Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Timoclea on April 13, 2004, 01:24:00 PM
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What is the usual experience nowadays when a child incarcerated in a Program turns 18?
What *usually* happens?
I and my friends have a friend in a program who's coming up on her birthday, and want to ensure that if her ordeal does not end *before* that date, that it certainly ends *on* that date, and that she has money and transportation to get to wherever she decides she wants to go---that she has the resources necessary to make a free choice.
What should we expect?
The parents have made noises about her coming home before then, as I understand it, but since the story has changed, repeatedly, on other issues related to her incarceration, nobody can really count on that.
Anybody on here who experienced their 18th birthday in a Program? Anybody have 2nd or 3rd hand accounts of people who have experienced their 18th in a Program?
It is *possible* that she'll be in a foreign country on her 18th. How would that complicate things?
Are they likely to let her go, or if they don't, what legal strategies have proven effective in the past?
How do you get access to someone in a Program who's just turned 18 to ask her if she wants to leave? (legally, I mean) What if they move her or even just say she's not there?
Any help of people describing their 18th birthday in Program experiences would be very helpful.
Thanks.
Men seldom, or rather never for a length of time, and deliberately, rebel against anything that does not deserve rebelling against.
--Thomas Carlyle
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Oh, also, anybody who knows of recent accounts where legal action has had to be employed to make a program cough up an 18 year old, links would be much appreciated.
Of course we all hope this will not be the case, but the uncertainty factor is very high.Life may have no meaning. Or even worse, it may have a meaning of which I disapprove.
Ashleigh Brilliant
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AT the magic age of 18 any one has the right to leave any facility they have been sent to by the parents such as the behavioural facilities. If they are in a foreign country they can go to an embassy and requet repatriation. If they have no means to get to the embassy they may need assistance by a friend to help them get there. Tmay not have any papers with them. The embassy can take care of this and supply a passport and a plane ticket to get them home.
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It might help if you could tell us which program you are talking about. I've heard of various techniques being used to keep kids in programs when they reach the magic age including:
1. Plain old illegal detention, possibly with the assistance of corrupt local officials.
2. Fake court orders.
3. Telling the kid their friends have forsaken them (no way to check if held incommunicado) and the family will leave them homeless, unskilled, inexperienced and destitute unless they graduate.
4. Telling the kid they are free to leave but the nearest road is seven miles away and if they try to make it through the swamp they are likely to be eaten by alligators.
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:wstupid: BTW that was me.
Looking though your other posts, they seem to be mainly about WWASP. My understanding is that the current WWASP favorite is number 3 above, though they have used 2, and possibly 1, in the past.
And if the kid is abroad, don't expect any more than the bare minimum help from the embassy. WWASP seem to maintain a very cosy relationship with them.
[ This Message was edited by: Kiwi on 2004-04-13 14:09 ]
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On 2004-04-13 14:02:00, Kiwi wrote:
" :wstupid: BTW that was me.
Looking though your other posts, they seem to be mainly about WWASP. My understanding is that the current WWASP favorite is number 3 above, though they have used 2, and possibly 1, in the past.
And if the kid is abroad, don't expect any more than the bare minimum help from the embassy. WWASP seem to maintain a very cosy relationship with them.
[ This Message was edited by: Kiwi on 2004-04-13 14:09 ]"
This isn't WWASPS. It's ASR, and nobody seems to know much about them.
It is possible that 4 is an option---Cummington MA is the back end of nowhere.
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That was me.
So are you saying it's routine for these places to try to hang on past age 18?
Is there some kind of place I can go to get evidence that that happens a lot? It might actually be helpful.
JulieThe government is much more interested in preserving the purity of its ideology than it is in allowing patients to get effective medicine.
-- Ethan B. Russo, neurologist at Western Montana Clinic
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So are you saying it's routine for these places to try to hang on past age 18?
Don't know. But the combination of a facility that is only interested in making money and parents who are only interested in control would seem to make it a distinct possibility.
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So are you saying it's routine for these places to try to hang on past age 18?
Is there some kind of place I can go to get evidence that that happens a lot? It might actually be helpful.
Julie
Why not ask peanut crunch?
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?fo ... 2826#30186 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?forum=9&start=10&topic=2826#30186)
i can answer pretty much any question from a-z regarding asr, so pm me if you have a q.
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I know someone who turned 18 in a WWASP facility in Jamaica and his parents had to buy him a ticket off the island because he chose not to stay. The school took him to the airport and waited for him to leave and that was it.
