Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => Straight, Inc. and Derivatives => Topic started by: Matt B on June 27, 2002, 01:24:00 PM
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I've been on hiatus from the Straight forums for quite some time now.(I found myself caught up in all those bad ol' memories there for a while, and decided I needed to focus on more positive things.)
I've managed to contact several old commerades from the Hellhole I was in down in Marietta, GA. Ain't the internet dandy?
Anyway, if you were in Straight,Atlanta during the late 80's, chime in just in case we know each other. Or just chime in anyway. ; )
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Hey Matt, I was there a few years before you, in 84. Good to hear you're focusing on the positive. I try to as well but every once in a while it all sneaks up on me again. To me the cool thing about all these posts is finding out that most people survived and are leading fulfilling lives, when at the time I was in it all seemed so hopeless.
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I was there all throughout the '80s. -Clay
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Hey, Kausmonaut! Thanks for the reply. It's good to find other Straight survivors that have done well. I have managed alright, but I, like most others, have been forever scarred by that ordeal, and fairly often, still, find myself having to "get over it" again, and again. I am even actually angry that I didn't know then what I know now. I should have copped out and went "straight" to a lawyer's office and sued 'em all for violating my civil rights. But, that was then, this is now. I shouldn't be ranting in this post, anyway.
Good to meet you---it's better we met here than in that hellhole.
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Yeah, poor ol' Clay spent damn near all the 80's in Straight. You took it in stride, though, huh? Probably even worked at Mr. Pride Carwash at one time or another. I know I did.
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Hell No! I never was part of the Mr. Pride chiche`. I had me a government job working with Abby (can't rememer the last name's) Dad. You'd remember her. A flat out babe that drove that Black Fiat Spyder. I can still picture her in tight jeans leading a rap. The government job paid very well and I had lots of days off and pretty good benefits also. If you can ever get one of them take it. They would be seriously disappointes if your put in a full days work.
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OMG ! I worked there
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Clay, her last name was Orr and yes she was a hottie. My first day there somebody had spraypainted "Scabby Whore" on the side of the building. It took me a while to figure that one out.
Scott
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I was not in the group with you but I think my mom was on staff the first year of Straight Atlanta - her name was Dorothy Sykes
did you know her?
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Kosmonaut , Care to give your name ?
Scott Lewis
[ This Message was edited by: SALEWIS67 on 2002-07-22 14:51 ]
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Marnie Sykes
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Hi, Matt and Marnie,
I was in Marietta Straight in 1982. We may have even spoken before by email, but you were going by a different screen name then if we did. When I was there, David Tilley (sp?) was the director. He'd been my principle at a local middle school, and he actually talked me into going into the program.
I'm just curious: I know Ann Crow ended up in Real Estate, but whatever happened to her son and Mrs. Byrd's son, the redheaded guy with the ducktail. I heard that a lot of the staff got caught doing drugs in 83 or 84.
And can you refresh my memory? What was the bathroom incident?
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Hi, I'm trying to figure out what this bathroom incident was as well; it happened just a few days before my DAY 1. There were whispers about it, but discussing it was taboo. I never found out what happened.
Scott Lewis
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This happened just after I got out in Dec of 84. Apparently the Dir decided he'd had enough of the fucking misbehavers and decieded to confront the issue head on. With the help of several of the more gung-ho 5th phasers and some of the staff, the misbehavers were taken into the bathroom and shown what life in the gutter was like. From what I heard they had their heads flushed in the toilets and, with no pretense of restraining the client, had the hell beaten out of them. I think there were some broken bones. Several staff members were fired including the Director, all the participating 5th phasers were started over or thrown out of the program. Tom really could tell you more about it he was still there.
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What'up Clay ? That clears things up. I think it happened earlier than that, because in September of 84 when I got there I;m pretty sure it had already happened (but I could be wrong).
ps Mr Pride was the job to have. Are you kidding ? In a word: Sunshine.
