Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: hanzomon4 on October 17, 2007, 01:31:09 PM
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Getting Tough on Private Prisons for Teens (http://http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=getting_tough_on_private_prisons_for_teens)
Maia Szalavitz | October 16, 2007 | web only
Members of Congress heard jarring testimony from the Government Accountability Office (GAO) last week about people who were denied medical care, starved, beaten, and "forced to eat vomit, lie in urine and feces, forced to use toothbrushes to clean toilets and then on their teeth."
A latecomer to the proceedings might "think we were talking about human-rights abuses in Third World countries," said Rep. George Miller of California, who convened the hearing. In fact, Congress was for the first time discussing abuses in "tough love" residential programs for teenagers.
These programs -- variously known as "boot camps," "emotional growth schools," "wilderness programs," and "therapeutic boarding schools" -- sell themselves to parents as a way of fighting teen drug use, behavioral problems, and various mental illnesses like depression, attention deficit disorder (ADD), even bipolar disorder (formerly known as manic depression). Some programs are public and are part of the juvenile justice system, others are run by private, for-profit organizations. Some are part of large networks of affiliates; others are independent. All lock up teens without contact from the outside world.
At Miller's request, the GAO recently investigated 10 deaths in such facilities, and found thousands of other allegations of abuse. Miller had called for the investigation after reading media accounts of abuses and discovering that not only are the private prisons for teenagers unregulated, but no one even knows how many there are or how many teenagers are held incommunicado in them without any civil-rights protections. It is time, Miller says, for federal regulation of these programs.
The ranking Republican on the committee, Howard P. McKeon of California, said the testimony of three parents whose children had been killed "boggled the mind." He noted that while he usually doesn't support broadening federal oversight, "there are some times when it has to happen."
But successfully regulating this billion-dollar industry will be an enormous challenge. The GAO investigation showed that when many abusive programs are exposed, they simply change names and/or move to different states, with staff avoiding accountability. And the programs often have powerful political allies, allowing them to skillfully dodge regulatory frameworks such as those that cover psychiatric hospitals or prisons.
To understand just how daunting it will be to implement federal oversight, one need only to hear the story of Straight Inc. and its offspring. The Florida-based anti-drug program is the granddaddy of the teen "tough love" industry. It was shuttered in 1993 following reports of serious abuses, but several programs derived from it remain open, state-licensed in addiction treatment, and, in many cases, accredited by respected organizations like the Council on Accreditation.
Straight was founded in 1976 by Republican heavyweight Mel Sembler-- who chaired the finance committee for the party during the 2000 elections and heads the Scooter Libby defense fund. Straight was based on a federally funded experiment in the 1970s called The Seed that had been denounced by a congressional investigation as "similar to the highly refined brainwashing techniques employed by the North Koreans."
Nonetheless, Straight spent the 1980s as Nancy Reagan's favorite drug treatment program and won wide praise from Democrats as well. By the early 1990s, it had nine facilities in seven states, and it claims to have "treated" 50,000 teens. It only went from media darling to media devil when reports of its regime of psychological and physical abuse became too ubiquitous (and civil lawsuits too expensive) to ignore. Terminal attrition followed the bad press, lawsuits, and state investigations, ultimately causing Straight to shut itself down.
After Straight finally closed its doors in 1993, The St. Petersburg Times wrote an editorial headlined, "A Persistent, Foul Odor." It covered a state investigation that suggested influence from Sembler and other politicians had contributed to Straight's ability to stay open despite documented abuse.
However, just as The Seed produced Straight, Straight spawned as well. At least six programs using identical "therapeutic" language and the same model still operate today in the U.S. and Canada. They are all run by former Straight participants or former employees of programs copied directly from Straight.
The largest remaining Straight-descendant program, the Pathway Family Center, has sites in three states and support from major companies like Emmis Communications and the professional basketball team, the Indiana Pacers.
Founded by Terri Nissley, whose expertise lies in the fact that she had an addicted daughter and her family participated in Straight, Pathway opened in Detroit in 1993. In fact, according to The Tampa Tribune, the facility was simply Straight's Detroit affiliate, reincorporated under a new name.
Pathway has continued to expand, swallowing up another former Straight facility and opening several new ones. In 2006, Pathway took over Kids Helping Kids, an Ohio program which evolved out of Straight-Cincinnati. The program also has centers in Southfield, Michigan, and in Indianapolis and Chesterton, Indiana. The Chesterton location opened just this year, despite efforts from survivors of the Straight model to warn the community that the program was outdated and harmful.
What makes these "tough love" programs uniquely dangerous is that they are led by amateurs who believe they are experts. No qualifications are needed to own, operate, or work with kids at such programs -- although they often employ some professionals, their influence is subsumed by the organizations' strict rules and regimes. And while they claim to treat serious mental illnesses and addictions, many of their tactics conflict with proven therapies for these conditions and they often don't even have the expertise to diagnose them properly.
The programs also tend to endorse an outdated view of teen problems in which confronting, humiliating, and degrading adolescents is seen as beneficial -- while kindness is stigmatized as "codependence" or "enabling." As leading addictions-outcomes researcher William Miller, Ph.D. put it in a recent paper, "Four decades of research have failed to yield a single clinical trial showing efficacy of confrontational counseling, whereas a number have documented harmful effects, particularly for more vulnerable populations."
The programs descended from Straight are especially problematic because they house kids from one often-dysfunctional family in the home of another. To regulators, this appears to be "outpatient" treatment, but kids are not free to leave. In these programs, new teens are held in the houses of families of teens who have been at the program longer ("oldcomers"). Newcomers spend their first nights in bedrooms with specially set alarms and where, teens say, the "oldcomers" frequently keep their beds against the door -- a fire hazard that's meant to prevent escape attempts.
