Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: maruska on January 28, 2010, 08:53:14 AM
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From another forum:
This is the first time I have ever joined in on anything like this but I need someone who will understand what we're going through. We have an adopted 15 year old daughter who we have had since birth. She was always strong willed and was diagnosed as ADHD at 8 yr old. Things got progressively worse over the next 5 years. The summer before high school she started getting heavily involved in drugs & alcohol. In Oct 2007 we sent her to a school in Utah for help. She came home a couple months ago after being there for 16 months. She actually graduated from the program and we were so proud. They diagnosed her there with RAD and we have read everything we could get our hands on and done everything all the therapists said but find out now the basically cheated the system and did whatever she had to do to get out of there. She had been home a little over 2 months and is right back where she was before or even worse. Dealing with a teenager with RAD is very different that dealing with an infant or toddler. She is rude, disrespectful and using consequences doesn't work. We are pretty much waiting for her to get picked up by the police but know that they will only bring her right back home which she has made very clear is the last place she wants to be. God help us - we love her but just don't know what to do.
This is so sad...I feel for those parents, I was in similar situation a couple of years ago with my daughter....it was hell...so I know what they are dealing with...
they are hurting, they are scared...and here comes SOMEONE with a solution: let her go to a school in Utah to get help....oh well...
I do not know how the people working in those schools can sleep at night...or do they really all believe they are doing the right thing? Do they never have any doubts? Who is allowed to work in such schools?
I think back of the only time when such a school was opened in my country...the Morava academy. After a couple of weeks the Czech teachers reported the school to the police...they learned quickly that the methods were abusive and against the law in my country...the Academy was closed short after...so I wonder...
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I feel for the young girl and her whole family. Attachment disorders are very difficult if not impossible to treat. There are only a handful of programs in the country willing to and equipped to take on these little RADishes and even then they have had limited success. If left untreated they will function minimally in society and most likely spend most of their adult life in jail. Even kids who have had treatment dont function well with other people.
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Maruska, looks like you've got a troll. Don't feed it.
She is rude, disrespectful and using consequences doesn't work.
Hahahahahaha, of course not. Dear Anonymous Dipshit Parent, you spent your last dime sending your daughter to a shitpit, and you found out that you still don't deserve her respect. Now there's absolutely nothing left you can do to her, no threats that will make her bow to your sick desires, and your friends' make-believe diagnosis of "reactive attachment disorder" (the only sane response to insane people pretending authority) won't help in the slightest. You have no future, no hope, and no options. Kill yourself.
My heart goes out to this uniquely strong-willed girl and hope that she shows up on Fornits soon.
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From another forum:
This is the first time I have ever joined in on anything like this but I need someone who will understand what we're going through. We have an adopted 15 year old daughter who we have had since birth. She was always strong willed and was diagnosed as ADHD at 8 yr old. Things got progressively worse over the next 5 years. The summer before high school she started getting heavily involved in drugs & alcohol. In Oct 2007 we sent her to a school in Utah for help. She came home a couple months ago after being there for 16 months. She actually graduated from the program and we were so proud. They diagnosed her there with RAD and we have read everything we could get our hands on and done everything all the therapists said but find out now the basically cheated the system and did whatever she had to do to get out of there. She had been home a little over 2 months and is right back where she was before or even worse. Dealing with a teenager with RAD is very different that dealing with an infant or toddler. She is rude, disrespectful and using consequences doesn't work. We are pretty much waiting for her to get picked up by the police but know that they will only bring her right back home which she has made very clear is the last place she wants to be. God help us - we love her but just don't know what to do.
This is so sad...I feel for those parents, I was in similar situation a couple of years ago with my daughter....it was hell...so I know what they are dealing with...
they are hurting, they are scared...and here comes SOMEONE with a solution: let her go to a school in Utah to get help....oh well...
I do not know how the people working in those schools can sleep at night...or do they really all believe they are doing the right thing? Do they never have any doubts? Who is allowed to work in such schools?
I think back of the only time when such a school was opened in my country...the Morava academy. After a couple of weeks the Czech teachers reported the school to the police...they learned quickly that the methods were abusive and against the law in my country...the Academy was closed short after...so I wonder...
Maruska,
I suggest you consider the harm that is done by stamping your daughter with these diagnostic labels. Think about how your communication will always be interpretted by her as coming from the perspective of "you have X wrong with you, and how I am treating you is because I love you and want to help you get better." She has no choice but to perceive any and all communication as a reflecton of your beliefs about her as being inherently wrong, even the expression of love and compassion are now coupled with the message "You have X wrong with you."
The research on RAD says: "RAD is characterized by markedly disturbed and developmentally inappropriate ways of relating socially in most contexts."
and "The few existing longitudinal studies (dealing with developmental change with age over a period of time) involve only children from poorly run Eastern European institutions."
"RAD is one of the least researched and most poorly understood disorders in the DSM. There is little systematic epidemiologic information on RAD, its course is not well established and it appears difficult to diagnose accurately." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactive_a ... t_disorder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactive_attachment_disorder)
I think you should let her know that this diagnosis of her doesn't hold much water, because it doesn't. What you have put her through in order to "fix" her is likely to produce the symptoms that qualify this label in anyone with this disorder. Think of how distressing a position you are putting her in. You are attacking her identity from the point of benevolence and love. She responds with an attack that you might view as extreme, if you don't consider how she feels in this position. Then you respond back to her with, "I'm just trying to help you because I love you. You are so ungrateful for all that I'm doing for you."
Now you are mantaining this label on her and propose to solve it, is this what you are going to do?