Scott
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I remember Ms. Crow and always liked her. For some reason she struck me as giving a damn. I really should remember Ms. Byrd but I don't. I do remember this, Ms. Milnachuk used to always scare the shit out of me. No idea why as she never confronted me.
Yes, there was always a VERY high relaspe rate for staff member. I can even remember rumors of staff members using drugs and leading raps at the same time. I remember a parent telling me that I didn't want to be on staff once because to many of them relasped.
CL
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Dude, I was knocking down $250+ a week with no bills..., and I still worked outside.
CL
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I guarantee you we made that much at the car wash, dude. Minimum wage for 8 hours a day plus $20 - $30 a day in tips. On a good day some guys could make 50 bucks in tips alone. Ask anyone who worked there.
Not knocking your job, but the car wash was a good job for a phaser.
SL
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Clay,
I liked Mrs. Crow too, at first. Since leaving, though, I've realized that she was probably only around as a "good cop" to Dennis Buttimer's "bad cop." I vividly remember her coming into my intake to soften me up after Buttimer had reemed me out because my "corneas were cloudy," which he took as evidence of a lot of pot use. The fact that I was there voluntarily (Forgive me: I was young and naive) made no difference: nothing I said could be trusted.
Any way, Ann Crow kneeling at my feet, touching my knee gently, and telling me softly to "just try to cooperate" took the edge off my defenses for when Buttimer and the oldcomers heaped on the accusations. It was very effective.
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On 2002-07-22 14:50:00, SALEWIS67 wrote:
Kosmonaut , Care to give your name ?
Scott Lewis
[ This Message was edited by: SALEWIS67 on 2002-07-22 14:51 ]
Sure, why not? It's David Sutton.
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On 2002-07-22 15:50:00, ClayL wrote:
This happened just after I got out in Dec of 84. Apparently the Dir decided he'd had enough of the fucking misbehavers and decieded to confront the issue head on. With the help of several of the more gung-ho 5th phasers and some of the staff, the misbehavers were taken into the bathroom and shown what life in the gutter was like. From what I heard they had their heads flushed in the toilets and, with no pretense of restraining the client, had the hell beaten out of them. I think there were some broken bones. Several staff members were fired including the Director, all the participating 5th phasers were started over or thrown out of the program. Tom really could tell you more about it he was still there.
I think I remember that. At least, I remember the people being abused, but I don't remember all the 5th phasers being set back and people being fired. Although since I was a 1st phaser I wouldn't have known much anyway. I was definitely there at that time.
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I remember her.... Abby Oar!!!!
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the bathroom incident did not occur until February of 85....my brother, James, was one of the 5th trainees and was set back completely. He was so set back that he left the program. It was a really bad scene, one that did permanent damage to not only my family, but to many others as well.
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I was there. It was May or June of 85. Days off were called in because the "condition of the group". No one could move up on phases and no one could could 7-step. Hell they had even taken our "singing privledges" away, which I have to say I was grateful for, I always hated that crap, still can't hear a James Taylor song without getting angry or depressed. But anyway, all that to say that staff had created a very hostile environment towards the 18 or so people that were "mis behaving" at the time. Thank God I was at school or work, can't remember which, at the time it happened. I was on 5th phase, so probally would have been involved if I had been there. Iremember coming in and seeing the blood, torn clothing, and holes in tahe walls in the guys bath room and asking another 5th phaser what happened. I remember his response to this day. He enthusiastically said it was "rightous" that Buttimer had given us the go ahead to kick some ass.Even in my brainwashed 5th phase S.S. metality, I felt sick. I it had gone way to far. Alot of people got really hurt that day... the kind of hurts that don't go away with stitches and casts.
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Let me clarify some of this-
I was the only staff-trainee in the bathroom the entire day.There were four or five guys brought in over different periods of time.
NO bones were broken and NO blood was spilled while I was in there. Period. Whoever claims there was is repeating a rumour and talking without direct knowledge.
One kid had his head dunked in the toilet one time, that was Bob Ambrose, the youngest of the brothers. And although I was in the room when it happened, I stopped it after one dunk, because I had begun to realize that it was wrong at about that point.
