Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => World Wide Association of Specialty Programs and Schools (WWASPS) => Topic started by: Anonymous on June 17, 2009, 04:50:08 PM
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"My son seems to be so unbelievably comfortable down there that I requested to make him more uncomfortable. He is now carrying around a 10 pound box of books which is to symbolize all the crab he is carrying around. But he still doesn't get it. We decided not to go to the Family weekend because we don't see any results. Let's hope that works. But Keith, thanks a million for sharing your frustration. Sometimes I have the feeling we are the only ones being discouraged. It's good to see we are not alone."
This is proof of hideous child abuse. Actually, I am pretty sure it would be considered torture.
Can someone here contact the appropriate authorities?
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viewtopic.php?f=44&t=27681 (http://fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=27681)
I got that info here ^^^^
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As described in that post, it doesn't seem like child abuse, torture, or in any way a criminal matter. Sure it's probably pointless, but that's not necessarily torture. 10 pounds is not that much. Not everything that happens in a program is child abuse and not everything is torture (at least by itself).
The real insidious stuff that goes on in programs generally can't be put in words... not because it's too horrible... just because such psychological concepts and feelings are so hard to put into words... the stripping away of a person's beliefs, core values, even their very identity. There is nothing more damaging or more long lasting than the mental effects. Physical hurts heal quickly... mental reprogramming, not so much... and if you were a survivor, i'd suspect you'd know that, which is why...
I suspect your just a troll... probably one of the who's other personalities or some other agent provocateur. If not. Here's a tip: the very very best way to blow your "case" is to make mountains out of moehills. Do you seriously think that the goddamn FBI is going to give even the tinyest rat crap about a "troubled" kid being forced to carry a 10 pound book bag? especially when law enforcement generally carry round much larger packs on long runs during training? I don't.
What I care about is the cumulative effect of all the tiny things stacked up together into a program of thought reform (and physical/punative coercion generally does not factor into this unless it is to slowly weaken a person's resistance). Individual acts and exercise on their own which are relatively harmless are built into a program to change the way people think, and who they see themselves as, without their knowledge or consent.
You want something to go after them for? Try the angle of practicing medicine or psychotherapy without a license. Use their marketing against them. Record phone conversations with marketing looking for offers of "therapy" and specific claims about staff qualifications and the licensure of the facility itself. Check everything with the state and appropriate licensing authorities. Always ask for license numbers of credentialed staff and look them up. Programs have and do lie about lots and lots of things and qualifications are no exception. Become your own detective and only when you have a concrete case do you deliver it to the appropriate authorities. You go with a 10 pound bookbag and if they don't outright laugh you out, they'll tell you that they'll "be in contact" and you'll never hear from them again. It requires persistence, intelligence and a fighting spirit, not printing out a fucking forum message and handing it to the cops.
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We got permission to post Caroline Elise's story. While I agree that Sunset Bay Academy/Oceanside Teen center is bad for the teenagers who are detained at this facility High Impact was awful. Read and judge (http://http://secret-prisons-for-teens.blogspot.com/2009/06/story-about-high-impact.html#atabc).
That doesn't mean that we should do something for the poor soles in Rosarito. Spft investigators have written boy-/girl-friends based on the Myspace profiles of present detainees to tell them where they can find their peers and some are in the neighborhood but it is a dangerous town, so we cannot be more informative.
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As described in that post, it doesn't seem like child abuse, torture, or in any way a criminal matter. Sure it's probably pointless, but that's not necessarily torture. 10 pounds is not that much. Not everything that happens in a program is child abuse and not everything is torture (at least by itself).
The real insidious stuff that goes on in programs generally can't be put in words... not because it's too horrible... just because such psychological concepts and feelings are so hard to put into words... the stripping away of a person's beliefs, core values, even their very identity. There is nothing more damaging or more long lasting than the mental effects. Physical hurts heal quickly... mental reprogramming, not so much... and if you were a survivor, i'd suspect you'd know that, which is why...
I suspect your just a troll... probably one of the who's other personalities or some other agent provocateur. If not. Here's a tip: the very very best way to blow your "case" is to make mountains out of moehills. Do you seriously think that the goddamn FBI is going to give even the tinyest rat crap about a "troubled" kid being forced to carry a 10 pound book bag? especially when law enforcement generally carry round much larger packs on long runs during training? I don't.
What I care about is the cumulative effect of all the tiny things stacked up together into a program of thought reform (and physical/punative coercion generally does not factor into this unless it is to slowly weaken a person's resistance). Individual acts and exercise on their own which are relatively harmless are built into a program to change the way people think, and who they see themselves as, without their knowledge or consent.
You want something to go after them for? Try the angle of practicing medicine or psychotherapy without a license. Use their marketing against them. Record phone conversations with marketing looking for offers of "therapy" and specific claims about staff qualifications and the licensure of the facility itself. Check everything with the state and appropriate licensing authorities. Always ask for license numbers of credentialed staff and look them up. Programs have and do lie about lots and lots of things and qualifications are no exception. Become your own detective and only when you have a concrete case do you deliver it to the appropriate authorities. You go with a 10 pound bookbag and if they don't outright laugh you out, they'll tell you that they'll "be in contact" and you'll never hear from them again. It requires persistence, intelligence and a fighting spirit, not printing out a fucking forum message and handing it to the cops.
i didn't bother to read your entire response. Stopped at "i expect youre a troll."
I can assure you forcing ANYONE to carry ten pounds of anything morning till night, for days, weeks, months, years, to force them to embrace a belief and with the stated intention of causing suffering is a criminal manner.
Could you do that to a POW? No. As a point of reference, anything that would be illegal to do to a POW, or a convicted criminal, is likely to contstitute "abuse." Cops CHOOSE to carry around bags, its not a "breaking" technique forced on them under threat of further imprisonment and greater torture because they are "so bad they need to suffer." Ridiculous comparison
Something near identical was done to Kat whithead's friend, and was one of the horrors presented to the GAO. (forced to carry rocks until she appeared to beleive she was a "sex addict")Its evil.
Any lawyers out there, or shrinks, or anyone with time or the initiative (CAFETY?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) interested in fowarding this to the appropriate authorities?
thanks
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Psy, disillusionment is never easy.