"Outside the mainstream programs is a form of treatment generally known as attachment therapy, a subset of techniques (and accompanying diagnosis) for supposed attachment disorders including RAD. In general, these therapies are aimed at adopted or fostered children with a view to creating attachment in these children to their new caregivers. The theoretical base is broadly a combination of regression and catharsis, accompanied by parenting methods which emphasize obedience and parental control.[89] There is considerable criticism of this form of treatment and diagnosis as it is largely unvalidated and has developed outside the scientific mainstream.[90] There is little or no evidence base and techniques vary from non-coercive therapeutic work to more extreme forms of physical, confrontational and coercive techniques, of which the best known are holding therapy, rebirthing, rage-reduction and the Evergreen model. These forms of the therapy may well involve physical restraint, the deliberate provocation of rage and anger in the child by physical and verbal means including deep tissue massage, aversive tickling, enforced eye contact and verbal confrontation, and being pushed to revisit earlier trauma.[91][92] Critics maintain that these therapies are not within the attachment paradigm, are potentially abusive,[93] and are antithetical to attachment theory.[9] The APSAC Taskforce Report of 2006 notes that many of these therapies concentrate on changing the child rather than the caregiver. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactive_a ... t_disorder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactive_attachment_disorder)
Guess what? This is exactly what you have already been doing by putting her through these programs! Attatchment therapy is also known as Bonding therapy and it was developed by the founder of the very first TBS model, Daytop, Dr. Daniel Casriel.
There was a page here on fornits for some general info.
viewtopic.php?f=31&t=28320&p=349559&hilit=casriel#p349559 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=28320&p=349559&hilit=casriel#p349559)
I’d be happy to share more about this with you, but my main point is you should tell her that you realize that you may have been wrong in placing these identity labels on her and that you understand they can be hurtful. If you let her know you have been misunderstanding her, maybe she will put forth some effort to help you understand what she is going through. Believe it or not, she might really want to communicate with you, and this might be the thing keeping it from happening. I’m not saying you can’t disagree with what she is doing, just don’t place a label on her that invalidates her basic self-worth.
Currently what you are telling her is that you believe there is something inherently wrong with her and she needs treatment. This “treatment” could hardly be seen by her as anything but punishment, yet you expect her to accept it as “help”. Now you are punishing her because she is (correctly) perceiving your punishment for what it truly is, punishment. She is supposed perceive your punishment as a form of positive regard. This is pathological communication.
I could recommend some reading that may help if you’d like, but I truly think considering this could help.
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The above posts reminds me of a forum one of the Danes mentioned awhile ago. On that forum the parents run around with their kids diagnoses and med intakes in their signatures. My instinctive response was, "WTF happened to the old bumper stickers that said honor roll student on board?"
I mean seriously, these kids have names, feelings, and entire belief systems. I'd suggest not programming them to walk around saying, "Hi, my name is bob, I have ADD and I take Adderal."
Sound odd?
Well it happens and when it does its damn disturbing.
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The above posts reminds me of a forum one of the Danes mentioned awhile ago. On that forum the parents run around with their kids diagnoses and med intakes in their signatures. My instinctive response was, "WTF happened to the old bumper stickers that said honor roll student on board?"
That would be http://http://www.conductdisorders.com, an openly-viewable forum populated entirely by "people" who should never have been breeding in the first place.
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From another forum:
This is the first time I have ever joined in on anything like this but I need someone who will understand what we're going through. We have an adopted 15 year old daughter who we have had since birth. She was always strong willed and was diagnosed as ADHD at 8 yr old. Things got progressively worse over the next 5 years. The summer before high school she started getting heavily involved in drugs & alcohol. In Oct 2007 we sent her to a school in Utah for help. She came home a couple months ago after being there for 16 months. She actually graduated from the program and we were so proud. They diagnosed her there with RAD and we have read everything we could get our hands on and done everything all the therapists said but find out now the basically cheated the system and did whatever she had to do to get out of there. She had been home a little over 2 months and is right back where she was before or even worse. Dealing with a teenager with RAD is very different that dealing with an infant or toddler. She is rude, disrespectful and using consequences doesn't work. We are pretty much waiting for her to get picked up by the police but know that they will only bring her right back home which she has made very clear is the last place she wants to be. God help us - we love her but just don't know what to do.
This is so sad...I feel for those parents, I was in similar situation a couple of years ago with my daughter....it was hell...so I know what they are dealing with...
they are hurting, they are scared...and here comes SOMEONE with a solution: let her go to a school in Utah to get help....oh well...
I do not know how the people working in those schools can sleep at night...or do they really all believe they are doing the right thing? Do they never have any doubts? Who is allowed to work in such schools?
I think back of the only time when such a school was opened in my country...the Morava academy. After a couple of weeks the Czech teachers reported the school to the police...they learned quickly that the methods were abusive and against the law in my country...the Academy was closed short after...so I wonder...
Maruska,
I suggest you consider the harm that is done by stamping your daughter with these diagnostic labels. Think about how your communication will always be interpretted by her as coming from the perspective of "you have X wrong with you, and how I am treating you is because I love you and want to help you get better." She has no choice but to perceive any and all communication as a reflecton of your beliefs about her as being inherently wrong, even the expression of love and compassion are now coupled with the message "You have X wrong with you."
The research on RAD says: "RAD is characterized by markedly disturbed and developmentally inappropriate ways of relating socially in most contexts."
and "The few existing longitudinal studies (dealing with developmental change with age over a period of time) involve only children from poorly run Eastern European institutions."
"RAD is one of the least researched and most poorly understood disorders in the DSM. There is little systematic epidemiologic information on RAD, its course is not well established and it appears difficult to diagnose accurately." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactive_a ... t_disorder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactive_attachment_disorder)
I think you should let her know that this diagnosis of her doesn't hold much water, because it doesn't. What you have put her through in order to "fix" her is likely to produce the symptoms that qualify this label in anyone with this disorder. Think of how distressing a position you are putting her in. You are attacking her identity from the point of benevolence and love. She responds with an attack that you might view as extreme, if you don't consider how she feels in this position. Then you respond back to her with, "I'm just trying to help you because I love you. You are so ungrateful for all that I'm doing for you."