We did make physical contact with clients that day, but no one was beaten, so to speak, we poked them in the chest, pushed them against walls. Frankly many many people were treated worse in open group, hundreds of times.
The stuff that happened in there was wrong no doubt, but it was by no means a license to beat people as some may have told you. Mostly we screamed and yelled and humliated people in a intense envronment similar to a boot camp.
Mr. Tilly was the exec in charge then, and I have no idea if he was specifically aware of what was happening while it happened.
Monty Bingham is the Sr. Staffer that told me to take a list of people into the bathroom and do 'whatever it fucking takes, I don't care, but make them change'
He was also in the office the next day with Kris and others, all of the execs, while I was confronted for what happened. Ironically, the primary arguement against me was that this was not how I had been treated. I agreed, not having the nerve to tell the truth, that I had been treated as bad or worse- I was threatened with a gun as a newcomer, sexually molested as a newcomer, and had to ask for permision each time I wiped my ass in one home, just to mention a few things.
To my knowledge only one other person was set back- Rob was dropped to a fourth phase refrsher as I was. Most of the rest were confronted heavily in group, but I do not remember any of them being set back. I took full responsibility for what happened, except for Rob, who I believe was set back because he admitted leading the charge to dunk Bob's head in the toilet. Not that it makes it any better, but the toilet did not, as some have claimed, have any shit or piss in it at the time.
Mr. Tilly did leave the program shortly after I did, though whether he was fired or not I have no idea.
If it makes you feel better, I have spent 19 years living with nightmares almost daily that include the events in the bathroom. I can't hold a job, never went to school, am extremely uncomfortable around children, self medicated for the better part of 19 years, I have signifacant health issues because of the stress involved and the degree of self-loathing I feel, even as I write this I find myself wishing that I would simply die to escape the reality of what those bastards turned me into.
I have attempted suicide multiple times, I have commited myself at least twice, and to this day, I regularly consider suicide, and have to call my therapist and talk it out.
I have stress related back problems that are directly related to these events, I have been hospitalized twice in the past five years because of the pain.
I do not live a happy life, I live a life in which I can not fall assleep, I mostly end up sleeping in the daylight, and only after being awake for 24-36 hours at a time. I dream of home invasions by former clients who come to kill me, and I often wake up screaming and covered in sweat.
I was beaten up by a former client outside a bowling alley in 1986. He knocked me out cold and then spent some time hitting me in the face and stomach before I recovered enough to flag down a cop. He made it clear that he felt I was to blame for anything that happened to him because I was a ficking staff trainee- in reality I was jsut as affraid and compliant as anyone elee, and I had little or no power at all.
I moved around from state to state and home to home for a long time without filing a change of address form, for fear that the program or former clients were hunting me down to kill me.
As damaging as these events were to Bob, or to others that were brought into the bathroom that day, they were just as damaging to me, and I suspect to any of the fifth phasers that were in there.
So hate me if you want, if it makes you feel better. But do it for the truth, and not over some rumour that spread over the years and grew into something that simply is not true.
There were similar events in the girls bathroom, I do not know who was involved and I have no idea what became of it. I withdrew from the program within two days of these events.
There is no way in any sense that I should have ever been left alone in the bathroom in that environment. I was a trainee, and as such I was expendable and a good scapegoat.
The program was by its very nature and design abuseive to everyone who was admitted. It was the very core of the program to humilate people and make them feel intense emotions of guilt and shame, and that was part of the modality far before Straight adopted it- as far back as the 1950's under the name Synanon, and before that as a thought reform process developed in China and Korean POW camps.
The only person to blame is Melvin Sembler, he was the driving force, he knew how the modality worked, and according to former members of board of directors, he was determined to avoid any kind of legitmate medical assesments prior to admission- fro mthe very start.
Everyone who was brought in was brainwashed, from exec's like Ann Crow whose own children when through the program, all the way down the group staff. Sure some people were more comfortable than others with the modality, but then all people are different and some people enjoy power.
