Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Deborah on November 01, 2007, 11:38:34 AM
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Into the Wild
Tough love tests father-son relationship
Posted Wed Oct. 24, 13:14:01 PDT 2007
By Shoshana Gould and Emily Hamilton of Verde Magazine
Night was falling on the warm June evening. Jordan Jefferson, now a Paly senior, sat in the passenger seat next to his father, stomach full, mind wandering. There was something different about that night. He didn't know what it was, but he knew something was about to happen. As they pulled into the Menlo Park Safeway parking lot, he saw two large, somewhat daunting men, both of whom looked like bouncers or track stars. He felt like he was living a scene from a movie, and the climax was rapidly approaching. There was no time for thought, no time for explanation, as his father handed him over to the custody of the two men. The truth was, he was about to spend the next 53 days 724 miles away from home, in a place called Shoshone, Idaho.
Jordan would spend the 11 hours following the departure trapped in a van with only two strange men and his own thoughts. As he had just learned before getting into the van, he was now on his way to a wilderness therapy program designed to deal with teenage behavioral problems. His thoughts bounced between the various reasons for his departure. His emotions had become a swirling mixture of confusion, disbelief, anger, and fear. "I didn't really know what to expect," Jordan says, recounting the story in a recent interview. "It all happened really fast."
The summer before his sophomore year was supposed to be perfect, three months filled with football, friends, and fun. Instead, it had become, according to Jordan, a teenager's worst nightmare: seven weeks in the middle of nowhere without electronics.
"I was upset at my parents," Jordan says. "They didn't think they could handle me. I felt like they just gave up."
The decision to send Jordan to a wilderness therapy program was not one his father, Michael Jefferson, considered lightly. Sitting across from his son at the dinner table that night, he was faced with one of the most challenging things he would ever have to do as a parent. He couldn't bare to tell his son the truth. He knew Jordan would find out soon enough. After that sad and anticipatory dinner, he made the drive to Safeway in silence, trying not to think about what it would be like to say goodbye. Pulling into the parking lot, he knew that the moment of truth had arrived.
"It was the hardest thing," Michael says. After months of disrespectful behavior and bad decision-making, Jordan, in his father's mind, needed to attend this program. By tracking his behavior, Michael saw that it had become an issue of trust. Michael says he had caught Jordan attempting to steal, playing recklessly with B-B guns, and purposely avoiding his phone calls. :rofl:
"I thought to myself, 'This is like work,'" Michael says.
Michael desperately tried to get through to his son. He sat him down with two lists, one of his recent track record, one with the good qualities he possessed. But these efforts to talk with Jordan failed, leaving Michael with little choice of what the next step would be.
Joseph Popelka, a graduate student at the University of Minnesota who is currently doing innovative work in the field, acknowledges that Michael's feelings were not unique.
"It is important to realize that when parents place their children in a wilderness treatment program it is because the relationship between the parent and the child has become bankrupt," Popelka says. "It is a parent's last-ditch effort to try and reach their children."
Though he hated coming to this point, Michael says this was the only way to reverse Jordan's out-of-character behavior.
"I know it's hard when you're growing up," Michael says. "You're so sure, you're overly sure. You can be detrimental to yourself. He [Jordan] wasn't really learning any lessons. He's a big guy, thinks he can do whatever he wants. And he's angry. What else was I to do? Being a parent doesn't really come with a book." :rofl:
After investigating several programs, Michael decided that The School of Urban and Wilderness Survival in Idaho would be Jordan's home for the summer. The individual attention and character building appealed to Michael, who was looking for a program that was less intense than a boot camp. SUWS is one of the many programs nationwide that treats teenage behavioral problems, including substance abuse, rebelliousness, poor academic achievement, or other psychological trauma. The program's self-proclaimed goal is to not only address the manifestations of the problem but to truly get to its root in order to instill a positive, ever-lasting change. Through four distinct phases, SUWS programs are able to build individual awareness, as well as strengthen group relationships. The first of these phases focuses on the teenager as an individual, and allows for wilderness staff to break down his or her often hard exterior. Right away, the teens are presented with a journal in which they are to record their innermost thoughts.
Popelka sees the implementation of the first phase as crucial to the success of any program.
"The first week of any program is generally spent building the illusion that it is different from traditional treatment," :question: Popelka says. "This is done through one-on-one interaction between staff and participants. The staff of wilderness therapy programs is generally younger and can relate to the participants and build trust. The stress of wilderness will lead to true behaviors emerging and from these true behaviors staff can build teachable moments."
During this time, participants are required to build their own shelter, wash their one allotted outfit, and live independently. After that initial trust is built, participants enter the second phase, in which they work together in small groups and hike about five miles every day.
In the third phase, the participants live in "families", helping to develop teamwork and cooperation. Each of the eight family members has a specific job, such as family leader, navigator, or cook. At SUWS, this phase is the longest, usually lasting about 40 days. It is this experience that enables the teens to develop their relationship building skills. Experts agree that teamwork and inter-personal relations are key components of all wilderness therapy programs.
Julie Hignell, program director for Outward Bound's Intercept, a program similar to SUWS, acknowledges the benefits of group therapy.
"Together the group works on being successful throughout the course," Hignell says. "The course is a wonderful opportunity to take on challenges in a supportive environment."
By "challenges", Hignell refers to the several tasks participants are required to perform, such as trust activities, ropes courses, or fending for themselves in the wild. One of the toughest things for Jordan was the intense 10-mile night hike.
"It definitely gave me a sense of accomplishment," he says. Some of the most meaningful experiences for Jordan were the "truth circles", in which trained counselors facilitated discussions and gave teens a place to talk about their personal issues.
"It made me feel like we were in the same boat", Jordan says. "Once you open up, you feel like you have a weight lifted off your shoulders." In the circles, Jordan listened to stories of drug addiction, abuse, and family problems. Though, according to Jordan, he was "nowhere near there [having substance abuse problems]", sharing with the group helped him to express his deepest feelings.
"I was able to figure out why I felt the way I felt," Jordan says. "In the truth circles you could express things you hadn't been able to before."
The fourth and final phase is 24 hours of complete isolation, and encompasses the self-sufficiency skills acquired throughout the course. It is also a time for the teenager to reflect on the personal changes made throughout their stay and to get ready to return home.
"I am a firm believer in the positive benefit of a solo experience placed on the tail end of the program," Popelka says. "When framed correctly it forces participants to think about their lives at home and the kind of lives they want to live. It also builds self-sufficiency, self-confidence and self-reliance."
