Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Nihilanthic on January 31, 2007, 11:53:47 PM
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My counter to Kev's nonsense is as follows:
Sure, if you enumerate what is safe, effective, unabusive, and actually share with us what it is you find to be "good".
By nature in REAL medical treatment, you protect rights and are as un-restrictive as possible. That being, unless a DOCTOR says the kid needs to be locked up, he/she should not be incarcerated!
Also, LGATs of any sort.... are you saying that can be acceptable?
What about consent?
What if its a case of parents unable or unwilling, why should THEY be locked up?
Until you can answer these questions... what the hell do you expect? Shunning WWASPS but defending programs in general is just the same kind of apologist bullshit that Lon pulls. You can't say "you're too general" then be that general yourself.
I expect nobody to answer this or do anything but jack the thread or attack me, but oh well!
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We hear way too much from you TSW, shhhhhhhhhh. BFD!?!!! You're such a shit starter.
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Why not answer our questions instead of defend generally and avoid and dodge so damned much?
Why act like the very thing you CLAIM to be against?
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I suspect CCM Girl will be arriving any moment now.
Forget the psychic hotline when you have TSW on call.
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*ahem*
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You're soooooooo whitty TSW, so quick, so cool, god you're a fucking idiot. No, really! You are pathetic. Get outta the house, get off the computer, go have some social interaction. Even a dogs hairy ass is better then nothing!?!! Huh? Remember one thing, and one thing only from tonights exchange. You're nothing, nada! N-A-D-A!!!!!
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Why are you insulting gookie instead of talking about why you feel we should not say programs are bad, CCM?
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Why are you insulting gookie instead of talking about why you feel we should not say programs are bad, CCM?
Niles, I've given you plenty of attention before. I'm over you, moving on to bigger losers like TSW.
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IOW you can't defend something as general as what you try to shield from criticism... that being programs, of course, and you want to attack me dismissively instead?
:rofl:
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Why are you insulting gookie instead of talking about why you feel we should not say programs are bad, CCM?
Are these the types of nicknames you use behind closed doors too? How cute :roll:
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ThreeSpringsWayGOOKIN?
Can you do anything except nitpick me to try to avoid addressing what I have to say?
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Awwww......gookie-pooh! Should I be scared of you?
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Come on now CCM Girl answer the questions, or at least ask one back that applies to the OP.
Isn't this what you're good at? Distracting people? Maybe I should just do it to you for a while. When I have a free moment in the day. Just constantly put you down like you do everybody else. See how you like it?
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Gookie pissing you off excuses what you and Kevin doing would do to children?
Uh, no, sorry.
I vote "She can not answer" moreso than "will not".
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Gookie pissing you off excuses what you and Kevin doing would do to children?
Uh, no, sorry.
I vote "She can not answer" moreso than "will not".
Oh I am fuming Niles!!!! Just soooo mad I don't know what I am going to do?!!!
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Keep wasting our time instead of even bothering to defend your actions?
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Hopefully you'll make it off Negative Island someday! You guys constantly yap yap yap. God, the same shit, day in day out. You are so boring, I am falling asleep. Nite boys and girls.
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So now nonsense to try to dodge the issue? Wow.
Goodnight, just don't let your conscience trip on that big #800 gorilla!
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Hopefully you'll make it off Negative Island someday! You guys constantly yap yap yap. God, the same shit, day in day out. You are so boring, I am falling asleep. Nite boys and girls.
Negative Island?? Is that like Stinkin' Thinkin'? Christ girl, put down the Kool-Aid. :roll:
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Hopefully you'll make it off Negative Island someday! You guys constantly yap yap yap. God, the same shit, day in day out. You are so boring, I am falling asleep. Nite boys and girls.
Negative Island?? Is that like Stinkin' Thinkin'? Christ girl, put down the Kool-Aid. :roll:
"Settin' in yer crap..." ::bwahaha:: ::puke:: :roll:
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Spongin off the group.
Ughh! ::puke::
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Patient types? I'll have to pass... :lol:
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She has a doggie to go play with, let her be.
She may have to go help Kevin-boy police his little website, so he can try and make money selling kids into shit-hole treatment facilities.
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Kevin "fired SCD from his moderator position?" SCD appears to be an articulate, bright informed person.
Guess one can't disagree with whiny, little money-grubber referral Kev and get to stay on the ANTI-WWASP site, now can they.
HEY KEV: you sound just like Lon Woodbury!
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Kevin:
Read my post on why power corrupts (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=243795#243795)
It could be more eloquent but i'm pretty tired.
Point is. You start a referral service you will inevitably become what you sought to fight. In this situation.. You can't fight fire with fire. You will spontaneously combust.
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Magnolia Christian Center's Respect and Discipline Camp offered for 30 to 60 day interventions:
http://http://magnoliachristiancenter.net/Respect.htm
Kevin.. how can you possibly suggest this place to anyone?
:o :o :o Holy shit!
Tell us again CCMgirl how different you guys are. :roll: :roll:
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Magnolia Christian Center's Respect and Discipline Camp offered for 30 to 60 day interventions:
http://http://magnoliachristiancenter.net/Respect.htm
Kevin.. how can you possibly suggest this place to anyone?
:o :o :o Holy shit!
Tell us again CCMgirl how different you guys are. :roll: :roll:
Yeah, so???? It's designed to get a teens immediate attention. 30-60 days of having to be there???? BFD!!!!!! You guys always find fault with something when it comes to treatment. Sometimes teens do need a wake up call! Hello????? What is your objection A.B.?
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Yeah, so???? It's designed to get a teens immediate attention. 30-60 days of having to be there???? BFD!!!!!! You guys always find fault with something when it comes to treatment. Sometimes teens do need a wake up call! Hello????? What is your objection A.B.?
This......[/color]
http://www1.nmha.org/children/justjuv/bootcamp.cfm (http://www1.nmha.org/children/justjuv/bootcamp.cfm)
Juvenile Boot Camps
What are juvenile boot camps?
Juvenile boot camps are correctional programs for delinquent youth in a military-style environment. These programs typically emphasize discipline and physical conditioning and were developed as a rigorous alternative to longer terms of confinement in juvenile correctional facilities. Many, but not all, of these programs are followed by a period of probation or some form of aftercare. Boot camps are generally restricted to non-violent or first-time offenders.
Are boot camps effective?
* Boot camps do not reduce recidivism. Numerous studies of adult and juvenile boot camps have shown that graduates do no better in terms of recidivism than offenders who were incarcerated or, in some cases, than those sentenced to regular probation supervision. In fact, some researchers have found that boot camp graduates are more likely to be re-arrested or are re-arrested more quickly than other offenders.
* Boot camps may not be cost effective. Although some boot camps enable jurisdictions to save money because youth serve shorter sentences, others have found that the extra costs of operating boot camps outweigh the benefits. For example, boot camps tend to be more labor intensive and more expensive to operate. If youth are sentenced to a boot camp when they could have been placed in probation or a community-based program, jurisdictions are actually losing money.
* Experts agree that a confrontational approach is not appropriate. Most correctional and military experts agree that a confrontational model, employing tactics of intimidation and humiliation, is counterproductive for most youth in the juvenile justice system. The use of this kind of model has led to disturbing incidents of abuse. For youth of color (who represent the vast majority of the juveniles sentenced to boot camps)-as well as for youth with emotional, behavioral, or learning problems-degrading tactics may be particularly inappropriate and potentially damaging. The bullying style and aggressive interactions that characterize the boot camp environment fail to model the pro-social behavior and development of empathy that these youth really need to learn.
* Positive changes demonstrated while in the program may not last when a youth returns to his community. Many adult and juvenile offenders sentenced to boot camps report that the program is helpful to them and they feel more positive about their futures. It is unclear, however, whether these attitudinal changes persist after youth leave the boot camp, or whether they are related to actual changes in behavior once a youth returns to his community. Without significant therapeutic intervention while in the program, as well as specialized aftercare following release, boot camp programs have been consistently unsuccessful in "rehabilitating" juvenile or adult offenders.
* Boot camps are not a "quick fix." Most boot camps have high drop-out rates (as many as half fail to graduate in some programs), and staff in at least one juvenile program have expressed concern that too many youth lack the maturity and self-control to succeed in a military-style program. After leaving boot camp, youth are not prepared for productive lives in their communities. The Office of Justice Programs of the U.S. Department of Justice has suggested that, for boot camps to be effective, they must incorporate a full range of rehabilitative services and programs, including education, substance abuse treatment, individualized case management, and mental health care. Clearly, the idea of "shock incarceration" as a tough, low-cost alternative to more intensive juvenile justice programming has not been borne out by our 15 years of experience with boot camps across the country.
What is the alternative?
Youth who are involved with the juvenile justice system require an individualized approach that takes their strengths and needs into account. Programs and policies should be family-centered, including the family in all decision making about a child, as well as culturally and developmentally appropriate. Research has shown that small, community-based programs are more effective and less costly than correctional institutions, for the majority of children who come into contact with the juvenile justice system. Rather than removing children from their families and communities, which only increases their difficulties and sense of marginalization, most youth can be managed in their communities while they receive a full range of rehabilitative services, including mental health and substance abuse treatment.
Borque, B., Han, M., & Hill, S. (1996). A National Survey of Aftercare Provisions for Boot Camp Graduates. Washington, DC: National Institute of Justice, U.S. Department of Justice.