Now you are mantaining this label on her and propose to solve it, is this what you are going to do?
"Outside the mainstream programs is a form of treatment generally known as attachment therapy, a subset of techniques (and accompanying diagnosis) for supposed attachment disorders including RAD. In general, these therapies are aimed at adopted or fostered children with a view to creating attachment in these children to their new caregivers. The theoretical base is broadly a combination of regression and catharsis, accompanied by parenting methods which emphasize obedience and parental control.[89] There is considerable criticism of this form of treatment and diagnosis as it is largely unvalidated and has developed outside the scientific mainstream.[90] There is little or no evidence base and techniques vary from non-coercive therapeutic work to more extreme forms of physical, confrontational and coercive techniques, of which the best known are holding therapy, rebirthing, rage-reduction and the Evergreen model. These forms of the therapy may well involve physical restraint, the deliberate provocation of rage and anger in the child by physical and verbal means including deep tissue massage, aversive tickling, enforced eye contact and verbal confrontation, and being pushed to revisit earlier trauma.[91][92] Critics maintain that these therapies are not within the attachment paradigm, are potentially abusive,[93] and are antithetical to attachment theory.[9] The APSAC Taskforce Report of 2006 notes that many of these therapies concentrate on changing the child rather than the caregiver. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactive_a ... t_disorder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactive_attachment_disorder)
Guess what? This is exactly what you have already been doing by putting her through these programs! Attatchment therapy is also known as Bonding therapy and it was developed by the founder of the very first TBS model, Daytop, Dr. Daniel Casriel.
There was a page here on fornits for some general info.
viewtopic.php?f=31&t=28320&p=349559&hilit=casriel#p349559 (http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=28320&p=349559&hilit=casriel#p349559)
I’d be happy to share more about this with you, but my main point is you should tell her that you realize that you may have been wrong in placing these identity labels on her and that you understand they can be hurtful. If you let her know you have been misunderstanding her, maybe she will put forth some effort to help you understand what she is going through. Believe it or not, she might really want to communicate with you, and this might be the thing keeping it from happening. I’m not saying you can’t disagree with what she is doing, just don’t place a label on her that invalidates her basic self-worth.
Currently what you are telling her is that you believe there is something inherently wrong with her and she needs treatment. This “treatment” could hardly be seen by her as anything but punishment, yet you expect her to accept it as “help”. Now you are punishing her because she is (correctly) perceiving your punishment for what it truly is, punishment. She is supposed perceive your punishment as a form of positive regard. This is pathological communication.
I could recommend some reading that may help if you’d like, but I truly think considering this could help.
Awake, Thank you so much for you post and I apologize....I did not express myself very good..when I said:
I feel for those parents, I was in similar situation a couple of years ago with my daughter...
what I meant was I was in similar situation ...not the same situation:)...my daughter started experimenting with alcohol and drugs ...I went through hell and I really feel for those parents...the fear I had for my child was terrible and I can really understand that when someone comes and says: we have the solution, send her to Utah and we will save her life, because you as parents are not capable of dealing with this situation, she will end up dead or in jail if you do not send her etc...I can understand that some parents just give in...
I had my friends, family and a great child psychologist who helped us with this situation...nobody suggested to send her away to get help...this is not the way we deal with those problems...and I would never even consider it! She will be 18 in a couple of months , heading for University . The terrible phase made her stronger, she learned from her mistakes, she matured, she is great! Oh I know she will make many more mistakes in her life...everybody does..such is life. But she knows her parents have been there for her every minute of her life, doing the hard work to parent her LOL..
That was the point of my post...how the people working for these programs and schools can sleep at night knowing that basically what they do is NOT working...That they are using this situation when every parent is so vulnerable..that they are offering "therapy" ..which in many cases either not works or even harms the children....
and I agree with you regarding RAD completely...and regarding labeling children with various diagnosis ...I think the situation in my country is not that bad ...the parents use their common sense (well most of them LOL).
So please accept my apology, to express myself clearly in English is not easy:))
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Awake, Thank you so much for you post and I apologize....I did not express myself very good..when I said:
I feel for those parents, I was in similar situation a couple of years ago with my daughter...
what I meant was I was in similar situation ...not the same situation:)...my daughter started experimenting with alcohol and drugs ...I went through hell and I really feel for those parents...the fear I had for my child was terrible and I can really understand that when someone comes and says: we have the solution, send her to Utah and we will save her life, because you as parents are not capable of dealing with this situation, she will end up dead or in jail if you do not send her etc...I can understand that some parents just give in...
Anyone who has had to raise a child has to go thru this. Almost all Kids will experiment with drugs and alcohol at one time or another during their teen years and 99.9% of the kids will be okay like yours was.
I had my friends, family and a great child psychologist who helped us with this situation...nobody suggested to send her away to get help...this is not the way we deal with those problems...and I would never even consider it! She will be 18 in a couple of months , heading for University . The terrible phase made her stronger, she learned from her mistakes, she matured, she is great! Oh I know she will make many more mistakes in her life...everybody does..such is life. But she knows her parents have been there for her every minute of her life, doing the hard work to parent her LOL..
Local services should always be the first option and they are very effective in most cases. But there are a small percentage of kids in which local services are ineffective for them and they become at-risk. At this point the parents need to make some hard decision of whether to seek further help outside the home or just let the child continue down that path and hope for the best. You were fortunate, Maruska, that you didn’t have to make this decision.
That was the point of my post...how the people working for these programs and schools can sleep at night knowing that basically what they do is NOT working...That they are using this situation when every parent is so vulnerable..that they are offering "therapy" ..which in many cases either not works or even harms the children....