More than thrilled to be out of Idaho, Jordan began football practice just a few days after his return. His relationship with his parents, especially the one he shares with his father, changed drastically upon his arrival back to Palo Alto.
"It definitely put a gap in our relationship," Jordan says. "I'll always have at least a hint of resentment. It wasn't a just decision to send me away. It created a lot of anger and distrust towards my parents. They didn't treat me as an adult. They should have let me know what was going on."
Since that return home over two years ago, Jordan has had plenty of time to analyze the program's impact. Although he feels that SUWS was not a necessary experience for him, he believes that the program has changed him as an individual.
"The experience gave me a broader perspective on life and how to handle your problems, like what to do if you're in trouble," Jordan says. "Just so you don't have displaced anger."
Popelka says that it is the dramatic change of atmosphere that creates space for such extreme personal growth.
"Wilderness therapy provides a fast track to building trust :question: by placing participants in an environment that forces them to step outside of their comfort zone," Popelka says. "Once this trust is built, it can be capitalized to foster positive change and solid introspection."
Jordan's main regret from his experience in wilderness therapy camp is not keeping in contact with the other teenagers, many of whom helped him to be able to open up and express his feelings in a more positive way.
"It'd be weird to just share my feelings with my friends here," Jordan says of the difference between his relationship with his school friends and the friends that he made during summer of 2005. "They just don't know what it was like to be there."
According to his father, Jordan's life has improved drastically. From his grades to his relationships to his success in sports, the lessons he learned that summer are long-lasting.
"It did tons of good," Michael says. "We found out his true ability, and so did he. It gave him a chance to realize what he has, the gifts that he has inside himself. You can't put a price on his future."
It was with Jordan's future in mind that Michael canceled his son's enrollment in football camp and handed him over to the two escorts, two years ago. Exactly what happened during those 53 days remains unbeknownst to Michael; the personal journey Jordan experienced is one that, ultimately, cannot be explained. He did get a chance, however, to meet with Jordan's counselors, and was impressed by how well they got to know his son.
"They really hold you accountable," Michael says. "There's no room for argument. They say, 'This is fact, this is how he feels. Now what can you do about it?' They got to know him almost as well as I do in only two months. I guess when you're in a place like that, with no video games or distractions ... Jordan was forced to interact with people. They got down deep."
According to Popelka, improving parent-child communication is a vital measure.
"Many programs work with the parents on communication techniques simultaneously and bring the parents and children together at the end," Popelka says. "This, in my view, is incredibly important."
Reflecting on the experience, Michael knows he made the right decision. However, Jordan and Michael still do not see eye-to-eye. While Jordan acknowledges the benefits of the program, he wishes it did not have to be done in such a drastic way. "I wish they could have really tried talking to me," Jordan says. "I wish they could have sat me down and told me that they cared about me."
Michael, on the other hand, would recommend the program in a heartbeat. Even though it was expensive, he says it was completely worth it.
"You just have to attack the problem," ::bangin:: Michael says about Jordan's prior behavior. "It's going to take him having a child for him to understand my decisions."
Unfortunately, this discrepancy between parent and child is not uncommon. While SUWS admits teenagers against their own will, other therapy programs like Outward Bound's Intercept ensure teens want to come before they arrive.
"We require that the student agree to come," Hignell says. "We interview them to learn more about what is important to them and to help us decide if we think we are the right program for the individual, and we work with the family to develop a set of incentives for following through on the commitment the student makes. 70 percent of them [our students] say they are eager to come or think it's a good idea when the application process is finished."
Intercept, however, is a very rare case. Other programs, including SUWS, leave this life-changing decision at the discretion of the parents, creating a huge debate about the morality of the programs: where is the line between sending your child away in an effort to save their life, or sending them away so you don't have to deal with them anymore?
Dr. Steve DeBois, Clinical Director for Second Nature Wilderness Program, another course similar to SUWS, believes that parents' intentions are usually genuine.
"It's understandable that they [students] are often angry and resentful when they first arrive," DeBois says. "But it's important to understand that in almost all cases, wilderness therapy is the last resort for parents who have tried everything from outpatient therapy to grounding to threats. If your child is engaging in self-destructive behavior to the point that their future and even their health is in danger, parents feel obligated to do whatever they can to keep their kids safe."
Meanwhile, Jordan and Michael's relationship has improved greatly since that June evening two years ago, though Jordan admits he still hasn't forgiven his father, and doubts he ever will.
"He's a Scorpio," Michael says jokingly. "I don't think they forgive easily." ::roflmao::
Still, both father and son agree that life experience is valuable in any teenager's journey to adulthood.
"I've learned more from trial and error," Jordan says. "It's just part of growing up. I don't really need someone over me, moving me along."
Occasionally, participants emerge from the programs with a similar resentful attitude. However, this puts the students' ability to retain the learned skills at risk. The ultimate effectiveness of the programs is still questionable, even today.
"The question of retention is one of the central questions that need to be scientifically determined," Popelka says. "My hypothesis is that some of the skills are lost as time passes, but ideally by the time the afterglow effect :rofl: diminishes the participant has developed positive coping mechanisms that work for them."
At the start of his last year of high school, Jordan's future looks bright, with possible football scholarships to acclaimed colleges in the works. Michael has been spending countless hours thinking about these decisions with his son, hoping to strengthen their relationship.
"For now, he's finding himself," Michael says. "He has to live and learn and learn from his mistakes."
While the experience as a whole put a strain on their relationship, day by day it is beginning to heal. According to Jordan, it taught him "to value the people you have around you," including his father. In the end, it is the relationships in life that really matter.
"Wilderness is merely a vehicle to facilitate change," Popelka says. "For the most part, something is gained through the experience, though it may be simply that seeds for future change have been planted." v
This story originally appeared in Verde Magazine on October 24, 2007.
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This is the problem with these interviews- the kid either isn't nasty enough, or the paper refuses to print his true hatred.
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She had been at SUWS
She has to hide that she still suffers from depression caused by her fathers dead. She has to hide the fact that she likes girls.
What she learned from SUWS is that she has to hide those two things until she are 18 or she will be sent to Utah for further treatment.
What a load of pain to carry for all too many months. This father has a huge risk of seeing the last of his son once he can stand on his own feet.
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What a load of pain to carry for all too many months. This father has a huge risk of seeing the last of sunlight once his son can stand on his own feet.
FIXED!
