Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => Straight, Inc. and Derivatives => Topic started by: starry-eyed pirate on November 11, 2009, 02:25:05 AM
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...The second you pretended to go along with the program; the minute you decided to "fake it" until you could run, you made yourself open and vulnerable to brainwash. As soon as you began to just pretend you took the fatal sip.
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...The second you pretended to go along with the program; the minute you decided to "fake it" until you could run, you made yourself open and vulnerable to brainwash. As soon as you began to just pretend you took the fatal sip.
Like a crack in a dam that only gets bigger?
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...The second you pretended to go along with the program; the minute you decided to "fake it" until you could run, you made yourself open and vulnerable to brainwash. As soon as you began to just pretend you took the fatal sip.
Yup. Once you start to compromise your values via your actions, it really is a slippery slope from there.
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yeah, like this tune by STYX?
Written by tommy shaw
Lead vocals by tommy shaw
You see the world through your cynical eyes
You're a troubled young man i can tell
You've got it all in the palm of your hand
But your hand's wet with sweat and your head needs a rest
And you're fooling yourself if you don't believe it
You're kidding yourself if you don't believe it
How can you be such an angry young man
When your future looks quite bright to me
How can there be such a sinister plan
That could hide such a lamb, such a caring young man
You're fooling yourself if you don't believe it
You're kidding yourself if you don't believe it
Get up, get back on your feet
You're the one they can't beat and you know it
Come on, let's see what you've got
Just take your best shot and don't blow it
You're fooling yourself if you don't believe it
You're killing yourself if you don't believe it
Get up, get back on your feet
You're the one they can't beat and you know it
Come on, let's see what you've got
Just take your best shot and don't blow it
:jamin: :peace: :rasta:
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...The second you pretended to go along with the program; the minute you decided to "fake it" until you could run, you made yourself open and vulnerable to brainwash. As soon as you began to just pretend you took the fatal sip.
Like a crack in a dam that only gets bigger?
Yeah, what a fucking ordeal. I thought I had it licked and everyone was treating me like a hero. But then the fanfare died down and no one was looking, that's when I got my ass kicked!
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...The second you pretended to go along with the program; the minute you decided to "fake it" until you could run, you made yourself open and vulnerable to brainwash. As soon as you began to just pretend you took the fatal sip.
Like a crack in a dam that only gets bigger?
Yeah, what a fucking ordeal. I thought I had it licked and everyone was treating me like a hero. But then the fanfare died down and no one was looking, that's when I got my ass kicked!
:D
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...The second you pretended to go along with the program; the minute you decided to "fake it" until you could run, you made yourself open and vulnerable to brainwash. As soon as you began to just pretend you took the fatal sip.
this is truth. very important point, especially if you're trying to figure out where you went wrong. fake it until you can run, def rememnber that.
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yeah, like this tune by STYX?
Written by tommy shaw
Lead vocals by tommy shaw
You see the world through your cynical eyes
You're a troubled young man i can tell
You've got it all in the palm of your hand..........(time to smash the stereo)
:jamin: :peace: :rasta:
Personally, I found it doable, but extremely hard to pull off. The whole time I was on fourth phse, I knew I was going to leave from school, but as I was biding my time, I would get nervous or find myself starting to lose the facade I was putting on in the building and at the foster home. Once I actually left was when I began to realize what a number Straight had done on my head.
On a side note, anyone who thinks that Styx lyrics are some kind of profound illustration of anything other than a desire by cheesy record execs and talentless songwriters to make a pile of $$$ off of masses of idiots is indeed, a massive idiot themself.
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You all had me convinced! I was always like, how can they just go along?! I never got it. Then staff would say to me... If you really were normal w/o a drug problem, you would just go through the program easily and accept it as a great learning experience... And since you can't conform, you must really need to be here...
LOL, You all fooled me =( And I thought I must be a complete failure since I couldn't just conform like all the "normal" people in there.
ps: I admit though, I was secretly glad to see the people who did run get put back into group.. Because... I knew there were people out there in those blue chairs who knew what I knew. It was like finally a validation.. and there were people "on my side" who were in there with me.
I don't know how to explain that easily, but it made me feel safer knowing people who ran were back in there with me. It made me feel protected somehow, it let me hold on to some of my sanity. Cop outs were so naughtily hawt ;p
Hah, Cop outs are still hawt <3
Man, I wanted to run.. I just never did. It that way, I had given up, and facts were.. I had no idea where I was or how to get near home.
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...The second you pretended to go along with the program; the minute you decided to "fake it" until you could run, you made yourself open and vulnerable to brainwash. As soon as you began to just pretend you took the fatal sip.
The reason this worked is bc the minute you went along, or lied about who you were, you were brainwashing each other. These programs are designed to prevent you from showing each other that you don't believe in what you are doing, therefore it makes it impossible to feel sure about your perceptions of the other person (people) in regards to their actions. Essentially they create a social situation in which the most crucial component is that those involved "act as if" (this phrase can be referenced to synanon and Daytop NY and co founder Dan Casriel), meaning just go with the program and trust the process. The thing is once you behave in a certain way people will respond to what you are communicating to them as being yourself. When each of us is introduced as a single addition to a social environment that has acheived a stable homeostasis (i.e. each has adopted habitual interractive behavior patterns under certain social rules and environmental restrictions) it is very hard to resist or disarm the overall "game" the group has adopted. You realize quickly that your normal behaviors will not be tolerated, so you repress them, you are expected to abide by rules and you decide the best way to play along is to model the behavior of your peers to best hide amongst them, but this is the failing defense because first impressions are everything.
Once you act like someone else, especially when you're new, no one can communicate with you the way they do when they know you. Then you have to respond to them when they behave with you as though you are this person you are not. Add to that the strange bonding effect of being together in a survival situation where you need each other (or feel like it) to get through it and your faith in your relationships then becomes a validation of the other persons "fake" presentation of themselves, and since the relationship is self reflexive, you are validating your own fake self as real.
This is where the ambiguity you feel about the social context actually becomes ambiguity about yourself and what was an act can become real.
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I have talked to a lot of people who have claimed that they faked their way through and didn't get brainwashed.....and then a few minutes of retrospection and these people who didn't get broken down start to cry as they realize that they had, in fact, slid down this slippery slope mentioned by the OP. They often will admit that they were damaged by this but didn't realize it after thinking about post-program incidences where program thinking hobbled parts of their lives.
And when you get out, there are certain things that actually can be useful in recovering from the trauma of the program. Unfortunately, these tools that could be of aid to us were made into tools of torment and torure so we naturally have an aversion to them. Psychotherapy, self-analysis, the steps, serenity prayer, god, church, discipline, responsibility etc. are all things that are useful to people who need some psychological guidance when problems arise. But we associated these tools with evils of the program and avoided them like the plague. Because these tools (and songs) had been made into implements of torture, we wanted nothing to do with them and self betterment subsequently fell by the wayside. Just another reason we couldn't seem to right ourselves when down on our luck. Try to be a carpenter in a world of carpenters after you have been tortured with a hammer; try driving nails with your shoe and see how well you do in life. That is life, post-program.
I don't think anyone gets out unscathed, whether they think so or not.
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Facts can be twisted to create a reality different than what is TRULY real.Straight was a perfect example.
Fact 1---I was an extremely unhappy kid before I got there(a runaway)
Fact 2---I had experimented with drugs other than Marijuana
These became twisted to make Straight appear necessary.Now let's look at the other facts,ignored or Straight would have looked to be the farce it really was
Ignored fact 1---I stopped the other drugs only smoking pot to sleep
Ignored fact 2---I didn't runaway from home so I could use drugs,I left home to get away from the same person that my mother herself wanted to get away from
Ignored fact 3---I am not,nor never was a drug addict
ignored fact 4---my world was filled by creatures only related by marriage with their own personal agendas,where my constant presence only conflicted with those agendas.
Being the fact that supposedly anything was okay to discuss in group,mentioning these IGNORED facts would have turned me into a heretic in the warehouse.
While everybody was told to say I love you,the ignored fact was nobody really gave a damn about anyone.The true theme was about each ones individual survival.As bad as staying was,most of us who did stayed not because we wanted to.it was because we truly believed and bought into the lie that leaving with out the pass was far more detrimental than staying until we got it.The pass being graduating or Seven Stepping.Once we bought into that lie,we were ready to advance in our phases.I was faking being happy to be there.I wasn't.At the same time I was falling for the great lie that these were just dues being paid for some everlasting serenity awaiting me and somehow believed the program necessary.
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I have talked to a lot of people who have claimed that they faked their way through and didn't get brainwashed.....and then a few minutes of retrospection and these people who didn't get broken down start to cry as they realize that they had, in fact, slid down this slippery slope mentioned by the OP.
Yup. It's a transparent process. Reminds me of myself when I first got out.
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...The second you pretended to go along with the program; the minute you decided to "fake it" until you could run, you made yourself open and vulnerable to brainwash. As soon as you began to just pretend you took the fatal sip.
Like a crack in a dam that only gets bigger?
Well, yeah, but not quite the point I think. What I mean to say is that as soon as you begin to motivate you have lost psychological ground and given the program it's entry point and from there it's like a crack in the dam. I was tellin the story of my day 64 cop-out to some friends the other day, and when I got to the part about how when I was able to talk with my (druggie) girlfriend, for the first time since escaping, my vocabulary had already been altered to the point where using any kind of slang just came out awkward and forced and unnatural, leaving an uneasy silence in it's wake; like when Pinnochio tries to speak, but brays instead. The minute you allowed them to modify your behavior even if not your thoughts at first, you began to lose yourself into the cult.