Personally I think the Callum kid, who was turned into a walking bruise after breaking helen Mortons Jaw- was treated worse than jsut about anyone in the Atlanta group between 83-85.
I can never getr rid of the image of him being arrested outside that day, literally covered in bruises- and charged with felony battery- while those who had beaten him went scott free. But then the program had some kind of political connection with the sherriff of cobb county at the time, as well as local judges in their pocket.
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Like I said, I wasn't there when it went down and I'm in no way accusing you of being responsible. We all, I would suppose, did things to other people we are ashamed of and would never do under normal circumstances. Unfortunately, cruelty was just a part of the methodology of the program and it was inevietable if you planned on ever getting out of there not to mention that by the time you reached your higher phases you really believed the things you were doing to people was helping to save their lives, or at least I did. I in no way blame you for the events of that day, if I remember you correctly you were a pretty kind hearted guy and a fairly good trainee in respect to treating people fairly. Unless my memory is totally whacked though, I do remember blood,holesin the walls and torn clothing in the bathroom and I believe Donny K. from Gastonia was messed up pretty bad. Things like that happened. Blaming other victims does no good for anyone. I do hold executive staff responsible though. They were completely aware of what was being done to us and not only did nothing to stop it but profited from it. There were also several girls hurt pretty bad that day, so yes, it did take place on the girls side too. I'm sorry for the pain that time has caused you and I hope that life with freedom from the effects of it is on the horizon for us both.
Marc
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On 2002-10-20 00:44:00, cram737 wrote:
Like I said, I wasn't there when it went down and I'm in no way accusing you of being responsible. We all, I would suppose, did things to other people we are ashamed of and would never do under normal circumstances. Unfortunately, cruelty was just a part of the methodology of the program and it was inevietable if you planned on ever getting out of there not to mention that by the time you reached your higher phases you really believed the things you were doing to people was helping to save their lives, or at least I did. I in no way blame you for the events of that day, if I remember you correctly you were a pretty kind hearted guy and a fairly good trainee in respect to treating people fairly. Unless my memory is totally whacked though, I do remember blood,holesin the walls and torn clothing in the bathroom and I believe Donny K. from Gastonia was messed up pretty bad. Things like that happened. Blaming other victims does no good for anyone. I do hold executive staff responsible though. They were completely aware of what was being done to us and not only did nothing to stop it but profited from it. There were also several girls hurt pretty bad that day, so yes, it did take place on the girls side too. I'm sorry for the pain that time has caused you and I hope that life with freedom from the effects of it is on the horizon for us both.
Marc
Here, HERE!
Clay
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Through the blessing of blocked memories, I can only recall Rob, and Bob, of all the people that were in the bathroom.
Donny K, rings absolutely no bells at all, and I am glad of it.
There may have been holes in the wall, for one thing I got so frustrated with Bob that I hit the wall myself, and may well have bloodied my own knuckles.
But it is hard to say, and these issues work out very slowly.
I was nothing more than a fall guy in this incident- a disposable low ranking staffer whose loyalty was being tested. Had Bob Ambrose not gone home and told his foster parents what happened, and had they not started calling execs that night, this would have been like any other day in the program, and nothing would have come of it.
I would have gone on to rise through the staff ranks, most likely to the top. I would likely have become a drug warrior, a zealot, and most likely a law enforcement officer- I am glad that it blew up in my face, because despite the horror I live with and have survived so far- I think that I am a better person today for all of it.
I whole heartedly bought into the ideology of the program ( that is- shame and guilt are necessary motivators for one to become a good citizen), I was convinced that we were fighting against a devil inspired disease that was insidous and evil. I was resolute in my desire to help people, much as I thought that I had been helped, and continued to believe for literally 18 years.
In retrospect I was a deeply confused young man, who had been severely abused both prior tp my intake and during both of my programs. I was desparate for something to believe in, I was idealistic, altruistc, and highly intelligent and impressionable.
Those are prime elements of a cult-joiner and believer, across the spectrum of cultic groups.
