at Struggling Teens message board. You won't find much of that here.
>>As long as the kid knows the parents will be there to rescue them again and again, they will keep doing what they're doing. Someone has to be right. Right?
And as long as there are programs to "rescue" parents, they will continue to punish the child for the negative relationship they as parents are responsible for fostering. They won't be motivated to look at their own shortcomings and will pay to have their child tortured into accepting the fact that their parents expect them to "behave" inspite of the lack of connection they feel in the relationship.
>>Will the parents EVER get over the guilt - my guess is they never stopped feeling guilty for not being able to take care of the problems themselves. These are the same parents that felt guilty for needing help!! Get over it!
You and they are the one's who need to "get over it". Parents ARE accountable for the obvious deterioration in their relationship with their child and all it's manifestations. There is no one else to put it off on. Get over it and get some help. When you had that child you made an agreement (similar to a marriage vow) to love and cherish him/her and look out for their well being until they reached legal age. Get your priorties straight. Learn what humans need to feel safe and connected in the world. That should have been done years before conception. You should feel guilt. Guilt motivates us to learn and grow, to do things differently.
>>The big bad program, oh my god, took away priviledges...or made them listen to audio tapes alone and write an essay...horrors!!
How would it feel to have the gov't step in and take away YOUR "privileges"? Uh, hey Mr/Mrs Moron, we have determined (based on the degree your child's acting out) that you have a compromised relationship with your child and are not meeting his/her real needs. One of you must forgo your career/volunteer work/etc and learn how to parent. You must complete this training and prove competency before resuming any activities outside your family. Now that's a solution I could whole heartedly support.
>>What I read here sounds like VICTIM in the worst way. How sad to live your life as a victim. That's what I love about the world wide web - freedom of speech and anyone can say anything to be "right." It sounds narcissistic to me - plenty of you to validate your view...must make you feel worthwhile, huh?
Did not the program rescue you, you poor VICTIM of "abuse from your child"? I have no empathy for an adult who can't figure out how to make a relationship with a minor work. I have stopped visiting the other sites where program supporters sympathize with each other because I am sick to death of hearing how they are VICTIMS of their children.
>>Hey, why don't you ask a recruit in basic about their physical training? Maybe someone should sue the military or the public school teachers! I'm kidding, of course.
You can't be saying that the treatment that consenting adults endure in basic training is good for teens. Sue military/schools. Good idea, they are both destructive in their own unique ways. The former intended to destroy a person to the point of being able to kill another human being. There are some screwed up people in the military. And many who killed and are still trying to recover.
>>Wouldn't it be a better choice to give a child a positive internal experience in a positive environment when the parent(s) can no longer do it all by themselves? If my kid had a terminal illness would I treat him/her myself? No, I'd trust the experts to do what they do best. Not just for my kid, but for me too.
Who are you kidding. Nothing in your post suggests that your/their child ever had a positive environment prior to program. If the kid had a terminal illness would you allow a non-credentialed person to treat/operate on him? And, as I said before, the "experts" are not always objective.
Yes, the child needs a positive internal experience, which is obvious that you nor the program can provide. Your living in an illusion if you think anything different. Face the truth. Your relationship deteriorated to the point that you hate your child and blame him/her for the discord in your family. You dispise him/her so much you are willing to have them abused. I sometimes imagine that you and other's like you actually get off on the thought that your child is being severely abused...punishment for holding up a mirror to your face and disrupting YOUR life.
I would fully support a program that treated a teen with due respect. I haven't seen one yet. They all isolate them from their families and the world and hold them accountable for everything. That is not a long-term solution. You might get "results", but I don't believe for a minute they represent a "positive internal experience".
And the debate goes on.
Deborah
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Thanks Deborah for defending the basic civil and human rights of children and making the case that there is no excuse for abuse. Check out this article about the BM tactics and techniques used by the parents of a California teen. Thank God these people lost their parental rights instead of being patted on the back for getting tough with their non-compliant children.
Two on trial for love that was too tough
Date: November 23 2002
Was it an effort by parents to discipline their wayward child or was it cruelty? Stuart Pfeifer writes from Newport Beach, California.
Grady and Deborah Machnick were distressed about their teenage son's behaviour. His chores went unfinished. His grades were slipping. He stole money from them and shoplifted at the local supermarket. So the parents took drastic steps.
Grady Machnick, a Los Angeles County sheriff's sergeant, and his wife, an elementary school principal, locked the boy out of the house until he finished his algebra homework. Some nights they forced him to sleep outside on a dog mat.
When the boy did not pick up droppings left by the family dogs his stepmother scooped up the litter from the backyard and put them in his backpack before he went to school.
Often he was excluded from the dinner table, forced to eat leftovers in the kitchen while the rest of the family dined on freshly cooked meals.
The Machnicks say they did this to discipline a wayward son before he got into even worse trouble. Prosecutors say their actions were not only misguided but criminal.
The parents went on trial this week in a child-endangerment case the likes of which prosecutors say they have never seen before. Most child abuse involves sudden, violent acts. This case focuses on what Orange County authorities describe as premeditated psychological cruelty.
Essentially, the Machnicks are accused of going overboard in "positive reinforcement" and other steps right out of a parenting self-help book. Implicitly, the case asks the justice system to define when parental tough love veers into a criminal act. The Machnicks are charged with misdemeanour child endangerment and felony conspiracy. If convicted of both offences they could each be sentenced to up to three years' jail. The couple, who have pleaded not guilty, do not dispute many of the allegations, though they deny ever physically harming the boy, now 16 and at high school.
"One of my biggest regrets is I was unable to find a form of behaviour modification that would work," Grady Machnick said in a statement released by his lawyer. The boy "has great potential but simply would not obey school or home rules".
In May 2001, the boy ran away. He arrived at his best friend's house after 1am, his hair soaking wet. He told his friend his father had awakened him by dousing him with "several gallons" of water to punish him for returning home late from school.
A week later, the friend's family informed police the Machnicks's son was living with them. When a detective arrived to interview Grady Machnick, the father said: "He didn't commit any crimes, did he?"
Later, when a social worker told him his son wanted to come home, Machnick said he would take him back only if he could continue with his disciplinary regimen. Authorities placed the boy in the custody of his best friend's family.
A social worker, Curtis Vaughn, concluded that "father and stepmother have totally failed in their parental duties to inform and instruct the child".
After charges were filed against the parents, the Sheriff's department placed Grady Machnick on unpaid leave. Deborah Machnick was relieved of her principal's duties and shifted to an administrative post where she has no contact with children.