At night, these "oldcomer" teens -- many of whom were admitted to the program due to anti-social behavior -- have absolute power over "newcomers." According to former program participants I interviewed, they can restrain them if they try to run, deny them the right to go to the bathroom, and impose other punishments. Every program that has used this Lord of the Flies system has, not surprisingly, run into serious problems.
Some of the more egregious physical practices at Pathway centers and other Straight descendants appear to have been dropped. They no longer make kids flap their arms wildly instead of raising their hands to get attention, or deny newcomers freedom of movement by having oldcomers push them around by their belt loops, whenever they aren't seated.
But according to teens, parents, and a former employee, the amateurish and confrontational core of the program remains.
Holly Guernsey's 15-year-old daughter -- I'll call her "Blair" -- had been caught stealing a pint of Schnapps from a store. She had previously been diagnosed with depression and ADD and had also been cutting herself. After the shoplifting incident, Blair's grandmother found Pathway in a Michigan phone book, and in January 2007, Blair was brought in for an evaluation. "We were concerned, but we didn't think she was an alcoholic," says Guernsey. "We thought the pot and alcohol were just symptoms. We were told [Pathway] would deal with the underlying problems," Guernsey told me.
But Blair soon found herself in a program where drugs were the focus. She says she was repeatedly told that she was lying about the amount of drugs she'd taken, and she quickly became severely depressed.
She spent her nights in a host home, with an alarm on the locked bedroom windows and a doorbell and alarm on the door. To go to the bathroom, she'd have to wake her "oldcomer" to ring the bell, wake the parents to silence the alarm, and then be escorted to the bathroom. At this "phase" of the program, kids are not allowed to read, watch TV, hear music, go to school, or even talk without permission. For most of the 10 to 12 hour days they spent at the center, teens say they have to sit still and straight with their feet flat on the ground.
One night, Blair broke a glass candleholder and slit her wrists. "There was blood everywhere," she says, explaining that she was made to stay up all night in the bathroom, apparently so that she could be monitored and so that she would not leave bloodstains where they couldn't easily be rinsed away. She says she was not seen by an internist or psychiatrist -- nor did Pathway inform her mother of the suicide attempt, which left scars.
Months later, Blair "earned" the right to go home. "As soon as we got alone with her, she would just sob," Guernsey says. But Blair didn't tell her mother what had happened.
Parents and teens who have been through Pathway told me that if an adolescent says anything at all negative about the program to her parents or anyone else, Pathway considers it "manipulation," and if it's reported, the teen will become a "newcomer" again, forced to return to a host home. Other teens get in similar trouble if they overhear such "manipulation" but do not inform program staff.
Guernsey only learned of her daughter's suicide attempt because two girls who were living with Blair decided to break this rule. One had been living with her in the host home where she'd slit her wrists. The girls told Guernsey that Blair needed professional help and begged her not to report them.
Soon, Guernsey discovered that another family had had a similar experience. I spoke to them as well. A woman -- I'll call her "Ada" here because she wishes to remain anonymous -- told me that her daughter had been admitted to Pathway for being suicidal. Yet Ada says she wasn't told when, while at a Pathway host home, the girl swallowed dish detergent and jumped off a 7-foot-high balcony. Again, both mother and daughter say the teen wasn't seen by a doctor.
A woman who attended the now-Pathway-affiliated Kids Helping Kids in 2003 reported similar abuses, including teens being made to restrain and even beat other teens who did not comply with the program.
Pathway's Executive Director Terri Nissley says every one of these negative allegations is "not true." In an e-mail, she wrote, "Pathway Family Center provides a professional and effective therapeutic community evidenced by our quarterly Parent and Client Satisfaction surveys, Exit Interviews with all families upon discharge, and countless testimonials from parents and clients. Our accreditation with CARF [the Commission on the Accreditation of Rehabilitation Facilities] is a testament to our commitment to person-centered, quality services. The agency was given an exemplary rating for our host home component... The adolescents are always treated with respect and dignity."
She also wrote, "A recent allegation was investigated by Pathway, CARF and the State of Michigan and was determined to be unfounded."
However, a knowledgeable state official who did not want to be named said that recent complaints regarding the host homes have not been resolved.
For reasons unrelated to the allegations, Pathway says it recently switched accreditation agencies from the Council on Accreditation (COA) to CARF, but a COA staffer said that Pathway had been put on probation due to complaints and had not resolved the situation before it switched agencies.
The Florida Straight descendant, Growing Together, finally folded last year after a 2004 exposé detailed bizarre sexual molestation of teens in host homes going back to 1997. And the reports out of Canada's Alberta Adolescent Recovery Center, which also uses the Straight host-home model, are just as horrifying.
These problems are clearly not just the result of a few "bad apples" taking charge. Allegations of abuse have rapidly arisen against any program using this treatment model. Consequently, careful regulation is desperately needed to ensure that adolescents with mental illnesses and behavior disorders are not subjected to it or to similar forms of quackery and to see to it that they actually get appropriate treatment. Straight and its descendants prove conclusively that troubled teens are too vulnerable to be left under the care of amateurs -- especially amateurs who are under less oversight than mental health professionals.
Rep. Miller is writing legislation intended to remedy the situation, which he plans to introduce early next year. The support from his committee's ranking Republican is enormously promising. However, the details here are truly devilish: bad regulation might further legitimize the industry, rather than successfully rein it in.
For example, if lax regulation is imposed, parents might be led to believe that these programs are being closely overseen by authorities. Straight was state-regulated as an addiction treatment center, as is Pathway, despite official complaints from families. Federal regulation without strict enforcement could allow programs to claim that there is oversight, even if it is toothless.