I have a hard time holding some of the exec's responsible, because they were themselves brainwashed. Plenty of adults get brainwashed and believe really wacked out stuff- look at the doctrine behind scientology and think of the high profile grown ups ( Tom Cruise, John Travolta) who are high ranking memebers of the 'cult'.
I hold Melvin Sembler and his Wife, along with Joseph Zappala, Art Barker, Robert Dupont, and the others who developed and refined the modality fully responsible.
Incidentally, Tilly was on as an exec for a while, then left and returned as the director after Dave Buttermur left. It was Tilly who presided over the roughest periods of late 84 and early 85.
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James wrote: "Incidentally, Tilly was on as an exec for a while, then left and returned as the director after Dave Buttermur left. It was Tilly who presided over the roughest periods of late 84 and early 85."
This I did not know. I remember Tilly from when I first came in and he left before I got out. Buttermer was the director then. When I came back on the Mini-program, Ben Webb was the Director, but he left shortly after I got there.
CL
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All I know is that Buttimer resided over my intake in July 84. He was the driving force behind all of my sister's set backs, stuff like that is hard to forget. I remember Tilly coming in right before I stepped in June 85 and I don't recall ever seeing Buttimer after the day all that happened. I always assumumed he got fired or left because of it. What I am absolutely sure of is that he was the exec. for the major portion of my program. I was 12 years old and terrified of the man.
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James, trying to tell me that Buttimer wasn't there during that time is about the equivalent of me telling you that Sembler is a figment of your imagination. The man did one hell of a head job on me during my intake that effected me the whole year I was there. Every time he entered the room I would start to shake and sweat, much like I am right now. A condition that made it real hard when he called on me during executive raps to appear that I wasn't guilty of something,which I rarely ever was cosidering I was scared to death and a complete conformist, which in turn only heightened my anxiety. Any time he was around I was in complete state of panic. So, if you don't agree with me, do the reasearch but don't make me out to be a fraud or just "mistaken". I apologize if my statements about the "bathroom incedent" put you on the defensive but I am only here to try and make some sense of all this mess, not to attack you.
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I am a bit mystified as to what I am seeing occuring here on these forums. I have not been here that long, but lately it seems as thought folks are more into proving each other wrong and themselves right than they are for helping each other to heal. Who the hell cares who was the director at the time? Who cares who was the executive staff? or the Senior staff? What is more important is how it all affected each of us, not how we can blame others. I personally am not here to pass judgement on staff or others in the program..........we already did that while we were in group. Lest we forget.
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Cecile, as time passes you may find yourself wondering different things. I know I have since I first began exploring my Straight years. Be patient.
If you did long term non-compliance in the program, drasticly different memories remain than a person winging it out in 11 months.
As somebody who split off 2nd,3rd,4th&4th phases over personal morality issues with the program's abusiveness, I find the answers very interesting.
When you remember a sadist in your dreams for 20 years, it isn't always easy to see him or her here.....
Bill
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OK, So where does Ralph Treciokas fit in at Atlanta. he told me he was dispatched to Atlanta to fix some problems for a couple weeks. Is that what really happened. Only answer if you KNOW. Thanks, MG8
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One of the most difficult things about online discussions is the lack of contextual clues to indicate intent, emotion, attitude, concern, reproach, disgust, confusion, and a full range of human emotions.
Let me be perfectly clear, I have neither the inclination nor the time to indict, impune, accuse, discredit, deflate, or in any other way intentionally offend anyone who posts here.
There is no doubt in my mind that we all remember the same issues differently, our access to information was/is limited severely and with intent. Our viewpoints are all differnent and each of them is valid.We have all heard rumours, we have all blocked out memories, and speaking for myself- I have likely remembered some things in ways that make them easier to cope with today.
I understand that emotions run high, especially for people who are just coming to the 'surface' and beginning to escape a cult induced personality. For my own part, I had a complete nervous breakdown, hopsitalized myself, and continue in therapy today a year and a half after I first posted to this forum.
