Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: anon on September 25, 2003, 11:09:00 AM
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[ This Message was edited by: KarenZ on 2003-10-18 14:08 ]
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[ This Message was edited by: KarenZ on 2003-10-18 14:09 ]
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[ This Message was edited by: KarenZ on 2003-10-18 14:09 ]
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I agree with Karen....
For those of you that really won't wake up and realize what kind of hands your children are in, get a tape of Tuesday's Inside Edition. Take a close look at the kids in the dog cages. Is this OK with you? Were your teens that bad that they deserve this?
I personally saw the building at Dundee that Narvin was getting ready to open. It was ready over a year ago. They were starting to threaten children in the other WWASP schools that another High Impact was open. They even asked the parents at Dundee to write a letter of committment to their child saying that they supported any decision by staff to send their child to this camp. No child deserves to be behind those walls. Pressure from the press in Costa Rica postponed the opening of this facility. Thank you Tim Rodgers! Narvin put money in this facility first, when it could have been used to improve Dundee. All he sees is $$$$$$ signs, not what is best for our children.
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Curious what the buzz is on the BBS about the Inside Edition show and how current families are reacting ... anybody know?
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Check out the phone number for this program, it appears to be the same number for Parent Resources listed below. Is this program still operating?
http://wildernessprogramsetc.com/ (http://wildernessprogramsetc.com/)
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On 2003-09-25 09:07:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I agree with Karen....
For those of you that really won't wake up and realize what kind of hands your children are in, get a tape of Tuesday's Inside Edition. Take a close look at the kids in the dog cages. Is this OK with you? Were your teens that bad that they deserve this?
I personally saw the building at Dundee that Narvin was getting ready to open. It was ready over a year ago. They were starting to threaten children in the other WWASP schools that another High Impact was open. They even asked the parents at Dundee to write a letter of committment to their child saying that they supported any decision by staff to send their child to this camp. No child deserves to be behind those walls. Pressure from the press in Costa Rica postponed the opening of this facility. Thank you Tim Rodgers! Narvin put money in this facility first, when it could have been used to improve Dundee. All he sees is $$$$$$ signs, not what is best for our children."
Actually, I think the real heroes are Su Flowers and Carey Bock. The 2 moms who wanted their kids out of Dundee and fought to bring them home. I didn't get to see the program so I don't know if these 2 women were interviewed, but since no one has mentioned them, it doesn't sound like it.
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There are no heros. Yes, Su and Carey did what they could. There were also many other parents and students that have worked many hours talking with press and making things happen. It was the effort of many that closed Dundee and now these efforts are being redirected to finish exposing WWASP.
Inside Edition interviewed many over the past few months. It doesn't matter if they didn't interview Carey or Su. They have been interviewed before.
There are parents and students stepping up daily that want to be heard.
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There are parents and students stepping up daily that want to be heard.
Really, I hope they don't post Anon, like yourself. Su and I took action. Real action. Action that brought attention to Dundee. We would not be ignored and brushed aside, not by people like you or anyone else. We took action in which there was risk. That action has left us open to public scrutinty. That is where we differ. We were and are not afraid of the truth, but then, we tell only the truth. You Anon, you must be one of the others. One who can't tell your name or won't tell your name because you are afraid to stand up for what you believe in (or maybe you just can't or won't because there is risk invovled). That is sad. What do you have to hide, who knows?
I am glad there are other parents of Dundee now seeing the reality of the "program." I am glad they are coming forward and are willing to talk. I don't think I am a hero either. I think I am a mom. I am a mom who will and would fight like a dog to protect my children.
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I think I am a mom. I am a mom who will and would fight like a dog to protect my children.
"fight like a dog to protect my children"
well, is that what you did when you shipped them to their dad to handle. that isnt fighting; that is giving up. neither here nor there. you are right, you are not a hero, you had 15 minutes of fame, if that, and have had a chip on your shoulder ever since. according to the paper you went into dundee to make headlines, or you woudnt have contacted the press, and shot blame to all of the parents that were dumb enough to fall for wwasps slick marketing. now su flowers is possible a hero, she had nothing, not a penny and fought a fight. carey went in for headlines. obvious. i dont want to start a carey bashing but stop pointing fingers carey when you have no clue what it is like to be a person really taken by wwasps. dundee closing was the forces of many people, and i mean many. just like the rest will fall eventually from a huge effort of truths. truths that will be told.
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sorry that i didnt stay on subject.
if there are any high impact former parents where did you sent your payments to? i heard it was r&b billing; same place for all the other ww programs. sure now they will say they hire dthe same billing company that seems to be all tied in together. conincidental? sp.
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How long can WWASP get away with opening up a program, profiting off that program, and then bailing when it gets to hot????
Whats the count 8?
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1- Morava in the Czech Republic
2- Sunrise Beach (there is a girl named Loah that posted on voy regarding the real story)
3- Paradise Cove in Samoa -
4- Dundee Ranch in Costa Rica - reopening?
What are the others? To my knowledge none of them closed due to abuse, abuse was an excuse. I know what the newspapers alleged, but is that true? Why were there never any charges filed or won? Carey? Karen?
Why do the kids that were at Dundee say they had a library, but Ashley on Inside Edition say they had no books? Carey?
I read somewhere that the parents paid the wwasps billing department for High Impact as their child was still enrolled at the wwasps school, taking time out at HI and being returned, so the tuition was paid by wwasps to Hi Impact during that time...not a big accountant type, so not sure if that makes sense.
I don't see anywhere that High Impact was marketed or overseen by wwasps itself or any of their marketing companies other than Parent Resources.
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well, is that what you did when you shipped them to their dad to handle. that isnt fighting; that is giving up. neither here nor there. you are right, you are not a hero,
So does this mean that when parents divorce and the kids go to live with one of their parents, the other parent "has shipped them off to the other to handle?" I don't quite think so. I did not give up, never have, never did, never will.
Now, on the other hand, that must be what you did. Except instead of sending them off to live with the other loving parent, you sent your child to live with abusers. Boy you must hurt deep down inside. If I were you and I had sent my child to live with those who abused him I too would be pretty mad. The only difference is that I would be mad at myself and not others.
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The above post is mine.
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Hey, any mom (or dad) that gets on a plane to go get their kids is a big-time-hero in my book! Kudos to these moms for fighting for their children.
:wave:
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I don't understand why people are not grasping the concept the High Impact is owned by WWASP. If it is advertised on their websites, referred to by directors and family reps, and threatened by staff, what other proof do you need? They share the same marketing company and billing company, BOTH OF WHICH ARE FULLY OWNED AND OPERATED BY WWASP! How nice of WWASP to arrange billing for you while they're beating the living hell out of your kid...Of course they'll take your money! Why would WWASP re-route their money somewhere else? Hell no! If it looks like a duck, and acts like a duck, it most certainly is a duck! I know for a fact that High Impact is owned by WWASP because the *dandy* folks up at Spring Creek Lodge explained it to parents that way. Since WWASP already had parents *trust*, of course they would be willing to place their child in another *loving*, *caring*, WWASP institution. Wake up people!!!!!