The weird thing was even if you knew you were bein manipulated and believed you were just fakin it, that didn't really prevent the brainwash from gettin in. So you could be sitting there in group with your meta-cult(that's my own word, "meta-cult", meanin beyond the cult) awareness and a secret plan to escape once you made 2nd phase, and yet with every day, every hour that passed you were ever more indoctrinated into the cult. By using the accepted language of the cult and participating in group every day you would slowly but surely lose your meta-cult perspective.
Even Withdraw who didn't ever motivate says she was brainwashed to some degree too by the time she was terminated. Hi Withdraw.
I might have more to consider on this subject later but that's all for now.
I thought it was a point worth posting. Thanks for all the interesting responses.
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What I mean to say is that as soon as you begin to motivate you have lost psychological ground and given the program it's entry point and from there it's like a crack in the dam. I was tellin the story of my day 64 cop-out to some friends the other day, and when I got to the part about how when I was able to talk with my (druggie) girlfriend, for the first time since escaping, my vocabulary had already been altered to the point where using any kind of slang just came out awkward and forced and unnatural, leaving an uneasy silence in it's wake; like when Pinnochio tries to speak, but brays instead. The minute you allowed them to modify your behavior even if not your thoughts at first, you began to lose yourself into the cult.
The weird thing was even if you knew you were bein manipulated and believed you were just fakin it, that didn't really prevent the brainwash from gettin in. So you could be sitting there in group with your meta-cult(that's my own word, "meta-cult", meanin beyond the cult) awareness and a secret plan to escape once you made 2nd phase, and yet with every day, every hour that passed you were ever more indoctrinated into the cult. By using the accepted language of the cult and participating in group every day you would slowly but surely lose your meta-cult perspective.
Even Withdraw who didn't ever motivate says she was brainwashed to some degree too by the time she was terminated. Hi Withdraw.
I might have more to consider on this subject later but that's all for now.
I thought it was a point worth posting. Thanks for all the interesting responses.
Definitely worth posting; the responses have been thought-provoking, to say the least...
"Meta-cult," I like that, too...
Also, I get (yes, all too well) the Pinocchio analogy, being familiar with the film/story... I had plenty of those awkward moments when i finally got out of there...
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You know, I was thinking about this since I read the posts yesterday and I see even now in my life I am having to do this. As most of you know, I am very alternative thinking, and atm am in college in the Nursing program. I do have to be someone I am not use to being in an attempt to be successful in school. I am not sure if I am "faking" it or if I am in fact just finally growing up ;p But I am certainly not the person I was just a few years ago. Maybe I am just conforming to the normative rules of college until I get finished.. and then the "True" me can flourish again. I am not sure. In a lot of ways I sorta hope both is true, I hope I get to be both free spirited and disciplined at the same time. (If that makes any sense)
Geesh, I hope I still believe in Pixie dust and wishing on shooting stars when I am done school. It worries me a little....
And Pirate is right, I experienced some weird behaviors post straight. I never will forget.. After I got out, a few of my favorite straight friends who had been terminated or graduated had called me and I thought they were some pre-straight friends calling and I freaked out and said... "I can't talk to my DRUGGIE friends anymore...sorry" Of course these people then told me who they were.. and I was so shocked at myself that I had used those words "DRUGGIE FRIENDS" .. I mean wtf, I didn't even have actual druggie friends before straight, ROFL. But that straight think had even gotten in my head.. the head that always faced the floor and didn't motivate to speak.
And Hi all my favorite Fornits! <3 You all will never know how you helped me change my life and what you mean to me. Words just aren't enough.
Peace2you!
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I remember resisiting/misbehaving off and on for a month or so after being put in the program. Then one friday night in an open meeting review rap I got stood up and blasted for my lack of cooperation. I blurted out that i thought my father would come get me out of the program eventually. I was told in no uncertain terms that no one was coming for me and that I would never leave the program. I was blasted with that statement over and over and over until 30 minutes of yelling cursing and threatening had reduced my 15 year old mind to mush. I sat down and immediately knew that I had to cooperate to ever have a chance of leaving hell. I began to motivate that evening and thus began a year and a half descent into full scale brainwashing. I thought at first that it would just last until I got a good chance to run but gradually I began to believe it all. Finally, towards the end I would have done virtually anything the staff told me to do. All the terrible things that were done and said to me I then turned around and did to others. After all, you had to hurt people in order to help them, right? Yes, it was a descent into hell that started for real when I thought I could just make it easier on myself and "fake it" until I could run.
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You know the funny part? I am living proof that those fkrs lied. They always said the sooner you conform, the sooner and easier it will be to get out. I cared "how" I got out, and I would never have hurt anyone to make it easier on myself. Don't misunderstand me, I don't judge anyone for it now.. But it is the part I can never understand, why? Why did so many people believe them? I mean, I didn't conform and I was outta there in 6.5 months. Yea, it was brutal.. but it worked faster than conforming.
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I have talked to a lot of people who have claimed that they faked their way through and didn't get brainwashed.....and then a few minutes of retrospection and these people who didn't get broken down start to cry as they realize that they had, in fact, slid down this slippery slope mentioned by the OP. They often will admit that they were damaged by this but didn't realize it after thinking about post-program incidences where program thinking hobbled parts of their lives.
And when you get out, there are certain things that actually can be useful in recovering from the trauma of the program. Unfortunately, these tools that could be of aid to us were made into tools of torment and torure so we naturally have an aversion to them. Psychotherapy, self-analysis, the steps, serenity prayer, god, church, discipline, responsibility etc. are all things that are useful to people who need some psychological guidance when problems arise. But we associated these tools with evils of the program and avoided them like the plague. Because these tools (and songs) had been made into implements of torture, we wanted nothing to do with them and self betterment subsequently fell by the wayside. Just another reason we couldn't seem to right ourselves when down on our luck. Try to be a carpenter in a world of carpenters after you have been tortured with a hammer; try driving nails with your shoe and see how well you do in life. That is life, post-program.
I don't think anyone gets out unscathed, whether they think so or not.
The last sentence here says it all.
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Simply put,the good things(Serenity Prayer,Signs,even RBT)were not the cause of evil at Straight.One has to learn not to throw out the baby with the bathwater.RBT was a good idea.George Ross is an idiot.Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.I seriously doubt that the authors of RBT would have let George Ross through their doors if they knew how George was going to twist their teachings for his own personal gain.Once again,don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.
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I couldn't quite finish earlier. ( omg, Surv!vor and Gr3y's Anatomy were coming on...) Anyhow, it just amazes me how people (all people, at some point in their lives..) tend to go along with the crowd. In Psych and Soc class we had to research the Asch and Zimbardo experiments. And it amazed me and reminded me so much of the dynamic Straight used to convince people to just go along with the crowd.
If you are ever bored and don't know about these experiments.. go read about them. They are really interesting and prove how mind control was being tested just prior to and during the years of Straight. These experiments had already proved that the dynamic that Straight used would work as well as it did. It will make you wonder a lot about what is really going through the minds of the other humans around you.. We are all hiding behind our smiles and knowing that makes me feel so icky inside.
Sigh, and you guys wonder why I wanna go and live in the middle of nowhere, LOL... It's because I know too much ^.~ and humans scare me!
PS: Sam, there was never any Baby. Just bath water... to bathe your brain. The baby.. it WAS the lie.
edited for 2 spelling errors, not content.
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You know the funny part? I am living proof that those fkrs lied. They always said the sooner you conform, the sooner and easier it will be to get out. I cared "how" I got out, and I would never have hurt anyone to make it easier on myself. Don't misunderstand me, I don't judge anyone for it now.. But it is the part I can never understand, why? Why did so many people believe them? I mean, I didn't conform and I was outta there in 6.5 months. Yea, it was brutal.. but it worked faster than conforming.
Problem is with some programs that can get you sent to a "worse" facility (and progressively worse from there). The "way out" you describe, while ideal, is not always as easy.
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Once Again,Straight BAD.......Serenity Prayer GOOD
Hitler BAD...........Autobahn GOOD
Fidel Castro BAD...........100% Literate Cuba GOOD
Just because Straight Inc was full of crap does not mean going out behaving like a derelict is good.I tried it and trust me it does not work!Straight Inc. was 16 1/2 of the most screwed up months any one could pass but to say that every principle shown is full of crap is equally ludicrous.Maybe this backlash is the main cause of the program's toxicity and ridiculous mortality rate.As hard as this might sound,survival might dictate utilizing the positive while taking the lies and putting them in a mental Hefty bag along with Newton,Ross,Petermann and the rest of the Hee Haw Gang.Remember,they can't harm you any more unless you let them.
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Once Again,Straight BAD.......Serenity Prayer GOOD
Just because there might have been a baby in the bath-water does not mean that is it. Everything must be evaluated seperately and objectively. If you had said "Straight BAD.......Sobriety / moderation GOOD" I might agree with you. Whether the serenity prayer or AA is good is something that needs to be established by science.
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the problem with straight is that the stuff like "serenity prayer, honesty, etc", never really meant what it what it was intened to mean. For example, honesty was never really "honesty"; serenity prayer was used for me to "accept that I was in straight". . . shit like that. I tend to agree with old Sam.