If I post something that runs counter to another persons memory, or perception, it is not an attack, that is what we did in the cult, and what I most certainly try to avoid today. Rather, my posts are here as a contribution, an attempt to share what I can recall, with the hope that together we can eventually form a collective and accurate understanding of what happened, who it happened to, who executed the actions, and who was or is responsible for the nightmare.
I own my own actions, I took steps in the bathroom that were wrong, and I have fully admitted what I did, to the best of my ability to recall it. However, outside of that event, I did not torture newcomers, I did not deny people food, I made conscious and concerted efforts to help people, in the best way I knew how at the time. The fact that my intentions were good, does not exhonerate me, anymore than it does any of us who ended up either on staff or in our upper phases carrying out the orders of those above us.
I have a clear memory of the day when Dave Buttermer left the staff. It was extremely emotional for the group, people were crying profusely- there was a special rap that night and MR. B led it. He told us lots of bullshit, and he was gone. This occured sometime in 1984 to the best of my memory.
My Sister went and worked for him at a local girls school after he left the staff. I cannot recall what she did there, but she was still on her phases- on fourth I think.
Mr. Tilly served as an executive prior to my entry in Dec 83, this information came from Alan Brown, and he returned sometime after Buttermer left. There was a short period when we had no director, and I think the Helen Morton, Ann Crow, and Maria Milnichuck(sp?) collectively operated the program during that period.
When Mr. Tilly returned to staff the character of the program grew progressively more abusive and aggressive. I do not in anyway mean to say that Dave Buttermer was a 'good guy' or that his reign of terror was any better than anyone elses.
At some point under Mr. Tilly Kris's Parents began to serve as an intake co-ordinator, and staff psychiatrist. After Kris's mom or along with her, Jane Culinane also served as an intake co-ordinator.
There is every possibility that my memory is blurred and confused with 19 years between then and now.
I take eveything I read here with a GIANT grain of salt. I try to approach everthing that I read with the attitude that each of is operating with the best information we have at hand, but that we are also operating with limited access to a 'big picture' that might be available to someone like Ann Crow, or Dave B, or even Mr. Tilly.
I patently refuse to take deep or personal offense to anything that people have to say, but I will continue express myself as best I can, in the continued hope that my words can somehow heal a few of the wounds I might have inflicted, both on others and myself.
This all breaks down to a large degree when someone anonomously posts the old 'grow up move on and suck it up' bullshit. But I try my best to simply ignore that, or at least respond with some compassion.
As far as the bathroom incident goes- to date I am the only person posting here who was in the room, and I don't hold that title with any distinction or pride. I will burst forth with joy is someone else who was in the room can enlighten me about what I have blocked out or forgotten. I will also remain firm in my conviction that we did not draw blood, nor did we break any bones, although that is no badge of courage to my eyes.
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To be exact, I "winged it out" in 11 months,15 days and roughly 22 hours, hell, I still had 2 months to prepare for my 14th birthday. You're exactly right I should surely be over it by now. Ya'll have been a wonderful help!!!!!
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How could you not remember her. So CRAM 737 who are you ? I remember Donny Kincaid. He went in to the misbehavors hall of fame on the first ballot...
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On 2002-10-21 20:52:00, Tampa survivor wrote:
Cecile, as time passes you may find yourself wondering different things. I know I have since I first began exploring my Straight years. Be patient.
If you did long term non-compliance in the program, drasticly different memories remain than a person winging it out in 11 months.
As somebody who split off 2nd,3rd,4th&4th phases over personal morality issues with the program's abusiveness, I find the answers very interesting.
When you remember a sadist in your dreams for 20 years, it isn't always easy to see him or her here.....
Bill
Bill, for what it is worth, I was not a in and out in 11 months person. I spent 18 months in hell. I was lied to about being in there under court order, and made a drastic, dramatic effort to get out. As for my above post, I was in no way trying to be offensive, but rather to seek out the real issues at hand, rather than to see 2 people hashing it out over who is right. It seems like a sensless waste of further energy to me. And, for what it is worth, the two who were disagreeing were not sadistic enemies. To my knowledge there were no grudges against one another, so why start one now over whose memory is correct?