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Carey was looking for a solution and found one (actually this is a bit presumptious because I don't know if her decision was based on any trouble with her sons). Not everyone has an option of sending their children to another parent but it would seem to be the logical thing to do. The summer my son went to TB I sent his younger brother to stay with my parents for the summer. It was the smartest thing I could have done. It redirected him and when he came back home we were all behaving better.
Back to the High Impact topic:
There was no need to market HI as heavily as the other wwasp programs because most of the HI inmates were sent there from another wwasp program. The marketing was all done within the program. The majority of the HI students went from a wwasp facility to HI and then back to a wwasp facility. The entire time that HI was open there were many parents who posted on the bbs regarding HI but never did anyone from wwasp ever post anything stating that HI was not part of their network. It has only been since HI closed that the denials started.
Judy
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Why do the kids that were at Dundee say they had a library, but Ashley on Inside Edition say they had no books? Carey?
They had a library, so to speak, consiting of books that had been donated from various sources. They did not have text books. They had photo copies of text books that the kids worked from. Maybe that is what Ashley meant by her statement that there were no books.
[ This Message was edited by: Carey on 2003-09-25 14:20 ]
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On 2003-09-25 13:28:00, Anonymous wrote:
"well, is that what you did when you shipped them to their dad to handle. that isnt fighting; that is giving up. neither here nor there. you are right, you are not a hero,
So does this mean that when parents divorce and the kids go to live with one of their parents, the other parent "has shipped them off to the other to handle?" I don't quite think so. I did not give up, never have, never did, never will.
Now, on the other hand, that must be what you did. Except instead of sending them off to live with the other loving parent, you sent your child to live with abusers.
Boy you must hurt deep down inside. If I were you and I had sent my child to live with those who abused him I too would be pretty mad. The only difference is that I would be mad at myself and not others.
I am not the person you are responding to but I have seen similar posts from you and others before so I am answering this time.
Yeah, it does hurt deep down inside. Actually, I am mad at myself AND others. Your comments can't hurt me. You can't say anything I haven't said to myself. No one can judge me as harshly as I judge myself. I live with my own guilt and am astounded at my child's ability to forgive me. It is because of his forgiveness and wanting to get on with his life that I have to move beyond the guilt and pain to be a mom he can turn to and trust. It's about him and the other teens, not me.
Judy
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Judy, I am sorry. I did not mean to hurt you. Please accept my apology.
I was really only trying to respond to the anon who accused me of sending my child off for someone else to handle. An Anon who really should look in the mirror before pointing a finger. I was trying to make a point. I guess I made my point at the expense of others. Sorry.
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On 2003-09-25 14:28:00, Carey wrote:
"Judy, I am sorry. I did not mean to hurt you. Please accept my apology.
I was really only trying to respond to the anon who accused me of sending my child off for someone else to handle. An Anon who really should look in the mirror before pointing a finger. I was trying to make a point. I guess I made my point at the expense of others. Sorry."
Apology accepted and not necessary. We really are all in this together even though we got here from different paths.
Judy
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[ This Message was edited by: KarenZ on 2003-10-18 14:13 ]
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Karen Writes:
Plenty of cases have been filed. Some settled out of court; some dismissed due to the attorney not being on the ball and letting deadlines pass. However, my experience was, the attorneys I consulted thought the case to complicated and up against to much money. I was advised to seek out a class action firm, that could afford the resources to go up against so much money. I was also advised to speak with the FBI.
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Bottom line is there is no class-action-lawsuit that's been filed and no one knows why, except to presume "these things take time". Also, why hasn't HURON placed a NATIONWIDE ad notifying former students and their parents of a class-action-lawsuit? Are they relying on ISAC, Boarding School Truth and others to spead the word and round up clients? Not very encouraging but then, that seems to be par for the course when you get right down to it. Lots of TALK, but NO ACTION.
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http://www.wwasp.com (http://www.wwasp.com)
Cross Creek Programs: 1-800-818-6228
Help My Teen: 1-800-247-1696
Lifelines Crisis Intervention: 1-877-723-3767
Parent Resources Hotline: 1-888-200-5061
Teen Help: 1-800-840-5704
Teens In Crisis: 1-800-250-3966
WWASPS Marketing Companies - in answer to: is Parent Resources now Teen Help. No.
On the Class Action: My "guess" is that judging from the small number of teens and parents that claim to have a bad experience - on this site (and a few were never involved with WWASPS) and in the newspapers, tv, there may not be enough for Huron to go forward with it.
I'm not holding my breath.
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Karen - which cases were settled out of court? That's been a rumor, but have never heard who. Does anyone have the court documents to confirm this?
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i think karen is trying to say the there are many confidentiality agreements are signed which many look at as settlement. i guess in a way they are. parents shuts up and they get their money back. go ahead ask us who. we dont know since they are confidential, but we do know they exist. how? parents do talk and why would we tell you who so they would have to pay you back. keep trying to think things are not coming to an end. not to worry huron knows exactly what they are doing. or actually, that is probably what you are worried about.
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On 2003-09-25 16:16:00, Anonymous wrote:
"i think karen is trying to say the there are many confidentiality agreements are signed which many look at as settlement. i guess in a way they are. parents shuts up and they get their money back. go ahead ask us who. we dont know since they are confidential, but we do know they exist. how? parents do talk and why would we tell you who so they would have to pay you back. keep trying to think things are not coming to an end. not to worry huron knows exactly what they are doing. or actually, that is probably what you are worried about."
No offsense, a'non, but the question is not whether Huron knows what they are doing. The question is WHY they have NOT filed a lawsuit that at least one kid has claimed to be the lead plaintiff in (Ryan F.). Very strange.
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Since when did class action lawsuits get filed in a matter of a few months?
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On 2003-09-25 17:19:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Since when did class action lawsuits get filed in a matter of a few months?"
I don't know the answer to your question, but according to this news article, it appears the lawsuit was supposed to be filed around the time this article was published. As for ISAC, I checked their website and yes, they do have a link to information on what to do if someone is interested in joining the class-action-lawsuit. Perhaps someone with expertise in this area of the law can provide more helpful information about class-actions in general, which may help to explain why the case has yet to be filed.
Parents to Sue Association
By Tim Rogers
Tico Times Staff
trogers@ticotimes.net
June 20, 2003
After months of planning and organizing, an underground parents' network opposed to the behavior-modification practices employed by the Utah-based World-Wide Association of Specialty Programs (WWASP) is now prepared to surface and slap the umbrella organization with a massive class-action lawsuit, The Tico Times has learned.
Two high-profile California-based law firms, Huron Law Group LLP and Masry & Vititoe - the latter made famous by the movie "Erin Brockovich" - are planning to enter the class-action suit in a Northern District Federal Court of California today, attorney Ed Masry told The Tico Times yesterday.