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If you are ever bored and don't know about these experiments.. go read about them. They are really interesting and prove how mind control was being tested just prior to and during the years of Straight. These experiments had already proved that the dynamic that Straight used would work as well as it did. It will make you wonder a lot about what is really going through the minds of the other humans around you.. We are all hiding behind our smiles and knowing that makes me feel so icky inside.
Sigh, and you guys wonder why I wanna go and live in the middle of nowhere, LOL... It's because I know too much ^.~ and humans scare me!
Our society, what a drag...
Yes. MKULTRA, and other "interesting" experiments...
Those revoltingly creepy "behavioral studies" where people under duress start behaving in certain ways..
Operation Mind Control...gotta love it. ::puke:: :suicide:
Last night going up in a glass elevator in DC, I got the "plastic smile" from someone, and believe me all they got back was the blank stare. Sometimes common civility is a struggle, I hear you. I really fucking hate being around people sometimes, and i think that has everything to do with my particular experience (which bears a certain commonality in the context of people who were in programs, or the broken families of those people, or just kids who may have happened to experience other forms of abuse growing up, in school, or wherever) of what comprises society as I know it; basically a bunch of ignorant fuckheads... :rofl:
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I just had to respond to the comment made previously by the person who said they resisted for 6 months and then got out. The naivety of those remarks absolutely stunned me to read on a site like this. I don't know what program you were in but in Atlanta Straight during the early 80's we did not get out by not conforming, no matter how long you resisted. I sat in group by people that had been on 1st phase for 3 years. Imagine 3 years on 1st phase when you are a teenager and just a month or two feels like forever at that age. For someone to say that they would never hurt another person in order to make it easier on themselves sounds like self-righteous crap to someone like me. I watched "good" people turn into cruel heartless straight-robots, one after another. At that age and in that setting what else could we do? Maybe if my 18th birthday had been looming close or if I had any hope that a parent would withdraw me, then maybe I would have never caved in but those weren't options for me. They were not options for the vast majority of us. For most of us we began cooperating because we were hungry, exhausted, scared and utterly without hope for any better treatment. So we started "faking it", hoping at first to just lessen our suffering a little. From that it is not a big step to being completely brainwashed. I blame the adults who ran that place for everything that happened. We were just children!
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I just had to respond to the comment made previously by the person who said they resisted for 6 months and then got out. The naivety of those remarks absolutely stunned me to read on a site like this. I don't know what program you were in but in Atlanta Straight during the early 80's we did not get out by not conforming, no matter how long you resisted. I sat in group by people that had been on 1st phase for 3 years. Imagine 3 years on 1st phase when you are a teenager and just a month or two feels like forever at that age. For someone to say that they would never hurt another person in order to make it easier on themselves sounds like self-righteous crap to someone like me. I watched "good" people turn into cruel heartless straight-robots, one after another. At that age and in that setting what else could we do? Maybe if my 18th birthday had been looming close or if I had any hope that a parent would withdraw me, then maybe I would have never caved in but those weren't options for me. They were not options for the vast majority of us. For most of us we began cooperating because we were hungry, exhausted, scared and utterly without hope for any better treatment. So we started "faking it", hoping at first to just lessen our suffering a little. From that it is not a big step to being completely brainwashed. I blame the adults who ran that place for everything that happened. We were just children!
Yeah, I would have to agree, it wasn't always that easy...and I saw the same kind of things happen to people in there. I was in VA str8 from 11/82 - 1/85.
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Shaggys, you missed my point. My point is... how fucked up a place is to make teenagers turn into people like that just to get out...Yes, it is something I couldn't do and for me it made me feel like there was something wrong with me. I mean, 98% or more of the kids around me were doing it and it made me think I was crazy or broken...But then again.. I was the only kid in my class who refused to say the pledge and was kicked out of high school for it... None of those kids understood why I didn't just go along. The point is I couldn't! I told them I would say "Many nations under many Gods" But wtf, that wasn't good enough for those fkrs at school. But for me, I needed to acknowledge all people in that pledge, because my pledge was to HUMANITY as a whole.
I thought until just a few years ago, I was the one who was broken. But then I realized there wasn't anything wrong with any of us, it was only how each individual responded. I vowed to die in Straight Va. 86... before I would eat the children around me. I don't know why, that is just how I responded, no better or worse.. just differently. Do not shame me because I have no understanding as to why people around me conformed. I will never be able to understand, just as you will never be able to understand why I didn't just "fake it". I mean you all are saying "faking it" was what one HAD to do. Which is not true. I would have sat on my hands there in that blue chair for the rest of my life, because as far as I was concerned.. my life had already ended the day they left me in that place. I had come to terms with that and had completely given up on day 1. And I was ok with that. They stood me up everyday and many people spit in my face everyday. I was thrown to that floor everyday I was in there with some filthy hand over my mouth and 4 other girls sitting on my arms/legs... I just lost hope. I have no understanding of how any of you all had any hope of getting out at all. I had no understanding of what it was you all had to run to when you copped out.. I had nothing and I was empty, completely. I just sat there, on my hands staring at the floor.. and then Id be stood up and spat on or thrown to the floor. I had no hope inside me at all. No fight left. My only defense was to refuse to participate and hope to die.
My point is, like all those behavior experiments... People like power over others. And people with power will devour the souls of those under them. And then programs started using that fact to turn kids against other kids... "to save them from drugs". Meanwhile, it killed a part of each of us. Any small part you may think was good about straight, was a twisted version of reality and used against all of us. Each small part, was a part which made the whole machine run and work to break us all down. All of it was sick and psychotic. Disgusting. Maybe my hate for Straight and all places like it burns deeper than most peoples, but one thing is for sure.. that fire burns hot within me and I refuse, still to this day, to watch anyone be treated poorly. Even in my work, that is what will make me a great nurse. Because I will not stand by and let people abuse people (or animals) in the name of anything.
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Sorry Withdraw, you are obviously an extremely kind hearted person and I see your point. Maybe if we had all had that same moral certitude as you then Straight would not have been able to function. I realize that is wishful thinking though because although most of us like to think of ourselves as nice people, we don't really know until we are tested. Maybe Straight was a test of my moral compass and I failed. I guess I reacted to your post negatively because of all the shit that happened there I am most pissed about what i was forced to do to others in order to help myself. I am truly ashamed but also aware that I would never do those things under any normal circumstances. So much more could be said on this topic, however I have to sign off right now. Thanks to everyone here at Fornits for the chance to interact with people who understand what happened. Shaggy.
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Once Again,Straight BAD.......Serenity Prayer GOOD
Hitler BAD...........Autobahn GOOD
Fidel Castro BAD...........100% Literate Cuba GOOD
Just because Straight Inc was full of crap does not mean going out behaving like a derelict is good.
I don't think that anyone here is arguing that point, Sam. Seems like you are a lil bit caught up in "all or nothing" reasoning yourself.......of course behaving like a derelict isn't good (unless, of course, you are a derelict, in which case I encourage you to be the best damn derelict you can be....). I don't think there are too many survivors that ascribe to the "if you aren't addicted to oxycontin and crack you are still brainwashed by Straight" theory.
I tried it and trust me it does not work!
I got my fucking PhD in it, and 20 years field experience, Sam.....but if by "works" you mean "obscures any memory I have of Straight while possibly if not probably inhibiting any growth since getting out of Straight", then Sam, if it wasn't working for you, you weren't working it correctly. Being a derelict and fucked up 24/7 is pretty much a refuge from, well, anything, except sobriety, 'cause you are always gonna come down. Being a derelict is really a lot harder than it looks.
Straight Inc. was 16 1/2 of the most screwed up months any one could pass but to say that every principle shown is full of crap is equally ludicrous.
Well, you are right but you are also wrong here, Sam.....it was wrong because of the comtext in which it was presented.....there was absolutely no therapeutic component to Straight, Inc. whatsoever. Any SEMBLERance to therapy was merely a sales pittch, part of the ploy, just enough legitimacy to make it appear to be a therapeutic process to an outside lay observer.
Maybe this backlash is the main cause of the program's toxicity and ridiculous mortality rate.As hard as this might sound,survival might dictate utilizing the positive while taking the lies and putting them in a mental Hefty bag along with Newton,Ross,Petermann and the rest of the Hee Haw Gang.Remember,they can't harm you any more unless you let them.
Absolutely. Straight destroyed any trust whatsover in psycology, psychiatry, counseling, etc, for many of us. Quite understandable, with what we went through under the guise of "treatment" for non-existant conditions and fictitious diseases. Still, I think I get what you are saying, that we should utilize anything we can from the experience, and integrate it into ourselves. I agree, except I don't think that Straight in and of itself gave us anyting worth using......as survivors, we obviously had some element of ourselves that has kept us alive, and at least functional enough to write to each other about it on a message board. The real "treasure" we got out of our experience at Straight was not the Serenity prayer, not the 5 criteria, not the lifelong interaction with people we other wise would never have met, not the introductions to sobriety and/or addiction, but the fact that we did endure, we did survive the ordeal. That is what I am interested in, "What are the qualities we have in common that enabled us to survive where so many others did not, often by their own hand?"......I think that is the point where it is possible to begin healing. The positives, if that word can be used, of our experiences were not anything they gave us, it was the fact that it revealed in ourselves some quality that allowed us to survive the experience, albeit scathed to some degree or other. That is what interests me, at this poinht---what did we do that allowed us to survive where so many others died.....and by survive I don't mean, "oh I conformed with the program to move along", that's not the point I am trying to make....I meean survival after Straight, once the damage had been done, once the woundas had been inflicted and we were out in the real world, scarred but surviving. I wanna explore the facetsd of our collective psyche that gave us the ability, if not always the willingness, to endure, to carry on where others have, through no fault of their own, faltered. God knows the suicides among us have my sympathy, and maybe, in the end, they chose the most efficient route to deaden the pain, which can at times seem unbearable.