The boy's name has been withheld because he is a minor.
Los Angeles Times
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I have learned the hard lesson that no amount of enlightenment, cajoling, threatening, pleading...absolutely nothing will change the mind of one who "needs" to know WWASP is OK. They've made this decision, and it stinks to high heaven, so they need a heavy dose of perfume to cover up the stench.
The object of our attention has been held prisoner out of the country for nearly 8 months now, and we can no longer communicate with her even by edited letters. I asked the US State Department field office to make an American Citizens Welfare Check on her (to let her know we were at least still out there and desperately caring about her welfare). The consular staff person (suspect for a lot of reasons, particularly for his very cozy relationship with the local WWASP director) refused, after phoning the custodial parent at home in the US and ***asking her permission for a check***!!! He suggested we simply wait it out until the parent ran out of money, and then work to re-establish our relationship with this child.
We are currently out of options, save for the closing of the facility by governments or lawsuits, etc. The burning in my gut now feeds on the post-WWASP scene...not the one where terrified graduates behave themselves like robots for the first 2 or 4 months after returning home. It is the time of older adolescence when the child finally gets a chance to tip-toe into independence, and goes hog-wild against everything the smug, "I saved your life" parent says. It is the time 10 years down the road, when the child-turned-woman has her own family, and never or seldom visits Grandma. It is the times at Christmas and 4th of July when the entire extended family traditionally gathers, and the "I saved your life" parent sits alone at home with her new spouse...or all alone because all the people known "from before"...family, friends, even neighbors, keep her far distant. It is the time during the middle of the night when the parent wonders if she really did the right thing, and there is no one close to comfort her and assure her because they all hate her for her abuse of her teen. It is a LIFE decision you made, Anonymous Parent, and it will haunt you forever.
Hate corrodes the vessel that carries it...but it can make do in a pinch. I grieve, I worry, I fear...but right now, I hate.
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Like I said, biased newspaper articles are rampant in the Dundee Ranch reporting. Tim Weiner, who is with the NY Times is extremely biased in his past articles regarding Dundee Ranch.
http://www.azcentral.com/community/nw/c ... n0625.html (http://www.azcentral.com/community/nw/columns/articles/0625nelson0625.html)
Newsroom Spin Causes Credibility to Nose-Dive
Jun. 25, 2003 12:00 AM
The echoes of the New York Times scandal that resulted in the resignations of two top editors will reverberate in newsrooms for a long time.
Since the Times' revelation that reporter Jason Blair invented and stole stories and faked story datelines, other newspaper and TV executives are taking a harder look at their hiring and management policies.
But people's confidence in news organizations of all kinds has already taken a hit. If you can't believe the New York Times, widely perceived as the most credible newspaper in the country, whom can you believe? Public confidence in the media has plunged lately - a USA Today/CNN poll last month found that only 36 percent of the people believe news organizations get the facts straight.
How can a responsible citizen find out what's really going on? By asking three questions: What is the media source? Who or what are the quoted sources? Is the information factual, or is it colored by the reporter's opinion?
All news organizations filter news through their own particular political bias. The New York Times, the Los Angeles Times and the Washington Post are perceived as liberal.
The Wall Street Journal and Fox News are thought of as conservative. The spin can be obvious in the way a story or its headline is written. Or it can be more subtle in the way it is either emphasized or played down by its placement in the newspaper or broadcast. If you don't like the spin put on information by one newspaper, TV or radio show, consult a different one.
Crucial to evaluating information is the quoted source or sources. Did the reporter witness the event personally, or is the reporter merely a "talking head" telling you what somebody else told him?
The TV reporter who claims Baghdad is burning while you see the fires in the distance is pretty reliable. The news anchor who talks about it later is not quite so convincing.
Also, determine if the source is a disinterested party or has a vested interest in the reported project. Drug studies sponsored by companies who manufacture the drugs, or weight loss studies sponsored by weight loss pill manufacturers are highly suspect. Quotes by the American Medical Association or the American Heart Association are more credible.
Additionally, is the source an authority on the subject, or just someone lower on the executive food chain who doesn't really know enough to comment? Reporters who can't immediately reach a primary source sometimes quote a less reliable one when they're on deadline.
Does the reporter quote anonymous sources? This should raise a red flag with anyone who wants to get credible information. Most newspapers don't even require the reporter to identify the anonymous source to an editor. And some papers will go with a story when only one or two anonymous sources agree.
If a newspaper story relies almost completely on anonymous sources, or a TV newscaster repeatedly uses the phrases "reportedly," or "sources say," beware.
Most important of all in evaluating the credibility of information is to closely analyze the way the story is written. Is the reporter giving you only the facts, or is he coloring them with his own particular bias?
If the story begins: "In an effort to shore up his declining popularity poll figures, President Bush spoke recently at . . . ," you are getting the reporter's opinion.
Also, if only one side of an issue is presented, or one side is presented more sympathetically than the other, you are getting reporter (or editor) opinion.
The line between facts and opinion in straight news stories is becoming more blurred every day. Some stories that I believe reflect reporter bias would have been clearly labeled "analysis" when I was in the business more than a decade ago. Now they masquerade as straight news.
Any story that draws conclusions about the significance of the information is suspect. Absorb the facts, and then draw your own conclusions.
It might not be a bad idea for news consumers to approach information with the same skepticism that reporters are trained to apply when they gather it. Many reporters cut their journalistic teeth on this admonition from editors: "If your mother says she loves you, check it out."
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That is certainly a fair question. Well there are a lot of people on this board who were in straight, SAFE, Elan or Hyde for a long time and have been out for long enough to talk about it. At least a few people from Straight said that it took as long as 20 years before they remembered what really happened.
Well there is certainly gonna be a great demand for low rate nursing homes for the parents of these kids.
For those parents that pulled their kids out and got them help, there is at least the possibility of forgiveness. For those parents who kept their kids locked up and then banished them when they said the program abused them, there will be nothing but an empty house.
My friend who spent 2 months at Alldredge is living in Colorado and probably never planning on seeing his parents again.
"I never spank my kids. I find that waving the gun around does the same thing."-Dennis Leary.
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WWASP PARENTS = DENIAL
For your kids sake, WAKE UP.