Effective regulation would at minimum ban the use of "host homes," ban corporal punishment in residential facilities (including punitive use of isolation and restraint), and require that mental illnesses and addictions be evaluated and treated only by professionals. By requiring independent evaluation before placement and on an ongoing basis, such legislation could restrict lockdown institutional care for teens to short periods of professionalized, empathetic inpatient care necessary for safety. It should also outlaw coerced placement in "wilderness programs" and the marketing of any unlicensed, locked facility for teens as treatment for psychological disorders or drug problems. (In fact, just this week, Rep. Miller asked the FTC to look into the industry's deceptive marketing practices.)
To have the strongest impact, regulation should also ban employees found to have engaged in corroborated abuse from further work in the industry and should prevent organizations found to be abusive from simply renaming themselves or moving to another state. It would have to be funded to provide for strict enforcement and ideally, would also have to fund evidence-based, outpatient alternatives to help desperate families.
Tough love cannot be made safe when carried out by lock-down institutions; since it doesn't offer any therapeutic advantage and carries serious risks, there is no need for an "alternative" system of unregulated private jails to impose it on teenagers. Regulation should provide for care that actually works. Four decades of Straight and its offspring is more than enough.
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Regulating the Teen Torture Industry... The new pissing in the wind for the new mellenium..
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Well yeah, but all this noise out of the pols is starting to seep into the mainstream conciousness.
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Maybe we'll have another reality show showing kids getting abused, should be awesome.
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Well yeah, but all this noise out of the pols is starting to seep into the mainstream conciousness.
Reminds me about how the KKK gets out the message about the much vaunted superior white race. Lots of noise, a few cross burnings, lynch a few black folks for good measure, and what you have is a bunch of assholes running around looking like bigger assholes than before.
What you get is some awareness alright... but none of it has anything to do with the superiority of the white race.... more everything to do with the obvious genetic failings of a certain subsection of the human race as a whole for having the total lack of brains to participate in KKK like activities in the first place.
Sure congress is raising up its arms.. people are hearing about it.. but I'm afraid, and with good cause given the sheeple like nature of America as demonstrated right here on fornits by everyones charge for the door of regulation, that these hearings will raise the awareness for the need to promote regulation.. and with regulation the false illusion of safety..
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that these hearings will raise the awareness for the need to promote regulation.. and with regulation the false illusion of safety..
:nworthy:
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Well yeah, but all this noise out of the pols is starting to seep into the mainstream conciousness.
Reminds me about how the KKK gets out the message about the much vaunted superior white race. Lots of noise, a few cross burnings, lynch a few black folks for good measure, and what you have is a bunch of assholes running around looking like bigger assholes than before.
What you get is some awareness alright... but none of it has anything to do with the superiority of the white race.... more everything to do with the obvious genetic failings of a certain subsection of the human race as a whole for having the total lack of brains to participate in KKK like activities in the first place.
Sure congress is raising up its arms.. people are hearing about it.. but I'm afraid, and with good cause given the sheeple like nature of America as demonstrated right here on fornits by everyones charge for the door of regulation, that these hearings will raise the awareness for the need to promote regulation.. and with regulation the false illusion of safety..
Ditto, I'm glad Maia raised this issue in her piece. I hope that the next round of hearings focuses on the fact that a) abuse is part of the treatment model and not some oops mistake on the part of programs b) That regulations have largely failed at keeping kids safe thus far. I also hope they look into the older programs, like Straight, because nothing that is happening now is new. The lingo and names may change but the model and, in many cases, key players stay the same. It must be said: You can't make shit smell no better, it's shit!!!!
By the way @Survivors, stay on top of this. The GAO investigation is still going on and another report is due in Feburary. You'd best believe that after Natsap's vicious beating they are going to pull out all the stops to see to it that the same doesn't happen next time. Remember Natasp's sole agenda is obstruction to any real change for the sake of money. They called you a few noisy complainers.... Hell that's fighting words, now you got to cut 'em.... That's the rule.
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Natsap will survive no matter how harsh the legislation is passed. they can pass a law banning all programmes today and by tonight they will all have been changed to long term theraputic child care facilities with a class b license to operate from a cracker jacks box.
natsap will at best play the meek role. they aren't stupid.. had they gotten up there and slaughtered the three parents like I probably would have had I been that one broad then they would have looked like nazi thugs..
why in the world would they generate more sympathy points than they need to?
best to play meek.. lay low.. and pass out generous heapings of Pac dollars behind the scenes...
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Clearly NATSAP weaseled their way into the hearing as an 'expert' witness, assuming they would get the same warm welcome they did in Utah, Montana, and elsewhere; and immediate respect and admiration of the committee.
Stettler at Utah licensing gave them a seat on the board to help create regulations... in other words, create the regulations programs in Utah (themselves) would be subject to- self-regulation.
Montana welcomed them with open arms and adopted their "standards" to to be used to give the appearence that the PARRP board was 'regulating' programs (themselves).
They all want self-regulation and they're using NATSAP as a vehicle to accomplish that.
No one on the committee, with the exception of McKeon, appeared the least bit impressed with NATSAP. Most expressed serious concerns and obvious disdain.
As a result of that hearing NATSAP is getting negative press. Miller's comment, "What the hell do you do?" is quoted all over the internet.
Found this interesting blog this morning....
Jim Horn, PhD blog
http://schoolsmatter.blogspot.com/2007/ ... ubled.html (http://schoolsmatter.blogspot.com/2007/10/shut-down-torture-camps-for-troubled.html)
Thursday, October 11, 2007
Shut Down the Torture Camps for Troubled Children
Where can you have your troubled teen warehoused, forced to eat her own vomit, marched until heat stroke sets in, and then charged $500 per day?