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I remember resisiting/misbehaving off and on for a month or so after being put in the program. Then one friday night in an open meeting review rap I got stood up and blasted for my lack of cooperation. I blurted out that i thought my father would come get me out of the program eventually. I was told in no uncertain terms that no one was coming for me and that I would never leave the program. I was blasted with that statement over and over and over until 30 minutes of yelling cursing and threatening had reduced my 15 year old mind to mush. I sat down and immediately knew that I had to cooperate to ever have a chance of leaving hell. I began to motivate that evening and thus began a year and a half descent into full scale brainwashing. I thought at first that it would just last until I got a good chance to run but gradually I began to believe it all. Finally, towards the end I would have done virtually anything the staff told me to do. All the terrible things that were done and said to me I then turned around and did to others. After all, you had to hurt people in order to help them, right? Yes, it was a descent into hell that started for real when I thought I could just make it easier on myself and "fake it" until I could run.
Thanks for your post shaggys, I have a similar story myself. I ran from my host home on my first morning in the program. I didn't quite get away, but managed to get about 1/4 mile into the woods before they caught up to me and dragged me back, after we got to the building I was put into an intake room, sat in a chair and blasted by every staff member who was on duty that day for hours, then I was re-introduced to group and, you know, blasted again. They sat me back on front row and I sat with my hand down for the next 3 days, but on the 3rd day I was stood up, and like you, I was also told in no uncertain terms that my withdraw conference request had been denied. My parents weren't even interested in what I had to say. No one was coming to get me out. I had tried escaping by way of physical power but it didn't work and I wasn't gonna sit there for 14 months til I was 18, cause that seemed like an awful long time and I was sure that by then it would be too late for me anyway, so I felt I had no choice but to pretend to embrace the program until I could gain enough trust to run when no one was watching me. And in fact I did escape from my host home on day 64 but was re-captured only 2 days later and returned to front row.
Over the 23 months I spent on my phases I watched this happen to people over and over and over again. The misbehaving and the non-compliance followed by the beat down in group, followed by the authoritative pronouncement from staff that your parents don't want you back, no one is coming to get you. You're here to stay, etc.
Withdraw obviously played her cards well.
I like the way Psy put it. It was the compromise of values via actions that opened the way for the brainwash. That's pretty much my point. The wisdom distilled from this experience is in understanding the way ones own deeply held core values can be manipulated and completely switched out by foreign forces through the controlled introduction of, exposure to and submersion in carefully controlled social environments, where certain behaviors are required before one can be accepted by the group. Even the slightest compromise in behavior can lead to a compromise in values and personal constitution.
Watch your top-knot.
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It was the compromise of values via actions that opened the way for the brainwash. That's pretty much my point. The wisdom distilled from this experience is in understanding the way ones own deeply held core values can be manipulated and completely switched out by foreign forces through the controlled introduction of, exposure to and submersion in carefully controlled social environments, where certain behaviors are required before one can be accepted by the group. Even the slightest compromise in behavior can lead to a compromise in values and personal constitution.
Watch your top-knot.
Indeed...like how when a kid stood up in "group" it wasn't enough that the kid merely say that they felt 'guilt' or 'shame' about an "incident from their past," the kid was expected to "be in touch with their feelings" about it..... :cry: :rofl: :bs: :roflmao:
Like a behind-the-scenes exposé on the set of some twisted, psycho-dramatically-charged, and severely demented b-movie, the kid's individual reactions and mannerisms were scrutinized, ridiculed and hyper-criticized when the kid didn't conform to the expectations of what was presented as a "Group" of their peers... :-X
"How did you feel about that? I know damn well when that happened to me blah blah blah blah"... ::)
One more time, with "feeling."
We were used and treated like lab-rats. :deal: ::puke:: :poison:
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Withdraw, your experience reminded me of mine in a similar program. In a way. I was quieter. At first, my quietude was confused with conforming. I was an expert at blending in. But what I would not do was bully or traumatize others. That was the sole reason I split. I could endure, but I could not abuse. After one of our secret 24 hour mind fuck experientials, it became abundantly clear that I could not "level up", leave, or exist anymore without turning into an emotional sadist. Now, my quietude was considered rebellious. So I escaped - and I am not a runner by nature - which meant hiking through forests and derelict camps and hiding out for a week until I could get down the mountain to civilization. I am very happy I was successful.
I was still brainwashed though. At first, it was Twilight Zone... surreal and shocking... but, I had to believe that there was a baby in the bathwater... there wasn't. Because I split, I was excommunicated, I had no one to process the experience with and never discussed it for 17 years. But it haunted me. Fornits was tremendously validating. The strange thing was my program was hidden away where no one knew about it... Parents could simply say they sent their children to a boarding school. (The school part was fraud.) Straight existed in the open. I'm not sure how that worked. Strange that the fear of even nascent or recreational drug use terrified people more than the thought of that Stepford clusterfuck of Hell.
Now, there is distrust of therapy, people, and religion. Religion, to me, is nothing more than group think, and hypocritical social control. The worst part is I almost have contempt for people who are religious. (OK, being honest - scratch almost.) I sometimes wonder if I'd be more open minded if I hadn't experienced the Program.
I don't trust any "experts." And I don't trust the "spiritual" because my program always tried to elevate their teaching to some kind of transcendent plane. So, to me, even New Agey stuff is all crap to make money or satisfy your ego as some kind of "guru". Hell, I would kill if I could just believe in Wayne Dyer.
It is an odd life. On one level,I exist in mainstream - I look mainstream (for fuck's sake, I drive a minivan!), pay my damn taxes, take care of my children and make sure they are in the "best" school district even though I myself make sacrifices to do so; on the other, I feel disconnected, because I look around me, and see the Kool Aid flowing and drowning... I function, but I'm disconnected. I think even from my feelings. Feelings are tough shit.
Wow. That was random. Sorry.
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It didn't seem random to me. I appreciated your perspective. I'm not Withdrawn or ever in Straight, but I've really found a lot of thought provoking and validating (not program version, read: reflective of my own experiences) contributions in this thread. Thank you.
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Indeed...like how when a kid stood up in "group" it wasn't enough that the kid merely say that they felt 'guilt' or 'shame' about an "incident from their past," the kid was expected to "be in touch with their feelings" about it..... :cry: :rofl: :bs: :roflmao:
Like a behind-the-scenes exposé on the set of some twisted, psycho-dramatically-charged, and severely demented b-movie, the kid's individual reactions and mannerisms were scrutinized, ridiculed and hyper-criticized when the kid didn't conform to the expectations of what was presented as a "Group" of their peers... :-X
"How did you feel about that? I know damn well when that happened to me blah blah blah blah"... ::)
One more time, with "feeling."
... :eek: ...O! I get it now! :rofl: ... ::) ... :roflmao: You're funny man.
O yeah though. Sounds like you were there.
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And when you get out, there are certain things that actually can be useful in recovering from the trauma of the program. Unfortunately, these tools that could be of aid to us were made into tools of torment and torure so we naturally have an aversion to them. Psychotherapy, self-analysis, the steps, serenity prayer, god, church, discipline, responsibility etc. are all things that are useful to people who need some psychological guidance when problems arise. But we associated these tools with evils of the program and avoided them like the plague. Because these tools (and songs) had been made into implements of torture, we wanted nothing to do with them and self betterment subsequently fell by the wayside. Just another reason we couldn't seem to right ourselves when down on our luck. Try to be a carpenter in a world of carpenters after you have been tortured with a hammer; try driving nails with your shoe and see how well you do in life. That is life, post-program.
This struck me as generally true, though I would still pass on some of the things listed as useful tools.
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...The second you pretended to go along with the program; the minute you decided to "fake it" until you could run, you made yourself open and vulnerable to brainwash. As soon as you began to just pretend you took the fatal sip.
The reason this worked is bc the minute you went along, or lied about who you were, you were brainwashing each other. These programs are designed to prevent you from showing each other that you don't believe in what you are doing, therefore it makes it impossible to feel sure about your perceptions of the other person (people) in regards to their actions. Essentially they create a social situation in which the most crucial component is that those involved "act as if" (this phrase can be referenced to synanon and Daytop NY and co founder Dan Casriel), meaning just go with the program and trust the process. The thing is once you behave in a certain way people will respond to what you are communicating to them as being yourself.
Validation.
... When each of us is introduced as a single addition to a social environment that has acheived a stable homeostasis (i.e. each has adopted habitual interractive behavior patterns under certain social rules and environmental restrictions) it is very hard to resist or disarm the overall "game" the group has adopted. You realize quickly that your normal behaviors will not be tolerated, so you repress them, you are expected to abide by rules and you decide the best way to play along is to model the behavior of your peers to best hide amongst them, but this is the failing defense because first impressions are everything.