The lawsuit is expected to name all nine WWASP affiliates in the U.S., Mexico, Jamaica, and Costa Rica's recently closed Dundee Ranch Academy, a facility on the grounds of a former resort hotel in the central Pacific town of Orotina.
Dundee, home to 200 troubled teens mostly from the U.S., was forced to close last month following two government interventions to investigate allegations of abuse, including reports of physical restraint and sentencing youths to hours of solitary confinement, and allegations of drugging the students.
The interventions spun out of control when Prosecutor Fernando Vargas explained to the students their rights under Costa Rican law, sparking rebellion, violent rioting and 35 students running away (TT, May 23).
Since the program closed, all the youths have been relocated to their homes in the U.S., or to WWASP's sister programs in Montana and Jamaica (TT, May 30; June 6, 13).
MANY Dundee parents adamantly defend the facility, insisting that the program's "tough-love" tactics helped their sons or daughters through severe discipline and drug problems. Several parents have told The Tico Times in past months that their children were on a potentially fatal crash course and that Dundee provided a life-saving emergency brake.
Dundee owner and Utah native Narvin Lichfield, 42, was jailed for 24 hours May 23 on allegations of abuse, coercion and rights violations. He is currently under court order to remain in the country while the Prosecutor's Office continues to investigate what went on during Dundee's 20-month existence here.
The recent problems at Dundee have also prompted authorities in Jamaica and Utah to take new interest in the WWASP programs there, and this week impelled the Greenwood County Sheriff's Office in South Carolina to open an investigation of Lichfield's other behavior-modification program, Carolina Springs.
According to Masry, the class-action lawsuit will accuse WWASP of deceptive trade practices, violation of the 1983 Civil Rights Act, civil racketeering, false advertising and assault and battery.
The lawyers also will ask the judge to slap all WWASP facilities with temporary cease-and-desist orders, Masry said.
California father Chris Goodwin is expected to be a key plaintiff in the case, but it is not yet clear how many other victims will be involved.
Goodwin, who led the charge to close a WWASP-associated program in Mexico, claims his son was severely abused at the now-defunct "High Impact" program. According to Goodwin, at the Mexican facility his son was locked in a dog cage for a week at a time, hog-tied for three days, had his thumb twisted back and broken by a staffer, and had his teeth knocked through his lips by an employee who smashed his face in the ground repeatedly (TT, March 14).
WWASP earns more than $80 million worldwide each year, according to some estimates. It is not clear how much the class-action suit will request in damages.
WWASP president Ken Kay told The Tico Times this week he was unaware of the class-action suit, but doesn't think the organization will be held liable for any wrongdoing. He said WWASP is a non-profit membership organization that doesn't own or operate any schools.
Meanwhile, in Costa Rica, separate legal proceedings against Dundee moved ahead this week following last Friday's deposition by Robin Crawford, mother of former Dundee student Cody. Crawford told the judge Dundee falsely advertised itself and its staff physically and emotionally abused her son (TT, June 13).
Lichfield, who estimated he lost $20 million because of his program's closure, has not returned repeated Tico Times phone calls over the last two weeks.
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On 2003-09-25 16:07:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Karen - which cases were settled out of court? That's been a rumor, but have never heard who. Does anyone have the court documents to confirm this? "
Hmm, I assume something settled out of court would not have court documents.
Judy
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It's just an assumption - so no one is right or wrong here.
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After months of planning and organizing, an underground parents' network opposed to the behavior-modification practices employed by the Utah-based World-Wide Association of Specialty Programs (WWASP) is now prepared to surface and slap the umbrella organization with a massive class-action lawsuit, The Tico Times has learned.
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Has anyone asked a member of the "underground parents network" what the delay is in filing the class-action lawsuit since this is apparently something they have been "planning and organizing" for months?
:tup:
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There isnt any delays. You will all know when it hits. Dont worry, it will be here. As someone said, you dont put class actions together overnight. As far as the Tico Times it seems Ed Masry probably didnt exactly know after all he and Erin B. are the financially supporters and Huron is the firm. Maybe the reporter should have called the Huron Group. Keep throwing up your smoke screens to throw off program parents but soon the world will know.
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On 2003-09-25 19:29:00, Anonymous wrote:
"There isnt any delays. You will all know when it hits. Dont worry, it will be here. As someone said, you dont put class actions together overnight. As far as the Tico Times it seems Ed Masry probably didnt exactly know after all he and Erin B. are the financially supporters and Huron is the firm. Maybe the reporter should have called the Huron Group. Keep throwing up your smoke screens to throw off program parents but soon the world will know. "
Oh, that's it, blame the reporter, Tim Rogers, for not getting his facts straight. Whose throwing up a smoke screen now?
::bangin::
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Personally, I am beginning to question the legitimacy of this so-called underground parents network and wondering if anyone else is too? I mean, does this group even have an identity????
:eek:
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You know I'm really upset that these schools make kids run or walk as a consequence for not following the rules. It reminds of my son's public school here in the desert. He plays football, and the coach makes them run with full gear in the searing heat with full agreement from most parents and the school administration. Not only that, but they can only have water when their done. The coach really has him brainwashed though! He said he didn't follow the rules and he knew what would happen. What the HELL is this all about? I called other schools, and they do the same thing and he won't give up football.
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On 2003-09-25 19:37:00, Anonymous wrote:
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On 2003-09-25 19:29:00, Anonymous wrote:
"There isnt any delays. You will all know when it hits. Dont worry, it will be here. As someone said, you dont put class actions together overnight. As far as the Tico Times it seems Ed Masry probably didnt exactly know after all he and Erin B. are the financially supporters and Huron is the firm. Maybe the reporter should have called the Huron Group. Keep throwing up your smoke screens to throw off program parents but soon the world will know. "
Oh, that's it, blame the reporter, Tim Rogers, for not getting his facts straight. Whose throwing up a smoke screen now?
::bangin:: "
Okay, so Ed Masry and Erin B. are financing the class-action lawsuit. Where is the documentation to support this claim of yours or is this classified (top secret) information that only members of the UPN (Underground Parents Network) are privvy to?
:wave:
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Underground Parents Network??? Hey, where can I join? Is there a link?
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If it is underground, it means no one knows about it. Does it exist? Who knows. Does it matter? Only to certain people that it will effect. Great job UPN. :tup:
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Personally, I am beginning to question the legitimacy of this so-called underground parents network and wondering if anyone else is too? I mean, does this group even have an identity????
Yes it has a name. It is called Trekers.
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I forgot to post my name to the above post. Trekers is the name of the underground network that is mentioned in the news article. Most all of those fighting against WWASP were at one time or another part of this network. I myself included. I however was "kicked off" because I would not go with the flow, so to speak. I questioned some of their ideas and methods much like I questioned Dundee's ideas and methods.
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[ This Message was edited by: KarenZ on 2003-10-18 14:16 ]
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It now seems to me, (and this is just my impression)
Once you make that statement, you negate what ever else you have to say.
Calling other members names or insisting on action the group felt counter productive could get you booted.
