Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Ganja on January 28, 2007, 01:26:34 PM
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Ganja on January 28, 2007, 01:26:34 PM
Me, me, me. MY kid is out of control! :scared:
I need MY space! :evil:
WAAAH, I'm a big fucking BABY who never should have had kids. ::crybaby::
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on January 28, 2007, 03:48:43 PM
Hmmm....I wonder how well it would go over if a parent responded:
Wa,Wa,Wa, my parents sent me to wilderness camp for 3 weeks and they took away my ipod and cd collection and made me remove my jewelry. I had to do exercise every day and cook my own food, wa,wa,wa, and then I had to talk about my feelings?wa,wa,wa??I will get even and make up stories about how evil the place is and tell how everyone abuses the kids and I will get these places shut down? Wa,Wa,Wa,?.. every time I screw up in life I can always blame my parents for sending me to wilderness?wa,wa,wa,
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anonymous on January 28, 2007, 03:50:52 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Hmmm....I wonder how well it would go over if a parent responded:
Wa,Wa,Wa, my parents sent me to wilderness camp for 3 weeks and they took away my ipod and cd collection and made me remove my jewelry. I had to do exercise every day and cook my own food, wa,wa,wa, and then I had to talk about my feelings?wa,wa,wa??I will get even and make up stories about how evil the place is and tell how everyone abuses the kids and I will get these places shut down? Wa,Wa,Wa,?.. every time I screw up in life I can always blame my parents for sending me to wilderness?wa,wa,wa,
You sound like an idiot who's never set foot in a program. :rofl:
Title: Re: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anonymous on January 28, 2007, 03:51:38 PM
Quote from: ""Ganja""
Me, me, me. MY kid is out of control! :scared:
I need MY space! :evil:
WAAAH, I'm a big fucking BABY who never should have had kids. ::crybaby::
You sound like a very familiar ST poster I know of.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Ganja on January 28, 2007, 03:52:29 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Hmmm....I wonder how well it would go over if a parent responded:
Wa,Wa,Wa, my parents sent me to wilderness camp for 3 weeks and they took away my ipod and cd collection and made me remove my jewelry. I had to do exercise every day and cook my own food, wa,wa,wa, and then I had to talk about my feelings?wa,wa,wa??I will get even and make up stories about how evil the place is and tell how everyone abuses the kids and I will get these places shut down? Wa,Wa,Wa,?.. every time I screw up in life I can always blame my parents for sending me to wilderness?wa,wa,wa,
Comes a time when we should come to terms with the fact that we were abused, granted. But the rest of your post attempts to justify abuse.
If nothing else, Animals should have taught you that society can mirror what we refer to as "the program" if you choose to let it.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anonymous on January 28, 2007, 03:54:25 PM
Quote
I will get even and make up stories about how evil the place is and tell how everyone abuses the kids and I will get these places shut down?
Now you are showing your true colors. Denial is a place inhabited by MANY ex program parents. This is unbelievably common.
Title: Re: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Ganja on January 28, 2007, 03:54:58 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""Ganja""
Me, me, me. MY kid is out of control! :scared:
I need MY space! :evil:
WAAAH, I'm a big fucking BABY who never should have had kids. ::crybaby::
You sound like a very familiar ST poster I know of.
Hmm.. well I'm not that person, whoever it is; I don't go to ST.
Title: Re: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anonymous on January 28, 2007, 03:57:33 PM
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on January 28, 2007, 03:57:34 PM
Not bad responses, better than I had expected. As you can see the post is a polar opposite of the first one. Doesnt really leave the door open for open minded dialog or discussion does it?
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Ganja on January 28, 2007, 03:58:37 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Not bad responses, better than I had expected. As you can see the post is a polar opposite of the first one. Doesnt really leave the door open for open minded dialog or discussion does it?
What post are you referring to..?
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anonymous on January 28, 2007, 04:00:22 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Not bad responses, better than I had expected. As you can see the post is a polar opposite of the first one. Doesnt really leave the door open for open minded dialog or discussion does it?
No it sounds like in your pathetic attempt at humor and farce, you still fail to realize the reality of what the programs discussed on this forum are really like. It's incomprehensible to you. You joke about it, dance around the subject, no... you are just like every other program I've met in my life. To see something different than your canned responses, now THAT would be a surprise. You are all the same.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on January 28, 2007, 04:01:09 PM
Quote from: ""Ganja""
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Not bad responses, better than I had expected. As you can see the post is a polar opposite of the first one. Doesnt really leave the door open for open minded dialog or discussion does it?
What post are you referring to..?
The first 2 posts of this thread are polar opposites. I was also indicating that the response to my post was what I expected.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anonymous on January 28, 2007, 04:01:52 PM
Here ya go Who.
[troll4]
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Ganja on January 28, 2007, 04:02:15 PM
Ah, I see.
Don't mind me, it's the weed.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anonymous on January 28, 2007, 04:06:17 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Hmmm....I wonder how well it would go over if a parent responded:
Wa,Wa,Wa, my parents sent me to wilderness camp for 3 weeks and they took away my ipod and cd collection and made me remove my jewelry. I had to do exercise every day and cook my own food, wa,wa,wa, and then I had to talk about my feelings?wa,wa,wa??I will get even and make up stories about how evil the place is and tell how everyone abuses the kids and I will get these places shut down? Wa,Wa,Wa,?.. every time I screw up in life I can always blame my parents for sending me to wilderness?wa,wa,wa,
I bet this is what your impact letter sounded like to your daughter, it's too well rehearsed for you just to bust that out on a whim. You do know what an impact letter is yes? Because this sounds just like one! You play the part well, almost... too well. :-?
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on January 28, 2007, 04:08:37 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Not bad responses, better than I had expected. As you can see the post is a polar opposite of the first one. Doesnt really leave the door open for open minded dialog or discussion does it?
No it sounds like in your pathetic attempt at humor and farce, you still fail to realize the reality of what the programs discussed on this forum are really like. It's incomprehensible to you. You joke about it, dance around the subject, no... you are just like every other program I've met in my life. To see something different than your canned responses, now THAT would be a surprise. You are all the same.
Ha,Ha.... look at the title of this Thread and the first post!!! you missed it !! Dont jump on me!!! I wasnt the one to introduce humor here..... you are too quick to point fingers. Dont be hard on Ganja, though, it was funny and some humor is healthy once in awhile.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on January 28, 2007, 04:10:33 PM
Quote from: ""Ganja""
Ah, I see.
Don't mind me, it's the weed.
Nice. that was blunt
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Ganja on January 28, 2007, 04:11:35 PM
:rofl: I wish. :lol:
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anonymous on January 28, 2007, 04:15:32 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Not bad responses, better than I had expected. As you can see the post is a polar opposite of the first one. Doesnt really leave the door open for open minded dialog or discussion does it?
No it sounds like in your pathetic attempt at humor and farce, you still fail to realize the reality of what the programs discussed on this forum are really like. It's incomprehensible to you. You joke about it, dance around the subject, no... you are just like every other program I've met in my life. To see something different than your canned responses, now THAT would be a surprise. You are all the same.
Ha,Ha.... look at the title of this Thread and the first post!!! you missed it !! Dont jump on me!!! I wasnt the one to introduce humor here..... you are too quick to point fingers. Dont be hard on Ganja, though, it was funny and some humor is healthy once in awhile.
I am a program parent. My teenager is giving me problems and I need to put them somewhere quiet until they are old enough to go to college. I don't want them manipulating and spreading rumors about lies at home, they say we sexiually abused them which is not true. I need a program to psychologically coerce them over a long period of time until they will no longer say these vicious lies about our family. I need a child who will fall to the ground crying at the site of me, and I need a program where I can send them away for a least a couple years. As my children grow older I would like to send all of them away so I am interested in getting involved with the seminars and parent groups to recruit other families to send their children. I want a chance to unload my emotional baggage and blame them for our family problems in a setting where they cannot talk back and are forced to absorb this under threat of isolation and physical injury. I am tired of them talking back to me and making up lies. I know full well of the abuse and stories of the kids but I think they are all lying, I know because my kids do the same thing. Just take them, I don't want them anymore.
Hardy, har, har... this shit is hilarious isn't it? I bet you think I just made that all up, dont you?
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Ganja on January 28, 2007, 04:18:51 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
I am a program parent. My teenager is giving me problems and I need to put them somewhere quiet until they are old enough to go to college. I don't want them manipulating and spreading rumors about lies at home, they say we sexiually abused them which is not true. I need a program to psychologically coerce them over a long period of time until they will no longer say these vicious lies about our family. I need a child who will fall to the ground crying at the site of me, and I need a program where I can send them away for a least a couple years. As my children grow older I would like to send all of them away so I am interested in getting involved with the seminars and parent groups to recruit other families to send their children. I want a chance to unload my emotional baggage and blame them for our family problems in a setting where they cannot talk back and are forced to absorb this under threat of isolation and physical injury. I am tired of them talking back to me and making up lies. I know full well of the abuse and stories of the kids but I think they are all lying, I know because my kids do the same thing. Just take them, I don't want them anymore.
Hardy, har, har... this shit is hilarious isn't it? I bet you think I just made that all up, dont you?
Awesome. This is exactly the sort of writing I hoped would occur when I started this thread!
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on January 28, 2007, 04:23:48 PM
There is a guest poster here who is really going to get pissed when she reads you guys are making lite of the situation, acting glib and joking among yourselves!!!
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anonymous on January 28, 2007, 04:25:51 PM
Actually, I think the mind of a program parent can best be expressed pictorally.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Ganja on January 28, 2007, 04:29:55 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
There is a guest poster here who is really going to get pissed when she reads you guys are making lite of the situation, acting glib and joking among yourselves!!!
:lol: :scared: 8-) :P
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anonymous on January 28, 2007, 04:31:17 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
There is a guest poster here who is really going to get pissed when she reads you guys are making lite of the situation, acting glib and joking among yourselves!!!
In order for satire to work, there has to be some semblence of truth to the person you are satiring. You are attempting to satirize a myth, belonging only to devout program parents who bow down to their emotoinal overgrowth gods. Have you noticed religious people sometimes miss sarcasm and satire in everyday conversation? Well sorry to be the one who tells you this, but you are that dopey wide-eyed fundamentalist your political bretheren claim to hate. Better keep it on the down low... (isn't that the hip term these days?)
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anonymous on January 28, 2007, 04:33:58 PM
I am a teen. I hate my parents and my life. I don't care about going to school and don't see any problem with skipping and hanging out with my friends all day drinking and smoking pot. Why should I get a job? If I need money I can sell some dope down at the junior high. I quit the football team-the stupid coach expected us to sign a pledge that we wouldn't drink or use drugs. I don't see much point in living anymore, so I spend a lot of time just sleeping until my friends come around. I don't do anything to help around the house because I don't feel like it. I only stay at home so I have good food and a nice place to live. I steal money from my parents and sometimes sell some of their stuff to get money. My teachers at school can't understand why I have changed so much- I used to really care about learning and wanted to go to college and graduate school. I was the captain of the football team. I just don't care anymore. I won't speak to my parents- I hate them. They are always in my biz. I've heard them arguing about what to do with me and my mother cries. My little sister has nightmares because she is afraid of my yelling and hitting her. My friends scare her, too.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anonymous on January 28, 2007, 04:38:07 PM
Okay now youre getting better!
So, I assume that person is based on your daughter? Is that why she was sent away.. because it seems like that teen definitely does not need a program.
I'll tell you the person I was posing as in my satire as a program parent was the parents of a friend of mine at a certain private program that people love to get discussed around here. I wasnt exagerating at all, its exactly what happened... but the "teen" who posted second in this thread, no way.. that teen does not exist. the post before this.. getting more real there.. i like that!
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Ganja on January 28, 2007, 04:38:56 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
I am a teen. I hate my parents and my life. I don't care about going to school and don't see any problem with skipping and hanging out with my friends all day drinking and smoking pot. Why should I get a job? If I need money I can sell some dope down at the junior high. I quit the football team-the stupid coach expected us to sign a pledge that we wouldn't drink or use drugs. I don't see much point in living anymore, so I spend a lot of time just sleeping until my friends come around. I don't do anything to help around the house because I don't feel like it. I only stay at home so I have good food and a nice place to live. I steal money from my parents and sometimes sell some of their stuff to get money. My teachers at school can't understand why I have changed so much- I used to really care about learning and wanted to go to college and graduate school. I was the captain of the football team. I just don't care anymore. I won't speak to my parents- I hate them. They are always in my biz. I've heard them arguing about what to do with me and my mother cries. My little sister has nightmares because she is afraid of my yelling and hitting her. My friends scare her, too.
Ok, point taken.
If you were my kid, I'd take appropriate legal action against you for being a flagrant douchebag.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anonymous on January 28, 2007, 04:39:53 PM
Quote from: ""Ganja""
Ok, point taken.
If you were my kid, I'd take appropriate legal action against you for being a flagrant douchebag.
:rofl: :rofl:
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on January 28, 2007, 04:43:27 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
I am a teen. I hate my parents and my life. I don't care about going to school and don't see any problem with skipping and hanging out with my friends all day drinking and smoking pot. Why should I get a job? If I need money I can sell some dope down at the junior high. I quit the football team-the stupid coach expected us to sign a pledge that we wouldn't drink or use drugs. I don't see much point in living anymore, so I spend a lot of time just sleeping until my friends come around. I don't do anything to help around the house because I don't feel like it. I only stay at home so I have good food and a nice place to live. I steal money from my parents and sometimes sell some of their stuff to get money. My teachers at school can't understand why I have changed so much- I used to really care about learning and wanted to go to college and graduate school. I was the captain of the football team. I just don't care anymore. I won't speak to my parents- I hate them. They are always in my biz. I've heard them arguing about what to do with me and my mother cries. My little sister has nightmares because she is afraid of my yelling and hitting her. My friends scare her, too.
I think you are just going thru a phase..... I suggest that you do nothing, this is normal for teens to go thru. If your sister ends up hurt it is because she wasnt strong enough or your parents didnt care enough to do something, but what ever the out come none of this is your fault. Hang in there
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Ganja on January 28, 2007, 05:03:17 PM
I'm sorry, but if that were my kid they would regret stealing from me.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anonymous on January 28, 2007, 05:08:20 PM
You don't steal from people you respect. Clue?
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Ganja on January 28, 2007, 05:10:46 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
You don't steal from people you respect. Clue?
Hopefully not.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on January 28, 2007, 05:12:11 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
You don't steal from people you respect. Clue?
Oh, Oh, Mr. Carter, yes , I get it now, its the parents fault. It took me a minute to figure it out.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anonymous on January 28, 2007, 05:14:25 PM
Someone hit a nerve. Getting too close to the truth, understandable. Keep building that wall, build it high.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anonymous on January 28, 2007, 05:19:38 PM
Was your daughter really captain of the football team? Or were you just basing that off last week's Gilmore Girls?
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anonymous on January 28, 2007, 05:46:02 PM
I am the parent of a very angry, very rebellious teen All throughout his life I've been using 'tough love' techniques to force him to obey, implementing the strictest punishments I can ever find because the Bible says that to spare the rod is to spoil the child. Now he's too big to fuck with like that anymore, and has openly stopped respecting me and says he will piss on my grave, has been beating up his little sister, and he reads lots of Neitzsche and listens to heavy metal, blows pot smoke in my face, and triple dares me to do anything about it. There must be something fundamentally wrong with him, because there's no way that anything I've done could possibly be the cause.
I'm going to call up the escort company now. Wait, there's no dialtone?!
Hey, where did he get that gun--
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anonymous on January 28, 2007, 05:51:46 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
You don't steal from people you respect. Clue?
You don't suck strangers' cocks for money either, right? I guess it depends on how desperate you are for whatever gets you through the day.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Ganja on January 28, 2007, 05:51:48 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
I'm going to call up the escort company now. Wait, there's no dialtone?!
Hey, where did he get that gun--
Wake up, time to die! :skull: ::bwahaha:: ::fuckoff::
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: AtomicAnt on January 28, 2007, 05:53:41 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Quote from: ""Guest""
You don't steal from people you respect. Clue?
Oh, Oh, Mr. Carter, yes , I get it now, its the parents fault. It took me a minute to figure it out.
When I was a boy, I did not receive an allowance. My Dad said that if I needed money, he would give it to me. Whenever I asked for some money (to see a movie, or buy a toy), the answer was no. My friends would then go on without me to the movie or whatever.
My Mom did not like my Dad's frugality. She felt it was not fair that I be excluded from my friends' activities. She would whisper to me, "Take some money from my purse. Don't tell your Father." So I did.
It did not take long before I took the money without asking. I became a thief.
When my Mom would buy me something, my Dad would yell at her for wasting money on toys. He would threaten to take these back to the store. My Mom stood up to him and refused.
It was instilled into my young mind that I was a burden, not a blessing to my family. I did not deserve anything. I felt guilty for what I did get.
I had chores to do as well. The context was not about what's fair, but about who was in charge, and how grateful we little ingrates should be that we had the things our parents doled out to us.
The result of this childhood treatment was very much like the teen described. Was that my parents' fault? I'd say yes.
Now don't get me wrong. My son has chores. But the context is much different. My son is eager to help and wants to be involved. He understands that everyone in the family has to help. He also understands this is a two way street and he is entitled (yes, ENTITLED) to his fair share of the family's resources. Part of which is an allowance that is never revoked as punishment. In our family it is not about who the boss is or who owes who. It is about working as a team for a common goal. I like to think my son knows he is our greatest treasure and not at all a burden.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anonymous on January 28, 2007, 05:58:07 PM
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anonymous on January 28, 2007, 06:09:53 PM
Wait. Does he, in fact, shit his pants? He's not literally a Diaper Army member, is he? It wouldn't surprise me...
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on January 28, 2007, 06:11:45 PM
Quote from: ""AtomicAnt""
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Quote from: ""Guest""
You don't steal from people you respect. Clue?
Oh, Oh, Mr. Carter, yes , I get it now, its the parents fault. It took me a minute to figure it out.
When I was a boy, I did not receive an allowance. My Dad said that if I needed money, he would give it to me. Whenever I asked for some money (to see a movie, or buy a toy), the answer was no. My friends would then go on without me to the movie or whatever.
My Mom did not like my Dad's frugality. She felt it was not fair that I be excluded from my friends' activities. She would whisper to me, "Take some money from my purse. Don't tell your Father." So I did.
It did not take long before I took the money without asking. I became a thief.
When my Mom would buy me something, my Dad would yell at her for wasting money on toys. He would threaten to take these back to the store. My Mom stood up to him and refused.
It was instilled into my young mind that I was a burden, not a blessing to my family. I did not deserve anything. I felt guilty for what I did get.
I had chores to do as well. The context was not about what's fair, but about who was in charge, and how grateful we little ingrates should be that we had the things our parents doled out to us.
The result of this childhood treatment was very much like the teen described. Was that my parents' fault? I'd say yes.
Now don't get me wrong. My son has chores. But the context is much different. My son is eager to help and wants to be involved. He understands that everyone in the family has to help. He also understands this is a two way street and he is entitled (yes, ENTITLED) to his fair share of the family's resources. Part of which is an allowance that is never revoked as punishment. In our family it is not about who the boss is or who owes who. It is about working as a team for a common goal. I like to think my son knows he is our greatest treasure and not at all a burden.
I agree with you, it was your parents fault. Awful, AA, that you were not included in the family treasures and were taught to steal your fair share. Sounds like you are not passing it along, many kids end up modeling after their folks.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on January 28, 2007, 06:13:13 PM
Quote from: ""Milk Gargling Death Penalty""
Wait. Does he, in fact, shit his pants? He's not literally a Diaper Army member, is he? It wouldn't surprise me...
Dam.... I think it Depends.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Ganja on January 28, 2007, 06:21:59 PM
Quote from: ""AtomicAnt""
Now don't get me wrong. My son has chores. But the context is much different. My son is eager to help and wants to be involved. He understands that everyone in the family has to help. He also understands this is a two way street and he is entitled (yes, ENTITLED) to his fair share of the family's resources. Part of which is an allowance that is never revoked as punishment. In our family it is not about who the boss is or who owes who. It is about working as a team for a common goal. I like to think my son knows he is our greatest treasure and not at all a burden.
Sounds like you have a great approach to parenting.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: AtomicAnt on January 28, 2007, 06:33:33 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Quote from: ""AtomicAnt""
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Quote from: ""Guest""
You don't steal from people you respect. Clue?
Oh, Oh, Mr. Carter, yes , I get it now, its the parents fault. It took me a minute to figure it out.
When I was a boy, I did not receive an allowance. My Dad said that if I needed money, he would give it to me. Whenever I asked for some money (to see a movie, or buy a toy), the answer was no. My friends would then go on without me to the movie or whatever.
My Mom did not like my Dad's frugality. She felt it was not fair that I be excluded from my friends' activities. She would whisper to me, "Take some money from my purse. Don't tell your Father." So I did.
It did not take long before I took the money without asking. I became a thief.
When my Mom would buy me something, my Dad would yell at her for wasting money on toys. He would threaten to take these back to the store. My Mom stood up to him and refused.
It was instilled into my young mind that I was a burden, not a blessing to my family. I did not deserve anything. I felt guilty for what I did get.
I had chores to do as well. The context was not about what's fair, but about who was in charge, and how grateful we little ingrates should be that we had the things our parents doled out to us.
The result of this childhood treatment was very much like the teen described. Was that my parents' fault? I'd say yes.
Now don't get me wrong. My son has chores. But the context is much different. My son is eager to help and wants to be involved. He understands that everyone in the family has to help. He also understands this is a two way street and he is entitled (yes, ENTITLED) to his fair share of the family's resources. Part of which is an allowance that is never revoked as punishment. In our family it is not about who the boss is or who owes who. It is about working as a team for a common goal. I like to think my son knows he is our greatest treasure and not at all a burden.
I agree with you, it was your parents fault. Awful, AA, that you were not included in the family treasures and were taught to steal your fair share. Sounds like you are not passing it along, many kids end up modeling after their folks.
In defense of my parents; they did not know any better. They were/are not evil people, just not that good at parenting.
My intentions were to illustrate the role of context and perception. On another thread you mention that the chores at ASR were to build self-esteem, etc. I don't think some kids would ever come to see it that way. Same chores, two kids, two different perceptions. One kid sees forced labor for no return. One kid sees it as part of his responsibility. It helps one kid, but hurts the other. It is not therapy.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: exhausted on January 29, 2007, 07:26:52 AM
Agreed, chores are work, work gets you pay, on one hand a parent will take away any allownace because they're child isn't doing chores, so how is it fair not to give them financial gain for doing the work, if they messed up elsewhere, like they outrun their curfew, they get punished in a different way for that one, like having to stay in the next night for example.
If kids learn that they won't get paid/rewarded for work in younger years, why would anyone expect them to go get a job as there's no reward in working for it ? it's a simple life skill.
As for wa wa wa you sent me to a program without finding out i was about to be dehydrated, starved for being unable to build a fire, jumped on by 20 fat guys, yep, I'd be pretty pissed off too.... it'd be more wa wa wa why did you bring me into this world if you couldn't take the fight that parenting brings with it
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on January 29, 2007, 08:28:29 AM
Quote from: ""exhausted""
Agreed, chores are work, work gets you pay, on one hand a parent will take away any allownace because they're child isn't doing chores, so how is it fair not to give them financial gain for doing the work, if they messed up elsewhere, like they outrun their curfew, they get punished in a different way for that one, like having to stay in the next night for example.
If kids learn that they won't get paid/rewarded for work in younger years, why would anyone expect them to go get a job as there's no reward in working for it ? it's a simple life skill.
As for wa wa wa you sent me to a program without finding out i was about to be dehydrated, starved for being unable to build a fire, jumped on by 20 fat guys, yep, I'd be pretty pissed off too.... it'd be more wa wa wa why did you bring me into this world if you couldn't take the fight that parenting brings with it
If a child is interested in playing baseball there is no shame in getting outside help to teach him further skills if the parent has done all they can to teach them. It doesn?t mean the parent doesn?t have the fight in them to do it or they are bad parents. It doesn?t make sense for the parent to go to baseball camp and then come back and teach the child, much can be lost in translation. The most effective way is to match the child directly with the professional. Although I do agree the parent would be very highly regarded if he took the summer off from work to attend baseball camp for the soul purpose of helping his child, but most parents couldn?t do this.
Many kids at Wilderness or TBS have siblings who are doing fine, making great choices and moving down a healthy path, but some children require extra/professional help. If the parent was checked out or doing a lousy job then it would be reflected in all his children. As I have mentioned in previous posts the root cause can vary from family to family, child to child.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: try another castle on January 29, 2007, 08:52:43 AM
You mean that all any of us needed was to go to baseball camp? FUCK! I could be hitting homers now.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on January 29, 2007, 08:59:15 AM
Quote from: ""try another castle""
You mean that all any of us needed was to go to baseball camp? FUCK! I could be hitting homers now.
Yea...I hear ya.......plus getting paid $5,000,000 a year!!
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anonymous on January 29, 2007, 10:10:13 AM
Quote
but some children require extra/professional help
No matter how many times you imply that there are any children out there who need this crap, it doesn't make it true.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on January 29, 2007, 10:24:28 AM
Quote from: ""Milk Gargling Death Penalty""
Quote
but some children require extra/professional help
No matter how many times you imply that there are any children out there who need this crap, it doesn't make it true.
I think you will have an equally tough time convincing anyone that all these schools are the same and abuse kids, it just isnt true, which makes it a tough sell.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anonymous on January 29, 2007, 10:32:28 AM
Yes they are. Every single one. Especially incredibly abusive shitpits like ASR (http://http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=19966).
This is because the techniques used as "therapy" are themselves abusive. Hey Who, did you know that every single member of the Green Berets is a professional killer? Not just most of them, every single one. That's what we pay them for. Same way here. Like every other programmed parent there is, you shelled out big money to have your daughter hurt, because that's what behavior modification is, despite your laughable attempts to redefine the term.
Despite what other organizations the programmies might try to cuddle up with to include in "the industry", they are not included.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anonymous on January 29, 2007, 11:07:48 AM
If I sell faith healing services to cancer patients, is that abuse? Not according to who, even if my mismanagement of their care, kills them in the end. As long as nobody is getting abused, right.. whistle down the street, nothing to see here.. its not quackery or a cult, no this is legitimate. Put your hands on my stomach and I will cure your cancer, five thousand cash upfront. Any takers?
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on January 29, 2007, 11:36:55 AM
Quote from: ""Milk Gargling Death Penalty""
Yes they are. Every single one. Especially incredibly abusive shitpits like ASR (http://http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=19966).
This is because the techniques used as "therapy" are themselves abusive. Hey Who, did you know that every single member of the Green Berets is a professional killer? Not just most of them, every single one. That's what we pay them for. Same way here. Like every other programmed parent there is, you shelled out big money to have your daughter hurt, because that's what behavior modification is, despite your laughable attempts to redefine the term.
