Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Anonymous on October 02, 2003, 09:01:00 AM
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http://www.sltrib.com/2003/Oct/10022003/utah/97894.asp (http://www.sltrib.com/2003/Oct/10022003/utah/97894.asp)
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SANTAN is marching on!
Joseph Smith was a fraud.
The Godmakers should be made into a movie to share the true story of self proclaimed Joseph Smith and friends. (NOT a prophet!)
The Evil is endless......
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So What??? Do you have some repressed anger towards someone who was Mormon. Live and Let live.
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:wave: Thanks for the info. Loved the book I'm sure the movie will be great!!!
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I agree with anon no.3 what's with the need to bash another religion??? There are alot of people in this world, do you really think we would all agree on one religion? Why not take the energy you use towards bashing the Mormons and do whatever you do in your religion or beliefs. You know, read the bible, help a neighbor, whatever. You might be happier.
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[ This Message was edited by: imo on 2004-01-06 08:20 ]
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Karen, aren't you the one that pulled your child from a wwasps program because you had major issues with Mormons? You seem to change your story at the drop of a hat...what is this all about? You're so all over the "board" so to speak. I have never heard you say you had Mormon friends - I can't even imagine you'd be in the same room with them without saying something negative about their faith. You freaked out because you son said he was given a Mormon bible to read. There's a whole big world out there, and reading a Mormon bible, Jewish, Buddhist, etc., is education, not conversion.
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I'm very happy.
Joseph Smith was,is an evil fraud.
I don't give Mormons a second thought.
The idea of the religion is a waste of my time.
Any thing evil is not worth my time.
The people who have been duped by the big lie must deal with that themselves.
My experience with my paternal Mormon relatives was one of hyprocrisy and unkindness. Very judgemental.I know what I experienced.
I don't do any organized religion.
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I know how you feel. I had to pull my son from a private school that was run by an independent Baptist group. All of the literature and text books were written by Bob Jones'ers. Even though the public schools in the area weren't much good, it was better to get an education in a more tolerant environment and be introduced to American and English literature even if they might contain something that didn't fit their narrow view of the world.
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"I don't do any organized religion."
I agree. All organized religions are about to be revealed for what they truly are. In my opinion there is only one law: "Love one another"
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Karen Z Wrote: "I didn't pull my son b/c of 'the Mormon thing' - I pulled him b/c of a lack of individual thought; and the blind trust of the program parents on the BBS - along with concerns about the cold, distance attitude the 'long time' program parents seemed to develop towards their kids. Its been a learning process ever sence."
Just for clarification on the "mormon thing", though one of their schools is in Utah, they are not allowed in anyway shape or form to talk about their religion to students. If the students choose to have bible study for their own religions, there are groups for them to join. Could be Mormon, Jewish, Muslim, etc., whatever, they are free to do that from what I've learned.
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KarenZ I am a different anonymous than the ones above. I have no idea who you are or anything about the program mentioned. However I have been in two other programs about 13 years ago. I am just curious, why you are so intent on bashing the Mormon religion? Do you do that with all religions that you do not agree with. I do happen to be a Mormon and I am not sure where you have gotten your information but it is false. I have never been forbidden to do anything. We all have free agency. I have never felt judged, in fact all I have ever felt in the church is loved. I'm not saying every person has had my experience because let's face it we are all a bunch of people and people make mistakes. I am curious, did you have a bad experience or something with a Mormon? I am not looking to get into a specific debate about what you heard about Mormons and how I can prove this or that or you can prove this or that, I truly am ok with people beleiving whatever they want. My best friend is Muslim and I would never think of trying to convert her or debate with her about religion. I love her and she is truly a wonderful person. Like one of the other anonymous' wrote, there are so many people in this world how could you possibly think we would all agree on one religion? Also I really am curious do you post about all other religions that you disagree with in this manner? Or just Mormons? and why?
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[ This Message was edited by: imo on 2004-01-06 08:21 ]
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Karen and Deborah are very vocal about their prejudices:
http://www.fornits.baremetal.com/wwf/vi ... forum=9&14 (http://www.fornits.baremetal.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=2924&forum=9&14)
http://www.fornits.baremetal.com/wwf/vi ... 25&forum=9 (http://www.fornits.baremetal.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=2825&forum=9)
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Oh, great! Open invitation to get them on their soapbox again... ::soapbox::
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::soapbox:: "
Too Funny!!!!! :nworthy:
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[ This Message was edited by: imo on 2004-01-06 08:21 ]
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Karen - remember "two wrongs don't make a right"
Sounds like you're having a "DEVIL" of a good time bashing whoever, or whatever, fits your rollercoaster mood swings. :eek:
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KarenZ wrote: "So - there my Mormon friend - I just bashed some Baptist for you."