If you have ever seen a child reunited with their family after attending a program and then move onto a happy life you would understand how these people not only sleep well at night but enjoy their jobs immensely. It is very rewarding. I think you have only been exposed to those children who have not responded well and therefore have formed your opinion on limited information.
and I agree with you regarding RAD completely...and regarding labeling children with various diagnosis ...I think the situation in my country is not that bad ...the parents use their common sense (well most of them LOL).
So please accept my apology, to express myself clearly in English is not easy:))
I don’t believe people should be labeled either, but at the same time we should not bury our heads in the sand an pretend there is not a problem.
If we picked a European country at random… say France. Many consider alcohol and drugs a non problem because they ignore the facts and the alcohol lobby suppresses information to the public. People in France sleep well at night because they are not aware of the facts. According to the WHO France has the highest alcoholism rate in the world. 45,000 people die each year from alcohol related issues.
"A third of all custodial sentences in this country, half of all domestic violence, a third of all handicaps are due to alcohol," he said. "One French person in 10 is ill as a result of alcohol, and every day five French people die after an accident linked to alcohol." He said 5 million drank too much, and 2 million were dependent on alcohol…………….. In greater Paris there were 245 hospital beds in specialist departments for alcohol-related problems,
Link (http://http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/nov/25/france.jonhenley)
I enjoy a good French wine in the evening. I also know that it is healthy for me. But we cannot make assumptions based on my experience or yours we need to step back and look at the larger picture to see where the harm really is taking place. It is important to keep an open mind and not form opinions too quickly.
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and I agree with you regarding RAD completely...and regarding labeling children with various diagnosis ...I think the situation in my country is not that bad ...the parents use their common sense (well most of them LOL).
So please accept my apology, to express myself clearly in English is not easy:))
I don’t believe people should be labeled either, but at the same time we should not bury our heads in the sand an pretend there is not a problem.
If we picked a European country at random… say France. Many consider alcohol and drugs a non problem because they ignore the facts and the alcohol lobby suppresses information to the public. People in France sleep well at night because they are not aware of the facts. According to the WHO France has the highest alcoholism rate in the world. 45,000 people die each year from alcohol related issues.
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I'm not sure I understand. In your first post you used the term "RADishes" as if you had some intimate knowledge and experience with it. Where does that come from if you don't mind me asking? It sounds like you feel you have an understanding for when and when not to use labels like RAD and Alchoholic. I think these things are so different you must be pretty knowledgeable to make such a broad connection.
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I'm not sure I understand. In your first post you used the term "RADishes" as if you had some intimate knowledge and experience with it. Where does that come from if you don't mind me asking?
It was kind of interesting, I knew a woman who had adopted several children and 2 of them had RAD. She referred to them as her little RADishes. The term caught on within the group she was with who had kids with RAD and I have seen it used more and more within that community of people.
It sounds like you feel you have an understanding for when and when not to use labels like RAD and Alchoholic. I think these things are so different you must be pretty knowledgeable to make such a broad connection.
My thinking here is that we are all labeled in one way or another but these labels don’t need to define who we are. People should be free to meet and get to know each other with a clean slate. I don’t think it is necessary to introduce someone as:
“This is my son, Jimmy, he has Leukemia or he has RAD. This is my brother Jake who just got out of prison for theft.”
Although the statements may be true they tend to bias a person’s initial perception and can be hard to overcome in a social situation. I just find it unnecessary, Awake, that’s all. When people on here call themselves survivors I don’t think they mean that this defines them. They could be carpenters, nurses etc. as well as a survivor. If people want to use them to define themselves that is fine, but others shouldn't do it. I hope this helps.
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Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010
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It sounds like you feel you have an understanding for when and when not to use labels like RAD and Alchoholic. I think these things are so different you must be pretty knowledgeable to make such a broad connection.
My thinking here is that we are all labeled in one way or another but these labels don’t need to define who we are.
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How can you avoid being defined by labels? What action do you suggest someone take to avoid allowing a label to define them?
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How can you avoid being defined by labels? What action do you suggest someone take to avoid allowing a label to define them?
One way is to pursue the path that “you” want to pursue and don’t listen to others. For example if you have attended a residential treatment facility and people label you a “survivor” it doesn’t mean that this has to define who you are. You can decide, on your own, that you want to finish college and become a nurse, doctor, lawyer or start your own business etc. You are defined by your actions and how you feel about yourself, not by labels others place on you.
...
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How can you avoid being defined by labels? What action do you suggest someone take to avoid allowing a label to define them?
One way is to pursue the path that “you” want to pursue and don’t listen to others. For example if you have attended a residential treatment facility and people label you a “survivor” it doesn’t mean that this has to define who you are. You can decide, on your own, that you want to finish college and become a nurse, doctor, lawyer or start your own business etc. You are defined by your actions and how you feel about yourself, not by labels others place on you.
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Whooter,
Do you make referrals to Aspen? If not, what is your role/relationship with Aspen?
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How can you avoid being defined by labels? What action do you suggest someone take to avoid allowing a label to define them?
One way is to pursue the path that “you” want to pursue and don’t listen to others. For example if you have attended a residential treatment facility and people label you a “survivor” it doesn’t mean that this has to define who you are. You can decide, on your own, that you want to finish college and become a nurse, doctor, lawyer or start your own business etc. You are defined by your actions and how you feel about yourself, not by labels others place on you.
...
Survivor is a label people choose. Even under the odd circumstance that someone might call someone a survivor, that person is free to openly object to it and expect the social environment to accept that statement. This does not qualify as being within the same context as a label like RAD
A child diagnosed with RAD cannot object to the label or the resulting treatment. This experience would be felt as an attack on anyone’s ability to feel secure in their environment. Forced embracing, holding, smothering, and expressions of love and sympathy that are normally reserved only for spontaneous, genuine, intimate human contact is extremely dangerous when used as a ritual tool in therapy. Children pick up on the nuances of social interaction quickly and realize that these expressions are not genuine personal expressions but only behaviors exhibited for manipulative purposes. You can’t fault them for then distrusting basic expressions of love in the outside world.