Despite what other organizations the programmies might try to cuddle up with to include in "the industry", they are not included.
Yes, they are put on bans and reflections. They break the rules they lose ?movie night? or the right to leave campus, self study etc. I didn?t see anyone being hurt by illegal restraints, rapes, high suicide rate or reports of lots of kids running away. I didn?t see any process in place designed to hurt the kids.
I didn?t see any questions about how good it felt to spend an afternoon in the pool or in the gym. How much fun they had on their off campus nights or trip to Costa Rica, friends they made , games they played during their down time etc.
The Green Berets are trained to kill,yes. It is in the training process, some make it through others do not because it doesn?t work for them. A TBS is designed to help kids, everyone of them!! Some can not be reached others have bad experiences and therefore are not helped. But the intent and design is there and it works. You cant judge the entire industry based on a few failures, bad counselors a dentist who screwed up someones braces. ASR doesn?t even have a dentist, the local dentists work directly with the parents. If a group of people try hard enough they can make any industry look bad but as long as the industry is adding value to the people who utilize it the industry will thrive.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on January 29, 2007, 11:50:15 AM
Kids aren't typically murdered in baseball camp by their coaches for refusing to do something. Happens in TBS's all the time.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on January 29, 2007, 12:03:53 PM
Quote from: ""RobertBruce""
Kids aren't typically murdered in baseball camp by their coaches for refusing to do something. Happens in TBS's all the time.
Murder occurs all the time at TBS's???.Hmmmmm , okay
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Troll Control on January 29, 2007, 12:10:19 PM
I think you forgot to mention painful joint holds as punishment in Aspen facilities, Who. Sort of just skipped over that one, huh?
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on January 29, 2007, 12:42:07 PM
Yes Cindy, just because you took right to your programming and brainwashing doesnt mean the rest of us bought into it.
Just like after your cult leaders murder someone and then try to call it something else (sickle cell anyone?) doesnt change the fact that the kids were murdered.
Its time for you to wake up Cindy.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anonymous on January 29, 2007, 12:56:22 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Hmmm....I wonder how well it would go over if a parent responded:
Wa,Wa,Wa, my parents sent me to wilderness camp for 3 weeks and they took away my ipod and cd collection and made me remove my jewelry. I had to do exercise every day and cook my own food, wa,wa,wa, and then I had to talk about my feelings?wa,wa,wa??I will get even and make up stories about how evil the place is and tell how everyone abuses the kids and I will get these places shut down? Wa,Wa,Wa,?.. every time I screw up in life I can always blame my parents for sending me to wilderness?wa,wa,wa,
You sound like an idiot who's never set foot in a program. :rofl:
Actually I think this is the twat who left awhile back to set up her own concentration camp. Guess it failed. Hope she lost a lot of money
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Troll Control on January 29, 2007, 01:08:06 PM
Quote
Its time for you to wake up Cindy
...or to take a dirt nap... either way.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anonymous on January 29, 2007, 01:26:03 PM
Wa wa wa. I had this biological need to "be" a mother. I had this uncontrolable urge to have a cute little baby who actually never asked to be born. Then wa wa wa it grew up, into a person ! Oh my god instead of getting stroked by society, instead of all the admiration and envious little old ladies, suddenly people in Wal-mart are giving me dirty looks cuz the little shit is acting up. Well I let it go on as I can then smack the little bastard who cries harder, at least until I can get the little shit home and really give him something to cry about. Then after I calm down I'll just stuff him full of fast food and video games so I can get on the phone and gossip with Marge about what a rotten day it was (that same good friend who later gave me such good counsel about "placements"). But, hell, what's this? He's a teenager you say. ALL OF A SUDDEN he is "acting out". Damn. How did he get from being a perfect angel to being a real person, OVERNIGHT? Wa wa wa, I must have been in a coma, didn't see it coming. Its only been, what 14, 15, 16 years? Better hide him fast. I'll just tell the neighbors that he is at "boarding school:". Then, thank goodness I can have a little fun and let someone else deal with that not-so-little-anymore raging bag of hormones. After all, I know those professionals aren't going to believe anything he tells them and as long as the money keeps flowing their way I'm a good parent, in their books. And the neighbors are smiling at me again. Ah yes, problem solved.
No more wa wa wa for me; that's his problem now.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on January 29, 2007, 01:35:10 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?t=20505
Yes, it does happen on a fairly regular basis.
I think you forgot to mention painful joint holds as punishment in Aspen facilities, Who. Sort of just skipped over that one, huh?
Your link shows another school and says nothing about holds which are approved at Aspen facilities. I am not sure how this ties in.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on January 29, 2007, 01:45:17 PM
Quote from: ""RobertBruce""
Yes Cindy, just because you took right to your programming and brainwashing doesnt mean the rest of us bought into it.
Just like after your cult leaders murder someone and then try to call it something else (sickle cell anyone?) doesnt change the fact that the kids were murdered.
Its time for you to wake up Cindy.
Your a mess, Bob, clean yourself up and focus. This is Fornits and we are presently talkng about TBS's.........Alt/Tab back to your Goodfellas forum on murder....log out and then come back and read a few of the past posts here and then respond again.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anonymous on January 29, 2007, 04:35:15 PM
Although I think it is really scary for parents, and I do think they are victims of program brainwashing too, I also have to disagree that you need to find a right placement for them - there are only two/three experts in a child's life, the parents and the child themselves, they are the only people who know what the child needs to grow emmotionally - even then the parents mess up and don't quite see what the kid needs
*points at self* :oops:
Exhausted
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: AtomicAnt on January 30, 2007, 12:30:21 AM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Although I think it is really scary for parents, and I do think they are victims of program brainwashing too, ... Exhausted
Brainwashed just like The Who. He has joined the ASR cult and actually believes it is okay to force a belief system onto an unwilling person.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on January 30, 2007, 01:05:27 AM
Quote
Your a mess, Bob, clean yourself up and focus. This is Fornits and we are presently talkng about TBS's.........Alt/Tab back to your Goodfellas forum on murder....log out and then come back and read a few of the past posts here and then respond again.
Cindy you've been provided with numerous examples both by me and by many others of kids who have been murdered in TBS's. I'm sorry that your programming prevents you from accepting this truth, and that you're too stupid to grasp this simple concept but once again you seem to blame me for things out of my control.
CINDY I DID NOT BRAINWASH YOU, BLAME THOSE WHO MIND FUCKED YOU, NOT ME. BLAME YOURSELF FOR BEING NOT BEING STRONG ENOUGH TO WITHSTAND IT. BLAME YOUR MOTHER FOR DROPPING YOU ON YOUR HEAD REPEATEDLY LEADING TO YOUR IRREVOCABLE BRAIN DAMAGE, NOT ME.
Seriously Cindy you need to stop looking to me as the source for everyone hating you in your life. I'm just one man, and most of this you brought on yourself. You may want to think about setting up an intervention for yourself. In the meantime if you're in the mood to be embarrased question the fact that numerous kids have been murdered in TBS's over the years. I'd be happy to put you to shame once again.
It really never gets old or any less funny.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Oz girl on January 30, 2007, 05:06:48 AM
Quote from: ""AtomicAnt""
Brainwashed just like The Who. He has joined the ASR cult and actually believes it is okay to force a belief system onto an unwilling person.
And that 18 months in an institution with nice trees and shit is not incarceration :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on January 30, 2007, 07:51:07 AM
Quote
Seriously Cindy I want you to stop looking to me as the source for everyone hating you in your life. I'm just one man, and most of this you brought on yourself. You may want to think about setting up an intervention for yourself. In the meantime if you're in the mood to be embarrased question the fact that numerous kids have been murdered in TBS's over the years. I'd be happy to put you to shame once again.
It really never gets old or any less funny.
I agree and I don?t think you have been paying attention. Murder occurs everywhere people are. The trick is to find a place that is safer or safest. I know deep in your heart you really believe there is a serial killer out there in TBS land, but he must have taken a year off. A while back we took a snapshot of a year and compared public school system to TBS?s and found TBS?s to be an order of magnitude safer. I provided you with the data and a link here is a summary.
July 1, 1999 thru June 2000
Elementary and secondary schools
At School ---21 school associated Deaths (16 Homicides,6 suicides)
Away from school (2,124 Homicides, 1,922 Suicides)
National Center for Educational Statistics
Time frame: July 1, 1999 thru June 2000 (52,000,000 students)
Public Schools:
At School --- 21 school associated Deaths (16 Homicides .00003%, 6 suicides .000012%)
Away from school (2,124 Homicides 0.0041%, 1,922 Suicides 0.0037%)
And estimated a population of 30,000 kids.
So At TBS?s the results would be:
At School --- 0 (0 Homicides, 0 suicide)
Away from School ? 1 (0 Homicides 0%, 1 Suicide 0.0033%)
So from a TBS vs National average the TBS?s had much lower rates of Suicides and Homicides for the same time period ?at school? and about the same ?away from school.?
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on January 30, 2007, 07:53:29 AM
Quote from: ""Oz girl""
Quote from: ""AtomicAnt""
Brainwashed just like The Who. He has joined the ASR cult and actually believes it is okay to force a belief system onto an unwilling person.
And that 18 months in an institution with nice trees and shit is not incarceration :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
No its not, no fences, no lock ups. The kids can leave anytime they want. Incarceration leads one to believe they are held against their will, this isnt true at ASR.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Oz girl on January 30, 2007, 08:17:12 AM
Ok who. i am a young person who has decided that ASR is not for me. The strip search was demeaning, my adored dead catholic mother always raised me to believe that confession is a sacred and private religious thing. Yet i must publically bear my soul to all and sundry on a daily basis. Some pompous baby boomer is sitting in on my so called confidental group sessions so that he can make money by advertising my woes in a book. I heard that in the boys dorm someone jerked off on the toothbrushes. (another delight of the school that your mate dave marcus wrote about) The classes are intellectually unstimulating as any book that makes me think is banned as i may independently reason. The sweat lodge stinks and I find being this physically close to my peers grossly uncomfortable. So i decide exercise my right to leave. But I have no money and my father has told me I am not welcome back home if i dont finish the programme. I am 15. I have no passport or social security card. I also do not have a highschool diploma if i leave. How would you recommend I go about walking out and making a sufficiently comfortable life for myself?
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Deborah on January 30, 2007, 08:38:45 AM
Who, don't spin the data. 1 in 1,153 deaths at programs. (15,000 participants, 13 deaths) 1 in 1,000,000 at public schools. (52,000,000 kids. 52 deaths)
I seriously doubt at this point that you are a parent and ever had a kid at ASR, and instead are an Aspen spinster. Is your story anywhere else on the internet? Why don't you post at ST?
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Oz girl on January 30, 2007, 09:04:12 AM
Quote from: ""Deborah""
Who, don't spin the data. 1 in 1,153 deaths at programs. (15,000 participants, 13 deaths) 1 in 1,000,000 at public schools. (52,000,000 kids. 52 deaths)
I seriously doubt at this point that you are a parent and ever had a kid at ASR, and instead are an Aspen spinster. Is your story anywhere else on the internet? Why don't you post at ST?
There have also been at least 3 suicides i can count
1 at cedu in 1997? 1 at spring creek lodge 1 at TB. Apparently the towel that was used to mop up the blood was recycled for the other kids to use. Good to see wwasp are environmentalists!!! Any more that people know of that who has forgotten?
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: psy on January 30, 2007, 09:36:15 AM
oh. what's more as i remember is they made the kids mop it up
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anonymous on January 30, 2007, 10:11:25 AM
ALthough not "Scientific" one might want to count suicides after kids leave. the flag at our faacility was always half mass because of "GRaduates" who dedcided to kill themselves. its really sad. maybe these kids wouldnt have done it if they werent mindfucked? maybe they wouldnt have done it if they got proper treatment and help instead of confrontation? who knows... but for whatever reason, there sure is a lot of self imposed death and pain around this industry, it might be hidden but you dig deep enough youll find that well of boiling red.. dont worry.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Charly on January 30, 2007, 10:19:49 AM
Maybe they would have done it sooner? A regular boarding school in Texas had three suicides in 2 years. A community in Plano, Texas had about 7 suicides over a couple of years- public school kids.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on January 30, 2007, 10:23:39 AM
Quote from: ""Deborah""
Who, don't spin the data. 1 in 1,153 deaths at programs. (15,000 participants, 13 deaths) 1 in 1,000,000 at public schools. (52,000,000 kids. 52 deaths)
I seriously doubt at this point that you are a parent and ever had a kid at ASR, and instead are an Aspen spinster. Is your story anywhere else on the internet? Why don't you post at ST?
Deborah, nobody is spinning the data, when we went thru this last year we didnt find any Homicides occurring at a TBS during that time period. We are not comparing deaths, we were comparing Homicides.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on January 30, 2007, 10:28:58 AM
Quote from: ""Oz girl""
Quote from: ""Deborah""
Who, don't spin the data. 1 in 1,153 deaths at programs. (15,000 participants, 13 deaths) 1 in 1,000,000 at public schools. (52,000,000 kids. 52 deaths)
I seriously doubt at this point that you are a parent and ever had a kid at ASR, and instead are an Aspen spinster. Is your story anywhere else on the internet? Why don't you post at ST?
There have also been at least 3 suicides i can count
1 at cedu in 1997? 1 at spring creek lodge 1 at TB. Apparently the towel that was used to mop up the blood was recycled for the other kids to use. Good to see wwasp are environmentalists!!! Any more that people know of that who has forgotten?
I agree, I am not disputing that kids don?t take their own lives. This is going to happen everywhere, at home, school work,TBS's etc. What we were looking at was a comparison of a specific time period, as a start, to look at rates in the public sector vs TBS's. Based on the population of TBS's and that the population of kids in TBS's are more at risk I would expect TBS to have a higher rate, but we didn?t see this.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on January 30, 2007, 10:32:00 AM
Quote from: ""Guest""
ALthough not "Scientific" one might want to count suicides after kids leave. the flag at our faacility was always half mass because of "GRaduates" who dedcided to kill themselves. its really sad. maybe these kids wouldnt have done it if they werent mindfucked? maybe they wouldnt have done it if they got proper treatment and help instead of confrontation? who knows... but for whatever reason, there sure is a lot of self imposed death and pain around this industry, it might be hidden but you dig deep enough youll find that well of boiling red.. dont worry.
Thats a good point.... if we could get the same data in the public sector it would make an interesting comparision.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on January 30, 2007, 11:25:28 AM
Sigh. Allright Cindy, I'll go get the date again, I guess you enjoy being made the fool after all.
To set the stage for those just joining us, Cindy found some figures detailing the amount of deaths in public schools between May of 2000 to June of 2001. He claimed (without checking but when does he ever) that there had been only one death during that period at the TBS's (He originally claimed that there had only been one suicide in all TBS's within a 30 year period, but then tried to take it back.) Since there are only 30,000 kids in public schools versus 52,000,000 kids in public schools the ratio for deaths was higher in the public school and thus this proved that TBS's are safer. Yesterday in ridiculing one of his pointless analogies I made mention that kids arent typically murdered in baseball camp, happens in TBS's all the time. He doubted this claim.
He's about to put to shame once again.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on January 30, 2007, 11:31:44 AM
Quote from: ""TS Waygookin""
Quote from: ""Charly""
Maybe they would have done it sooner? A regular boarding school in Texas had three suicides in 2 years. A community in Plano, Texas had about 7 suicides over a couple of years- public school kids.
At least compare the population sizes between the two schools. Don't be a "WHO"!
TSW, the population sizes were listed above the summaries for each comparison. You will notice that rates were being compared (not just the totals). Totals/Population size will give you the rate. I underlined them for you below:
Its data TSW, don?t shoot the messenger !! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Time frame: July 1, 1999 thru June 2000 (52,000,000 students)
Public Schools:
At School --- 21 school associated Deaths (16 Homicides .00003%, 6 suicides .000012%)
Away from school (2,124 Homicides 0.0041%, 1,922 Suicides 0.0037%)
And estimated a population of 30,000 kids.
So At TBS?s the results would be:
At School --- 0 (0 Homicides, 0 suicide)
Away from School ? 1 (0 Homicides 0%, 1 Suicide 0.0033%)
So from a TBS vs National average the TBS?s had much lower rates of Suicides and Homicides for the same time period ?at school? and about the same ?away from school.?
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on January 30, 2007, 11:34:07 AM
I'll give him a chance
Cindy where are you getting the figure of one TBS death in that time period?
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Deborah on January 30, 2007, 11:39:05 AM
Quote from: ""Charly""
Maybe they would have done it sooner? A regular boarding school in Texas had three suicides in 2 years. A community in Plano, Texas had about 7 suicides over a couple of years- public school kids.
Karen, teen suicide has been declining for a decade. Why would you bring up suicides that happened in 1983, before the decline?
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Charly on January 30, 2007, 11:51:57 AM
I guess it just struck me because I lived in the area. The Austin, TX suicides were in the 2000 time frame. Also, there were a few in Dallas in 2003. The rates may be declining, but it is still something that concerns me a lot.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Deborah on January 30, 2007, 11:59:25 AM
What "we" found Who, was this....
there were 32 school-associated violent deaths (table 1.1). Of these violent deaths, 24 were homicides and 8 were suicides. Sixteen of the homicides and 6 of the suicides were of school-aged youth (ages 5-19) at school (figure 1.1 and table 1.1). Combined, this translates into less than 1 homicide or suicide of a school-aged youth at school per million students enrolled during the 1999-2000 school year. http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2004/crime03/1.asp (http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2004/crime03/1.asp)
There were 22. 16 + 6 Twenty-two H/S out of 52,000,000 kids. That's 1 in 2,363
Only 5 more than occured in the industry.
1 in 1,154 deaths in programs. ~~
Then your argument became that the preventable deaths in programs weren't 'homicides' because no one was charged in those deaths.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on January 30, 2007, 12:08:12 PM
Of course they arent Deborah, don't be stupid. If you kill someone and get away with it isn't murder, it's an accident! The best way to manipulate that is to claim that the little bastard died of some disease he never actually had (this can usually best be done by hiring your own ME), you'll also need to plan on suing the parents, make sure they never talk about it. Afterall you cant have these bad parents who raised a shitty kid going around spreading nasty rumors about us. Silly disgruntled parents.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Troll Control on January 30, 2007, 12:20:45 PM
I hate to see this bologna spun up again by The Who. The Who has not the slightest clue as to what represents valid data, nor the statistical regression or significance of same. It's pointless to argue a point that is not understood by one of the debaters. The Who does not understand this material and therefore cannot form a logical conclusion based thereupon. It's fruitless.
Also, The Who's representations of "zero homicides and one suicide" at TBS's is completely false. One needs to look no further than ISACCORP.org's list of dead kids. That destroys the premise of The Who's argument and therefor invalidates any conclusion based upon the faulty data.
Remember, this is the same guy who stated that there are "10,000 practicing psychologists" in the US of A and that the "vast majority" of them refer to TBS's. Now, this is ridiculous on a copuple of levels. One, there are over one hundred thousand practicing psychologists curently working in the US of A and it is well-known that only a tiny fraction thereof refer to "TBS," "EG" or "BM" facilities.
The Who is a person who likes to argue for arguments sake, not for clarification of data or edificatiopn of the reader. Just keep that in mind when you deal with him - he's oftentimes nonsensical, especially with "facts and figures."
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on January 30, 2007, 12:24:06 PM
No different than the time he claimed HLA not having a school nurse wasnt a problem. This guy is an idiot.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Troll Control on January 30, 2007, 12:27:30 PM
You say "idiot." I say "nonsensical." The point is the same: The Who is so ignorant that he's too ignorant to know he ignorant.
Debating someone like this is like taking on a one-legged man in an ass-kicking contest.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on January 30, 2007, 12:36:13 PM
Quote from: ""Deborah""
What "we" found Who, was this....
there were 32 school-associated violent deaths (table 1.1). Of these violent deaths, 24 were homicides and 8 were suicides. Sixteen of the homicides and 6 of the suicides were of school-aged youth (ages 5-19) at school (figure 1.1 and table 1.1). Combined, this translates into less than 1 homicide or suicide of a school-aged youth at school per million students enrolled during the 1999-2000 school year. http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2004/crime03/1.asp (http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2004/crime03/1.asp)
There were 22. 16 + 6 Twenty-two H/S out of 52,000,000 kids. That's 1 in 2,363
Only 5 more than occured in the industry.
1 in 1,154 deaths in programs. ~~
Then your argument became that the preventable deaths in programs weren't 'homicides' because no one was charged in those deaths.
Exactly, I think where we ended up was there was no data in the public school system for ?preventable Deaths? to compare to. They needed to be classified as ?Homicides? or ?Suicides? (for this study). The rate for preventable deaths may well be far greater in TBS than in public schools but the data isn?t available to compare. So it wouldn?t be accurate to compare total deaths in programs to just homicides and suicides in industry. So we only had 1 suicide that we could add to the population for comparison.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Troll Control on January 30, 2007, 12:39:33 PM
See post two positions above. More bologna.
With TheWho, a piece of cheese and two pieces of bread, one could make a Guiness world record bologna sandwich.
He stacks it higher and higher as he goes...
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on January 30, 2007, 12:41:13 PM
Quote from: ""RobertBruce""
Of course they arent Deborah, don't be stupid. If you kill someone and get away with it isn't murder, it's an accident! The best way to manipulate that is to claim that the little bastard died of some disease he never actually had (this can usually best be done by hiring your own ME), you'll also need to plan on suing the parents, make sure they never talk about it. Afterall you cant have these bad parents who raised a shitty kid going around spreading nasty rumors about us. Silly disgruntled parents.
Dont get mad because you couldnt come up with any data, Bob, and dont call Deborah stupid. We are all talking about data not peoples opinions. You must be a blast in meetings......oh,oh,oh I'm going to prove you wrong... after about an hour of that crap I am sure they send you out for coffee. Clean yourself up and try to contribute something.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on January 30, 2007, 12:44:41 PM
Quote
So we only had 1 suicide that we could add to the population for comparison.
No Cindy, you only had one suicide, there have been many many more. You're just unwilling or too stupid to recognize the facts.
On this board alone I could cite for you three examples of kids who were murdered. Are you really so brainwashed you can't see the facts staring you right in the face?
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on January 30, 2007, 12:50:46 PM
Quote
Dont get mad because you couldnt come up with any data, Bob, and dont call Deborah stupid. We are all talking about data not peoples opinions. You must be a blast in meetings......oh,oh,oh I'm going to prove you wrong... after about an hour of that crap I am sure they send you out for coffee. Clean yourself up and try to contribute something.
Riiiiiiiight.........this coming from the guy who cannot back up a single claim to save his life. The thing is this Cindy, I've backed up all of my claims, you refuse to. I'm not posting my opinions I'm posting facts. If you need to see it again please let me know, I'd be happy to share it with you again. In the meantime, this is the second time you've told me to "clean myself up" I assure you Cindy personal hygeine is very important to me and I always bathe at least once a day. You however seem to be obsessed with my cleanliness, does this have to do with your tendency to blame all the attacks against you on me? Or maybe you suffer from OCD? I suppose we could chalk that up among all your other little quirks, right next to being a horrible father and raping animals.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on January 30, 2007, 12:50:58 PM
Quote from: ""RobertBruce""
Quote
So we only had 1 suicide that we could add to the population for comparison.
No Cindy, you only had one suicide, there have been many many more. You're just unwilling or too stupid to recognize the facts.
On this board alone I could cite for you three examples of kids who were murdered. Are you really so brainwashed you can't see the facts staring you right in the face?
Then add them to the data set, Bob, and we will recalculate the rates.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anonymous on January 30, 2007, 12:52:23 PM
Dear Who: fuck you, fuck your so-called statistics and fuck the pompous hot air blowing out your ass. CEDU kiled my daughter. Whether it happened while she was there or later doesn't matter. Whether it would have happened anyway somewhere else doesn't matter. She was forced into it, tortured, humiliated and played with. By the time I was able to get her out the damage was done. So while you are didling yourself on this site kids are being violated I only wish I had had the time and resources then to sue the shit out of them. At least the judge, who was horrified, royally reamed out the headmaster and the so-called dad who instigated it.
There really are people in authority who are appalled by these places; we have to get the information to the right people and I am working on that.
This is the only time I'm going to respond to your bloated self-important ignorance. I wish everyone would just ignore the twit.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on January 30, 2007, 12:56:28 PM
Quote
Then add them to the data set, Bob, and we will recalculate the rates.
Are you asking me to do your homework Cindy? Maybe I'll employ the same tactic you do and not back up my claim. Instead I'll tell you since you're interested you can look it up yourself.
Then again proving you wrong is worth the extra work.......
Ryan Lewis age 14 killed himself Feb 13th 2001 Allredge Academy
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anonymous on January 30, 2007, 12:57:03 PM
This will be my last post on the subject as well. Back. On. Topic.
17 kids were killed by programs during that timeframe, Who.
At School --- 17 school associated Deaths (17 Homicides .056%, 0 suicides = 0%)
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on January 30, 2007, 12:58:05 PM
January 6th 2006 Martin Lee Anderson died after guards at a Florida Juvenile Boot Camp beat him to death. This is the one that they pretended was caused by sickle cell.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on January 30, 2007, 12:59:33 PM
Angellika Ardnt murdered by staff for blowing bubbles in her milk, Rice Lake treatment center.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on January 30, 2007, 01:15:25 PM
Come on pay attention:
The data set we are working with is :
TBS's -- Homicides and suicides
Time frame: July 1, 1999 thru June 2000
There have been many deaths in and out of TBS's, I agree, but we need to stay within the time frame.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on January 30, 2007, 01:16:26 PM
Alexander Youth Services Lakeisha Brown died of a blood clot to the lungs. When she complained to the staff of chest pain they accused her of "manipulating" and sent her on her way. I've got run some errands for now Cindy but you let me know if you need some more.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on January 30, 2007, 01:17:50 PM
Quote
There have been many deaths in and out of TBS's, I agree, but we need to stay within the time frame.
Oh no no no Cindy, you doubted murders occur in TBS's. So you're going to be properly educated. Try and pay attention. Your other claims about public schools and certain time periods have already been disproven by Deborah anyway, no need to rehash.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on January 30, 2007, 01:20:39 PM
Quote from: ""RobertBruce""
Alexander Youth Services Lakeisha Brown died of a blood clot to the lungs. When she complained to the staff of chest pain they accused her of "manipulating" and sent her on her way. I've got run some errands for now Cindy but you let me know if you need some more.
That was in April of 2005 which is outside of the studys parameters.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on January 30, 2007, 01:23:23 PM
Quote from: ""RobertBruce""
Quote
There have been many deaths in and out of TBS's, I agree, but we need to stay within the time frame.