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People who withstand and overcome traumatic experiences often say it changes them or made them better/tougher.
Although he feels that SUWS was not a necessary experience for him, he believes that the program has changed him as an individual.
More ex post facto justification of a program? :roll:
Can anyone say a program actually does something its supposed to do and that its a good thing?
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Can anyone say a program actually does something its supposed to do and that its a good thing?
Sure can: A program actually does something its supposed to do and that its a good thing.
How was that?
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maybe the boy in the story actually learned good lessons from his experience
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"Don't trust your parents under any circumstances"?
"The wilderness is a place for sadists, pave it all"?
"People can do whatever they want to you if you're under 18"?
Wow! Awesome lessons to be learning! Maybe they should teach those in the public schools.
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the boy didn't know how to discharge his feelings, at all. it sounds like the truth circles at the program enabled him to open up and get at the deeper issues. there ARE deeper issues. not every wilderness therapy story is a bad one. yes, their relationship was affected, but clearly good came from it as well.
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the boy didn't know how to discharge his feelings, at all. it sounds like the truth circles at the program enabled him to open up and get at the deeper issues. there ARE deeper issues. not every wilderness therapy story is a bad one. yes, their relationship was affected, but clearly good came from it as well.
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the boy didn't know how to discharge his feelings. at all. it sounds like the truth circles at the program enabled him to open up and get at the deeper issues. there ARE deeper issues. not every wilderness therapy story is a bad one. yes, their relationship was affected, but clearly good came from it as well.
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"Don't trust your parents under any circumstances"?
"The wilderness is a place for sadists, pave it all"?
"People can do whatever they want to you if you're under 18"?
Wow! Awesome lessons to be learning! Maybe they should teach those in the public schools.
Agreed. Want me to start writing up the guide for that one also?
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the boy didn't know how to discharge his feelings. at all. it sounds like the truth circles at the program enabled him to open up and get at the deeper issues. there ARE deeper issues. not every wilderness therapy story is a bad one. yes, their relationship was affected, but clearly good came from it as well.
Let's hope this kid learned how to use a knife well enough from his captors to go home and carve the words, "FUCK YOU DAD" on his daddy's forehead. MIND you to all you damn folks who keep sending me nasty messages about violence and such I am merely suggesting mutilation.. NOT death..
sheeeh..
and it would be a good way for the kid to express his true feelings about being dumped in the middle of Idaho for 53 days.
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the boy didn't know how to discharge his feelings. at all. it sounds like the truth circles at the program enabled him to open up and get at the deeper issues. there ARE deeper issues. not every wilderness therapy story is a bad one. yes, their relationship was affected, but clearly good came from it as well.
I'm going to discharge my feelings in the form of a gun aimed at your head.
Critically, who the hell are you to abduct anyone, and hold them captive to get them to "discharge" their feelings? How bout I abduct you? Where do you live? Honestly, I'd like to know. I am going to come and kidnap you, and take you into the wilderness.
I'm also going to rape you, no, don't thank me. I just want you to learn some lessons. Then, I'm going to cut off your left foot. Again, what has this been shown to help? NOTHING. Wilderness abduction has never been medically proved to do anything but hurt, as cutting off your left foot has never been proved to do anything but harm. So What. Maybe, you’ll get at the deeper issues
Any trauma always makes you get at the deeper issues as you’ve been freshly supplied with deeper issues by the trauma.
You’ll definitely learn how to handle your anger. Well, you’ll need to. You don’t have a foot. That's horrible, right?
Anyway, so please post your address so we can begin the magnificent journey of abduction/rape/mutilation therapy.
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Now how deeply are you gonna "probe" Phoebe's issues?
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i know the person in the story personally and you have no idea what you are talking about. sure there are stories of violence and death, but his isn't one of them. get over yourself.
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No, you get the fuck over yourself. I'm not the one hubristic enough to abduct and imprison a normal human being so they can learn to “discharger their feelingsâ€
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the boy didn't know how to discharge his feelings. at all. it sounds like the truth circles at the program enabled him to open up and get at the deeper issues. there ARE deeper issues. not every wilderness therapy story is a bad one. yes, their relationship was affected, but clearly good came from it as well.
I'm going to discharge my feelings in the form of a gun aimed at your head.
Critically, who the hell are you to abduct anyone, and hold them captive to get them to "discharge" their feelings? How bout I abduct you? Where do you live? Honestly, I'd like to know. I am going to come and kidnap you, and take you into the wilderness.
I'm also going to rape you, no, don't thank me. I just want you to learn some lessons. Then, I'm going to cut off your left foot. Again, what has this been shown to help? NOTHING. Wilderness abduction has never been medically proved to do anything but hurt, as cutting off your left foot has never been proved to do anything but harm. So What. Maybe, you’ll get at the deeper issues
Any trauma always makes you get at the deeper issues as you’ve been freshly supplied with deeper issues by the trauma.
You’ll definitely learn how to handle your anger. Well, you’ll need to. You don’t have a foot. That's horrible, right?
Anyway, so please post your address so we can begin the magnificent journey of abduction/rape/mutilation therapy.
It seems clear that you did not have a good experience, but that doesnt mean many other children do not.
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the boy didn't know how to discharge his feelings. at all. it sounds like the truth circles at the program enabled him to open up and get at the deeper issues. there ARE deeper issues. not every wilderness therapy story is a bad one. yes, their relationship was affected, but clearly good came from it as well.
I'm going to discharge my feelings in the form of a gun aimed at your head.
Critically, who the hell are you to abduct anyone, and hold them captive to get them to "discharge" their feelings? How bout I abduct you? Where do you live? Honestly, I'd like to know. I am going to come and kidnap you, and take you into the wilderness.
I'm also going to rape you, no, don't thank me. I just want you to learn some lessons. Then, I'm going to cut off your left foot. Again, what has this been shown to help? NOTHING. Wilderness abduction has never been medically proved to do anything but hurt, as cutting off your left foot has never been proved to do anything but harm. So What. Maybe, you’ll get at the deeper issues
Any trauma always makes you get at the deeper issues as you’ve been freshly supplied with deeper issues by the trauma.
You’ll definitely learn how to handle your anger. Well, you’ll need to. You don’t have a foot. That's horrible, right?
Anyway, so please post your address so we can begin the magnificent journey of abduction/rape/mutilation therapy.
It seems clear that you did not have a good experience, but that doesnt mean many other children do not.
I am going to continue raping and foot chopping as "treatment".