Friend?? You bashed a Baptist for YOU and nobody else.
Your son was "being indoctrinated into Mormonism" at Dundee? I suppose if you heard it from your troubled son and other's it must be true? NOT! :wstupid:
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KarenZ, it's me again the curious Mormon. What is WWASP?? I also wanted to answer your question about being forbidden to read things and will I and do I really want to know. Sure I do. I actually grew up Catholic and my whole family is Catholic. When I became an adult I decided I wanted to learn about all religions and see for myself what I beleived. I studied religion in school and attended different religious churches with some of my friends. I went to the Jewish temple and to several nondenominational churches, the Baptist church, the Lutheran Church, the Methodist church and some charasmatic church. I finally went to the Mormon church. It was weird, as soon as some of the people at the other churches I was going to found out I visited the Mormon church they gave me every pamphlet imaginable against the Mormon Church. It freaked me out. I read everything. I didn't understand why they didn't freak out about any other church. The Christians never said a thing about me going to the Jewish temple. Anyways, I obviously studied up prayed hard and the rest is history. I have always been kind of shocked when people say some other religion is evil and try to explain why and sound mad about it. That is why I asked if you had a bad experience with someone who was Mormon. I was just trying to understand why you wrote what you did. I guess I am lucky that I grew up in a family that has religious tolerance. My parents come to church with my family when my daughter sings and we go to their church when my Dad speaks. They are very Catholic and we are very Mormon.
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On 2003-10-02 21:55:00, Anonymous wrote:
"KarenZ, it's me again the curious Mormon. What is WWASP?? I also wanted to answer your question about being forbidden to read things and will I and do I really want to know. Sure I do. I actually grew up Catholic and my whole family is Catholic. When I became an adult I decided I wanted to learn about all religions and see for myself what I beleived. I studied religion in school and attended different religious churches with some of my friends. I went to the Jewish temple and to several nondenominational churches, the Baptist church, the Lutheran Church, the Methodist church and some charasmatic church. I finally went to the Mormon church. It was weird, as soon as some of the people at the other churches I was going to found out I visited the Mormon church they gave me every pamphlet imaginable against the Mormon Church. It freaked me out. I read everything. I didn't understand why they didn't freak out about any other church. The Christians never said a thing about me going to the Jewish temple. Anyways, I obviously studied up prayed hard and the rest is history. I have always been kind of shocked when people say some other religion is evil and try to explain why and sound mad about it. That is why I asked if you had a bad experience with someone who was Mormon. I was just trying to understand why you wrote what you did. I guess I am lucky that I grew up in a family that has religious tolerance. My parents come to church with my family when my daughter sings and we go to their church when my Dad speaks. They are very Catholic and we are very Mormon."
There was an article in People magazine last week about this renegade Mormon group in Arizona still practicing plural marriages. What kind of lunacy is this, little girls marrying men old enough to be their father? Thank God the governor and attorney general in Utah is actively trying to stop this by prosecuting the perps in their own state (and Arizona) but let's face it, this is the kind of victimization and exploitation that
can rightfully be considered as the work of the DEVIL, himself.
:flame:
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Those people might call themselves Mormons but they are not. They are not recognized by the church as Mormon's either. They can call themselves whatever they want but clearly anyone who does anything like that is evil. I agree. It is hard for me to think of anything worse than hurting an innocent child like that.
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Here's an excerpt from the article in PEOPLE magazine. Be sure and click on the link if you are interested in learning more or would like to help in some way. As I recall, Colorado City is on the border of Arizona and Southern Utah.
Issue dated October 6, 2003
? In God's Name
After years of neglect, the law takes a hard look at Colorado City, Ariz., a sect-run town where old men marry teenage girls, TV is banned, and polygamy runs rampant. To find out more about Colorado City, and the plight of the women who live there, go to the site for the organization, Help the Child Brides.
http://www.helpthechildbrides.com (http://www.helpthechildbrides.com)
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Let the law and government take care of the abusers. Or find where those that got away are, and help them build a new life as "real" Mormons.
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Anybody that is interested in the Mormon religion, and specifically the plight of the CHILD BRIDES, should read this just-published book called UNDER THE BANNER OF HEAVEN: A STORY OF VIOLENT FAITH by Jon Krakauer. Here is a review from Amazon that more or less captures the essence of the book.
Reviewer: colts_19 (see more about me) from Roseville, CA United States
I have always enjoyed Krakauer's work, especially Into the Wild, which is the tragic story about a young man who loses himself in trying to become another Thoreau, another Tolstoy. Krakauer takes on a much more vast subject area: Religious fanaticism in general, and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints specifically. Krakauer brings his usual writing prowess to the story to make it an engrossing study of America's homegrown religion with disturbing parallels between the religion's past and present and ultimately makes it plainly obvious that the Fundamentalist offshoots of Mormonism are closer to Joseph Smith's own dream for the religion. This granted, where does that leave the current Mormon church?