Cecile
[ This Message was edited by: Majiktrvls on 2002-10-25 20:52 ]
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Enough made the comment: "I have a clear memory of the day when Dave Buttermer left the staff. It was extremely emotional for the group, people were crying profusely- there was a special rap that night and MR. B led it. He told us lots of bullshit, and he was gone. This occured sometime in 1984 to the best of my memory."
Now I'm confused. And I mean nothing accusatory when I say this, but was the man's name not "Dennis Buttimer" not Dave? (I may be butchering the last name, but his first name was Dennis. Are we talking about the same person? Dark-haired arrogant prick with a stupid looking moustache?
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Yes, Wayeast.......His name was Dennis and he had the stupid mustache.......kindof goes along with the Hitler mustache........both were both very arrogant pigs.
Majik
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Cecile said "I am a bit mystified as to what I am seeing occuring here on these forums. I have not been here that long, but lately it seems as thought folks are more into proving each other wrong and themselves right than they are for helping each other to heal."
Cecile, I thought your post was a general
comment upon the forums and the posts tendency to be adversarial at times. Yeah, well they will be in any functional group setting.
My reference to sadists dwelling in the dreams was a general comment who anyone who has fear at the thought of a particular staff/oldcomer and how THOSE are the memories which were suppressed first and fade last.
Bill
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I guess what I don't understand is that cram737 said he clearly remembered "Dave" Buttimer leaving. How could you remember it clearly, but not remember that the guy's name was Dennis? Maybe this was a typo and you were thinking of Dave Tilley. Is that it?
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I was in the Program in 87-89. Uhm....wasn't it actually in Austelle though? Be good guys!
Michael
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It was at:
2221 Austell Rd Sw
Marietta, GA 30008-4194
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On 2002-10-19 23:54:00, enough wrote:
"Let me clarify some of this-
I was the only staff-trainee in the bathroom the entire day.There were four or five guys brought in over different periods of time.
NO bones were broken and NO blood was spilled while I was in there. Period. Whoever claims there was is repeating a rumour and talking without direct knowledge.
One kid had his head dunked in the toilet one time, that was Bob Ambrose, the youngest of the brothers. And although I was in the room when it happened, I stopped it after one dunk, because I had begun to realize that it was wrong at about that point.
We did make physical contact with clients that day, but no one was beaten, so to speak, we poked them in the chest, pushed them against walls. Frankly many many people were treated worse in open group, hundreds of times.
The stuff that happened in there was wrong no doubt, but it was by no means a license to beat people as some may have told you. Mostly we screamed and yelled and humliated people in a intense envronment similar to a boot camp.
Mr. Tilly was the exec in charge then, and I have no idea if he was specifically aware of what was happening while it happened.
Monty Bingham is the Sr. Staffer that told me to take a list of people into the bathroom and do 'whatever it fucking takes, I don't care, but make them change'
He was also in the office the next day with Kris and others, all of the execs, while I was confronted for what happened. Ironically, the primary arguement against me was that this was not how I had been treated. I agreed, not having the nerve to tell the truth, that I had been treated as bad or worse- I was threatened with a gun as a newcomer, sexually molested as a newcomer, and had to ask for permision each time I wiped my ass in one home, just to mention a few things.
To my knowledge only one other person was set back- Rob was dropped to a fourth phase refrsher as I was. Most of the rest were confronted heavily in group, but I do not remember any of them being set back. I took full responsibility for what happened, except for Rob, who I believe was set back because he admitted leading the charge to dunk Bob's head in the toilet. Not that it makes it any better, but the toilet did not, as some have claimed, have any shit or piss in it at the time.
Mr. Tilly did leave the program shortly after I did, though whether he was fired or not I have no idea.