Oh no no no Cindy, you doubted murders occur in TBS's. So you're going to be properly educated. Try and pay attention. Your other claims about public schools and certain time periods have already been disproven by Deborah anyway, no need to rehash.
No, the data holds.
You still havent showed me 1 within the time frame. I am willing to add any that you give us.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: exhausted on January 30, 2007, 01:43:02 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Dear Who: fuck you, fuck your so-called statistics and fuck the pompous hot air blowing out your ass. CEDU kiled my daughter. Whether it happened while she was there or later doesn't matter. Whether it would have happened anyway somewhere else doesn't matter. She was forced into it, tortured, humiliated and played with. By the time I was able to get her out the damage was done. So while you are didling yourself on this site kids are being violated I only wish I had had the time and resources then to sue the shit out of them. At least the judge, who was horrified, royally reamed out the headmaster and the so-called dad who instigated it.
There really are people in authority who are appalled by these places; we have to get the information to the right people and I am working on that.
This is the only time I'm going to respond to your bloated self-important ignorance. I wish everyone would just ignore the twit.
Before I say anything, I am truly sorry for your loss, but had to respond to your post...
Do you not feel the Dad was responsible for sending her in the 1st place? Like not doing his homework on what really happens there? Or do you feel he was, as my previous post stated, that the parents are as taken in as everyone else? This is a genuine question not an attack on anyone
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Troll Control on January 30, 2007, 01:49:48 PM
Chula Vista New Alternatives
(private residential care facility) Kristal Mayon-Ceniceros, 16-year-old, died of respiratory arrest
face put down on floor arms and legs restrained by 4 staff members
February 5, 1999/AP Wire
OK, Who, here's one for you. I know you hate to see it, but you're just dead (no pun intended) wrong again (and again, and again...)
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on January 30, 2007, 01:53:08 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Chula Vista New Alternatives
(private residential care facility) Kristal Mayon-Ceniceros, 16-year-old, died of respiratory arrest
face put down on floor arms and legs restrained by 4 staff members
February 5, 1999/AP Wire
OK, Who, here's one for you. I know you hate to see it, but you're just dead (no pun intended) wrong again (and again, and again...)
Again -- look at the time frame we are comparing :
Time frame: July 1, 1999 thru June 2000
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Troll Control on January 30, 2007, 01:54:27 PM
Willie Wright,14 March 4, 2000 Southwest Mental Health Center, San Antonio
Physical restraint death.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Troll Control on January 30, 2007, 01:57:24 PM
Randy Steele, 9 February 6, 2000 Laurel Ridge Hospital, San Antonio
Physical restraint death
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on January 30, 2007, 01:58:56 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Willie Wright,14 March 4, 2000 Southwest Mental Health Center, San Antonio
Physical restraint death.
Great! Was this classified as a Homicide or Suicide? Was it at a TBS? If so we can add it. It doesnt sound like a TBS, though.
I will take this one and look it up if you want.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Troll Control on January 30, 2007, 02:01:17 PM
"TBS" refers only to unlicensed facilities. Licened one's are forbidden to call themselves "schools," so they are called RCF or RTC. Only unregulated facilities are called "TBS."
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Troll Control on January 30, 2007, 02:04:21 PM
"A fateful decision that would ultimately cost Michael his life on February 5, 2000 and raise disturbing questions about who or what let "Mikey" down. The juvenile justice system which existed for his benefit but failed to protect him; the many doctors he had seen over the past 7 years or the camp counselor that restrained him."
Woops! Another dead kid The Who claims doesn't exist.
Look, Who, the information is there. The problem is that you've drawn conclusions based on your data, not objectively verafiable (i.e. REAL) data.
You just don't know what you're talking about at all.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anonymous on January 30, 2007, 02:06:44 PM
Why have you let yourselves get sucked into his semantic games?
I think I'm gonna whip out another guest post of the original topic pretty soon.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Troll Control on January 30, 2007, 02:08:52 PM
Sabrina E. Day, 15
(R) North Carolina Group Home
February 10, 2000
Candace Newmaker, 10
(R) Evergreen Attachment Center
April 18, 2000
William "Eddie" Lee, 15
Obsidian Trails Wilderness Camp
September 18, 2000
Restraint Death
Dionte Pickens, 14 Three Springs Detention
October 2000
Restraint Death
Boy, the more you look, the more you find, huh? This should tell anyone reading that The Who hasn't looked, nor does he care to, as his position disintegrates...
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Troll Control on January 30, 2007, 02:12:59 PM
Who, read this list of word slowly:
EYE
YAM
SOFA
KING
WEE
TOT
HEAD
Get it yet???
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on January 30, 2007, 02:22:07 PM
you have shown me wilderness camp deaths, deaths at group homes. But what we are looking at are Homicides and suicides within the time frame (below) at Therapeutic Boarding Schools. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ So we are still at :
Time frame: July 1, 1999 thru June 2000 (52,000,000 students)
At School --- 21 school associated Deaths (16 Homicides .00003%, 6 suicides .000012%)
Away from school (2,124 Homicides 0.0041%, 1,922 Suicides 0.0037%)
And estimated a population of 30,000 kids.
So At TBS?s the results would be:
At School --- 0 (0 Homicides, 0 suicide)
Away from School ? 1 (0 Homicides 0%, 1 Suicide 0.0033%)
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anonymous on January 30, 2007, 02:25:30 PM
You are missing the forest for the trees...
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on January 30, 2007, 02:39:24 PM
I think what many are struggling with are deaths which could/should have been prevented. We could add another category called ?Preventable deaths? and add those occurrences which were not officially called a homicide but should have been prevented, i.e. restraints etc. Then we could track these separately.
We think would still want to categorize them, i.e. Wilderness, detention centers, boot camp, hospital, TBS etc. So we can see what is going on and track any trends.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Troll Control on January 30, 2007, 02:47:41 PM
Who, please, shut your fucking trap about "data" and "tracking." You have been owned over and over again, yet here you are still banging your head on a rock.
Once you learn what "data" actually is, maybe you can learn to "track" it. Until then you're just the same old half-hippie dipshit sellout that's been circling the drain since the first day you showed up. Do us a favor and flush yourself.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on January 30, 2007, 02:58:21 PM
Relax,?..It was just a suggestion. Everyone seemed frustrated (as I can see you are) and throwing names out of kids that died who were in hospitals and mental health treatment centers, wilderness etc. and wanted the kids to be counted. I agree 100% they should be. By excluding them I am not saying they are unimportant, they are just not part of this study. If no one is interested in tracking these types of deaths then fine, I am not here to force this on anyone.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Troll Control on January 30, 2007, 03:14:20 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Relax,?..It was just a suggestion. Everyone seemed frustrated (as I can see you are) and throwing names out of kids that died who were in hospitals and mental health treatment centers, wilderness etc. and wanted the kids to be counted. I agree 100% they should be. By excluding them I am not saying they are unimportant, they are just not part of this study. If no one is interested in tracking these types of deaths then fine, I am not here to force this on anyone.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Oz girl on January 30, 2007, 04:07:29 PM
So who why dont you tell us all again how a kid whose family is comitted to a programme like ASR can leave at any time when they are underage with nowhere else to go? How without taking the option of being homeless and down and out would they go about it? Where would they live? What would they do for education, food and money?
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on January 30, 2007, 04:27:25 PM
Quote from: ""Oz girl""
So who why dont you tell us all again how a kid whose family is comitted to a programme like ASR can leave at any time when they are underage with nowhere else to go? How without taking the option of being homeless and down and out would they go about it? Where would they live? What would they do for education, food and money?
Good question, OZ Girl. I asked my daughter where she had planned to go if she succeeded in running away. She respond by saying she really didn?t have a plan but just was frustrated with the rules and just wanted to get out and take a walk and probably would have come back on her own anyway after awhile. But other kids sat around and said if they took off they would probably head to a friends house or sympathetic mother or father if they were divorced. There is a store about a half mile away where they could call someone to come get them. But other than a friends house most did not have any further plans. As far as supporting themselves, personally I believe they would have a tough time especially since many of them are use to a pretty good life style. But this would apply if they were living at home and were planning on running away they would face the same dilemma. I don?t think many kids have much of an option until they turn 18, most kids will stay where they are unless they are being abused or feeling threatened or unsafe, in this case they would just pack up and leave, never look back, without any plan at all.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Troll Control on January 30, 2007, 04:41:38 PM
Quote
I don?t think many kids have much of an option until they turn 18, most kids will stay where they are unless they are being abused or feeling threatened or unsafe, in this case they would just pack up and leave, never look back, without any plan at all.
More bologna for that sandwich. These kids cannot leave, even if they want to. The staff tell them things like "your parents don't want you and that's why you're here" or "if you walk down that road, the cops will be arresting you" or "you'll end up raped and dead by the side of the road" or "I will beat the evr-loving shit out of you and when the cops come I'll tell them you attacked me and they'll never believe a little shit like you over me!" etc, etc, etc, etc.
So, Who, you're absolutely wrong. Almost every single kid sits there in despair and tolerates the abuse so their parents will "love them again" and let them come home.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on January 30, 2007, 04:49:20 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote
I don?t think many kids have much of an option until they turn 18, most kids will stay where they are unless they are being abused or feeling threatened or unsafe, in this case they would just pack up and leave, never look back, without any plan at all.
More bologna for that sandwich. These kids cannot leave, even if they want to. The staff tell them things like "your parents don't want you and that's why you're here" or "if you walk down that road, the cops will be arresting you" or "you'll end up raped and dead by the side of the road" or "I will beat the evr-loving shit out of you and when the cops come I'll tell them you attacked me and they'll never believe a little shit like you over me!" etc, etc, etc, etc.
So, Who, you're absolutely wrong. Almost every single kid sits there in despair and tolerates the abuse so their parents will "love them again" and let them come home.
Your parents don?t want you??..you will get raped?........The cops will arrest you?.......Dead by the side of the road??.I will beat the sh_t out of you ?..... It is obvious you don?t know ASR very well or are new here. You have no idea what you are talking about. I met most of the counselors.. The kids don?t need to run away all they have to do is break one of their rules too many times and you get kicked out. So why bother running anyway?
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Troll Control on January 30, 2007, 05:01:49 PM
You're mistaken, Who. I am intimately familiar with ASR and the tactics they use to control residents. You have no idea what goes on when the staff is alone with your kid.
Anybody who ever worked at any one of these places can tell you that this is precisely what the staff do and say.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on January 30, 2007, 05:08:58 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
You're mistaken, Who. I am intimately familiar with ASR and the tactics they use to control residents. You have no idea what goes on when the staff is alone with your kid.
Anybody who ever worked at any one of these places can tell you that this is precisely what the staff do and say.
You can post what you like to ........ But it is not true I have met the counselors and talked to many students who graduated, you have no idea what you are talking about....it is not even close to how they handle the situation. My daughter tried to run away while she was there so I know first hand, no need to try to convince me otherwise.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Troll Control on January 30, 2007, 05:09:42 PM
Your beloved Rudy Bentz himself told a black kid that he'll quickly "find out what the locals think of niggers around here. You'll be lucky to make it to the morning." And he was the headmaster.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anonymous on January 30, 2007, 05:12:07 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Your beloved Rudy Bentz himself told a black kid that he'll quickly "find out what the locals think of niggers around here. You'll be lucky to make it to the morning." And he was the headmaster.
:lol:
Hey Guest, mind heading over to the Aspen board and dealing with some of the un-people over there?
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Troll Control on January 30, 2007, 05:13:35 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Quote from: ""Guest""
You're mistaken, Who. I am intimately familiar with ASR and the tactics they use to control residents. You have no idea what goes on when the staff is alone with your kid.
Anybody who ever worked at any one of these places can tell you that this is precisely what the staff do and say.
You can post what you like to ........ But it is not true I have met the counselors and talked to many students who graduated, you have no idea what you are talking about....it is not even close to how they handle the situation. My daughter tried to run away while she was there so I know first hand, no need to try to convince me otherwise.
Nobody's trying to convince you of anything. That's a waste of time because you're a moron.
This is for other parents who you try to rope in with your nonsense.
You can believe what you want, but I know exactly what happens there, behind closed doors when nobody else is around. Not only does it happen, it's taught by the top staff.
Seriously, Who, you'll never know anything like what the kids and staff know. You get the sterilized version for parental unit consumption, not the straight dope. Again, anyone who has ever been to ASR or worked at ASR knows the parental bots are fed only what they want to hear.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on January 30, 2007, 05:15:13 PM
TheWho wrote:
Quote
You can post what you like to ........ so long as it doesn't disagree with what I've been told to think and say. It doesn't matter to me that it's all true I have seen pictures of the counselors and heard they have many students who graduated, you have no idea what you are talking about....it is not even close to how they handle the situation. My daughter tried to run away while she was there, luckily they caught and beat the living shit out of her., it was okay though I told them I had wanted to do that to her a long time, this conversation took place while I watched her strip search, so I know first hand, no need to try to convince me otherwise, cause I'm not interested in learning the truth about anything anyway.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Troll Control on January 30, 2007, 05:23:24 PM
Yeah, that about sums it up. With a freak like The Who, there's no learning. "I-am-a-robotic-mechanized-denial-machine-programmed-to-self-destruct-upon-cognitive-dissonance. Can-not-compute! Can-not-compute! Warning! Warning!! Dissonance! Must-destroy-reality-to-avoid-truth!"
Fucking dum-dum.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on January 30, 2007, 05:23:47 PM
Cindy accept it, you've been owned. Continue to believe your own programmed delusion if you like but at the very least recognize you're the only one. Deborah provided the stats for the year you seem so fixated on, we've all given you numerous examples of kids who were killed in TBS's, and still you want to pretend it isnt so. If the subject matter wasn't so morbid it would almost be comical, you stomping your little feet trying desperatly to split hairs.
"Did the little bastard die on a thursday? Was he wearing a clown costume? Had he eaten pudding that day? If not then he wasn't murdered it was a preventable homicide"
You're no different then the sick fucks who kill these kids, claiming things like "sickle cell" or "excitable heart syndrome".
Continue to delude yourself for our amusement if you like but you've lost, accept that or move on. Either way parents will now see one more reason why they shouldnt send their kids to these dangerous places.
Thanks for bring this topic to the forefront Cindy. You've been a big help.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on January 30, 2007, 05:48:21 PM
Quote from: ""RobertBruce""
Cindy accept it, you've been owned. Continue to believe your own programmed delusion if you like but at the very least recognize you're the only one. Deborah provided the stats for the year you seem so fixated on, we've all given you numerous examples of kids who were killed in TBS's, and still you want to pretend it isnt so. If the subject matter wasn't so morbid it would almost be comical, you stomping your little feet trying desperatly to split hairs.
"Did the little bastard die on a thursday? Was he wearing a clown costume? Had he eaten pudding that day? If not then he wasn't murdered it was a preventable homicide"
You're no different then the sick fucks who kill these kids, claiming things like "sickle cell" or "excitable heart syndrome".
Continue to delude yourself for our amusement if you like but you've lost, accept that or move on. Either way parents will now see one more reason why they shouldnt send their kids to these dangerous places.
Thanks for bring this topic to the forefront Cindy. You've been a big help.
You are welcome!!!
Well Thanks for your contribution, Bob, I think, what did you contribute again?. I can see I hit a nerve with all that dialog you gave us. Did you ever find another data point for our data set like you mentioned? Didn?t think so......... Only kidding, the data speaks for itself, anyway, I think that is the point you missed. I am just providing it for you. Sorry if it hurts your perception of TBS's, though.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Oz girl on January 30, 2007, 05:55:11 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
I don?t think many kids have much of an option until they turn 18, most kids will stay where they are unless they are being abused or feeling threatened or unsafe, in this case they would just pack up and leave, never look back, without any plan at all.
If most kids dont have a real option to leave till they are 18, then they are not free to go at any time at all. Thus they are living in a prison. it just does not have barbed wire fences.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: psy on January 30, 2007, 06:01:37 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Quote from: ""RobertBruce""
Cindy accept it, you've been owned. Continue to believe your own programmed delusion if you like but at the very least recognize you're the only one. Deborah provided the stats for the year you seem so fixated on, we've all given you numerous examples of kids who were killed in TBS's, and still you want to pretend it isnt so. If the subject matter wasn't so morbid it would almost be comical, you stomping your little feet trying desperatly to split hairs.
"Did the little bastard die on a thursday? Was he wearing a clown costume? Had he eaten pudding that day? If not then he wasn't murdered it was a preventable homicide"
You're no different then the sick fucks who kill these kids, claiming things like "sickle cell" or "excitable heart syndrome".
Continue to delude yourself for our amusement if you like but you've lost, accept that or move on. Either way parents will now see one more reason why they shouldnt send their kids to these dangerous places.
Thanks for bring this topic to the forefront Cindy. You've been a big help.
You are welcome!!!
Well Thanks for your contribution, Bob, I think, what did you contribute again?. I can see I hit a nerve with all that dialog you gave us. Did you ever find another data point for our data set like you mentioned? Didn?t think so......... Only kidding, the data speaks for itself, anyway, I think that is the point you missed. I am just providing it for you. Sorry if it hurts your perception of TBS's, though.
Hey lady. I know a kid where i went who comitted suicide in program. (that's not counting the many, many attempts) That's one. And i know another one who did just after "graduation". So somewhere you're perception of things is off. I think most kids who went to program know at least one suicide.
Btw. Why do you people continue to feed this troll.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on January 30, 2007, 06:06:45 PM
Quote from: ""Oz girl""
Quote from: ""TheWho""
I don?t think many kids have much of an option until they turn 18, most kids will stay where they are unless they are being abused or feeling threatened or unsafe, in this case they would just pack up and leave, never look back, without any plan at all.
If most kids dont have a real option to leave till they are 18, then they are not free to go at any time at all. Thus they are living in a prison. it just does not have barbed wire fences.
Well I think it is like any place else, boarding school, living at home either way you dont have any otpions until you are 18, I think it could be called a prison is you like. But it goes for everyplace a kid is until he is of age.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Charly on January 30, 2007, 06:07:17 PM
OzGirl- The same could be said by a teen living in the home. Many teens hate their parents and home life, but really can't live on their own so they stay. In my view, if they stay in the home, they have to adhere to basic rules and show consideration for other family members. Having to live at home due to lack of options isn't a whole lot different from being at a TBS where you theoretically can walk off, but where would you go? A boy posted on the Carlbrook thread a long time ago (Ben Sturgess) who did just that- he walked off when he turned 18, and admitted that Carlbrook was better than the life he had on his own at that point. He hated Carlbrook and found it worthless in his case, but it was a bed and walls at least, which was more than he had on his own.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Charly on January 30, 2007, 06:08:12 PM
Sorry, Who. We cross-posted.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on January 30, 2007, 06:11:26 PM
Quote
You are welcome!!!
Well Thanks for your contribution, Bob, I think, what did you contribute again?. I can see I hit a nerve with all that dialog you gave us. Did you ever find another data point for our data set like you mentioned? Didn?t think so......... Only kidding, the data speaks for itself, anyway, I think that is the point you missed. I am just providing it for you. Sorry if it hurts your perception of TBS's, though.
*YAWN* Cindy you couldnt hit a nerve if it had a bullseye drawn on it. You seem to be familiar with the old addage "The truth hurts"? You've had the truth thrown at you many times, it would appear that we are the ones hitting the nerve with you. If you would just accept the way things are and the truth about things it would be much easier for and much less painfull. As to my data, I'm sorry you missed the multiple examples thrown at you already but we cannot make it any simplier for you. Maybe if we drew some pictures for you. Would that help? You are right about one thing though:
Quote
the data speaks for itself
That it does Cindy that it does. Hence why we were proven to be right and you were proven to be wrong. You seem to have forgotten your claim that no kids were murdered in TBS's. Are you going to claim that after the numerous examples provided to just today alone that your claim can still somehow stand? If so you really are dumber than I thought, and may want to see a nuerologist and a psychologist as soon as possible.
Now that the issue of kids being murdered in TBS's has been settled if you have a seperate point you'd like to bring up I'd be more than happy to embarr....err umm I mean discuss the matter with you.
Oh and....
Quote
Sorry if it hurts your perception of TBS's, though
Oh it didn't, in fact it only reinforced my perception that has apparently always been dead the fuck on. Honestly Cindy I had no idea how many kids had been murdered at these places until you came around. Thanks again sunshine.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: psy on January 30, 2007, 06:16:04 PM
Quote from: ""Charly""
OzGirl- The same could be said by a teen living in the home. Many teens hate their parents and home life, but really can't live on their own so they stay. In my view, if they stay in the home, they have to adhere to basic rules and show consideration for other family members.
That's reasonable. As long as the rules are reasonable. For example: If a parent decided that a daughter could not date anybody until the age of 25... that would be ... just begging for a pregnancy.
Quote
Having to live at home due to lack of options isn't a whole lot different from being at a TBS where you theoretically can walk off, but where would you go? A boy posted on the Carlbrook thread a long time ago (Ben Sturgess) who did just that- he walked off when he turned 18, and admitted that Carlbrook was better than the life he had on his own at that point. He hated Carlbrook and found it worthless in his case, but it was a bed and walls at least, which was more than he had on his own.
Yeah that happens. Living on the streets is no party... and program appears to provide a way out. It's a mirage most of the time (unless you'd make a good sucess story)... but when you're cold and hungry it sounds allright. especially since the (usually verbal/emotional) abuse becomes normal after a while.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on January 30, 2007, 06:22:11 PM
At least we agree,Bob, that the data speaks for itself and to date this what we have, if this proves your case great! :
Time frame: July 1, 1999 thru June 2000 (52,000,000 students)
At School --- 21 school associated Deaths (16 Homicides .00003%, 6 suicides .000012%)
Away from school (2,124 Homicides 0.0041%, 1,922 Suicides 0.0037%)
And estimated a population of 30,000 kids.
So At TBS?s the results would be:
At School --- 0 (0 Homicides, 0 suicide)
Away from School ? 1 (0 Homicides 0%, 1 Suicide 0.0033%)
So from a TBS vs National average the TBS?s had much lower rates of Suicides and Homicides for the same time period ?at school? and about the same ?away from school.?
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anonymous on January 30, 2007, 06:26:30 PM
I didn't intend to respond any more to this shit, but it's just so easy...
There are 30,000 kids at programs, Who. Not at TBSes. And you're totally forgetting the fact that TBSes send kids away to wilderness programs to be killed.
Time frame: July 1, 1999 thru June 2000 (52,000,000 students)
At School --- 21 school associated Deaths (16 Homicides .00003%, 6 suicides .000012%)
Away from school (2,124 Homicides 0.0041%, 1,922 Suicides 0.0037%)
And estimated a population of 30,000 kids.
So at programs the results would be:
At School --- 17 school associated Deaths (17 Homicides .056%, 0 suicides = 0%)
Away from School ? 1 (0 Homicides 0%, 1 Suicide 0.0033%)
So from a program vs National average the programs had much higher rates of Suicides and Homicides for the same time period ?at school? and about the same ?away from school?, even though programs never let the kids out.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anne Bonney on January 30, 2007, 06:27:20 PM
This was just posted over on the Straight forum. Maia's good. She's got the parents pegged.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on January 30, 2007, 06:30:04 PM
The battling data!!!! My final offer!!!
Time frame: July 1, 1999 thru June 2000 (52,000,000 students)
At School --- 21 school associated Deaths (16 Homicides .00003%, 6 suicides .000012%)
Away from school (2,124 Homicides 0.0041%, 1,922 Suicides 0.0037%)
And estimated a population of 30,000 kids.
So At TBS?s the results would be:
At School --- 0 (0 Homicides, 0 suicide)
Away from School ? 1 (0 Homicides 0%, 1 Suicide 0.0033%)
So from a TBS vs National average the TBS?s had much lower rates of Suicides and Homicides for the same time period ?at school? and about the same ?away from school.?
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anonymous on January 30, 2007, 06:30:16 PM
program parents are out on full PR control trying to justify the unjustifiable... its obvious they arent trying to convince anyone here other than themselves.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on January 30, 2007, 06:33:29 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
At least we agree,Bob, that the data speaks for itself and to date this what we have, if this proves your case great! :
Time frame: July 1, 1999 thru June 2000 (52,000,000 students)
At School --- 21 school associated Deaths (16 Homicides .00003%, 6 suicides .000012%)
Away from school (2,124 Homicides 0.0041%, 1,922 Suicides 0.0037%)
And estimated a population of 30,000 kids.
So At TBS?s the results would be:
At School --- 0 (0 Homicides, 0 suicide)
Away from School ? 1 (0 Homicides 0%, 1 Suicide 0.0033%)
So from a TBS vs National average the TBS?s had much lower rates of Suicides and Homicides for the same time period ?at school? and about the same ?away from school.?
Cindy Cindy Cindy youre like a child...a blind brain dead child but a child none the less. I've made it abundantly clear to you that the matter we are currently addressing dealt with your claim that no kids had ever been murdered at TBS's. If you need help with this just ask, there's really no shame. Now as it stands I and others have proven you wrong several times over, we've given you a number of examples of kids who were in fact murdered at TBS's. Again if you need help just ask.
This other matter you're so obsessed...from the look of things Deborah and Milk have effectivly shut you down on that matter as well. Since you've shown you hate to acknowledge when you've been proven wrong I'm wondering why youre even still pressing the issue. Afterall you've already lost.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on January 30, 2007, 06:59:12 PM
Sorry,Bob, I think I have been very clear with my position that homicide, suicide, rape and crime in general is going to happen anywhere where people and kids are, there are no exceptions. If you have a post where I state otherwise let me see it and I will rescind it.
As for the data at hand, Deborah and I went thru this a year ago and came to an impasse on some deaths that occurred that were not classified as homicides but she felt they should have been included. I thought a reasonable solution would be to create a category called ?Preventable Deaths? which may include restraints etc. You may say you win, I win it doesn?t matter to me. Data is data, if you want to include wilderness data , it can be expanded to include other types of schools also. I only contend that the data I presented compares TBS to Public schools, that?s what we were working on and that?s what the data speaks to.
I am sorry if this upsets so many people, but we just cant fudge the data to please peoples agenda, you will lose credibility and the data will be useless.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anonymous on January 30, 2007, 07:02:01 PM
click back 50 pages and you can't tell the diffenrece between this conversation and then. you are all going in circles.. and you think a parent is going to get this far in a thread? lol.. dont pretend you are having these discussions for the benefit of others.. it gets old.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Oz girl on January 30, 2007, 07:22:48 PM
Quote from: ""Charly""
OzGirl- The same could be said by a teen living in the home. Many teens hate their parents and home life, but really can't live on their own so they stay. In my view, if they stay in the home, they have to adhere to basic rules and show consideration for other family members. Having to live at home due to lack of options isn't a whole lot different from being at a TBS where you theoretically can walk off, but where would you go? A boy posted on the Carlbrook thread a long time ago (Ben Sturgess) who did just that- he walked off when he turned 18, and admitted that Carlbrook was better than the life he had on his own at that point. He hated Carlbrook and found it worthless in his case, but it was a bed and walls at least, which was more than he had on his own.