Here, guest. Try calling them yourself. FBI, CPS, State Department. Let us know how far it gets you.
If the American authorities gave two shits about the basic rights of children there wouldn't be a Fornits.
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i didn't bother to read your entire response. Stopped at "i expect youre a troll."
Well then you sort of missed half the point. Reread the post. You're focusing on magnifying the details and not on how they fit into the puzzle of the bigger picture. The authorities won't care unless you can show there is a pattern, and even then, they probably have their hands tied as each of these tiny things on their own don't constitute any sort of crime.
I can assure you forcing ANYONE to carry ten pounds of anything morning till night, for days, weeks, months, years, to force them to embrace a belief and with the stated intention of causing suffering is a criminal manner.
But that's not what the post said, now did it? Even if it did, it's double-heresay and completely inadmissible as evidence (you heard it from a parent who heard it from staff who heard it from etc...). If you want to take the program out, reread my post and look to the latter portion for advice. It's what's worked in the past and can work in the future. The criminal angle does not work so well. Civil action and appealing to licensing authorities, on the other hand, has had a fair deal of success.
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I remember there was a similar technique used in High Impact, I was forced to carry a bag of sand in a potato sack on my shoulders... Now granted this thing was at least 35 lbs and was extremely uncomfortable to carry, I bet the significance is still the same today as it was in my day at WWASP. to degrade and break the will into complying with confessions of issues that were outside the scope of logical.
I know this might sound unsympathetic, but its almost nice to see WWASP is cleaning up their act even in the slightest... I would have given my left arm to be allowed to carry just a 10 lb box. I think the point Psy made tho is important, you wont get anywhere telling the FBI that this boy is being abused because he is forced to carry a 10 lb box. The work we are doing, what CAFETY is working on, is encouraging legislation that will create an agency that is trained and knowledgeable enough to determine that this kind of thing is only the tip of the ice burg, and signifies the existence of psychological abuse in this facility.
I know some of you think regulation wont work, or will cause more problems, but its really the only option available to get an agency of the government to even understand our plight. I'll tell you, if I worked at CPS or the FBI I would take these reports seriously but that's only because I have personal experience with the innerworkings of a program like WWASP. At this point, the FBI and CPS have no interest in residential treatment programs and in most cases they don't have the authority to interfere with a private facility unless there is empirical evidence of abuse.
You want to spur an investigation that will free that kid?... go undercover. get some video footage of illegal and unethical activity, bring it to the cops who might have jurisdiction over the area the program operates in and make a formal complaint. Footage by inside edition is what got High Impact shut down and lead to the closure of CBS, the authorities in the area should already be aware of WWASP as a problem, it shouldn't be too hard to spur an investigation. You wont have a ton of options going to the police in the US, they dont have jurisdiction in Mexico, but you might be able to get somewhere with CPS, or another state accountability agency, they might be able to take on some of the negotiations with the authorities in Mexico. I would recommend California, they have the most comprehensive laws concerning child protection, theres a reason there are no WWASP facilities in CA.
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The real insidious stuff that goes on in programs generally can't be put in words... not because it's too horrible... just because such psychological concepts and feelings are so hard to put into words... the stripping away of a person's beliefs, core values, even their very identity. There is nothing more damaging or more long lasting than the mental effects. Physical hurts heal quickly... mental reprogramming, not so much... and if you were a survivor, i'd suspect you'd know that
Stop being such a drama queen. What you went through does not warrant your response, and that goes for most of you.
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I remember there was a similar technique used in High Impact, I was forced to carry a bag of sand in a potato sack on my shoulders... at least 35 lbs .. its almost nice to see WWASP is cleaning up their act even in the slightest... I would have given my left arm to be allowed to carry just a 10 lb box.
You went full retard.
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But that's not what the post said, now did it? Even if it did, it's double-heresay and completely inadmissible as evidence (you heard it from a parent who heard it from staff who heard it from etc...). quote]
Actually, the parent said he forced the kid to walk around with 10 pound box of books at all times to symbolize the crap he's carrying, something the kid is now doing. Whether that's admissable or not is up to the authoritites. I am quite aware that this is in a greater context of torment, and I object to the psychological damages caused by being treated thusly, more than the potential physical ones
Please, theres no reason to argue against TRYING to do something about this situation.
So, CAFETY, or whomever has the contacts to do something, please do so
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But that's not what the post said, now did it? Even if it did, it's double-heresay and completely inadmissible as evidence (you heard it from a parent who heard it from staff who heard it from etc...).
Actually, the parent said he forced the kid to walk around with 10 pound box of books at all times to symbolize the crap he's carrying, something the kid is now doing. Whether that's admissable or not is up to the authoritites. I am quite aware that this is in a greater context of torment, and I object to the psychological damages caused by being treated thusly, more than the potential physical ones
Please, theres no reason to argue against TRYING to do something about this situation.
So, CAFETY, or whomever has the contacts to do something, please do so
And you are prevented from contacting them yourself.....HOW? Both Blombrowski and Kat have user names on this forum, whats stopping you from PMing them?
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But that's not what the post said, now did it? Even if it did, it's double-heresay and completely inadmissible as evidence (you heard it from a parent who heard it from staff who heard it from etc...).
Actually, the parent said he forced the kid to walk around with 10 pound box of books at all times to symbolize the crap he's carrying, something the kid is now doing. Whether that's admissable or not is up to the authoritites. I am quite aware that this is in a greater context of torment, and I object to the psychological damages caused by being treated thusly, more than the potential physical ones
Please, theres no reason to argue against TRYING to do something about this situation.
So, CAFETY, or whomever has the contacts to do something, please do so
And you are prevented from contacting them yourself.....HOW? Both Blombrowski and Kat have user names on this forum, whats stopping you from PMing them?
I have an idea: let's be antagonistic, sanctimonious and disrespectful to each other for no reason. The beauty of the internet. Weeee!
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I remember there was a similar technique used in High Impact, I was forced to carry a bag of sand in a potato sack on my shoulders... at least 35 lbs .. its almost nice to see WWASP is cleaning up their act even in the slightest... I would have given my left arm to be allowed to carry just a 10 lb box.
You went full retard.
ya, and uphill. both ways.
and you can kindly fuckoff.
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Please, theres no reason to argue against TRYING to do something about this situation.