The thousands of lobotomy/rape victims who say having such “treatmentâ€
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the boy didn't know how to discharge his feelings. at all. it sounds like the truth circles at the program enabled him to open up and get at the deeper issues. there ARE deeper issues. not every wilderness therapy story is a bad one. yes, their relationship was affected, but clearly good came from it as well.
I'm going to discharge my feelings in the form of a gun aimed at your head.
Critically, who the hell are you to abduct anyone, and hold them captive to get them to "discharge" their feelings? How bout I abduct you? Where do you live? Honestly, I'd like to know. I am going to come and kidnap you, and take you into the wilderness.
I'm also going to rape you, no, don't thank me. I just want you to learn some lessons. Then, I'm going to cut off your left foot. Again, what has this been shown to help? NOTHING. Wilderness abduction has never been medically proved to do anything but hurt, as cutting off your left foot has never been proved to do anything but harm. So What. Maybe, you’ll get at the deeper issues
Any trauma always makes you get at the deeper issues as you’ve been freshly supplied with deeper issues by the trauma.
You’ll definitely learn how to handle your anger. Well, you’ll need to. You don’t have a foot. That's horrible, right?
Anyway, so please post your address so we can begin the magnificent journey of abduction/rape/mutilation therapy.
It seems clear that you did not have a good experience, but that doesnt mean many other children do not.
THANK YOU!
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"The fourth and final phase is 24 hours of complete isolation, and encompasses the self-sufficiency skills acquired throughout the course. It is also a time for the teenager to reflect on the personal changes made throughout their stay and to get ready to return home."
That is the final cruelty -- telling the kid for 53 days to work the program, express his feelings and all that -- only to find out later that he's not really going home. Hardly anyone goes home -- the vast majority go straight from wilderness to a teen prison that is euphemistically referred to as a "boarding school" or "treatment center."
As bad an experience as wilderness can be, the TBS or RTC can be so much worse that some kids actually try to get themselves sent back to wilderness.
The good news is eventually mom & dad will be completely broke, and as soon as the checks stop coming, the kid is immediately declared "cured" and released. He or she may no longer have a home to go back to (mortgage foreclosure and all that), but at least he/she is no longer imprisoned without a trial or determination of guilt.
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"The fourth and final phase is 24 hours of complete isolation, and encompasses the self-sufficiency skills acquired throughout the course. It is also a time for the teenager to reflect on the personal changes made throughout their stay and to get ready to return home."
That is the final cruelty -- telling the kid for 53 days to work the program, express his feelings and all that -- only to find out later that he's not really going home. Hardly anyone goes home -- the vast majority go straight from wilderness to a teen prison that is euphemistically referred to as a "boarding school" or "treatment center."
As bad an experience as wilderness can be, the TBS or RTC can be so much worse that some kids actually try to get themselves sent back to wilderness.
The good news is eventually mom & dad will be completely broke, and as soon as the checks stop coming, the kid is immediately declared "cured" and released. He or she may no longer have a home to go back to (mortgage foreclosure and all that), but at least he/she is no longer imprisoned without a trial or determination of guilt.
Most of the kids go home afterwards. The kids that do not either already know that they are moving on to a boarding school setting from wilderness or their time in wilderness showed that the child would benefit from going on to a next step prior to returning home.
I find it interesting how so many here view isolation as being so negative and some even view it as abusive.
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Isolation that is not self-imposed is abusive. One of the defintions of cruel and unusual punishment is isolation. Unless, you are Pinochet or Bush.
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Isolation that is not self-imposed is abusive. One of the defintions of cruel and unusual punishment is isolation. Unless, you are Pinochet or Bush.
Ha,Ha,Ha sitting in the woods for a time and reflecting on yourself is not considered cruel and unusual punishment. Being forced into a 6’X6’ cell without food or water is!!! Isolation takes on many forms and can be very beneficial to the individual.
Sure being forced to breath fresh air when you want city smog could be considered abusive if that’s what the kids wants (by your definition), but the child needs to be guided and told what is good for them until they become adults and head out on their own.
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Ha,Ha,Ha sitting in the woods for a time and reflecting on yourself is not considered cruel and unusual punishment. Being forced into a 6’X6’ cell without food or water is!!! Isolation takes on many forms and can be very beneficial to the individual.
So, a cell like this is abusive?
(http://http://www.paulareeves.com/images/HOBBIT%20SPRING%20CREEK%20LODGE%20PUNISHMENT%20CELL.jpg)
courtesy of spring creek lodge, montana
Thanks Who, for proving my point!
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maybe being forced to lay face down in a cage, too?
(http://http://www.paulareeves.com/images/HIGH%20IMPACT%20CHILD%20IN%20CAGE%20WWASP.jpg)
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TheWho wrote: "Most of the kids go home afterwards"
More bullshit statements from fornits' favorite troll.
Why don't you ask kids who have been there? Better yet, ask wilderness program staffers. From them, the number I hear for the percentage of kids who go on to residential aftercare is somewhere north of 80%.
For the few kids who get to go home, the reasons are usually financial -- not the result of program counselors' recommendations. It seems to be very rare that a program counselor would recommend a kid go home rather than to another program. But sometimes the parents simply don't have the money.
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Ha,Ha,Ha sitting in the woods for a time and reflecting on yourself is not considered cruel and unusual punishment. Being forced into a 6’X6’ cell without food or water is!!! Isolation takes on many forms and can be very beneficial to the individual.
So, a cell like this is abusive?
(http://http://www.paulareeves.com/images/HOBBIT%20SPRING%20CREEK%20LODGE%20PUNISHMENT%20CELL.jpg)
courtesy of spring creek lodge, montana
Thanks Who, for proving my point!
Oh boy, a history lesson and this is suppose to represent all schools ?
Here is a typical family who would love to have an opportunity to live there:
(http://http://www.ourwardfamily.com/1800s/Children_in_the_1800s.jpg)
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TheWho wrote: "Most of the kids go home afterwards"
More bullshit statements from fornits' favorite troll.
What else is new?
His own admission of "being locked in a 6'x6' cell with no food or water, basically describes most isolation *units* in programs. So, he can spin this whatever way he can.
But the facts don't lie.
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Simple: "Dont send your kids to places that do that". One of the problems here is each person relates their worst experience and then assumes all the schools do this. I know for a fact that you are wrong.
I can show you pictures of car accidents or cars that dont have a very good safety rating... so we have the choice not to buy them, simple concept.
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two words - deceptive adverstising.