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Is your friend on life-saving meds? One story that has been told went like this:
Teen turned 18. They told him he could leave, his choice. But, as he was preparing to leave they refused to give him the meds he needed. Stating that they "were his father's property". Ironically, just like his son- chattel.
That's not choice, that's manipulation and deception- ironically what all warehouses boast about 'treating'.
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On 2004-04-13 16:52:00, Deborah wrote:
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Is your friend on life-saving meds? One story that has been told went like this:
Teen turned 18. They told him he could leave, his choice. But, as he was preparing to leave they refused to give him the meds he needed. Stating that they "were his father's property". Ironically, just like his son- chattel.
That's not choice, that's manipulation and deception- ironically what all warehouses boast about 'treating'."
We could deal with that. Take her straight to a doc-in-the-box to get a replacement prescription. No problem.
The right of self-defense is the first law of nature; in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest possible limits. ... and [when] the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any color or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction.
-- St. George Tucker, Judge of the Virginia Supreme Court 1803
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That works, but could be contingent on the inmate knowing there's someone outside willing to do that.
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OK, third-hand experience:
My grandaughter, from Casa by the Sea (WWASPS) in Mexico, told me:
She had a friend, a great basketball coach for my grandaughter, who turned 18, and, being on already-treacherous ground with her parents, signed herself out and was completely alone. She was basically pushed out the front fortress doors, and was said to have tried to make her way to aunts and uncles in Texas with $50 from WWASPS. Remember that Casa is about 12 miles out of Ensenada, on a freeway, and getting into the town itself is a challenge. One can only imagine how this 18yo made it to Texas. [All this was pre-release, as my grandaughter talked to her just prior to the 18yo's release.] My grandaughter, who was very fond of the girl, still wishes she could make contact to assure that all went well, but contact between former inmates is as impossible as WWASPS can make it.
Another girl, upon turning 18, was set to go to her uncles's dental practice in a town near us in Northern California. {We thought maybe this information was passed by our grandaughter in a censored letter to us in hopes that we would contact this girl. We called every dentist in Mt. Shasta and Redding, asking for "Monica"..."uuuhhhh, no one here by that name". Turns out, it was just a random statement, and our grandaughter still wonders if the girl made it into a "real life" after Casa, as she seemed to have not been afforded the opportunity to train in her uncle's dental practice.)
A third girl {first-hand experience by emails between her and me), left when she turned 18, fortified by money from her step-father, one of two stepfathers, who financed her ***38 months*** in WWASPS, the last in Casa by the Sea. She was financed home, but home was not the Northern California place where she came from, but another location in Connecticut. This girl, who viewed WWASPS positively, as it was the "best" family she had ever lived in, returned for a visit about 6 months after she was released [she was now looking toward college]. The visit went horribly, with Dace Goulding being his usual hurtful self, and she being escorted by two Level IV's, never allowed more than 10 feet from her escorts. When she asked about her best friend in Casa, Dace told her the girl had been returned home. Sadly, our "career WWASPIE" saw her best friend, and physically pushed past her "escorts" to hug the good friend who was indeed still incarcerated at Casa by the Sea. What purpose could be served by such hurtful action on the part of Dace Goulding, the director of Casa by the Sea? To lie in order to manipulate two girls who formed a bond? Sadism? Meaness? Evilness????
New parents, judge for yourself the character of the man set in complete, absolute, unregulated, unknown charge of your daughers. Is this really what you want to do?
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Even if you turn 18 in a WWASP program they CAN hold you for longer if you are there by court order as a risk to yourself or a risk to those in society. I knew a girl who was there for 6 years
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Did she ever check on the validity of the court order? I know of a few people who thought they were court ordered to Straight but it turned out to be bogus.
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
--Albert Einstein
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If I am not mistaken, I believe even if a kid is court-ordered but they are over 18, they have the right to challenge/contest the order. Would imagine that's easier said than done considering how these kids have so little access to the outside world. Hopefully, the parents of this girl will not pursue a court order, but if they do, make sure you find out whether your friend can challenge it, and if so, whether she is willing to do so. Good Luck!!!
:smile:
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She's not court ordered.
As far as I've been able to find out from her close friends, there was darned little reason for sending her there in the first place.
IMO, the parents are flakes and she was inconvenient and has a personality type too different from theirs.