Bottcher, J., & Isorena, T. (1995). First-year evaluation of the California Youth Authority Boot Camp. In D. MacKenzie & E. Herbert (Eds.), Correctional Boot Camps: A Tough Intermediate Sanction. Washington, DC: National Institute of Justice, U.S. Department of Justice.
MacKenzie, D., & Souryal, C. (1994). Multi-site Evaluation of Shock Incarceration. Washington, DC: National Institute of Justice, U.S. Department of Justice.
Peters, M., Thomas, D., & Zamberlan, C. (1997). Boot Camps for Juvenile Offenders Program Summary. Washington, DC: Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention, U.S. Department of Justice.
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It's a wake-up call!!! You don't get it do you? What do expect? Goose down comforters, and warm fuzzy slippers?!!! I know what you'll say............but they could die?!!!!! Well, hellooooooo.....they could die from drug overdose, get murdered, have a fatal drunk driving accident, commit suicide, etc. etc. so let me ask you...........what the fuck is the difference?
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My objection is forced incarceration. My objection to this is its already proven that the boot camp formula is a miserable failure.
Moving on..
You're objection is forced incarceration???? Boo-hoo!!!! :cry2: Just shut the hell up! 30-60 days big deal!
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It's a wake-up call!!! You don't get it do you? What do expect? Goose down comforters, and warm fuzzy slippers?!!! I know what you'll say............but they could die?!!!!! Well, hellooooooo.....they could die from drug overdose, get murdered, have a fatal drunk driving accident, commit suicide, etc. etc. so let me ask you...........what the fuck is the difference?
Did you even read the report that the National Institute of Mental Health issued on boot camps quoted and cited above? What is your response?
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It's a wake-up call!!! You don't get it do you? What do expect? Goose down comforters, and warm fuzzy slippers?!!! I know what you'll say............but they could die?!!!!! Well, hellooooooo.....they could die from drug overdose, get murdered, have a fatal drunk driving accident, commit suicide, etc. etc. so let me ask you...........what the fuck is the difference?
You've gotta be kidding! :rofl:
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My objection is forced incarceration. My objection to this is its already proven that the boot camp formula is a miserable failure.
Moving on..
You're objection is forced incarceration???? Boo-hoo!!!! :cry2: Just shut the hell up! 30-60 days big deal!
That's it! CRACK that whip CCM Girl! You know we LOVE it!! :lol:
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deadinsaneorinjail
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How does this happen?
I think it's been explained in another thread, that kids see a system and think they can improve it for the better, but jesus FUCK, this isn't even improvement...
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deadinsaneorinjail
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How does this happen?
I think it's been explained in another thread, that kids see a system and think they can improve it for the better, but jesus FUCK, this isn't even improvement...
Yeah, why not just KILL them and get it over with!! :rofl:
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Magnolia Christian Center's Respect and Discipline Camp offered for 30 to 60 day interventions:
http://http://magnoliachristiancenter.net/Respect.htm
Kevin.. how can you possibly suggest this place to anyone?
:o :o :o Holy shit!
Tell us again CCMgirl how different you guys are. :roll: :roll:
Yeah, so???? It's designed to get a teens immediate attention. 30-60 days of having to be there???? BFD!!!!!! You guys always find fault with something when it comes to treatment. Sometimes teens do need a wake up call! Hello????? What is your objection A.B.?
Ineffective, punitive quackery that would only fuck up a child who needs real help more than they were before, and try to bandage shitty parenting, at a child's expense, at best, defended by saying "big fucking deal" about he term of stay?
WOW!
Chalk up that brilliant scheme to a fucking WWASPS survivor!
Oh, and what Anne Bonney said also stands, I don't feel as though I have to repeat it, so I won't.
Furthermore, how is 1-2 months of humiliation and terror "getting attention" or somehow justified?
We think we need YOUR "immediate attention", can we torture you for two months to get our point accross?
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Yeah, why not just KILL them and get it over with!! :rofl:
Why not? It's considerably more humane.
Parents, you might want to reconsider paying tens of thousands to have your kids abused by professionals when you can simply put a bullet between their eyes yourself. It's quicker, more effective, less fucking sick, and guarantees that they won't come seeking revenge.
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It's a wake-up call!!! You don't get it do you? What do expect? Goose down comforters, and warm fuzzy slippers?!!! I know what you'll say............but they could die?!!!!! Well, hellooooooo.....they could die from drug overdose, get murdered, have a fatal drunk driving accident, commit suicide, etc. etc. so let me ask you...........what the fuck is the difference?
Did you even read the report that the National Institute of Mental Health issued on boot camps quoted and cited above? What is your response?
Do you turn on the TV to watch the news, or read the paper? Kids are dying left and right from everything I mentioned above! Compare TBS, and program deaths compared to teen deaths to all the above. Which one has a higher percentage????
Your response?
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Yeah, why not just KILL them and get it over with!! :rofl:
Why not? It's considerably more humane.
Yep.
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It's a wake-up call!!! You don't get it do you? What do expect? Goose down comforters, and warm fuzzy slippers?!!! I know what you'll say............but they could die?!!!!! Well, hellooooooo.....they could die from drug overdose, get murdered, have a fatal drunk driving accident, commit suicide, etc. etc. so let me ask you...........what the fuck is the difference?
Did you even read the report that the National Institute of Mental Health issued on boot camps quoted and cited above? What is your response?
Do you turn on the TV to watch the news, or read the paper? Kids are dying left and right from everything I mentioned above! Compare TBS, and program deaths compared to teen deaths to all the above. Which one has a higher percentage????
Your response?
[sigh]My response is that you've been drinking long and hard from the Kool Aid my dear.
Actually, it's being covered right now in this thread. Probably start a few pages back from this...
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t= ... &start=270 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=20495&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=270)
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Magnolia Christian Center's Respect and Discipline Camp offered for 30 to 60 day interventions:
http://http://magnoliachristiancenter.net/Respect.htm
Kevin.. how can you possibly suggest this place to anyone?
:o :o :o Holy shit!
Tell us again CCMgirl how different you guys are. :roll: :roll:
Yeah, so???? It's designed to get a teens immediate attention. 30-60 days of having to be there???? BFD!!!!!! You guys always find fault with something when it comes to treatment. Sometimes teens do need a wake up call! Hello????? What is your objection A.B.?
Ineffective, punitive quackery that would only fuck up a child who needs real help more than they were before, and try to bandage shitty parenting, at a child's expense, at best, defended by saying "big fucking deal" about he term of stay?
WOW!
Chalk up that brilliant scheme to a fucking WWASPS survivor!
Oh, and what Anne Bonney said also stands, I don't feel as though I have to repeat it, so I won't.
Furthermore, how is 1-2 months of humiliation and terror "getting attention" or somehow justified?
We think we need YOUR "immediate attention", can we torture you for two months to get our point accross?
Torture me for two months??? You've been doing it here for the last fricken year?!!! You mean in person??? Naw, I don't think so LOL! Not by you atleast!
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It's a wake-up call!!! You don't get it do you? What do expect? Goose down comforters, and warm fuzzy slippers?!!! I know what you'll say............but they could die?!!!!! Well, hellooooooo.....they could die from drug overdose, get murdered, have a fatal drunk driving accident, commit suicide, etc. etc. so let me ask you...........what the fuck is the difference?
Did you even read the report that the National Institute of Mental Health issued on boot camps quoted and cited above? What is your response?
Do you turn on the TV to watch the news, or read the paper? Kids are dying left and right from everything I mentioned above! Compare TBS, and program deaths compared to teen deaths to all the above. Which one has a higher percentage????
Your response?
Program rates are actually higher.
So few people in programs vs people on the roads, etc...
The amount annually might be lower but the RATE of deaths for a given population size will be higher.
Funny huh...
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Magnolia Christian Center's Respect and Discipline Camp offered for 30 to 60 day interventions:
http://http://magnoliachristiancenter.net/Respect.htm
Kevin.. how can you possibly suggest this place to anyone?
:o :o :o Holy shit!
Tell us again CCMgirl how different you guys are. :roll: :roll:
Yeah, so???? It's designed to get a teens immediate attention. 30-60 days of having to be there???? BFD!!!!!! You guys always find fault with something when it comes to treatment. Sometimes teens do need a wake up call! Hello????? What is your objection A.B.?
Ineffective, punitive quackery that would only fuck up a child who needs real help more than they were before, and try to bandage shitty parenting, at a child's expense, at best, defended by saying "big fucking deal" about he term of stay?
WOW!
Chalk up that brilliant scheme to a fucking WWASPS survivor!
Oh, and what Anne Bonney said also stands, I don't feel as though I have to repeat it, so I won't.
Furthermore, how is 1-2 months of humiliation and terror "getting attention" or somehow justified?
We think we need YOUR "immediate attention", can we torture you for two months to get our point accross?
Torture me for two months??? You've been doing it here for the last fricken year?!!! You mean in person??? Naw, I don't think so LOL! Not by you atleast!
I've tortured children for a year, huh? what?
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Do you turn on the TV to watch the news, or read the paper? Kids are dying left and right from everything I mentioned above! Compare TBS, and program deaths compared to teen deaths to all the above. Which one has a higher percentage????
Your response?
Oh, and .......
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Torture me for two months??? You've been doing it here for the last fricken year?!!! You mean in person??? Naw, I don't think so LOL! Not by you atleast!
Maybe your husband would be kind enough to cuff your hands behind your back for a little while? :rofl:
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Funny how she thinks its ok for a child to be tortured for months to change their behavior, but not hers...