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I'd pay attention a graduate of any WWASP school. A Real graduate, not just someone who posts here pretending to be a graduate. I personally KNOW many graduates - most have been home for several years and all are alive, healthy and making great choices in their lives. Not for their parents, but because they actually WANT to. Can't say that for many adults I know! You and others are speaking from very little or no "real" experience. I can say my kid was never starved. He gained weight in the first months - how do you do that if you're not eating? For anyone that lost weight, maybe they needed to - eating disorders/food addictions. Hone in on the food thing, maybe that's all you've got.
Does any parent want to send their kid away? Maybe some, but not most. It's the only way I could get my child back and the only way, in his words, that he found he could love himself, graduate high school and stay clean. I know that after all this time of being home he would have told me of abuse, starvation, and all the other horrors I'm reading here? I'm not stupid or blind as you and others say. If he told me today he had been abused I would believe him. I would NOT call him a liar and throw him out of the house.
Spots: What is your real experience of the schools? Ever met graduates or parents of grads? Is it because the parents see the toxicity of your relationship with your grandchild and you feel angry and willing to make up stories that other's needing help will believe? What I see is you pushing yourself further and further away from any future relationship with your grandchild by the hatred I'm perceiving for her parents.
Each person has a right to their opinions, whether I agree or not. Is your opinion fact-based or reading posts here and because you SO want to believe the worst that it has become your reality?
I do have real life experiences. I have yet to experience allegations of abuse that have been proven to be true in a WWASP school. There are no guarantees of 100% safety ANYWHERE. Are WWASP schools for everyone? Nope - Only for those who are committed to positive and lasting change.
Morseglass: Your kid was there a couple of months? Yes, I definitely believe what they say. LOL! You believe the newspapers, right?
Denial? Kool-Aid? Give me a REAL and substantiated case of abuse and I'll listen, yes, I will listen. I took off the rose-colored glasses a long time ago. Who's really in denial here?
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[ This Message was edited by: KarenZ on 2003-10-16 20:02 ]
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Its called growing up. What teen isn't "bad" in their adolescent stage. This is a natural part of childhood. So WWASP is just taking credit for the natural cycle of the human being. What is unnatural though is their programs? Spending months in an isolation box, going through brainwashing seminars, living in a prison like setting at age 12-17. The only thing WWASP is doing is screwing up our future generation for millions a year.
The one who didn't seem to grow up is Narvin Lichfield, hopefully he gets a stiff prison sentence to help him mature.
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"
On 2003-06-25 13:37:00, Anonymous wrote:
Spots: What is your real experience of the schools?"
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Other than a HUGE amount of interviews, emails, newspapers articles, etc.?..I received 11 weekly letters (of 28 weeks in WWASP with ABSOLUTELY GUARANTEED letters being written. The child knew the majority of her emails were not reaching me, and it "pisses me off", she wrote. An articulate and funny writer with an unusual adult perspective on the world (the quasi-Man in the Family during her mother's long single parenthood, even worried about family finances when she was 5), she wrote long letters, full of anecdotes and descriptions. She appears unusually resistant and independent, still a Level II after nearly 8 months.
"Ever met graduates or parents of grads?"
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Yes, probably 6 grads (lots more pull-outs!) Even the self-proclaimed successful kids seem subdued and sad or non-analytical parrots, speaking WWASP-ese. Most say they have been out for XXX months (like 14), seldom using the vague time frames we usually use (year and a half). When I asked Tim Weiner about the graduates he interviewed, he responded that, yes, several seemed satisfied, but that an usually high number looked forward to a career in the military (that didn't make it into the newspaper article, did it). Noble career, but few entertain visions of being high-tech entrepeneurs or innovative retailers or manufacturers. These kids don't seem to want to take chances.
"Is it because the parents see the toxicity of your relationship with your grandchild and you feel angry and willing to make up stories that other's needing help will believe?"
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Uh, excuse me? #1, we love her greatly, and the feeling is mutual. What in God's name made you think our relationship with this kid is toxic? #2, I have not "made up" any story, ever, the fact being that I am as careful as a reporter fearing a libel suit. #3, we had this child with us for a lot of last summer, and we had her and her sister for 2 weeks just days before she was sent away. This kid was just 14 and needed better parenting, not punishment by strange self-proclaimed "fixers". If I told you I worked for HP (which I did, long ago, but in Sales) and that I would promise to fix your laptop with a warranty for additional work if I screwed up, would you send it to me just because you can't find a competent tech repair person in your town? Probably not. How about if I sent you the names of all my clients (uh, family and neighbors) with their 93% satisfaction rate (both of the laptops I got working because the problem was the owners forgot the Caps Lock was on)? Then would you send it to me? Probably not. How about if I charged you $100 an hour? Must be OK, to be able to charge so much?
"What I see is you pushing yourself further and further away from any future relationship with your grandchild by the hatred I'm perceiving for her parents."
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'Ya know, I worry about that sometimes, about how long it will take her to "revert" back to the terrific loving smart sassy young lady she was, and how we will deal with it if she initially hates us for trying to thwart the "lifesaving" program that took her out of a normal world. It will be harder the longer she remains in the program, but I am certain her inate goodness will surface. The risk is us losing her for some time (big risk, as we are older than most parents here) weighed against the gain of giving her the whole life with a normal maturation process she should experience, just like any other kid.
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"Each person has a right to their opinions, whether I agree or not. Is your opinion fact-based or reading posts here and because you SO want to believe the worst that it has become your reality?"
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My opinion is fact-based because I believe what was written to me. A lot of it is simply anecdotal; she doesn't even realize some of the techniques being used on her and therefore doesn't complain...only tells the story. And why, may I ask, would you think I "SO want to believe the worst that it has become your reality?" I have absolutely nothing to gain by being negative about WWASP...except to accelerate it's inevitable downfall. I'm not paying for it, and I don't have any guilt about using it. I just want to see behavior modification become intensely scrutinized by authority/government/society...and I want this particular onnerous example to disappear before more American children suffer.
I would like to see abuse addressed more on the psychological level; making things that Child Protective Services would pounce on in the suburbs become equally illegal in a BM setting. However, physical abuse is easier to spot and prove...so let's work on that. There seems to be a large body of evidence, just so fantastic that the public finds it unbelievable.
Really, we're only talking here about 2500 or so families, out of the entire planet, who think this is a Good Thing. Should I care more about these children than I do about 2500 people in Bangledesh who drown when a ferry capsizes? Well, besides being personally affected, this is a thing *I* can do something about. I will not walk away or be intimidated by name-callers.
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Reporters' personal bias exists. Use your own judgement and common sense. Analyze the piece and decide (that is, if you are not a product of the WWASP Believe Only What I Say school.