Funny, I don't remember the "group" voting on removing me from the list. Oh yeah, I forgot, it was not a "group" decision, it was Sue who made the decision and BK, being the administrator of the listserv, who carried it out. There was no vote. Also, can you show me who was calling who names?
I hate debating things with you Karen, you are just no match at all.
Karen, why did you pull Nathan from Dundee?
[ This Message was edited by: Carey on 2003-09-26 09:24 ]
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Good question Carey - I heard she pulled her son from Dundee after she got booted off the wwasp bbs for posting severe accusations about the Mormons and got all "butt hurt."
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I cannot speak for Karen, but I can use her terms: "I assume, I believe", which by and of themselves do not void any comments which follow, despite other poster's comments to the contrary....
OK, Karen has told me and the whole world several times over that she pulled her son when she finally put together enough "hunch" intuitive feelings that Dundee was not what she wanted to help her son. She continued on with the BBS, but was alarmed when former student Ryan Pink (look it up; his well-written statements are archived) came on the BBS with statements of abuse at TB. She added to the thread with questions about the allegations, as well as questions as to the Mormon influence (which went counter to her preferred religious practices). She was summarily booted within seconds of this posting.
Now, this isn't hard to understand, is it? Nothing really subversive...sorry. Not much fun when the truth is really simple, is it?
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[ This Message was edited by: KarenZ on 2003-10-18 14:19 ]
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anybody that's every been involved in any kind of legal action knows it takes time and is important to come with your guns loaded...I'd be worried it they went ahead too soon...as it is the TEEN HELPERS better rest up while they can...cause it's gonna come like a thud...
:grin:
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As for weather or not it was a group decision - I know more about that than you do - and If you'll tell the truth , you'll admit I tried very hard to get you to calm down and back off so as to prevent your being tossed again. You wouldn't listen to good advice then, just as you won't listen now.
That is pretty funny. Who WAS giving me good advice? Who IS giving me good advice? You? :lol:
Let's talk about why I was booted, again.
It was because I wanted the pictures of High Impact given to the media. Sue, and others, were against that. They wanted to save them for the "class action" law suit.
Let me refresh your memory:
Yes, I was removed from the list because the people on the list did not want to hear what I had to say about it, they prefer to keep the pictures to use in a court case that could take up to a year to ever even happen. A year is a long time for kids to have to wait to be saved, especially knowing there is evidence out there right now that would help parents to see the the truth now, today.
Most of the people on the list have kids who are already home, they don't see the need to move quickly to save those who are still in these programs. So the need of urgency is less important to them. The need for "revenge" for lack of a better word, is on the top of their list. I want accountabiltiy and I want to prosecute those guilty of child abuse but I want kids out of these programs and safe first. I want the parents to have all information that is available out there for them to view. Then we can go after and make accountable those who have profited off of this terrible "child warehousing institution."
I don't care what media they use, it does not have to be on Lon's website. However, I was asked by the person who owns the pictures to see if Lon was willing to post them. He said he could not and suggested that they be taken to the media.
I know if my boys were still in a WWASP program and I found out someone was holding evidence that would show me what can and has happened in one of these schools then I would hold them accountable for letting it continue to happen. I don't think you should hold on to evidence for a court case when it could help save kids today.
By the way, why were they released to Inside Edition now? Hmm...why did the "groups" mind change all of a sudden? Do you suppose all of the groupies now realize I was right? Looks that way.
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Let's talk about why I was booted, again.
PLEASE, LET'S NOT.
SOME OF US ARE SICK OF HEARING IT. WOULD YOU PLEASE JUST POST THE LINK TO YOUR PREVIOUS RESPONSE AND STOP TAKING UP BAND WIDTH TO ARGUE WITH THE SAME PERSON ABOUT THE SAME ISSUE REPEATEDLY.
WE'VE HEARD ABOUT THE PICTURES, ETC BEFORE TOO.
AS I RECALL, THEY CLAIMED YOU WANTED TO POST THE PICTURES ON STRUGGLING TEENS. I THINK THEY MADE A WISER CHOICE GOING WITH INSIDE EDITION...IF INDEED THE PICTURES IN QUESTION WERE USED IN THE PIECE.
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Carey - you wanted to send some still photos to Lon Woodburry.
When you hit resistance from the group, you got more and more agitated and belligerent.
Then you got tossed.
It was just that simple.
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THEY CLAIMED YOU WANTED TO POST THE PICTURES ON STRUGGLING TEENS. I THINK THEY MADE A WISER CHOICE GOING WITH INSIDE EDITION..
Hey Shannon, I mean Anon, who is they? By the way, "they" for got to tell you that it did not matter to me where it was posted, whether on Lon's site or where ever. I suggested the media, but they wanted to hold on to the information for the "class action" all the while your kid was still in the program. That doesn't bother you. I would think it should. It might have saved your child some pain and suffering.
I love it when I am told to quit discussing certain topics. Let me make a suggestion to you. Why don't you just not read them. Then I can post what I want and you can read what you want and we both will be happy.
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Carey - you wanted to send some still photos to Lon Woodburry.
When you hit resistance from the group, you got more and more agitated and belligerent.
Then you got tossed.
It was just that simple.
Really. Could you please post those discussions for us? That is the agitated and belligerent ones. The only ones I have are the ones sent to Sue and to BK. And, these were sent to Sue and BK after I was booted. I would like to see the other agitated and belligerent ones you claim exist. So please, provide the evidence. You do know evidence is important when you make an accusation.
[ This Message was edited by: Carey on 2003-09-26 12:48 ]
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:idea:
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On 2003-09-26 10:40:00, KarenZ wrote:
"The story is up all over the place. My son was pulled months before Kay booted me.
If you really want to know - look it up.
This post can be found on the Bridge To Understanding Discussion Forum.
http://www.bridgetounderstanding.com/cg ... ?read=1449 (http://www.bridgetounderstanding.com/cgi-bin/discussforum.cgi?read=1449)
Academy at Dundee Ranch/wwasp/teen help
Posted by Karen Burnett on Tuesday, 6 May 2003, at 10:41 p.m. (eastern time)
The Following is my account of my family's WWASP experience.
To whom it may concern,
I'm writing in regard to TeenHelp/World Wide Association of Specialty Programs and Schools/ WWASP. Their Program in Costa Rica is the Academy at Dundee Ranch.
I would like to tell you about my and my sons experience with WWASP. I'll attempt to be brief.
My son began using drugs and drinking at about age 15. By 16 he had lost control of the situation, was expelled from his school, robbing us blind, running away, coming home stoned - lots of worrisome stuff.
None of the less restrictive measures where able to make any difference - so I went looking for a residential situation that might.
I found WWASP/teenhelp on Lon Woodburry's web sight - strugglingteens.com.
I spent several months calling and asking questions. I did speak with other unrelated residential programs, but cost was a hindrance. WWASP had programs out of the States, which I was told made them more affordable, as the dollar was so strong in these countries. We are not a wealthy family, and I was paying for this with what I had just inherited from my father's estate - so funds where limited.