Only in a free country that is also free of state and federal oversight for the thousands of boot camps, er, "wilderness training" schools, where troubled children are first discarded by negligent or just plain stupid adults.
Instead of meddling in the business of accreditation for colleges, I am wondering if Sec. Spellings has checked into the credentialing of this PR outfit that lies, dissembles, and covers up for the sanctioned sadists who torture thousands of innocent teens in their sanctioned hell schools: the National Association of Therapeutic Schools and Programs (NATSAP). From reading a bit of their public school bashing in their propaganda literature, I would guess NATSAP postion gets warm receptions from the ed industry enablers. From a NATSAP white paper:
In the past 25 years the level of structure and protection for youth in our society has deteriorated. More than 33% of public high school students drop out of school. Drug use is rampant in junior high and high school, and these drugs are more powerful, addictive, and dangerous. More and more young people have addictions such as cutting, and eating disorders. More are being diagnosed with depression (including bipolar disorder), anxiety, attention deficit disorder, and oppositional defiance. Use of prescription medications to manage emotional and behavioral problems has increased. These facts are symptoms of an adolescent culture that is stressed, overwhelmed, and struggling to cope.
And, of course, the NATSAP has a dues-paying torture camp just right for all these children.
Today's Arizona Republic has a story on the latest GAO report ( Full Report PDF, 34 pages) on these private youth boot camps, and it looks specifically into ten cases where teens died. Recommendation from Congress: Don't go there until regulation and oversight are put in place:
The Government Accountability Office, the investigative arm of Congress, also announced it has identified thousands of allegations of abuse, some involving death, at boot camps since the early 1990s. It cataloged 1,619 incidents of abuse in 33 states in 2005.
~~He goes on to recount more of the hearing.
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Again you miss my point. No committee or hearing or reach around by George Miller is going to do away with Nutsack. They didn't come off strong on this one because they full well knew it wasn't in their best interest to do so.
All this talk about effective legislation makes me laugh. There is no way to effectively legislate the safety of children. Never has been and there never will be.
At best Maia's suggestion will act as a band aid on the festering wound of human nature. Sadism, cruelty, abuse all run in the heart and pulse of every single human being. It lurks beneath the surface waiting to get out and even in the most regulated of enviroments it still escapes.
I've worked in two different companies and have spent time working under the auspices of five different programmes. All of them regulated to one extent or another and all of them had abuse happen.
You can't force human nature to not rear its ugly head when you have a system that empowers the worst part of human nature.
Sorry but Maia is off base on this one. Legislation of programmes is not the answer... it is nothing more than some New York Liberal bullshit band aid on the problem.
Creating a comprehensive system of civil rights for children is in my opinion a far stronger way of protecting children. Foolproof? Oh Hell no fucking no. Let's forget so easily that even in adult prisons, treatment centers, and psyciatric facilites governed by the proper alphabet soup government agencies that give some of you forniscators a total fucking hard on just for hearing the name that abuse STILL regularly happens.
I have to say this pretty clearly.. but enjoy this while you can because the same time next year or the year after we will find ourselves right back to square one.. except this time we will have to deal with the fact that these programmes are "regulated".
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If you're addressing me,
I didn't miss your point. I completely understand your position and agree for the most part.
I have never said that I believe regulation will keep kids safe. In fact, I have posted numerous cases of abuse and death in regulated facilities. I am very much in touch with that reality.
With or without regulation programs will be operating next year, short of a major recession leaving middle-class parents unable to afford them.
What could come of this is accurate data on the industry. That programs be required to report all cases of abuse, neglect, injury, assaults, deaths.
That is my hope.
And that's a long shot with the current legislation.
In the meantime, I'm enjoying watching NATSAP be publicly exposed, humiliated, and discredited. It's also good to have the GAO investigation of 10 facilities out there, and more to come. Unfortunately, that GAO report carries more credibility with the average parent than 50 survivor stories.
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I agree with Deborah. The idea of having absolutely no clear regulations in place is dangerous. it means that even in cases of gross negligence a program can claim that it was not breaking any rules so can not be held accountable. There should be a legal remedy for all who have been wronged by this system. Without this it means that negligence is literally legal.
The only way in which any industry like this can be done away with completely is thorough education at all levels and a change of public opinion. This way govt *may* eventually get around to banning them. This has been the case with campaigns against the death penalty and other human rights issues. Regulation is only a way of condoning programs if then no further education and lobbying is done.
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Snipped for relevance
Unfortunately, that GAO report carries more credibility with the average parent than 50 survivor stories.
With all due respect, you do not know this to be fact - you are speculating about what an "average" parent considers to be "credible".
Second, reports that mainstream America actually gives a shit about institutionalized child abuse, the hearing or the GAO report are greatly exaggerated.
But turn on the news and guaranteed you will hear all about Brittney Spears latest custody woes.
:roll:
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If you're addressing me,
I didn't miss your point. I completely understand your position and agree for the most part.
I have never said that I believe regulation will keep kids safe. In fact, I have posted numerous cases of abuse and death in regulated facilities. I am very much in touch with that reality.
With or without regulation programs will be operating next year, short of a major recession leaving middle-class parents unable to afford them.
What could come of this is accurate data on the industry. That programs be required to report all cases of abuse, neglect, injury, assaults, deaths.
That is my hope.
And that's a long shot with the current legislation.
In the meantime, I'm enjoying watching NATSAP be publicly exposed, humiliated, and discredited. It's also good to have the GAO investigation of 10 facilities out there, and more to come. Unfortunately, that GAO report carries more credibility with the average parent than 50 survivor stories.