Old school. and a very fine set of observations.
Once you act like someone else, especially when you're new, no one can communicate with you the way they do when they know you. Then you have to respond to them when they behave with you as though you are this person you are not. Add to that the strange bonding effect of being together in a survival situation where you need each other (or feel like it) to get through it and your faith in your relationships then becomes a validation of the other persons "fake" presentation of themselves, and since the relationship is self reflexive, you are validating your own fake self as real.
This is where the ambiguity you feel about the social context actually becomes ambiguity about yourself and what was an act can become real.
Thats exactly it.
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...The second you pretended to go along with the program; the minute you decided to "fake it" until you could run, you made yourself open and vulnerable to brainwash. As soon as you began to just pretend you took the fatal sip.
A very astute observation Pirate. And a fascinating thread that follows, its one of those threads with substance, something we can sink our teeth into. This helps evaluate, look deeper within. Sure the eyes were designed to look outward, but they can be directed to look within as well and yet so many of us, not just Survivors but the population in general seem prone to limiting thier own knowledge of themselves. And the many contributors to this thread have made some awesome observations of thier own.
I first read your original post when it was posted, and I thought to myself, "Pirate has done good!" and since then I have seem the other contributors and thought, "Well hell, they have done good as well!" and I asked myself. "What could I contribute? Why should I contribute to an already facinating read?" Then this morning I re-read the thread (slow sunday morning and all). Again, I was captivated by your opening remarks. I wondered if I was struck due to the fact I know you, I have met you, you welcomed me into your home, we broke bread together. I thought of your vast collection of books, which struck me the moment I saw them and subsequenetly never forget the well rounded library.
Per usual, my mind continued to think. Half ass reading the thread (waiting for coffee to brew), I read the post (Forgive me, I forgot who wrote it) that made reference to the distrust of anything "New Agey". This stopped my train of thought, infact I jumped tracks and began another thought stream, which seemed to have two lanes heading in the same direction.
The first lane of the thought stream was of my own experiance. I too was a staunch anti-religious, card carrying Athiest and it used to bring great joy to bring religious folks to tears while arguing, knowing I was weaking thier resolve. I was dating a Wiccian at the time and I recall a conversation inwhich I was gloating over a recent arguement with a christian. She was very kind, but firm. She looked me in the eyes, without berating me, she simply asked, "What right do you have to take someones hope, thier faith from them when obviously it helps hold them together?" I was stunned into silence, I could find no counter argument.
The 2nd lane in the thought stream was the song by The Who; The Seeker
I've looked under chairs
I've looked under tables
I've tried to find the key
To fifty million fables
chorus:
They call me The Seeker
I've been searching low and high
I won't get to get what I'm after
Till the day I die
I asked Bobby Dylan
I asked The Beatles
I asked Timothy Leary
But he couldn't help me either
chorus
People tend to hate me
'Cause I never smile
As I ransack their homes
They want to shake my hand
Focusing on nowhere
Investigating miles
I'm a seeker
I'm a really desperate man
I won't get to get what I'm after
Till the day I die
I learned how to raise my voice in anger
Yeah, but look at my face, ain't this a smile?
I'm happy when life's good
And when it's bad I cry
I've got values but I don't know how or why
I'm looking for me
You're looking for you
We're looking in at each other
And we don't know what to do
chorus
This was my song. In that, it said everything I thought, have done and my core being was articulated in the lyrics of the song.
And then a fork developed in my thought stream, which brought me back to your original post and I instantly recalled what a Monk told me a while back and it made soo much sense and I saw why I was so attracted to your original post. The Monk and I were discussing my rage and he made the statement, "The moment you comprimize your values, anger and rage most follow." I rembered it, because I thought it a witty, but very true statement. However The importance/relevance (if only to myself) of this statement has grown and grown.
Then I realized I was reading your opening statement thru the filter of the statement the Monk had said. And it was one of those Ahhhh-Haaaa moments. Something clicked tween my ears...However, I am not quite sure what that "click" was, nor do I have a firm grip on what it is I realized, it is certainly beyond my ability to articulate it as of yet, which as you know troubles me. Yet perhaps it is just as well, I neednt have all the answers...I think it far more important to have questions, probing questions, disturbing questions, questions that bring my mind to that silence I spoke of. The silence for me has two meanings, A) A profound sense of I DONT KNOW... B) A profound sense I have heard a TRUTH
Also, I find it fascinating that you compose 42 words which has effected so many thought streams. Well done my friend!
Om Shanti
Continued Healing
Woof
PS: You did get my phone message?
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O yeah though. Sounds like you were there.
"I" was brought in there at first, and then there was that "other me" who decided to "do what he had to do" or who decided to do the least that he could get away with doing in order to get the hell off of first phase... I was another kid from out of town, and didn't see splitting as a viable option until much later on... I just didn't want to continue to have to stay in my host home anymore. I wasn't exceptionally loud or dickish to the kids I'd get called on to confront, I just didn't have it in me, and neither was I capable of pouring tears like a faucet when I stood up to "share" in group (I sometimes became inwardly irritated with the occasional kid that could spout tears like that and move ahead so quickly, the 'golden-boys' who came in after me and earned T&R within their first two fucking weeks...yeah that make me sick a little.) I was there, but had trouble getting by, even when I wanted to give them what they wanted. God, I still hate some of the ASSHOLES, staff and phasers alike, who I had to listen to MOUTH OFF and cry pussy tears, day-in, day out....and I hate going to northern VA to this day.
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Woof - Interesting what the lady said about having no right to remove hope. I can have hope without ideology. I guess I resent that their mechanism for hope is based on false ideology and extinguishing the rights of others. I resent they use Jesus as a "get out of jail for free card" and a measurement of their own superiority over "lost flock". I guess I feel superior with my comfort with uncertainty.
I work with a lot of fundies and they almost act like program zombies. Some of them send their kids to programs like Love in Action, which is "good" because Jesus in their mission statement. yeah, right.
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I resent they use Jesus as a "get out of jail for free card" and a measurement of their own superiority over "lost flock". I guess I feel superior with my comfort with uncertainty.
I work with a lot of fundies and they almost act like program zombies. Some of them send their kids to programs like Love in Action, which is "good" because Jesus in their mission statement. yeah, right.
Christianity is stupid.
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Typically, I find religion as distasteful as I do people who go around announcing things like a person’s deeply help beliefs are “stupid”.
Everything else in this thread is nourishing.
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I remember resisiting/misbehaving off and on for a month or so after being put in the program. Then one friday night in an open meeting review rap I got stood up and blasted for my lack of cooperation. I blurted out that i thought my father would come get me out of the program eventually. I was told in no uncertain terms that no one was coming for me and that I would never leave the program. I was blasted with that statement over and over and over until 30 minutes of yelling cursing and threatening had reduced my 15 year old mind to mush. I sat down and immediately knew that I had to cooperate to ever have a chance of leaving hell. I began to motivate that evening and thus began a year and a half descent into full scale brainwashing. I thought at first that it would just last until I got a good chance to run but gradually I began to believe it all. Finally, towards the end I would have done virtually anything the staff told me to do. All the terrible things that were done and said to me I then turned around and did to others. After all, you had to hurt people in order to help them, right? Yes, it was a descent into hell that started for real when I thought I could just make it easier on myself and "fake it" until I could run.
wow. you just made a lot of misery in my life make sense to me! i was never in straight but i was married to someone who spent over a year there before finally escaping in florida and making his way back to texas where he was emancipated and not sent back. i have heard so many horror stories and knew that he he was terribly effected by the experience (for instance freaking out at the sound of crying etc..) but he always spoke of it with complete hatred and disgust. he was a "misbehavor" who ran 12 times before finally "faking it" to phase three in order to get out once and for all. the thing that ive often found confusing was how he had a tendency to turn all of the brainwashing and abuse on me even though he was so against it. in the earlier days of our relationship (beginning when i was 16) i under went my own mini straight experience via him! as a troubled teen with no where else to go, i ended up staying in a sadistic straight poisoned codependent relationship for 11 years. i never really understood why we were so insane. its taken me years to recover from the watered down indirect effects that were turned around on me.
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Straight was a loving place of hope and healing where people could work on their drug and alcohol problems with some dignity and pride. Your supportive family network is willing to work on themselves to help reconnect with you in spite of the relationships that you once ruined with them. A team of professional staff members to help and assist you and your loved ones through the long and painful recovery process. Are you diseased individuals? Yes. Are you the lowest form of life on Earth? I`m afraid so. Do you need a time out from society because of all the bridges you have burned because of your addictions? Without a druggie doubt. Upon graduation you may even wish to serve on the honorable staff and help other addicts with their problems. If you prove you are a worthy example to others you might be accepted to join this ring of Honor called "Staff." Is Straight confrontational? Yes but only in a tough love way and if you complete the program you will come to understand that the sweet is never as sweet without the sour. I wish you well as you take this brave and unpredictable journey of recovery and discovery.
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To smvmg:
I am sorry you had that experience. I know of many spouses and significant others of "programees" who share it... I did not go to Straight, but to a similar program where you are warehoused from any outside influence and emotionally and psychologically abused for the duration. The problem was they called it love and "just being honest." But it wasn't.... You tried not to fall into it, but it is difficult to level up and get out unless you become what you hate, to varying degrees. Of course, there were always a few sociopaths who seemed to acclimate with ease.