See, logic has to go both ways, double standards do not apply in real life.
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Torture me for two months??? You've been doing it here for the last fricken year?!!! You mean in person??? Naw, I don't think so LOL! Not by you atleast!
Maybe your husband would be kind enough to cuff your hands behind your back for a little while? :rofl:
You're more then welcome to have your own fantasies.
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Keep on, keepin on, TSW!!!!
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I'll be starting a thread on Magnolia Criminal Center down in my own forum later. I've a few people who have expressed interest at taking a closer look at the place. Sad that an intelligent young man like Kevin could have tied his name and reputation to a place that is looking much like a standard industry duckfarm.
quack quack honk honk same old shit new face on it.
That's nice, who cares. :roll:
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If in five years a kid 18 or 19 walks up to me and asks me why I told their parent they needed to be sent away.. what answer good enough could I give them? Heres a kid I never met, never saw their face or spoke with, and I recommended their parent send them away? I couldn't face that kid, and that's why I would never do it. What would you say to that kid?
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If in five years a kid 18 or 19 walks up to me and asks me why I told their parent they needed to be sent away.. what answer good enough could I give them? Heres a kid I never met, never saw their face or spoke with, and I recommended their parent send them away? I couldn't face that kid, and that's why I would never do it. What would you say to that kid?
Well, whoever that kid was, I wouldn't run, and hide!!! I'd have their file on hand because I would keep those for atleast 10 years. I'd open up the file, show them my notes, and tell them why I recommended what I did. If they had a problem with it, I would tell them to go talk with their parents. That's why I would talk to both parent, and teen. So would my psychiatrist on staff. Next?
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Are you starting a referal company or something, why do you assume I am directing these concerns at you? You have a psychiatrist on staff... do you have a referal company or something:?
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I'd open up the file, show them my notes, and tell them why I recommended what I did.
You'd get to about word three before the knife entered your eyeball to come out the back of your head.
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It's a wake-up call!!! You don't get it do you? What do expect? Goose down comforters, and warm fuzzy slippers?!!! I know what you'll say............but they could die?!!!!! Well, hellooooooo.....they could die from drug overdose, get murdered, have a fatal drunk driving accident, commit suicide, etc. etc. so let me ask you...........what the fuck is the difference?
Did you even read the report that the National Institute of Mental Health issued on boot camps quoted and cited above? What is your response?
I'd still like to get an answer to this CCMG.
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my response, the same as last time, you are a fucking, insentive, self-centered bitch.
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my response, the same as last time, you are a fucking, insentive, self-centered bitch.
That may well be true but doesn't answer the question. ::bangin:: ::bwahaha:: Thanks for playing though. :roll:
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sorry AB--the insensitive bitch remark was for CCM girl.
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sorry AB--the insensitive bitch remark was for CCM girl.
::bwahaha::
No worries.
AB
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Well, whoever that kid was, I wouldn't run, and hide!!! I'd have their file on hand because I would keep those for atleast 10 years. I'd open up the file, show them my notes, and tell them why I recommended what I did. If they had a problem with it, I would tell them to go talk with their parents. That's why I would talk to both parent, and teen. So would my psychiatrist on staff. Next?
You are maybe qualified to be that psychiatrists secretary at most, and you think they are going to work for you? :rofl:
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Absolutely, without a doubt.
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Absolutely, without a doubt.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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Kind of like the lawyer that Sue had 'on staff'. :rofl:
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What this thread proves is that CCM still can not justify what she supports, same for Kevin...
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Kind of like the lawyer that Sue had 'on staff'. :rofl:
Ya, just like that! NOT!!!!!! :nworthy:
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What this thread proves is that CCM still can not justify what she supports, same for Kevin...
Blah, blah, blah.
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So you are going to refer kids for money then?
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So you are going to refer kids for money then?
No, so don't worry you'll still get yours!
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So you are going to refer kids for money then?
No, so don't worry you'll still get yours!
Why not? If its a noble cause and helping kids and all that, why arent you doing it?
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Silence. Hmm. Ok, how 'bout this one.
http://www.nih.gov/news/pr/oct2004/od-15.htm (http://www.nih.gov/news/pr/oct2004/od-15.htm)
Panel Finds that Scare Tactics for Violence Prevention are Harmful
Good news is that positive approaches show promise
Bethesda, Maryland ? Programs that rely on ?scare tactics? to prevent children and adolescents from engaging in violent behavior are not only ineffective, but may actually make the problem worse, according to an independent state-of-the-science panel convened this week by the National Institutes of Health (NIH). The panel, charged with assessing the available evidence on preventing violence and other health-risking behaviors in adolescents, announced today its assessment of the current research.
The panel found that group detention centers, boot camps, and other ?get tough? programs often exacerbate problems by grouping young people with delinquent tendencies, where the more sophisticated instruct the more naïve. Similarly, the practice of transferring juveniles to the adult judicial system can be counterproductive, resulting in greater violence among incarcerated youth.
?The good news is that a number of intervention programs have been demonstrated to be effective through randomized controlled trials,? explained Dr. Robert L. Johnson, Chair of the Department of Pediatrics at the University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey, who chaired the state-of-the-science panel. ?We were pleased to find several programs that work, and we hope that communities will adopt them and continue to develop other interventions that incorporate the features common to successful programs.?
The panel highlighted two programs that are clearly effective in reducing arrests and out-of-home placements: Functional Family Therapy, and Multisystemic Therapy. Among the important characteristics that these programs have in common are a focus on developing social competency skills, a long-term approach, and family involvement.
The panel also identified strengths and weaknesses in the field of violence prevention research, and made a number of recommendations to shape future efforts. Among these, the panel advocated a national population-based adolescent violence registry, and greater emphasis on economic research into the cost-effectiveness of intervention to prevent violence.
The panel released its findings in a public session this morning, following two days of expert presentations and panel deliberations. The full text of the panel's draft statement will be available late today at http://consensus.nih.gov (http://consensus.nih.gov). The final version will be available at the same Web address in three to four weeks. Statements from past conferences and additional information about the NIH Consensus Development Program are also available at the Web site, or by calling 1-888-644-2667.
The panel is independent and its report is not a policy statement of the NIH or the Federal Government. The NIH Consensus Development Program, of which this conference is a part, was established in 1977 as a mechanism to judge controversial topics in medicine and public health in an unbiased, impartial manner. NIH has conducted 119 consensus development conferences, and 23 state-of-the-science (formerly "technology assessment") conferences, addressing a wide range of issues.
The conference was sponsored by the Office of Medical Applications of Research and the National Institute of Mental Health, of the NIH. Cosponsors included the Office of Behavioral and Social Sciences Research, the National Institute of Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism, the National Institute of Child Health and Human Development, the National Institute on Drug Abuse, National Institute of Nursing Research, the National Library of Medicine, the Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration, the U.S. Department of Education, and the U.S. Department of Justice.
The 13-member panel included practitioners and researchers in community and family medicine, pediatrics, nursing, psychiatry, behavioral health, economics, juvenile justice, outcomes research, and a public representative. The panel reviewed an extensive collection of scientific literature related to youth violence prevention, including a systematic literature review prepared by the Southern California Evidence-Based Practice Center, under contract with the Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality. A summary of the Evidence Report on Preventing Violence and Related Health-Risking Social Behaviors in Adolescents is available at http://www.ahrq.gov/clinic/epcsums/adolvisum.htm (http://www.ahrq.gov/clinic/epcsums/adolvisum.htm).
The archived webcast of the conference sessions will be available shortly at http://consensus.nih.gov/ (http://consensus.nih.gov/).
Or this one.....
http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:5T ... =firefox-a (http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:5TyvqirL6foJ:www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/print/ency/article/001518.htm+NIH+teen+boot+camp&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=us&client=firefox-a)
Treatment
Treatment options for adolescents with depression are similar to those for depressed adults, and include psychotherapy and antidepressant medications (see major depression for a review of treatments and self-care). However, one major antidepressant, Paxil, now has a warning NOT to be given to children under 18.
Family therapy may be helpful if family conflict is contributing to the depression. Support from family or teachers to help with school problems may also be needed. Occasionally, hospitalization in a psychiatric unit may be required for individuals with severe depression, or if they are at risk of suicide.
Because of the behavior problems that often co-exist with adolescent depression, many parents are tempted to send their child to a "boot camp", "wilderness program", or "emotional growth school."
These programs often use non-medical staff, confrontational therapies, and harsh punishments. There is no scientific evidence to support such programs. In fact, there is a growing body of research which suggests that they can actually harm sensitive teens with depression.
Depressed teens who act out may also become involved with the criminal justice system. Parents are often advised not to intervene, but to "let them experience consequences."
Unfortunately, this can also harm teens through exposure to more deviant peers and reduction in educational opportunities. A better solution is to get the best possible legal advice and search for treatment on your own, which gives parents more control over techniques used and options.
Though a large percentage of teens in the criminal justice system have mental disorders like depression, few juvenile prisons, "boot camps" or other "alternative to prison" programs provide adequate treatment.
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ccm's lack of maturity is showing, you silly silly girl.
but remember, when she has a party, she invites everyone. so guess we are all included!
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ccm's lack of maturity is showing, you silly silly girl.
but remember, when she has a party, she invites everyone. so guess we are all included!
Of course!!! A party isn't a party until someone gets pushed into the pool!!!!!!!! Come on over LOL!
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You should all feel so proud of yourself, just like a gang does after they jump someone.