Not to mention that she had the temerity to actually get angry when her parents did flaky things on a whim that adversely impacted her.
And some of the things they did *anyone* sane with any self-respect would have been mad at them.
The *parents*, IMO, *do* need therapy. They just need *competent* therapy instead of something premised on the kid's anger being all the kid's fault instead of actually justified by the parents treating her badly.
And based on what I've heard, some of that treatment bordered on actionable neglect, and probably crossed the line to it.
They don't have anything on which to *get* a real court order.
And there's already a lawyer who's volunteered to help out if they try to keep her past 18.
I know there are some situations where the kid's really challenging and you can almost feel for the parents even if you don't agree with their choices.
This isn't one of those.
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Why can't she just walk out when she turns 18 and have you or a friend waiting there to meet her?
Or the lawyer can get a writ of Habeus Corpus issued through the courts. This would work 100%.
Being held against her will when she is 18 would be illegal. The writ of Habeus Corpus would take care of this. Check with you attorney friend.
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I spent 18 months in costa rica, and turned 18 after about 10 months of being there. I graduated the program and then turned nineteen like a few months later. In Costa rica, it was hard as hell to leave when you turned 18. A lot of kids wanted to. There are TONS of things that get in your way; first of all, after doing months and months of work to get where you are, just WANTING to leave showed signs of lack of progress. You were SUPPOSED to be there to help yourself, and wanting to leave showed that you weren't committed to that. We were told that at 18 we were allowed to walk through the gates and right out the door, but only like one person actually did it, and he was picked up by staff after a while. We weren't promised plane tickets or anything- that's what we were told. There were 18 year olds who did successfully leave, and it was always a complicated situation. When you are limited to your communication with your parents (which is pretty much the only outside communication you had), it is hard to find someone to come and pick you up or something. The secret to actually getting out was very hush hush. I personally think that when kids know they can get out when they are 18 retards their progress, and I am hella glad that I stayed. It really did suck while I was there though. Another influencing factor is the family rep. To my knowledge, this is the person that has control over the situation when you turn 18, in terms of booking plane tickets or whatever. We all knew we could walk out the door, but what if we didn't make it back to the states? We would be illegal residents in Costa Rica. And like I said, if you acted on it and failed, then you were level one, with zero points alllll over again...
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On 2004-04-16 07:58:00, Christopher Riner wrote:
"We were told that at 18 we were allowed to walk through the gates and right out the door, but only like one person actually did it, and he was picked up by staff after a while."
By "picked up" do you mean he was found wandering around with no money and nowhere to go and persuaded to return, or kidnapped and illegally detained?
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Okay, so wherever she is on her 18th birthday we will make sure she has someone there to get her to the embassy and airport, and money, and plane tickets if she's out of the country, and someone with a car and money for her, who can arrange transportation wherever she wants to go if she's somewhere else.
Her parents can hold her against her will until she is 18, but be damned if they're going to hold her against her will a day longer without legal action.
She *will* be informed by attorneys and/or the police---people official enough that she can be absolutely sure it's not a test---that she *can* leave, and that she *has* choices of multiple places to go to stay while she gets back on her feet, and that she *can* get pretty much wherever she wants and get started getting established and into school.
She is *not* going to be illegally detained without one hell of a fight and one hell of a load of consequences for any perpetrators.
Grrrr.
If she *chooses* to stay that's her lookout, but she *will* be told by credible authorities outside of that institution or her parents what her full range of choices are.
"If people knew they could leave on their 18th birthday" indeed!
Grrrr.
Damn straight she'll know she can leave. We can't make them allow access to officials to tell her before her birthday, but we for damn sure can set it up *on* her birthday.
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On your friend's behalf, you can contact the State Department Overseas Citizens Services office at (202) 647-5225. They can help you begin to set up things for your friend before her 18th birthday. If having a passport is an issue, you can arrange for identifying information to be sent to the consulate where she will apply for a replacement passport. The OCS can also help you set up a trust for your friend where you can deposit money for her to use to buy a plane ticket home. I think there's a charge for this. The OCS can advise you of the nearest place you can wire money (like Western Union). If you can, make sure that your friend has the telephone number of the nearest consulate/embassy so she can call them for help when she is released.