Some Mormons might flinch at the parallels that are drawn here. But Krakauer repeatedly states that he is not a Christian with a vendetta, but an agnostic who studied historical documents and drew parallels in a journalistic manner. His book is evenhanded in the sense that he seems to think that Mormons are good people, the 'salt of the earth', but he has uncovered some very unsettling information that must be heard. I can understand why a Mormon would cringe after reading some of the book, but nevertheless Krakauer is supported by plenty of documentation.
Basically, the narrative is told in three intersecting stories. The first has to to with the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and the lives they lead inside large cities dominated by patriarchs who usually have in excess of seventy wives. Next is the story of the violent formation of the Mormon Church in the mid-nineteenth century, where we are introduced to such Mormon immortals as Joseph Smith and his first wife, Emma, Brigham Young, John Taylor, and others who formed the church. This part is meticulously researched and has a few facts that throw doubt onto some church doctrines, notably the infamous prophecy that authorized polygamy by noting that Smith was a womanizer that had been accused of having illicit affairs with pubescent girls. This is also the tale of a scorned group of misfits who were attacked at nearly every place they settled, people who come across as very sympathetic. Finally, the third is about two brothers, Ron and Dan Lafferty, who embraced the Fundamentalist values preached by Joseph Smith but deprecated by the modern LDS church. Especially haunting are the interviews with Dan Lafferty, a very rational man who has no remorse for what he has done. When Ron thinks that God tells him to kill his sister-in-law and Dan goes along with it, they end up showing the depths that such fanaticism can go. In a world that seems to be filling up with these kinds of people, it is important to note how this sort or mind works.
In short, this is a multilayered, complex look at the country's fastest-growing religion. It is also a harrowing journey into the darkest depths of the human soul. Regardless of your religion, this is a cautionary tale of what happens when ideas like Fundamentalism can take over someone's mind.
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Yes, one man's opinion. His interpretation of things. Just because he wrote it, that doesn't mean it's the truth. It is better to study things yourself than to go on someone elses intrepretation. Hey, why not go visit the church yourself. Visitors are welcome anytime!!! :wave:
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Another book just released:
KEYSTONE OF MORMONISM
To read excerpts, click here:
http://www.keystonebooks.com/?source=adwords (http://www.keystonebooks.com/?source=adwords)
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On 2003-10-02 23:35:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Another book just released:
KEYSTONE OF MORMONISM
To read excerpts, click here:
http://www.keystonebooks.com/?source=adwords (http://www.keystonebooks.com/?source=adwords)"
Here is a brief summary of what the book is about.
"The Keystone of Mormonism is a definitive analysis of The Book of Mormon. It is scholarly and yet surprisingly readable. More than 600 references present convincing evidence that The Book of Mormon is not ancient American history but nineteenth century fiction. The Keystone of Mormonism also contains a personal account of the author's struggle to overcome his childhood indoctrination and to resist powerful social pressures for him to remain loyal to Mormonism".
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Hi Mormon Anon - You had asked who WWASPS is. Acronym for the Worldwide Association of Specialty Programs and Schools. They oversee privately owned results based behavior modification programs. Nice to see you haven't been poisoned by the press or this board, at least not yet!
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On 2003-10-02 23:49:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Hi Mormon Anon - You had asked who WWASPS is. Acronym for the Worldwide Association of Specialty Programs and Schools. They oversee privately owned results based behavior modification programs. Nice to see you haven't been poisoned by the press or this board, at least not yet! "
To the anon Mormons:
Personally, I think it is important to understand the influence of Mormonism upon the owners and operators of these programs for troubled teens, so many of which are based in Utah. Hopefully, this thread will evolve into an honest, open discussion that helps to broaden awareness while at the same time encouraging tolerance for different opinions and points-of-view.
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Yes, why is it that so many of these programs are homegrown in Utah?
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http://www.utlm.org/ (http://www.utlm.org/)
http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/ ... nt=1028RNF (http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/cms_content/97887790?page=39828&segment=1&sp=1028&insert=77172&event=1028RNF)
?The Mormon Murders?; by Steven Naifeh & Gregory White Smith
Its out of print and so hard to find - but it can be done with a little persistence, and is worth the effort.
[ This Message was edited by: imo on 2004-01-06 08:22 ]
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its perfectly possible to be Jewish and Christian at the same time
W H A T ?