But I agree with you that one way we can define ourselves is by our actions, you are what you do, but you do what the situation demands of you. When someone has a significant enough power to dictate the fate of another based on their behavior, or a label can been placed on you which dictates how you are to be treated by other you cannot expect their behavior to be “theirs” and theirs alone. Consider these children here being treated for RAD with Attachment Therapy. We can hardly look at them and say to ourselves that they are truly owning their actions.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdDri7Bb ... re=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdDri7Bb8zE&feature=related)
I think anyone would agree that in such a situation they would behave in whatever way they thought would get them out of it the fastest, which incidentally would be to do whatever they said would achieve that result. This is the opposite of being an individual and being “you”.
How would you attempt to be yourself in this situation? How would you feel about yourself?
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Che, I just want you to know that I once had a bumper sticker on my car that said "My homeschooler kicked your honor roll student's ass". I miss that sticker! :waaaa:
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How can you avoid being defined by labels? What action do you suggest someone take to avoid allowing a label to define them?
One way is to pursue the path that “you” want to pursue and don’t listen to others. For example if you have attended a residential treatment facility and people label you a “survivor” it doesn’t mean that this has to define who you are. You can decide, on your own, that you want to finish college and become a nurse, doctor, lawyer or start your own business etc. You are defined by your actions and how you feel about yourself, not by labels others place on you.
...
Survivor is a label people choose. Even under the odd circumstance that someone might call someone a survivor, that person is free to openly object to it and expect the social environment to accept that statement. This does not qualify as being within the same context as a label like RAD
A child diagnosed with RAD cannot object to the label or the resulting treatment. This experience would be felt as an attack on anyone’s ability to feel secure in their environment. Forced embracing, holding, smothering, and expressions of love and sympathy that are normally reserved only for spontaneous, genuine, intimate human contact is extremely dangerous when used as a ritual tool in therapy. Children pick up on the nuances of social interaction quickly and realize that these expressions are not genuine personal expressions but only behaviors exhibited for manipulative purposes. You can’t fault them for then distrusting basic expressions of love in the outside world.
But I agree with you that one way we can define ourselves is by our actions, you are what you do, but you do what the situation demands of you. When someone has a significant enough power to dictate the fate of another based on their behavior, or a label can been placed on you which dictates how you are to be treated by other you cannot expect their behavior to be “theirs” and theirs alone. Consider these children here being treated for RAD with Attachment Therapy. We can hardly look at them and say to ourselves that they are truly owning their actions.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdDri7Bb ... re=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdDri7Bb8zE&feature=related)
I think anyone would agree that in such a situation they would behave in whatever way they thought would get them out of it the fastest, which incidentally would be to do whatever they said would achieve that result. This is the opposite of being an individual and being “you”.
How would you attempt to be yourself in this situation? How would you feel about yourself?
Awake, I agree that children cannot object to any label placed upon them, whether it be RAD, ADHD, Cancer victim, rape victim etc. until they become a certain age and even then they don’t have control.
I personally don’t think it is wise to form an opinion of treatment based on a youtube video. One would need to research RAD and determine for themselves the treatment that would best fit their child. Exposure to Radiation, for example, can be deadly yet we openly embrace underpaid and undertrained people to expose our children to it every day with the hope that it will cure their cancer. These children are physically restrained and drugged against their will and exposed to high doses of Radiation that could destroy their internal organs and alter their life outcome.
If someone constructed a similar youtube video of these restrained children being forced fed radiation therapy we would all be similarly enraged if we didn’t understand it. Likewise these children would do or say whatever it took to escape that day of treatment if they could.
If we didn’t understand the positive effects of radiation treatment we may be justified in breaking into the room, assaulting the people restraining and poisoning that child and freeing the child from possible death.
I agree that the video is compelling but Education is the key to understanding RAD and its available treatments. This is a sensitive topic to many and even some professionals disagree on treatment options because it is relatively new.
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I don’t think we are on the same page here, Whooter. You said
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My thinking here is that we are all labeled in one way or another but these labels don’t need to define who we are. People should be free to meet and get to know each other with a clean slate.
If people want to use them to define themselves that is fine, but others shouldn't do it.
I think that is something we should all strive for.
You are also saying you define the self in terms of what you do, actions, behaviours, and how you feel about yourself. I agree this is one way to evaluate ourselves.
[ You are defined by your actions and how you feel about yourself, not by labels others place on you.
I agree that, in part, YOU ARE WHAT YOU DO. But I will take it from your silence that you do not object to what I said.
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But I agree with you that one way we can define ourselves is by our actions, you are what you do, but you do what the situation demands of you. When someone has a significant enough power to dictate the fate of another based on their behavior, or a label can been placed on you which dictates how you are to be treated by other you cannot expect their behavior to be “theirs” and theirs alone.
In short, You are what you do, you do what the situation demands of you, if someone is controlling your situation they are accountable for what you do. Therefore, in such a situation, what you do is not you. It would be a mistake to hold the children in the video accountable for their actions in this situation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdDri7Bb ... re=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdDri7Bb8zE&feature=related)
(I also wouldn’t expect others to make judgements based on a simple video, but it would not betray descriptions of attachment therapy or bonding therapy. My experience was chillingly similar, so maybe I can sympathize a bit more)
You also said,
How can you avoid being defined by labels? What action do you suggest someone take to avoid allowing a label to define them?
One way is to pursue the path that “you” want to pursue and don’t listen to others.
What you are saying here is that THE LABEL MAKES IT IMPOSSIBLE TO PURSUE A PATH THAT IS “YOU” WHICH MAKES IT IMPOSSIBLE TO AVOID BEING DEFINED BY LABELS.
You justify labelling by concluding that labels don’t NEED to define who we are.