BTW, this link appeared to be a news piece, as posted to the forum. In reality, it is a submission from a free-lance writer to the local Scottsdale, AZ newspaper. It is basically a Letter to the Editor. The accompanying photo and bio would "suggest" a retiree in a conservative community, giving a personal opinion...with absolutely no need for presenting a balanced story...sort of the quintessential single-mindedness the forum poster objects to.
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ANON, YOU MIGHT THINK YOUR CHILD IS A LIAR, I KNOW MINE IS NOT WHEN IT COMES TO THE WELL BEING OF ANOTHER PERSON, AND AS I SAID BEFORE, OTHER KIDS SAID THE EXACT STORIES ABOUT THE SAME CHILDREN AS MY CHILD, SINCE THEY CANT TALK HOW DO THEY COME UP WITH THE SAME STORIES????, ALSO YES I BELEIVED THE NEWSPAPER, MY DAUGHTER AND I BOTH SPOKE TO THEM, THEY SAID IT JUST LIKE IT WAS TOLD, EXCEPT THEY LEFT TO MUCH OUT!
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Spots wrote: My opinion is fact-based because I believe what was written to me.
You said exactly what I've been saying. If it's written by a defiant teen, it must be true. Why were your letter writing priviledges stopped?
Again, is ANYTHING is written or said by a defiant teen, really credible?
Don't you know that when the kids first get there, and usually some months that follow, the letters contain the same things. I know this is just heresay, but my son said they would talk to each other about what they could write that would bring them home. ABUSE was the number one way - starving was second.
Do you know why some kids say they are starving and believe it. THEY really think they ARE! They didn't eat healthy before they went and when they start to clean out their minds and bodies with exercise, fresh air and NO DRUGS or junk food, they want to eat nonstop! Rice and beans? Funny - don't know where those kids went to school, but it wasn't a WWASP school!
You met grads that seemed robotic? ALL the ones I know have a passion for life and wonderful senses of humor. They're still teenagers...and most don't even KNOW what career they want. A few do, and all are just normal teenagers now and they will find out just what their career future holds in college or in the process of growing in life. I commend anyone that serves in the military. I only know one grad that went to the military, most are going to school. You make it sound like they're possessed or have no minds of their own. On the contrary, dear posters.
After what Tim Weiner wrote, I believe you believe what he says. That's okay, it's just not my belief. Tim should really get his feet wet and go to a seminar or two. If it's good enough for Dr. Phil to do a whole series of shows about similar seminars on Oprah a year ago, then anyone that watched Oprah could see it wasn't brainwashing, robotic, take our souls away voodoo.
I'm not here to change your minds - just to voice my opinions based on fact, not fiction.
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On 2003-06-25 16:14:00, MORSEGLASS wrote:
"ANON, YOU MIGHT THINK YOUR CHILD IS A LIAR, I KNOW MINE IS NOT WHEN IT COMES TO THE WELL BEING OF ANOTHER PERSON, AND AS I SAID BEFORE, OTHER KIDS SAID THE EXACT STORIES ABOUT THE SAME CHILDREN AS MY CHILD, SINCE THEY CANT TALK HOW DO THEY COME UP WITH THE SAME STORIES????, ALSO YES I BELEIVED THE NEWSPAPER, MY DAUGHTER AND I BOTH SPOKE TO THEM, THEY SAID IT JUST LIKE IT WAS TOLD, EXCEPT THEY LEFT TO MUCH OUT! "
What do you mean they can't talk. They talk - and they talk a lot. Of course you believed the newspapers. You talked with them. They only left out the truth, that's just a little thing. They printed your daughter's truth, which isn't believable to me, coming from a defiant teen that was admitted to Dundee Ranch for what?? You love her, you want to believe her, that's not bad or unusual. A lot of parents make excuses for their child, I used to be one of them.
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Well...after 3 drafts, I have been advised to drop it, because I'm arguing with an idiot (who basically hates her child).
Go to a seminar and expound; it will make you feel better. Find your own forum, and keep paying the money.
BTW, Anon, who are you? and is your child still in WWASP (duh, of course).
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Anon,
If you want to beleive "uncle Buck" the used car salesman over your own child, what can any of us say or do to make you change your mind? Nothing. If your child is out and doing great, why are you hanging around on this message board? Could it be that you have a vested interest in WWASP? Why not move on, live happy, and let the rest of us worry about those who need our help.
You said, "Rice and beans? Funny - don't know where those kids went to school, but it wasn't a WWASP school!" Dundee has on the bottom of the monthly menu that can be found on their web site "kids on worksheets or in OP eat beans and rice." So if a child is there, in OP and/or on worksheets they are eating only beans and rice. Shows what most WWASP parents like you Anon really know about the program in which you are so proud of...NOT MUCH.
I believe in my children. I always will. I will never give up on them. I will never stop being there for them. I did not bring them into this world just to turn them over to "uncle Buck" just because the going got a little tough.
I feel sorry for your child.
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ANON, NO LOWER LEVELS CAN NOT SPEAK TO OTHERS YOU ARE WRONG, THEY CANT EVEN LOOK AT OTHERS, SO YES THEY CAN NOT TALK!!!!!!!!!!
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BTW- I am the parent of a grad of WWASP. Two years now. Sorry about the rice and beans thing - if it was in the contract, then the parents knew about it - would be better than the chips and soda my son ate before he left (and no I couldn't FORCE him to eat healthy!) I came upon this site several weeks ago when a friend who was admitting her child made me aware of it. She has since admitted her child to Cross Creek. She was intelligent enough to speak to real humans, and not believe the media and the WWW!
Carey - what IS your story - you didn't answer.
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OHH YEAH, MY DAUGHTER WAS SENT THERE BECAUSE IT WAS EDUCATIONAL. SHE WAS CUTTING SCHOOL!!!! THEY SAID MOST STUDENTS COME OUT 2 YEARS TO 1 US YEAR!! WELL I WOULD LIKE TO SEE THAT SURVEY, MOST KIDS I KNOW WERE LUCKY TO GET THEIR CREDITS FROM BEFORE THEY WENT TO WWASP!
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P.S. When did I say that I believed Uncle Buck? I don't even know the man, so again, I would be believing news article accounts - that's not me, sorry.
MORESEGLASS - the rules might say they can't talk about ways to get their parents to bring them home, but they do, believe me, they find a way, they're very smart kids, as you know.