Yes there is. If you come off as an extremist, you damage the entire cause as it reflects on all of "us". If and when there is actually something of import to bring to the feds, the'll just ignore it as "another one of those loons". Either you are incredibly naive, or you're doing this on purpose (troll of type agent provocateur). Frankly, on matters like this, I trust my instincts When something seems fishy, it usually is. If in the rare possibility that I am wrong and you are just naive. Please, for the sake of us all, don't go encouraging others to call the feds up with things like 10 pound bags. Get something solid.
So, CAFETY, or whomever has the contacts to do something, please do so
LOL... You haven't been around long, have you?
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So, CAFETY, or whomever has the contacts to do something, please do so
LOL... You haven't been around long, have you?
Yea seriously, just to give you an idea I'm going to quote CAFETY's section in their brochure about reporting abuse
"Unfortunately there are significant obstacles to effectively
report abuse in a residential treatment center. These may
include but are not limited to, censored contact with anyone
who is not a current staff or employee of the facility, limits
in state policy within Child Protective Services - particularly
within facilities which are privately funded, the stipulation
that the reporter must be an adult, and often times the
report will be ineffective unless the reporter can show
evidence that the abuse is occurring at the present time.
There are also significant gap from the time the abuse is
reported and the actual execution of an appropriate
investigation."
Currently we are working on creating a system to handle reports of abuse and putting together some material to grant advice to people who are trying to file complaints against an RTC... but clearly, CAFETY has no more "contacts" then you do.
If this is something you are serious about your gonna have to put in the work to gather indisputable evidence, you might need to wait until the child is out of the school and encourage HIM to file a report alleging abuse. I know its surprising that abuse in RTC's is so wide spread and the authorities aren't doing anything about it but unfortunately there are just many different factors that make it a significant challenge. There are thousands of kids in programs as we speak, we cant file reports on behalf of each individual kid based on every rumor that flies across Fornits, I'd like to think our efforts are a bit more streamlined, were attempting to cut the snake at the head so to speak. I cant speak for everyone here because we are all kinda doing our own thing based on our own beliefs about this issue, but I think we are doing what we can to address the big picture, the root of the problem. and until we are completely successful stuff like this boy and the 10 lb box is just outside the scope of our control.
As Psy said, if we ran to the authorities everytime we here about something like this we would quickly create a distrust of our cause. We already have to fight the stigma of being activists and unfortunately even human rights activists get a stigma... this kind of thing is just not something we can place our reputation on alone, these kinds of issues we can only compile and report.
I'm sorry.
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My first reaction when I read this was "hmm, calling CPS might be a good idea", then I looked for the parent's name and the youth's name. No info.
CAFETY has no special powers. Mostly anything we can do, you as a concerned citizen can do yourself, though it helps with complex cases to coordinate efforts and have relationships with professionals with certain skill sets. If we had the parents name, and her name was attached to the posting. a call into CPS could be reported against the parent. Given the situation, you might consider putting a call into Disability Rights California who has the legal authority to inspect abuse at all facilities in California where any disabled individual is treated. This kind of treatment could be perfectly legal in California, I know that in some states this would be considered corporal punishment and would be banned. A call from a concerned individual who saw the post and just wanted to make sure that such practices were legal would be perfectly legitimate. Chances are neither CPS or DRC would take any action, but at least you can put this on their radar.
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Please, theres no reason to argue against TRYING to do something about this situation.
Yes there is. If you come off as an extremist, you damage the entire cause as it reflects on all of "us". If and when there is actually something of import to bring to the feds, the'll just ignore it as "another one of those loons". Either you are incredibly naive, or you're doing this on purpose (troll of type agent provocateur). Frankly, on matters like this, I trust my instincts When something seems fishy, it usually is. If in the rare possibility that I am wrong and you are just naive. Please, for the sake of us all, don't go encouraging others to call the feds up with things like 10 pound bags. Get something solid.
So, CAFETY, or whomever has the contacts to do something, please do so
LOL... You haven't been around long, have you?
If you think being forced to carry 10 pound bags ALL the time because of some vague charge upon your character does not qualify as abuse than you are an obtuse moron, and should not be administrating a forum that is dedicated to calling attention to human and civil rights abuses. If something smells fishy it might be your lower lip.
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My first reaction when I read this was "hmm, calling CPS might be a good idea", then I looked for the parent's name and the youth's name. No info.
CAFETY has no special powers. Mostly anything we can do, you as a concerned citizen can do yourself, though it helps with complex cases to coordinate efforts and have relationships with professionals with certain skill sets. If we had the parents name, and her name was attached to the posting. a call into CPS could be reported against the parent. Given the situation, you might consider putting a call into Disability Rights California who has the legal authority to inspect abuse at all facilities in California where any disabled individual is treated. This kind of treatment could be perfectly legal in California, I know that in some states this would be considered corporal punishment and would be banned. A call from a concerned individual who saw the post and just wanted to make sure that such practices were legal would be perfectly legitimate. Chances are neither CPS or DRC would take any action, but at least you can put this on their radar.
CPS seems to be very inconstant with investigating these issues. I know people who have been investigated for "seeming angry" while applying for disability...but something as cruel as "parent" ordering their kid they had locked up carry weight around all the time "too make him less comfortable" and refusing to even visit him because he is not good enough there is nothing that will be done? Please, bloom, or cafety, at least try with this and call the relevant authorities.
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I've not read every post here - but I did read the apparent post from an apparent WWASP parent saying their son was being made to pack around 10 pounds of books until he "gets real". I read were FemanonFatal said she was glad to read WWASP had modified their behavior, even if only a little bit. (I paraphrase) But I would like to point out - if the boys folks are told he is packing 10 pounds of books, reality might be a 50 pound rock. This parent post confirms for me the sad fact nothing has changed.