^^ never would have guessed that you felt this way from the posts you've been making lately. Hell if you were a man I'd have thought you were aiming for a four way with Pinto and Maia and George in front of the Lincoln Memorial.
Either way I do agree with the anon.. Britney spears will get more airtime than we ever will.
TSW
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Call me naive, but IMO, the industry's days are numbered. Not because of anything that is happening now, but because it is only a matter of time before enough of us end up in legislative positions to push for eradication as opposed to reform.
Think about it, the majority of clientele for these programs are upper/middle class whites of some influence. (Hell, I went to RMA with a DuPont as well as Barbara Walters' daughter [briefly].) What are the odds that there won't be a few who think the program was full of shit and end up on the hill? If you keep shoveling kids into these places, pretty soon all you are going to have left is a country full of survivors... and some of them, one day, are going to be in positions of influence. Contrary to popular opinion, not all of us are completely low functioning and paralyzed, or conversely, frothy programmies spouting feel-good jargon left and right and talking about how raps taught them to communicate effectively as a courtroom attorney.
Yeah yeah, I know that the numbers aren't *that* high... yet.
My point is, at some point, the country is going to *have* to deal with this, and with us, because they can't kill us all, and they most certainly have killed enough.
Besides, I doubt any of *us* are going to be sending our kids to one of these places. So... there's a bit of a chunk of the next iteration of parents who won't be buying into that. The TTI is building their own obsolescence, by creating a generation of very unhappy campers.
I'm rather jaded when it comes to ideas of reform vs. revolution. (You are talking to an ex-marxist, after all.) Reform is just lip service to people who want change, in an effort to make the shell game seem more legitimate. Revolution is normally spouted by people who wouldn't know the first thing to do if revolution actually happened. They believe in ideals, and don't understand pragmatics. They don't forsee or try to predict possible scenarios for the aftermath and how to handle it or how to do damage control. If revolution happened, I would be as surprised and as unprepared and as taken aback as any of those industry fuckers who didn't even see it coming.
I'll go on record as casting my vote for the "eradicate the industry" tactic, but the key is in the pursestrings. Money and fear are what keeps this thing alive, so that's what must be addressed. We can't hit the people who run these places, we all know they are crazy. It's about smear... negative advertising... where's Karl Rove when you need him? He could make everyone in this country hate the TTI with a thirty second time slot. Yeah, he's an asshole, but he knows how to play people.
All I'm saying is that there are a lot of people in this country who watch TV... that's all I'm saying.
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The industry will go the way of sweat shops.
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The industry will go the way of sweat shops.
To China?
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Americans confusing always.. you have good peoples to keep children humble.. but you no like? Why Americans not want good obedient children?
Hitting children good for them... Teach them respect for older persons..
Why Americans no like obedient children?
American weak country full with fat lazy peoples. Korea better country with many better peoples who love children..
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Americans confusing always.. you have good peoples to keep children humble.. but you no like? Why Americans not want good obedient children?
Hitting children good for them... Teach them respect for older persons..
Why Americans no like obedient children?
American weak country full with fat lazy peoples. Korea better country with many better peoples who love children..
Lord...
Something tells me I'm going to enjoy this troll....... lol
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The industry will go the way of sweat shops.
To China?
Kathy Lee Gifford will take over...
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Again you miss my point. No committee or hearing or reach around by George Miller is going to do away with Nutsack. They didn't come off strong on this one because they full well knew it wasn't in their best interest to do so.
Yeah. I thought that might be the case too.. still might be. we'll find out.
All this talk about effective legislation makes me laugh. There is no way to effectively legislate the safety of children. Never has been and there never will be.
At best Maia's suggestion will act as a band aid on the festering wound of human nature. Sadism, cruelty, abuse all run in the heart and pulse of every single human being. It lurks beneath the surface waiting to get out and even in the most regulated of enviroments it still escapes.
Well you do have to admit that human beings do also have redeeming qualities, such as love. But power does corrupt. We used to use the term "power trip" to describe the behavior of the staff at Benchmark... How apt. Add a twisted sense of camaraderie and loyalty (reporting friends to the cops?) to the mix along with a cult belief system and you have yourself a program. People compromise their ethics little by little and when they're told they're helping the kids there comes thebrain damaged (http://http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/27/AR2007052701056.html) rationalization that the ends justifies the means. Then there's the temptation of money and those staff, ed-cons, and other industry whores who simply have no conscience at all (see Sue Scheff, Lichfield, Jan Moss, Jayne Longnecker( hi there! ), et al.)
Fuck legislation. It won't do shit but
I've worked in two different companies and have spent time working under the auspices of five different programmes. All of them regulated to one extent or another and all of them had abuse happen.
You can't force human nature to not rear its ugly head when you have a system that empowers the worst part of human nature.
Sorry but Maia is off base on this one. Legislation of programmes is not the answer... it is nothing more than some New York Liberal bullshit band aid on the problem.
Creating a comprehensive system of civil rights for children is in my opinion a far stronger way of protecting children. Foolproof? Oh Hell no fucking no. Let's forget so easily that even in adult prisons, treatment centers, and psyciatric facilites governed by the proper alphabet soup government agencies that give some of you forniscators a total fucking hard on just for hearing the name that abuse STILL regularly happens.
I have to say this pretty clearly.. but enjoy this while you can because the same time next year or the year after we will find ourselves right back to square one.. except this time we will have to deal with the fact that these programmes are "regulated".
See: (and i hope you're reading, Maia): The general idea these people who want legislation think about is: "ooh.. let's just use this as a stepping stone". You forget to take the "abolitionist" analogy a step further: legislation was tried to gradually phase out slavery, It failed. Why? Because creative people with a lot to lose found loopholes around what was originally intended to discourage the practice. Like TSW said, they will find a way to exist. They operate like organized crime crossed with scientology. Check out the recent news about "coaches" on the Benchmark website. By changing the wording and spending cash for a 36 hour course they can avoid legislation.