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HOW WOULD YOU KNOW? YOU LIAR OF A CHILD TOLD YOU? AND NO THEY CANT NOT SPEAK TO OTHER LOWER LEVELS, UNLESS THEY WANT A CAT!!!! AND I THINK ALL STUDENTS OR GRADS WILL TELL YOU THEY DIDNT WANT TO GO TO O.P!!!
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DIDNT YOU SEE THE EDUCATIONAL PITCH??? THOUGHT SOO
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Spots,
I suggest that you continue writing and sending letters to your grandaughter regularly. Also keep a copy of each to give her when she gets home. It will mean a lot to her that she wasn't forgotten and that you never gave up on communicating with her. In every letter remind her that she still has a family to come home to. She may need to know that to help her make a decision about leaving at 18. You never know, as incompetent as these people are, they may accidently give her a couple of your letters.
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Morseglasss, I was also told that my child would catch up and possibly graduate h.s. early. What a joke, in 18 months he got 4.5 credits. Several of those months he was only allowed to take two classes, Science and Algebra, for 6 hours and day, 6 days a week.
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Didnt we ask you who you are? a number of times? :grin:
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I know what you mean, well their educational bit, was a joke, i talked to ken kay, He told me that he never promised an education!! well that is funny i received an educational loan :lol:
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"Uncle Buck" is Litchfield. That is the name he has given himself. If you believe in WWASP, you believe in Litchfield.
What is my story. I had twin boys at Dundee. They were placed there by their father. I went to Dundee and removed them from the program because of the fact that they were not willing to provide me with information on their employees. I wanted to have criminal background checks, amongst other things done, in order to be sure my boys were safe. I knew they were operating under the regulations of any governmental agencies and I felt there was a high risk of abuse of power in a situation such as the one at Dundee. I did not want to just rely on the "blind faith" that Dundee wanted me to rely on.
Also, I had talked with the mother of a child who was raped and assaulted at Dundee. This child was not taken immediately to the hospital and as a result she almost died. This mother felt like what happened to her daughter was an isolated incident. Who wants to sit back and hope she is correct about that. I didn't. Like I already said, I think the risk in a place like Dundee is far to great. I do not beleive in the idealolgy that you put a child's life at risk to save their life. It just doesn't make sense.
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Anon wrote:
>>You and others are speaking from very little or no "real" experience.
That is such an arrogant thing to say. Given the short time you've been here, how could you possibly "know" that. Most of the people who have responded to you have had direct experience with WWASP or similar programs.
>>I know that after all this time of being home he would have told me of abuse, starvation, and all the other horrors I'm reading here?
Not necessarily. My ex incarcerated our son. He tells his dad nothing about what happened because he knows that dad is not interested or receptive. He tells me. Our older son tells him nothing either. His dad refuses to read the psych evaluation that was required for our lawsuit. It depends on the relationship you have with your child. They both know his limitations and try to have the best relationship possible given those limitations.
Kids don't talk to people that don't trust and certainly not to those who have the power to send them away again if they say the "wrong" thing. You might hear all about it when your son reaches adulthood and feels some autonomy, when he's free from your power over him. He may be one of those who were scared ****less by the program, and remains quiet to avoid being sent back for a follow up visit.
>>I'm not stupid or blind as you and others say. If he told me today he had been abused I would believe him. I would NOT call him a liar and throw him out of the house.
You contradict yourself. On the one hand you criticize parents who are listening to their children who say they were abused. You bash the "lying, defiant teens", stating that you can't believe anything they say. My son wasn't a liar before he went. He learned quickly how to lie and how to assess what the adults around him NEEDED to hear, in order to avoid abuse. The first few months were hell for him. He couldn't figure it out. In group the "counselor" asked what was up. He expressed concerned about what his older brother was going through at the time. She called him a liar and put him on restriction (no social time, work detail, limit calories) until he was willing to "tell the truth". So...he made up a lie... which she accepted as the truth. My son is pretty much on the ball. I can only imagine how this must confuse and ****up the weaker minded kids. That doesn't resemble any form of therapy I am aware of. That is training in "how to think the way I think".
>>Each person has a right to their opinions, whether I agree or not.
Gee, that's very generous of you. Who do you think you are anyway? Of course everyone has a right to their opinions.
>>There are no guarantees of 100% safety ANYWHERE.
That's right. You could walk outside tomorrow and be run down by a truck. But, no form of "therapy" should include the risk of death or complete and total isolation from family members and the world. Felons have more contact with loved ones than program participants, more rights, as I understand. I find your comments to a grieving grandmother extemely insulting and insensative. I imagine because she is not speaking your, "punish the teen and let the parent off the hook" language.
>>Are WWASP schools for everyone? Nope - Only for those who are committed to positive and lasting change.
How long has your son been home? Isn't it a little early to be making that statement? I've read lots of posts at StrugglingTeens in which parents are moaning because their child is home and back to the same ol, same ol. All that money for nothing. How about the ex WWASPer on death row (was it?) And the one recently in the news for helping his girlfried stage her own abduction. Now that's positive and lasting for ya. Before you can make that statement, you should interview every teen who ever attended WWASP and see where they are today. No independent study has been conducted. All anyone has to go on is the word of the program.
>>Denial? Kool-Aid? Give me a REAL and substantiated case of abuse and I'll listen, yes, I will listen. I took off the rose-colored glasses a long time ago. Who's really in denial here?
I don't think you will listen. Because any report of abuse will come from one of those "lying, defiant teens" that you so dispise. Or from one of those "toxic parents or grandparents". Or from one of those "disgruntled ex-employees". Or from one of those "uncredible journalist". You will never listen. Your mind is blocked. You need to feel good about your choice. I imagine you would like it if everyone supported the decision you made for your son, and the dispicable program you chose for him. The fact that there are those who do have "their own opinion" which is different than your own, you feel you must viscously defend yourself. Even two years after your son is home. If you are happy with your choice, then go be happy about it. Why do you continue to defend it? Aren't there some message boards where parents seek the kind of information and support you have to give? And about the way you found this board? Did you get a kick back for referring your friend? Guess it was kind of a blow when she stumbled across some different "opinions" than your own. Do you not trust her, or others to make their own decisions after reviewing all the available information and "opinions". I think you are a control freak.
My older son acquired PTSD after a 6 mo program. When he got home he moved into substance abuse. When he hit bottom- 2 DWIs and no job, he agreed to go to a rehab. Anticipating this, I had done extensive research and found a program to be the best available and certainly better than anything the courts would order. He was there 9 months for the cost of a traditional 30 day rehab. I really support this program, but I don't go around searching out those with different "opinions" about it. Come to think of it, there are no negative opinions, because they treat participants with respect. You can "help" people without abusing them. What a concept...one I'm sure you wouldn't understand.