The program is 24/7 communication. Bad communication. If you didn't follow suit, you became more abused... Since everyone around you seemingly condoned it, it became the model paradigm. You actually grow to believe you are helping people when you abuse, manipulate,and exploit their feelings. You begin to equate "depth" with over emotionalism. It takes a LONG time for some people to realize what they are doing post-program. Usually at the expense of many relationships.
Another common thing is being too direct - this is a problem I have. I don't nag, hound, yell, or get into drama, but I will make very abrupt observations without much sensitivity. People need a little clothing in the cold light of reality. I still struggle with this.
Fornits is here because the pain far outlasted the program. Our program experiences occurred at a pivotal point in our social/personal development and had a stunting effect. The damage is not just to ourselves, but to the people we love afterward.
I certainly would hesitate to date anyone recently out of the program. Maybe in 20 years' time.
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Woof -
This, "The moment you compromise your values, anger and rage most follow." is a completely correct statement. In Psychological analysis - when someone experiences this.. it can be called or cause - called Cognitive Dissonance. This occurs when a person has to do things they do not believe are right, but they must do them anyhow for one reason or another. I just researched (this week) a scholarly journal article about ICU nurses who experience high levels of MORAL DISTRESS, caused by cognitive dissonance. This study shows potential reasons why there is a nursing shortage. Cognitive dissonance causes plenty of emotional anguish, but it also causes noticeable physical distress (Like sleeplessness, or lowed immune responses) and of course issues with self image and depression etc.
Once someone experiences cognitive dissonance, they began to evaluate their motives and question their own character. This leads to low self worth and poor self appraisal. Which obviously leads to many, many more negative manifestations within the persons life.
I can see how most of us experienced this, during and after Straight, Inc. I wonder if this is the prime cause for the PTSD, that the VAST majority of us still endure. Interesting, I hadn't connected the dots from my research paper to this, until tonight. Thanks =)
If you g00gle Cognitive dissonance, there is a bunch on-line to read and videos showing how this theory is applied.
PS- Yay! My 3rd math exam and.. the cat muscle exam is over! (Today). I mean, wth kind of morbid college exam begins with .. you walk in and there are 30 dead (dissected) cats laying on trays around the room with their muscles marked with numbered pins.. UGH.. but yay, It's over and I am pretty sure I passed it w/ an A =)
Good discussion, Pirate!
Oh and I still say Cop-outs are MeOw ^.~
Peace2uall!
<3
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The effect that I still fucking suffer from the ol monkeyfarm goes like this:
We got told your feelings this your feelings that ,share your feelings,how do you feel about that,dont you have any feelings,I bet you have a lot of feelings,feelings,feelings feel, felt,feelings fucking feelings...........and so it became that I was too(god I hate to use this word) aware,of my own emotional bullshit to the point of It running my fucking life,clouding every tiny decision,complicating every aspect.This is str8s most profound and troubling effect on me.I spent the better part of a decade,shooting a lot of dope,and trying like hell to be well...LESS in touch with all that touchy feely bullshit.
As for faking it,yeah I did a shit-load of that,I mean I never got high on my phases,but when I started school again I was fucking girls there,and strangly not feeling guilty for it.I was concerned that Id get busted for it and started over,but MY thinking went something like If I dont go into group looking all panic filled,these fucks aint gonna know.I just went into group like everything was groovy,and for me it was.I mean I was like the cat that swallowed the canary. I always knew my whole program I would get high again,but I sure as fuck wasnt gonna spout that truth off in some horseshit therapy. Now the wheels of life Do turn,and I do drink,(some would say too much) dont get high,but thats my idea,my choice.I would say I didnt get much good from str8,but I do see the point of not throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
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I remember in KHK they always would tell us to "Fake it 'til you make it". I guess this was their way of saying it's ok to lie as long as you are working your way towards becoming brainwashed.
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You all had me convinced! I was always like, how can they just go along?!
I wouldn't get too righteous, as to answer your qhuestion, it was you they used to convince us. Does that help ?
I never got it. Then staff would say to me... If you really were normal w/o a drug problem, you would just go through the program easily and accept it as a great learning experience... And since you can't conform, you must really need to be here...
yeah, that was a common line from staff.
LOL, You all fooled me
My compliments, but I don't care for your condescension.
ps: I admit though, I was secretly glad to see the people who did run get put back into group.. Because... I knew there were people out there in those blue chairs who knew what I knew. It was like finally a validation.. and there were people "on my side" who were in there with me.
...o.k., hm. sounds fucked up to me. seems like the validation would've come from knowing that people were attempting to escape.
I don't know how to explain that easily, but it made me feel safer knowing people who ran were back in there with me. It made me feel protected somehow, it let me hold on to some of my sanity.
I don't intend to be too harhs, nor do I intend to take the blame for the abuse you took, Withdraw. Don't lay it on me.
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Sorry, Withdraw, you didn't dserve all that, but my point is not unfounded.
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I agree, your point is not unfounded. Withdraw is obviously a very nice person but the tone of her posts are frequently condescending. Its like there is some special moral high ground occupied by those who went through Straight but never complied in any way. Somehow they passed the great moral test that the other 99 percent of us failed. I saw permanent "misbehavor" types who had been locked up on 1st phase for years. Some of these folks were very violent, I am sure driven mad by their imprisonment. However, many times I saw these complete non-conformist types lash out blindly at those around them. Smashing faces, sucker punches from hell etc. Was that somehow justified cause they were just lashing out at their tormentors? What about when a misbehavor hit someone at random, another 1st phaser who had never done anything to deserve that? Somehow that behavior occupies a moral plateau above the abuse dished out by an oldcomer? In my opinion it doesn't. I will go a step further. For those of you who never conformed or "drank the kool-aid" in any way, consider yourself lucky. Yes, I said it : lucky. At least you don't have the guilt on your back the other 98-99 percent of us do.
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Brainwashed - Maybe what you don't understand about me is, I thought I was more fucked up than the rest of you because I couldn't conform. Everyone around me tried to convince me on a daily basis that I was the one who was broken. It took me years and reading posts here to realize that most of you even experienced guilt at all. That is what validates me so clearly. I don't experience that same guilt...because all I did was stare at the floor sitting on my hands and the only time I "lashed" out at anyone or anything around me was in an attempt to protect my physical body. You know, like when the people around me would try to force my head forward or try to pry my hands from under my legs... When people (who were doing what they HAD to..) would stand me up and scream and spit in my face while 2-3 other people held me against the wall... I just stood there.. DAY AFTER DAY. I don't know why, but I just gave up.. entirely. I was trying to express to you that I envyed the "fight" you guys write about. I didn't have it. It was a very lonely, traumatic existence. So, you can post all about how you have justified your actions all you want.. I could care less. I post about my experience and you post about yours.. so what, we were different. It is a shame that my posts make people question their own self approval morality, that is not my intention at all.
Your experience of guilt says a lot about how you feel about what you did in there. You can try to make me out to be someone who thinks of themselves as morally above you, but I do not feel this way at all. What is clear is that you have taken on the characteristic of feeling morally below me. That is all on you.
Shaggys - No, I never said that misbehaviors who randomly lashed out violently at innocent newcomers.. blah blah.. were more justified in their abuse of others as oldcommers working the program. Of course, I would think that anyone who abused anyone else in Straight was under the distress of the brainwashing...and it was what you HAD to do in order to get out. What you don't get is that, I never put that together..That reward system they had in place. I refused to accept their reward. Do not blame me that most people did. Their idea of reward was twisted and profane. I didn't want anything to do with. Get over it.
When I say Peace2u, i mean that. get over the drama and let everyone express their own experiences. I have no desire to conform to some idealized model some of you all have, so dont bother.
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You all had me convinced! ... LOL, You all fooled me
Sorry if you weren't very perceptive, but that is not on me.
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You all had me convinced! ... LOL, You all fooled me
Sorry if you weren't very perceptive, but that is not on me.
u dont really believe that
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A quick war story to illustrate a point. Anybody who was locked up in Atlanta during this time frame will remember this incident. A kid I will call D was set back to 1st phase from 3rd or 4th due to smoking at school. D had already been in Straight a long time. The startover seemed to just completely crush him. He immediately became a "misbehavor" and a pretty violent one at that. I was working on my 5th or 6th month of 1st phase about this time. I was sitting behind D in group when he suddenly produced a steak knife ( obviously stolen from the host-home ) from his sock. He plunged it all the way into a guys back seated directly in front of him. D then threw the knife over his shoulder. It landed behind the group making a metallic sound as it skipped across that hard tiled floor. D did not know the guy he stabbed. Did not know him at all. He was another 1st phaser fairly new to the group. He spent over a month in the hospital. The knife had punctured a lung and barely missed his heart. D was brought to the front of the group where an intense confrontation began that culminated an hour or two later with the police removing D. We never saw him again. The group was told weeks later that D had been given 5 years in Milledgville Prison for the attempted murder. My guess is that D would have never ended up like that without the mind-fucking that Straight put on him. He was probably not a violent person at all before being put in straight. He had reached a point where he would obviously rather be in jail than in Straight. That place brought out the absolute worst in all of us. My hate is reserved pretty much excusively for those adults who created and perpetuated that system. Ultimately even D is not to blame for what he did ( even though it was particularly vicious and hard to forgive ) because he was a victim of an extremely abusive situation. He was driven mad by the adults who should have known better. My God, how I still loathe them.