End of story.
we aren't buy cars - we abusing kids.
It just shows where you're mind is at, who - kids aren't luxury objects for their parents pleasure.
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Like anything else…â€
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Like anything else…â€
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bingo.. kids without due process is weak sauce.
Everyone under 18 basically are the slaves of the new mellenium. Time to get the emancipation of proclamation going for the little uns.
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Like anything else…â€
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If food can be regulated and where to build houses regulated and even cars (I think you brought this up in an an example) - how come entrusting your loved ones to a so-called "program" is not regulated as well?
I mean, someone in the governmentt says - cars need seatbelts to make them safer, so lets make that a law. Done.
Answer this, why aren't programs regulated to keep kids safe?
They are unregulated and unmonitored. Seems like a lot stuff is going on with no real transparancy and many kids and families are getting shafted.
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Simple: "Dont send your kids to places that do that". One of the problems here is each person relates their worst experience and then assumes all the schools do this. I know for a fact that you are wrong.
I can show you pictures of car accidents or cars that dont have a very good safety rating... so we have the choice not to buy them, simple concept.
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Yeah.... We have a choice not to buy them, but just like car salesmen there are shady characters in the business that puts on a high pressured sales pitch and would say almost anything to get their name on the dotted line because that means another dollar in their pocket.
there's nothing worse than a used car salesman, or a program pitcher....They both ride in the same boat.
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Plus, people who care for your kids have to be licensed, like teachers (your other example) etc etc.
No one who works in a facility needs to be licensed in order to work there - they took *kids* right out of HS or college who worked in one of the programs I was in. & they knew very little.
Your parallels are getting desperate and lacking and common sense or logic.
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Simple: "Dont send your kids to places that do that". One of the problems here is each person relates their worst experience and then assumes all the schools do this. I know for a fact that you are wrong.
I can show you pictures of car accidents or cars that dont have a very good safety rating... so we have the choice not to buy them, simple concept.
...
Yeah.... We have a choice not to buy them, but just like car salesmen there are shady characters in the business that puts on a high pressured sales pitch and would say almost anything to get their name on the dotted line because that means another dollar in their pocket.
there's nothing worse than a used car salesman, or a program pitcher....They both ride in the same boat.
There are people out there who will kill you for your watch, it can get much worse. Salesman cant sell you a car if you don’t need one, but he can steer you towards a lemon…that’s what I mean by buyer beware. If your child didn’t need help you wouldn’t be sitting in the chair across from them.
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Plus, people who care for your kids have to be licensed, like teachers (your other example) etc etc.
No one who works in a facility needs to be licensed in order to work there - they took *kids* right out of HS or college who worked in one of the programs I was in. & they knew very little.
Your parallels are getting desperate and lacking and common sense or logic.
No they dont.... There is no law that says teachers need to get a license....... most professionals dont bother to get licensed unless they are going to work for the state or working independently.
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Education is free.
From Mike Males "Youth Facts"
These and other stories @ http://youthfacts.org/index.html (http://youthfacts.org/index.html)
Welcome to YouthFacts
YouthFacts seeks to debunk the barrage of modern mistruths about youth, restore a climate of fairness and integrity when discussing youth issues, advance verifiable and evidence-based information to better inform youth policy, enhance the integration of youth into democratic and multi-cultural citizenship, and build a culture that values and trusts its young people.
We have grown increasingly alarmed at the inability or refusal of aging America to respond rationally to clear, dramatic generational changes in crime, violence, drug abuse, mortality, AIDS, imprisonment, and social and political attitudes over the last 30 to 40 years. The future of our diverse society demands more factual, alternative information and discussion than today's stifling consensus.
Myths About Today's Youth
This section (under construction) details myths about teens today.
Oxycontin. Ignore the avalanche of media reports, drug-war officials, and interest group scares that Oxycontin and other prescription drug abuse is a teenage epidemic. A top Centers for Disease Control epidemiologist told Congress middle-aged white men are dying the most from abuse and misuse of drugs--especially pharmaceuticals. And drug overdoses are exploding.
2006 youth crime. Yes, it's feeding time again! The FBI's just-released 2006 crime figures are already being pounced on by police, reporters, and their always-wrong "experts" like James Alan Fox to grab bucks and ratings. Here's a guide to the anti-youth distortions you'll be seeing and the truth about the latest changes in youth crime--good and bad. Also, the girl-crime apocalypse continues to be a myth, as girls' crime, especially murder, falls sharply.
Blaming youth. Officials from acting US Surgeon General Kenneth Moritsugu and the drug czar to the Partnership for a Drug-Free America are rushing to blame young people for America's drug and alcohol crises. Addicted parents? Abusive families? Troubled adults? Officially, these problems don't exist. See also the open letter to the Partnership challenging this cowardly crusade.
The most crazed drug rant ever. Drug czar John Walters tirade against teenagers at a September 6 press conference sets a new low, even for his cruel, lunatic drug war policy that has brought danger and heartache to America's young people--and the older generations, whose rampant drug abuse he STILL (even after a record 31,000 deaths, 800,000 hospital cases, and 600,000 imprisonments) refuses to admit even exists. Unfortunately, the Marijuana Policy Project's Bruce Mirken shows the same unreasoned panic about teens and and denial of real drug crises that make today's drug-reform lobbies as irrelevant as Walters.
Frightening news about teens: Girls and boys are happy--happier than ever before--our best surveys show. What terrible news! Look for culture warriors, popular authors, psychiatric and pharmaceutical industries, agencies, and news-media panic mongers to step up efforts to convince teenagers that, despite their optimism, they're really miserable and depressed.
Enough Lindsay! Bad enough that the American news media relentlessly exploit celebrity gossip. But it's excruciating when reporters, commentators, and self-serving treatment "experts" cast troubled young stars as symbols of all "young people today." If the Associated Press's and other miserably crass reporters want a poster child for a generation packed with drug and alcohol addiction woes, try Lindsay's dad from hell.
Enough MySpace! Atlantic Magazine's latest megafeature is just the latest overwrought junk-media panic that your teen faces epochal dangers online. Leave those kids alone. Teens are in far more danger of murder and rape in church than unsupervised on the Net.
Quick quiz: what age group shows the biggest rise in violence, serious crime, and drug offenses? It's not youth or young adults... the massive crime epidemic the news media, the cops, interest groups, and "experts" endlessly scapegoating youth refuse to face.
Obama demagogues the "entire generation of young men" Senator Barack Obama exploits fears of the least violent generation of young African Americans on record--while excusing his own more violent and crime-prone older generation.