Deborah
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What's this reference to Kool Aid about? Is that what the kids drink or some kind of analogy to Jones Town?
:wave:
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On 2003-06-26 07:12:00, Anonymous wrote:
>>I'm not stupid or blind as you and others say. If he told me today he had been abused I would believe him. I would NOT call him a liar and throw him out of the house.
I split Straight from 5th (highest) phase, pretraining for staff.
Let me tell you a few things about how it went between me and my parents over the course of the following months.
My mother brought a couple of other program parents and tried to kidnap me from my bed in my brother's home. That failed because I called the police and, in Georgia, 17 is the default age of emancipation for most purposes. I didn't know that when I made the call. I just figured I could slug the cop and force an arrest if I had to and that would be far better than getting dragged back to group as a splitee.
About a week or two later, my dad came to visit. While he was there, I went out to time my walk to the bus stop to make sure I'd be on time for the job I was starting the next day. He took the oportunity to call the cops and lie to them to try and get me arrested (said I was in a store with no money and prone to shoplifting; none of which was true).
Another couple of weeks passed without incident, then a couple of Dekalb County detectives came to the door one evening with an arrest warrant. It seems I was being extradited by the State of Florida for the 'crime' of being a runaway. After a few weeks in juvenile detention in Ga, followed by a few more weeks in a group home in Fl, I went to court and convinced the judge to allow me to return to Ga for the holidays.
While all this is going on, the papers are reporting almost daily on all kinds of abusive incidents that happened in the Program all the time. Many of the witnesses who were giving statements to the DA and interviews to the papers were personal friends of my parents from the Program. They knew each and every one of them.
So, finally, I turn 18 and decide to give it one more try living at home since my parents can no longer force me into the program. I told them quite a bit about all the messed up things that happened in there in the couple of weeks between my arrival back home and the day they told me to either sign myself into another program or leave.
Some months later, back in Pompano where Dad and I had both gone seperately after my ultimatum and his being fed up with my mom, Dad and I had a talk about the program. To my utter amazement, he asked "Why didn't you ever tell me any of this before, when it was going on." Rather than point out the dozens of times and ways I'd tried to tell him, I just said "You wouldn't have believed me, you would have turned me in." He knew that was true and never brought it up ever again. We both lived hapily ever after. I did't need the apology, but it sure was nice to hear!
The right to do something does not mean that doing it is right.
--William Safire
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On 2003-06-26 11:05:00, Anonymous wrote:
"What's this reference to Kool Aid about? Is that what the kids drink or some kind of analogy to Jones Town?
:wave: "
It's Jones Town. The internet interprets censorship as damage and routes around it.
--John Gilmour
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No contradiction - If my son tells me NOW, after being home for over two years that he had been abused I would believe him. He trusts me, I trust him. We don't always agree, but that's life. He told me he was being abused and starving when he first arrived and I didn't believe him, though I did go and check it out in person. I had to BE clear on this as a responsible parent. I watched him while he ate barbeque ribs, salad, green beans and rice. Good food and plenty of it. No starvation there. I came unannounced and was welcomed. No secrecy there. I saw what you say is the OP room, though they call it something different at his school. Door was open, the kid in there smiled at me - no biggie - no different than being sent to your room for a time out except the smile. As for his allegations of abuse, didn't happen - no point in telling you what I did to confirm this..it was not happening.
I am not familiar with other schools, Straight, CEDU, Elan, etc., so I have no experience of them. I am telling my truth, my first hand knowledge, nothing more.
Carey - you made it sound like a "child/student" was molested at Dundee - that's not what happened, and you know it. What happened is why Amberly Knight is no longer the Director in my opinion. I don't believe the newspaper quotes on what Ken Kay said either ---her wanting to find a boyfriend, etc. I'd also be interested to hear how your husband admitted your boys without your knowledge. Wouldn't BEING with your family and growing and having fun together be more important than getting revenge against your ex-husband?
This board does it's job. If I were a parent looking for help I wouldn't send my kid to WWASP after reading the hatred here- too bad, it's the best in helping the whole family from my extensive experience. Nothing is perfect, but it was perfect for us. But of course, no parent should ever send their kid away, whether it be a week long girl scout camp against their will, private school or a specialty boarding school for troubled teens in your opinions. My mom sent me to a girl scout camp - kicking and screaming - when I didn't want to go, and I ended up having a wonderful experience, despite the mosquitos, bugs and snakes (and the rice and beans!) I know, that's different...
Antigen - I am so sorry your experience at Straight was the way it was. I guess I would have begun a sounding board too. You have a vision and a passion for what you are doing. So many people don't. I don't agree with it, but that's not my place.
P.S. - ALL my son's credits transferred.He graduated high school recently and has enrolled in a midwestern university to be an electrical engineer this fall. This would not have happened without my intervention and his commitment to himself as he had already stopped going to high school. A lot of the kids won't do their school work in the beginning - but that's not the main reason they're there anyway. If Morseglass admitted his kid for academics only, I would question why?? Blame is such a useless waste of energy. Sounds like there was more than academic problems involved here.
I've enjoyed the interaction here - whatever will be will be - with or without me.
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First of all, you need to give us your name. Let us check out how involved you are with WWASP. Your
creditabilty is lost when you are not willing to make available your identity. I do not hide behind the "anon".
"Carey - you made it sound like a "child/student" was molested at Dundee - that's not what happened, and you know it."
Anon, I'll tell you what. When I get home this evening I will cut and paste the email from the mother on this site so that you can read it yourself. I have saved the email for court. She will have to admit it happened or else come up with some great explanation as to why she said it did when it didn't. I will give you the information you need so that you can call her and talk to her yourself. Of course she works for WWASP and has forgiven them for almost letting her daughter die. She is like you, blinded by stupidity. Also, the victim, her daughter, will probably have to be supeoned into court to tell it under oath, since her own mother and WWASP won't admit to it and let her name stay anonoymous.
"What happened is why Amberly Knight is no longer the Director in my opinion."
What story have you been told about Amberly?
"I don't believe the newspaper quotes on what Ken Kay said either ---her wanting to find a boyfriend, etc."
Are you saying you don't beleive the newspaper quoted him correctly, or are you saying that you don't believe what Ken Kay said?
"I'd also be interested to hear how your husband admitted your boys without your knowledge."