And I don't trust the 12-stepper staffed California ADP at all to give a good god damn about what a fellow coven does. Most state licensing folks seem to be some blend of incompetant, stupid, lazy, encumbered by beaurocrocy, corrupt, and/or sympathetic to the programs themselves and their staff (who know how to present themselves as honest, hard working, "recovering addicts"). I hate to rail so hard on AA, but it really is the origin of a whole lot of this mess* (that isn't even to mention the questions that surround the program's efficacy) I'm by no means saying: abolish AA. I'm saying it should be recognised as the cult "religion" it is and never forced on somebody as "treatment", especially minors.
* AA bore Synanon and AA continues to be distorted and used by various sections of the industry.
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I am not so naive as to believe that regulation will ever take down this industry. What I do believe, quite strongly, is that what is needed is a cultural paradigm shift to one that believes in the fundamental rights of children and teenagers to self-determination, the in-efficacy of these programs, that abuse has no justification regardless of end result, and finally that "behaviour modification" is indeed a fundamentally abusive practice. How do I think this will happen? It must be done step by step. I sincerely believe that although it will not be the one fell swoop that takes out all RTCs, TBSs, and wilderness camps, the GAO investigation will quietly make one of the first bold statements that maybe something is wrong.
The introduction of anti-slavery legislation did not take down what had become the cultural norm - but it was one of the first blows to destroy the behemoth.
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Kids doesn't desarve no goddadburn rights, cuz they ain't no better than a bunch of fuckin NIGGERS! Eff'n mine evah try t'"assert their rights" ah's gonna drag 'em out t'th' woodshed an' tear up their uppity li'l asses!
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Again you miss my point. No committee or hearing or reach around by George Miller is going to do away with Nutsack. They didn't come off strong on this one because they full well knew it wasn't in their best interest to do so.
In its current form, as just a trade organization, NATSAP is pretty useless, since it only assures that a member program meets certain self monitored standards. and who knows if they actually check or require documentation for licensing etc. With some pressure from Congress, it could evolve into a useful body. It obviously needs board members who are not Program Directors.
All this talk about effective legislation makes me laugh. There is no way to effectively legislate the safety of children. Never has been and there never will be. I've worked in two different companies and have spent time working under the auspices of five different programmes. All of them regulated to one extent or another and all of them had abuse happen.
Perhaps not, but legislation could go a long way in providing at least some protection, and ensuring a minimum baseline of safety standards. I agree legislation is not the magic wand, and needs to address much more than just the licensing and accreditation that NATSAP promotes. After all, my son died in a regulated, licensed and accredited facility that had a good track record, a well known clinical program and all that. I mistakenly associated licensing and accreditation with regulation, like many other parents. Hopefully the hearing and the media attention will get the word out about how little regulation and oversight there is in the industry. Legislation at least starts to address this, it's not a panacea by any means.
Creating a comprehensive system of civil rights for children is in my opinion a far stronger way of protecting children.
This is a really good point, and is something I plan to pursue, I've already starting talking to some protection and advocacy groups about this. I hope the GAO addresses the civil rights of kids in programs. It shouldn't be any different than a hospital stay. Physical abuse and neglect aside, there are all kinds of civil rights issues. ALL kids in programs should not only have a bonafide diagnosis and treatment plan, with parental permission for any medication changes, but also access to an advocate not employed by the program. there has to be better oversight of any institutionalization of children for any reason.
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Again you miss my point. No committee or hearing or reach around by George Miller is going to do away with Nutsack. They didn't come off strong on this one because they full well knew it wasn't in their best interest to do so.
In its current form, as just a trade organization, NATSAP is pretty useless, since it only assures that a member program meets certain self monitored standards. and who knows if they actually check or require documentation for licensing etc. With some pressure from Congress, it could evolve into a useful body. It obviously needs board members who are not Program Directors.
All this talk about effective legislation makes me laugh. There is no way to effectively legislate the safety of children. Never has been and there never will be. I've worked in two different companies and have spent time working under the auspices of five different programmes. All of them regulated to one extent or another and all of them had abuse happen.
Perhaps not, but legislation could go a long way in providing at least some protection, and ensuring a minimum baseline of safety standards. I agree legislation is not the magic wand, and needs to address much more than just the licensing and accreditation that NATSAP promotes. After all, my son died in a regulated, licensed and accredited facility that had a good track record, a well known clinical program and all that. I mistakenly associated licensing and accreditation with regulation, like many other parents. Hopefully the hearing and the media attention will get the word out about how little regulation and oversight there is in the industry. Legislation at least starts to address this, it's not a panacea by any means.
Creating a comprehensive system of civil rights for children is in my opinion a far stronger way of protecting children.
This is a really good point, and is something I plan to pursue, I've already starting talking to some protection and advocacy groups about this. I hope the GAO addresses the civil rights of kids in programs. It shouldn't be any different than a hospital stay. Physical abuse and neglect aside, there are all kinds of civil rights issues. ALL kids in programs should not only have a bonafide diagnosis and treatment plan, with parental permission for any medication changes, but also access to an advocate not employed by the program. there has to be better oversight of any institutionalization of children for any reason.
Your ignorance regarding Nutsack is appalling. Go back to programme kindergarten posthaste!
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In Korea my son tell me I bad parent... Me no give my son Star Craft game he want.. so son cry and mother comfort son with slap to face.. Hitting son good for son.. makes son into strong korean man.. Americans weak because no hit thier own children enough...
You Americans pay bigg companies bigg dollars to hit children.. Americans very stupid.. Keep children home and love them everyday with slap to face..