The "teenage brain" The handful of "experts" who claim "science" has "discovered teenagers act as they do" are stretching neurological studies far beyond their bounds, indulging primitive strereotypes about adolescents, and generally demonstrating their own lack of cognitive development.
"Teenage sex" As interest groups and politicians fall over themselves to grab credit for the dramatic decline in what we call "teenage births," read about the giant irony no one wants to discuss--one that exposes just how ludicrous today's "debate" over "teenage sex" has become.
Beating up on girls The distorted, poisonous attack on today's girls and young women as meaner and more violent, depressed, materialistic, shallow, etc., by authors, the news media, and interest groups across the spectrum reveals the cruelty of commentators apparently threatened by the spectacular advances in health, safety, and better attitudes among Millennial females.
Shootings Are schools "full of angry kids" waiting to commit mass shootings? In fact, in a nation that leads all other Western nations in gun murders by far, our high school and college campuses are safer than Denmark....
Crime But aren't youth committing more serious crimes today? NO. They're committing FEWER than previous generations. In 1965, the FBI estimated youths under age 18 accounted for 30% of all serious violent and property crime in the country. In 2005, that figure was 17%, the lowest level ever recorded....
Do teenage mothers save taxpayers money? A university economics team's long-term analysis that all sides agree is the best ever done reaches an astonishing conclusion: having babies during teen years is an economically rational decision by poorer young women that leads to higher incomes and lower public costs over time. Why haven't you heard about this research? Because all sides depend on vilifying teen moms as costly fools.
Mental Health Crisis The mental health crisis that isn't! Statistics don't support fears of a psychological emergency on our college campuses.
Teenage Drinking Yes, heavy drinking IS a problem...all across American society. We hear incessantly about the 5.5 million teenage and the 8.9 million young-adult binge drinkers ages 20-24. But why does no one mention that the same National Household Survey finds 11.5 million binge drinkers ages 30-39, 11.3 million ages 40-49, 6.2 million ages 50-59, and 4.5 million ages 60 and older?....
Drugs After spending hundreds of billions of dollars and imprisoning millions over the last 25 years, the United States now suffers the worst drug abuse crisis in history. A record 31,000 Americans died directly from abusing illegal drugs in 2004. But it's not teens--40-59 year-olds comprise BY FAR our worst drug abusing population, especially for heroin, cocaine, methamphetamine, and drugs mixed with alcohol. Teens are being scapegoated for the burgeoning middle-aged drug crisis...
Suicide Teenagers are the least likely of any age group to take their own lives, and their rates of self-destruction (suicides and other deaths indicating suicidal intent, such as accidents by guns, poisoning, hanging, and undetermined intent) have plummeted in recent decades. A high schooler is three times more likely to suffer a parent's suicide than the other way around. Why, then, are teens stereotyped as suicidal risk takers?....
Teen Drivers You've seen the mass hype about "teen killers on the road" as if Americans were in dire peril of being wiped out every time we venture off the curb. So: how many miles does the average teenage driver have to drive before suffering even odds of being in a fatal accident? The answer, and the truth about the unconscionable scare campaign vilifying teen drivers, add up to an "expert" disgrade.
November 14, 2007
Latest Media Mistruths about youth
If America's news media covered other groups with the same sensational, factless bigotry inflicted on youth, we'd call it hate speech.
CRIME
CNN's Anderson Cooper's keeping-it-dishonest escapism on Chicago youth killings
TEEN DRINKING
Younger Girls Binge Drinking? No, more girl-fearing junk from CBS et al
SHOOTINGS
Are schools and campuses full of more troubled, violent, suicidal youth? NO!
SEX OFFENDERS
Associated Press uses blatantly biased statistics to fabricate an increase in juvenile sexual violence.
DRUG DENIAL
CBS News, a drug-war funded "university" junk researcher, cops, and "experts" show why the US has the world's worst drug abuse problem.
EXPLOITING TRAGEDY
A one-year increase in teen suicide brings out the hypers, exploiters and drug peddlers who failed to note (again) that far more teens need help with suicidal parents.
Why are books on teens today so atrocious?
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Plus, people who care for your kids have to be licensed, like teachers (your other example) etc etc.
No one who works in a facility needs to be licensed in order to work there - they took *kids* right out of HS or college who worked in one of the programs I was in. & they knew very little.
Your parallels are getting desperate and lacking and common sense or logic.
No they dont.... There is no law that says teachers need to get a license....... most professionals dont bother to get licensed unless they are going to work for the state or working independently.
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Who... Are you telling us that people should entrust their children to the care of (**Definition: carefulness, attention to detail**) to people who have not gone through the rigiorous measures and training that licensed professionals have??
So basically you are saying that you would entrust (**Definition: To give over (something) to another for care, protection, or performance**) an unlicensed person to look after your child. That would almost be like entrusting an unlicensed carpenter to build a home.
I must say Who.... Why do you feel the need to come on to this forum and sprew pro-program propaganda??? Are you paid to come on in attempts of doing damage control for an industry that damages kids??
I swear I don't know how you can sleep at night knowing that you have a hand in on it. I know I couldn't.
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Plus, people who care for your kids have to be licensed, like teachers (your other example) etc etc.
No one who works in a facility needs to be licensed in order to work there - they took *kids* right out of HS or college who worked in one of the programs I was in. & they knew very little.
Your parallels are getting desperate and lacking and common sense or logic.
No they dont.... There is no law that says teachers need to get a license....... most professionals dont bother to get licensed unless they are going to work for the state or working independently.
...
Who... Are you telling us that people should entrust their children to the care of (**Definition: carefulness, attention to detail**) to people who have not gone through the rigiorous measures and training that licensed professionals have??
So basically you are saying that you would entrust (**Definition: To give over (something) to another for care, protection, or performance**) an unlicensed person to look after your child. That would almost be like entrusting an unlicensed carpenter to build a home.
I must say Who.... Why do you feel the need to come on to this forum and sprew pro-program propaganda??? Are you paid to come on in attempts of doing damage control for an industry that damages kids??
I swear I don't know how you can sleep at night knowing that you have a hand in on it. I know I couldn't.
If you hire a licensed contractor to build your home he may visit the site once a day, but the people building your home are not licensed. How many engineers in the entire Microsoft corporation are licensed (very few). Daycare workers are not licensed (except the owner).