My husband lived in Brazil. The boys were living with him. He sent them from there to Costa Rica. They would call me often, sometimes twice a week, from Brazil. All of a sudden, I stopped getting their phone calls. I started asking questions and eventually my ex told me via my daughter where they were. Ask Mr. Kay to provide the enrollment agreement in which I did not sign. He cant provide one in which I did sign because there is not one. I did not know about them being place at Dundee until after the fact. I have saved all of the emails that I sent to the school once I found out where they were to tell them I was not in agreement with their placement there.
"Wouldn't BEING with your family and growing and having fun together be more important than getting
revenge against your ex-husband?"
First of all, how is this revenge against my ex husband? My fighting against the abuse that occured at Dundee is not against my ex husband, it is against Dundee. Second, are you watching me? How do you know what I am or what I am not doing? I am with my family. We are together. My other two children and myself are helping the boys come to terms with the terrible experience they had while at Dundee.
[ This Message was edited by: Carey on 2003-06-26 14:13 ]
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Barbecue ribs? Yeah I believe that about as much as I believe that Yaweh and President Bush have a close personal relationship.
The food deprivation aspect of WWASP and the lack of quality and sanitary conditions at WWASP facilities is probably the most documented and irrefutable aspect of WWASP's abuse. Kids coming home 30-50 pounds underweight with vitamin deficiencies, scurvy, jaundice, and acute malnutrition. That is hardly a subjective opinion or a manipulative lie by disobediant children, it is a scientific fact documented by physicians who have treated former inmates of wwasp facilities.
Go ahead and send you kid to a used car salesman, and then expect him to be honest about his experience. Why in the world would he tell you what you don't want to hear when he could very easily be sent back or cut off financially.
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Anon - you did not see the OP room. In OP, or whatever it is called, the student keeps their face to the floor or the wall. They are not allowed to look around, or smile.
If this kid did, soon as you were safely gone, he paid for it.
Maybe he was still green, and didn't realize what price he would pay. Or maybe he was one of the rare kids who took all the hell they could dish out and still laughed at them.
And about the BarBQ - no way Jack. If it was BarBQ, I bet it wasn't any cut of meat you'd eat. When you come on here telling these stories you make yourself sound like a fool or a liar. People here know better. I've never spoken with any student that didn't describe either tasteless gruel, or disgusting swill, or beans and rice, as the predominant meal served. Thin cheeze sandwhiches get mentioned now and then. As dose Mold, and bugs, and skin and bone shards.
Maybe knowing you were there, they fed the kids their own food for that one meal. They could always get pizza for themselves. Just trying to think of a way to believe you aren?t' lying threw your teeth - but actually, I think thats more likely.
And I gather you bought the load of crap they fed you about Amberly. Look, just use your common sence - Do you really think Amberly had the ability to hire and keep on staff anyone the OWNER wanted gone??
Those idiots have been slandering Amberly since she first resigned; and all to cover their own asses. Whats remarkable about it, is the way all the Program parents just accept their goofy and transparent lies as true - just because they said so - and obviously never actually THINK about it! It reminds me of star wars; Let me see that bag - You don't want to look in that bag - No - I don't want to look in that bag.
Again, use your common sense. Look at motive. Look at gain. What could Amberly gain from lying about the situation? Not a dam thing. She really stuck her neck out, put herself at personal and financial risk; all to try and help the lied to and manipulated parents. Her actions have been brave and completely selfless. Now what about the good ole boys back at Dundee? Do they have motive to lie? Yes, they do. Lots of motive. If they want to continue business as usual, they have no choice but to lie, lie, lie. Its simply what they do.
And anyone who wants to defend them, has to do the same.
About the molestation argument you and Carey are having - there is some confussion, but it did happen. It wasn't a student tho - it was a young staff member; who was assulted and raped by another young staff member - who Narvin hired because they work so cheep.
And you thinking Amberly was in any way at fault here is a result of your falling for the slander.
I know. I was aquainted with this situation when it happened - all the request for prayer - the Mom posting how greatful she was for Amberly's help and concern. Amberly had given notice and left for the weekend just before this happened - she returned for no other reason than to be of help to the mom and daughter threw out the ordeal.
It was just conveinent for the boys back at the ranch, that she had given notice and resigned - as it gave them a scapgoat.
This isn't the first time in history, a good and brave soul suffered threw liabelous slander from selfish, greedy bastards. Matter of fact - it happens every day - and its what happen to Amberly.
You only know what a pack of lying, selfabsorbed crude and brutal 'business men' have told you.
You might do well to consider the sorce.
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[ This Message was edited by: KarenZ on 2003-10-16 20:12 ]
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school was the main reason, yes we had other problems, no drugs or problems with the law, just fighting, argueing, she wanted to do things and expected me just to let her. it was when she was cutting school i had to do something, i still dont believe, you went there and he was eating ribs,salad, HEY DID HE GET ICE CREAM TOO???? :lol:
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heres an intresting fact, most of the girls in dundee did not have their menstrual cycle, only a few, (im sure upper levels) other mothers have ask me also about this, could it be malnutrition??? :???:
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Malnutrition? Highly possible. But it could be stress. That is the one thing my son wrote to me over and over and I didn't get it. He was constantly telling me how stressed he was. It would be stressful to think that if you instinctively look up when someone walks in a room you could end up in OP if it just happens to be a member of the opposite sex.
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On 2003-06-26 13:15:00, Anonymous wrote:
"No contradiction - If my son tells me NOW, after being home for over two years that he had been abused I would believe him. He trusts me, I trust him. We don't always agree, but that's life. He told me he was being abused and starving when he first arrived and I didn't believe him, though I did go and check it out in person. I had to BE clear on this as a responsible parent. I watched him while he ate barbeque ribs, salad, green beans and rice. Good food and plenty of it. No starvation there. I came unannounced and was welcomed. No secrecy there. I saw what you say is the OP room, though they call it something different at his school. Door was open, the kid in there smiled at me - no biggie - no different than being sent to your room for a time out except the smile. As for his allegations of abuse, didn't happen - no point in telling you what I did to confirm this..it was not happening.
I am not familiar with other schools, Straight, CEDU, Elan, etc., so I have no experience of them. I am telling my truth, my first hand knowledge, nothing more.
Carey - you made it sound like a "child/student" was molested at Dundee - that's not what happened, and you know it. What happened is why Amberly Knight is no longer the Director in my opinion. I don't believe the newspaper quotes on what Ken Kay said either ---her wanting to find a boyfriend, etc. I'd also be interested to hear how your husband admitted your boys without your knowledge. Wouldn't BEING with your family and growing and having fun together be more important than getting revenge against your ex-husband?