The program sounded great. I was sent a list of parents to contact, and they all said it was great. I could find nothing negative anywhere. I ended up having my son escorted to Academy at Dundee ranch, in April of 2002.
I'd like to try at this point and give you an idea of the ways in which I was mislead and manipulated by WWASP.
I was told a student with a profile and history like my son's could expect to graduate within 6 months. Graduating the program is the all important goal. Once he was at Dundee, and I was able to access the WWASP parent's bulletin board, the BBS, I soon realized this 6 month time frame was a farce. Even a year would be conservative, and two years appeared to be the average, although, I also noticed, younger students seemed to take much longer. Three or Four years wasn't unusual. I have come to feel there are many ways to slow down and sabotage a student's progress, and the motivation to do so is a powerful one - money.
I was also mislead about the basic nature of the program. I was lead to believe it was a school. I asked about this specifically. Repeatedly. I didn't want a hospital like placement, or a placement where many of the students had emotional or mental health issues. I needed and wanted a residential drug rehab with a good educational program.
I was told in answer to my questions, the program was a boarding school type of environment, with a therapeutic eliminate, which was daily group sessions, and emotional growth seminars. I thought I understood what this meant, but I was mistaken. The group sessions where not related to drug rehab in any meaningful way. Nor where the seminars what I had believed them to be. This I came to slowly understand from my activity on the BBS.
The 'school' consist of computer classes, with no actual instruction from an actual teacher. I had been told all the Program schools where fully accredited, but this wasn't true. Dundee didn't attain accreditation until sometime after my son arrived, and much of his early work was wasted. He found it impossible to take anything that needed explaining, such as algebra. He mostly spent his time doing minor electives he could manage from a store of basic common knowledge. It turns out "working the Program" is the first and foremost with education being of far less importance.
It also turned out that there where in fact a large number of students with emotional and mental health issues. It is apparently believed this particular program is a one size fits all cure.
As I mentioned, there was no actual drug rehab component, and the education wasn't of the high quality I had been lead to believe; also, the true nature of the seminars wasn't something I wanted to be part of, as the beliefs and practices they promote, conflict with many of our family's beliefs as evangelical Christians. And so I began looking for a different placement, and transferred my son out of the WWASP program at Dundee, to the Abundant Life Academy, in August of 2002.
At this point, I began to learn of things I had been mislead about, that are of a very serious nature.
I was told the program was points and levels based. Points where gained or lost, depending on how a student did in several areas of behavior, and levels gained or lost depending on the number of points. Gaining levels being desired, as it not only leads to graduating the program, but also more privileges; Such as field trips and activities, like maybe a dance or a movie.
Even calls home to Mom and Dad are considered a privilege that must be earned. I was mislead about this as well. I had been told my son couldn't call home until attaining level three. I was lead to believe this might take a couple or three weeks. This wasn't really alarming. I soon learned it could and would take much longer, three or four Months being a more appropriate estiment. Some go for much longer than that - many, many months, with no calls home allowed.
The Points and levels where the only form of 'consequence' ever mentioned prior to enrollment.
I was never told, in any way shape or form, that Food is part of the reward system. I don't mean just the use of condiments. I mean food. My son felt he was being starved. He was always hungry. Hunger became a real issue for him and was always present. I think I understand now, why the new and lower level kids are kept hungry, but I'll just ask you to believe me when I say he was in fact kept hungry, for whatever reason.
I was also not told the program has a method of punishment that mirrors a practice that was inflicted on prisoners of Devils Island, Observation Place. The History channel has a show they do on prisons - and when they did Devil's Island, they gave a good description of Observation Place -
In Observation Place, the hapless student must remain silent, on their knees, face to the wall, hands behind their back, for up to twelve hours a day, for days at a time. Some of the 'schools' make them lay on their stomachs - Sometimes they did this at Dundee as well; but a forced body position and silence are always a part of it. My son spent three days in O. P for trading his medicine for candy.
On this occasion, when I asked - "what is O. P?" as I hadn't prior to this, ever herd of it; All I was told was, it was a place where the students had to remain quite and think about their non working choices. Maybe so. But there was an awful lot left unsaid. I didn't have a clue, until reading a description of O.P. in a New Orleans news paper article.
Its my understanding, some students spend the majority of their time in O. P., as they have a harder time conforming to the strict regimented demands of the program.
Another misleading was how restraint is used in the program. I was told restraint was sometimes used. This wasn't alarming, as I could easily imagine there where occasions when restraint would be needed, for the safety of the students. I was told it happens but was a rare occurrence, and as this made sense, I didn't question it.
What I have learned since my son has been transferred out of WWASP, is that restraint is very common and brutal. Its a common consequence to many minor infractions.
Lower level students are restrained for talking, as they are not allowed to talk - something else that was never disclosed to me upfront. Students are restrained for looking out of windows or smiling when they shouldn't be.
The restraint is painful. It isn't the sort of restraint that is to prevent ones harming themselves or others - but intended to hurt. My son told me, the students where told, the staff could break one bone with no reprisals, as all the parents had signed documents to that effect. I never signed anything giving my permission to break my son's bones.
He also told me it is a common thing for students to be beat up. He said it happened every day. At Dundee, he said it was the Jamaicans, who are transplants from WWASPs' Tranquillity Bay, that tended to beat up on the kids, and where so quick to restrain the students for minor things.
One last issue for my family is a matter of Faith. I had been assured that even though the WWASP/TeenHelp programs are Mormon owned and operated, no one particular Faith was encouraged or taught. However, it seems they do in fact consider the students a captive mission field. My son has told me, he was glad I sent him books to read, as oftentimes, if a student lacked a book of their own, they where handed a book of Mormon and made to read it.
On another occasion, he was invited to a Bible study, where instead of the Holy Bible, they passed out the book of Mormon. Many of the students are Mormon, and other families have no strong feeling about this issue; but for us, it's a real serious problem. I was upset about this.
All these things are why I think this program needs to be shut down.
There are good people at Dundee. I have been grateful for the kindness of my son's family Rep, as well as another young Costa Rican, who allowed my son to visit his home and travel to with him to meet me in Miami. There are good people, who deserve much heartfelt gratitude; But they have a despicable employer, In my opinion.
God's Peace,
Karen J Burnett
PS
For those who are confident my son has manipulated me with a pack of lies - I'd like to point out, I had transferred him out of there, and it was months later, before I learned most of the things I've related. The point being - he had no motive to lie. Neither do I.
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Posted by Karen Burnett on Tuesday, 6 May 2003, at 10:41 p.m. (eastern time){/QUOTE]
Did anybody notice the date and time that this was posted? I did. It was after Karen got to know Sue. Hmm...Karens story seems to have hit the net quite some time after her son was pulled from Dundee. Karen's story seems to have been molded and unfolded after becoming aquainted with Sue.
Karen, can you provide evidence that you were speaking out against Dundee back when your son was pulled? Or has your outcry only began to surface, like say since after October of 2002?