[
My thinking here is that we are all labeled in one way or another but these labels don’t need to define who we are.
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But if you are what you do, and what you do is under someone else’s control because of a label, then the label DOES define who you are. Try as you might you cannot avoid it in this circumstance.
You also say
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Awake, I agree that children cannot object to any label placed upon them, whether it be RAD, ADHD, Cancer victim, rape victim etc. until they become a certain age and even then they don’t have control.
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This constitutes the danger. The child cannot object, the label will define him/her, and will undermine their ability to define themselves within the social environment. This basically amounts to someone who’s social power is decommissioned, you cannot underestimate how devastating and alienating that experience would be. (On a related note, I disagree that “Cancer victim” and ”rape victim” are labels that children cannot object to. If a child were to say, “No, I am not a victim, I am a rape “Survivor” it would sure raise some eyebrows if the parents, caregivers etc. were to object to using it. It may not seem like much of a change, but it can make a big difference in how people feel.)
I would simplify what appears to me to be what we are agreeing on.
Some labels that are placed on us can and do define who we are. Those labels create a social context that makes it impossible to avoid being defined. Therefore the label has the power to stop you from pursuing a path that is you, producing actions that are yours, YET THE SOCIAL ENVIRONMENT WILL HOLD YOU ACCOUNTABLE FOR THOSE ACTIONS WITH THE (mis)UNDERSTANDING THAT THE LABEL IS THE PERSON, PART OF WHAT DEFINES THEM, AND IS THE EXPLANATION FOR THE BEHAVIOR, WHEN THE LABEL ITSELF IS REALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR THE BEHAVIOR.
So getting back to one of your earlier statements, you said,
[ You are defined by your actions and how you feel about yourself, not by labels others place on you.
I think you mean to say, “you are defined by your actions, how you feel about youself, and in certain circumstances, you ARE defined by labels others place on you.”
I think the dangers of this are worth discussing.
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I would simplify what appears to me to be what we are agreeing on.
Some labels that are placed on us can and do define who we are. Those labels create a social context that makes it impossible to avoid being defined. Therefore the label has the power to stop you from pursuing a path that is you, producing actions that are yours, YET THE SOCIAL ENVIRONMENT WILL HOLD YOU ACCOUNTABLE FOR THOSE ACTIONS WITH THE (mis)UNDERSTANDING THAT THE LABEL IS THE PERSON, PART OF WHAT DEFINES THEM, AND IS THE EXPLANATION FOR THE BEHAVIOR, WHEN THE LABEL ITSELF IS REALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR THE BEHAVIOR.
You make some good points awake and I see what you are saying. The label does take on a power of its own and there are certain aspects that you cannot control. One being how people perceive you upon seeing or hearing about your label.
Not sure if you are familiar with "The Scarlet Letter" or not but take Hester for example. She had no control over the label placed upon her or the way people viewed her but she was able to redefine herself and look beyond the label and focus on raising her daughter Pearl. In Hester's own mind, over time, the label no longer defined who she was. She had become a good and caring mother. So even underneath the weight of her social stigma she prevailed and was able to live a happier life than most of the other woman in her social circle….. The stigma was still there and people judged her but the label no longer defined her.
For the longest time my Avatar was labeled with “Aspen’s Goebbels”. This label was placed there to discredit my posts and was a punishment for not going along with the group think here on fornits. I chose my own path, think independently and that is not taken very well here (as many people know all too well). Even though I am not a part of Aspen nor a member of the Nazi party some people, upon viewing my avatar, judged me as an "evil industry person" lol. So in some respects the label was effective in discrediting my point of view. But in my own mind I know who I am and this prevailed in most cases and people were able to look beyond this label placed upon me and see me for who I am.
In Hesters case the Label "did" alter her behavior because she had no choice, she couldn’t leave and she had a daughter to raise. In my case the label only affected me here on fornits and I was able to come and go as I pleased so it didn’t affect who I was or soften my point of view.
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I would simplify what appears to me to be what we are agreeing on.
Some labels that are placed on us can and do define who we are. Those labels create a social context that makes it impossible to avoid being defined. Therefore the label has the power to stop you from pursuing a path that is you, producing actions that are yours, YET THE SOCIAL ENVIRONMENT WILL HOLD YOU ACCOUNTABLE FOR THOSE ACTIONS WITH THE (mis)UNDERSTANDING THAT THE LABEL IS THE PERSON, PART OF WHAT DEFINES THEM, AND IS THE EXPLANATION FOR THE BEHAVIOR, WHEN THE LABEL ITSELF IS REALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR THE BEHAVIOR.
You make some good points awake and I see what you are saying. The label does take on a power of its own and there are certain aspects that you cannot control. One being how people perceive you upon seeing or hearing about your label.
Not sure if you are familiar with "The Scarlet Letter" or not but take Hester for example. She had no control over the label placed upon her or the way people viewed her but she was able to redefine herself and look beyond the label and focus on raising her daughter Pearl. In Hester's own mind, over time, the label no longer defined who she was. She had become a good and caring mother. So even underneath the weight of her social stigma she prevailed and was able to live a happier life than most of the other woman in her social circle….. The stigma was still there and people judged her but the label no longer defined her.
For the longest time my Avatar was labeled with “Aspen’s Goebbels”. This label was placed there to discredit my posts and was a punishment for not going along with the group think here on fornits. I chose my own path, think independently and that is not taken very well here (as many people know all too well). Even though I am not a part of Aspen nor a member of the Nazi party some people, upon viewing my avatar, judged me as an "evil industry person" lol. So in some respects the label was effective in discrediting my point of view. But in my own mind I know who I am and this prevailed in most cases and people were able to look beyond this label placed upon me and see me for who I am.
In Hesters case the Label "did" alter her behavior because she had no choice, she couldn’t leave and she had a daughter to raise. In my case the label only affected me here on fornits and I was able to come and go as I pleased so it didn’t affect who I was or soften my point of view.