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So, you can post all about how you have justified your actions all you want.. I could care less.
Your experience of guilt says a lot about how you feel about what you did in there.
I refused to accept their reward. Do not blame me that most people did. Their idea of reward was twisted and profane. I didn't want anything to do with. Get over it.
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Arrogant beyond belief!! Freaking Mother Theresa over here. I never heard of anyone being voluntarily let go after just 6 months. The best that a permanent misbehavor could hope for was a transfer to another Straight facility. I saw people who had not spoken to their parents in years. Straight didn't just let them go. But then again, Mother Theresa is the exception to every rule. At 6 months in I was still alternating between misbehaving and cooperating. I still had another year to go before figuring out how to leave permanently. I think my experience reflects a pretty typical Straight stay. That is why I started posting on this site. I wanted to hear from those 99 percent who at least to some degree, shared my same experience. I am looking to understand what happened in there but that is difficult when these kind of postings come from those who didn't share that same experience at all. Anyone who was let go or encouraged to leave after 6 months falls into a category of less than even 1 percent. In fact that experience was completely unheard of while I was there.
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I think my experience reflects a pretty typical Straight stay. That is why I started posting on this site. I wanted to hear from those 99 percent who at least to some degree, shared my same experience. I am looking to understand what happened in there but that is difficult when these kind of postings come from those who didn't share that same experience at all. Anyone who was let go or encouraged to leave after 6 months falls into a category of less than even 1 percent. In fact that experience was completely unheard of while I was there.
That's a fair enough assessment over all, I think. Me? I was there two years, went in when I was 16 finally done with the place for good when I was past 18. I got taken in late 1982 when the VA branch had just started up after splitting off from St. Pete. I learned early on that misbehaving was not how I intended to deal with the situation I found myself in; during the first "open meeting" I tried to run across the room to my parents, and it didn't pan out. I saw kids getting fucked with all the time, and I got my share of abuse in there early on. Stick around, there are plenty of people who were in longer than six months (not that there's anything wrong with that....I wish I could say that was my experience.)
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This post was just to clarify. I do not think that 6 months in Straight was a joke or anything. I know of people who were in there for less time than that and are deeply traumatized by what happened to them. I was just responding to a particular person who keeps insisting that somehow we could have gotten through Straight by kind of passively resisting until they just let us go. My point was that they didn't just let you go.
I can't believe I am forced to debate something that virtually anyone who was there already knows to be fact. Straight Inc 101: This is how it worked. All newcomers were screwed over. All newcomers were abused. Eventually the newcomer would seek to lessen their abuse by conforming with the cult. Usually this started out as faking. After beginning to conform, the newcomer is abused less(relative) and at some point will begin to identify with the message of the cult. Since the entire program at Straight was built on having the inmates abuse each other, this was the message that was absorbed and acted upon.
Look, there are many people out there who went through Straight, who are just now realizing what happened to them. Wouldn't you like to have a place here for those folks who are looking for answers about that terrible time in our lives. When these people seek a place to discuss their experiences they should not be met with any self-righteous indignation from a small handful of those 1 percent who never "drank any of the kool-aid". The vast majority of us that had a similar experince should try to make sure Fornits stays a receptive place for those needing answers.
Thanks for your post Froderik.
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Look, there are many people out there who went through Straight, who are just now realizing what happened to them. Wouldn't you like to have a place here for those folks who are looking for answers about that terrible time in our lives. When these people seek a place to discuss their experiences they should not be met with any self-righteous indignation from a small handful of those 1 percent who never "drank any of the kool-aid". The vast majority of us that had a similar experince should try to make sure Fornits stays a receptive place for those needing answers.
Well, what about Withdraw then ?? Wasn't her experience valid ?? She's a $tr8 survivor in search of answers too, and just because her experience was different than the majority, that doesn't disqualify her from describing her experience on this forum, on the other hand comments like "you all fooled me" and the like, place the responsibility for what happened to her on the rest of us, who were either conforming outright or giving the appearance of conforming, while waiting for our chance to run.
So, while I'll defend her right to post about her experience and seek understanding, I also think her judgment, fair or unfair is harsh, and not altogether endearing. We were all being manipulated by the same force.
Peace.
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I can not believe I am even explaining this....
The statement "You all fooled me" has been misunderstood and taken out of context! You all did fool me! And that means, all that time I spent sitting there.. I thought you all were working the program and believed in it... I thought I was the one who was the "most" fucked up because I couldn't work it. I couldn't conform and I didn't know exactly why then. You all fooled me because I thought you guys believed in what you were doing! I was fooled, because now you all come here and say how you were just faking it... or working the program because that is how you knew to get out. WTF guys?? I was fooled, so dam what.
And yes, it was the people who got brought back to group who validated my thoughts, even if it was just a little. It was them who kept me believing that there were other people in that building who didn't believe in Straight. I envied them so much. They still had enough belief in themselves to bother fighting... Something I had lost and didn't know why.
And for the people who think that I think I am self righteous...I don't. I think I was dam lucky to have gotten out the way I did. And 6 months as a misbehavior was no fucking picnic! I didn't even know any fucking rock songs to scream out while being restrained... I was so weird in there.. I didn't even "fit" in with the majority of the gawd dam misbehaviors. I was the uncoolest person in that whole fucking place. I had given completely up. I sat there in my marshmallow sweater day in and day out, getting stood up several times a day and spat on by the kids around me. What a great 6 months that was! I couldn't fake it and I didn't know why. I was fucking broken!I was almost catatonic. WTF do I have to come here and defend myself to you all for? I was there, I was abused and gawd dam it.. let me have my own reality too. I let you have yours and empathize when I can and ask questions when I need to. Yep, my torture was different that many of yours... but it was just as fucking real. And it was just as traumatic. While many of you all got to go to school... or use the phone.. I got to lay on that fucking floor everyday with some 5 girls sitting on me and their nasty filthy hands in my mouth.. Oh yea! it was a fucking holiday!... Gimme a break.
Do you have any idea what it was like to come home and my parents hated me ( and do to this day!) because they didn't get to be an oldcommer home? They had the fucked up kid who couldn't even work the program and graduate... They wanted to fit in with the rest of the parents and still do! They still talk to those straight parents and still feel like I let them down... Do you really even have any idea what that was like? Wow. You know my non conforming had it's own special set of repercussions.. things not many of you could even understand. Do I hate you because you got the parental approval that I missed out on? No, I care for you all because I know we are individuals with individual experiences. I care for you who I never knew, because we share a common tragedy.. I fucking care for your experience even if it was different than my own. I ask questions because I do not understand the dynamic of your program and conformity.. a dynamic I wished for so long I could master.. but I couldn't because I was more broken than any of you. I was more worthless and more fucked up mentally then the rest of you. That is what I think.. And if you think that is mother Theresa .. you are sadly mistaken. It has been fucking miserable. It is only recently that I can even move forward, just a little. And it is a gawd dam struggle each and every day. So, think what you want.. but at least get the facts before you go on about what kind of person I must be.. You, have no idea.
So, how and why did you fake it? Because I couldn't and never understood the how or why of it.... Tell me the great secret? Because I failed at it miserably. And my parents still think I am a failure because I couldn't even make it through Straight. Heh, while you think that I think of myself as better than you.. I actually think that I was more of a failure than you. You just have no idea what I went through and still go through today because of that hell hole.
And yep, it is your insistence that makes me wonder what you actually feel about what you did while you were in there... because you wouldn't go on and on if you felt so great about it. And YES, that is a feeling that I never have to feel. And YEP, I sure am glad about that now. Does that make me bad? I don't think it does, it makes me grateful, because today.. I know I did the right thing for my personal self. I have very few apologies to make to anyone in that place, and for that YEP.. I am thankful for. So what!
And by the way, Pirate takes up for me a little because he watched me sit in that blue chair in my marshmallow sweater and get screamed at and spit on daily.. He remembers a little of what I endured.. and it was no fucking fun time for me. I was broken, completely. They beat down me everyday. It was a consistent event to stand me up in almost every rap... just to spit on me.. What a grand thing it is to remember that about my little girl self.. What a fine time I had in there... My six months was sure a long fucking time. I lived everyone of those days on suicide watch and consequences...So my nights were barely better than my days in the building.
We don't all have to agree, and I am glad we all have a different story to tell. That is what makes this a worthwhile site to even visit on occasion. Do you really want a bunch of people posting here, all telling the same story over and over? Let's hope not.
ps, Yep I am a little irritated.. that I even felt compelled to come and type this all out.. and if it makes people mad.. GREAT! Oh and so what...
Grow up and realize that not everyone is the same. I do, and I ask questions when I don't understand. I really try not to attack people or invalidate their experience. Even if it might seem like it, that is not my intention. I just have a lot of questions, because my experience was quite different.. apparently.
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Yeah, I would like to tone it down a bit here. I am not trying to invalidate the experience of anyone at Straight, no way. Maybe we should stay away from the subject of the mutual abuse thing. It is definently the most sensitive subject for a number of us. To Withdraw: I want you to know I am a pretty nice person usually. I own a rock-n-roll type store here ( OK its a head-shop but I don't like to call it that ) and am considered an extreme non-conformist by those who know me. We would probably be friends. I very much sympathize with what happened to you in there. The situation you described with your parents hurts me to hear about. My Mother has apologized for what happened and I know how valuable that has been to me. I do not envy those who don't get that validation from their parents. I know it has to be painful.