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Sorry that was mine. Anyway, Karen can you answer the question and back it up with proof?
By the way, I do know you posted this same story on Sue's site back in Jan of 2003. I want to see where you were talking out against Dundee from before October of 2002. You know, before you came to have heard about Dundee in the news. Back when you would have formed your opinion or would have come to some sort of proof on your own, that Dundee was not a good place. Or, has your discovery of the truth come after that fact.
What I am trying to figure out is, did you pull Nathan because you knew something was wrong there at Dundee or did you pull Nathan for other reasons only to learn it was a good thing that you had?
[ This Message was edited by: Carey on 2003-09-27 10:27 ]
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I was told a student with a profile and history like my son's could expect to graduate within 6 months.
Karen, didn't you have to sign a one year contract? If so, how would you figure that your son would be allowed to graduate in 6 months? The contract that my ex had to sign was for a year. He had to promise to pay the program at the very least, that length of time. It did not mention in the contract that if they graduated in less time, that he would be released from his payment thereof. To me, that is the program saying they will be there at least a year.
:question:
[ This Message was edited by: Carey on 2003-09-27 10:46 ]
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[ This Message was edited by: KarenZ on 2003-10-18 14:25 ]
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Karen, I followed the link you provided and read your statement. Very disturbing to learn about your concerns as to whether these programs are an appropriate placement for children suffering from a serious personality disorder. It's too bad you were booted off the parents support board for expressing your opinion. Sometimes I get the impression from reading posts on Lon's board that there is an underground network of parents who are successfully pitching non-WWASPS programs ... to their own financial gain. Am I wrong?
http://strugglingteens.com/news/lettert ... karen.html (http://strugglingteens.com/news/lettertoeditor/bennettkaren.html)
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[ This Message was edited by: imo on 2004-01-06 08:38 ]
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On 2003-09-27 12:56:00, KarenZ wrote:
"anaon asks:
Sometimes I get the impression from reading posts on Lon's board that there is an underground network of parents who are successfully pitching non-WWASPS programs ... to their own financial gain. Am I wrong?
I honestly do not know. Have you asked Lon or maybe Jena? I'd think they'd be much more in tune to this than anyone on Fornits.
I have never seen anything like this myslef, but I don't use Lon's board much. Just now and then.
Same anon says:
It's too bad you were booted off the parents support board for expressing your opinion
Actually, what I got the boot from the BBS for, was stating a fact. A couple facts - and then maybe worst of all - asking a question no one wanted to answer. "What chance does a Cathiolic family rep have of ever working up to being a Director? "
[ This Message was edited by: KarenZ on 2003-09-27 13:04 ]"
Good for you, Karen, at least you tried to engage those folks in some sort of meaningful dialogue before they pulled the plug on you. Good question about the catholic family rep but could you elaborate a bit as I'm not sure what you mean "working up to being a Director"?
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Uhhh....what chance does ANY family rep have to being promoted to director? Family Reps don't become directors. Directors come from within WWASP's innermost shell. For example, Cameron and Chaffin Pullan have been SCLA directors since the program opened in 1998. Usually the only promotion within the facility is family parents to family reps...and that's once in a great while. The rest of the staff comes and goes without much notice.
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I don't think that the Mormon thing is necessarily true. They don't hire based on religion. They don't promote staff based on religion. But, they are founded on the principles of the Mormon religion, and they govern parts of their program according to the Mormon religion. And that, is most certainly enough for me. Promotion of staff in the programs is based on to what degree they promote the program to the "students." I think the Catholic thing is irrelevant, as far as the directors go at least. Everyone knows that the "big boys" at WWASP, back in UTAH are Mormon though, but onsite at each facility it's questionable. The type of people you're looking at, the staff on the facility, are those willing to do ANYTHING for a buck.
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[ This Message was edited by: imo on 2004-01-06 08:35 ]
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I was told a student with a profile and history like my son's could expect to graduate within 6 months.
Karen, didn't you have to sign a one year contract? If so, how would you figure that your son would be allowed to graduate in 6 months? The contract that my ex had to sign was for a year. He had to promise to pay the program at the very least, that length of time. It did not mention in the contract that if they graduated in less time, that he would be released from his payment thereof. To me, that is the program saying they will be there at least a year.
Karen, did you have to sign a one year contract? If you did, why did you assume that Nathan would graduate in six months?
By the way, I am not saying you or Nathan lied about anything. I am not calling either of you a liar. I am just trying to understand why or how come you have become so confused about everything you speak about. I am trying to understand why there are so many inconsistancies in your telling of your turn of events.
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[ This Message was edited by: imo on 2004-01-06 08:35 ]
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StrugglingTeens/Lon/Jena = AGENDA
Lon gets paid to plug WWASP schools and other abusive teen treatment centers. I think Lon should be taken to court for his roll in referring teens to such centers.
I only check that board about once every other month. Its always the same few promoting certain programs in the name of ca$h.
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Yes, it is always the same group of parents (plus a few newbies) carrying on a discussion and essentially supporting one another ad nauseum. The thread about self-medicating started by Jena, I believe, led to some interesting disclosures from other parents, who all seemed to be on one kind of drug or another to help them cope with sending their kids away. Pretty sad commentary, don't you think?
:???:
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About the ST board.
It is worth keeping an eye on an posting now an then, because of the high percentage of wwasp parents who use it.You can never tell when something might get their attention and start them thinking for themselves.Its annoying how careful you have to be in how you express things, as Lon and Jena are very protective of wwasp. Lon can't claim he don't know because so many have told him. Maybe he will be held libel at some point.
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Karen,
Did you sign a 12 month contract? Yes or No?
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taking your advice Carey and advise others to do the same...skip reading posts with Carey's name by them!
they are not adding anything new to the fight just rehashing and attempts to make a lonely sorry woman feel somehow better about herself...sometimes there isn't enough to make people feel better and their need is so great that they make others fell bad to climb up?
sorry you're now her target Karen. I appreciate the ways that you are working to bring new exposure and information to this subject.
Carey has avoided answering the question about what she is doing to help kids except post here?
If she can/does answer that question - I will read her response.
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Anon, the difference between me and you and Karen and a lot of others who are associated with PURE is that I am after the truth in everything. You are all about bashing anyone and everyone who does not submit to your ways of doing things.
If you think you are helping kids by making accusations and by bashing others, you are wrong.
Sorry, I don't lie and make things up as you and Karen and all of the rest of your gang does. You see I back up what I say with proof. All you do is make accusations.
Karen can't answer the question because it shows how ridiculous she is and it shows how she has been manipulated by PURE. :lol: :lol: :lol:
And Anon, YOU ARE A COWARD! How really sad it is that you can post as ANON with statments that are so bold (ha ha) and yet you are afraid to reveal your identity. It just shows how cowardly you are, afraid to stand behind what you say. How sad and pathetic you must be to have no confindence in yourself.