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My son seems to be so unbelievably comfortable down there that I requested to make him more uncomfortable. He is now carrying around a 10 pound box of books which is to symbolize all the crab he is carrying around. But he still doesn't get it. We decided not to go to the Family weekend because we don't see any results. Let's hope that works. But Keith, thanks a million for sharing your frustration. Sometimes I have the feeling we are the only ones being discouraged. It's good to see we are not alone.--
To all the people implying that the above does not qualify as a description of abuse, please investigate the defintions of physical and emotional abuse, and torment. In every sence of the word, esepcially considering these "parents" paid to have their teen son abducted and imprisoned in an oversight-free for-profit gulag, this is a post describing major psychological and physical abuse and cruelty.
http://www.ridalaskaofchildabuse.org/EmotionalCA.html (http://www.ridalaskaofchildabuse.org/EmotionalCA.html)
http://www.findcounseling.com/journal/c ... abuse.html (http://www.findcounseling.com/journal/child-abuse/emotional-abuse.html)
http://rakesprogress.wordpress.com/2009 ... ild-abuse/ (http://rakesprogress.wordpress.com/2009/03/11/mom-gets-2-10-years-in-prison-for-child-abuse/)
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Let's be clear here. What this parent is describing is abuse. Let's roleplay calling CPS however.
Reporter: Hi I'd like to report an incident of child abuse
CPS: Please describe the abuse that you witnessed?
Reporter: A parent on an internet forum said that Sunrise Academy was making her son carry 10 lbs. of books around as punishment and she supported it
CPS: Do you know this parent or child
Reporter: No
CPS: Do you know the name of this parent or child
Reporter: No
CPS: Well sir, without the child's or the parent's name there's nothing we can do about it
Have you ever been on the subway or train and witnessed a child being slapped and wanted to call CPS? Without being able to identify the perp there's really nothing that can be done or that CPS is willing to do.
Disability Rights California might take an interest in a case like this, but given the P & A's shortage of staffing, they might consider this a wild goose chase that isn't worth their time, still worth a call into them though. Investigating MBA took one staff member, a supreme court case, and ten current and former students who were willing to come forward, and the school is still open and receiving students.
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To all the people implying that the above does not qualify as a description of abuse, please investigate the defintions of physical and emotional abuse, and torment.
Listen I never said this didn't constitute abuse, in fact i believe I stated that this is only the tip of the ice burg of what other abuses are undoubtedly happening here. It's not that I don't care about this boy, believe me the only reason I am here on this forum in the first place is because I care about being a part of the solution. What I said was in order to for us to make an effective claim we will need to bring forth more evidence. Believe me I have considered the undercover thing myself, if my name weren't all over the internet opposing problems I would have taken the job they were hiring off craigslist to work at Oceanside.
Your getting all riled up at us because we mention there are significant roadblocks to completing your request, that just isn't helping the situation. You want us to help you will have to devote yourself to bringing us something we can report. OR if you need to see this done YOU have just as much power to call CPS as we do, so why is it all of a sudden we are to blame for inaction when you haven't bothered to make a call yourself.
I'm sure all of us would be happy to assist in an investigation if one is launched on behalf of this child, but beyond that we don't have any more authority to influence state agencies until legislation is passed to make it possible for us to do so. THAT is what CAFETY is doing to help this boy and all the other kids and families effected by the troubled teen industry... so be patient, in time things like this will be easier to report or be done away with all together.
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To all the people implying that the above does not qualify as a description of abuse, please investigate the defintions of physical and emotional abuse, and torment.
Listen I never said this didn't constitute abuse, in fact i believe I stated that this is only the tip of the ice burg of what other abuses are undoubtedly happening here. It's not that I don't care about this boy, believe me the only reason I am here on this forum in the first place is because I care about being a part of the solution. What I said was in order to for us to make an effective claim we will need to bring forth more evidence. Believe me I have considered the undercover thing myself, if my name weren't all over the internet opposing problems I would have taken the job they were hiring off craigslist to work at Oceanside.
Your getting all riled up at us because we mention there are significant roadblocks to completing your request, that just isn't helping the situation. You want us to help you will have to devote yourself to bringing us something we can report. OR if you need to see this done YOU have just as much power to call CPS as we do, so why is it all of a sudden we are to blame for inaction when you haven't bothered to make a call yourself.
I'm sure all of us would be happy to assist in an investigation if one is launched on behalf of this child, but beyond that we don't have any more authority to influence state agencies until legislation is passed to make it possible for us to do so. THAT is what CAFETY is doing to help this boy and all the other kids and families effected by the troubled teen industry... so be patient, in time things like this will be easier to report or be done away with all together.
I am not getting "all riled up" about anything. I was called a "troll" several times, and was told, essentially, what is being done to this boy is a-ok. Hence, some of my responses.
In my experience, "arbitrary" person calling these bodies do not get the same response as an agency, for what that’s worth. But I understand you now, no one at any agency is willing to make any call.
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Also, let me apologize for being somewhat rude, or anything negative. I really only want this poor kid not to be tormented. :'(
I know that "I" am not the person suited to stopping this madness because of my own PTSD and "fear" problems. I don't even stand up for myself when I get assaulted or abused. I am just not capable of standing up for other people very well, like I assume some of you are. So I ask "cafety" to help, or whomever. Please do not assume that makes me, I don't know, whatever various things I have been accused of being.
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To all the people implying that the above does not qualify as a description of abuse, please investigate the defintions of physical and emotional abuse, and torment.
Listen I never said this didn't constitute abuse, in fact i believe I stated that this is only the tip of the ice burg of what other abuses are undoubtedly happening here. It's not that I don't care about this boy, believe me the only reason I am here on this forum in the first place is because I care about being a part of the solution. What I said was in order to for us to make an effective claim we will need to bring forth more evidence. Believe me I have considered the undercover thing myself, if my name weren't all over the internet opposing problems I would have taken the job they were hiring off craigslist to work at Oceanside.
Your getting all riled up at us because we mention there are significant roadblocks to completing your request, that just isn't helping the situation. You want us to help you will have to devote yourself to bringing us something we can report. OR if you need to see this done YOU have just as much power to call CPS as we do, so why is it all of a sudden we are to blame for inaction when you haven't bothered to make a call yourself.
I'm sure all of us would be happy to assist in an investigation if one is launched on behalf of this child, but beyond that we don't have any more authority to influence state agencies until legislation is passed to make it possible for us to do so. THAT is what CAFETY is doing to help this boy and all the other kids and families effected by the troubled teen industry... so be patient, in time things like this will be easier to report or be done away with all together.
I am not getting "all riled up" about anything. I was called a "troll" several times, and was told, essentially, what is being done to this boy is a-ok. Hence, some of my responses.