And here is the thing. Most reasonable homes do not run like TBS. Because to take Carlbrook and ASR as examples the rules are in no way reasonable, simple and fair in the way that they are with most decent parents. They are often complex, odd and difficult for a teen to follow. If the goal is to get a rebellious teen to understand that rules exist for the good of society, then it makes not sense to ban things like wholesome friendships which ASR has a documented history of doing. it makes no sense to ban reading and instead force a kid to book "appointments" with his peers every night where he is told what can and cant be discussed. It makes no sense to ban exercise when the kid is an athlete or force it to the point of exhaustion on a recovering drug addict. it certainly makes no sense to punish a kid and socially ostricise them when they leave a school with their parents permission because they are "letting the team down" as Carlbrook did to your son.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: teachback on January 30, 2007, 07:41:59 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Who, please, shut your fucking trap about "data" and "tracking." You have been owned over and over again, yet here you are still banging your head on a rock.
Once you learn what "data" actually is, maybe you can learn to "track" it. Until then you're just the same old half-hippie dipshit sellout that's been circling the drain since the first day you showed up. Do us a favor and flush yourself.
I could tell you all a little something about data tracking.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on January 30, 2007, 07:42:02 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
click back 50 pages and you can't tell the diffenrece between this conversation and then. you are all going in circles.. and you think a parent is going to get this far in a thread? lol.. dont pretend you are having these discussions for the benefit of others.. it gets old.
Yeah ?.have to say you are right, tough crowd today, round and around. Sometimes you have to take the long road to get through to some people and these were just basic ?base line? numbers. Imagine trying to get consensus on developing a next step or an action plan!
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anonymous on January 30, 2007, 07:42:44 PM
But that's the great thing about Fornits, Who- we don't need consensus to kick programmie ass.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on January 30, 2007, 07:42:51 PM
Quote
Sorry,Bob, I think I have been very clear with my position that homicide, suicide, rape and crime in general is going to happen anywhere where people and kids are, there are no exceptions. If you have a post where I state otherwise let me see it and I will rescind it.
Here you are Cindy:
Quote
RobertBruce wrote: Kids aren't typically murdered in baseball camp by their coaches for refusing to do something. Happens in TBS's all the time.
Murder occurs all the time at TBS's???.Hmmmmm , okay
I'm not a mind reader Cindy but this statement would seem to suggest that you doubted that murders occured at TBS's all the time. Am I wrong? No. You've been given a number of examples of just such kids who were murdered, call it whatever you want, spin it however you want, it changes nothing. Those kids were all murdered and you were wrong. Now rescind away.
Quote
As for the data at hand, Deborah and I went thru this a year ago and came to an impasse on some deaths that occurred that were not classified as homicides but she felt they should have been included.
I doubt it was an impasse, in all likelyhood it was a situation where she throughouly trashed your argument but you being beyond full of yourself and too stupid to recognize when you've been beaten just called it impasse. If you want to stick with your argument though I'll ask you to provide me examples of situations where someone outside one of these places was killed by being "restrained" and the killer wasn't brought up on some kind of charges without there being a huge uproar. Better yet, could you kill someone in the manner these kids were killed and not be charged with murder? I'm asking about personally.
Quote
I thought a reasonable solution would be to create a category called ?Preventable Deaths? which may include restraints etc
This goes back to my earlier comment regarding you being no different then the actual murderers. You're splitting hairs and trying to call murder something other than what it is. When someone takes another persons life without due process its called murder Cindy. No way around it.
Quote
You may say you win, I win it doesn?t matter to me
That's cool, I win whether you're okay with it or not, but it's good that you've accepted that.
Quote
Data is data, if you want to include wilderness data , it can be expanded to include other types of schools also. I only contend that the data I presented compares TBS to Public schools, that?s what we were working on and that?s what the data speaks to.
No idiot that's the problem. You're comparing TBS's to public schools and excluding every piece of data you don't like. Deborah and Milk already gave you the figures that include all the things that should be included and you refuse to acknowledge it. Why? Because you're a moron. In the meantime you base your figures concerning deaths in TBS's on nothing but your own baseless conjecture. If you ever decide to take your head out of your ass (doubtful) you'd see that we have proven that TBS's are more dangerous than public schools/. Including the year you seem so stuck on.
Quote
I am sorry if this upsets so many people, but we just cant fudge the data to please peoples agenda, you will lose credibility and the data will be useless.
Our credibility is just fine. If there's any doubt why don't you give the Buch a call and ask him how business is. In the meantime you continue to fudge the data to please your own agendas, well yours and your puppet masters. As to upseting people, you frustrate people because we come here to provide the truth about what goes on in these places, when all you do is spew your propogandic nonsense, half truths and manipulations youre giving parents disinformation and thus not helping anyone. You keep harping about contributing something to the conversation. What have you contributed to the conversation besides wasted bandwith?
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: teachback on January 30, 2007, 07:52:34 PM
Quote from: ""Charly""
OzGirl- The same could be said by a teen living in the home. Many teens hate their parents and home life, but really can't live on their own so they stay. In my view, if they stay in the home, they have to adhere to basic rules and show consideration for other family members. Having to live at home due to lack of options isn't a whole lot different from being at a TBS where you theoretically can walk off, but where would you go? A boy posted on the Carlbrook thread a long time ago (Ben Sturgess) who did just that- he walked off when he turned 18, and admitted that Carlbrook was better than the life he had on his own at that point. He hated Carlbrook and found it worthless in his case, but it was a bed and walls at least, which was more than he had on his own.
Children's rights must be re-accessed. I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here. Living in a program cannot (and should not, Charly, shame on you) be compared to living in the home. If the home is like a TBS then it is abusive. The sick reality is that kids can become dependent on these programs in a sense. This is truly frightening and sad....
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: teachback on January 30, 2007, 07:56:12 PM
Quote from: ""Anne Bonney""
This was just posted over on the Straight forum. Maia's good. She's got the parents pegged.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on January 30, 2007, 08:02:24 PM
Bob, you can speak all you want about winning or losing. You have brought nothing to the table, all I ask is you provide something to back up what you say. Here are my numbers again and I will provide a link again if you like. If you can add more data points lets add them its no shame on anyone, its data Bob, the basis for making decisions. If its not correct lets fix it !! You point to everyone else but you don?t seem to want to help or add value. Again here is what I have, are you going to wait for others to respond or are you going to produce it yourself?
Lets work on one name at a time and then adjust the data set as we go. Remember the time frame parameters and TBS focus.
One more time:
July 1, 1999 thru June 2000
Elementary and secondary schools
At School ---21 school associated Deaths (16 Homicides,6 suicides)
Away from school (2,124 Homicides, 1,922 Suicides)
National Center for Educational Statistics
Time frame: July 1, 1999 thru June 2000 (52,000,000 students)
At School --- 21 school associated Deaths (16 Homicides .00003%, 6 suicides .000012%)
Away from school (2,124 Homicides 0.0041%, 1,922 Suicides 0.0037%)
And estimated a population of 30,000 kids.
So At TBS?s the results would be:
At School --- 0 (0 Homicides, 0 suicide)
Away from School ? 1 (0 Homicides 0%, 1 Suicide 0.0033%)
So from a TBS vs National average the TBS?s had a lower rates of Suicides and Homicides for the same time period ?at school? and about the same ?away from school.?
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anne Bonney on January 30, 2007, 08:04:32 PM
Quote from: ""Milk Gargling Death Penalty""
Back to the original topic of this thread:
Talkin' 'bout peggin parents is much more fun, but whatever.
8-) :smokin: ::bandit::
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on January 30, 2007, 08:10:37 PM
Quote from: ""Milk Gargling Death Penalty""
But that's the great thing about Fornits, Who- we don't need consensus to kick programmie ass.
No - what we were talking about was coming to consensus on some base line data and defining categories such as Suicide, Homicide and introducing a category: "Preventable Death" to help assess the safety of TBS's vs. public school sector. This may even go as far as to support whether TBS's are safer or less safe than public school etc. What we have now is scattered data and a sense from many that TBS's are less safe than public schools, but we really dont know unless we look at the data.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on January 30, 2007, 08:11:22 PM
It just occured to me, I've seen Cindy before. He was in a movie-playing himself naturally. Here I've even got the text from his scene:
ARTHUR: You fight with the strength of many men, Sir Cindy. [pause] I am Arthur, King of the Britons. [pause] I seek the finest and the bravest knights in the land to join me in my court at Camelot. [pause] You have proved yourself worthy. Will you join me? [pause] You make me sad. So be it. Come, Patsy.
CINDY: None shall pass.
ARTHUR: What?
CINDY: None shall pass.
ARTHUR: I have no quarrel with you, good Sir Cindy, but I must cross this bridge.
CINDY: Then you shall die.
ARTHUR: I command you, as King of the Britons, to stand aside!
CINDY: I move for no man.
ARTHUR: So be it!
ARTHUR and CINDY: Aaah!, hiyaah!, etc. [ARTHUR chops CINDY's left arm off]
ARTHUR: Now stand aside, worthy adversary.
CINDY: 'Tis but a scratch.
ARTHUR: A scratch? Your arm's off!
CINDY: No, it isn't.
ARTHUR: Well, what's that, then?
CINDY: I've had worse.
ARTHUR: You liar!
CINDY: Come on, you pansy! [clang] Huyah! [clang] Hiyaah! [clang] Aaaaaaaah! [ARTHUR chops CINDY's right arm off]
ARTHUR: Victory is mine! [kneeling] We thank Thee Lord, that in Thy mer--
CINDY: Hah! [kick] Come on, then.
ARTHUR: What?
CINDY: Have at you! [kick]
ARTHUR: Eh. You are indeed brave, Sir Cindy, but the fight is mine.
CINDY: Oh, had enough, eh?
ARTHUR: Look, you stupid bastard. You've got no arms left.
CINDY: Yes, I have.
ARTHUR: Look!
CINDY: Just a flesh wound. [kick]
ARTHUR: Look, stop that.
CINDY: Chicken! [kick] Chickennn!
ARTHUR: Look, I'll have your leg. [kick] Right! [whop] [ARTHUR chops CINDY's right leg off]
CINDY: Right. I'll do you for that!
ARTHUR: You'll what?
CINDY: Come here!
ARTHUR: What are you going to do, bleed on me?
CINDY: I'm invincible!
ARTHUR: You're a looney.
CINDY: CINDY always triumphs! Have at you! Come on, then. [whop] [ARTHUR chops CINDY's last leg off]
CINDY: Oh? All right, we'll call it a draw.
ARTHUR: Come, Patsy.
CINDY: Oh. Oh, I see. Running away, eh? You yellow bastards! Come back here and take what's coming to you. I'll bite your legs off!
People we are in the presence of a Hollywood legend. Cindy I had no idea, you shouldnt have been so modest, that scene was amazing, it was almost like you weren't acting, almost like that really is your personality to a T.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Deborah on January 30, 2007, 08:20:26 PM
Quote from: ""Oz girl""
And here is the thing. Most reasonable homes do not run like TBS. Because to take Carlbrook and ASR as examples the rules are in no way reasonable, simple and fair in the way that they are with most decent parents. They are often complex, odd and difficult for a teen to follow. If the goal is to get a rebellious teen to understand that rules exist for the good of society, then it makes not sense to ban things like wholesome friendships which ASR has a documented history of doing. it makes no sense to ban reading and instead force a kid to book "appointments" with his peers every night where he is told what can and cant be discussed. It makes no sense to ban exercise when the kid is an athlete or force it to the point of exhaustion on a recovering drug addict. it certainly makes no sense to punish a kid and socially ostricise them when they leave a school with their parents permission because they are "letting the team down" as Carlbrook did to your son.
The rules are intentionally impossible to follow because the intent is not to be reasonable. The rules and methods are designed to support a system of bait and punish. The primary goal of the program is to establish very early on 'who' is in charge, to keep the kid so daze and confused that they don't know which way is up. One can not comply with the rules the first few months when the heavy conditioning is taking place. The rules change when/if necessary in order to establish authority.
Kids fight it as long as they can and most eventually submit in order to have some of the most basic rights such as condiments, contact with their parents, home visits, to take a shit in privacy.......
What's relevant to this discussion is that 13 kids died (were killed) in "TREATMENT" during that time frame. Parents/taxpayers pay tuition that exceeds that of an ivy league college in many cases, for round-the-clock supervision. What's the problem? I feel certain that at least the majority, if not all, of those deceased kids would still be alive if they hadn't been 'treated' by this industry.
And what of the unreported deaths and injuries? Attempted suicides, broken limbs, violent assaults, inappropriate sexual contact with staff, rape, emotional/psych damage? That is the data I want.
The industry is in defense mode. Witness all the white papers and bogus studies in 2006. They wouldn't bother if critics weren't interfering with their bottom lines.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on January 30, 2007, 08:20:59 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Bob, you can speak all you want about winning or losing. You have brought nothing to the table, all I ask is you provide something to back up what you say. Here are my numbers again and I will provide a link again if you like. If you can add more data points lets add them its no shame on anyone, its data Bob, the basis for making decisions. If its not correct lets fix it !! You point to everyone else but you don?t seem to want to help or add value. Again here is what I have, are you going to wait for others to respond or are you going to produce it yourself?
Lets work on one name at a time and then adjust the data set as we go. Remember the time frame parameters and TBS focus.
One more time:
July 1, 1999 thru June 2000
Elementary and secondary schools
At School ---21 school associated Deaths (16 Homicides,6 suicides)
Away from school (2,124 Homicides, 1,922 Suicides)
National Center for Educational Statistics
Time frame: July 1, 1999 thru June 2000 (52,000,000 students)
At School --- 21 school associated Deaths (16 Homicides .00003%, 6 suicides .000012%)
Away from school (2,124 Homicides 0.0041%, 1,922 Suicides 0.0037%)
And estimated a population of 30,000 kids.
So At TBS?s the results would be:
At School --- 0 (0 Homicides, 0 suicide)
Away from School ? 1 (0 Homicides 0%, 1 Suicide 0.0033%)
So from a TBS vs National average the TBS?s had a lower rates of Suicides and Homicides for the same time period ?at school? and about the same ?away from school.?
One more time is right. Cindy, Deborah and Milk have already put this issue to rest, theyve proven you wrong several times over. You refuse to accept the fact that more than one kid died at a TBS in the time span you're talking about. We can lead you to water Cindy but we cannot make you drink. Until you do there really isnt much more to say on the matter, because its just a waste of time. I'm sorry youre too stupid to get this but as you said yourself, you aren't interested in learning the truth.
MY conversation with you has centered on your claim that kids werent being murdered at TBS's. I and others provided you several examples of just such instances, you have thus far refused to acknowledge them. I can't make you learn Cindy, and I'm not trained nor am I willing to deprogram you.
Remember your claim didnt say "No kids have been murdered between a certain time period." You stated as an overall general comment, thus I and others have provided you with all encompassing data. You don't want to accept it because it ruins the perception you have of these places, and of course goes against your programming.
If you want to go back to this matter comparing public schools to TBS in between 99-2000 we can, but lets focus on one matter at a time. I know you're getting upset by pop a ritilan and try to stay focused.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: teachback on January 30, 2007, 08:21:28 PM
Quote from: ""RobertBruce""
It just occured to me, I've seen Cindy before. He was in a movie-playing himself naturally. Here I've even got the text from his scene:
ARTHUR: You fight with the strength of many men, Sir Cindy. [pause] I am Arthur, King of the Britons. [pause] I seek the finest and the bravest knights in the land to join me in my court at Camelot. [pause] You have proved yourself worthy. Will you join me? [pause] You make me sad. So be it. Come, Patsy.
CINDY: None shall pass.
ARTHUR: What?
CINDY: None shall pass.
ARTHUR: I have no quarrel with you, good Sir Cindy, but I must cross this bridge.
CINDY: Then you shall die.
ARTHUR: I command you, as King of the Britons, to stand aside!
CINDY: I move for no man.
ARTHUR: So be it!
ARTHUR and CINDY: Aaah!, hiyaah!, etc. [ARTHUR chops CINDY's left arm off]
ARTHUR: Now stand aside, worthy adversary.
CINDY: 'Tis but a scratch.
ARTHUR: A scratch? Your arm's off!
CINDY: No, it isn't.
ARTHUR: Well, what's that, then?
CINDY: I've had worse.
ARTHUR: You liar!
CINDY: Come on, you pansy! [clang] Huyah! [clang] Hiyaah! [clang] Aaaaaaaah! [ARTHUR chops CINDY's right arm off]
ARTHUR: Victory is mine! [kneeling] We thank Thee Lord, that in Thy mer--
CINDY: Hah! [kick] Come on, then.
ARTHUR: What?
CINDY: Have at you! [kick]
ARTHUR: Eh. You are indeed brave, Sir Cindy, but the fight is mine.
CINDY: Oh, had enough, eh?
ARTHUR: Look, you stupid bastard. You've got no arms left.
CINDY: Yes, I have.
ARTHUR: Look!
CINDY: Just a flesh wound. [kick]
ARTHUR: Look, stop that.
CINDY: Chicken! [kick] Chickennn!
ARTHUR: Look, I'll have your leg. [kick] Right! [whop] [ARTHUR chops CINDY's right leg off]
CINDY: Right. I'll do you for that!
ARTHUR: You'll what?
CINDY: Come here!
ARTHUR: What are you going to do, bleed on me?
CINDY: I'm invincible!
ARTHUR: You're a looney.
CINDY: CINDY always triumphs! Have at you! Come on, then. [whop] [ARTHUR chops CINDY's last leg off]
CINDY: Oh? All right, we'll call it a draw.
ARTHUR: Come, Patsy.
CINDY: Oh. Oh, I see. Running away, eh? You yellow bastards! Come back here and take what's coming to you. I'll bite your legs off!
People we are in the presence of a Hollywood legend. Cindy I had no idea, you shouldnt have been so modest, that scene was amazing, it was almost like you weren't acting, almost like that really is your personality to a T.
:rofl:
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on January 30, 2007, 08:24:41 PM
Ha,Ha,Ha Okay Bob, I think I got your answer, (a little round about though). No hard feelings, we'll move on.........
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anne Bonney on January 30, 2007, 08:27:21 PM
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on January 30, 2007, 08:28:33 PM
Quote
If you want to go back to this matter comparing public schools to TBS in between 99-2000 we can, but lets focus on one matter at a time. I know you're getting upset by pop a ritilan and try to stay focused.
Finally, okay give me your first name:
and let me add again that kids are murdered , raped and abused everywhere, at TBS's, public school, anywhere where kids are likely to be, its going to happen. I think what we are trying to figure out is if TBS's are more safe or less safe than public schools.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on January 30, 2007, 08:32:24 PM
Quote
No - what we were talking about was coming to consensus on some base line data and defining categories such as Suicide, Homicide and introducing a category: "Preventable Death" to help assess the safety of TBS's vs. public school sector.
Don't use the term "we" CIndy you are the one trying to come with this hair splitting category, no one else.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on January 30, 2007, 08:33:51 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Ha,Ha,Ha Okay Bob, I think I got your answer, (a little round about though). No hard feelings, we'll move on.........
answer to what crack head?
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on January 30, 2007, 08:35:44 PM
Okay Bob calm down,
Give me the first name you have, we will do this one at a time and then add them to the data set and then I will update it at the end.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: teachback on January 30, 2007, 08:37:34 PM
Data tracking again? :exclaim:
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on January 30, 2007, 10:51:48 PM
Quote
Finally, okay give me your first name:
and let me add again that kids are murdered , raped and abused everywhere, at TBS's, public school, anywhere where kids are likely to be, its going to happen. I think what we are trying to figure out is if TBS's are more safe or less safe than public schools.
"We" have already reached a concluscion on this point, youre the only one still lagging behind. The rate of kids dying in TBS's is higher than that of public schools. Case closed. Now if youre making an attempt to retract your earlier statement claiming kids weren't being murdered in TBS's, then I'd like for you to do that in a more forthright and open manner.
Let's see if you make good on your claim of always admitting when wrong.
I doubt it.
In the meantime the first name is Ryan Lewis age 14 killed himself Feb 13th 2001 Allredge Academy.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on January 31, 2007, 08:03:17 AM
Quote
"We" have already reached a concluscion on this point, youre the only one still lagging behind.
I know, I can be that way, I just like to be clear.
Quote
Now if youre making an attempt to retract your earlier statement claiming kids weren't being murdered in TBS's, then I'd like for you to do that in a more forthright and open manner.
Okay lets clear this up. My position is: Thewho's offical position: That any place where children are, be it public schools, home setting, TBS?s, wilderness programs or church there are going to be and have been kids abused, killed, raped and suicides have and will occur. I think it is our jobs as parents to insure that our children are kept safe and the only way we can do this is to determine where the safest place is for our child.
Quote
In the meantime the first name is Ryan Lewis age 14 killed himself Feb 13th 2001 Allredge Academy.
Yes, thanks, this was on our list but is a? Wilderness program? not a TBS?s. I am not saying this is not important and we are collecting this data but it is part of a different set of data. Do you have any others?
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Troll Control on January 31, 2007, 09:03:12 AM
My brain aches from reading The Who's constant drivel.
Yes, we know, Who, no kids ever die at TBS's, Saddam Hussein was the architect of 9-11, there was no holocaust, blah, blah, blah. We got it. If you say it over and over and over again, it must be true. We got it.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on January 31, 2007, 09:19:59 AM
Quote from: ""Dysfunction Junction""
My brain aches from reading The Who's constant drivel.
Yes, we know, Who, no kids ever die at TBS's, Saddam Hussein was the architect of 9-11, there was no holocaust, blah, blah, blah. We got it. If you say it over and over and over again, it must be true. We got it.
That is one reason I love it here, okay, DJ, go back and read again or I here I will bring the quote down again:
Any place where children are, be it public schools, home setting, TBS?s, wilderness programs or church there are going to be and have been kids abused, killed, raped and suicides have and will occur. I think it is our jobs as parents to insure that our children are kept safe and the only way we can do this is to determine where the safest place is for our child.
Now can you say that all kids are unsafe in TBS's? or Saddam Hussein was the architect of 9-11? , there was no holocaust, blah, blah, blah.
Sorry, I dont get points for originality, but you should slow down and read some of the previous posts before jumping in.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Troll Control on January 31, 2007, 10:44:01 AM
I read them. All of them. Your posts are just drivel, as I stated earlier.
I don't need you to track or verify anything for me. I know for a fact that kids die in these places (TBS/EG/BM/WT) on a regular basis - by suicide/homicide/preventable causes.
I need nothing from you to understand this well-documented fact.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on January 31, 2007, 10:55:55 AM
Cindy what is the basis for claiming Allredge shouldn't count? You may not deem them a TBS, because it fucks up your data, they however call themselves a school.
Quote
Alldredge Academy
A short term, fully accredited alternative residential school ? Alldredge Academy is a nationally recognized, year-round wilderness program and school for at risk youth, adolescents and troubled teens.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on January 31, 2007, 11:25:52 AM
Quote from: ""Dysfunction Junction""
I read them. All of them. Your posts are just drivel, as I stated earlier.
I don't need you to track or verify anything for me. I know for a fact that kids die in these places (TBS/EG/BM/WT) on a regular basis - by suicide/homicide/preventable causes.
I need nothing from you to understand this well-documented fact.
Cool -- Its not often we agree............
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on January 31, 2007, 11:33:25 AM
Quote from: ""RobertBruce""
Cindy what is the basis for claiming Allredge shouldn't count? You may not deem them a TBS, because it fucks up your data, they however call themselves a school.
Quote
Alldredge Academy
A short term, fully accredited alternative residential school ? Alldredge Academy is a nationally recognized, year-round wilderness program and school for at risk youth, adolescents and troubled teens.
Okay, they do seem to have a school associated with it. If no one has any objections lets take this as a TBS, we can add it.
So we have:
For TBS's:
At School --- 1 (0 Homicides, 1 suicide)
Away from School ? 1 (0 Homicides, 1 Suicide)
Any others?
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on January 31, 2007, 12:00:20 PM
Cindy theyve already been given to you several times over. Why are you wanting to rehash this stuff after you've already been beaten?
"Nay, tis but a scratch"
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on January 31, 2007, 12:24:00 PM
Quote from: ""RobertBruce""
Cindy theyve already been given to you several times over. Why are you wanting to rehash this stuff after you've already been beaten?
"Nay, tis but a scratch"
Because I think it is important to get all the data straight and accurate, it should not be thrown together and everyone should get a chance to add what they know. Its not fair to the kids or parents to take this lightly. You may feel there is a winner here but I dont. When you are dealing with kids being killed or committing suicide there are no winners, except the kids who are saved or helped.
So I have reviewed all the data that has been given to me and if you dont have any additional, we have the following:
Time frame: July 1, 1999 thru June 2000 (52,000,000 students)
Public aschools At School --- 21 school associated Deaths (16 Homicides .00003%, 6 suicides .000012%)
Away from school (2,124 Homicides 0.0041%, 1,922 Suicides 0.0037%)
And estimated a population of 30,000 kids. At TBS?s the results would be: At School --- 1 (0 Homicides, 1 Suicide 0.0033%)
Away from School ? 1 (0 Homicides 0%, 1 Suicide 0.0033%)
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Troll Control on January 31, 2007, 12:44:23 PM
Great. So all this rigamarole yeilds what we all said it would before you went on this "fact finding mission," Who.
Kids that go to TBS's (according to The Who) are one thousand times more likely to end up dead than kids who go to public schools.
I'm glad that was hashed out. Funny how those numbers match what everyone else has been saying all along while The Who whistles past the graveyard...
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anonymous on January 31, 2007, 12:46:45 PM
chances of psychological damage? 90%
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anne Bonney on January 31, 2007, 12:54:23 PM
And I would venture to guess that most of the kids killed in "treatment" are a direct result of either the actions or gross negligence of those being paid handsomely to protect them. Isn't that one of the selling points of these places? How safe they are? How small the student/teacher ratios are? How well cared for their kids are?
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on January 31, 2007, 12:54:39 PM
Quote
Because I think it is important to get all the data straight and accurate
No you don't, you think it's important to get your misinformation accepted as fact.
Quote
it should not be thrown together and everyone should get a chance to add what they know
Very true, you however don't know anything and have already stated you arent willing to learn anything new.
Quote
Its not fair to the kids or parents to take this lightly. You may feel there is a winner here but I dont. When you are dealing with kids being killed or committing suicide there are no winners, except the kids who are saved or helped.
If that was really true you would not continue to discount their deaths and or experiences.