I haven’t read that book. It does sound like an interesting story though, and you make some interesting comparisons to your own experience with labels here on fornits. When you say,
“In my case the label only affected me here on fornits and I was able to come and go as I pleased so it didn’t affect who I was or soften my point of view. “
I don’t think quite so many people realize how important the ability to withdraw from the field is for someone to maintain a stable and secure sense of self. If you spend enough time in a situation in which your identity is being attacked and you can’t withdraw yourself, a person can, and likely will, simply become ‘withdrawn’. This is yet another label the individual is held responsible for.
If the subject is prevented from withdrawing from the field, is then being continually held accountable for being withdrawn and is under constant pressure to overcome this negative label, you are setting up a classic context for a person to develop a dissociated sense of self.
You are in effect asking the person to stop acting on reality but be sensitive to and act on the false reality presented by the social body in control of their environment. In order to act functionally within the “reality” created by the social environment, this person has to teach themselves to properly anticipate and create imaginary “reality constructs” to match the demands of the group. The result is a dissociated sense of self in which a person suppresses their natural, spontaneous reactions to the environment, and must be constantly re-interpretting the experience, that they feel is real, to produce an outward appearance that will match the “reality” imposed by the group.
None of this is new. This conceptual theory of how mental illness develops has been explored and it’s history also produced divisions concerning the ethical use of force in therapy. It also inspired new theories and many bodies of work concerning techniques of coercive persuasion specifically for use in therapeutic settings with clients resistant to therapy.
Are you familiar with any of this?
Here is the theoretical root that describes the danger of the situation we are talking about.
“TOWARDS A THEORY OF SCHIZOPHRENIA (1956) Gregory Bateson, Don D. Jackson, Jay Haley, and John Weakland
This is a report on a research project which has been formulating and testing a broad systematic view of the nature, etiology, and therapy of Schizophrenia…… We have now reached common agreement on broad outlines of a communicational theory of the origin and nature of Schizophrenia; this paper is a preliminary report on our continuing research.
we must look NOT for some specific traumatic experience in the infantile etiology but rather for characteristic sequential patterns…. The sequences MUST have this characteristic: that from that the patient will aquire the mental habits which are exemplified in schizophrenic communication. That is to say, HE MUST LIVE IN A UNIVERSE WHERE THE SEQUENCE OF EVENTS ARE SUCH THAT HIS UNCONVENTIONAL COMMUNICATION HABITS WILL BE IN SOME SENSE APPROPRIATE.
The hypothesis that we offer is that sequences of this kind in the external experience of the patient are responsible for the inner conflicts of Logical Typing. For such unresolvable sequences of experiences, we use the term DOUBLE BIND.
THE DOUBLE BIND
The necessary ingredients for a Double Bind situation, as we see it, are:
1. Two or more persons.- Of these we designate one, for purposes of our definition, as the “Victim”…..
2. Repeated experience.- …. The Double Bind structure comes to be an habitual expectation.
3. A primary negative injunction.- This may have either of two forms: ( a) Do not do so and so or I will punish you, or (b) If you do not do so and so, I will punish you…. We assume that punishment may either be the withdrawal of love or the expression of hate or anger- or, most devastating, the kind of abandonment that results from the parent’s expression of extreme helplessness.
4. A secondary injunction conflicting with the first at a more abstract level, and like the first enforced by punishments or signals which threaten survival.- This secondary injunction is more difficult to describe than the primary for two reasons. First, the secondary injunctionis commonly communicated to the child through non-verbal means. Posture, gesture, tone of voice, meaningful action, and the implications concealed in verbal comment may all be used to convey this more abstract message. Second, the secondary injunction may, therefore, include a wide variety of forms; for example, “Do not see this as punishment” ; “Do not see me as a punishing agent”; “Do not submit to my prohibitions”: “Do not think of what you must not do”; Do not question my love of which the primary prohibition is (or is not) an example” and so on….
6. A tertiary negative injunction prohibiting the victim from escaping from the field.- …. It seems that in some cases the escape from the field is made impossible by certain devices which are not purely negative, e.g. capricious promises of love, and the like.
7. Finally the complete set of ingredients is no longer necessary when the victim has learned to perceive his universe in Double Bind patterns. Almost any part of the Double Bind sequence may then be sufficient to precipitate panic or rage. The pattern of conflicting injunctions may even be taken over by hallucinatory voices.”
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Believe it or not there have been at least a few experimental settings (that I know of) that experimented on groups utilizing this simple formula and were successful in not only reproducing schizophrenic symptoms, but noted that if the experiment did not reveal it’s purpose to the subjects after the fact that the symptoms persisted. Subjects that were told about it afterwards did not retain the resulting symptoms. As well, the ingredients of the Double Bind have been maintained and analyzed within an institutional setting. Moreso I have read that further considerations concerning social experimentation of the Double Bind were not pursued because it is simply unethical to produce, or even try to produce, such a state even in voluntary subjects for the reason that the true beliefs of the experimenters cannot overtly be made known for it to work.
There is a great deal to discuss in this area, but I want to take our conversation topic a bit further to say, IN SOME CASES LABELS HAVE THE POWER TO CAUSE MENTAL ILLNESS.
In cases like we have been discussing, and in the cases of the children in the video, (for now I will submit that it is debatable as to how well it represents typical treatment, nevertheless represents the context described in the Double Bind.)
I would consider watching this video again, observing the actions of the children and reconsidering just what is going on in the scene before you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdDri7Bb ... re=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdDri7Bb8zE&feature=related)
There are children wildly catharting, sobbing having given up any struggle against the therapists even when being forcibly restained, intense pressure to express anger to “get the rage out of them”, the child is directed to not just recant but ‘re-live’ past trauma (which the child does act out, and is seemingly distraught).