How many teachers in the private sector have licenses (very few), colleges and universities. The state and federal government requires people to take a test and get a license for most professions including teaching, but the private sector does not.
So to conclude, the majority of all professionals are not licensed and don’t need to be. Since when should people feel that being licensed means being safe….. if you look at all the teachers that abused kids over the past decade 99.9 % of them were licensed professionals, is that suppose to make us feel warm and fuzzy about the licensing process?
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If you hire a licensed contractor to build your home he may visit the site once a day, but the people building your home are not licensed. How many engineers in the entire Microsoft corporation are licensed (very few). Daycare workers are not licensed (except the owner).
How many teachers in the private sector have licenses (very few), colleges and universities. The state and federal government requires people to take a test and get a license for most professions including teaching, but the private sector does not.
So to conclude, the majority of all professionals are not licensed and don’t need to be. Since when should people feel that being licensed means being safe….. if you look at all the teachers that abused kids over the past decade 99.9 % of them were licensed professionals, is that suppose to make us feel warm and fuzzy about the licensing process?
The majority of children go to public schools, not private schools. Even private schools do not hire HS grads off the streets.
The rhetoric TheWho is spreading is pure nonsense. I give him as credibility as Ann Coulter, and would not spend much time trying to refute his pendantic and misinformed ideas. TheWho is like a one-legged man in an ass-kicking contest. So why bother?
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From the US Dept of Labor -
All 50 States and the District of Columbia require public school teachers to be licensed. Licensure is not required for teachers in private schools in most States. Usually licensure is granted by the State Board of Education or a licensure advisory committee. Teachers may be licensed to teach the early childhood grades (usually preschool through grade 3); the elementary grades (grades 1 through 6 or 8); the middle grades (grades 5 through 8); a secondary-education subject area (usually grades 7 through 12); or a special subject, such as reading or music (usually grades kindergarten through 12).
http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos069.htm (http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos069.htm)
The majority work in local government educational services. About 10 percent work for private schools. Preschool teachers, except special education, are most often employed in child daycare services (61 percent), religious organizations (12 percent), local government educational services (9 percent), and private educational services (7 percent).
In conclusion, the vast majority of professionals ARE LICENSED.
TheWho's statements has been shown by the US dept of labor's own statistics, to be misinformed and entirely & completely wrong.
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From the US Dept of Labor -
All 50 States and the District of Columbia require public school teachers to be licensed. http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos069.htm[/url]
The majority work in local government educational services. About 10 percent work for private schools. Preschool teachers, except special education, are most often employed in child daycare services (61 percent), religious organizations (12 percent), local government educational services (9 percent), and private educational services (7 percent).
In conclusion, the vast majority of professionals ARE LICENSED.
TheWho's statements has been shown by the US dept of labor's own statistics, to be misinformed and entirely & completely wrong.
Its a state requirement that only applies to public schools. It doesnt insure that teachers are better or less abusive. Its a test the state requires. The majority of teachers work in the public school system. But the majority of professionals donot. Very few engineers, for example, get a "Professional Engineers license" Why would they, unless they wanted to work for the state. Most engineers work for private companies.
Pick any large company. Microsoft and see if they require an engineer to be licensed in their on-line want ads.
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Micorsoft engineers do not work with children.
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seriously, what is wrong with TheWho?
:rofl:
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You guys are going back and forth but you are missing the point. What does a license buy you? The majority of the upper class (and middle- upper class people) were educated by teachers who were not licensed. If these people felt that a license meant anything they would have the private schools make their teachers take the dam test, but they don’t because it is beurocratic garbage. We hear on the news everyday about a teacher abusing or having sex with a student and each and every case the teacher was licensed. Everyone knows it is just state regulation paper work and doesn’t insure anything. Private schools send letters home to the parents telling them of their new hired science teacher…. They talk about his/her vast experience in the field, educational back ground and private industry experience along with some notes on their private lives and information which reflects their moral standing in the community and the special talents they are bringing to the school and so on…. State testing or licensing isn’t even a small consideration.
The government isn’t going to protect our children for us… it is up to the parents to do that. Its up to the parents to choose good schools with good programs and the people that work there…. if a particular wing of the government requires people to be tested or licensed fine, but don’t let that put your guard down and feel it means your kids are anymore safe, because they are not.
The testing is a safety net to insure teachers meet some minimum standard or have the bare minimum to be where they are. You are foolish to place a child in someones care because a person is licensed or took a test.
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seriously, what is wrong with TheWho?
:rofl:
It may not be TheWho. Someone other than TheWho or CCMgirl has been recently found posting in support of some of their viewpoints.
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The majority of children go to public schools, not private schools. Even private schools do not hire HS grads off the streets.
Some of those "private schools" are TBSs included on our forum. Those TBSs often hire graduates of their program who have not even completed college yet. Witness Hyde School as one that I am more familiar with. Elan also hires recent graduates of their program, although I am not sure whether they call themselves a TBS. Those teachers may be designated as "teachers" or "instructors" or "coaches" or what have you. But the bottom line is they are teaching your kids and you are paying for it.
License or certification is not required for the private sector. In fact you can make up a whole lot of rules and guidelines that do not bear any resemblance to what the required curriculum is in whatever state you are in. Take a look at this interchange between a parent and a California bureaucrat; the parent wanted to home school his kids. This was back in the mid-70s. A lot of things have changed with regard to homeschooling requirements, but this conversation illustrates the dynamic between the public and the private sector all too well. Incidentally, this parent went on to start his own school.
Bonnie was working part-time as a registrar at a local school, but since she had several hours free during the day and I had time at night, we thought maybe we could share in teaching our children at home. It seemed like a great idea, but--being young and naive--we thought we'd better check with the California Department of Education. I figured that with my Master's degree in education, it wouldn't be a problem. I can still remember the conversation as clearly as if it was yesterday. I was home for lunch when I made the call. Home schooling was virtually unknown at that time, so I was referred to the supervisor for private schools.
When I told him our plan, he asked just one question, "Do you have a California Teaching Credential?"
"No," I replied, "but I have a Master's Degree in education."
"Nope, that's not good enough," he said.
I just couldn't accept this. There had to be a way. Not knowing what else to say, I asked, "Isn't there any way I can teach my own children?"
"Well," he replied, "you could start a private school."
Start our own school? Unbelievable. I had to run that one by him again just to make sure I'd heard it right. "You mean I'm not qualified to teach my own children, but I'm qualified to teach a whole school full of children?"
"Yep, that's right."
"And my children could be part of that school if I wanted them to be, right?"