Quote
So I have reviewed all the data that has been given to me and if you dont have any additional, we have the following:
No you have the following, the rest of us have facts.
Quote
Time frame: July 1, 1999 thru June 2000 (52,000,000 students)
Why are you obsessed with this time frame? Even if the data showed that in that time frame the ratio of kids dying was higher at public schools you've still only looked at one year. You have to find the average amount of deaths for public schools and then look at deaths in TBS's across the board. Not simply one year, we've already established that year in question contains an anamonly as the Columbine Massacre occured during that period, something of that magnitude does not occur every year.
Quote
Public aschools At School --- 21 school associated Deaths (16 Homicides .00003%, 6 suicides .000012%)
Fine by this data 1 out of every 3,250,000 kids were murdered and 1 out of 8666666.66 kids committed suicide.
Quote
Away from school (2,124 Homicides 0.0041%, 1,922 Suicides 0.0037%)
Kids in public school not at school when their death occurs in no way factor into this discussion.
Quote
And estimated a population of 30,000 kids. At TBS?s the results would be: At School --- 1 (0 Homicides, 1 Suicide 0.0033%)
Okay so 1 out of 30,000
Quote
Away from School ? 1 (0 Homicides 0%, 1 Suicide 0.0033%)
I'm actually going to wait for you to cite your source for this data before I comment on it.
So then looking at your numbers it would appear that the odds are greater for a kid to die in a TBS than a public school.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on January 31, 2007, 01:02:19 PM
Cindy while you're trying to discount that data and spin it in your propoganda machine I'm curious as to why you don't want to include wilderness programs and such in your findings? Other than the fact that it proves our point beyond a shadow of a doubt of course.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on January 31, 2007, 01:16:07 PM
Quote
. Why are you obsessed with this time frame? Even if the data showed that in that time frame the ratio of kids dying was higher at public schools you've still only looked at one year. You have to find the average amount of deaths for public schools and then look at deaths in TBS's across the board.
It was data that was available to us from the public sector (NCES) They collected data during that time frame, so in order to match our time frames must be the same
Quote
Not simply one year, we've already established that year in question contains an anamonly as the Columbine Massacre occured during that period, something of that magnitude does not occur every year.
Yes !!! Now you are starting to catch on! This is only the beginning. Its difficult to make any decisions based on a single snap shot. When more data becomes available on the public side (NCES) we can compare that also and then the picture becomes more clear with each year that is added.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on January 31, 2007, 01:19:53 PM
Quote from: ""RobertBruce""
Cindy while you're trying to discount that data and spin it in your propoganda machine I'm curious as to why you don't want to include wilderness programs and such in your findings? Other than the fact that it proves our point beyond a shadow of a doubt of course.
Because we are comparing schools. Wilderness programs typically last only a few weeks. I think the data is useful and should be tracked, I just dont think it can counted the same as a school.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on January 31, 2007, 01:47:39 PM
Bob wrote:
Quote
Not simply one year, we've already established that year in question contains an anamonly as the Columbine Massacre occured during that period, something of that magnitude does not occur every year.
If I am not mistaken the Columbine Massacre occured on April 20, 1999. Our time frame is July 1, 1999 thru June 2000 so these figures would not be included.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anonymous on January 31, 2007, 02:45:18 PM
Who, no one cares about your "data." I've asked you about 20 times. Why did your OWN DAUGHTER not speak to you for a couple of years. IS THAT QUESTION SO DIFFICULT for your pea brain?
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on January 31, 2007, 02:58:12 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Who, no one cares about your "data." I've asked you about 20 times. Why did your OWN DAUGHTER not speak to you for a couple of years. IS THAT QUESTION SO DIFFICULT for your pea brain?
Its not my data, no one owns it, it is just information. If it doesnt effect or interest you pass it over, thats what I do.....
You were misinformed, my daughter and I have never stopped speaking and we have a great relationship.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on January 31, 2007, 03:01:31 PM
Quote
It was data that was available to us from the public sector (NCES) They collected data during that time frame, so in order to match our time frames must be the same
Fine, but as I said to before even if you could prove that the public schools were more dangerous during that time period ( you havent, you've been disproven several times over) you've still only done it for that one year.
"Parents if you can manage to get hold of a time machine send your kids to a TBS in 1999, there's no place safer."
Quote
Yes !!! Now you are starting to catch on! This is only the beginning. Its difficult to make any decisions based on a single snap shot. When more data becomes available on the public side (NCES) we can compare that also and then the picture becomes more clear with each year that is added.
No idiot, we had this figured out pages ago, you're the only one who couldnt quite get that lightbulb to turn on. We've been providing examples of kids being murdered in these places over several years. You on the other hand have been stomping up and down insisting (because you refused to look at the rest of the cases) that because according to you and you alone 1999-2000 was safer in public schools, it was therefore safer all the time. This is why you didnt want to look at the cases from other years.
Quote
Because we are comparing schools. Wilderness programs typically last only a few weeks. I think the data is useful and should be tracked, I just dont think it can counted the same as a school.
You don't think about alot of things, it changes nothing. These wilderness programs are lockdown facilities (even if they dont have fences) that have theraputic components. If they can be a member of NATSAP they can be included in our discussion. Case closed.
Quote
If I am not mistaken the Columbine Massacre occured on April 20, 1999. Our time frame is July 1, 1999 thru June 2000 so these figures would not be included.
I stand corrected. There, you see how easy that was? Why don't you try admitting you were wrong.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on January 31, 2007, 03:03:31 PM
Quote
Its not my data, no one owns it, it is just information. If it doesnt effect or interest you pass it over, thats what I do.....
You were misinformed, my daughter and I have never stopped speaking and we have a great relationship.
No it's not your data, its your misinformation, and we all know the truth never interest you, thank you for confirming that.
As to your relationship with your daughter if she didnt refuse to speak to you for two years why did you claim she did?
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on January 31, 2007, 03:10:13 PM
Bob Wrote:
Quote
So then looking at your numbers it would appear that the odds are greater for a kid to die in a TBS than a public school.
That?s the beauty of data, Bob!! Once you get it compiled it is time to start interpreting it, although we only have a single snap shot it can be looked at in may different ways:
You provided one here are a couple more:
: Over !,922 children took their lives during the period of July1, 1999 thru June 2000. There are many interventions in place which try very hard to help these children and reduce these numbers, which they have, but as we can see there is still a lot of work to do. Of the tens of thousands of children who are sent to Therapeutic Boarding schools (TBS) each year there was one child who could not be reached and was lost to suicide. Although TBS?s are seen as being extremely successful, there is always room for improvement, they are continuously improving their programs in an effort to reach and help every child in their care.
Another way to look at it:
Over 2,100 schools aged children fell victim to homicides during the period of July1, 1999 thru June 2000. There are many interventions in place which try very hard to help these children and reduce these numbers, but as we can see there is still a lot of work to do. Of the tens of thousands of children who are sent to Therapeutic Boarding schools (TBS) each year there has not been a single homicide during this time period. TBS?s provide a safe environment for children to grow and mature
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on January 31, 2007, 03:18:39 PM
Actually when we include all the wilderness programs and group homes that you'd rather we not include the number jumps up to 16 homicides during that time period.
Sorry Cindy you can try and spin it anyway you like you just can't change the reality that these places are much more dangerous than public schools.
No way around it.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on January 31, 2007, 03:23:15 PM
Quote from: ""RobertBruce""
Actually when we include all the wilderness programs and group homes that you'd rather we not include the number jumps up to 16 homicides during that time period.
Sorry Cindy you can try and spin it anyway you like you just can't change the reality that these places are much more dangerous than public schools.
No way around it.
Ha,Ha,Ha, of course if you add more parameters the numbers will grow. I dont think anyone would expect them to shrink (no pun intended)
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on January 31, 2007, 03:26:31 PM
Some of this conversation reminds me of this guy who worked for a metal stamping business we have in Colorado. I use to go out 3 or 4 times a year and go over strategic planning, review head counts and the such and the production manager, Jeff, I think they called him was always criticizing this one piece of equipment and it was on our list to replace it or upgrade it I cant remember, but you had to really take care during set-up or it would produce garbage. But it seemed he came into the office, while we were having a meeting, at least 3 times in my 2 visits with a big smile saying ?I told everyone but no ones listens to me, we just produced $5,000 worth of junk?. He took great pride in showing everyone that he was right in wanting a new machine but overlooked the fact that it was his responsibility, his department that was loosing money!! But being right was more important to him than doing his job. I didn?t fire him; I think his own people got to him first. Some people get so wrapped up in themselves and wanting to be right they loose sight of the job at hand and what is important. Anyway, a little boring to most, just wanted to share that?????. I?ll shut up now
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on January 31, 2007, 03:29:56 PM
Wait wait wait....this paragraph deserves more of a thrashing, I cannot allow to make such assinine comments and somehow feel its okay.
Quote
Of the tens of thousands of children who are sent to Therapeutic Boarding schools (TBS) each year there was one child who could not be reached and was lost to suicide
Each year? Each year there since the inception of the industry there has only been one suicide per year? This is what your statement claims. I'll give you a single chance to retract your statement and then I'm going to beat you over the head with it and ensure that it destroys any credibility you're obsessed with obtaining.
Quote
Although TBS?s are seen as being extremely successful, there is always room for improvement,
Successful huh? Based on what exactly? Not one single independent study even remotely suggesting these places are successful (unless you consider ripping parents off and abusing kids as the business goals). There are however a number of things that would seem to suggest these programs arent acheiving much of anything in relation to what they claim to be their goals. Retract this comment as well.
Quote
they are continuously improving their programs in an effort to reach and help every child in their care.
Really? How so?
Quote
Over 2,100 schools aged children fell victim to homicides during the period of July1, 1999 thru June 2000. There are many interventions in place which try very hard to help these children and reduce these numbers, but as we can see there is still a lot of work to do. Of the tens of thousands of children who are sent to Therapeutic Boarding schools (TBS) each year there has not been a single homicide during this time period. TBS?s provide a safe environment for children to grow and mature
Once again youre counting kids who were killed outside of public schools, something that has nothing to do with this conversation, but looking again at your figures.
16 homicides in TBS's out of 30,000 translates to 1 out of every 1,875 kids being killed.
versus at a public school
2100 homicides out of 52,000,000 translates roughly to 1 out of every 24,762.
Once again despite your best efforts youve proven public schools to be safer than TBS's. Thanks again Cindy.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on January 31, 2007, 03:37:00 PM
Quote
Ha,Ha,Ha, of course if you add more parameters the numbers will grow. I dont think anyone would expect them to shrink (no pun intended)
You've provided no justification for wanting to exclude the other programs, I've provided a justification for why they should. You've offered no reasonable counter argument, thus I win.
Quote
Some of this conversation reminds me of this guy who worked for a metal stamping business we have in Colorado. I use to go out 3 or 4 times a year and go over strategic planning, review head counts and the such and the production manager, Jeff, I think they called him was always criticizing this one piece of equipment and it was on our list to replace it or upgrade it I cant remember, but you had to really take care during set-up or it would produce garbage. But it seemed he came into the office, while we were having a meeting, at least 3 times in my 2 visits with a big smile saying ?I told everyone but no ones listens to me, we just produced $5,000 worth of junk?. He took great pride in showing everyone that he was right in wanting a new machine but overlooked the fact that it was his responsibility, his department that was loosing money!! But being right was more important to him than doing his job. I didn?t fire him; I think his own people got to him first. Some people get so wrapped up in themselves and wanting to be right they loose sight of the job at hand and what is important. Anyway, a little boring to most, just wanted to share that?????.
Wow what a stupid story, not only was it a waste of time, but it has nothing to do with this conversation. In your analogy the guy was bitching about something that was his respondsibility. The safety of these kids is not our respondsibility but we are working to make them safer anyway. Idiot.
Quote
I?ll shut up now
One can only hope.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on January 31, 2007, 03:37:22 PM
Tough crowd: I left out a comma. Here it is again
Bob Wrote:
Quote
So then looking at your numbers it would appear that the odds are greater for a kid to die in a TBS than a public school.
That?s the beauty of data!! Once you get it compiled it is time to start interpreting it, although we only have a single snap shot it can be looked at in may different ways:
: Over 1,922 children took their lives during the period of July1, 1999 thru June 2000. There are many interventions in place which try very hard to help these children and reduce these numbers, which they have, but as we can see there is still a lot of work to do. Of the tens of thousands of children who are sent to Therapeutic Boarding schools (TBS) each year, there was one child who could not be reached and was lost to suicide. Although TBS?s are seen as being extremely successful, there is always room for improvement, they are continuously improving their programs in an effort to reach and help every child in their care.
Another way to look at it:
Over 2,100 schools aged children fell victim to homicides during the period of July1, 1999 thru June 2000. There are many interventions in place which try very hard to help these children and reduce these numbers, but as we can see there is still a lot of work to do. Of the tens of thousands of children who are sent to Therapeutic Boarding schools (TBS) each year, there has not been a single homicide during this time period. TBS?s provide a safe environment for children to grow and mature
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on January 31, 2007, 03:53:59 PM
Quote
You've provided no justification for wanting to exclude the other programs, I've provided a justification for why they should. You've offered no reasonable counter argument, thus I win.
Ha,Ha,Ha..... this is a classic,Bob. I think you responded before you read my story.... its all about winning for you... you just dont get it.
There are kids out there who are dieing everyday and all you are interested in is winning something or getting a medal. You are a mess?Bob clean yourself up and try focusing on the kids and their safety !!! Who cares if you are right or trying to win an argument or not. When you get older and enter a professional field you will quickly see that y0u need to keep your eye on the prize (in this case the kids) not on yourself and work towards a common goal?.. sorry guy I hate to be harsh but you should really focus more on helping the kids.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anonymous on January 31, 2007, 04:37:10 PM
Why are you guys even arguing with this twit? The IT doesn't give a shit about kids unless IT can find a way to cash in on the bonanza. Better argue about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Dear The IT: just put the fucking lotion in the basket already.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on January 31, 2007, 04:59:24 PM
Quote
: Over 1,922 children took their lives during the period of July1, 1999 thru June 2000. There are many interventions in place which try very hard to help these children and reduce these numbers, which they have, but as we can see there is still a lot of work to do. Of the tens of thousands of children who are sent to Therapeutic Boarding schools (TBS) each year, there was one child who could not be reached and was lost to suicide. Although TBS?s are seen as being extremely successful, there is always room for improvement, they are continuously improving their programs in an effort to reach and help every child in their care.
Another way to look at it:
Over 2,100 schools aged children fell victim to homicides during the period of July1, 1999 thru June 2000. There are many interventions in place which try very hard to help these children and reduce these numbers, but as we can see there is still a lot of work to do. Of the tens of thousands of children who are sent to Therapeutic Boarding schools (TBS) each year, there has not been a single homicide during this time period. TBS?s provide a safe environment for children to grow and mature
Dear God he still doesnt get it.........Cindy your numbers are wrong plain and simple. You've stated on here you aren't interested in learning the truth about matters, with every statement you make you only seem to reinforce that. Take your head out of your ass and wake the fuck up. You're only making a fool out of yourself.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anonymous on January 31, 2007, 05:01:17 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Dear The IT: just put the fucking lotion in the basket already.
:rofl:
It's long since time for the hose.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on January 31, 2007, 05:17:58 PM
Quote
Ha,Ha,Ha..... this is a classic,Bob. I think you responded before you read my story.... its all about winning for you... you just dont get it.
No Cindy you don't get it. It becomes about winning because you seek to make into a contest, why I do not know considering you lose everytime. For me it's about who is right and who is wrong. In this instance we are right and you are wrong. It only becomes winning and losing in situations where we can exact change or force the schools to do something, or in the court room if need be.
Quote
There are kids out there who are dieing everyday and all you are interested in is winning something or getting a medal.
No Cindy if that was the case I wouldnt ever be willing to concede points of merit for the schools or acknowledge when I was mistaken. You on the otherhand refuse to acknowledge when youre been proven wrong or accept that some of these places abuse kids. I guess you're the one seeking the medal.
Quote
You are a mess?Bob clean yourself up and try focusing on the kids and their safety !!!
Again Cindy, I bathe at least once a day, twice on the days I go to the gym, you need to get over this obsession with my hygeine. Espically since you yourself have got to be covered in dirt considering you like to always keep your head nice and buried in the sand. You may also want to consider what our goals our here, you babbel on and on about how safe these TBS's are. We've proven they arent. We do this because we do care about these kids safety and had to suffer through it ourselves. Something you could never hope to understand. I guess thats why your daughter refused to talk to you for two years.
Quote
Who cares if you are right or trying to win an argument or not
You do apparently.
Quote
When you get older and enter a professional field you will quickly see that y0u need to keep your eye on the prize (in this case the kids) not on yourself and work towards a common goal?..
Oh Cindy......are you making an assumption about my age or station in life? Y0u need to learn to ask questions first, it may help you with that foot constantly being in your mouth problem.
Quote
sorry guy I hate to be harsh but you should really focus more on helping the kids.
Well it's not really harsh...it's more of the same tired rhetoric I heard in HLA, as well as from all their puppets on here "Get with our program, if you don't think like us youre wrong." Just one more thing that reinforces the claim that you are nothing more than an impotent program devotee spewing off what you've been told to think. You may want to try thinking for yourself someday, you might be suprised at what you could accomplish. But before that happens let me ask you, if you believe that I'm not focusing on helping the kids by pointing out illegal actions or lies that these programs have told, or listing off the numbers of kids who have been murdered in these programs, how are you helping them by speaking nonsense and propoganda and handing out disinformation and lies like its candy? Tell me Cindy how do your actions help these kids?
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on January 31, 2007, 05:23:16 PM
Oh Cindy I did want to point out something I am proud of you for:
Cindy wrote
Quote
There are kids out there who are dieing everyday.
I'll give you the benefit of a doubt and assume you meant in TBS's. This shows just how much progress you've made.
When we look back you originally claimed no kid had ever died in a program.
Then you claimed one kid had died in 30 years of operation.
When you had your ass handed to you, you begrudginly acknowledged it but still insisted kids were never murdered in programs.
After you got your ass handed to you again you seem to have finally finally FINALLY seen the light.
As proud as I am of you Cindy I won't be suprised to see a regression. You just arent capable of handling the truth about these places. Messes up your wiring I guess.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on January 31, 2007, 05:38:05 PM
Bob Wrote:
Quote
You've provided no justification for wanting to exclude the other programs, I've provided a justification for why they should. You've offered no reasonable counter argument, thus I win.
Hmmmmm??. Not about winning?
Quote
Well it's not really harsh
Good, I did not intend to offend.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on January 31, 2007, 05:42:47 PM
Quote
Hmmmmm??. Not about winning?
Like I said, it becomes about winning because you seek to make into a contest. I still don't know why since you seem to always lose.
Quote
Good, I did not intend to offend.
Oh Cindy, you couldn't if you tried.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on January 31, 2007, 05:43:20 PM
Ha,Ha,Ha, and another thing !!!!
Quote from: ""RobertBruce""
Oh Cindy I did want to point out something I am proud of you for:
Cindy wrote
Quote
There are kids out there who are dieing everyday.
I'll give you the benefit of a doubt and assume you meant in TBS's. This shows just how much progress you've made.
When we look back you originally claimed no kid had ever died in a program.
Then you claimed one kid had died in 30 years of operation.
When you had your ass handed to you, you begrudginly acknowledged it but still insisted kids were never murdered in programs.
After you got your ass handed to you again you seem to have finally finally FINALLY seen the light.
As proud as I am of you Cindy I won't be suprised to see a regression. You just arent capable of handling the truth about these places. Messes up your wiring I guess.
Calm down Bob, I am sorry. It must be tough for you to sit down now, I would have been finished here 20 pages ago but I just cant resist. I do appologize for upsetting you.......
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anne Bonney on January 31, 2007, 05:47:25 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Quote from: ""RobertBruce""
Actually when we include all the wilderness programs and group homes that you'd rather we not include the number jumps up to 16 homicides during that time period.
Sorry Cindy you can try and spin it anyway you like you just can't change the reality that these places are much more dangerous than public schools.
No way around it.
Ha,Ha,Ha, of course if you add more parameters the numbers will grow. I dont think anyone would expect them to shrink (no pun intended)
It's not adding parameters. Any "therapeutic boarding school", "treatment center", "wilderness therapy", "emotional growth school" or anything else that uses the LGAT/raps/propheets is abusive and dangerous. There are kids dying in these places every year. It's different than in public schools. It's systemic. It comes from the very "treatment" being provided (restraints or excessive physical punishments, physical "coersion" :roll: , fuck that! It's physical force.) That doesn't even address the psychological damage being inflicted upon these kids when they're at their most vulnerable. You will not and cannot understand what fucking with someone in this form does. You think you know all about it but buddy, believe me. You haven't even scratched the fucking surface. My prediction is that you and your daughter end up pretty much like my dad and I have. The "good" relationship we "built" in Straight was fake bullshit, even if I didn't really understnad that at the time. Remember, a lot of us came out of Straight singing it's praises for a number of years, swearing that it "saved" us or helped us realize our "true selves". The relationship was always stressed and tenuous. He never really knew me in any real sense. I never knew me, how could he? We faked and fumbled and tough loved our way through the last 20 years or so, not speaking at all for the last 6 until recently. You've heard my story. That's what you've got to look forward to unless you open your eyes. I'll never trust my father again, ever. And it's a shame because he could have been a great man, I mean a truly great man. Most everyone that knows him thinks he's great, always have. Whaddya wanna bet he's still secretly talking about it to his new friends in that small town he moved to? How he had this poor, doomed child that he saved by being selfless enough to do the tough but right thing. Yanno, not every parent has the strength to do that. :roll: It gets a little annoying when I know the truth. But god knows, I worshipped that man....which allowed for him to have way too much influence on my life and how I lived it and how I viewed myself. Our relationship was shattered. That may or may not have changed if he had opened his eyes, I don't know. I sure wish we would have had the chance though. Have a nice life.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on January 31, 2007, 06:04:22 PM
Cindy wrote:
Quote
Calm down Bob
Oh Cindy, I am calm. We went over this last summer, you often mistake my disdain and ridicule for you as anger and frustration. Cindy I honestly see you as a joke, nothing more. You cannot as hard as you try upset me or get me riled up. Afterall, I have the truth on my side and you......well you have to make shit up Cindy. Now I do wish you wouldn't spread your disinformation to prospective parents, but when they actually read what you write and then look at the facts we present as a rebuttal they come to the correct concluscion anyway. It just takes a little longer and you waste their time.
Quote
It must be tough for you to sit down now
Why would it? I'm actually sitting at my desk right now and have been since I last got up to use the bathroom......wait......Cindy don't tell me.....Oh my God. Cindy you've gone too far now, you raping small woodland animals is sick enough but now youre allowing the larger animals to have their way with you? Sick sick sick. Y0u need help Cindy...fast. While you're getting over your animal fetish, accept that not everyone is into the same disgusting things youre apparently into. Freak.
Quote
I would have been finished here 20 pages ago but I just cant resist.
Well now this is interesting....it would seem to suggest that you stuck around because you were trying to accomplish something. What was it Cindy? Was it you were trying to somehow beat me? Were you trying to win at something Cindy?
I told you so.
Quote
I do appologize for upsetting you.......
Not to worry litle Cindy, as I've mentioned to you many times, you couldn't upset a greiving widow. You just arent capable. Espically concerning me, I find you laughable at best, nothing more. Meanwhile however while I've answered every question you've put to me and countered every point you've made, you've carefully avoided any question or point that might upset your delusions concerning TBS's. It looks like you were the one whos been upset..
Sorry Cindy. :cry:
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on January 31, 2007, 06:56:34 PM
Quote
Sorry Cindy.
Thats okay......
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on January 31, 2007, 08:07:41 PM
Yeah I'm sure youre used it by now anyway.
Oh I'm still waiting on you to answer this question:
Quote
Tell me Cindy how do your actions help these kids?
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: teachback on January 31, 2007, 08:08:00 PM
Quote from: ""Anne Bonney""
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
::bwahaha:: "I'll bite your legs off."
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: teachback on January 31, 2007, 08:08:52 PM
Quote from: ""TS Waygookin""
I rather enjoy having the who babble on about numbers. It keeps him out of any important discussions.
Shh... don't give him any ideas! :lol:
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anne Bonney on January 31, 2007, 09:23:09 PM
On February 4, 1992, 5' 4" tall, fifteen-year-old Paul Choy was being taught a lesson he wouldn't forget -- his last, as it turned out. According to the official version of events, Choy was required to sit on a wooden platform in the cold for five hours as punishment for failing to finish a five-mile run. That's five hours of shivering and without bathroom breaks. Finally, in reckless desperation, he gave his keepers just the signal they were waiting for. They were poised for action. Two staff mambers restrained him in what District Attorney Jorgenson described as something like a full Nelson. They held him for about ten minutes, after which time they noticed he wasn't breathing.
... Well, you can't just let these punk kids ignore the rules, can you? You gotta put 'em in their place, right? If they're out of control, you restrain 'em, right? When they don't cooperate, you gotta make 'em cooperate, right? And when they come lookin' for trouble, you give 'em trouble. They ain't in boot camp to be mollycoddled, you know, but to learn respect for authority. And I'm not their goddam granny who's gonna give 'em hot coco when they need their butts kicked...
That was the scene, more or less, at a place prophetically called Rite of Passage.
Paul celebrated his 16th birthday at Washoe Medical Center in Reno, brain dead and on life support. Before he died, a nurse at the facility, trained to identify signs of sexual assault, observed injuries consistent with anal rape.
His was the first such case to come to my attention.
I've lost count of the number of children killed by suffocation in custodial settings. Yes, I said "suffocation." I know the preferred euphemism here is "accidental restraint-related death." But out of respect for the victims and respect for the English language, I opt for the other word.
After the event, there was the predictable mad scramble to rationalize it. This explanation emerged: Paul was too frail a boy for that particular camp. He didn't have the "athletic ability." He should have been sent somewhere more suitable. His "accident" was the result of an unfortunate, but innocent, bureaucratic oversight. The authorities miscalculated when they sent a puny, little Asian kid to a camp designed for tough young thugs who are inured to being knocked around--ones who would benefit from being marched and exercised to exhaustion and could safely bounce back from almost any amount of brutal treatment. The camp staff were only doing their job. The camp management was only following time-tested procedures. One boot camp apologist characterized Paul's demise as part of the "the window of loss," as though he were an egg in a large shipment of eggs to market. One must expect some breakage, particularly among the ones with prior defects. It's the price of doing business. Presumably, the "window of loss" is a small window, and the few who fall through it don't detract from the larger picture.