TSW, you know very well why I don't post here. I don't want to be the target for misplaced hatred of teen treatment facilities for your all knowing "fornits crew". I am happy to be part of the healing process for all of you who've been hurt, because you seem to feel better about yourselves once you're able to cuss out and berate people who you feel perpetuate motives similar to the ones comparable to the programs you were once a part of. Keep believing I'm your enemy, it's not going to go anywhere, maybe someone will manage to find this information but it certainly doesn't compare to the number of families I've personally saved from WWASP schools.
As far as you digging in deeper and deeper into my schools, I'm happy to have you're help. In regards to the discipline camp at MCC, it has been discontinued due to efforts on my part. It used to be for the hardcore gangster thugs that needed some good solid discipline, nothing further. If that's all you've got then I feel confident I'll succeed with my network.
I am only in the preliminary stages of the development of my referral system. I've utilized much of the information from the ASTART guidelines to be used in the determination of programs which may many would consider safer than WWASP (or related) programs. I am re-emphasizing that I have changed my stance outright to become first and foremost an advocate for localized treatment and home-based care, and if parents don't have other options, then I will proceed to do my best to find a school for that family.
To begin, my programs will not be capable of maintaining their membership to my network should they be found to be operating outside of my agreement terms. This is not a fool proof plan, but it's the best I am capable of, and there is still little else in place to prevent children from ending up in poorly managed facilities.
That is my goal, to stop supporting WWASP's repetitive little mind control game, and send children away from facilities known to be abusive. I understand that no level of reasoning is going to sway you from your views (TSW), you probably understand the same of me. We are both highly opinionated and intelligent people, that much we do know, and I am offering you the chance to bring anyone you want to my home court and publicly and decisively defend your thoughts.
I am not asking for a "fight". I want a civil, well-thought out discussion that consists of more than "she likes to lick her horse's cunt" and "you are a fucking, insentive, self-centered bitch." Many of the people in these forums (fornits) have a lack of public humility and quite frankly, as many parents have pointed out, this is starting to "turn off" people from reading valuable information. I came here to advertise for antiwwasp and received criticism on things that weren't even related. If I wanted to get harassed on fornits about TeensHelp i would have advertised that url, not http://www.antiwwasp.com (http://www.antiwwasp.com). I asked for help in pursuing other options, I received none, even at a time when teenshelp had not even been created yet.
This constant conflict and open war will fuel more pain and suffering than it's worth. You may feel that taunting CCMgirl is justified for her support for me, but don't expect your statements to hold credibility with others when you so freely judge people who stand behind a cause they believe may help people. For god's sake she said that some programs were good and all of a sudden everyone placed her on the TeensHelp bandwagon. She doesn't support me, she doesn't work for me, she doesn't send people to me or have any relationship with me besides her offering an occasional helpful comment. She said that if she could or had the time she would be involved with such a practice. Other than that I don't understand how you form allegations with no detail or credible information to support your theories about CCMgirl's involvement with me or my company?
Fornits could be such a productive place if there were people willing to put aside childish impulses to create negative conflicts and disputes which really hold no merit or value.
I am going to heed the advice of whatever anon posted awhile ago not to visit here if the information that I found made me want to puke. The urge to vomit is definitely present when I read posts where students hurt by abusive programs belittle people and sift through details of current referral services and programs searching for anything to confirm your misguided attempts to understand the industry. Just because you were hurt in a program, that doesn't mean that every program is bad. What are you thinking? If you respond to this with "no, what are you thinking kev?" - you are far too predictable.
TSW you called me out but I won't continue to "battle" you here. If it's going to be done it will be on my terms in my forum in the new subforum you seem to know so much about.
All concerned parties are encouraged to debate with me and the antiwwasp members freely and openly. Vulgarity and harrassment will not be tolerated like here and fornits and users posting should direct their posts towards topics which discuss change and provide constructive criticism or helpful feedback on what people should be doing to change the industry.
The new subforums have been specifically created for the purpose of fueling progressive discussions aimed at improving the teen help industry, or destroying it, however you see fit. Please visit us at www.nu-industry.com/forum/ (http://www.nu-industry.com/forum/) and register for an account, all accounts are administrator approved so please be patient if you do decide to create an account.
TSW - You have to understand I've been attacked, so yes, naturally I'm on the defensive, I'd like to change our stance towards each other to one of mutual disagreement so that we are not "fighting" and can get through this whilst making a difference.
You may think I'm a sellout, I think I'm providing a positive service based upon the opinions of professionals (this is new so I understand your previous beefs with me about lack of proper regulation and you probably will still oppose my opinion anyway).
I want to apologize for approaching the creation of my network in an inappropriate manner and I am sorry to all who I promised so much to, without researching enough credible information. I have compiled the preliminary set of guidelines for admission to the network which must be signed and dated by the director or admissions director of each school. Such guidelines will be enforced by means of random evaluations by myself at which time I may visit a school or talk with any student I choose at any time without staff intervention. I am also free to contact current students and parents of the program at any time I see fit. Though many see my guidelines as a futile attempt at regulation, I can confidently and proudly say I am doing more than I see going on here.
Magnolia Christian Center is not a bad school. Yes I have a staff member of this school who is actively participating in the discussions at antiwwasp because he feels passionate about keeping schools safe and regulated and is doing everything in his power to re-position his school to be in accordance with these new guidelines I've set forth. He has encouraged me on numerous occasions to visit with his staff and students freely to allow me a clear and unobstructed view of their program. No students have been admitted at this time for all those concerned. My guidelines are not fully developed and as such the service would be incomplete, therefore it would be irresponsible to be referring at this time. (i can almost see the posts forming already about how i shouldn't be referring at any time... again... predictability). To be clear, I was promoting two programs before the guidelines were complete, but I have halted the website while I await to have the proper signed agreements returned to me.
ASTART's guidelines were considered by myself to be almost too much for any school to handle. I believe this was discussed before in this forum. I don't think that any school is capable of attaining everything on that list so I recompiled the majority of them, at least 80% of these items into a new list to be used for decisions regarding the admission of a school to the network. This is not the sole basis for determination of acceptance into the network.
I don't post at fornits unless I feel the situation warrants it because of the lack of maturity, but if you do find the need to contact me or anyone from my organization feel free to do at http://www.nu-industry.com/forum (http://www.nu-industry.com/forum).
To re-iterate, I won't respond to anyone here, if you have something to say to me be brave and face an entire group of people who feel the same way I do, instead of having the advantage in every conversation simply through strength in numbers.
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"Don't let them break your spirit, can't you see they want control!!!"
:question:
Why do you still bother having that as your signature?
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Kevin,
You have still done everything except explain what a good program is, and why. You throw up chaff, obfuscate, and go on about other things... but never answer that.
You also have not justified unconsentual 'treatment' and how a lot of the methodologies used have been since debunked as ineffective or harmful by actual professionals...
...and you do realize you yourself are not a professional at all, right?
What the hell gives you the right or the balls to act like you are in any position to go and send kids off to programs or say one is good when another is not?
This is not being stood up before a group, this is how the hell can you justify hurting children.
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"Don't let them break your spirit, can't you see they want control!!!"
:question:
Why do you still bother having that as your signature?
Because it applies to you too. Actually, a lot of you here who continue to attack me, and tell me how wrong I am. You won't get me to change the way I feel. No matter how hard you try to cram it down my throat. Get it, got it, good!!!
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(http://http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/77/LadyfromS.JPG)
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I'm not attacking you.
I'm asking how you are justifying the nonconsentual abduction, confinement, and abuse/forced quack treatment of children.
If you think that is an attack, then you need to grow the hell up and realize I can attack what you say, your opinions, but not yourself.
I also find it supremely ironic that you would give us that whine-line considering how it is for a child in a program :roll: which you should know all too well.
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http://www.nih.gov/news/pr/oct2004/od-15.htm[/url]
Panel Finds that Scare Tactics for Violence Prevention are Harmful
Good news is that positive approaches show promise
Bethesda, Maryland ? Programs that rely on ?scare tactics? to prevent children and adolescents from engaging in violent behavior are not only ineffective, but may actually make the problem worse, according to an independent state-of-the-science panel convened this week by the National Institutes of Health (NIH). The panel, charged with assessing the available evidence on preventing violence and other health-risking behaviors in adolescents, announced today its assessment of the current research.
The panel found that group detention centers, boot camps, and other ?get tough? programs often exacerbate problems by grouping young people with delinquent tendencies, where the more sophisticated instruct the more naïve. Similarly, the practice of transferring juveniles to the adult judicial system can be counterproductive, resulting in greater violence among incarcerated youth.
?The good news is that a number of intervention programs have been demonstrated to be effective through randomized controlled trials,? explained Dr. Robert L. Johnson, Chair of the Department of Pediatrics at the University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey, who chaired the state-of-the-science panel. ?We were pleased to find several programs that work, and we hope that communities will adopt them and continue to develop other interventions that incorporate the features common to successful programs.?
The panel highlighted two programs that are clearly effective in reducing arrests and out-of-home placements: Functional Family Therapy, and Multisystemic Therapy. Among the important characteristics that these programs have in common are a focus on developing social competency skills, a long-term approach, and family involvement.
The panel also identified strengths and weaknesses in the field of violence prevention research, and made a number of recommendations to shape future efforts. Among these, the panel advocated a national population-based adolescent violence registry, and greater emphasis on economic research into the cost-effectiveness of intervention to prevent violence.