That is crazy. Jews do not beleive that Christ is the "savior." Jews do not beleive in the New Testament. They beleive that Christ was a prophet like many of the other prophets that have come and gone.
Christians beleive that Christ is the savior. Christians believe in the New Testament. They do not believe that Christ was a prohet. They believe that Christ is the Son of God. They believe in the Holy Trinity.
Christians do believe that the Jews are God's chosen people and that many have and will convert to Christianity now and in the end times. But it is not possible to be Jewish and Christian at the same time.
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KarenZ You are very mistaken about your info. on Mormons. We beleive we are Christians. We also beleive everyone who beleives Christ is our savior is also Christian. I am the one going to the Mormon church every Sunday for 3 hours. Most of what we talk about is the atonement and the ultimate sacrifice our Savior Jesus Christ the son of the living God has made for us. Your information is very,very wrong. I am curious if you put as much time and effort into finding out about your own religion as you do spreading lies about others. Sorry, I am usually pretty patient but I am done here on this site. Don't bother responding. I hope you find peace in your life. The Anon Mormon (used to be curious, not anymore)
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More on this topic in this thread:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=2825&forum=9 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=2825&forum=9)
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[ This Message was edited by: imo on 2004-01-06 08:23 ]
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[ This Message was edited by: imo on 2004-01-06 08:23 ]
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On 2003-10-03 09:27:00, Anonymous wrote:
"its perfectly possible to be Jewish and Christian at the same time
W H A T ?
That is crazy. Jews do not beleive that Christ is the "savior." Jews do not beleive in the New Testament. They beleive that Christ was a prophet like many of the other prophets that have come and gone.
Christians beleive that Christ is the savior. Christians believe in the New Testament. They do not believe that Christ was a prohet. They believe that Christ is the Son of God. They believe in the Holy Trinity.
Christians do believe that the Jews are God's chosen people and that many have and will convert to Christianity now and in the end times. But it is not possible to be Jewish and Christian at the same time. "
What the HELL are you talking about? As a Jew I am very offended by your apparent lack of knowledge about the Jewish religion. Until you have any idea of what the Jews believe, please don't go around saying it! 95% of your information was ungodly incorrect....
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Call and ask them if they are no longer Jewish now that they have recognized their Messiah.
Karen, they are of Jewish descent. But they are Christians. Big difference!
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Just as I thought - Karen and Deborah are at it again! What's funny is that Karen and Deborah say things about WWASPS too that they have no personal knowledge of, Deborah none, Karen very little and what she does say is based on her own bias, just like her religious persecution/attacks. Yes, they are attacks disgused as "information from the net."
And again:
::soapbox::
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Check out Paul St. John's Thread on the Have You Read It Forum - Really fascinating stuff!
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The Angry Man
The other day I chanced to meet
An angry man upon the street -
A man of wrath, a man of war,
A man who truculently bore
Over his shoulder, like a lance,
A banner labeled ?Tolerance.?
And when I asked him why he strode
Thus scowling down the human road,
Scowling, he answered, ?I am he
who champions total liberty -
Intolerance being, Ma?am, a state
No tolerant man can tolerate.
When I meet rogues,? he cried, ?Who choose
To cherish oppositional views,
Lady, like this, and in this manner,
I lay about me with my banner
Till they cry mercy, ma?am.? His blows
Rained proudly on prospective foes.
Fearful, I turned and left him there
Still muttering, as he thrashed the air,
?Let the Intolerant beware!?
Phyllis Mc Ginely
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The more you write the more I realize you hardley know a thing about the Mormons. The last thing you wrote about more than one God and a different Christ way, way off. You are a liar. And obviously have some crazy unresolved issues. If you get your info. from other peoples intreperation of what they beleive Mormons are you are never going to know the truth. Maybe that is what you are really scared of. Was it your paternal family that was Mormon that you have your resentments towards. Get some counseling :exclaim:
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Anon: Don't waste your time, like the Anon on the top of this page said, she is bias and disgused her religious attacks as "information from the net." Most of us just ignore her. :silly:
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I have no resentment at all; I am not the least bit mad at Mormons, and I am not making this stuff up.
Every bit of what I've explained here is just Mormon history and or doctrin, excepting what I stated as my opinion. It does not come from what other people *think* about Mormonism - but from Joseph Smith and Bringham Young; their words and deeds.
You needn?t take my word for it. I did what I could to provide you with the resources to learn as much as your willing to learn. If you wish to continue blindly on, then be my guest. I have no objection.
You wrote://The (http://wrote://The) last thing you wrote about more than one God and a different Christ way, way off.//
I didn't write that. It came from questions and answers for Mormons.
Again, I?ll say;
But the history of the faith ought not be ignored to avoid upsetting those who are members, both fair and foul. Most especially, it ought not be ignored by its members.