You asked how and why we conformed with the cult. It is a huge subject, extremely complicated. Most of us don't understand it either. Thats part of the reason we are here, looking for those answers. I had excised Straight from my brain (I thought ) until about 2 years ago. I was standing in my store and that fuckin Cats in the Cradle song came on the radio. I decided to look up Straight on the net. What followed was weeks on end unable to sleep due to nightmares. I contacted a handful of people that I had been in with and they told me about Fornits. I spent a year and a half just reading posts here before I ever posted anything. I never came here spoiling for a feud with anyone and still feel that way. 100 percent.
Let me get out one more thing and I will stop rambling. I wanted you and anyone else who never made it off 1st phase to know that the abuse didn't end when we became oldcomers. It took on different forms for sure but it was always there. Example: I made it to 2nd phase at maybe 6 or 7 months in. I was 15 at the time, a growing kid and my shoes that I had worn on 1st phase had not fit for months. I had developed ingrown toenails on both of my big toes. When I could no longer walk due to the pain I was finally sent to a Straight -approved quack doctor. I thought they would deaden my feet with some meds and then cut out the ingrown part. The next thing I knew, the nurse and Straight staff are holding me down on the table. I look down as the "Doctor" was pulling my toenails out with some kind of medical pliers. First one and then the other. My screams must have been deafening to the sadists holding me down. I was taken back to the building where they tried to put me back in group but all I could do was wail in pain. They took me to an intake room to lie on the floor. My feet swole up and needless to say I was carried by other phasers for the next few days. Not one bit of pain medication was ever offered me. Both of those toes are still fucked up to this day. Worst of all, at the time I had already begun to internalize the message of the cult to the extent that I believed I deserved it. There are some things I will never be able to forgive. Most of those things occured on my upper phases. These freakin toenails are just a small part of it. Thanks. Shaggy
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...The second you pretended to go along with the program; the minute you decided to "fake it" until you could run, you made yourself open and vulnerable to brainwash. As soon as you began to just pretend you took the fatal sip.
Like a crack in a dam that only gets bigger?
Yeah, what a fucking ordeal. I thought I had it licked and everyone was treating me like a hero. But then the fanfare died down and no one was looking, that's when I got my ass kicked!
Yeah 'Amen" It wasn't the caboose that killed me and that light at the end of the tunnel is the operator. I bought it hook..line...and sinker because I wanted to, I had to at that time, " VERY SICK AND DELUSIONAL BOY ". I thought this was a reality worth substituted for I guess. WTF , who knows at 16. Many levels had to be checked out on my journey towards a rational mind again. I was damn near convinced I had entered a world of insanity (in my mind) that was w/o a exit. Fuck!!!!!!!!!
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Shaggys, (and whoever is following this drama ;p )
Ok, lets clear the air between us. I came here some years ago just by chance...and was shell shocked! The people who were here then could probably tell you, especially Ginger. I had/have so many questions, because seriously I really believed all that time that I was just a failure for not being able to conform and advance in the program. Yea, I knew I refused because somewhere inside me I knew it was fucked up and wrong.. But remember the staff and most of the phasers kept telling me "if you are actually ~normal~ you would just comply and get out".. But I couldn't.. there were times when I wanted to, but it just wouldn't happen. I found it very difficult to lie or "fake" it.. so I sat there, and sat there..It was sadly pathetic. I dreamed of a revolt based, knowing the place was bizarre, but of course that never happened... so I sat there..My program was fairly brutal, physically. I was restrained just about everyday for nothing.. except protecting my personal self when they tried to force motivate my hands. And you better believe it, I have a lot of feelings about those people who tried to physically motivate me or that restrained me.. feelings that I just can not process. I have the toughest time letting those specific people "off the hook." The people here can tell you though, I have the hardest times letting staff who come here "off the hook." Sorry, I still have very intense emotions about the people who personally abused me in Straight. I will evolve and get better at forgiving and understanding.. but for now, this is where I am at.
When I ask how, I mean actually HOW.. How do people fake it? And when I ask WHY, it isn't that I expect some answer, because I already know the answer. (knowing some of the dynamics of psychology) But, I can't stop asking it, because it is something I have no personal concept of. Therefore I have no avenue in my brain for it to fit and feel good.
I don't ~Blame the phasers..I blame the program and programming, but you must understand it is information I can not fully process and feel resolved. There are "phasers" I truly care for deeply. My last oldcommer and her Mom, for instance. I would not want to verbally hurt these people, so I try really hard to stay away from the subject. But if it is complete absolution you want from me, you are looking in the wrong place. It is something I can not allow, because to do so would force me to internalize something I can not process and feel resolved about. There seems to be a fine line between victim and perpetrator, when it comes to Straight Inc. It is so shameful they did this to us, pitting us against each other. I realize we were just kids. I realize there were adults in control and they are most to blame.
And I am not perfect, there are going to be times when I don't fully think things out before I write them and things will come out wrong or more blunt than I actually feel. I know my experience was different than most of yours, but it is just as valuable. I know my posting here provokes conversation about who is to blame, because there are times when I can only think of the actual people who spit in my face everyday, and those people were phasers! But, that doesn't mean I hate phasers or hold them 100% accountable for doing it. I come here to learn from you all, so that I can learn to understand and forgive where it is due. And honestly, there are staff and phasers I doubt I will ever forgive. As I am sure everyone of us feels at one time or another. I mean, wouldn't you like to pull that Dr.s toenails out someday?? ;p Even though it was the program who made him not use numbing medications.......It is hard to see who is truly accountable, especially in moments of raw emotion.
So, please don't respond so sensitively to me. I know my experience brings about difficult questions, but remember your experience brings about difficult questions for me too. And that little girl in me is gonna show herself and wanna know the how and why...on occasion. It is just something that part of me can not grasp, consistently. I am sorry for that, she is still hurting....As I am sure your child self is too.
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Shaggys, (and whoever is following this drama ;p )
Ok, lets clear the air between us. I came here some years ago just by chance...and was shell shocked! The people who were here then could probably tell you, especially Ginger. I had/have so many questions, because seriously I really believed all that time that I was just a failure for not being able to conform and advance in the program. Yea, I knew I refused because somewhere inside me I knew it was fucked up and wrong.. But remember the staff and most of the phasers kept telling me "if you are actually ~normal~ you would just comply and get out".. But I couldn't.. there were times when I wanted to, but it just wouldn't happen. I found it very difficult to lie or "fake" it.. so I sat there, and sat there..It was sadly pathetic. I dreamed of a revolt based, knowing the place was bizarre, but of course that never happened... so I sat there..My program was fairly brutal, physically. I was restrained just about everyday for nothing.. except protecting my personal self when they tried to force motivate my hands. And you better believe it, I have a lot of feelings about those people who tried to physically motivate me or that restrained me.. feelings that I just can not process. I have the toughest time letting those specific people "off the hook." The people here can tell you though, I have the hardest times letting staff who come here "off the hook." Sorry, I still have very intense emotions about the people who personally abused me in Straight. I will evolve and get better at forgiving and understanding.. but for now, this is where I am at.
When I ask how, I mean actually HOW.. How do people fake it? And when I ask WHY, it isn't that I expect some answer, because I already know the answer. (knowing some of the dynamics of psychology) But, I can't stop asking it, because it is something I have no personal concept of. Therefore I have no avenue in my brain for it to fit and feel good.
I don't ~Blame the phasers..I blame the program and programming, but you must understand it is information I can not fully process and feel resolved. There are "phasers" I truly care for deeply. My last oldcommer and her Mom, for instance. I would not want to verbally hurt these people, so I try really hard to stay away from the subject. But if it is complete absolution you want from me, you are looking in the wrong place. It is something I can not allow, because to do so would force me to internalize something I can not process and feel resolved about. There seems to be a fine line between victim and perpetrator, when it comes to Straight Inc. It is so shameful they did this to us, pitting us against each other. I realize we were just kids. I realize there were adults in control and they are most to blame.
And I am not perfect, there are going to be times when I don't fully think things out before I write them and things will come out wrong or more blunt than I actually feel. I know my experience was different than most of yours, but it is just as valuable. I know my posting here provokes conversation about who is to blame, because there are times when I can only think of the actual people who spit in my face everyday, and those people were phasers! But, that doesn't mean I hate phasers or hold them 100% accountable for doing it. I come here to learn from you all, so that I can learn to understand and forgive where it is due. And honestly, there are staff and phasers I doubt I will ever forgive. As I am sure everyone of us feels at one time or another. I mean, wouldn't you like to pull that Dr.s toenails out someday?? ;p Even though it was the program who made him not use numbing medications.......It is hard to see who is truly accountable, especially in moments of raw emotion.
So, please don't respond so sensitively to me. I know my experience brings about difficult questions, but remember your experience brings about difficult questions for me too. And that little girl in me is gonna show herself and wanna know the how and why...on occasion. It is just something that part of me can not grasp, consistently. I am sorry for that, she is still hurting....As I am sure your child self is too.
"""""""""AH SO"""""""" My grandmother always told me whenever I was afraid get a new box of crayons......Those crazy
Gramma's!!!!!!!!!! Love and Peace Danny