In my experience, "arbitrary" person calling these bodies do not get the same response as an agency, for what that’s worth. But I understand you now, no one at any agency is willing to make any call.
then maybe you are confused as to what Fornits is, we are not an agency, we are just people like you and everyone else. we have no power over the government or the FBI to make them take our concerns seriously, and that's why we work in specific ways, all we can do is compile evidence, as in testimonies, photos, videos and various resources and bring it to the attention of our law makers, because at this point CPS and the FBI don't take our claims serious, and certainly not the local police. As i mentioned before this would also be a matter or jurisdiction being as the program in question is located in mexico. If you as a concerned citizen would like to make a complaint against the parent who is knowledgeable about their son being mistreated and has no mind to intervene then I can assure you CAFETY would be happy to back you up by coordinating with the investigator to understand that this kind of method represents a widespread problem. As well I would be willing to answer any questions, and can corroborate that these methods were used in a psychologically abusive manner, but I can't put my name on this report as the initial complaint. I hope you understand that my reputation with these agencies has a great deal to do with how seriously I am taken when I report the serious abuses that I have found empirical evidence to support.
I'm sorry if that sounds as if I don't care, that is truly not the case, its simply that I cannot rescue each and every child that is being abused in a residential treatment facility one by one, I cannot make 5 million complaints against parents who have their kids in RTC's and I cannot get riled up about every report that comes my way... I am well aware of the abuse in RTC's and it breaks my heart I can't save them all right now, but I think I am acting on in the most efficient and effective way by helping to address the root of the problem and facilitate change, if not complete abolishment of the Troubled Teen Industry.
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Why don't you email someone at CAFETY directly instead of speculating here? I'm sure they'd be more than supportive and someone would be willing to make the call if you feel uncomfortable doing so. Calling on investigators can be intimidating.
Try any of these people who have their emails listed:
http://cafety.org/board-of-advisors (http://cafety.org/board-of-advisors)
http://cafety.org/board (http://cafety.org/board)
I'm sure someone will help you.
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Currently we are working on creating a system to handle reports of abuse and putting together some material to grant advice to people who are trying to file complaints against an RTC...
No. Cafety is chatting amongst themselves about what to do and politicians will humor them about it. Anybody can make an organization. Whether it does anything or not is relatively pointless. Tell me this: What has CAFETY actually accomplished? What of consequence have they actually done? Have they taken down even a single program?
ISAC (the Earnshaws and volunteers) have done that. Dedicated individuals at fornits like Deborah have done that merely by digging up information and getting it into the public sphere and into the hands of the right people. Maia has done a hell of a lot of damage. What has CAFETY done, other than politick and posture?
The point of what I'm getting at is: don't rely on the government. Don't rely on organizations or groups. Be an individual. Work with others, sure, but don't belong to them and don't expect them to belong to you. You say you admire anonymous. Isn't that "standalone complex" phenomenon what you are supposed to stand for? Teamwork does not always have to be withing a group. All it takes to kill a program is dedication and hard work. Expecting the government to step in is the worst kind of self deception based on a lack of faith in your own ability. Fantasy legislation such as allowing CAFETY members into RTCs to inspect will NEVER come to pass. Don't get me wrong. I favor complete abolition of all involutary treatment, humane or otherwise. I just think you're going about it in a very very naive manner. Protip: listen to people like Ginger, Shelby, Barbe, and others who have been in this for a long time and learn from them. Otherwise you'll just end up repeating their mistakes.
When I first came to fornits, I thought regulation was the key. Turns out, I was wrong. I was very, very, wrong. Mark my words. Even if you suceed in regulation, it will do more harm than good. Find another stratefy. Use the press, become the press, credential and licensing issues... Use what has worked and don't bother with what has failed. Look to how US based programs have been shut down in the past for that.
PS: I apologize in advance for being a bitch. Just in a bad mood is all... Still. I mean what I say.
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My first reaction when I read this was "hmm, calling CPS might be a good idea", then I looked for the parent's name and the youth's name. No info.
CAFETY has no special powers. Mostly anything we can do, you as a concerned citizen can do yourself, though it helps with complex cases to coordinate efforts and have relationships with professionals with certain skill sets.
FUCKING AMEN!
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Chances are neither CPS or DRC would take any action, but at least you can put this on their radar.
Or they'll flag any critics of the program as complete lunatics for even suggesting a 10 pound bookbag on it's own is abuse. People are prejudiced and "the boy who cried wolf" gets blamed on the group, sadly.
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Chances are neither CPS or DRC would take any action, but at least you can put this on their radar.
Or they'll flag any critics of the program as complete lunatics for even suggesting a 10 pound bookbag on it's own is abuse. People are prejudiced and "the boy who cried wolf" gets blamed on the group, sadly.
If ya read correctly, the implication's that this boy is being forced to carry a 10 pound "bag of books" all the time, to the extent that he is made "uncomfortable" because he's bad, and has caused a situation which is completely out of his control, until he breaks, or whatever these parents are looking for. Please stop misrelating what’s in the post again, and again. This is in the greater context of the institutionalized setting, and in the WWASP institutions which are famously abusive.
Educate yourself about the cumulative physical and psychological effects of enduring discomfort or pain deliberately induced by a captor. Was Kat Whithead’s friend being forced to carry around stones not abuse, then? I can't believe I am explaining this on fornits!
If you are worried about being critics “in general” being "flagged as lunatics" based on what individuals say, you might want to reconsider calling A.A. a cult every other sentence, or ranting about never getting govt involved in protecting people from torment--which many people find pretty friggin “loony.”
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Why don't you email someone at CAFETY directly instead of speculating here? I'm sure they'd be more than supportive and someone would be willing to make the call if you feel uncomfortable doing so. Calling on investigators can be intimidating.
Try any of these people who have their emails listed:
http://cafety.org/board-of-advisors (http://cafety.org/board-of-advisors)
http://cafety.org/board (http://cafety.org/board)
I'm sure someone will help you.
This is what I am going to do.
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Don't let the red admin title under psy's name convince you otherwise, the guy is certifiable. He lives for the red admin title under his name and he even told me it's his main purpose in life and he wouldn't know what he'd do if he didn't have fornits and all the people he met through here. It's sad really, because he is on many medications and still in treatment for persistent mental health problems.