The panel released its findings in a public session this morning, following two days of expert presentations and panel deliberations. The full text of the panel's draft statement will be available late today at http://consensus.nih.gov (http://consensus.nih.gov). The final version will be available at the same Web address in three to four weeks. Statements from past conferences and additional information about the NIH Consensus Development Program are also available at the Web site, or by calling 1-888-644-2667.
The panel is independent and its report is not a policy statement of the NIH or the Federal Government. The NIH Consensus Development Program, of which this conference is a part, was established in 1977 as a mechanism to judge controversial topics in medicine and public health in an unbiased, impartial manner. NIH has conducted 119 consensus development conferences, and 23 state-of-the-science (formerly "technology assessment") conferences, addressing a wide range of issues.
The conference was sponsored by the Office of Medical Applications of Research and the National Institute of Mental Health, of the NIH. Cosponsors included the Office of Behavioral and Social Sciences Research, the National Institute of Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism, the National Institute of Child Health and Human Development, the National Institute on Drug Abuse, National Institute of Nursing Research, the National Library of Medicine, the Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration, the U.S. Department of Education, and the U.S. Department of Justice.
The 13-member panel included practitioners and researchers in community and family medicine, pediatrics, nursing, psychiatry, behavioral health, economics, juvenile justice, outcomes research, and a public representative. The panel reviewed an extensive collection of scientific literature related to youth violence prevention, including a systematic literature review prepared by the Southern California Evidence-Based Practice Center, under contract with the Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality. A summary of the Evidence Report on Preventing Violence and Related Health-Risking Social Behaviors in Adolescents is available at http://www.ahrq.gov/clinic/epcsums/adolvisum.htm (http://www.ahrq.gov/clinic/epcsums/adolvisum.htm).
The archived webcast of the conference sessions will be available shortly at http://consensus.nih.gov/ (http://consensus.nih.gov/).
Or this one.....
http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:5T ... =firefox-a (http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:5TyvqirL6foJ:www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/print/ency/article/001518.htm+NIH+teen+boot+camp&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=us&client=firefox-a)
Treatment
Treatment options for adolescents with depression are similar to those for depressed adults, and include psychotherapy and antidepressant medications (see major depression for a review of treatments and self-care). However, one major antidepressant, Paxil, now has a warning NOT to be given to children under 18.
Family therapy may be helpful if family conflict is contributing to the depression. Support from family or teachers to help with school problems may also be needed. Occasionally, hospitalization in a psychiatric unit may be required for individuals with severe depression, or if they are at risk of suicide.
Because of the behavior problems that often co-exist with adolescent depression, many parents are tempted to send their child to a "boot camp", "wilderness program", or "emotional growth school."
These programs often use non-medical staff, confrontational therapies, and harsh punishments. There is no scientific evidence to support such programs. In fact, there is a growing body of research which suggests that they can actually harm sensitive teens with depression.
Depressed teens who act out may also become involved with the criminal justice system. Parents are often advised not to intervene, but to "let them experience consequences."
Unfortunately, this can also harm teens through exposure to more deviant peers and reduction in educational opportunities. A better solution is to get the best possible legal advice and search for treatment on your own, which gives parents more control over techniques used and options.
Though a large percentage of teens in the criminal justice system have mental disorders like depression, few juvenile prisons, "boot camps" or other "alternative to prison" programs provide adequate treatment.[/quote]
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You won't get me to change the way I feel. No matter how hard you try to cram it down my throat.
Getting a bit graphic here... ((LOL))
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So you are going to refer kids for money then?
No, so don't worry you'll still get yours!
Why not? If its a noble cause and helping kids and all that, why arent you doing it?
:question: :question:
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I'm not attacking you.
I'm asking how you are justifying the nonconsentual abduction, confinement, and abuse/forced quack treatment of children.
If you think that is an attack, then I want you to grow the hell up and realize I can attack what you say, your opinions, but not yourself.
I also find it supremely ironic that you would give us that whine-line considering how it is for a child in a program :roll: which you should know all too well.
I justify it because teens don't know everything. That's why. I don't think it's an attack, just a lame ass arguement.
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TSW you called me out but I won't continue to "battle" you here. If it's going to be done it will be on my terms in my forum in the new subforum you seem to know so much about.
All concerned parties are encouraged to debate with me and the antiwwasp members freely and openly. Vulgarity and harrassment will not be tolerated like here and fornits and users posting should direct their posts towards topics which discuss change and provide constructive criticism or helpful feedback on what people should be doing to change the industry.
Your terms, your forum. :roll: How is it that others are capable of ignoring the personal attacks and just ask and answer questions and you can't? I haven't slammed you, I'm not anonymous and I'm not the only one. "The Boys" can get a bit much sometimes, they piss me off on a regular basis, but somehow we all seem to be able to coexist without groundrules and censorship.
CCMG will respond to posts all around mine that are personal attacks on her and go tit for tat with them, but she'll flat ignore my questions on her thoughts about those studies on bootcamps. Boo hoo guys. Discuss or don't, but quit being such babies about it.
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You won't get me to change the way I feel. No matter how hard you try to cram it down my throat.
Getting a bit graphic here... ((LOL))
More then likely you don't have it to cram.
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I justify it because teens don't know everything. That's why.
I agree- kids don't deserve no goddamn rights, cuz they ain't no better than a bunch of fuckin NIGGERS! If mine ever try to "assert their rights" I'm gonna drag 'em out to the woodshed and tear up their uppity little asses!
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Repeat :roll:
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You won't get me to change the way I feel. No matter how hard you try to cram it down my throat.
Getting a bit graphic here... ((LOL))
More then likely you don't have it to cram.
Grasshoppers have (proportionately) large penises, it's a fact! :rofl:
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Cite your sources!!!
:rofl:
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You mean...right here..? :oops:
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:rofl: :rofl:
Nah, you can PM it to me.
::bwahaha::
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Ok, pants are still zipped.. :rofl:
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Ill send you my teen and you can give them a wake up call, okay???
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Ill send you my teen and you can give them a wake up call, okay???
Yes, CCM Girl can cram one down their throats... :lol:
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TSW you called me out but I won't continue to "battle" you here. If it's going to be done it will be on my terms in my forum in the new subforum you seem to know so much about.
All concerned parties are encouraged to debate with me and the antiwwasp members freely and openly. Vulgarity and harrassment will not be tolerated like here and fornits and users posting should direct their posts towards topics which discuss change and provide constructive criticism or helpful feedback on what people should be doing to change the industry.
Your terms, your forum. :roll: How is it that others are capable of ignoring the personal attacks and just ask and answer questions and you can't? I haven't slammed you, I'm not anonymous and I'm not the only one. "The Boys" can get a bit much sometimes, they piss me off on a regular basis, but somehow we all seem to be able to coexist without groundrules and censorship.
CCMG will respond to posts all around mine that are personal attacks on her and go tit for tat with them, but she'll flat ignore my questions on her thoughts about those studies on bootcamps. Boo hoo guys. Discuss or don't, but quit being such babies about it.
And as crass :P as they can be at times, at least with the guys they actually RESPOND to your questions and have FACTS to back up what they say. Ya gotta give 'em that.
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So you are going to refer kids for money then?
No, so don't worry you'll still get yours!
Why not? If its a noble cause and helping kids and all that, why arent you doing it?
:question: :question:
:question:
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Kevin: don't you think you should have revealed that this EMPLOYEE of the school you are planning to refer to, MAGNOLIA who is registered and posting on Anti-WWASP is actually a former WWASP employee, too.
That does give some insight, you know?
What WWASP program did this Judge Roybean work for?
What was his position at the WWASP facility?
How long did he work there, and when?
Come on, Kev.
You are planning on "selling kids" to some bootcamp joint in Mississippi being run by a former WWASP person?
Judge Roybean posted on Anti-WWASP on December 31, 2006 and on January 27, 2007 talking about his former work at WWASP.
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I'm not attacking you.
I'm asking how you are justifying the nonconsentual abduction, confinement, and abuse/forced quack treatment of children.
If you think that is an attack, then I want you to grow the hell up and realize I can attack what you say, your opinions, but not yourself.
I also find it supremely ironic that you would give us that whine-line considering how it is for a child in a program :roll: which you should know all too well.
I justify it because teens don't know everything. That's why. I don't think it's an attack, just a lame ass argument.
So it is okay to nonconsensually abduct, hold captive (and incommunicado) a teenager, LGAT/brainwash/torment them for 30-60 days to several months to over a year, just as long as its not WWASPS, because "teens don't know everything".
So, because they don't know everything, non-consented to ineffective QUACK treatment can be forced on them?
WOW.
Give it up to CCM for making the fastest 180* from program-survivor to programmie ever.
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I just wanted to be in the middle somewhere here. I think that there are times when teens need to get help. I believe that there are safe places that make a possitive difference in kids lives. I don't believe that all TBS's, are all bad, evil, or abusive. But, no!!!!!!! I had to be 100% on board with you guys saying that any kind of treatment especially when forced on teenagers is wrong, and cruel!
Well, I don't feel that way. So, whatever! But, that doesn't mean I am a programmie?!! That doesn't mean I need to set down the fricken kool-aid!!!! Geez, what's next? If your 5 year old doesn't want to go to public school to start kindergarten, oh fuck it, let them just stay home! God forbid we force anything on anybody LOL!!!!
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:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
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TSW Wrote:
These types of places simply have to low of a success rate and to high of a cost per diem rate to be justified. Setting aside the numbers I just don't find it in me to subject a person to that sort of treatment.