Whenever the subject of youths dying violently in custodial settings breaks in the news, which is becoming more frequent as larger numbers of them are funneled into that industry, there is a call for better training of staff. One rarely hears the recommendation for more stringent vetting of applicants for staff positions. That would be unduly accusatory. The mere suggestion that there are people employed in such places who shouldn't be there, who are unfit to be entrusted with the power of life and death over the powerless, would shift the focus of attention onto politically dangerous territory. It could be the first step toward opening a debate over the very essence of youth boot camps and the like, their stated purpose and purported efficacy. It is far safer to leave an engine that is running -- and running well -- alone. Tinker with peripherals, if you must, such as better training for current staff, but don't challenge the fundamentals. Surely no one can reasonably object to better training. Every sensible employee welcomes additional training to help improve job skills. And just think of the exciting new employment opportunities for those who will be the trainers. Everybody wins. Hopefully, those who are unsuited to youth work will be weeded out, or will gracefully weed themselves out during the training process.
This is wishful thinking.
In fact, there is not a shred of evidence to suggest that sadists and bullies are that easily diverted or that they can benefit from in-service training, except, perhaps, to improve their ability to do their dirty work undetected. Also, having been duly trained and certified gives kid keepers an extra measure of deniability in the event of an "accident." It is interesting to note that developers of so-called restraint procedures prescribe frequent periodic refresher courses for staff. Does the science of restraint change that often? Or is this a tacit recognition of the fact that "restraining" a teenager is a peak experience for some users, and they are apt to get carried away in the act?
Offshore facilities serving the "troubled youth" market typically operate in places where child abuse prevention laws are virtually nonexistent and recruit staff from among the locals. How thoroughly job applicants' qualifications to work in educational/therapeutic settings are assessed is anybody's guess. Employers are the sole arbiters of that standard. "Out of sight, out of mind," seems to be their unspoken motto.
Stateside facilities typically set up in remote, inaccessible places where a laissez faire approach to child abuse prevention prevails and where they can easily isolate inmates from all outside contact, even from contact with their families. Isolation, they say, is essential to the success of the program. That's true, but not in the way they imply. It is hard to imagine a more favorable environment for custodial institutions staffed by people with few, if any, marketable peacetime skills.
To date no one has been able to document that boot camp graduates fare better for the experience. The self-serving anecdotal "evidence" touted by the industry's shareholders and enthusiasts, must set every skeptic's bullshit alarm bells ringing -- if the number of deaths were not enough.
IN MEMORIAM
Michelle Sutton, dead at age 15, Summit Quest Kristen Chase, dead at age 16, Challenger Paul Choy, dead at age 16, Rite of Passage Aaron Bacon, dead at age 16, Northstar Dawnne Takeuchi, dead at age 18, VisionQuest Lorenzo Johnson, dead at age 17, Arizona Boys Ranch Carlos Ruiz, dead at age 13, VisionQuest Mario Cano, dead at age 16, VisionQuest John Vincent Garrison, dead at age 18, VisionQuest Bernard Reefer, dead, VisionQuest Robert Zimmerman, dead, VisionQuest Charles Lucas, dead, VisionQuest James Lamb, dead, VisionQuest Tammy Edmiston, dead, VisionQuest Leon Anger, dead, VisionQuest Latasha Bush, dead at 15, Daystar Residential Treatment Center Charles Collins, Jr., dead at age 15, Crossroads for Youth Jamie Young, dead at age 13, Ramsey Canyon Randy Steele, dead at age 9, Laurel Ridge Psychiatric Hospital John Avila, dead, Rocky Mountain Academy Danny Lewis, dead at age 16, VisionQuest Nicholas Contreras, dead at age 16, Arizona Boys Ranch Edith Campos, dead at age 15, Desert Hills Matt Toppi, dead at age 17, Robert Land Academy Chirs Brown, dead at age 16, Robert Land Academy Eric David Schibley, dead at age 17, VisionQuest Robert Doyle Erwin, dead at age 15, VisionQuest Lyle Foodroy, dead, VisionQuest Gina Score, dead at age 14, State Training School (South Dakota) Bryan Dale Alexander, dead at age 18, Texas Correctional Services Michael Wiltsie, dead at age 12, Eckert Youth Alternatives Tristan Sovern, dead at age 16, Charter Behavioral Health System Robert Rollins, dead at age 12, Devereaux School Andrew McClain, dead at age 11, Elmcrest Psychiatric Hospital Anthony Haynes, dead at age 14, American Buffalo Soldiers Boot Camp Ian August, dead at age 14, Skyline Journey Charles "Chase" Moody, dead at age 17, The Brown School (CEDU affiliated) Roberto Reyes, dead at age 15, Thayer Learning Center Boot Camp Travis Parker, dead at age13, Appalachian Wilderness Camp Christening "Mikie" Garcia, dead at age12, Star Ranch Linda Harris, dead at age 14, Chad Youth Enhancement Center Martin Lee Anderson, dead at age 14, Bay County Sheriff's boot camp, Florida James White, dead at age17, SummitQuest, Giovanni ''Joey'' Aletriz, dead at age16, SummitQuest
...and counting.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: teachback on January 31, 2007, 09:28:05 PM
OMFG.... That's a lot of dead kids..
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: teachback on January 31, 2007, 09:43:10 PM
TSW had it right when he was considering direct communication (via the web) with kids who may be in danger of being thrown in to abusive "treatment" centers. There ought to be a site that sets about informing & encouraging these potential victims to use their voices to hopefully defend themselves against being sent to a TBS, etc. It would be good if the site appealled to teenagers somehow; maybe someone should start a myspace blog or something like that to try to 'get the word out' to the KIDS!
The kids ought to know about this stuff too..maybe they could teach their parents about how stupid and harmful these places really are.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anonymous on January 31, 2007, 10:06:12 PM
The only way to really do it- THE ONLY WAY- is to post on the off-topic sections of forums frequented by teenagers.
The vaccine to the programmie disease doesn't spread on its own because it's simply too disgusting to talk about. Kids will not spread this, because they, like everyone else, would rather not think about it.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: teachback on January 31, 2007, 10:15:42 PM
Quote from: ""Milk Gargling Death Penalty""
The only way to really do it- THE ONLY WAY- is to post on the off-topic sections of forums frequented by teenagers.
The vaccine to the programmie disease doesn't spread on its own because it's simply too disgusting to talk about. Kids will not spread this, because they, like everyone else, would rather not think about it.
Interesting. Yes, something like that is perfect.
No, you are right. People would rather not think about it; I feel that. Then the best thing would be to somehow attempt to reach some of the kids that are more obviously at risk. Like say kids near a certain "school" would (don't ask me how) be sought out and warned via the web.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on January 31, 2007, 10:46:45 PM
Quote from: ""Anne Bonney""
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Quote from: ""RobertBruce""
Actually when we include all the wilderness programs and group homes that you'd rather we not include the number jumps up to 16 homicides during that time period.
Sorry Cindy you can try and spin it anyway you like you just can't change the reality that these places are much more dangerous than public schools.
No way around it.
Ha,Ha,Ha, of course if you add more parameters the numbers will grow. I dont think anyone would expect them to shrink (no pun intended)
It's not adding parameters. Any "therapeutic boarding school", "treatment center", "wilderness therapy", "emotional growth school" or anything else that uses the LGAT/raps/propheets is abusive and dangerous. There are kids dying in these places every year. It's different than in public schools. It's systemic. It comes from the very "treatment" being provided (restraints or excessive physical punishments, physical "coersion" :roll: , fuck that! It's physical force.) That doesn't even address the psychological damage being inflicted upon these kids when they're at their most vulnerable. You will not and cannot understand what fucking with someone in this form does. You think you know all about it but buddy, believe me. You haven't even scratched the fucking surface. My prediction is that you and your daughter end up pretty much like my dad and I have. The "good" relationship we "built" in Straight was fake bullshit, even if I didn't really understnad that at the time. Remember, a lot of us came out of Straight singing it's praises for a number of years, swearing that it "saved" us or helped us realize our "true selves". The relationship was always stressed and tenuous. He never really knew me in any real sense. I never knew me, how could he? We faked and fumbled and tough loved our way through the last 20 years or so, not speaking at all for the last 6 until recently. You've heard my story. That's what you've got to look forward to unless you open your eyes. I'll never trust my father again, ever. And it's a shame because he could have been a great man, I mean a truly great man. Most everyone that knows him thinks he's great, always have. Whaddya wanna bet he's still secretly talking about it to his new friends in that small town he moved to? How he had this poor, doomed child that he saved by being selfless enough to do the tough but right thing. Yanno, not every parent has the strength to do that. :roll: It gets a little annoying when I know the truth. But god knows, I worshipped that man....which allowed for him to have way too much influence on my life and how I lived it and how I viewed myself. Our relationship was shattered. That may or may not have changed if he had opened his eyes, I don't know. I sure wish we would have had the chance though. Have a nice life.
First I would like to say I am sorry that the relationship you have with your father has changed as a result of going into Straight and you guys have been estranged for awhile. I read what you allowed me to hear and a few stories you told others on other threads. I also read quite a bit about what ginger had gone thru and how it affected her then and still does now and I truly think that sucks. To me straight (the stories I have heard) seems so cruel and far from what I experienced at ASR, although you mention your father still seems to think it was a good decision, I would hope that with the evidence of how it operated and affected the entire family he would see that maybe it wasn?t all that positive. I see that but it may be easy for me because I wasn?t a part of it. My experience with ASR has been so different in comparison. When my daughter was there and I visited her we had a little difficulty communicating and things were stiff for awhile, I chalk that up to us both being out of our element and we needed to repair our relationship which was damaged a bit prior to her going in. But as the months and visits progressed our relationship was repaired over time and by the time we met in Costa Rica she was her old self again. I don?t feel any tension when we talk at all. She doesn?t mind calling me out in front of my friends when I make a mistake, as she always had and me her. Like you said your father doesn?t know how you feel and believes he made the right decision still to this day. Maybe my daughter feels the same way as you do and I am not catching the signs, but after being on Fornits and reading the stories I have become more aware of what could happen and sometimes when we talk I ask her how she is doing, if she is happy in her daily struggles and try to read her body language or look for a dark side that doesn?t seem to be there, she likes to talk about it and tell stories about things that happened at ASR. There were kids that had a hard time, like Goodtobefree and Badpuppy (I believe was another example) and I don?t think they should have gone there, but what is the answer? Don?t send anyone? How do we know who will succeed and who will get hurt? I agree that certain things need to change so that everyone can benefit. As far as the data. When this started out I was curious why no one collected data to present to parents and as I got into it I wanted to see how TBS (which my daughter attended) compared to public schools. I choose TBS and not Wilderness and mental hospitals or boot camps because I felt some of them were more hazardous and I truly believe they are not all the same (I know this is an unpopular position here). I just don?t think it would be accurate to compare a lock down facilities statistics to a place like ASR or a Mental hospitals Suicide rates to ASR. I do believe that from a suicide point of view that if TBS were totally ineffective they would have an extremely high rate compared to public schools because they have kids who are at a higher risk (I know this will bring many angry posts), but in any event this is what I feel to be true and if they were effective the rates would be in line with the public sectors findings. I do know beyond this statistic there is the mental (non physical) abuse that is talked about here and this cannot easily be measured, I agree and I am not sure how to approach this or how anyone would get their arms around this because there is no empirical data to compare this to. I do believe this occurs and is real, but how is it to be approached, measured and eliminated? I know I have taken a light hearted and sometimes whimsical approach to the collection of this data but I have been met with some resistance by some who don?t seem to feel the data is important or are afraid the data will not go their way or suit their needs (we call them ankle bitters in my circles because they are afraid to be part of the solution or larger picture so they try to tear others down) and I find this, to say the least, bazaar behavior, especially at the early stages of data discovery. So I have had some fun with it and have collected some great information along the way which will hopefully benefit kids someday via educating some parents and steering them towards the better schools. If I can be part of helping one or 2 kids it will be worth it..........wow a little long winded.......anyway that is why I am looking at only one parameter at a time....hope it helps.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on January 31, 2007, 11:39:59 PM
Wow, such a classy guy!
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 01, 2007, 12:00:09 AM
Everything was fine until right about here................
Quote
I know I have taken a light hearted and sometimes whimsical approach to the collection of this data but I have been met with some resistance by some who don?t seem to feel the data is important or are afraid the data will not go their way or suit their needs (we call them ankle bitters in my circles because they are afraid to be part of the solution or larger picture so they try to tear others down) and I find this, to say the least, bazaar behavior, especially at the early stages of data discovery.
Cindy I'm not resisting the data because it isnt going my way. The fact of the matter is it has gone my way and reinforced what I and others have been saying all along. The resistiance youre experiencing and you yourself as demonstrating is due to the fact that you continue to ignore facts you don't like and spin the data to suit your needs. People arent embracing your bullshit and youre resisting the truth, but I guess that's just your way you little ankle bitter you.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 01, 2007, 01:59:40 PM
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Cindy I'm not resisting the data because it isnt going my way..............................
It looks like we finally agree on the data, at least. It?s a long time coming. Okay lets summarize:
We found an opportunity to compare Homicides and suicides which occur in the public sector to TBS?s via a study conducted by the NCES (National Center for Educational Statistics). The time frame they studied was between July 1, 1999 thru the end of June, 2000. So utilizing internet searches and information here on fornits we were able to accumulate data from the same time frame. What NCES found was that during the stated one year period over 1,922 school children committed suicide and an additional 2,100 plus kids were victims of Homicide. After extensive searches we found that there were no homicides in TBS?s and 2 children took their lives during this same time period.
As the NCES continues to collect and publish their statistics it will allow us to track the success/failure of TBS over time. This could become a powerful tool and assist parents in their decision to send or not send their children to a TBS.
Note: The dataset is active and can be updated at anytime if new information comes to light. The NCES has completed a new study in a more recent time frame which will give us another look. I can set this up in a day or so.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 01, 2007, 03:30:25 PM
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It looks like we finally agree on the data, at least. It?s a long time coming
Yet another example of how Cindy spins data to suit his own needs or agenda. He does so by refusing to look at any data which proves his points wrong or taking statements out of context. It's sad really, but not at all suprising.
No Cindy, we don't agree on the data because I'm right and you're wrong. You've proven this by being unwilling to look at all the facts and all the data.
No matter how you spin this you just can't change the facts, get angry if you want but all youre really doing is ruining that credibilty youre so obsessed with.
Not that you ever had any to begin with.
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We found an opportunity to compare Homicides and suicides which occur in the public sector to TBS?s via a study conducted by the NCES (National Center for Educational Statistics).
Wrong. The data you used didnt even mention TBS's. You did that on your own, of course you docotred the results and refused to examine all the data but hey maybe I'm just nitpicking right?
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The time frame they studied was between July 1, 1999 thru the end of June, 2000. So utilizing internet searches and information here on fornits we were able to accumulate data from the same time frame. What NCES found was that during the stated one year period over 1,922 school children committed suicide and an additional 2,100 plus kids were victims of Homicide.
Once again you want to include public school kids who die either by sucide or homicide away from school. Explain how they factor into this conversation.
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After extensive searches we found that there were no homicides in TBS?s and 2 children took their lives during this same time period.
No you found that because you refuse to accept the facts. This is what we found:
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Once again youre counting kids who were killed outside of public schools, something that has nothing to do with this conversation, but looking again at your figures.
16 homicides in TBS's out of 30,000 translates to 1 out of every 1,875 kids being killed.
versus at a public school
2100 homicides out of 52,000,000 translates roughly to 1 out of every 24,762.
Once again despite your best efforts youve proven public schools to be safer than TBS's. Thanks again Cindy.
It's time you accepted it Cindy.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anonymous on February 01, 2007, 03:37:19 PM
ccm needs to stop being so judgmental. she approves of seling kids into programs for money. that lacks class in itself.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 01, 2007, 04:05:33 PM
Bob wrote:
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16 homicides in TBS's out of 30,000 translates to 1 out of every 1,875 kids being killed.
The dataset is open, I am willing to add any names that you have. Give me the first one (you said 16 toal right?) but lets look at one at a time. Do you have a name?
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 01, 2007, 04:45:27 PM
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Once again you want to include public school kids who die either by sucide or homicide away from school. Explain how they factor into this conversation.
During some of the initial discussions we came across some scenarios where kids would go home (or was off campus) from a TBS and commit suicide and it was kicked around if we should tie this in with the TBS data and it was decided that we should include those children.
But what we could do is just combine the ?at school? and ?away from school? data and just simplify it and say TBS and Public school and not differentiate whether they were on their way to school, on a bus, at school etc. It will make it easier to analyze also for future cuts. I will combine the data, present it and see what it looks like in that form.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 01, 2007, 05:33:17 PM
This may simplify the data collection process to combine at home and away from home data, here is what the break down would look like:
School aged children
Time frame: July 1, 1999 thru June 2000
Public sector -- 2,140 Homicides , 1,928 Suicides
TBS Setting -- 0 Homicides, 2 Suicides
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 01, 2007, 06:07:47 PM
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The dataset is open, I am willing to add any names that you have. Give me the first one (you said 16 toal right?) but lets look at one at a time. Do you have a name?
Certianlly Cindy,
Sabrina E. Day, 15
(R) North Carolina Group Home
February 10, 2000
Spin away.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 01, 2007, 06:16:32 PM
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During some of the initial discussions we came across some scenarios where kids would go home (or was off campus) from a TBS and commit suicide and it was kicked around if we should tie this in with the TBS data and it was decided that we should include those children.
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Decided by whom?
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But what we could do is just combine the ?at school? and ?away from school? data and just simplify it and say TBS and Public school and not differentiate whether they were on their way to school, on a bus, at school etc. It will make it easier to analyze also for future cuts. I will combine the data, present it and see what it looks like in that form.
The death of a kid who dies away from school has nothing to do with school safety. Thus, they have no bearing on the conversation. No need to mention it again.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 01, 2007, 06:23:59 PM
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School aged children
Time frame: July 1, 1999 thru June 2000
Public sector -- 2,140 Homicides , 1,928 Suicides
TBS Setting -- 0 Homicides, 2 Suicides[/quote[/b]
Once again the death of a kid away from school has no bearing on school safety whatsoever. In fact the only reason you mention it is because you're looking for ways to paint public schools are more dangerous when the data has already proven, that just isnt the case.
Whatsmore, you have no idea what the situation was for those kids, all you've provided is that they were school age, what kind of school though? Public school? Private school? Home school? Kids on furlough from TBS's? The fact is you don't know, which is one more reason they should not be included.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 01, 2007, 06:28:58 PM
Oh and Cindy, I'm still waiting on you to work up the courage to answer this, well courage or creative bullshit.
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Tell me Cindy how do your actions help these kids?
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 01, 2007, 06:48:29 PM
Quote from: ""RobertBruce""
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The dataset is open, I am willing to add any names that you have. Give me the first one (you said 16 toal right?) but lets look at one at a time. Do you have a name?
Certianlly Cindy,
Sabrina E. Day, 15
(R) North Carolina Group Home
February 10, 2000
Spin away.
Well from what I could find there were no charges filed and it was not considered a homicide, if you had this info it would help. (This would not be included in the public sector data either if that is any consequence) and a group home for kids isnt a TBS.
But you did get the time frame.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 01, 2007, 06:56:29 PM
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The death of a kid who dies away from school has nothing to do with school safety. Thus, they have no bearing on the conversation. No need to mention it again.
Well, I beg to differ, not school safety per se, but child safety. If a child is in the public school sector and is seeking treatment after school and takes their life this should be considered. If you took the same child and placed them in a safe environment, say a TBS, this may not have happened (it may, but again it may not). So we really cant exclude this data/ information. If we tried to differentiate between their academic lives and social lives and therapeutic lives etc. we would have to do the same on the TBS side and only collect the deaths which occurred during their academic treatment and discard it if they were in their dorm, after school hours etc. I mean we can certainly try to do this but I would recommend adding this as a sub set to see the effects, I believe the data would be hard to collect.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 01, 2007, 06:58:25 PM
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Well from what I could find there were no charges filed and it was not considered a homicide, if you had this info it would help. (This would not be included in the public sector data either if that is any consequence) and a group home for kids isnt a TBS.
Of all the times kids are murdered in these places how often do you think charges are filed? Seldom at best Cindy. That's the point. These places self regulate and when a kid dies, it's swept under the rug and buried. This is exactly what we are trying to change and what you are working so hard against.
"What are you talking about we killed a kid? Hell no, he died of AIDS! Those bruises are self-inflicted!"
Why do you think they prefer to bring in their own ME? So they can spin their bullshit just like you.
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and a group home for kids isnt a TBS.
It's a lockdown facility with a theraputic component geared towards kids. It fits. However I'll tell you what, I'll remove all hospitals and youth detention facilities (who are we kidding they could all be considered youth dentention facilities) from the listing just as soon as you drop kids who died away from school from your count and answer my question regarding how you believe you've helped these kids.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 01, 2007, 07:00:17 PM
Quote from: ""RobertBruce""
Oh and Cindy, I'm still waiting on you to work up the courage to answer this, well courage or creative bullshit.
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Tell me Cindy how do your actions help these kids?
I think the more information we can get to the parents to help them make a decision the better it would be for the kids. I think what some people are missing is there are many parents who come here looking for information and if we can provide them a breakdown of where kids are safe and unsafe it will help them with their decision. I mean eventually we mat be able to rate the TBS on some type of scale, but I believe this is far off, we are just at the beginning.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 01, 2007, 07:07:49 PM
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Whatsmore, you have no idea what the situation was for those kids, all you've provided is that they were school age, what kind of school though? Public school? Private school? Home school? Kids on furlough from TBS's? The fact is you don't know, which is one more reason they should not be included.
No we don?t. All we have is what the NCES provides us and they have defined their boundary conditions fairly well. What would be in the best interest of this data is to follow closely what they have done so we can make a comparison. Look very closely at the TBS and compare this to Public sector. If a child is not enrolled in school they are not counted. These are for kids who are enrolled only. If they leave this public sector and go to a TBS they are not included in the NCES data set..
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 01, 2007, 07:09:42 PM
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Well, I beg to differ, not school safety per se, but child safety. If a child is in the public school sector and is seeking treatment after school and takes their life this should be considered. If you took the same child and placed them in a safe environment, say a TBS, this may not have happened (it may, but again it may not). So we really cant exclude this data/ information.
Beg all you like Cindy it doesnt change a thing. You're speculating based on nothing and are claiming TBS's to be safer again based on nothing. For all you know the kids who committ suicide in a TBS might have been safer and still alive today had they remained in a public school. The fact is you don't know and this is exactly why the data has nothing to do with what we are discussing, which is school safety. Nothing more at the moment.
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If we tried to differentiate between their academic lives and social lives and therapeutic lives etc. we would have to do the same on the TBS side and only collect the deaths which occurred during their academic treatment and discard it if they were in their dorm, after school hours etc.
Wrong. At 3 o'clock when that bell rings and those kids go home the respondsibility for student safety ends for the administrators of the school. The school day never ends for a kid in a TBS until the next one begins. The kids in the TBS are meant to be under 24 hour supervision and care. You seem to forget I did attend one of these places, I do know what its like a great deal better than you ever could. On top of that the TBS's bill themselves as safer enviroments so then the microscope should be held that much closer, and the standards should be that much higher.
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I mean we can certainly try to do this but I would recommend adding this as a sub set to see the effects, I believe the data would be hard to collect.
You mean very hard for you to spin. You're getting upset because you don't want to include the things that highlight the truth about how dangerous these TBS's are, or exclude the things that allow you to paint a different picture then that of the truth. Sorry Cindy, on here youre held accountable to the truth.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 01, 2007, 07:15:32 PM
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I think the more information we can get to the parents to help them make a decision the better it would be for the kids. I think what some people are missing is there are many parents who come here looking for information and if we can provide them a breakdown of where kids are safe and unsafe it will help them with their decision. I mean eventually we mat be able to rate the TBS on some type of scale, but I believe this is far off, we are just at the beginning.
Fine, the problem is you're speaking in general terms. By claiming things like "TBS's are safer than public schools" you're including all TBS's. According to the data this isnt true, and all youre doing when saying it is giving parents misinformation and possibly putting their children in danger. Now if you wanted to claim something along the lines of "The ratio of kids being killed is lower at ASR than the national average." and assuming it was true I don't believe there would be a problem with it.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 01, 2007, 07:18:50 PM
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No we don?t. All we have is what the NCES provides us and they have defined their boundary conditions fairly well. What would be in the best interest of this data is to follow closely what they have done so we can make a comparison. Look very closely at the TBS and compare this to Public sector. If a child is not enrolled in school they are not counted. These are for kids who are enrolled only. If they leave this public sector and go to a TBS they are not included in the NCES data set..
Okay but you still don't know what the situation was regarding their deaths, without that information you have no way of determining if they would have been better off in a TBS. Hence the reason why they cannot be included in this data. We are for the moment looking at school safety only. If you want to add that as something seperate be my guest, but it has nothing to do with this comparision.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 01, 2007, 07:46:31 PM
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Wrong. At 3 o'clock when that bell rings and those kids go home the respondsibility for student safety ends for the administrators of the school. The school day never ends for a kid in a TBS until the next one begins. The kids in the TBS are meant to be under 24 hour supervision and care. You seem to forget I did attend one of these places, I do know what its like a great deal better than you ever could. On top of that the TBS's bill themselves as safer enviroments so then the microscope should be held that much closer, and the standards should be that much higher.
Exactly, I agree 100%, So the TBS is overseeing the kids day and night (24 hours). Where in the public sector the kids spend only a portion of the day at school (academics) and the rest of the time they are away from school. The NCES struggled with this early on and decided to break it out this way, just for that reason. At a TBS the TBS takes responsibility for the away from school portion as well as the school portion. So we can measure how good a job they do by comparing the public sectors (School plus away from school) with the TBS which handles both. This way we can see how safe the children are at a TBS vs not at a TBS. You need to remember some kids are attending TBS not to keep them safe from their time at school but also their time away from school. Many kids develop ?At Risk? behaviors outside of school and can get themselves killed or commit suicide also. So we are not just comparing the effectiveness/ safety inside of the public school system but the child?s life, in and out of a TBS.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 01, 2007, 07:55:35 PM
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Okay but you still don't know what the situation was regarding their deaths, without that information you have no way of determining if they would have been better off in a TBS. Hence the reason why they cannot be included in this data. We are for the moment looking at school safety only. If you want to add that as something seperate be my guest, but it has nothing to do with this comparision.
In the Public sector we do if it was ruled a homicide or suicide. The NCES has clear guide lines. We need to match that exactly in order to make a comparison. We are looking at the safety records of the kids in the public sector vs a TBS environment. There are other categories, like assault, robberies etc. that could be compared also as I believe the NCES is expanding their spectrum.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 01, 2007, 08:04:07 PM
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Fine, the problem is you're speaking in general terms. By claiming things like "TBS's are safer than public schools" you're including all TBS's. According to the data this isnt true, and all youre doing when saying it is giving parents misinformation and possibly putting their children in danger. Now if you wanted to claim something along the lines of "The ratio of kids being killed is lower at ASR than the national average." and assuming it was true I don't believe there would be a problem with it.