If you assume psy is more intelligent or somehow representative of any anti program coalition you are mistaken. Antigen chose psy to admin because he is the only one who will do it for free and nerdy enough to know how. I talked to antigen about it, and she says he calls her often and sometimes accidentely calls her 'mommy'. What kind of person in their twenties calls someone 'mommy', even if by mistake? We are talking about some serious damaged goods here people.
To psy, a child forced to carry a weighted down backpack all day is not abusive, but staff not allowing for him to have his laptop, is. To psy, flying thousands of miles to stalk your former program and it's clients with a video camera is kosher, but names being posted of kids in a program is 'extreme'. This place is so funny, keep it up fornits freaks, keep pumping the free entertainment out at this pace and I might cancel my cable.
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Chances are neither CPS or DRC would take any action, but at least you can put this on their radar.
Or they'll flag any critics of the program as complete lunatics for even suggesting a 10 pound bookbag on it's own is abuse. People are prejudiced and "the boy who cried wolf" gets blamed on the group, sadly.
If ya read correctly, the implication's that this boy is being forced to carry a 10 pound "bag of books" all the time, to the extent that he is made "uncomfortable" because he's bad, and has caused a situation which is completely out of his control, until he breaks, or whatever these parents are looking for. Please stop misrelating what’s in the post again, and again. This is in the greater context of the institutionalized setting, and in the WWASP institutions which are famously abusive.
Educate yourself about the cumulative physical and psychological effects of enduring discomfort or pain deliberately induced by a captor. Was Kat Whithead’s friend being forced to carry around stones not abuse, then? I can't believe I am explaining this on fornits!
If you are worried about being critics “in general” being "flagged as lunatics" based on what individuals say, you might want to reconsider calling A.A. a cult every other sentence, or ranting about never getting govt involved in protecting people from torment--which many people find pretty friggin “loony.”
Never called AA a cult. Called it "cult-like". Never said WWASP institutions weren't abusive of this program wasnt. Just said a 10 pound bookbag ON IT'S OWN was not abusive. I was very clear on this. reread my fucking earlier posts as I was very clear on this.
... idiot
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Currently we are working on creating a system to handle reports of abuse and putting together some material to grant advice to people who are trying to file complaints against an RTC...
No. Cafety is chatting amongst themselves about what to do and politicians will humor them about it. Anybody can make an organization. Whether it does anything or not is relatively pointless. Tell me this: What has CAFETY actually accomplished? What of consequence have they actually done? Have they taken down even a single program?
Look Psy, you have no idea what CAFETY has been doing because you have taken no interest in working with them. It makes no sense to start brow-beating our fellow organizations just because you may not agree with their strategy.
The fact of the matter is CAFETY is a new organization, they are still getting their shit together, and meanwhile any advocacy work is volunteered between work and school schedules... I've been working pretty closely with them in the last few months and I still stand in awe with their dedication. Most times reaching into their own pocket to help this cause along or just helping people in general... I know there's no way for you to know this, but I invite you not to assume that they are simply "chatting amongst themselves" when you don't even care to be part of the conversation.
BTW, as I mentioned, CAFETY is currently working on a strategy to handle reports of abuse. An email account is being set up and one of us will handle the correspondence, this I assume will be mailing out pamphlets and emails containing information, advice and instructions. I'm sure that there will also be a member of CAFETY who would be willing to grant advocacy for serious complaints but for things like this report, we would only be able to compile complaints, testimony and evidence before we would have a case to file an official complaint against the facility.
I'm sorry you have so little faith in the government, I can't say I have much myself, but I do think there are enough good people out there that eventually we will be heard and changes will be made. Regulation is definitely not the be all end all solution, we are all aware of that, but really that's just the first step to completely outlawing the troubled teen industry. I don't understand how you could be in support of complete abolishment yet oppose the steps to get there. Even if regulation completely fails, as long as a monitoring agency is set up that is the biggest step we could take toward making some changes. That way things like this report about this boy and the 10 lb box will no longer go ignored.
I have to be honest here, your a bit out of line, all doom and gloom never changed anything. We may have limitations but we have to fight that, fight for the human rights of institutionalized youth. That's what CAFETY is doing, and sorry to say it but that's more than you are doing, so try to give them a little bit of credit.
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Chances are neither CPS or DRC would take any action, but at least you can put this on their radar.
Or they'll flag any critics of the program as complete lunatics for even suggesting a 10 pound bookbag on it's own is abuse. People are prejudiced and "the boy who cried wolf" gets blamed on the group, sadly.
If ya read correctly, the implication's that this boy is being forced to carry a 10 pound "bag of books" all the time, to the extent that he is made "uncomfortable" because he's bad, and has caused a situation which is completely out of his control, until he breaks, or whatever these parents are looking for. Please stop misrelating what’s in the post again, and again. This is in the greater context of the institutionalized setting, and in the WWASP institutions which are famously abusive.
Educate yourself about the cumulative physical and psychological effects of enduring discomfort or pain deliberately induced by a captor. Was Kat Whithead’s friend being forced to carry around stones not abuse, then? I can't believe I am explaining this on fornits!
If you are worried about being critics “in general” being "flagged as lunatics" based on what individuals say, you might want to reconsider calling A.A. a cult every other sentence, or ranting about never getting govt involved in protecting people from torment--which many people find pretty friggin “loony.”
Never called AA a cult. Called it "cult-like". Never said WWASP institutions weren't abusive of this program wasnt. Just said a 10 pound bookbag ON IT'S OWN was not abusive. I was very clear on this. reread my fucking earlier posts as I was very clear on this.
... idiot
i see the point you are trying to make..it is a good one. I am sorry if I am was rude. So easy to loose your temper on the internet. Re-read the post of the father's. Its really not just an issue of a kid carrying a weighted bag.
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Don't let the red admin title under psy's name convince you otherwise, the guy is certifiable. He lives for the red admin title under his name and he even told me it's his main purpose in life and he wouldn't know what he'd do if he didn't have fornits and all the people he met through here. It's sad really, because he is on many medications and still in treatment for persistent mental health problems.