As an aside, US law provides that minors 14 and older have to apply for their own passports in person. So if a parent is attempting to send a minor overseas to a program and the minor doesn't already have a passport, the minor should refuse to sign the application. If there is some sort of duress going on, the minor should tell the passport official. With all the post September 11th protections, the federal government is very interested in children who are pressured into applying for passports, for whatever reason. Moreover, children 14 and older are entitled to the assistance of the local US Consulate and may, under certain circumstances, be entitled to repatriation, regardless of parental consent. If the local consulate seems to be "cozy" with the program, it might be helpful to frame the issue as one of child exploitation/human trafficking, since my understanding is that kids in overseas programs are forced to work for free. Abducting a child -- with or without parental consent -- for forced labor is a violation of US and international law.
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The advice on how to work the US Department of State system in leaving a foreign country is very good. However...BE ADVISED...
The Consulate of our State Department out of Tijuana, Mexico (for Northern Mexico) is in tight with the WWASPS facility (Casa by the Sea in Ensenada). The attache, Al Anzeldua, in Tijuana, and his Ensenada representative, Greg Garner, are very good friends with Dace Goulding, Director at Casa by the Sea. They make "surprise" visits/investigations on a very regular basis, have lunch, and tour the grounds escorted by these dear friends. Mr. Alzendua thinks the WWASPS model of behavior modification is really dandy, and sees no problems or abuse at the facility (even though he has been told repeatedly his visits are tightly-scripted visits with programmed escorts and only to areas deemed appropriate by the management). Mr. Anzeldua has refused to allow requested welfare checks on American citizens in Mexico, even though that is the law and the written policy of the State Department. Mr. Anzeldua has refused to inform juvenile US citizens that by law they cannot be held against their will in a foreign country if they are over the age of 14. Mr. Anzeldua has refused to act upon illegal interruption of US Mail going to US citizens in Mexico. Mr. Anzeldua, when communicating his sympathy at the situation in our family that isolated our grandaughter from not only the outside world, but from any direct communication with her mother for nearly one year, suggested we just wait and "be there for her when she gets out".
In short, if the young girl in question needs help from our Department of State office serving Northern Mexico, expect to get the minimum or none at all.
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Spots - save it for someone who believes YOU. You said whatever you could to make yourself right and in the end, was found without merit. Give it up. What you are saying is that this guy would risk his career for a friendship with Dace. That's a good dream, sleep tight.
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On 2004-04-19 20:21:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Spots - save it for someone who believes YOU. You said whatever you could to make yourself right and in the end, was found without merit. Give it up. What you are saying is that this guy would risk his career for a friendship with Dace. That's a good dream, sleep tight. "
The kid we're talking about has about as much chance of being in Mexico on her birthday as she has of being on Mars, so one way or the other the Mexico/Casa/Dace thing is irrelevant to her.
That said, if you don't think that 18 year olds have the right to leave "programs" in foreign countries and be repatriated, then you're part of the problem, not part of the solution.
If I had my way, every one of the kids moved to a "boarding school" in a foreign country would be registered with the State Department, along with his/her date of birth, and would receive a visit from embassy personnel (accompanied by local law enforcement if necessary) on his or her 18th birthday offering immediate repatriation upon request.
And if you don't agree with that, then you're obviously up to no good.
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On 2004-04-19 18:08:00, spots wrote:
"The advice on how to work the US Department of State system in leaving a foreign country is very good. However...BE ADVISED...
The Consulate of our State Department out of Tijuana, Mexico (for Northern Mexico) is in tight with the WWASPS facility (Casa by the Sea in Ensenada). The attache, Al Anzeldua, in Tijuana, and his Ensenada representative, Greg Garner, are very good friends with Dace Goulding, Director at Casa by the Sea. ".
In short, if the young girl in question needs help from our Department of State office serving Northern Mexico, expect to get the minimum or none at all. "
I would think that the answer here is to keep going higher up. There's an ambassador to Mexico, so call his office and ask to speak with him. Does it take time? Sure. But I cannot believe that Colin Powell is going to tell you that it's U.S. policy to leave citizen minors locked in work camps. As I suggested, you can also contact organizations that deal with child exploitation, the American Red Cross, and Amnesty International. You can bet that if it was my child/grandchild in one of these places, every human being I came into contact with would know about it. Eventually, the school will get sick of the attention and allow the child to leave or the parents will get sick of the attention and bring the kid home.
The attache may NOT have to inform U.S. citizen minors that they can not be held. I don't remember reading anything about an affirmative duty of State Department officials to advise people of their rights, unless they're asked. However, if when asked, he is advising minors that they have no right to leave or, when they leave, turning them away from the consulate, then he needs to be reported.