Well I think when we present the data we make it very clear what the data is and where it comes from. If the data comes from NCES, we state that. The data accumulated from Fornits people and the internet we can add an asterisk saying where the data comes from and what it represents so that the parent can make an informed decision and decide if the data is secure enough for him/her. A parent needs more than one source and parameter to make a decision; I expect this to be just one of them not a deal sealer or breaker but merely a part of their journey to collect enough info to make a decision for their child.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 01, 2007, 08:10:30 PM
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Exactly, I agree 100%, So the TBS is overseeing the kids day and night (24 hours). Where in the public sector the kids spend only a portion of the day at school (academics) and the rest of the time they are away from school. The NCES struggled with this early on and decided to break it out this way, just for that reason.
The NCES never compared the public schools to the TBS's. This wasnt something they struggled with because it wasnt something they cared about.
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At a TBS the TBS takes responsibility for the away from school portion as well as the school portion. So we can measure how good a job they do by comparing the public sectors (School plus away from school) with the TBS which handles both. This way we can see how safe the children are at a TBS vs not at a TBS.
Again we are comparing school safety only. The safety of the students is no longer the public schools concern once those kids leave the school. In the same manner if a kid at a TBS were to be killed while on a visit with his parents it wouldnt be the schools respondsibility would it? Of course not. It's the same thing here, the schools are not responsibile for the safety of the students when they are not at the school. The TBS's claim to maintain that safety 24 hours a day. Public schools do not,thus public school kids who die while not at school are not the schools respondsibility. I don't see how you can claim that it is.
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I want you to remember some kids are attending TBS not to keep them safe from their time at school but also their time away from school. Many kids develop ?At Risk? behaviors outside of school and can get themselves killed or commit suicide also
Once again you're speculating, but it makes no difference. If the ratio of kids dying in TBS's is higher than that of at a public school then that tells us that kids are less likely to be killed at a public school versus that of a TBS. This seems to be what the data is telling us.
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So we are not just comparing the effectiveness/ safety inside of the public school system but the child?s life, in and out of a TBS.
No, because as already illustrated there really isnt a life outside a TBS other than a few visits per year. Public school kids can seperate school from home and what goes on at each one. TBS kids cannot.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 01, 2007, 08:21:34 PM
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In the Public sector we do if it was ruled a homicide or suicide. The NCES has clear guide lines. We need to match that exactly in order to make a comparison. We are looking at the safety records of the kids in the public sector vs a TBS environment. There are other categories, like assault, robberies etc. that could be compared also as I believe the NCES is expanding their spectrum.
Not public sector, public school, that is what we are looking at, nothing else. You started this conversation with your claim, now the data isnt going your way so youre trying to change the criteria. It doesn't work that way. Look at it like this. Say a public school kid comes home from school one day and while there someone breaks in the house to rob it, finds him there and kills him. Now say that same kid attended a TBS and while he's home for a visit he comes home one day and while there someone breaks in the house to rob it, finds him there and kills him. In that scenario it made zero difference as to what kind of school he went to, public or TBS. This is why there is no reason to include the data regarding public school kids who die away from school. We are looking at school safety, kids who die at school. TBS or public nothing outside of that arena. If you cannot prove your point within those parameters then concede the point and move on the another matter.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 01, 2007, 08:30:33 PM
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The NCES never compared the public schools to the TBS's. This wasnt something they struggled with because it wasnt something they cared about.
No, what they struggled with was if it would add value to break out the data to ?At school? and ?away from school? or whether they should just combine it and state it together, the NCES has no affiliation to TBS?s at all.
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The TBS's claim to maintain that safety 24 hours a day. Public schools do not,thus public school kids who die while not at school are not the schools respondsibility. I don't see how you can claim that it is.
It is not, I agree. The schools responsibility ends when the kids leave, thus (at school vs away from school), but the kids can be at risk either time (at school or away from school) so the NCES broke the data out for this reason. They are not just measuring school safety but the safety of the kids when they are away from school. The NCES isn?t saying that the deaths that occur away from school are the schools responsibility and either am I. But the kids are still at risk after school and that is what the NCES is reporting. In a TBS setting the TBS takes on the responsibility of the ?At School? (academic time) and the ?away from school? (non academic time). We compare this to the safety of the kids ?At school? (academic time) and ?away from school? (non academic time) in the public sector. How many deaths occur in the public sector vs TBS setting
This way you are comparing the safety of the child in a TBS setting vs a non TBS setting. This way we can start to answer questions like, How effective are TBS?s in keeping a child safe from suicide/Homicide as compared to being outside a TBS (not just during their academic times).
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 01, 2007, 08:31:17 PM
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Well I think when we present the data we make it very clear what the data is and where it comes from. If the data comes from NCES, we state that. The data accumulated from Fornits people and the internet we can add an asterisk saying where the data comes from and what it represents so that the parent can make an informed decision and decide if the data is secure enough for him/her. A parent needs more than one source and parameter to make a decision; I expect this to be just one of them not a deal sealer or breaker but merely a part of their journey to collect enough info to make a decision for their child.
Put all the asterisks you want on things, just stop making general statements. This seems to routinley cause you headaches, you may want to work on that.
Consider this: The highschool I graduated from has been in operation for about 100 years. To the best of my knowledge there has never been a homicide on campus, this is something the school can take pride in: Look at us, been here 100 years and not a single kid ever murdered. Much safer than other schools." Of course this claim would be true, but lets say they took it a step further, let's say they said something along the lines of "Look at us, we've been 100 years and not a single kid murdered. This provesthat public schools are safe." Well no it really doesnt, it simply proves that particular school is safe. Nothing more. When you claim that TBS's are safer then public schools when the data suggests otherwise (as it appears to be doing) then you are in fact lying to parents and putting kids in danger. In the same regard just because there hasnt been any homicides in my highschool doesnt negate the fact that there have been in a school 100 miles away. If I tell parents because my highschool is safe all of them are safe and then a parent puts their kid into that school 100 miles away from and he ends up dead, that's on me. Examine individual schools if you like, talk about the ones you feel to be safe, but stop generalizing and stop refusing to look at all the facts.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 01, 2007, 08:43:15 PM
From a parents view point when they have a child at risk they are looking for a place to keep them safe. This safety includes their times away from school. Many kids get into trouble after school, make poor choices with friends at home etc. If we provided them data comparing how many suicides/ homicides at a public school vs at a TBS during their academic period. We would be robbing them of the entire picture. I as a parent, I would want to know how safe the kids were after the academic period was over, like in their dorms (how many suicides occurred). How safe are they during therapy, dinner etc. not just their academic times.
We need to compare the kids safety 24 hours a day at a TBS vs 24 hours a day away from a TBS. This is what a parent would want to see and we have the data to present this.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 01, 2007, 08:45:00 PM
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It is not, I agree. The schools responsibility ends when the kids leave, thus (at school vs away from school), but the kids can be at risk either time (at school or away from school) so the NCES broke the data out for this reason
Understandable, but since we are comparing school safety kids who die away from school do not factor into our comparisson.
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They are not just measuring school safety but the safety of the kids when they are away from school. The NCES isn?t saying that the deaths that occur away from school are the schools responsibility and either am I. But the kids are still at risk after school and that is what the NCES is reporting.
Fine, include it in a seperate category if you like, but you cannot lump those deaths together with kids who die in school and call it the same thing. Espically since NCES didn't. The problem centers on you not knowing what the circumstances were surrounding their deaths and whether or not being in a TBS would have made a difference.
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In a TBS setting the TBS takes on the responsibility of the ?At School? (academic time) and the ?away from school? (non academic time). We compare this to the safety of the kids ?At school? (academic time) and ?away from school? (non academic time) in the public sector. How many deaths occur in the public sector vs TBS setting
Public school, again you began this conversation wanting to compare public school safety to TBS safety. Now you're trying to change the parameters because the data isnt reading out how you like. A TBS is respondsible for the safety of the kids 24 hours a day whether they are in class or not. What you're doing is basically akin to me claiming that if a kid was in the cafeteria when he died it doesnt count, or if he was at a school function rather than the regular day. If they are at school it counts, plain and simple. If they arent it doesnt.
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This way you are comparing the safety of the child in a TBS setting vs a non TBS setting. This way we can start to answer questions like, How effective are TBS?s in keeping a child safe from suicide/Homicide as compared to being outside a TBS (not just during their academic times).
No, because again you do not know that those kids who committed suicide or were killed outside of school would have survived had they been in a TBS. You have no way of knowing.
The only thing we can knowingly and respondsibly compare is the amount of deaths in public school versus those in a TBS. This will tell us school safety which is what we are trying to discover. Everything else at this point is pure speculation.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 01, 2007, 08:51:27 PM
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From a parents view point when they have a child at risk they are looking for a place to keep them safe. This safety includes their times away from school. Many kids get into trouble after school, make poor choices with friends at home etc.
Agreed.
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If we provided them data comparing how many suicides/ homicides at a public school vs at a TBS during their academic period. We would be robbing them of the entire picture. I as a parent, I would want to know how safe the kids were after the academic period was over, like in their dorms (how many suicides occurred). How safe are they during therapy, dinner etc. not just their academic times.
Which is exactly what we are doing. We arent limiting TBS kids deaths to strickly academic hours.
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We need to compare the kids safety 24 hours a day at a TBS vs 24 hours a day away from a TBS. This is what a parent would want to see and we have the data to present this.
You're comparing apples and oranges and trying to call them the same thing. We are talking about school safety, nothing more. If you want to create a seperate category regarding deaths and suicides that occur outside of public school then be my guest. Just remember you're speculating when you try and use that data to claim those kids would have survived had they been in a TBS. You have no way of knowing that.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 01, 2007, 08:55:59 PM
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In the same regard just because there hasnt been any homicides in my highschool doesnt negate the fact that there have been in a school 100 miles away.
That is why the NCES includes all schools and the kids enrolled.
Quote
If I tell parents because my highschool is safe all of them are safe and then a parent puts their kid into that school 100 miles away from and he ends up dead, that's on me.
Exactly, I am not saying all treatment centers are the same or safe. I am focusing on TBS?s as a design. Some may be worse than others. Inner city schools may have a higher rate than in a rich neighborhood. All these factors need to be weighed when viewing statistics. By looking at the data a parent can get a first dry cut which may tell him to stay away from TBS or look at it closer. The data may say Hmmmm. Looks like they are doing a good job lets look at this closer or Wow?.. I should stay away.
I think it would be reckless to say all TBS are safe. But as a design they may be safer than the public sector (or where they are now)
Quote
Examine individual schools if you like, talk about the ones you feel to be safe, but stop generalizing and stop refusing to look at all the facts.
I think it would add value to look at a sector like TBS together and I am willing to add events as they occur or come to light and adjust the data. The facts are the only thing driving this.
At some point we could look strictly at Wilderness programs or group homes, boot camps etc.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 01, 2007, 09:00:16 PM
Quote
You're comparing apples and oranges and trying to call them the same thing. We are talking about school safety, nothing more. If you want to create a seperate category regarding deaths and suicides that occur outside of public school then be my guest. Just remember you're speculating when you try and use that data to claim those kids would have survived had they been in a TBS. You have no way of knowing that.
No Apple and apples, I am talking about Kid safety 24 hours a day! Where are they safer inside a TBS or outside a TBS? This is the question I am trying to answer and I think parents would like to have this info to help their k ids.
I dont think we need to try to claim individual cases would turn out differently if they had been in a TBS or the other way around, there just isnt any way of knowing. All we can do is present the findings and allow the parent to make a better decision.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anne Bonney on February 01, 2007, 09:04:51 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
No Apple and apples, I am talking about Kid safety 24 hours a day! Where are they safer inside a TBS or outside a TBS? This is the question I am trying to answer and I think parents would like to have this info to help their k ids
Ya know what Who? Put a chastity belt, lojack and a great big bullet proof bubble around you kid and just be done with it. Make the bubble big enough for some "life coach" or similarly qualified expert to do your job for you.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 01, 2007, 09:08:29 PM
Quote
No Apple and apples, I am talking about Kid safety 24 hours a day! Where are they safer inside a TBS or outside a TBS? This is the question I am trying to answer and I think parents would like to have this info to help their k ids
But before it was school safety the only reason you've changed it is because the numbers werent coming out how you wanted them to. I've already told you, create a seperate category if you like, we can look at that as a seperate topic if you like, but for the time being we are comparing safety for kids in a public school versus kids in a theraputic school both while they are at school.
You cannot lump the two together and call it the same thing when it clearly isnt.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 01, 2007, 09:10:24 PM
Quote from: ""Anne Bonney""
Quote from: ""TheWho""
No Apple and apples, I am talking about Kid safety 24 hours a day! Where are they safer inside a TBS or outside a TBS? This is the question I am trying to answer and I think parents would like to have this info to help their k ids
Ya know what Who? Put a chastity belt, lojack and a great big bullet proof bubble around you kid and just be done with it. Make the bubble big enough for some "life coach" or similarly qualified expert to do your job for you.
Nah, most kids dont need that. Some just need to be place into a safe enviornment so they can grow......if we can lead just a few parents to some of the better places we can help some of these kids avoid the abusive ones.......you forgot the GPS shoes !!
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anne Bonney on February 01, 2007, 09:14:08 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Nah, most kids dont need that. Some just need to be place into a safe enviornment so they can grow......if we can lead just a few parents to some of the better places we can help some of these kids avoid the abusive ones
Most kids don't need programs at all. It is an incredibly small percentage of kids that need to be removed from the home and those that actually do need to be in licensed facilities with licensed professionals.
.
Quote
......you forgot the GPS shoes !!
I said Lojack.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 01, 2007, 09:14:37 PM
Exactly Cindy! This is why y0u need to stop generalizing these places as all good and safe. Look at each individual one decide by its own merits.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 01, 2007, 09:15:33 PM
Quote from: ""RobertBruce""
Quote
No Apple and apples, I am talking about Kid safety 24 hours a day! Where are they safer inside a TBS or outside a TBS? This is the question I am trying to answer and I think parents would like to have this info to help their k ids
But before it was school safety the only reason you've changed it is because the numbers werent coming out how you wanted them to. I've already told you, create a seperate category if you like, we can look at that as a seperate topic if you like, but for the time being we are comparing safety for kids in a public school versus kids in a theraputic school both while they are at school.
You cannot lump the two together and call it the same thing when it clearly isnt.
Yes you can, look at the data. Its done....its data away from school and data at school....what is missing? 24 hours a day at a TBS vs away from a TBS. Its valuable information for parents, I should know, I am one and this would be helpful to myself if I was looking and am sure it will be to other parents.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 01, 2007, 09:17:25 PM
Quote from: ""Anne Bonney""
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Nah, most kids dont need that. Some just need to be place into a safe enviornment so they can grow......if we can lead just a few parents to some of the better places we can help some of these kids avoid the abusive ones
Most kids don't need programs at all. It is an incredibly small percentage of kids that need to be removed from the home and those that actually do need to be in licensed facilities with licensed professionals.
.
Quote
......you forgot the GPS shoes !!
I said Lojack.
Yeah, your right that is GPS, I was thinking about the new shoes on the market which I heard about today.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anne Bonney on February 01, 2007, 09:18:13 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Yeah, your right that is GPS, I was thinking about the new shoes on the market which I heard about today.
:o :o I thought you were kidding.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 01, 2007, 09:21:33 PM
Quote
Yes you can, look at the data. Its done....its data away from school and data at school....what is missing? 24 hours a day at a TBS vs away from a TBS. Its valuable information for parents, I should know, I am one and this would be helpful to myself if I was looking and am sure it will be to other parents.
Dear God........Cindy answer for me this very simple question; Did NCES combine the data or seperate it?
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 01, 2007, 09:25:12 PM
Quote from: ""RobertBruce""
Exactly Cindy! This is why y0u need to stop generalizing these places as all good and safe. Look at each individual one decide by its own merits.
No look at them as a select group (TBS) and then try to rate them from good to bad as more information comes in.
We dont want to lump them all together with wilderness, mental hospitals, group homes etc.
What we need to do is start breaking out select groups and looking at them independently and then start looking at individual programs, schools. This info will give the parent the first cut he needs, should he consider a TBS at all? If the answer is yes then the next step would be which ones. We havent got there yet, we need more data.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 01, 2007, 09:29:29 PM
Answer the question, then I'll respond to this comment.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 01, 2007, 09:30:22 PM
Quote from: ""Anne Bonney""
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Yeah, your right that is GPS, I was thinking about the new shoes on the market which I heard about today.
:o :o I thought you were kidding.
Yea.. they have new shoes (about $300) which has a location device in the heal. Neat colors for the kids (Ha). Its just like loJack only the kid needs to pull the shoe laces (or push a button) to activate it. So the kid needs to want to be found for it to work. I heard about it on the news. Havent seen a ad for it yet on the net.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 01, 2007, 09:34:46 PM
Quote from: ""RobertBruce""
Quote
Yes you can, look at the data. Its done....its data away from school and data at school....what is missing? 24 hours a day at a TBS vs away from a TBS. Its valuable information for parents, I should know, I am one and this would be helpful to myself if I was looking and am sure it will be to other parents.
Dear God........Cindy answer for me this very simple question; Did NCES combine the data or seperate it?
not sure what you mean? They covered a 24 hour period (total) and broke it out into a sub set of "at school" and "away from school". I guess they could have broken it out more by adding sub sets "on the way to school", "During lunch" etc. but the totals are there.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 01, 2007, 09:37:51 PM
So if they didn't combine deaths that occured at school with deaths that occured away from school, explain to me why you should?
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 01, 2007, 09:39:49 PM
Quote from: ""RobertBruce""
So if they didn't combine deaths that occured at school with deaths that occured away from school, explain to me why you should?
They did! They had a 24 hour period and then broke it out to show more detail.... this is common practice. We can do the same with our data as we get more info
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 01, 2007, 09:43:26 PM
Cindy you just said they didn't, you're getting so flustered by this you don't know if you're coming or going.
Here let me help you. This is taken directly from the NCES site.
Quote
In the most recent school year for which data from all sources are available, from July 1, 1999 to June 30, 2000, there were 32 school-associated violent deaths (table 1.1). Of these violent deaths, 24 were homicides and 8 were suicides. Sixteen of the homicides and 6 of the suicides were of school-aged youth (ages 5-19) at school (figure 1.1 and table 1.1). Combined, this translates into less than 1 homicide or suicide of a school-aged youth at school per million students enrolled during the 1999-2000 school year.1 Away from school, during roughly the same time period, there were 2,124 homicides and 1,922 suicides of youth ages 5-19.
Now it would appear by most peoples standards that they are seperating deaths that occur while in school and deaths that occur away from school. Do you disagree?
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 01, 2007, 09:44:41 PM
Did you need to do a little quick rewording there Cindy?
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 01, 2007, 09:45:45 PM
Don't go anywhere Cindy, I'll be right back with you.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 01, 2007, 09:47:41 PM
Hypothetical:
For example we could say 9 children were hurt at a TBS last year and then go on to say:
3 were hurt in the cafeteria, 4 during wilderness and 2 during exercise program. Then you could break it out further and detail the types of problems each had. So the upper level report might only say 9 kids were hurt. It depends on how you want to present the data.
I followed the same format as the NCES so as to have a direct comparison. But we could expand on that later on if we like and break it into further sub categories that may interest parents.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: AtomicAnt on February 01, 2007, 09:51:10 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Quote from: ""Oz girl""
Quote from: ""AtomicAnt""
Brainwashed just like The Who. He has joined the ASR cult and actually believes it is okay to force a belief system onto an unwilling person.
And that 18 months in an institution with nice trees and shit is not incarceration :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
No its not, no fences, no lock ups. The kids can leave anytime they want. Incarceration leads one to believe they are held against their will, this isnt true at ASR.
Shawn Horbeck could have left anytime he wanted, too. I'm not recommending his 'program' to anyone.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 01, 2007, 10:12:52 PM
In the NCES site , click on Figure 1.1 and you will see the totals and then how it is broken out into the sub sets of at school and away from school.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 01, 2007, 10:18:53 PM
Quote
Hypothetical:
For example we could say 9 children were hurt at a TBS last year and then go on to say:
3 were hurt in the cafeteria, 4 during wilderness and 2 during exercise program. Then you could break it out further and detail the types of problems each had. So the upper level report might only say 9 kids were hurt. It depends on how you want to present the data.
I followed the same format as the NCES so as to have a direct comparison. But we could expand on that later on if we like and break it into further sub categories that may interest parents.
Fine, but you're trying to have it both ways. If we are comparing school safety kids who died outside of school do not factor into that comparison. I have told you on several occasions that if you are so set on including that data do so, but do it as a seperate category, and we can discuss it as a seperate issue. What youre doing when you combine the data and dont differentiate between in school and out of school is to state that 2100+ kids were killed in public school between June 2000 and July 2001. This couldnt be further from the truth and youre just attempting to paint public schools more dangerous than they actually are.
Seperate the two just like NCES did and there isnt a problem.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 01, 2007, 10:20:01 PM
Quote
In the NCES site , click on Figure 1.1 and you will see the totals and then how it is broken out into the sub sets of at school and away from school.
Cindy that's exactly what Im asking you to do and youre refusing.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anne Bonney on February 01, 2007, 10:21:00 PM
Psy wrote this in the Carlbrook thread and it's been requested to keep that thread about Carlbrook but I'd like to respond to his post so I'm doing it here as it pertains to how these parents think.
Quote from: ""psy""
Karen. I've been thinking about programs... I think the reason most people on fornits hesitate to recommend any school in this industry, even if there are no allegations of abuse is partially for this reason:
Ever read about the Stanford prison experiment? A bunch of normal college students were selected to participate in an experiment... Some would be prisoners, some would be guards. The guards, slowly but surely, began to "assert their authority"... The situation soon became so abusive that the experiment had to be shut down prematurely... and these were normal, peacenik type people before they became guards...
What happens? Power happens. Absolute power, in the hands of a few, quickly tempts people to take advantage of it. That is the entire reason for the system of checks and balances, in our government and the justice system.
Kids, whose parents send them away to program because they see them as troubled kids (manipulators, etc...)... they make the perfect prisoner. The guards, in this case, know full well that they can do whatever they want to the kids, and nobody will believe them since their credibility is next to nil (and systematically destroyed even further due to inevitable bad reports from the program). Since they control the environment, they also control all the means a kid might collect evidence with. All a kid has is his/her word...
So how is it possable to know if this is not one big hoax, perpetrated by a bunch of rebellious, druggie, fucked-up, manipulative, program-failures-with-a-grudge?
Well to answer that question.. let's ask mister interrogator. Mister interrogator goes and interrogates person A, and then he goes and interrogates person C, and then he goes and interrogates person B. The interrogator does not have to be a psychic. he simply has to look for places where their stories line up...
Benchmark used this technique on a large scale with a "dirt list" that they would make everybody write. They never missed anything. Becuase after repeated interrogations where you were handed back your "dirt list" to re-write it (standard procedure), you never knew what you missed. They got everything, every time, using this procedure...
How did they make sure people didn't "fix" their stories in advance? The same way interrogators do. If 5 people know about something, the first person to break gets a lighter punishment... When the dirt lists were handed back again and again, you never knew if somebody broke. What always happened? Somebody always broke. That person got off easy. So what was it in your best interest to do? Rat out friends (for often ridiculous or frivolous offenses(ie. breaking bans))
So what's my point? When you have kids coming out of these schools year after year, and telling the exact same detailed story... It can't possibly be a lie.
The staff in these programs know full well the power that they wield over people. They know they can abuse it. So inevitably, it will happen.
Many (most) of the staff at these programs are recycled from school to school (most often within the same family of school). They have been in the system a long time... Look at politicians. Regardless of their values coming into office... given enough time and temptation... the power will get to them. It's a universal truth: power corrupts.
The kids in these places have nobody to believe them.. and when you have no hope.. nobody to turn to, no friends... you break. The abnormal becomes normal, and what would once be thought of as abuse becomes "emotional growth".. or "the tools i needed to suceed"... Most kids don't realize the abuse that they have been put through, and many go on to become staff... why? Because the higher you get in the levels, The more ruthless you are expected to be in your reporting of others... as a benefit, you are awarded "semi-guard" status... The higher levels get to taste that power.. and just like the staff.. they think what they are doing is "helping" everybody else... in reality, victims simply become victimizers...
I hope that sheds a little light on things for you.
Yep, that's it. Part of it at least. The way they are designed to "work" is dangerous. They can't "work" without these things. The isolation, "dirt" revelations, groupthink, LGATs, levels etc. The Stanford experiment is a perfect example and has been cited here many times before, specifically to you Who. It's based on a flawed premise. There is just no way in hell you can have any type of coercive "therapy" that isn't inherently dangerous. Period.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 01, 2007, 10:37:24 PM
Its all the same Bob:
Time frame: July 1, 1999 thru June 2000 For school aged shildren :
There where 2,140 Homicides and 1,928 suicides.
16 of these homicides and 6 suicides occurred during the child?s school hours
In TBS's during the same time frame there were 0 Homicides and 2 suicides
0 suicides occured during the school hours.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: psy on February 01, 2007, 11:00:00 PM
Quote from: ""Anne Bonney""
Psy wrote this in the Carlbrook thread and it's been requested to keep that thread about Carlbrook but I'd like to respond to his post so I'm doing it here as it pertains to how these parents think.
Quote from: ""psy""
Karen. I've been thinking about programs... I think the reason most people on fornits hesitate to recommend any school in this industry, even if there are no allegations of abuse is partially for this reason:
Ever read about the Stanford prison experiment? A bunch of normal college students were selected to participate in an experiment... Some would be prisoners, some would be guards. The guards, slowly but surely, began to "assert their authority"... The situation soon became so abusive that the experiment had to be shut down prematurely... and these were normal, peacenik type people before they became guards...
What happens? Power happens. Absolute power, in the hands of a few, quickly tempts people to take advantage of it. That is the entire reason for the system of checks and balances, in our government and the justice system.
Kids, whose parents send them away to program because they see them as troubled kids (manipulators, etc...)... they make the perfect prisoner. The guards, in this case, know full well that they can do whatever they want to the kids, and nobody will believe them since their credibility is next to nil (and systematically destroyed even further due to inevitable bad reports from the program). Since they control the environment, they also control all the means a kid might collect evidence with. All a kid has is his/her word...
So how is it possable to know if this is not one big hoax, perpetrated by a bunch of rebellious, druggie, fucked-up, manipulative, program-failures-with-a-grudge?
Well to answer that question.. let's ask mister interrogator. Mister interrogator goes and interrogates person A, and then he goes and interrogates person C, and then he goes and interrogates person B. The interrogator does not have to be a psychic. he simply has to look for places where their stories line up...