If you assume psy is more intelligent or somehow representative of any anti program coalition you are mistaken. Antigen chose psy to admin because he is the only one who will do it for free and nerdy enough to know how. I talked to antigen about it, and she says he calls her often and sometimes accidentely calls her 'mommy'. What kind of person in their twenties calls someone 'mommy', even if by mistake? We are talking about some serious damaged goods here people.
To psy, a child forced to carry a weighted down backpack all day is not abusive, but staff not allowing for him to have his laptop, is. To psy, flying thousands of miles to stalk your former program and it's clients with a video camera is kosher, but names being posted of kids in a program is 'extreme'. This place is so funny, keep it up fornits freaks, keep pumping the free entertainment out at this pace and I might cancel my cable.
Im all for stalking your former program. Psy is a great guy. I wish we all could be politer and easier on eachother,in general.
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Don't let the red admin title under psy's name convince you otherwise, the guy is certifiable. He lives for the red admin title under his name and he even told me it's his main purpose in life and he wouldn't know what he'd do if he didn't have fornits and all the people he met through here. It's sad really, because he is on many medications and still in treatment for persistent mental health problems.
If you assume psy is more intelligent or somehow representative of any anti program coalition you are mistaken. Antigen chose psy to admin because he is the only one who will do it for free and nerdy enough to know how. I talked to antigen about it, and she says he calls her often and sometimes accidentely calls her 'mommy'. What kind of person in their twenties calls someone 'mommy', even if by mistake? We are talking about some serious damaged goods here people.
To psy, a child forced to carry a weighted down backpack all day is not abusive, but staff not allowing for him to have his laptop, is. To psy, flying thousands of miles to stalk your former program and it's clients with a video camera is kosher, but names being posted of kids in a program is 'extreme'. This place is so funny, keep it up fornits freaks, keep pumping the free entertainment out at this pace and I might cancel my cable.
Im all for stalking your former program. Psy is a great guy. I wish we all could be politer and easier on eachother,in general.
Yea I ditto that, :hug: for everyone!
The guy who posted that on the other hand.... has got to be THE biggest douchebag... obsessed much?... god get a fucking life.
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Making changes is a slow process and CAFETY is doing what they can based on the strategy they have chosen and respect for that.
Here in Denmark it took the organization of former children from Godhavn (http://http://www.radiogodhavn.dk/) 5 years to get access to the people in the top of our political system. Now they got their investigation. We now know that beside the abuse, corporal punishment etc. they were also used as guinea pigs for new medicine, because as foster kids they could be dispensed.
Instead of critizing other watch-organization ignore them if you don't agree of how they operate. Sometime we at spft are happy to discover that our work is picked up and used by other organizations which can use our info to attack a program from an angle we didn't think of. I happened just this month with a program located on Fiji. Let's help each other instead of fighting each other. We don't care who gets credit for shutting a program down in the end as long as the progams go down.
In fact we have a challenges for some of you:
Is FET (http://http://wiki.fornits.com/index.php?title=Future_Expectations_Today) still in operation?
Is those houses (http://http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewImage&friendID=69277584&albumID=532534&imageID=5384895) the punishment cells in Mexico or are they from his persons (http://http://www.myspace.com/captainna) present job?
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Is those houses (http://http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewImage&friendID=69277584&albumID=532534&imageID=5384895) the punishment cells in Mexico or are they from his persons (http://http://www.myspace.com/captainna) present job?
that guy is totally creepy.
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Yeah, ew, CREEPY in a very unsubtle way. I taste bile.
Why is Che Gookin F*ing around posting family albums; when some of his creative rage could be constructively directed toward such a cause as this nasty bugger?
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I think that having to carry around 10 lbs a day to symbolize all the crabs you are carrying around is definitly abuse. That goes without saying. I mean, honsetly, it is sick and twisted, and I almost have to laugh at the fools with that come up with this shit.
And the woman who wrote that post about her son is basically crazy. She's a fucking nut job, and if this poor guy makes it through to adulthood as a sane and good person, he will have accomplished much just in doing that. It really is a shame that there are so many sick fucks in the world. I would love to see that bitch in a program..LMAO!
getting back to the whole crab thing.. It is not so much the weight that is the issue, but just the mere act. It is psychological abuse. Every second that this kid carries that rock around, he is taking physical actions to help them humilate and degrade him, and he has to continue to do it, and when those books get heavy, he has to fight to make a fool of himself. And anyone who says that 10 lbs isn t heavy, I'd like to see you carry it around 24/7. I have actually done it, but I did it as a workout.
But the FBI really doesn t care. It is understandable to hear stories like these and just want to do something to help, but the FBI has other things to worry about, but a post on the internet. How do you even know the post is legit? I think it is and all, but how do you know?
My point of veiw, personally on putting an end to these atrocities, is through spreading the true facts about them, and giving them a bad public image.
Someone said that forcing this guy to carry these books around is not illegal. You bet your ass it is! There is at least 1 law, probably many more, that could be applied, but the problem is that laws are open to intepretation, and right noone is going to find the right laws and apply them.
Also, new laws can be made too. And watch laws will eventually be applied, and perhaps, even new laws applied.
When the socail conscience turns against these places, the laws will applied. It WILL happen.
I have heard the posters here at Fornits referred to as "Outlanders", but eventually, the ideas here in regards to these place will be the norm. "Abolition" had to start somewhere, too.
Since I have been vewing this site and many others, I have heard many times about law suits and such. I am not sure if any of them panned out,
BUT
If you work to spread awareness of these places and their reality, you are actually working towards a lawsuit, cause when the public image changes and people get involved and start to care.... you will not have to look for a lawyer willing to take your case. LAWYERS WILL BE CALLING YOU!!! Perhaps, even the FBI, as well.
Paul St. John
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I think that having to carry around 10 lbs a day to symbolize all the crabs you are carrying around is definitly abuse. That goes without saying. I mean, honsetly, it is sick and twisted, and I almost have to laugh at the fools with that come up with this shit.
And the woman who wrote that post about her son is basically crazy. She's a fucking nut job, and if this poor guy makes it through to adulthood as a sane and good person, he will have accomplished much just in doing that. It really is a shame that there are so many sick fucks in the world. I would love to see that bitch in a program..LMAO!
getting back to the whole crab thing.. It is not so much the weight that is the issue, but just the mere act. It is psychological abuse. Every second that this kid carries that rock around, he is taking physical actions to help them humilate and degrade him, and he has to continue to do it, and when those books get heavy, he has to fight to make a fool of himself. And anyone who says that 10 lbs isn t heavy, I'd like to see you carry it around 24/7. I have actually done it, but I did it as a workout.