There is a child restrained within blankets under the pretense that he is reliving pre-natal trauma and is expected to purge himself of that pain. (In my opinion he seems to be struggling to give his therapists the genuine reaction that the therapists want).
During the process the therapist asks the child if he trusts them. He says yes. Can you trust the childs word on this? Can you hold him accountable for his answer?
One of the therapists in the video says, “We can’t make children have feelings. Everyone has a feeling. What we do is help them identify those feelings.” (Are those feelings really theirs, or is it just what they are showing in this situation?)
Whooter, you said we are (in part) defined by how we feel.
I think another important question to ask is can someone control how you feel? Or even further can expressed misinterpretation of genuine emotional signals actually teach a person that expressing that emotion will not achieve the desired cathartic effect?
If so, would a reasonable defense be to repress the emotion entirely? Or is it possible a developing child (as in the video) might even learn to completely confuse signals of love and fear coming from their social environment? Based on this situation is it possible that a child could be taught to produce signals implying openness and love AS A DEFENSE when threatened with confrontation and states of fear?
Later in the video a psychologist identifies this kind of bonding behaviour as “trauma bonding that you see in people who are taken hostage”.
I think we can see that the behaviors of the children can be linked to the guided experience given to them by the therapists, and that the experience could be considered traumatic to anyone.
It was also later compared to brainwashing. I don’t know if I would qualify it on those exact terms, but it is easy for me to see why such a comparison would be drawn.
Nearer the end of the video a woman (who seems to have developed within the social norm) relates her childhood experience with bonding therapy saying, “ I would fake my way out of it, because I didn’t want to do what they were making me do.”
This is the perfect implication of what we should consider is really taking place in the video. The children are producing the symptoms of the illness AS A DEFENSE AGAINST THE LABEL THAT HAS BEEN PLACED ON THEM WHICH PUTS THEM IN THAT THREATENING SITUATION. THE THERAPISTS ARE DEMANDING THAT, FOR THE CHILDREN TO PROGRESS AND LEAVE THERAPY, THE CHILDREN PRODUCE THE VERY SYMPTOMS OF THE ILLNESS THEY ARE LABELLED AS.
THEIR ONLY DEFENSE IS TO ADMIT THEY ARE ILL!
One thing I asked you previously in this conversation that I want you to ask yourself again is, “How would you attempt to be “you” in this situation? How would you feel about yourself?... and I would even broaden that to question that in some cases people will actually TRUST the reality presented by the social environment and TAKE ON THE FALSE BELIEF THAT THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE ACTIONS LABELED AS “THEIRS”, AND AS WELL, SOLELY ACCOUNTABLE FOR THEIR FEELINGS IN THAT SITUATION, AND HENCE CAN EVEN BELIEVE IN THEIR OWN ADMISSION OF ILLNESS. ( At best I wish you to take these questions as rhetorical just for your consideration in these matters.)
A was just about to go on and on at length about how my own experience, but if a picture was worth a thousand words, and the video with the RAD treatment equalled a novel, you would be in for alot of reading to encompass my experience.
One major difference was that I was l not labelled ‘RAD’ but ‘Troubled Teen’.
As a result I was restrained by my peers within the context that the choice to “fight for my life or die” was mine, and the result of which I was held accountable for. I was directed and forced to recant, relive and cathart over ‘assumed’ past traumas, and once I acted on their direction, I was under constant threat of punishment (under the guise of help and therapy) to ritually re-display the emotional purge associated with that event in order to get ‘better’ and progress in therapy. I was pressured under the social environment to verbally attack my friends.
It was dictated to me that, in order to get better, I express (with every fiber of my being, “scream with your whole body” ... if you can make sense of that) in therapy my rejection and hatred for every member of my family, Mother, Father, and Brother. I was held accountable. I won’t go on, but it goes on.
You said you have struggled against labels yourself here on fornits. You said people should be free to meet with a clean slate. You said if people want to use labels to define themselves that is fine, but other’s shouldn’t do it.
You have a clean slate with me. At this point you can define yourself to me in any way you’d like and I will respond with the common courtesy of taking your word for that. Our continued interaction, and a focused discussion along clear, logical lines of thought are all that are necessary here.
I, like you, don’t want labels attached to me either. I am not “just one of a few bad apples” or “ a small percentage of people that did not do well”, (which are labels I myself have felt were to my opposition on this board).
Instead I would preffer you to give me the same courtesy you would a rape victim, or cancer victim who actually preffer to be reffered to as “Survivor”
I am a survivor, and I’d like to be respected as such. So, my hand is out. Can you honor that?
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That would be nice, Awake, to give each other the respect we deserve based on what we know about each other.
It seems the problem people may have with the video is: “We are only being shown the process”. We haven’t been shown the kids before and after treatment. They interviewed a woman who faked it and is fine (although she wasn’t in a social situation, husband, family etc. around) and a woman who had a child that died sometime after treatment.
If, for example, the interview was conducted on a person who never received treatment and was in prison for murder and another person who completed treatment and was functioning well in society, Then showed how these children behaved prior to treatment the viewer may not judge the treatment as harsh and many would praise it.
So I think we are being lead to believe the treatment is ineffective and abusive. This is what I got out of the youtube clip.
If we transported a doctor and a nurse performing open heart surgery on a patient back to the 18th century and people walked in on them they would be tried for murder or attempted murder and quickly hung for their crimes. This would be justified because the people judging them never had the benefit of seeing this patient prior to surgery (heart attack, unresponsive) or after (recovering nicely). The people walking into the room only saw a man cutting another man open while he was being restrained and that is what we are being shown.
If kids believe killing and torture of family members and family pets is okay and normal (and actively trying to do so) then maybe brainwashing or altering their self perception and perception of “good and bad” may be helpful to them. Without intervention I cant see these children having a future functioning in society.
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