And:
All this having been said - I Love my Mormon friends, and I Love Utah. But for the Love of them, I can?t call the great lie true; or pretend its a benign non issue.
[ This Message was edited by: imo on 2004-01-06 08:24 ]
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http://www.utlm.org/testimony/davemctestimony.htm (http://www.utlm.org/testimony/davemctestimony.htm)
A WAY WHICH SEEMETH RIGHT:
My Experience in Mormonism
by David A. McCament
Testimony Hyperlinks
I. Setting the Stage - II. Converting - III. Later-day Life - IV. The Unexpected - V. Beneath the Surface - VI. Looking in Utah - VII. Surrendering - VIII. No Reason to Doubt - IX. Cost of the Cross - X. Conclusion in Christ
I don't know why the links aren't working - just thought I'd try and post them again.
[ This Message was edited by: imo on 2004-01-06 08:25 ]
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just like WWASP as time brings more light to Mormanism they will react in a very defensive way.
They are nice/faithful people but in my opinion very deceived.
...there is a deceiving spirit of Morani and Mormanism is a destortion of Christianity and a cult....add to that a business plan to ake over the world according to the book "The Morman Corporate Culture"
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annon Morman...
there is delieverence from deception and the Spirit Morani...if you want it...but I wouldn't look to a Morman counselor for it.
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That is your opinion, that someone who is Mormon needs deliverance. Others might say it is you that needs deliverance. Also, it is Moroni not Morani. You may not know everything you think you do. Not that there is anything wrong with that. :wave:
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I worked with a bunch of these people (mormons). I'm not biased against religion, but this is something more than fanaticism. These people abuse women, spy on their parisioners and the men believe they will be kings in the after-life, so they act like gods now - They love to work for WWASP Programs and CEDU because what they love most is power and control. What it amounts to is tyranny - I've not, in the past, believed in hell or the antichrist, but I'm beginning to think these people have been lured into the clutched of something evil. Keep an eye on this bunch and beware. :wave:
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On 2003-10-10 18:06:00, Roy wrote:
"I worked with a bunch of these people (mormons). I'm not biased against religion, but this is something more than fanaticism. These people abuse women, spy on their parisioners and the men believe they will be kings in the after-life, so they act like gods now - They love to work for WWASP Programs and CEDU because what they love most is power and control. What it amounts to is tyranny - I've not, in the past, believed in hell or the antichrist, but I'm beginning to think these people have been lured into the clutched of something evil. Keep an eye on this bunch and beware. :nworthy:
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interesting..I was able to get you to admit to the spirit...so what's up with Moroni..what's the draw to this evil spirit for you?
or do you think this is a "good"spirit?
what is delieverance anyway and how do you get it? :wave:
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anyone who wants an extremely readable, completely accurate and well documented account of Mormonism, get a copy of "The God Makers."
http://www.tbcorders.org/default.asp (http://www.tbcorders.org/default.asp)
[ This Message was edited by: imo on 2004-01-06 08:26 ]
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I'm not sure what you "annon" are talking about. But, suffice it to say that I am more of the Eastern (pantheist)mindset "god and nature/ universe are one and the same." So, not being a dualist, the notion of a seperate spirit comes as without evidence - but I'm always willing to entertain the notion where empirical data is concerned. I will say that I have not ruled out "spirit" as you call it. I could have you talk with my wife though - she would agree wholeheartedly with you being a quaker and all. But, she also entertains the non-dualist notion as a likely valid hypothisis.
As far a mormons are concerned, remember that I said the people have perhaps fallen onto something ... evil. I am referring to the organized power structure only - not individuals. By "evil" I mean a constructed social reality of CONTROL and POWER. I did not mean to impose any other definition, nor, do I belive that my definition is necessarily the right definition or the only one - all is hypothisis. Yours is fine too. :smile:
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Roy... do you have any connection with WWASP....?
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Correct, except they think they are going to be Gods in the after life, not kings and act like that now. This is from an ex-mormon, who voluntarily withdrew her membership.
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What happened to living the United States and practicing your faith without persecution? This reminds me of growing up Black in the 50's!
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On 2003-10-12 12:57:00, Anonymous wrote:
"What happened to living the United States and practicing your faith without persecution? This reminds me of growing up Black in the 50's! "
I completly agree with you. There is plenty of persecution going on here and it is disgusting. I don't care if I agree with a religion or not I personally would never tell people they were part of some great lie or something evil etc.. Who am I to judge? Even if I think I am right I choose not to judge others because I do not want to be judged. And yes, there is a difference between stating your opinion and judging someone.
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On 2003-10-12 09:10:00, KarenZ wrote:
"Anon who asks : what is deliverance anyway and how do you get it?