This board does it's job. If I were a parent looking for help I wouldn't send my kid to WWASP after reading the hatred here- too bad, it's the best in helping the whole family from my extensive experience. Nothing is perfect, but it was perfect for us. But of course, no parent should ever send their kid away, whether it be a week long girl scout camp against their will, private school or a specialty boarding school for troubled teens in your opinions. My mom sent me to a girl scout camp - kicking and screaming - when I didn't want to go, and I ended up having a wonderful experience, despite the mosquitos, bugs and snakes (and the rice and beans!) I know, that's different...
Antigen - I am so sorry your experience at Straight was the way it was. I guess I would have begun a sounding board too. You have a vision and a passion for what you are doing. So many people don't. I don't agree with it, but that's not my place.
P.S. - ALL my son's credits transferred.He graduated high school recently and has enrolled in a midwestern university to be an electrical engineer this fall. This would not have happened without my intervention and his commitment to himself as he had already stopped going to high school. A lot of the kids won't do their school work in the beginning - but that's not the main reason they're there anyway. If Morseglass admitted his kid for academics only, I would question why?? Blame is such a useless waste of energy. Sounds like there was more than academic problems involved here.
I've enjoyed the interaction here - whatever will be will be - with or without me. "
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Malnutrition: Low body weight causes you to stop producing estrogen, halting ovulation. Women who are malnurished often experience estrogen shutdown and don't have periods.
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It makes me physically sick to read these posts written by persons who care more about protecting some institutionalized-style program than they do their own children. How many more red flags must be raised before these parents start acting like responsible adults instead of spineless sponsors?
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I agree with ANON on the school in Utah - if that's where she is talking about. I too have seen the "OP" time out room. My kid earned his way there many times - It's not hidden or locked - just a time out - believe it or not if you wish. The food is great - ate there often ---never had ice cream though! Sweets are not allowed very often (Oh that's abuse!!) Funny how I came on this site tonight - ugly little place it seems. Guess I should get back to my brainwashing...see ya'll..
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The only thing I'm wishing is these program parents get as much publicity as they can b/c every time they open their mouths, it's downright obvious how out-to-lunch they really are!!!
:wave:
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check out the tico times or woodbury reports online. i saw an article that says two lawfirms out in california are filing a class action against the entire association of schools.
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thanks for your post. i too was on the wwasp parents board, searching for something to quel that urgent sense that something just wasn't right about that place, why hadn't they thought my son was "good" enuf to speak to me yet, what could he have done that was so terrible after 3 weeks he couldn't speak to his mother????? he never did drugs, drank, always knew where he was, with whom, their parents, always called when he was running late, he was there for skipping school, and for being disrespectful. and, what if my son is mentally ill and i hadn't fully explored that possibility (i have now, and he is) and what could putting a mentally ill child in that situation do for their illness, (physical abuse, mental abuse, restraints) my son had a breakdown. he told me the first thing they did was take him to a room, buz his hair, wrestle him to the ground, said the guys stomach was on his face and he couldn't breath, the guy telling him not to think he was a tough guy or try anything, his agressor was the state champion at wresting. His first freakin day, actually, i was still there, talking to the director, first 1/2 hour there. if i'd only known!
AT that point, poor nathan didn't even have a clue what was in store, he thought he was going to a boys' school to get his grades back on track, make friends with kids that had the same problems as him that could relate, academic problems, etc, get his life back on track, that maybe he'd be on their soccer team, he played soccer for ten years and he is good, that he'd be a shoo in for the team.
for three months after he came home, nobody, not at home or when he went to my sisters' houses, to his dad's house or anywhere could anyone use the bathroom without nathan standing outside, waiting for them to come out. this really freaked my sister out, she said what is with that, why does he do that? his teachers at school commented on his behaviors, saying specifically, he never exhibited these behaviors before he went to the NY school. his explanation for the reason he does certain things is "at school you have to wait till they are done with the bathroom" his reasons always started with "at school". I would wake up hearing him screaming and crying in his sleep. I was alarmed getting up in the middle of the night, my son, tears in his eyes, just standing there outside the bathroom door. what in the Fu_k happened to him there??? i remember the looks on those kids' faces, lined up in the hall when i went there to get him, i will never in my life forget. nathan was there for 3-1/2 weeks. my god, think what mental state he'd be in if he had to endure that for a prolonged period of time? He has never been the same since that place. i don't think i'll ever forgive myself
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my son lost over twenty pounds in 3-1/2 weeks.
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[ This Message was edited by: KarenZ on 2003-10-16 20:14 ]
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My son gained 25lbs in 3 months. You wanna talk to me?? hehehehehe - didn't think so. ::boohoo::
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Only those who are brave enough will stand up against the abuse, others hide behind the cultish approval.
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"My son gained 25lbs in 3 months. You wanna talk to me?? hehehehehe - didn't think so."
:eek: I feel sorry for your kid, for having YOU as his parent. My God, you place your kid in a dangerous place as if that's not bad enough and then you lie to this BB about some 'weight gain'. So how long have you been teaching him to lie now?
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[ This Message was edited by: KarenZ on 2003-10-16 20:17 ]
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Please don't rely on weight changes to verify abuse or not. At Casa by the Sea, the boys typically lose A LOT of weight. On the girls' side, they typically gain. Put it down to high carb diets (do the boys eat differently?), but the girls were gaining so much this spring that they brought in an old jock (BYU, no doubt) to run off those extra calories. He made them get up an hour earlier and run circles around the courtyard, then do scrunches and pushups. While it is a lame replacement for sports or PE, my grandaughter did enjoy the jump start to her morning (it was the only thing different in any given millenium). BTW she was also quite excited when they instituted a "nap period"...not for the nap, but for any change in the boring routine.
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Found this update on Intrepid Net Reporter.
http://www.thestraights.com (http://www.thestraights.com)
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Fuck you,
I know someone who went to Paradise cove. And i know their crazy bitch of a mother. These stories are true. Why don't you learn what you are talking about before you say something!!
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yeah i wanna talk to you
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Cant you guys raise your children???
Its your fault for being a poor parent..
If you werent a fucking tool your kids wouldnt be in bad shape..
You need to go to a parenting center...
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i am not sure when this was last written? i attended ccm, acc, the branch of wwasp in charter hospital. early 90s. if there is anyone out there who was there the same time or knows what i am talking about? [email protected]