If it makes you feel better, I have spent 19 years living with nightmares almost daily that include the events in the bathroom. I can't hold a job, never went to school, am extremely uncomfortable around children, self medicated for the better part of 19 years, I have signifacant health issues because of the stress involved and the degree of self-loathing I feel, even as I write this I find myself wishing that I would simply die to escape the reality of what those bastards turned me into.
I have attempted suicide multiple times, I have commited myself at least twice, and to this day, I regularly consider suicide, and have to call my therapist and talk it out.
I have stress related back problems that are directly related to these events, I have been hospitalized twice in the past five years because of the pain.
I do not live a happy life, I live a life in which I can not fall assleep, I mostly end up sleeping in the daylight, and only after being awake for 24-36 hours at a time. I dream of home invasions by former clients who come to kill me, and I often wake up screaming and covered in sweat.
I was beaten up by a former client outside a bowling alley in 1986. He knocked me out cold and then spent some time hitting me in the face and stomach before I recovered enough to flag down a cop. He made it clear that he felt I was to blame for anything that happened to him because I was a ficking staff trainee- in reality I was jsut as affraid and compliant as anyone elee, and I had little or no power at all.
I moved around from state to state and home to home for a long time without filing a change of address form, for fear that the program or former clients were hunting me down to kill me.
As damaging as these events were to Bob, or to others that were brought into the bathroom that day, they were just as damaging to me, and I suspect to any of the fifth phasers that were in there.
So hate me if you want, if it makes you feel better. But do it for the truth, and not over some rumour that spread over the years and grew into something that simply is not true.
There were similar events in the girls bathroom, I do not know who was involved and I have no idea what became of it. I withdrew from the program within two days of these events.
There is no way in any sense that I should have ever been left alone in the bathroom in that environment. I was a trainee, and as such I was expendable and a good scapegoat.
The program was by its very nature and design abuseive to everyone who was admitted. It was the very core of the program to humilate people and make them feel intense emotions of guilt and shame, and that was part of the modality far before Straight adopted it- as far back as the 1950's under the name Synanon, and before that as a thought reform process developed in China and Korean POW camps.
The only person to blame is Melvin Sembler, he was the driving force, he knew how the modality worked, and according to former members of board of directors, he was determined to avoid any kind of legitmate medical assesments prior to admission- fro mthe very start.
Everyone who was brought in was brainwashed, from exec's like Ann Crow whose own children when through the program, all the way down the group staff. Sure some people were more comfortable than others with the modality, but then all people are different and some people enjoy power.
Personally I think the Callum kid, who was turned into a walking bruise after breaking helen Mortons Jaw- was treated worse than jsut about anyone in the Atlanta group between 83-85.
I can never getr rid of the image of him being arrested outside that day, literally covered in bruises- and charged with felony battery- while those who had beaten him went scott free. But then the program had some kind of political connection with the sherriff of cobb county at the time, as well as local judges in their pocket.
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Let me clarify....Part of this is a Goddamn lie. Dennis Buttimer was executive staff. People did get physically hurt. Heads did get shoved into toilets and flushed. And as far as this whiney ass feel sorry for yourself ( I hope you die, rott and burn in hell. I know this post is old and I hope you're still lurking out there. And Dave Tilly came after Buttimer because Buttimer was either fired or quit.
Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes hurtling down the highway.
Andrew Tannenbaum
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I have no info on the "bathroom incident" because I left in '82, but Dave Tilley was the head honcho and Dennis Buttimer was executive staff, presumably reporting to Tilley. So Tilley couldn't have come after Buttimer left.
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Hi Matt - I was there in 1990. You still in the atlanta area?
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bump
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Bump answered: I was in ATL from early 82 until split off successfully (5th time is the charm baby) for Christmas of 1982.
Live in Tampa, my hometown now.
Who am I still wondering about? Travis/Jay Crow. Mason and his brother, Vanessa the lil blonde, Tracy Sparks, ignored my message on FB so I guess she is alive lol>
Did anybody ever beat the dogshit out of Chris Byrd?
I know his mom trying to catche me in the kudzu was moment to remember...