OK, let me chime in here.
Bootcamps are bad. No need to discuss or "pull data" like The Who, as it's all been done scientifically already. It's an axiomatic premise at this point.
That being said, I was a victim of the very first year class of "bootcampers" in New York. This was billed as a way to "rehabilitate" and to keep people "out of the prison system" even though the reality was that the bootcamps were actually part of the prison system.
Let me tell you from first hand experience. Abuse is rampant. Neglect is omnipresent. I and my platoon mates suffered incredible mental and physical abuse (beatings, forced stress positions, forced labor to exhaustion - 16 hour days fo hard labor every single day - etc, etc) all condoned by and implemeted by the state for our "own good."
Well, what's happened since then? Over 80% of people who finished bootcamp recidivated immediately (less that 6 months back in the streets), several of my platoon mates took their own lives and, of the 42 people I went in with I and only one other guy managed to avoid death or lengthy prison sentences. Two of forty-two "made it"!
Studies have shown that bootcamps increase criminal behavior and are totally ineffective in terms of treatment or rehabilitation.
The end result? After the completion of several longitudinal studies (that the TeenHurt industry refuses to alow to be performed on their programs, BTW) all bootcamp programs were closed!
Listen, folks, it ain't that deep. Any program that forces participation (read "coercion") can not and will not provide positive results for the overwhelming majority of those subjected to it.[/b]
There's not much else to say. Real scientists have proven it can not and does not have beneficial effect for subjects.
Can't you people get it through your thick fucking skulls that your brand of "help" HURTS?[/b]
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I just wanted to be in the middle somewhere here. I think that there are times when teens need to get help. I believe that there are safe places that make a possitive difference in kids lives. I don't believe that all TBS's, are all bad, evil, or abusive. But, no!!!!!!! I had to be 100% on board with you guys saying that any kind of treatment especially when forced on teenagers is wrong, and cruel!
Well, I don't feel that way. So, whatever! But, that doesn't mean I am a programmie?!! That doesn't mean I need to set down the fricken kool-aid!!!! Geez, what's next? If your 5 year old doesn't want to go to public school to start kindergarten, oh fuck it, let them just stay home! God forbid we force anything on anybody LOL!!!!
Laws & children's rights, CCM- that's what all of this boils down to. TBS's violate laws and the rights of children.
Legally children must attend school, so we send them there unless they're homeschooled.
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I just wanted to be in the middle somewhere here. I think that there are times when teens need to get help. I believe that there are safe places that make a possitive difference in kids lives. I don't believe that all TBS's, are all bad, evil, or abusive. But, no!!!!!!! I had to be 100% on board with you guys saying that any kind of treatment especially when forced on teenagers is wrong, and cruel!
Well, I don't feel that way. So, whatever! But, that doesn't mean I am a programmie?!! That doesn't mean I need to set down the fricken kool-aid!!!! Geez, what's next? If your 5 year old doesn't want to go to public school to start kindergarten, oh fuck it, let them just stay home! God forbid we force anything on anybody LOL!!!!
So you're trying to find a middle ground, without actually finding any evidence to support your middle ground existing?
Then you use a strawman centered around compulsory public education (when private school and home schooling exist as alternatives :rofl: ) to justify programs?
PUHLEEZE.
Treatment, good, programming, bad.
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CCM is you want to play therapist go get a 4 year psychology degree. Then get your masters. Then internet for a few years with troubled teens at various psychiatric facilities. Then go get your doctorate in psyhchology and then you MIGHT be qualified to diagnosis and treat kids and give their parents advice.
Until you are qualified, what you are doing is both unethical and quite possibly illegal.
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I just wanted to be in the middle somewhere here. I think that there are times when teens need to get help. I believe that there are safe places that make a possitive difference in kids lives. I don't believe that all TBS's, are all bad, evil, or abusive. But, no!!!!!!! I had to be 100% on board with you guys saying that any kind of treatment especially when forced on teenagers is wrong, and cruel!
Well, I don't feel that way. So, whatever! But, that doesn't mean I am a programmie?!! That doesn't mean I need to set down the fricken kool-aid!!!! Geez, what's next? If your 5 year old doesn't want to go to public school to start kindergarten, oh fuck it, let them just stay home! God forbid we force anything on anybody LOL!!!!
Think ya might get around to giving us your thoughts on the NIH and NMHA statements about boot camps?
http://consensus.nih.gov/2004/2004Youth ... 23html.htm (http://consensus.nih.gov/2004/2004YouthViolencePreventionSOS023html.htm)
http://www1.nmha.org/children/justjuv/bootcamp.cfm (http://www1.nmha.org/children/justjuv/bootcamp.cfm)
After all, you asked what my problem was with the boot camp Anti WWASP is recommending. I answered. I'd like you to do the same now.
Magnolia Christian Center's Respect and Discipline Camp offered for 30 to 60 day interventions:
http://http://magnoliachristiancenter.net/Respect.htm
Kevin.. how can you possibly suggest this place to anyone?
:o :o :o Holy shit!
Tell us again CCMgirl how different you guys are. :roll: :roll:
Yeah, so???? It's designed to get a teens immediate attention. 30-60 days of having to be there???? BFD!!!!!! You guys always find fault with something when it comes to treatment. Sometimes teens do need a wake up call! Hello????? What is your objection A.B.?
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CCM, it's either duckfarming program and ed-con style, or it is actual therapy without abuse or coercion.
There isn't a middle ground between those two.
Its like if something works or not. It either does or it doesn't!
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I just wanted to be in the middle somewhere here. I think that there are times when teens need to get help. I believe that there are safe places that make a possitive difference in kids lives. I don't believe that all TBS's, are all bad, evil, or abusive. But, no!!!!!!! I had to be 100% on board with you guys saying that any kind of treatment especially when forced on teenagers is wrong, and cruel!
Well, I don't feel that way. So, whatever! But, that doesn't mean I am a programmie?!! That doesn't mean I need to set down the fricken kool-aid!!!! Geez, what's next? If your 5 year old doesn't want to go to public school to start kindergarten, oh fuck it, let them just stay home! God forbid we force anything on anybody LOL!!!!
Laws & children's rights, CCM- that's what all of this boils down to. TBS's violate laws and the rights of children.
Legally children must attend school, so we send them there unless they're homeschooled.
::nod::
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This is grotesque.
CCm Girl you're quoting from the straight playbook. I mean some of the stuff you've said is absolutely verbatim. You've also totally failed to present any sort of counter argument to Anne Bonney who has done a pretty superb job of ripping up the teen torture industry.
As for most of the rest of you, including the regulars from the anon army you've contributed what equates to a great big internet dumo in the middle of an important debate and give CCM girl a smokescreen to hide behind. You give her something to respond to and pretend she is actually participating in the debate.
Besides which the pointless attacks and ad hominem jibes just cheapen the whole thing. No one who reads this is gonna change their minds about the teen torture trade. We failed. Miserably
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So, Kevin August is going to "re-compile ASART's Guidelines" into some new list,? THEN, Kev Boy will tailor some percentage of ASART's guidelines into what he thinks will be an acceptable program profile so he can then approve.....and then refer children to this program?
Guess 21 year old Kev Boy believes he knows more than ASTART professionals?
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CCM is you want to play therapist go get a 4 year psychology degree. Then get your masters. Then internet for a few years with troubled teens at various psychiatric facilities. Then go get your doctorate in psyhchology and then you MIGHT be qualified to diagnosis and treat kids and give their parents advice.
Until you are qualified, what you are doing is both unethical and quite possibly illegal.
I thought her advice to someone to handcuff their hands behind their back was pretty good.. :rofl:
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This is grotesque.
CCm Girl you're quoting from the straight playbook. I mean some of the stuff you've said is absolutely verbatim. You've also totally failed to present any sort of counter argument to Anne Bonney who has done a pretty superb job of ripping up the teen torture industry.
As for most of the rest of you, including the regulars from the anon army you've contributed what equates to a great big internet dumo in the middle of an important debate and give CCM girl a smokescreen to hide behind. You give her something to respond to and pretend she is actually participating in the debate.
Besides which the pointless attacks and ad hominem jibes just cheapen the whole thing. No one who reads this is gonna change their minds about the teen torture trade. We failed. Miserably
True
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What is true?
Things went just fine with all of that! :em:
Seriously, if the thread isn't purely dry and factual it's "a failure"? :roll:
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Still nothing, huh? I wonder how her buddy Kevin feels about these studies?
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TSW: Instead of your typical drunken rantings, do you think you could help kids more by referring them to programs not located on this website?
Since you have a college degree and several years experience in this field you would be perfect as an educational consultant.
I hope you give it some thought.
A parent.
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I just wanted to be in the middle somewhere here. I think that there are times when teens need to get help. I believe that there are safe places that make a possitive difference in kids lives. I don't believe that all TBS's, are all bad, evil, or abusive. But, no!!!!!!! I had to be 100% on board with you guys saying that any kind of treatment especially when forced on teenagers is wrong, and cruel!
you know i could not agree more that some kids do need help. i am willing to concede that all places *may* not be abusive in their approach. But what I do challenge is the philosophy of taking a kid who needs help out of the community. Sometimes normal boarding school is recommended over TBS but even then i would say that if a kid is troubled this route misses the point because while their content and secure counterpart might do well away from the family an insecure and troubled child is likely to feel that they were too much of a burden on loved ones.