Also slap wife face every day.. good for wife.. or wife have sex with man strange men.. maybe one man be Nigerian???
Very very bad!
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I am not so naive as to believe that regulation will ever take down this industry. What I do believe, quite strongly, is that what is needed is a cultural paradigm shift to one that believes in the fundamental rights of children and teenagers to self-determination, the in-efficacy of these programs, that abuse has no justification regardless of end result, and finally that "behaviour modification" is indeed a fundamentally abusive practice. How do I think this will happen? It must be done step by step. I sincerely believe that although it will not be the one fell swoop that takes out all RTCs, TBSs, and wilderness camps, the GAO investigation will quietly make one of the first bold statements that maybe something is wrong.
The introduction of anti-slavery legislation did not take down what had become the cultural norm - but it was one of the first blows to destroy the behemoth.
^Ditto,
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Look at most Federal regulations, they're minimal guidelines, and the industry is against them? The argument I remember hearing before was about the cost involved to meet requirements...that's beyond lame. The response and general noise Catherine Freer's people are issuing is going to do them more harm than anything, especially in light of the current legal troubles of several programs.
Get rid of them all, let God sort them out.
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Call me naive, but IMO, the industry's days are numbered. Not because of anything that is happening now, but because it is only a matter of time before enough of us end up in legislative positions to push for eradication as opposed to reform.
Think about it, the majority of clientele for these programs are upper/middle class whites of some influence. (Hell, I went to RMA with a DuPont as well as Barbara Walters' daughter [briefly].) What are the odds that there won't be a few who think the program was full of shit and end up on the hill? If you keep shoveling kids into these places, pretty soon all you are going to have left is a country full of survivors... and some of them, one day, are going to be in positions of influence. Contrary to popular opinion, not all of us are completely low functioning and paralyzed, or conversely, frothy programmies spouting feel-good jargon left and right and talking about how raps taught them to communicate effectively as a courtroom attorney.
Yeah yeah, I know that the numbers aren't *that* high... yet.
My point is, at some point, the country is going to *have* to deal with this, and with us, because they can't kill us all, and they most certainly have killed enough.
Besides, I doubt any of *us* are going to be sending our kids to one of these places. So... there's a bit of a chunk of the next iteration of parents who won't be buying into that. The TTI is building their own obsolescence, by creating a generation of very unhappy campers.
I'm rather jaded when it comes to ideas of reform vs. revolution. (You are talking to an ex-marxist, after all.) Reform is just lip service to people who want change, in an effort to make the shell game seem more legitimate. Revolution is normally spouted by people who wouldn't know the first thing to do if revolution actually happened. They believe in ideals, and don't understand pragmatics. They don't forsee or try to predict possible scenarios for the aftermath and how to handle it or how to do damage control. If revolution happened, I would be as surprised and as unprepared and as taken aback as any of those industry fuckers who didn't even see it coming.
I'll go on record as casting my vote for the "eradicate the industry" tactic, but the key is in the pursestrings. Money and fear are what keeps this thing alive, so that's what must be addressed. We can't hit the people who run these places, we all know they are crazy. It's about smear... negative advertising... where's Karl Rove when you need him? He could make everyone in this country hate the TTI with a thirty second time slot. Yeah, he's an asshole, but he knows how to play people.
All I'm saying is that there are a lot of people in this country who watch TV... that's all I'm saying.
The problem with this idea is that the kind of "extremeist negativity" coming out of posts like this. Most people in this country won't even listen to it, because it sounds too extreme/off the wall. You have to fight it on their level, which is a more moderate stance. The biggest asshole in the world can't convince the American public to shut down the industry, not in a million years. you are going to have to start whereever you CAN make a difference. Look at how long it took for women and blacks to get the right to vote. change doesn't happen overnight. Those of you who promote NATSAP and/or the entrie industry getting get shut down as a result of the GAO investigation or any subsequent legislation, are actually getting in the way of reform. Nobody really takes you seriously. Except the trolls.
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Those of you who promote NATSAP and/or the entrie industry getting get shut down as a result of the GAO investigation or any subsequent legislation, are actually getting in the way of reform.
When on god's green earth did I ever say I wanted that? I don't believe that either of those scenarios are solutions, like you do. Or were you addressing people in general?
Also, what do you mean by "extreme negativity"? Negative campaign type strategies when it comes to educating?
Here's the thing: everyone says that they hate negative campaigning, and that they hate politicians who use it. Despite all of this, negative campaigning has a huge influence on people's decisions, even if they outwardly dislike these types of tactics. And the negative campaigns that are the most effective are the ones that at least have a little bit of truth to it.
Well, I think that there is more than just a little bit of truth regarding how horrible this industry is, don't you?
Besides, I think negative is a bit too strong of a word. I see it more as an expose. The fact of the matter is, the issue is about really negative stuff, so that is going to come across regardless.
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Call me naive, but IMO, the industry's days are numbered. Not because of anything that is happening now, but because it is only a matter of time before enough of us end up in legislative positions to push for eradication as opposed to reform.
Think about it, the majority of clientele for these programs are upper/middle class whites of some influence. (Hell, I went to RMA with a DuPont as well as Barbara Walters' daughter [briefly].) What are the odds that there won't be a few who think the program was full of shit and end up on the hill? If you keep shoveling kids into these places, pretty soon all you are going to have left is a country full of survivors... and some of them, one day, are going to be in positions of influence. Contrary to popular opinion, not all of us are completely low functioning and paralyzed, or conversely, frothy programmies spouting feel-good jargon left and right and talking about how raps taught them to communicate effectively as a courtroom attorney.
Yeah yeah, I know that the numbers aren't *that* high... yet.