I'd very much enjoy delving into this with you -but this isn't the place for it. If you want to write, please feel free.
http://www.tbcorders.org/default.asp (http://www.tbcorders.org/default.asp)
I have been so tempted to quote it, but it is all so well written and important to the subject, I can't dicide which paragraphs to quote, and might end up writing whole chapters!
If your Mormon, you really owe it to yourself and your loved ones, to read this book. I'll go so far as to order and pay for it, if you'd promise to read it. Just write me at the address given.
"
Ok, so you will chew apart another religion but you won't talk about yours because, "it's just not the place for it" Or maybe you just don't want to be subject to religious persecution.
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I'm going to read the book since I don/t pretend to understand the religion very well - its just that what I've seen of it so far turns me off to it.
Asking me to be more precise is a valid request. I would say that I dislike the Kings and/or Gods concept, but mostly I dislike the reproducion of children on a scale that would appear to be exploitive of the earth. I believe large families produce still larger numbers of children that consume scarce resources faster than they can be renewed - causing the less fornunate to starve. Also, I believe that this is unethical in a world where many have little or nothing. Further, the whole notion of kings in the afterlife (but not women) is a repugnant as the origonal statement by that Mormon prophet fellow (what's his name?) that blacks are the "seeds of satan." I know, he withdrew this statement after a prophetic vision, but a lot of people in the South had the same "vision" a bit to late. Call me judgemental of this religion. I am, (and this is definately a judgement), not a problem to me. I see this Mormon (LDS) movement as cultish, unethical, controlling, and power hungry, But,I defend your right to believe in it and defend the right to practice it. I would just recomend not subjucating women, admitting to past subjigation of minorities, current of gays , accountability for interfering in the private lives of your belivers, and, environmantal responsibity per reproduction -- i.e. birth control.
Most of all, I would suggest a more open intelectual tradition that is inclusive of more scientific dialouge and free thought on issues such as modern astronomy, particle physics, quantum mechanics and biological evolution.
But, we all have the right to believe and practice as we choose. We don't, however, have the right to expect or demand the silence of critics such as myself. I don't care for religious fundamentalism in general, I'm not ashamed of saying so, and, I have as much right to say so as you do to knock on my door and try to sell me your cultish social control. I have enjoyed the dialouge. Thank you
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[ This Message was edited by: imo on 2004-01-06 08:27 ]
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On 2003-10-12 20:28:00, KarenZ wrote:
"Anon writes: //Ok, so you will chew apart another religion but you won't talk about yours because, "it's just not the place for it" Or maybe you just don't want to be subject to religious persecution.//
I have not chewed apart anything. All I have done, and this is a fact, is state what the founders of the LDS have proclaimed as Truth.
I did, on one post, give an opinion, but admitted it was just that.
When a Mormon anon said they'd like to read up and further their understanding, I made some resources available.
I have been very clear, I have nothing against anyone; and nothing I've written has in any way been persecution. Look up persecution, will ya, if you doubt this.
As for my own faith - there is nothing I enjoy more than a good open minded debate. No one has any doubt of my general leanings; its not something I am secretive about. I've recently been called a Bible thumper somewhere on this Forum. It just isn't a subject appropriate to this forum. This forum is about the teen 'help' industry.
Now Mormonism is - b/c it is so enmeshed with WWASP; And is the subject of this link and a few others.
"
There are something like 11 million Mormons now, not counting the FLDS (fundamentalist latter-day-saints) spread across the U.S., Canada and Mexico where they can practice polygamy with relative immunity from prosecution by the federal government.
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On 2003-10-12 20:28:00, KarenZ wrote:
"Anon writes: //Ok, so you will chew apart another religion but you won't talk about yours because, "it's just not the place for it" Or maybe you just don't want to be subject to religious persecution.//
I have not chewed apart anything. All I have done, and this is a fact, is state what the founders of the LDS have proclaimed as Truth.
I did, on one post, give an opinion, but admitted it was just that.
When a Mormon anon said they'd like to read up and further their understanding, I made some resources available.
I have been very clear, I have nothing against anyone; and nothing I've written has in any way been persecution. Look up persecution, will ya, if you doubt this.
As for my own faith - there is nothing I enjoy more than a good open minded debate. No one has any doubt of my general leanings; its not something I am secretive about. I've recently been called a Bible thumper somewhere on this Forum. It just isn't a subject appropriate to this forum. This forum is about the teen 'help' industry.
Now Mormonism is - b/c it is so enmeshed with WWASP; And is the subject of this link and a few others.
"
Barf!!! What an excuse for posting all that junk. So, you would like a good open minded debate about your religion? Just as open minded as this one??? Ya, right!! By the way do you deny starting this thread as an anonymous?