The UK health dept recently published the claim that its suicide rate is the lowest since it began to collect the data. So i had a look at what UK NGOs and govt depts are doing to treat suicide and depression. I have posted some links below. One thing i noticed was that institutionalisation was not pushed at all. The other thing which was emhphasised was that academic failure was not the end of the world.
one sight which admittedly was geared toward the parents of uni students pointed out that if the depression was linked to academic pressure it was important to remind the kid that a year off or even leaving study indefinitely could be an option. it reminded me of exhausted's happy burger flipper comment.
What if the prevalent attitude toward the problems of adolescents was either that
A) some kids are absolute nightmares. Their parents need support within the community so that years later when the kid is past it, their awfulness becomes a family joke
B) Bonafide mental illness needs to be seen as a community issue and that even when on the right track in terms of being able to function, there are some people who have unique personalities and will never necessarily fit into the box. Where would xmas lunch be without Wacky aunt Zelda who fashions jewellery out of beer cans for a living?
c)While a childs sexual promiscuity, terrible choice of boyfriend and substance use are a worry to parents, the costs of locking a young person away to prevent them from doing this are higher than the benefits of keeping them from doing this.
d) in the unfortunate event of a substance addiction or eating disorder which is bad enough to require hospitalisation or an institution family need to visit regularly. Friends (who are not likely to smuggle drugs in) need to be allowed contact. The kid needs to not be cut off from their world.
i appreciate that this sounds overly idealistic but the only way ideas gain mainstream acceptance is if they are put out ofr examination.
http://www.cre8ive.com.au/cms/content/j ... ril_05.pdf (http://www.cre8ive.com.au/cms/content/justask/suicideprev_toolkit_april_05.pdf)
http://www.dh.gov.uk/PublicationsAndSta ... chk=CQnM7N (http://www.dh.gov.uk/PublicationsAndStatistics/PressReleases/PressReleasesNotices/fs/en?CONTENT_ID=4133871&chk=CQnM7N)
http://www.papyrus-uk.org/for-parents.html (http://www.papyrus-uk.org/for-parents.html)
http://www.clinical-depression.co.uk/Tr ... olling.htm (http://www.clinical-depression.co.uk/Treating_Depression/controlling.htm)
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TSW: Instead of your typical drunken rantings, do you think you could help kids more by referring them to programs not located on this website?
Since you have a college degree and several years experience in this field you would be perfect as an educational consultant.
I hope you give it some thought.
A parent.
I'll take a stab at this one. I am going to guess TSW would probably rather pour battery acid down his pants than be an ed con.
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CCM, two things.
1. http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_ground
2. You do not help a child by making them live in terror, anxiety, humiliation and physical punishment. You yourself should know that all too well.
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CCMGirl.
The reason you are getting such a harsh reception here, besides the proclivities of the anonymous army is that you appear to have totally disregarded the massive body of information on these very forums that says in short TBS/BMS/Boot camps/LGAT's are a really really bad idea. The state of the science is such that the very best experts in the fields of psychology, education, justice and criminology and sociology have all rolled up and said "This is a really really bad idea"
What's more even if it was a good idea, even if it worked (which is categorically doesnt) this kind of incarceration without due process, the process of thought reform and the very moral fabric of the profession is totally contrary to the tradition of individualism and liberty that America exists to protect and foster. Are you saying that only adults deserve these things because I'll tell you the Supreme court of the united States disagrees with you and I quote..
"constitutional rights do not mature and come into being magically only when one attains the state-defined age of majority" SCOTUS in Missouri Vs Danforth 1976
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I am superior to you in all ways.
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CCMGirl.
The reason you are getting such a harsh reception here
Is because you are not a natural blonde.
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i appreciate that this sounds overly idealistic
You are not overly idealistic, your ideas are rational and compassionate.
The tough-love advocates are overly idealistic. They believe so strongly in what they do that they are able to disregard individual rights and force others to accept their view. That's overly idealistic.
Arranged kidnappings and incarceration without due process is wrong regardless of the age of the victim. They refuse to see that.
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TSW: Instead of your typical drunken rantings, do you think you could help kids more by referring them to programs not located on this website?
Since you have a college degree and several years experience in this field you would be perfect as an educational consultant.
I hope you give it some thought.
A parent.
Where is that troll-o-meter? ::troll:: ::troll::
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CCMGirl.
The reason you are getting such a harsh reception here, besides the proclivities of the anonymous army is that you appear to have totally disregarded the massive body of information on these very forums that says in short TBS/BMS/Boot camps/LGAT's are a really really bad idea. The state of the science is such that the very best experts in the fields of psychology, education, justice and criminology and sociology have all rolled up and said "This is a really really bad idea"
What's more even if it was a good idea, even if it worked (which is categorically doesnt) this kind of incarceration without due process, the process of thought reform and the very moral fabric of the profession is totally contrary to the tradition of individualism and liberty that America exists to protect and foster. Are you saying that only adults deserve these things because I'll tell you the Supreme court of the united States disagrees with you and I quote..
"constitutional rights do not mature and come into being magically only when one attains the state-defined age of majority" SCOTUS in Missouri Vs Danforth 1976
Right on, Aardvark -- good post!
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TSW you ought to be ashamed of yourself... I mean, think of the kids, man.
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You are one disturbed individual. :rofl:
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You are one disturbed individual. :rofl:
Shut up!
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You are one disturbed individual. :rofl:
Shut up!
I was kidding, you impertinent son of a bitch! :rofl:
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How 'bout it CCMG? You ready to give us your thoughts on this yet?
I just wanted to be in the middle somewhere here. I think that there are times when teens need to get help. I believe that there are safe places that make a possitive difference in kids lives. I don't believe that all TBS's, are all bad, evil, or abusive. But, no!!!!!!! I had to be 100% on board with you guys saying that any kind of treatment especially when forced on teenagers is wrong, and cruel!
Well, I don't feel that way. So, whatever! But, that doesn't mean I am a programmie?!! That doesn't mean I need to set down the fricken kool-aid!!!! Geez, what's next? If your 5 year old doesn't want to go to public school to start kindergarten, oh fuck it, let them just stay home! God forbid we force anything on anybody LOL!!!!
Think ya might get around to giving us your thoughts on the NIH and NMHA statements about boot camps?
http://consensus.nih.gov/2004/2004Youth ... 23html.htm (http://consensus.nih.gov/2004/2004YouthViolencePreventionSOS023html.htm)
http://www1.nmha.org/children/justjuv/bootcamp.cfm (http://www1.nmha.org/children/justjuv/bootcamp.cfm)
After all, you asked what my problem was with the boot camp Anti WWASP is recommending. I answered. I'd like you to do the same now.
Magnolia Christian Center's Respect and Discipline Camp offered for 30 to 60 day interventions:
http://http://magnoliachristiancenter.net/Respect.htm
Kevin.. how can you possibly suggest this place to anyone?
:o :o :o Holy shit!
Tell us again CCMgirl how different you guys are. :roll: :roll:
Yeah, so???? It's designed to get a teens immediate attention. 30-60 days of having to be there???? BFD!!!!!! You guys always find fault with something when it comes to treatment. Sometimes teens do need a wake up call! Hello????? What is your objection A.B.?
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About as much truth as Robert is expecting out of Who.
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I think Roy Bean might be playing young Kev. Does he work for the program on the teenhelp.us approved list?
Bring in referrals for himself maybe?
$$$
:-?
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http://www.teenshelp.us/support/ (http://www.teenshelp.us/support/)
Looks like teenshelp has a 1-800 number now or did they always have one?
Not sure what this is all leading to but it looks to me like someone is in way over their head.
Hope the other WWASPS survivors have some common sense and dare I say, ethics, because there are many other forums and groups they can participate in that are not connected in ANY way with the program referral biz.
:roll:
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I'm late to the thread, but I think I get the general idea.
Are you guys saying that antiwwasp and CCM Girl are now referring kids to programs for money??? Or is this the "slippery slope" of "this program's not bad..." etc.?
Either way, CCM Girl, I'm astonished. I don't know Kevin, but if he is promoting programs, he needs to find something better to do with his time. That's pathetic.
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Does that 1-800 number go to Kev? Who answers the phone at that number to give advice to parents? Ms. Cleo perhaps?
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et tu Kevin?
Tsk, Tsk.
Selling programs may sound like a noble profession to you, but I think you will find you are in the vast minority on that opinion.
What shocks me is none of these WWASPS survivors (except one, a very wise young man) has the balls to walk away from this b.s.?
Damn, how many more times must the anti-wwasps movement be hijacked before people wake up and realize they "done been had"?
Revolution, my ass.
This is more like an 'effin nightmare. History repeating itself.
Sad day in America when survivors start servin' the koolaid.
Thoughts?
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Very apt, astute, salient even.
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Sad day in America when survivors start servin' the koolaid.
That's by design. Get us stupid enough to think we can have our own fucking crusade against abuse, by doing the same old shit. It's only one step away from saying "You know what? I'm going to form my own school, and make it so that it's nothing like the one I went to."
The ones who say they are trying to "fix" the system can be just as bad as the ones who say there is nothing wrong with it at all.
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And Kev-O has the "administrator" at Magnolia Christian Center helping him set the standards? OH-BOY...this outta be good!
Remember: Magnolia is paying Kev-O to send kids to this Mississippi boot camp. This place is being run by former WWASP employee(s)...And this place wants to have parents referred to them by a WWASP survivor.
WHOA, this just stinks!