My point is, at some point, the country is going to *have* to deal with this, and with us, because they can't kill us all, and they most certainly have killed enough.
Besides, I doubt any of *us* are going to be sending our kids to one of these places. So... there's a bit of a chunk of the next iteration of parents who won't be buying into that. The TTI is building their own obsolescence, by creating a generation of very unhappy campers.
I'm rather jaded when it comes to ideas of reform vs. revolution. (You are talking to an ex-marxist, after all.) Reform is just lip service to people who want change, in an effort to make the shell game seem more legitimate. Revolution is normally spouted by people who wouldn't know the first thing to do if revolution actually happened. They believe in ideals, and don't understand pragmatics. They don't forsee or try to predict possible scenarios for the aftermath and how to handle it or how to do damage control. If revolution happened, I would be as surprised and as unprepared and as taken aback as any of those industry fuckers who didn't even see it coming.
I'll go on record as casting my vote for the "eradicate the industry" tactic, but the key is in the pursestrings. Money and fear are what keeps this thing alive, so that's what must be addressed. We can't hit the people who run these places, we all know they are crazy. It's about smear... negative advertising... where's Karl Rove when you need him? He could make everyone in this country hate the TTI with a thirty second time slot. Yeah, he's an asshole, but he knows how to play people.
All I'm saying is that there are a lot of people in this country who watch TV... that's all I'm saying.
The problem with this idea is that the kind of "extremeist negativity" coming out of posts like this. Most people in this country won't even listen to it, because it sounds too extreme/off the wall. You have to fight it on their level, which is a more moderate stance. The biggest asshole in the world can't convince the American public to shut down the industry, not in a million years. you are going to have to start whereever you CAN make a difference. Look at how long it took for women and blacks to get the right to vote. change doesn't happen overnight. Those of you who promote NATSAP and/or the entrie industry getting get shut down as a result of the GAO investigation or any subsequent legislation, are actually getting in the way of reform. Nobody really takes you seriously. Except the trolls.
No, it took extreme stances to get real change for women and blacks. It wasn't popular at first back then. Get ride of slaves, or jim crow? Let women and niggers vote? That was some radical folks proposing those ideas, no less radical then we are. The difference perhaps is that this is now and that was then. When we look at the past struggles of blacks or women we don't always hear some of the specifics plus the issue is final in our eyes looking back. In the present orgs like Natsap or folks like Sue Scheff may not look obviously evil, groups like fornits and the ideas from it's members may look to radical, the issue is not final. Hindsight is 20/20 and socially accepted "compromises" like jim crow only delayed the radical, but right, solutions. This is about changing society not being popular and for that goal radicals are the cure.
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I've worked in two different companies and have spent time working under the auspices of five different programmes. All of them regulated to one extent or another and all of them had abuse happen.
You can't force human nature to not rear its ugly head when you have a system that empowers the worst part of human nature.
So, tell us, in the 2 companies/5 programs you worked in, did you report the abuse you witnessed? To management? outside of the program? how high up the chain did it go? was management aware of it, or was it strictly line staff? or did you watch?
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Look at most Federal regulations, they're minimal guidelines, and the industry is against them? The argument I remember hearing before was about the cost involved to meet requirements...that's beyond lame. The response and general noise Catherine Freer's people are issuing is going to do them more harm than anything, especially in light of the current legal troubles of several programs.
Get rid of them all, let God sort them out.
Another argument is that it would stiffle the program's creativity. It puts too many "limitations" on the program.
Read CFW's latest- letter to the GAO Investigator :rofl:
http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.ph ... 275#289275 (http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=289275#289275)
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I've worked in two different companies and have spent time working under the auspices of five different programmes. All of them regulated to one extent or another and all of them had abuse happen.
You can't force human nature to not rear its ugly head when you have a system that empowers the worst part of human nature.
So, tell us, in the 2 companies/5 programs you worked in, did you report the abuse you witnessed? To management? outside of the program? how high up the chain did it go? was management aware of it, or was it strictly line staff? or did you watch?
log in and try asking me again.
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Perhaps not, but legislation could go a long way in providing at least some protection, and ensuring a minimum baseline of safety standards. I agree legislation is not the magic wand, and needs to address much more than just the licensing and accreditation that NATSAP promotes. After all, my son died in a regulated, licensed and accredited facility that had a good track record, a well known clinical program and all that. I mistakenly associated licensing and accreditation with regulation, like many other parents. Hopefully the hearing and the media attention will get the word out about how little regulation and oversight there is in the industry. Legislation at least starts to address this, it's not a panacea by any means.
Quote:
Creating a comprehensive system of civil rights for children is in my opinion a far stronger way of protecting children.
This is a really good point, and is something I plan to pursue, I've already starting talking to some protection and advocacy groups about this. I hope the GAO addresses the civil rights of kids in programs. It shouldn't be any different than a hospital stay. Physical abuse and neglect aside, there are all kinds of civil rights issues. ALL kids in programs should not only have a bonafide diagnosis and treatment plan, with parental permission for any medication changes, but also access to an advocate not employed by the program. there has to be better oversight of any institutionalization of children for any reason.
In cases of human and civil rights, if there are laws on the books that make oppressive/abusive/violent actions illegal, the laws do not make the problems go away, BUT, they do provide legal recourse to those whose rights have been violated, and that is fundamentally of value. Put another way, outlawing murder and stealing does not end murder and stealing, but without those laws, victims have no recourse.
A comprehensive system of civil rights for children is long overdue. While this would not be any kind of a cure-all, it would provide a remedy under the law for individuals who have been wronged.
I share the fears expressed by others that regulation may only provide false reassurance to parents/the public.
AuntieEm
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Bump