But the FBI really doesn t care. It is understandable to hear stories like these and just want to do something to help, but the FBI has other things to worry about, but a post on the internet. How do you even know the post is legit? I think it is and all, but how do you know?
My point of veiw, personally on putting an end to these atrocities, is through spreading the true facts about them, and giving them a bad public image.
Someone said that forcing this guy to carry these books around is not illegal. You bet your ass it is! There is at least 1 law, probably many more, that could be applied, but the problem is that laws are open to intepretation, and right noone is going to find the right laws and apply them.
Also, new laws can be made too. And watch laws will eventually be applied, and perhaps, even new laws applied.
When the socail conscience turns against these places, the laws will applied. It WILL happen.
I have heard the posters here at Fornits referred to as "Outlanders", but eventually, the ideas here in regards to these place will be the norm. "Abolition" had to start somewhere, too.
Since I have been vewing this site and many others, I have heard many times about law suits and such. I am not sure if any of them panned out,
BUT
If you work to spread awareness of these places and their reality, you are actually working towards a lawsuit, cause when the public image changes and people get involved and start to care.... you will not have to look for a lawyer willing to take your case. LAWYERS WILL BE CALLING YOU!!! Perhaps, even the FBI, as well.
Paul St. John
thank you. Of course, FORCING KIDS TO WALK WITH A weighted bag all day, day after day, because they are "bad" to help develop a more submissive state in them is abuse.
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Tell me this: What has CAFETY actually accomplished? What of consequence have they actually done? Have they taken down even a single program?
Spreading the word, getting various organization to take notice. Indeed, systemic change is slow. Shutting down one program doesn't create significant change at the end of the day.
Though, I suspect the testimony around Mission Mountain School had much to do with its shutting down. But that means little at the end of the day...(sadly)
As did work around Mount Bachelor. So, strategically, that's less (though not entirely so) CAFETY's focus as compared to bringing the survivor and human rights perspective to the forefront on mental health discussion and other professionals. Educating organizations to change their policy, work to get laws passed, for community based care, culture change, etc. is real change. Not a band-aid, cause we can work on battling individual programs 'till the cows come home... but, at the end of the say, it just doesn't appear to make a dent. Unless it makes big news, but for that to happen, a number of factors coming together must occur. Namely, public pressure. Thus, public education campaigns appear to be the place to start - increasing visibility and reducing stigma.
Politiking and posturing may be one way of framing the work linked below, networking and connecting with people to share a vision that may hold the possibility for real change may be the other side of that same coin. I guess it depends on how the strategy is perceived. I, obviously, don't agree with that assesement.
I get the politking - eh, not sure harm there- politicizing the issue is critical for change. The personal is political and all that jazz. The posturing... thats unclear to me. Who posturing for what? What posturing, exactly? CAFETY is a group that has been systemically disempowered seeking to empower themselves through supporting one another and educational efforts. You may not be interested in being a part of the effort, but there's really no reason to negate the power many have unearthed from within themselves in connected with others and the work they have done. Let us not forget, CAFETY is a group of individuals, made up of individuals - its members and people who work passionately for social justice. And, for being around for such a short time, with limited resources, the accomplishments and respect earned from the professionalism and well thought out advocacy efforts are praise worthy. Particularly considering that the majority of its members and leadership have survived, against all odds, all the issues that come from trauma (both before program experience, during and after). Its actually quite remarkable. I stand in awe and pride, giving credit where credit is due. No other group has done what CAFETY has done. And, not to say things couldn't be done better or growing pains aren't happening, and not to say that CAFETY is some super power. But other haven't done it, and that IS the point. And CAFETY yield power in the respect earned - nothing wrong with that. CAFETY has built roads and will continue to build roads, where none existed. With the understanding that, if nothing else, all we have is our human connections. Without them, we can't change a damn thing.
Better to light one candle than to scream in the darkness.
http://cafety.org/cafetys-accomplishments (http://cafety.org/cafetys-accomplishments)
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I would like to add....
http://cafety.org/california-chapter (http://cafety.org/california-chapter)
More productive than sitting around complaining about what happened. Informing people is not only productive to the cause but enlightening on ones own experience, cathartic and validating to themselves and parents and other survivors that cross their paths.
xoxo
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Please, theres no reason to argue against TRYING to do something about this situation.
Yes there is. If you come off as an extremist, you damage the entire cause as it reflects on all of "us". If and when there is actually something of import to bring to the feds, the'll just ignore it as "another one of those loons". Either you are incredibly naive, or you're doing this on purpose (troll of type agent provocateur). Frankly, on matters like this, I trust my instincts When something seems fishy, it usually is. If in the rare possibility that I am wrong and you are just naive. Please, for the sake of us all, don't go encouraging others to call the feds up with things like 10 pound bags. Get something solid.
So, CAFETY, or whomever has the contacts to do something, please do so
LOL... You haven't been around long, have you?
Trying to report something to the cops or the FBI doesn't necessarily make one "come off" as an extremeist first of all. Second of all, go ahead and report it....report all of it, and see where it goes. Follow up..after you report it......get local politicians involved with your dilemna....Find out just how far this is going and has gone based on the facts, and report only the facts. Cops/FBI want hard facts and witnesses...remember this...and use all you have.
If this is unsuccessful, PROTEST them....Get like two other people at least to PROTEST with you....remember while protesting to stay on the public causeway, so that you can maintain your legal integrity and so forth. Also, start a webpage of fact gathering against this place. If you are unable to do any of these things, ask for help.
To PSY: one of the main things that discredits the cause is when people bring weapons to protests and don't tell anyone. This is not only VERY UNCOOL, but it is also a legal liability for all involved and can cause trouble for other protesters who are not carrying a weapon. Another thing that discredits the cause is when people have webpages about programs and do not post true to the facts and distort the truth, especially when they call their website blah blah Truth. dot com.
Of course there are many things that can discredit...but reporting chid abuse is not one of them by far!