"Sure, if you wanted them to."
"Thanks for your help, sir!"
http://www.oakmeadow.com/resources/articles/Trilogy.htm (http://www.oakmeadow.com/resources/articles/Trilogy.htm)[/list]
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the boy didn't know how to discharge his feelings. at all. it sounds like the truth circles at the program enabled him to open up and get at the deeper issues. there ARE deeper issues. not every wilderness therapy story is a bad one. yes, their relationship was affected, but clearly good came from it as well.
I'm going to discharge my feelings in the form of a gun aimed at your head.
Critically, who the hell are you to abduct anyone, and hold them captive to get them to "discharge" their feelings? How bout I abduct you? Where do you live? Honestly, I'd like to know. I am going to come and kidnap you, and take you into the wilderness.
I'm also going to rape you, no, don't thank me. I just want you to learn some lessons. Then, I'm going to cut off your left foot. Again, what has this been shown to help? NOTHING. Wilderness abduction has never been medically proved to do anything but hurt, as cutting off your left foot has never been proved to do anything but harm. So What. Maybe, you’ll get at the deeper issues
Any trauma always makes you get at the deeper issues as you’ve been freshly supplied with deeper issues by the trauma.
You’ll definitely learn how to handle your anger. Well, you’ll need to. You don’t have a foot. That's horrible, right?
Anyway, so please post your address so we can begin the magnificent journey of abduction/rape/mutilation therapy.
It seems clear that you did not have a good experience, but that doesnt mean many other children do not.
I am going to continue raping and foot chopping as "treatment".
The thousands of lobotomy/rape victims who say having such “treatmentâ€
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seriously, what is wrong with TheWho?
:rofl:
It may not be TheWho. Someone other than TheWho or CCMgirl has been recently found posting in support of some of their viewpoints.
Yep, the post above this here one crossed my mind too. Some other threads in TTI are even more obvious tho.
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And he doesnt like psy in particular. Benchmark staff?
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And he doesnt like psy in particular. Benchmark staff?
Nah, he/she/it seems to focus fire at one person at a time. He/she/it comes and goes. My guess is Anne Hall, but it's hard to tell with really insane programmies; they all seem to gravitate towards one central point as far as writing style goes.
He/she/it doesn't know how to deal with Anonymous, though. :)
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Not Anne Hall; it's a bloke. Uses lots of big words and condescends. A superiority complex?
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Not Anne Hall; it's a bloke. Uses lots of big words and condescends. A superiority complex?
Hey, thats gender discrimination :D But really, I don't see so much in the way of big words, or even a superiority complex. There's just alot of cult speak, but real full on, not able to tell that it sounds crazy cult speak...A true beleiver, anyway. Maybeit's miss scarlet with the candle holder, in the library.
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if a particular wing of the government requires people to be tested or licensed fine, but don’t let that put your guard down and feel it means your kids are anymore safe, because they are not.
This is so true. Many a kid has been killed in licensed facilities. Tens of thousands have been psychologically damaged, injured, and raped. The difference between licensed and unlicensed, someone is coming in ocassionally to monitor and the facility is required to report abuse, neglect and deaths. Without that information how can the any parent make an informed decision? The safe bet is to keep your kid home or as near home as possible so you can check in unannounced on a regular basis. Because abuse and neglect are so inherent to institutions, a parent should never, under any circumstances, allow strangers to sever contact between them and their child. License or no license.
What parents should also contemplate is that inherent to the industry is the avoidance of licensure. What are they hiding? Why do they resist being monitored? Why does the industry fight to keep the truth hidden?
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I think licensure might also give the parents more of a hammer to work with should things come to a lawsuit. Often what people/programs get sentenced for is not the true real crime, or the worst thing that happened to the kid, but some little "t" that somebody forgot to cross. Desperate, angry family plus creative, determined attorney equals full body press to find something, anything that these people can be held accountable for.
Think Randall Hinton got his due? Think the charges even approximate what he should have been on trial for? Perhaps that is a bad example, my brain isn't working up to speed right now, but the general gist of what I'm trying to say is still in that ball park...
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This is so true. Many a kid has been killed in licensed facilities. Tens of thousands have been psychologically damaged, injured, and raped. The difference between licensed and unlicensed, someone is coming in ocassionally to monitor and the facility is required to report abuse, neglect and deaths. Without that information how can the any parent make an informed decision? The safe bet is to keep your kid home or as near home as possible so you can check in unannounced on a regular basis. Because abuse and neglect are so inherent to institutions, a parent should never, under any circumstances, allow strangers to sever contact between them and their child. License or no license.
I agree, it should never be the first option to send a child away. It should be saved as a last resort if the child doesn’t respond to local services and other options close to home. If the child needs to be away from home the parent should review how their communication will be handled, the qualifications of the staff and therapists and have the therapists be in weekly contact with the childs home therapist.
What parents should also contemplate is that inherent to the industry is the avoidance of licensure. What are they hiding? Why do they resist being monitored? Why does the industry fight to keep the truth hidden?
If a parent is looking for a state run agency or an agency which takes kids from the states court systems they should look for and choose a school which is licensed with the state.
If they are looking for a school which runs independently (more private) these facilities usually work outside the restrictions of the state and therefore can have more flexibility dealing with each individual child.
State licensing is a good thing but brings along with it a ton of restrictions and red tape which drives up the cost of treatment. Anyone who has dealt with a state agency or has visited a state run facility will know what I am talking about, they insure minimum standards but are not of any use to schools which far exceed them and licensing may actually bring their standards down.
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Think Randall Cook got his due?
Wrong Randall, Ursus. Randall Hinton is the smacktard who we haven't heard about the sentencing of. Randall Cook is the little WWASPS bitch who thinks he can code.
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Think Randall Cook got his due?
Wrong Randall, Ursus. Randall Hinton is the smacktard who we haven't heard about the sentencing of. Randall Cook is the little WWASPS bitch who thinks he can code.
Hey, I did say my brain wasn't functioning up to snuff today, eh? Thanks for the correction; wouldn't want that misnomer to travel too far in this thread!!
Geesh!! Do I need more coffee! :oops:
(Error has been corrected.)
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the comments on here don't even have anything to do with the article anymore... you guys really need to calm it down.
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the comments on here don't even have anything to do with the article anymore... you guys really need to calm it down.
Let me guess, still an anal virgin, right?
It's OK, we have a solution.
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This is an interesting thread with lots of ideas and solutions.