[ This Message was edited by: Carey on 2003-09-29 09:26 ]
[ This Message was edited by: Carey on 2003-09-29 09:30 ]
[ This Message was edited by: Carey on 2003-09-29 09:31 ]
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Anon, as I am anon, so what. Ditto you, IGNORE Carey!
Karen, I don't know you, but you owe that wench NOTHING. Now I am writing, giving Carey more power, but lets all ignore this f-king idiot. As another anon said, things were so productive without her and her obsessions and so called truths. Carey, find another avenue to fill your day, you are not wanted here. Oh, except by the enemy. They would miss you. Hell, stay here cause you know you will just to annoy the shit out of us. I see the way you always need to bring up your threads, obviously everyone trys to ignore you, but you bring it back until someone strokes you. Go back take care of your kids. I knwo this will only piss you off more, but who cares, you are a dumbass.
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So Karen, did you sign a one year contract? Yes or no?
Hey, maybe you should hurry and go back and pull your letter from Sue's site, like Ryan did. Or maybe you can just go back and change your statement about your experience, like Ryan has.
Hurry, Hurry. Oh and you might try posting Anon from now on just like the rest of the cowards associated with PURE do so that next time the reality of what you are all about can be kept a secret just like theirs is.
Sad you people think you can stand up for something that you are not willing to put your neck out for. There has gotta be a reason...like half truths or no truth at all...or maybe just the fact that you are so badly associated with a certain individual that you know that once that is known others will have doubts about your intenttions too.
[ This Message was edited by: Carey on 2003-09-29 10:11 ]
[ This Message was edited by: Carey on 2003-09-29 10:13 ]
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::bigsmilebounce:: :
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[ This Message was edited by: imo on 2004-01-06 08:34 ]
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Karen! Your story is so full of holes that I, for one, am glad Carey is calling you on it.
As for your last paragraph - are you speaking to yourself? My judgment of you on this board speaks volumes of those same statements you made to Carey.
What does any of this have to do with High Impact? From what I gather, you had no personal experience of High Impact.
Are you trying to get people to say kids were beaten at Dundee Ranch, when they may not have been? What did your own son say about it? There were many kids there that said it never happened and without coercion from staff or fear of repercussion. Do you ignore that?
Ooops...I guess I just got sucked into your personal attack - Sorry!
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Ditto, Carey definitly knows what's up and can drive a Hummer through the holes in some of these bogus explanations. Tell the truth guys, or risk being exposed, it's just that simple.
:wave:
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Wow, Karen, you are mad. The truth sometimes is hard to swallow, isn't it?
I am not surprised you won't comment on the contract, it is proof that you mouth off and make claims that are false. It also is indicative of your relationship with Sue. You will say anything even if you have no proof of what you say. You don't think before you talk. You want everyone to think you are an expert on this subject when you really don't know anything. You have trouble sharing your own experience, that is, you have trouble getting the facts right on your own experience and yet you want to explain away what everyone else says and does with regard to their experience.
By the way I don't hate anybody, I just think when people do things that are wrong and they hurt others as a result of their actions, they should be held accountable.
Carey, what kind of contract I signed, Ain't nobody's bizzness but my own. Damn sure aint none of yours.
What, you are going to stop talking now? Why now? I asked about your contract not about when you started posting about your distaste of Dundee, you already answered that question. Oh, I see, now you are changing that answer. Ok...not surpised though.
Anyway, why not say whether or not you signed a 12 month contract? What is the big secret with that?
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That was me.
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Didn't Dundee have either a 3 month or a 12 month contract?
If Karen told the admissions person that her son only needed a little bit of help, then I wouldn't doubt they said he could be out in 6 months, but obviously she wasn't being honest about how deep his problems really were. Maybe she only signed the 3 month contract, or two 3 month contracts?
Karen seems to be justifying everything, but it doesn't wash.
If Ryan and Karen are just a sampling of who's involved with the class action, I would only "imagine" why it's taking so long to file a suit. :wink:
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I think she signed a 12 month contract. If she had not she would have said so. The 12 month contract contradicts what she has said in her statement that she has posted everywhere. It just goes to show, she does not know what she is talking about, even as far as it concerns her own personal experience.
[ This Message was edited by: Carey on 2003-09-29 12:09 ]
[ This Message was edited by: Carey on 2003-09-29 12:10 ]
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Sure would be nice to know how this class-action lawsuit got started. Anybody know?
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if you would pull your head out of your
high-horse's ass for 2 minutes, you would simply read the post from earlier this morning and see that she specifically stated that she signed a 12 months contract.
If WWASPS wishes to enforce their 4 month liquidated damages clause, ultimately, they will have to do so in a U.S. Court. If they choose to enter a U.S. forum, their contract and methods will be scrutinized under U.S. law and discovery methods.
Just as any contract to commit a crime is VOID AS A MATTER OF PUBLIC POLICY (eg., taking out a contract with a hit man to murder a business rival or an unwanted spouse), so too is a contract to kidnap a child and subject him or her to extended brainwashing under conditions which would not be legal if carried out by a U.S. Institution.
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She is only fooling herself if she doesnt think we know that. There is not a soul out there that thinks she is sane. I heard even the media and reporters know to stay clear of her. Nut case. Ignore her Karen, she gets high off of annoying people.
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I'd bet my last dollar every one of these recent anon post are Carey.
There ya go again. Making accusations that are false. Karen, hate to tell ya but you would be broke.
Karen, answer the question if you dare. Was it a 12 month contract?
if you would pull your head out of your
high-horse's ass for 2 minutes, you would simply read the post from earlier this morning and see that she specifically stated that she signed a 12 months contract.
See, what a dumb ass, she was told her child could graduate in 6 months, yet she signed a 12 month contract. That tells me she lied.
Can you show me where that post is, please.
By the way the only reporter who is not talking to me is Weiner. That is because I know how he came upon this story. I know how and why Chris made that trip to Casa when he did. The news story was a set up by Chris. That is why Weiner took a sudden interest in Casa.
My apologies to the anon immediately above here - I know you aren?t Carey.
Karen, if they agree with you, then they are not me, if they agree with me, then they are me. Is that how you see the world? If I were you, I would post as ANON. You need to hide behind a bag. :lol: :lol: :lol:
[ This Message was edited by: Carey on 2003-09-29 14:18 ]
[ This Message was edited by: Carey on 2003-09-29 14:19 ]
[ This Message was edited by: Carey on 2003-09-29 14:33 ]
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On 2003-09-29 12:16:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Sure would be nice to know how this class-action lawsuit got started. Anybody know?"
Ryan F. says he is (or hopes to be) the lead plaintiff.
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if you would pull your head out of your
high-horse's ass for 2 minutes, you would simply read the post from earlier this morning and see that she specifically stated that she signed a 12 months contract.
I have looked over all of Karen's posts. As of now, edits to date and time, no where did she say she signed a 12 month contract. So Anon, why do you claim that she did? Are you trying desperately to save face for her?
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Karen, what question have I left unanswered? I will be more than glad to answer any question you have. You might not like the answer or you might not agree with me, but none the less I will answer.