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An anon asks:
//By the way do you deny starting this thread as an anonymous?//
I certinly do. I never post anonomus except by accedent.
As for the open minded debate - you bet your sweet bippi I would enjoy it - You have my address, lets have at it.
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asking to be taken off the of the church rolls. It had nothing to do with what I have read here...it has everything to do with not believing the mormon speak and beliefs any more. I joined the Mormon church in college. At the time, it did help me to get closer to God than I had ever had been before (I was raised Catholic), but as time went on (16 years), I realized that I believed less and less of the teachings. I put that in my letter to the Bishop adn I let him know my displeasure with the Mormom Church and members support fot the WWASP programs. Writing that letter was really fantastic and gave me a bit of freedom...wish I had written a similar one to that asshole Miller Newton, but since he reads these sites, I am sure he understands my feelings. Go to hell Miller!
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I'm going to read the book since I don/t pretend to understand the religion very well - its just that what I've seen of it so far turns me off to it.
Asking me to be more precise is a valid request. I would say that I dislike the Kings and/or Gods concept, but mostly I dislike the reproducion of children on a scale that would appear to be exploitive of the earth. I believe large families produce still larger numbers of children that consume scarce resources faster than they can be renewed - causing the less fornunate to starve. Also, I believe that this is unethical in a world where many have little or nothing. Further, the whole notion of kings in the afterlife (but not women) is a repugnant as the origonal statement by that Mormon prophet fellow (what's his name?) that blacks are the "seeds of satan." I know, he withdrew this statement after a prophetic vision, but a lot of people in the South had the same "vision" a bit to late. Call me judgemental of this religion. I am, (and this is definately a judgement), not a problem to me. I see this Mormon (LDS) movement as cultish, unethical, controlling, and power hungry, But,I defend your right to believe in it and defend the right to practice it - even that Racist Christian identity crap if you like it. I don't and I think it is more full of crap than Mormonism - so condem me for that religious persecution while you are at it, and, perhaps you will see the illogic of your line of reasioning. It is not the 50's, but a lot of what LDS does is like it. So, I would just recomend not subjucating women, admitting to past subjigation of minorities, current discrimination of gays, even a policy against mastrubation, monitoring the sex lives of ,arried couples, accountability for interfering generally in the private lives of belivers, and, environmantal responsibity per reproduction -- i.e. birth control.
Most of all, I would suggest a more open intelectual tradition that is inclusive of more scientific dialouge and free thought on issues such as modern astronomy, particle physics, quantum mechanics and biological evolution.
But, we all have the right to believe and practice as we choose. We don't, however, have the right to expect or demand the silence of critics such as myself :smile: (free speech). Here is some. "I don't care for religious fundamentalism in general, I'm not ashamed of saying so, and, I have as much right to say so as mormons do to knock on my door and try to sell me that cultish social control crap." :smile:
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I wrote the first piece as annon -- on this thread. But bring on the fire and brimston, the torches and the, hate to Karen - Make her hate. Turn her into a zealot.
No, come after me. Yes I have experienced the tyranny of WWASP. I saw the tyranny in the south with black folks, the tyranny against jewish folks and gays in the northwest and the tyranny in the behavior modification boarding schools by mormon staff. But rememberm we have a rule -"burn the witch" -- then if that was a mistake - burn ROY - the other bible thumper who has the audacity to critisize future Gods.
:silly:
Roy
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so Roy - are you like most yankees and only see the tyranny toward blacks by southern whites? I won't deny that there are white southern bigots and racists (they are not the same thing), but I have seen many bigoted blacks and much bigotry and rascism by northern whites - this includes all above the mason/dixon line and includes the north, midwest and northwest as well.
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Is there a ROY MOSHER in the house..........???? I think sooooooo....
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God Forbid honey-child. Who would dare dis the holy South? No, blow those trumpets; bow down to them pointy hats, grab them bibles and put them there ten commandments back in front of them there courthouses.
Discrimination is even worse toward us poar Godly southern whites, so let's spread them there confederate flags all over the country, wear them uniforms and burn them crosses in honor of that-there poor white man that's been treated so badly by them godless humanist liberals. Oh my, where is my fan. It's so hot honey-child. I just feel so tired. :wstupid:
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Well, I do declare - Ya'll are fixen to rekindle the civil war.
I rekkin? I'll have ta fight fer Dixie. As much trouble as she's always bein', could be, they'll let her go easy like, this time.
Be intrestin? ta see whut side that Yankee Texian comes down on.
Come on folks - how did this degenerate into a North/South thing?
That was me this morning, by accident posting anonymous. Ironic.