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On 2004-04-20 10:24:00, notworking wrote:
"I cannot believe that Colin Powell is going to tell you that it's U.S. policy to leave citizen minors locked in work camps.
Ok, I think a little background might be in order here. If the facility were located in Italy, you'd find the founder of Straight, Inc. heading up the American Embassy. If it got to Colin Powell, he gave his endorsement to an outfit called American Buffalo Soldiers Reenactors:
More Info. http://www.kaet.asu.edu/horizon/transcr ... 9_2002.htm (http://www.kaet.asu.edu/horizon/transcripts/2002/july/july9_2002.htm)
I note, to his credit (or maybe just his handlers' acumen) that a search on American Buffalo Soldiers Reenactors and Colin Powell no longer turns up any results. But you begin to see the problem? This form of "treatment" is not only still in use, it's broadly accepted for treating troubling youth and those who suffer from getting busted in posession of certain substances. And it's endorsed by some pretty powerful people.
How high does it go? Well, look into the history and regarding National Families in Action
http://www.nationalfamilies.org/publica ... _band.html (http://www.nationalfamilies.org/publications/about_nfia/parents_band.html)
http://www.nationalfamilies.org/ (http://www.nationalfamilies.org/)
I think you're right, though. The best answer I can come up with is that we take it up the chain of command. Next step after the Executive, Legislative and Judiciary branches would be the IVth Estate.
Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.
--Mark Twain
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Seed sibling `71 - `80
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
It is wrong to leave a stumbling block in the road once it has tripped you.
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Other links on this topic:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=231&forum=9 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=231&forum=9)
http://thebuffalosoldiers.com/theplan.htm (http://thebuffalosoldiers.com/theplan.htm)
In 1995, at the request of General Colin Powell and the Phoenix Mayor's office, AAmerica's Buffalo Soldier CAPSAG Youth Programs were developed by ABSRA with a special emphasis on youth-at-risk of all culturally diverse arena. Development of CAPSAG Omega Academy and Fort Powell, America's Buffalo Soldier Military Academy, college prep boarding school are in progress. In-House Management
Colonel Charles F. Long II, President/CEO
http://www.ontheissues.org/Cabinet/Coli ... Values.htm (http://www.ontheissues.org/Cabinet/Colin_Powell_Principles_+_Values.htm)
http://www.loc.gov/bicentennial/propage ... stor4.html (http://www.loc.gov/bicentennial/propage/AZ/az-2_h_pastor4.html)
http://www.siue.edu/ALESTLE/library/spr ... life2.html (http://www.siue.edu/ALESTLE/library/spring1998/feb.24.98/life2.html)
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On 2004-04-19 20:21:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Spots - save it for someone who believes YOU. You said whatever you could to make yourself right and in the end, was found without merit. Give it up. What you are saying is that this guy would risk his career for a friendship with Dace. That's a good dream, sleep tight. "
I don't think it's so much about social cliques or big money payoffs in smoke filled back rooms as it is about deeply entrenched religious fanaticism. I think the people who protect and promote these programs at the highest levels are no less sincere and dedicated to their cause than was Joseph Goebbels. This year will go down in history! For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!
Adolph Hitler
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On 2004-04-16 13:12:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Okay, so wherever she is on her 18th birthday we will make sure she has someone there to get her to the embassy and airport, and money, and plane tickets if she's out of the country, and someone with a car and money for her, who can arrange transportation wherever she wants to go if she's somewhere else.
Her parents can hold her against her will until she is 18, but be damned if they're going to hold her against her will a day longer without legal action.
She *will* be informed by attorneys and/or the police---people official enough that she can be absolutely sure it's not a test---that she *can* leave, and that she *has* choices of multiple places to go to stay while she gets back on her feet, and that she *can* get pretty much wherever she wants and get started getting established and into school.
She is *not* going to be illegally detained without one hell of a fight and one hell of a load of consequences for any perpetrators.
Grrrr.
If she *chooses* to stay that's her lookout, but she *will* be told by credible authorities outside of that institution or her parents what her full range of choices are.
"If people knew they could leave on their 18th birthday" indeed!
Grrrr.
Damn straight she'll know she can leave. We can't make them allow access to officials to tell her before her birthday, but we for damn sure can set it up *on* her birthday."
You need to register and send me a private email I have some information that you need to have access to and it will help you dramatically. Use the private messages on this website and contact me. Paige