These people are always a pain in the ass
What kind of people, the kind who don't agree with ya? :lol:
[ This Message was edited by: Carey on 2003-09-29 14:54 ]
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Carey - if you have a quesiton for Karen or want to continue this, email her privately. WE DONT CARE TO LISTEN TO YOU.
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WE DONT CARE TO LISTEN TO YOU
Who is we? You and the Queen of England? You and your PURE buddies? Who? You and all of the other ANONs? Oh excuse me, I meant to say the other ANON's who think like you think, those who agree with you. Who is WE?
By the way, what is productive? Is productive what you define it to be?
Right, Anon, you make the rules. NOT! :cry2: :cry2:
Remember Sue told me once "I can't control your amendment rights, but I do control what is spread on the list." Thank goodness for Fornets!!!! Antigen does believe in my amendment rights!!!
I love Fornets and I love America!!!! Don't you?
[ This Message was edited by: Carey on 2003-09-29 15:10 ]
[ This Message was edited by: Carey on 2003-09-29 15:12 ]
[ This Message was edited by: Carey on 2003-09-29 15:13 ]
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On 2003-09-29 14:48:00, KarenZ wrote:
"It is annoying the way she butts in every link and harps on with her paranoid fantasies.
Some one asked what any of this has to do with High Impact - not a dam thing.
She does this on every link I start or post on much. It is an aggravation.
Theres no good way to handle her either - ignore her and she gets rabid; try and respond and she gets rabid.
I began this link b/c there had been some question about weather or not wwasp operated High Impact.
I didn't intend for it go off into all this crap, again.
I guess my fear is, if I just ignore her, there will be people who don't know the history and who might be mislead by her harping. As I said, ignoring her doesn?t stop her - she just gets more and more hysterical.
I do think its a shame she is allowed to detract and distract from the efforts of so many - not just myself. She is nothing but a negative force anymore, and has long since ceased to have anything positive to add.
All this is b/c she thinks I am lying about how long Jane told me it would take to graduate - Or, she is trying to prove me stupid for not understanding the contract.
And notice how she is harping on about this question she feels I ought to answer; All the while ignoring several pointed questions ask of her.
No doubt, she finds nothing odd in this; b/c after all, I'm just some stupid post program parent; while she is the perfect, infallible, untainted guardian of Truth; Clearly my (and everyone's) superior. We all owe her whatever she wants - while we can never expect she'd have anything to answer for.
These people are always a pain in the ass, and there is seldom anything to be done about it.
"
Karen, who is Jane? Also, you have said you found the program for your son through Lon's website. Can you please be more specific. e.g. Did you post asking for info? Did you buy his book? What was your reaction when you first learned of the controversy surrounding this organization? The Intrepid Net Reporter (original one) was online since 1998. Didn't you ever check that website out?
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Curious how many parents pulled their kids from Dundee following it's closure and either placed them in another non-WWASPS program or brought them home v. how many were sent to a different WWASPS program?
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Karen,
My suggestion, for what it's worth, is JUST DON"T RESPOND. The majority of posters here know you're story. For the benefit of any new participants, simply reply with a link to your story or one of the hundreds of other posts in which you've already explained an issue. No need to repeat yourself over and over and over. Unless you enjoy jousting with her.
Deborah
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Karen, answer the question if you dare. Was it a 12 month contract?
if you would pull your head out of your
high-horse's ass for 2 minutes, you would simply read the post from earlier this morning and see that she specifically stated that she signed a 12 months contract.
See, what a dumb ass, she was told her child could graduate in 6 months, yet she signed a 12 month contract. That tells me she lied.
Can you show me where that post is, please.
Please refer to Karen's post of 9/28 at 17:44:00. The reason there is a 4 month liquidated damage clause in the contract is BECAUSE IT WAS A 12 MONTH CONTRACT. 3 MONTH CONTRACTS DON'T HAVE A 4 MONTH EARLY CANCELLATION PENALTY.
What on earth is the point of this discussion? Are you getting enough oxygen in there?
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Karen, answer the question if you dare. Was it a 12 month contract?
if you would pull your head out of your
high-horse's ass for 2 minutes, you would simply read the post from earlier this morning and see that she specifically stated that she signed a 12 months contract.
See, what a dumb ass, she was told her child could graduate in 6 months, yet she signed a 12 month contract. That tells me she lied.
Can you show me where that post is, please.
Dear Carey:
Please refer to Karen's post of 9/28 at 17:44:00. The reason there is a 4 month liquidated damage clause in the contract is BECAUSE IT WAS A 12 MONTH CONTRACT. 3 MONTH CONTRACTS DON'T HAVE A 4 MONTH EARLY CANCELLATION PENALTY.
What on earth is the point of this discussion? Are you getting enough oxygen in there?
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Frankly, it seems Carey is doing more to expose the corruption within this so-called group of anti-WWASPSIES than anyone else and that's a good thing. Doesn't mean she is PRO-WWASPS because she is putting people like Karen's feet to the fire. After all, these people do tend to color the truth with their own shade of reality as evident by their own words and actions.
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And yet, I for one, thank god for the fact that the strongest evidence of "corruption" that you can come up with against anti-WWASPS parents is that there is an ambiguity concerning whether someone had a 12 month contract or a 3 month contract. That's a topic of such profound import that you consider it "...having one's feet put to the fire"???
B-F-D!!! Get a life. Maybe you could borrow one from somebody who hasn't been warped by too many parent seminars.
[ This Message was edited by: scottT on 2003-09-29 18:11 ]
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On 2003-09-29 18:08:00, scottT wrote:
"And yet, I for one, thank god for the fact that the strongest evidence of "corruption" that you can come up with against anti-WWASPS parents is that there is an ambiguity concerning whether someone had a 12 month contract or a 3 month contract. BFD!!! Get a life -- preferably one that hasn't been warped by too many parent seminars."
Why any parent would sign the rights of their own child away (for 3 months, 6 months, 1 year) is the question NONE of these parents can answer without trying to point the finger of blame at everybody and anybody but themselves, the very people who signed, sealed and delivered their kids into these programs.
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Fine. I sent our son to a program. I didn't investigate as fully as I should have. I have no one to blame for my lack of diligence but myself. That's a problem I shall deal with.
On the other hand, if I had been exposed to the quanta of information that has become available since the Dundee fiasco -- including especially the Fornits site -- I could have avoided being sucked in to the web of lies.
Some folks on this site are of the opinion that you have to be some kind of "virgin" in order to express a valid opinion. I prefer to believe that any relevant evidence which helps a parent see through the deception is valuable info. Don't dismiss it just because I lacked the prescience with which you were so abundantly blessed.
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Sucked in the web of lies? What the hell do you think this site is all about? Very funny :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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On 2003-09-29 18:43:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Sucked in the web of lies? What the hell do you think this site is all about? Very funny :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: "
What is 8 programs shut down about! You people make me sick! This isn?t about the parents, its about the KIDS. WAKE UP!