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"Many of us that go into the healing, helping professions do so out of some sort of dysfunction or traumatic event in our lives, and we want to do what we can to help other people avoid what we've gone through," he said. "He is certainly gifted and intelligent and has an intuitive side to him. And he has life experience. Those are good credentials."
Haggard says he's not gay
By Eric Gorski
Denver Post Staff Writer
Denver Post
Article Last Updated:02/06/2007 09:55:15 AM MST
The Rev. Ted Haggard emerged from three weeks of intensive counseling convinced he is "completely heterosexual" and told an oversight board that his sexual contact with men was limited to his accuser.
That is according to one of the disgraced pastor's overseers, who on Monday revealed new details about where Haggard has been and where he is headed.
The Rev. Tim Ralph of Larkspur also said the four-man oversight board strongly urged Haggard to go into secular work instead of Christian ministry if Haggard and his wife follow through on plans to earn master's degrees in psychology.
Haggard broke a three-month silence in e-mails over the weekend to select members of his former church. New Life Church interim senior pastor Ross Parsley forwarded Haggard's message to the wider church body Monday.
In the message, Haggard revealed that he and his wife, Gayle, intend to leave Colorado Springs and pursue master's degrees through online courses.
Haggard mentioned Missouri and Iowa as possible destinations. Another oversight board member, the Rev. Mike Ware of Westminster, said the group recommended the move out of town, and the Haggards agreed.
"This is a good place for Ted," Ware said. "It's hard to heal in Colorado Springs right now. It's like an open wound. He needs to get somewhere he can get the wound healed."
Sex-addiction program
Haggard, 50, resigned as president of the National Association of Evangelicals and was fired from the church he built from nothing into a 14,000-member congregation after a former male prostitute in Denver alleged a three-year cash-for-sex relationship.
Haggard admitted to "sexual immorality" and a long battle against feelings contrary to his beliefs. He admitted buying methamphetamine but said he never used it. Haggard did not respond to interview requests.
Among other things, the overseers urged Haggard to enter a 12-step program for sexual addiction, Ware said.
Ralph said three weeks of counseling at an undisclosed Arizona treatment center helped Haggard immensely and left Haggard sure of one thing.
"He is completely heterosexual," Ralph said. "That is something he discovered. It was the acting- out situations where things took place. It wasn't a constant thing."
Why Haggard chose to act out in that manner is something Haggard and his advisers are trying to discern, Ralph said.
In investigating Haggard's assertion that his extramarital sexual contact was limited to former male escort Mike Jones, the board talked to people close to Haggard and found no evidence contradicting him, Ralph said.
"If we're going to be proved wrong, somebody else is going to come forward, and that usually happens really quickly," he said. "We're into this thing over 90 days, and it hasn't happened."
Steering Haggard away from a return to ministry was based, in part, on Haggard's high profile, Ralph said. He cited biblical passages about holding influential figures to a higher standard.
"Nobody is saying he can't go back into ministry," Ralph said. "Somewhere down the road, that could very well happen, and that would be wonderful."
Counseling continues
Haggard is being asked to join a church wherever the couple moves and continue the Christian counseling he receives twice a week, Ralph said.
The oversight board that includes Ralph is focusing on New Life Church's future but continues to counsel Haggard.
What has been termed Haggard's "restoration" is being overseen by another panel: H.B. London, who runs a Focus on the Family ministry to pastors, and megachurch pastors Tommy Barnett and Jack Hayford.
London said he was not surprised Haggard was considering the psychological field.
"Many of us that go into the healing, helping professions do so out of some sort of dysfunction or traumatic event in our lives, and we want to do what we can to help other people avoid what we've gone through," he said. "He is certainly gifted and intelligent and has an intuitive side to him. And he has life experience. Those are good credentials."
Staff writer Eric Gorski can be reached at 303-954-1698 or egorski@denverpost.com.
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Are you suggesting Kev is secretly gay and taking meth?
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Yeah, what is your point?
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That he's taking up the ol' highway, there.......?
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Yeah, what is your point?
You should know more than anyone.
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"JUDGE ROYBEAN" seems to talk alot, BUT:
Mississippi Legislative Session 2006- House Bill 536 July l, 2006
"Exempts any school affliated with ACE from the state child licensing requirements."
ROYBEAN claims Magnolia Christian Center is certified/accredited throught ACE---but a closer inspection with ACE shows that Magnolia Christian is ACTUALLY certified through Lighthouse Academy, a school in Florida. So, perhaps the JUDGE needs to be a bit more clear in explaining EXACTLY how his "school" is certified through ACE.
State Board of Education-Mississippi
Non-Public Schools
"HEALTH" Church related schools are exempt from Mississippi State Board of Health standards for preparation of food.
Miss Cod Ann. 41-3-15
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i wonder who paid for that little piece of legislation.
Isn't that a violation of separation of church and state? It provides an unfair benefit to religiously affiliated facilities... What was the excuse for pushing that pork through?
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Point is, JUDGE ROYBEAN talks about "surprise inspections" and the HEALTH DEPARTMENT---yet he opens up his boot camp school in the STATE OF MISSISSIPPI which passes legislation which EXEMPTS these religious schools from basic standards for food preparation, and from State child care licensing requirements.
Guess it's EASY to talk, with legislation like this to hide behind.
Mississippi is beginning to make UTAH look almost grand.
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Point is, JUDGE ROYBEAN talks about "surprise inspections" and the HEALTH DEPARTMENT---yet he opens up his boot camp school in the STATE OF MISSISSIPPI which passes legislation which EXEMPTS these religious schools from basic standards for food preparation, and from State child care licensing requirements.
Guess it's EASY to talk, with legislation like this to hide behind.
Mississippi is beginning to make UTAH look almost grand.
oh that i understand.
i just wonder how the fuck they were able to justify it.
but i'm goin to sleep anyhoo
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TSW you go to tell Kev that Three Springs is a safe program, and he should take the word of a staff about it. Maybe you can get it on his list? It's better than WWASPS, and that is all that matters.
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Most people accept that ISAC has some good insight into abusive facilities.
ISAC: WARNING SIGNS OF POTENTIALLY ABUSIVE FACILITIES
#8 "Phone calls between chldren and parents are monitored"
Judge Roybean states that phone calls are monitored so kids won't be begging to come home?
Listen up Kevin August!
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I don't think its better than wwasp. I call it the undiscovered wwasp.
You must have missed the memo. EVERY program is worse than WWASPS according to some survivors and ANY program would be better.
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Holy christ his site is up. The damn thing has an evaluation form. Does Kevin now claim to have a comprehensive background in psycology as well?
:o
http://http://www.teenshelp.us/
we all know he doesn't need one.
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Does JUDGE ROYBEAN'S little bootcamp, churchy "school" MAGNOLIA, actually take insurance?
This is a so-called school that piggy-backs its certification from ACE through another facitlity in ANOTHER STATE, Florida: Lighthouse Academy. How difficult could it be to get certified through ACE?
And JUDGE ROYBEAN posts, with seeminly pride, that these boys are fed LEFT OVERS from some down-the-road buffet resturant in this back-country Mississippi town?
JUDGE ROYBEAN posts his philosopy on "sparing the rod....." but claims no abuse goes on at Magnolia.
ROYBEAN disclosed his previous employment at Bethel/WWASP.
Who knows what ROYBEAN defines as "abuse."
WHO are these "counselors" that Kevin August SAYS are on HIS STAFF?
Kevin August has NO DEGREE to qualify him to be evaluating children for placement in any type of program for children....not even day care!!!!
This is an outrage.
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WHO are these "counselors" that Kevin August SAYS are on HIS STAFF?
Kevin August has NO DEGREE to qualify him to be evaluating children for placement in any type of program for children....not even day care!!!!
This is an outrage.
he doesn't need any qualifications and yes it is an outrage
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Anyone ever consider that this might all be an elaborate hoax?
Google for "Judge Roy Bean".
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Anyone ever consider that this might all be an elaborate hoax?
Google for "Judge Roy Bean".
(http://http://www.leverguns.com/desktop/Judge_Roy_Bean.jpg)
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Revolution, my ass.
This is more like an 'effin nightmare. History repeating itself.
Sad day in America when survivors start servin' the koolaid.
Thoughts?
Foremost thought in my mind is that this is nothing new. Every program out there was started by program grads and/or parents and virtually all of them are staffed almost entirely by the indoctrinated. It always astonishes me how people seem to forget the nature of the beast. To outsiders, I guess it makes sense to try to separate the good guys from the bad guys and sort them into neat, tidy categories. But it's a whole lot more muddled than that. Just about every program I know of started out with exactly the same mission as Kev and CCM; a kinder, gentler ______ Ask anybody who was involved in the founding of Straight. It was supposed to be a kinder, gentler Seed. Within the first year most of the founding BOD bailed for one reason or another as they ran out of ways to keep themselves convinced they were doing something good.
Same ol'e, same ol'e.
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This is a so-called school that piggy-backs its certification from ACE through another facitlity in ANOTHER STATE, Florida: Lighthouse Academy. How difficult could it be to get certified through ACE?
It's not. When I was in Straight I went to a PACE school called West Florida Christian on McIntosh Rd in Sarasota. Bizarre place, leme tell ya! They've probably updated the history 'curricula' by now, but back then it didn't have two paragraphs about Jefferson, Adams, Franklin and only a side note about Washington. They gave Colonel Sanders, proud patriot and good Klansman, a full chapter.