Anyway - this is not and has not been about persecution. It is amazing to me that you would view it that way, just from having the basic tenets of the faith explained. It would compare to me feeling persecuted, because of some one saying: The Christians think Jesus Christ is the Way the Truth and the Life.
If you are offended by what Joseph Smith and Brigum Young have said, then maybe you do really need to re-examine your membership - if you are a LDS. If not - then you have insulted them far more than I have by calling their prophet's proclamations "Crap"
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On 2003-10-13 16:59:00, KarenZ wrote:
"Well, I do declare - Ya'll are fixen to rekindle the civil war.
I rekkin? I'll have ta fight fer Dixie. As much trouble as she's always bein', could be, they'll let her go easy like, this time.
Be intrestin? ta see whut side that Yankee Texian comes down on.
Come on folks - how did this degenerate into a North/South thing?
That was me this morning, by accident posting anonymous. Ironic.
Anyway - this is not and has not been about persecution. It is amazing to me that you would view it that way, just from having the basic tenets of the faith explained. It would compare to me feeling persecuted, because of some one saying: The Christians think Jesus Christ is the Way the Truth and the Life.
If you are offended by what Joseph Smith and Brigum Young have said, then maybe you do really need to re-examine your membership - if you are a LDS. If not - then you have insulted them far more than I have by calling their prophet's proclamations "Crap"
"
I think what happens is when you quote books written by people who mix their opinions with "doctorine" you get crap. Just like when you add in your opinion of what truth is concerning another religion and tell them it is "the truth" and they are living a lie. I think that is simply your opinion. It is a terrible shame that people of the LDS religion are involved in some of these terrible things I have read on this board. I don't know any of them but I do beleive the stories. I don't think anyone one would make that stuff up. I am sad to hear of so many people who seem to think all LDS people are like that. I have to say, I do understand how that can happen. Especially because of the magnitude of what has been done to these kids and their families.
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obviously you can't read Roy. I said nothing about Godly whites and confederate flags. I was talking about bigotry and racism, both of which can be found in the south. And no, Idaho doesn't have more rednecks than the south. Idaho has lots more bigots and racists tho..and it sounds like you are one of 'em. Imagine that?
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Even been on the BYU campus? It's scarier than a Stephen King novel.
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Much of you say is true about Idaho, and that was my point. I can't dis on the rivers and the woods though. On that account it is really a great place. I still go over there regularly to enjoy them. And, no problem. You would be right. We all carry some bigoty and work dilligently to decrease it. Actually I love the South and Love making fun if it as much as I do my beloved Northwest and especially my sweet home Idaho and the whole USA and a few other places too. I suppose I didn't make it clear, however. that I don't identify myself with any of particular place. Hey, I've lived all over the place and have liked most all of them (no zenophobia or ethnocentrism here). However, I've been thinking, it would sure be funny to get a bumber sticker that says "God Bless Canada and Mexico." Since I'm not getting any laughs ruffling southern feathers, anybody wanna make one of those bumper stickers just for fun. Thanks for the good advice Karen!!!! And, you are right. This is not to be taken seriously. And since it is annoying to others on the board, I'll do the honerable thing and put and end to it. And to the gentleman from the South. "Its all good."
Roy
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:wink: -from teh south
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:smile: Thanks South:
Unrelated to the past exchange and to everyone.
I found an Amazon site that gives an Account of that book that someone brought up with a few exerps. You have to fish around the site. It showas a table of contents and a couple of the written pages including and intro. I'm going out and buy the thing - its cheap and looks interesting. There ate also links to other books and videos on LDS, free masons and relates stuff.
Here it is:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... ader&img=3 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1565077172/ref=lib_rd_ss_TC01/104-5746112-9959904?v=glance&s=books&vi=reader&img=3)
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I make a lot of typos and can't spell worth a damn - I think I need a boarding school.
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The God Makers is an excellent book. I Am reading it now. Mormon folk and critics should all read it.
The Mormon folks do indeed intend to be Gods. Isn't this Blasphemy?
This fits the description of the comming of the antichrist in the bible - right down to the angel of light on the bigger Mormon Temples.
I haven't in the past, been religous. If anything could put the fear of God into me, it is this book on our friends the Mormons - their beliefs and history.
WOW!!!
Thanks Antigen
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I just finished Jon Krakauer's book "Under The Banner of Heaven: A Story of Violent Faith". Took me days to get over the nightmarish chapters on the infamous Lafferty brothers. All I can say, is pray for the women and children who are victimized daily in communities ruled by the FLDS (Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints).
:eek:
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http://www.sltrib.com/2003/Oct/10292003/utah/106451.asp (http://www.sltrib.com/2003/Oct/10292003/utah/106451.asp)