Benchmark used this technique on a large scale with a "dirt list" that they would make everybody write. They never missed anything. Becuase after repeated interrogations where you were handed back your "dirt list" to re-write it (standard procedure), you never knew what you missed. They got everything, every time, using this procedure...
How did they make sure people didn't "fix" their stories in advance? The same way interrogators do. If 5 people know about something, the first person to break gets a lighter punishment... When the dirt lists were handed back again and again, you never knew if somebody broke. What always happened? Somebody always broke. That person got off easy. So what was it in your best interest to do? Rat out friends (for often ridiculous or frivolous offenses(ie. breaking bans))
So what's my point? When you have kids coming out of these schools year after year, and telling the exact same detailed story... It can't possibly be a lie.
The staff in these programs know full well the power that they wield over people. They know they can abuse it. So inevitably, it will happen.
Many (most) of the staff at these programs are recycled from school to school (most often within the same family of school). They have been in the system a long time... Look at politicians. Regardless of their values coming into office... given enough time and temptation... the power will get to them. It's a universal truth: power corrupts.
The kids in these places have nobody to believe them.. and when you have no hope.. nobody to turn to, no friends... you break. The abnormal becomes normal, and what would once be thought of as abuse becomes "emotional growth".. or "the tools i needed to suceed"... Most kids don't realize the abuse that they have been put through, and many go on to become staff... why? Because the higher you get in the levels, The more ruthless you are expected to be in your reporting of others... as a benefit, you are awarded "semi-guard" status... The higher levels get to taste that power.. and just like the staff.. they think what they are doing is "helping" everybody else... in reality, victims simply become victimizers...
I hope that sheds a little light on things for you.
Yep, that's it. Part of it at least. The way they are designed to "work" is dangerous. They can't "work" without these things. The isolation, "dirt" revelations, groupthink, LGATs, levels etc. The Stanford experiment is a perfect example and has been cited here many times before, specifically to you Who. It's based on a flawed premise. There is just no way in hell you can have any type of coercive "therapy" that isn't inherently dangerous. Period.
Bingo.
power corrupts coercion requires absolute power -------------------------------------- coercion absolutely corrupts
// Consent is binary // one consents ---------------------------- or one does not consent ---------------------------- when one does not consent that is coercion
therapy requires consent consent cannot be coerced ------------------------------- therapy cannot include coercion
Therefore.
Therapy without consent cannot exist, is inherantly destined to corruption
or something like that... i'm tired.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anne Bonney on February 01, 2007, 11:02:13 PM
Quote from: ""psy""
Quote from: ""Anne Bonney""
Psy wrote this in the Carlbrook thread and it's been requested to keep that thread about Carlbrook but I'd like to respond to his post so I'm doing it here as it pertains to how these parents think.
Quote from: ""psy""
Karen. I've been thinking about programs... I think the reason most people on fornits hesitate to recommend any school in this industry, even if there are no allegations of abuse is partially for this reason:
Ever read about the Stanford prison experiment? A bunch of normal college students were selected to participate in an experiment... Some would be prisoners, some would be guards. The guards, slowly but surely, began to "assert their authority"... The situation soon became so abusive that the experiment had to be shut down prematurely... and these were normal, peacenik type people before they became guards...
What happens? Power happens. Absolute power, in the hands of a few, quickly tempts people to take advantage of it. That is the entire reason for the system of checks and balances, in our government and the justice system.
Kids, whose parents send them away to program because they see them as troubled kids (manipulators, etc...)... they make the perfect prisoner. The guards, in this case, know full well that they can do whatever they want to the kids, and nobody will believe them since their credibility is next to nil (and systematically destroyed even further due to inevitable bad reports from the program). Since they control the environment, they also control all the means a kid might collect evidence with. All a kid has is his/her word...
So how is it possable to know if this is not one big hoax, perpetrated by a bunch of rebellious, druggie, fucked-up, manipulative, program-failures-with-a-grudge?
Well to answer that question.. let's ask mister interrogator. Mister interrogator goes and interrogates person A, and then he goes and interrogates person C, and then he goes and interrogates person B. The interrogator does not have to be a psychic. he simply has to look for places where their stories line up...
Benchmark used this technique on a large scale with a "dirt list" that they would make everybody write. They never missed anything. Becuase after repeated interrogations where you were handed back your "dirt list" to re-write it (standard procedure), you never knew what you missed. They got everything, every time, using this procedure...
How did they make sure people didn't "fix" their stories in advance? The same way interrogators do. If 5 people know about something, the first person to break gets a lighter punishment... When the dirt lists were handed back again and again, you never knew if somebody broke. What always happened? Somebody always broke. That person got off easy. So what was it in your best interest to do? Rat out friends (for often ridiculous or frivolous offenses(ie. breaking bans))
So what's my point? When you have kids coming out of these schools year after year, and telling the exact same detailed story... It can't possibly be a lie.
The staff in these programs know full well the power that they wield over people. They know they can abuse it. So inevitably, it will happen.
Many (most) of the staff at these programs are recycled from school to school (most often within the same family of school). They have been in the system a long time... Look at politicians. Regardless of their values coming into office... given enough time and temptation... the power will get to them. It's a universal truth: power corrupts.
The kids in these places have nobody to believe them.. and when you have no hope.. nobody to turn to, no friends... you break. The abnormal becomes normal, and what would once be thought of as abuse becomes "emotional growth".. or "the tools i needed to suceed"... Most kids don't realize the abuse that they have been put through, and many go on to become staff... why? Because the higher you get in the levels, The more ruthless you are expected to be in your reporting of others... as a benefit, you are awarded "semi-guard" status... The higher levels get to taste that power.. and just like the staff.. they think what they are doing is "helping" everybody else... in reality, victims simply become victimizers...
I hope that sheds a little light on things for you.
Yep, that's it. Part of it at least. The way they are designed to "work" is dangerous. They can't "work" without these things. The isolation, "dirt" revelations, groupthink, LGATs, levels etc. The Stanford experiment is a perfect example and has been cited here many times before, specifically to you Who. It's based on a flawed premise. There is just no way in hell you can have any type of coercive "therapy" that isn't inherently dangerous. Period.
Bingo.
power corrupts coercion requires absolute power -------------------------------------- coercion absolutely corrupts
// Consent is binary // one consents ---------------------------- or one does not consent ---------------------------- when one does not consent that is coercion
therapy requires consent consent cannot be coerced ------------------------------- therapy cannot include coercion
Therefore.
Therapy without consent cannot exist.
Someday i'm going to distill that down even further.
That was pretty damn good.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: psy on February 01, 2007, 11:09:36 PM
i fixed it. now it's clearer... and it's what i was trying to say.
Title: Version 0.0.2
Post by: psy on February 01, 2007, 11:18:12 PM
Therapy without consent cannot exist, Without concent there is coersion With coercion comes power and with power, corruption
=======================
//eeh. when i'm less tired i'll try again
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 01, 2007, 11:50:56 PM
Quote
Its all the same Bob:
No Cindy, it really isn't. Despite it being a ridiculusly simple concept you seem unable to grasp the difference between deaths occuring during school versus deaths occuring outside of school hours.
A key point for determining safety in school.
Quote
Time frame: July 1, 1999 thru June 2000 For school aged shildren :
There where 2,140 Homicides and 1,928 suicides.
All of which occured outside of public school, therefore having nothing to do with school safety.
Quote
16 of these homicides and 6 suicides occurred during the child?s school hours
Translating to 1 out of every 3,250,000 kids in public school dying as a result of a homicide during school hours.
and
1 out of every 8,666,667 kids in public school dying as a result of suicide during school hours.
versus
Quote
In TBS's during the same time frame there were 0 Homicides and 2 suicides
Actually it's 16, but that's okay I can see now numbers arent your strong suit. As for the suicides I'm not sure so we'll stick with 2 for the moment until we learn new information.
So with a population of 30,000 that comes to.....
1 out of every 1,875 students in TBS's being murdered.
and
1 out of every 15,000 students in TBS's killing themselves.
Quote
0 suicides occured during the school hours
Funny thing is not only does this not matter in the slightest but you have no way of knowing if it's true, nor do you have any means of discovering whether or not its true. Cindy, please do try and keep your manipulations and misinformation down to a minimum.
:roll:
Well then with these numbers in place it looks as if the odds are a kid is more likely to be murdered or end up killing himself in a TBS than he does in a public school. Hmmmm, I guess that means public schools are safer than TBS's. How about that.
With that matter settled I suppose now we can move on. That is of course assuming youre still going to grace us with your presence. I'd hate to think you'd be such a poor sport you'd leave just because you were proven wrong on something. I'll tell you what Cindy, I won't even ask you to man up and admit you were wrong, only because I know you aren't man enough to do it.
Moving on then.
Quote
There where 2,140 Homicides and 1,928 suicides.
That's roughly one of out every 25,000 school age kids died as a result of a homicide.
and
Roughly 1 out of every 27,000 school age kids committed suicide during this time period.
Lets look first at the homicides. Cindy what would you estimate is the percentage of those kids that were "at risk" and could have benefitted or been saved by a TBS?
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 02, 2007, 12:08:39 AM
I did promise I'd respond to this:
Quote
No look at them as a select group (TBS) and then try to rate them from good to bad as more information comes in.
We dont want to lump them all together with wilderness, mental hospitals, group homes etc.
What we need to do is start breaking out select groups and looking at them independently and then start looking at individual programs, schools. This info will give the parent the first cut he needs, should he consider a TBS at all? If the answer is yes then the next step would be which ones. We havent got there yet, we need more data.
Cindy let me offer you another analogy, I'm assuming that on occasion you and your mail order wife go out to eat ? Assuming again by the age of your daughter you two have been married somewhere around 20 years? During that 20 years I'll bet you've been to alot of resturants, some of them probably had really great food, some of them probably were really bad. I'm guessing that you recommended some of the really good ones to your imaginary friends and stuffed animals, just as you told those same stuffed animals not to bother with the really bad ones.
With that in mind you wouldn't say something like, "All resturants have great food." anymore than you would say "All resturants have terrible food." The prudent thing to say would be something along the lines of "Some resturants have great food and some have really bad food." Or if you want to get more specific you could say something like "Resturant 'A' had really great food, but resturant 'B' was awful."
What you're trying to do with TBS's is backwards from this. You're making generalized statements like "TBS's are safer than public schools" or "TBS's are good places." When the reality is that you don't know, you're just guessing. The smart move would be to look at each individual TBS, and then be able to say things like "ASR is good and ASR is safe, but Straight is bad and dangerous." Then once you've looked at all of them you can make an all encompassing statement like "Most TBS's are bad and dangerous but there are a few that are good and truly care about the kids, let me mention a few to you....." .
What's ironic about the whole thing is that you're doing exactly what you get upset at others for doing. You often beg others to acknowledge that some kids benefit from TBS's because you feel they are being overly general in their criticisms. Well I guess what's good for the goose isn't good for the gander huh Cindy?
I hope this helps. :D
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: AtomicAnt on February 02, 2007, 12:36:27 AM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
I also read quite a bit about what ginger had gone thru and how it affected her then and still does now and I truly think that sucks. To me straight (the stories I have heard) seems so cruel and far from what I experienced at ASR, although you mention your father still seems to think it was a good decision, I would hope that with the evidence of how it operated and affected the entire family he would see that maybe it wasn?t all that positive. I see that but it may be easy for me because I wasn?t a part of it. My experience with ASR has been so different in comparison.
How do we know who will succeed and who will get hurt?
Perspective.
The problem, Who, is that you lack the proper perspective.
You and others can argue about data and numbers all you want. They really don't mean anything. There is a perspective that is visceral, that defies your numbers, your rationalizations, your word games. Even the focus on obvious physical abuse and deaths in programs is nothing more than a smoke screen.
The perspective of many of those posting against your arguments is the perspective of those that have been there. It is the perspective of those who found themselves trapped (psychologically, physically or both) in situations during which they were emotionally boxed in and intellectually stifled. They know what this feels like. Because they know and understand what this feels like, they know it is wrong. They don't need data. They don't accept rationalizations. They don't care about efficacy or outward behavior improvements. They experienced injustice. They survived injustice. It had a major effect on their lives, their perspective, who they are, and what they believe in.
Theirs is the perspective of the victims of abuse, of the (temporarily) powerless, of the survivors.
Your perspective is that of the victimizer, the powerful, the one who feels he has the right to do this to another human being, but would never venture to believe that this could, should, or would, ever be done to you. Yours is the perspective of one who callously makes the decision for the other, against the other's will, in the mistaken belief this is for the other's own good. Yours is the perspective of arrogance. You believe you know better than the other what is right and wrong and better than the other what is in the other's best interest. You are the worst kind of oppressor. You believe you have the right and have the expertise to choose for others what should be done to them, not because you are an evil pursuer of power, but because you actually believe you are helping; that you are doing right.
Your perspective is of someone who does not understand the concept of rights. You believe a young person's rights are merely privileges which can be revoked. Kids have rights, Who. Rights cannot be taken away like privileges, they can only be violated.
God save us all from people with your perspective.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 02, 2007, 08:56:27 AM
Quote
With that in mind you wouldn't say something like, "All resturants have great food." anymore than you would say "All resturants have terrible food." The prudent thing to say would be something along the lines of "Some resturants have great food and some have really bad food." Or if you want to get more specific you could say something like "Resturant 'A' had really great food, but resturant 'B' was awful.".
Well, if this is the level you can understand best I will help you to understand. Using your restaurant analogy:
If you are traveling by car in the US, Try to stay away from Drive thru type restaurants and see if you can find a Sit down Restaurant I found them to be much easier on the stomach. I am endorsing Sit-down restaurants as a whole (in this analogy) and understand that some people may have a bad experience or there are poorly managed ones around the US. But if you have to choose this is a good start. The Same goes for Programs We would be looking at TBS?s as a whole. As we collect more data we can start to say that a specific school is better than another, for the categories we are measuring. Eventually we can make statement like, stay away from Straight or boot camps in the southwest, TBS?s seem to have a good track record. Then eventually we can provide data on specific TBS? after more data is collected.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 02, 2007, 09:03:34 AM
Quote
A key point for determining safety in school. Time frame: July 1, 1999 thru June 2000
For school aged shildren :
There where 2,140 Homicides and 1,928 suicides. All of which occurred outside of public school, therefore having nothing to do with school safety.
See, I look at it a little different. I am looking at the safety of the child during the whole day (24 hours) (not just at school or during the academic phase). The public school data (academic time) Away from school (non academic time). In a TBS you have Therapeutic time, Boarding time, School (academic time) which is also a 24 hour period.
So I am simple comparing a child?s safety at a TBS (24 hours per day) vs not bein at a TBS (24 hours per day) We have this data:
Outside a TBS: There where 2,140 Homicides and 1,928 suicides Inside a TBS There where 0 Homicides and 2 suicides.
Quote
0 suicides occurred during the school hours Funny thing is not only does this not matter in the slightest but you have no way of knowing if it's true, nor do you have any means of discovering whether or not its true. Cindy, please do try and keep your manipulations and misinformation down to a minimum.
Thank you, I posed this as an example of how it would be difficult to break it down even further and determine at what phase the suicide occurred (i.e. Therapeutic, Boarding, School phase). A parent isn?t going to care, all they want to know is if their child is going to be safe (24 hours a day)! The data I am presenting covers those time periods in and out of TBS?s.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 02, 2007, 09:17:06 AM
AA, I think you are looking too deeply into this.... I am only looking at the raw data.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anonymous on February 02, 2007, 09:58:37 AM
Something tells me that if we were able to speak to the person that actually went through the place, we'd get an entirely different picture than the one Karen is painting for us.
From the former Prisoner himself- IM in response to the stuff I sent him from Psy
KSA1: did you get my emails? was that exactly like Carlbrook, or was Carlbrook softer? das1: well they fed us fine das1: and i dont remember it being that cold das1: but other than that its pretty much the same das1: and the structure of the workshop is all the same KSA1: did they yell at you and force you to make stuff up? das1: yeah das1: they didnt force anyone to make anything up KSA1: it sounds like it is designed to brainwash you- but I thought you liked the workshops das1: i dont know they were ok das1: but its like the girl said das1: if you are cunning and manipulative enough it doesnt get to you KSA1: like you das1: because you can play the system and not have your reality screwed with das1: everyone at carlbrook was weak das1: i just sat there and let them yell at me
das1: its not just the workshop thats coercive or designed to brainwash you...its the entire school das1: the whole structure and constitution of the place is designed carefully so that its much easier to go along with it and "buy in" than it is to resist - internally and externally das1: some of those kids are so fucked up no therapy will be effective
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 02, 2007, 10:12:31 AM
Quote
Well, if this is the level you can understand best I will help you to understand. Using your restaurant analogy:
I was actually dumbing it down for you, you seem to be the one having trouble grasping simple concepts. We can take it up a notch if you like.
Quote
If you are traveling by car in the US, Try to stay away from Drive thru type restaurants and see if you can find a Sit down Restaurant I found them to be much easier on the stomach.
Bingo Cindy, this is your problem right here.
Quote
if you can find a Sit down Restaurant I found them to be much easier on the stomach
. You are using your personal experience to judge an entire industry, exactly what you are doing with TBS's. You believe because you (not your daughter) had a positive experience at ASR, therefore it must be the same across the board, when in reality you have no idea what you're talking about.
Quote
The Same goes for Programs We would be looking at TBS?s as a whole. As we collect more data we can start to say that a specific school is better than another, for the categories we are measuring.
Youre still doing this backwards Cindy, going back to the resturant analogy if you were to have lunch today at a resturant next to your office and found it to be bad you wouldnt use that experience to say "all resturants in this neighborhood are bad." How could you? You've only experienced one. On the other hand say you sampled all the resturants in a two mile radius of your office you could then state "Overall most of the resturants in this neighborhood are good." The point being you have to research things first before you make these general statements, youre wanting to do it backwards and are advocating for places you know absolutly nothing about. How does that makes sense to you?
Quote
Eventually we can make statement like, stay away from Straight or boot camps in the southwest, TBS?s seem to have a good track record. Then eventually we can provide data on specific TBS? after more data is collected.
Eventually being the key word, youre wanting to advocate for programs before youve even looked into them. Justify this for me.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 02, 2007, 10:23:11 AM
Quote
You are using your personal experience to judge an entire industry, exactly what you are doing with TBS's. You believe because you (not your daughter) had a positive experience at ASR, therefore it must be the same across the board, when in reality you have no idea what you're talking about.
In the analogy yes. But the data we have is not based on my personal experience it was accumulated from NCES and the internet, newspapers and people here at fornits. This has nothing to do with how I feel or view the industry:
Here take a look again: So I am simple comparing a child?s safety at a TBS (24 hours per day) vs not being at a TBS (24 hours per day) We have this data:
July 1, 1999 thru June 2000
Outside a TBS: There where 2,140 Homicides and 1,928 suicides Inside a TBS There where 0 Homicides and 2 suicides.
The above is not my personal experience but that of others and data collected by the NCES.
Data can be presented in many different ways and in my experience the user (parents in this case) end up dictating how they can best be utilized and what they would like to see. So I suggest instead of trying to convince each other we just put the raw data out there, continue to collect new data points and if the parents feel they need a different cut we can work on providing that.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 02, 2007, 10:48:06 AM
Quote
See, I look at it a little different. I am looking at the safety of the child during the whole day (24 hours) (not just at school or during the academic phase). The public school data (academic time) Away from school (non academic time). In a TBS you have Therapeutic time, Boarding time, School (academic time) which is also a 24 hour period.
Cindy I know three years old could get this, how are you still missing it? If we are looking at school safety any deaths that occur outside of school are not the public schools respondsibility.
Let's use another analogy since you seem to have better luck with those:
If we were comparing say.....vehicle safety, let's say we're comparing the safety of Honda's to that of Ford's. So we compile a list of how many accidents were reported in Honda's and how many were reported in Ford's, and then we look at the severity of the injuries, how many were fatalities, et cet. After doing all that we find that the rate of people seriously injured in Honda's is much lower than that of people seriously injured in Ford's. You however own stock in Ford and don't want this damning evidence to come to light, so what do you do? You add to Honda's list all the people who were killed or injured on the day they drove their Honda but weren't neccessarily in their Honda at the time of their injury or death. You justify this by stating some nonsensical and moronic like," I am looking at the safety of the driver during the whole day (24 hours) (not just in the car or while driving).
While it's very noble of you to be so concerned with the safety of these children their deaths occuring outside of school have nothing to do with school safety. Nothing. The respondsibility of the public school officals ends at 3:00 when those kids go home. The respondsibility of the TBS officals ends at 11:59 P.M and starts up again at 12:00 AM.
Cindy everyone else seems to get this, me, other posters on here, even NCES. NCES even made a comment regarding this very issue, stating that during the time period in question a kid was 70 times more likely to be killed or committ suicide outside of school.. I'm not sure why you're still so confused on the matter, but the rest of the class has moved on. The data as I posted it is accurate, you've been proven incorrect. Public schools are safer than TBS's based on the data for that time period. Stomping your feet and trying to include other things wont change it, let it go.
The final results for that year are as follows:
1 out of every 3,250,000 kids in public school dying as a result of a homicide during school hours.
and
1 out of every 8,666,667 kids in public school dying as a result of suicide during school hours.
versus
1 out of every 1,875 students in TBS's being murdered.
and
1 out of every 15,000 students in TBS's killing themselves.
If you want to continue to argue the point its of course your perogative but parents can easily see how youre trying to manipulate the numbers. If you continue to do so that credibility youre so obsessed with will be gone.
Now if you'd like to examine a seperate time period I'd be more than happy to discuss the matter, it would only give us a better understanding of how safe these places really are. Or if you'd like to answer my question posed to you last night regarding how many of the kids who died outside of school would you estimate to have been "at risk".
Let me know what you want to do.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 02, 2007, 10:57:21 AM
Quote
In the analogy yes. But the data we have is not based on my personal experience it was accumulated from NCES and the internet, newspapers and people here at fornits. This has nothing to do with how I feel or view the industry:
Yet you still advocate for the industry without having all the facts.
Quote
Here take a look again: So I am simple comparing a child?s safety at a TBS (24 hours per day) vs not being at a TBS (24 hours per day) We have this data:
July 1, 1999 thru June 2000
Outside a TBS: There where 2,140 Homicides and 1,928 suicides Inside a TBS There where 0 Homicides and 2 suicides.
Again it's 16 homicides, but I don't expect you to accept any truths at this point. Cindy, youre comparing child safety to school safety. These are not the same things at all, how can you not understand that considering youre the one who wanted to discuss school safety to begin with?
Quote
Data can be presented in many different ways and in my experience the user (parents in this case) end up dictating how they can best be utilized and what they would like to see. So I suggest instead of trying to convince each other we just put the raw data out there, continue to collect new data points and if the parents feel they need a different cut we can work on providing that.
Agreed. All I ask is that you seperate deaths that occur in school versus deaths that occur outside of school and that you stop pretending 16 people werent murdered at these places during that time period.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 02, 2007, 10:59:54 AM
Sorry you still miss it:
I am looking at Childs safety 24 hours a day. Not just at school safety , or at the doctors safety or during lunch safety, but the whole day.
A parent isnt just interested in a Schools safety but he would be more interested in the child during the entire day (24 hours). I know I would be.
Now dont get me wrong the safety of the child at school is important but what is [imore important to parents would be the saftey of the child during the whole day[/i]
I am just looking at raw data at this point:
Here take a look again: So I am simple comparing a child?s safety at a TBS (24 hours per day) vs not being at a TBS (24 hours per day) We have this data:
July 1, 1999 thru June 2000
Outside a TBS: There where 2,140 Homicides and 1,928 suicides Inside a TBS There where 0 Homicides and 2 suicides.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anonymous on February 02, 2007, 11:04:42 AM
Don't get dragged down to his level, Robert, or he'll beat himself with experience.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 02, 2007, 11:10:26 AM
Every passing hour brings the Solar System forty-three thousand miles closer to Globular Cluster M13 in Hercules? and still there are some misfits who insist that there is no such thing as progress.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 02, 2007, 11:25:48 AM
Quote
Sorry you still miss it:
What your spin tactics? No I catch them every time, I just don't buy into them because I recognize them for what they are.
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I am looking at Childs safety 24 hours a day. Not just at school safety , or at the doctors safety or during lunch safety, but the whole day.
Yet before you wanted to look at school safety, you only changed it because you couldnt get the numbers to work out for your agenda. It's not as if you cared about these kids, afterall you hate your own.
Tell me something Cindy, who is respondsible for the safety of these 2140 kids when they arent in school?
Quote
A parent isnt just interested in a Schools safety but he would be more interested in the child during the entire day (24 hours). I know I would be.
Yet you still don't know how many of these kids were at risk, or if they would have been better off in a TBS, so how can you use the data to make such a connection?
Quote
Now dont get me wrong the safety of the child at school is important but what is [imore important to parents would be the saftey of the child during the whole day[/i]
Agreed, but you cannot use the deaths of kids outside of school to claim public schools are dangerous anymore than you can claim the deaths of people outside their cars make their vehicles dangerous. It doesnt make sense to anyone but you.
Quote
I am just looking at raw data at this point:
Looking, spinning, these words are interchangable for you. Tell me exactly what claim are you trying to make at this point? That public schools are more dangerous or a kid being at home is more dangerous?
Quote
Here take a look again: So I am simple comparing a child?s safety at a TBS (24 hours per day) vs not being at a TBS (24 hours per day) We have this data:
July 1, 1999 thru June 2000
Outside a TBS: There where 2,140 Homicides and 1,928 suicides Inside a TBS There where 0 Homicides and 2 suicides.
You know what Cindy? I give up, you're right. Let's include the deaths occuring outside of school, I see now when comparing 24 hours in a TBS we should compare 24 hours outside of a TBS for the lives of these kids. You just let me know what claim it is youre trying to make and I'll agree to it.
So with that being settled lets look at the numbers again.
Out of 52,000,000 kids in public school 2,140 were murdered which
translates to:
1 out of every 24,300
and 1 out of every roughly 27,000 kids committing suicide.
versus in a TBS out of 30,000
16 kids being murdered translating to:
1 out of every 1,875 kids being murdered
and
1 out of every 15,000 kids committing suicide.
.........
Wait a tic.....this means.....gosh Cindy, it looks like after all that trouble a kid is still more likely to end up dead at a TBS then he is on the streets or in public school....combined.
I guess you were wrong after all.
:D
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 02, 2007, 11:31:39 AM
No spin, I am just looking at raw data at this point:
Here take a look again: So I am simple comparing a child?s safety at a TBS (24 hours per day) vs not being at a TBS (24 hours per day) We have this data:
July 1, 1999 thru June 2000
Outside a TBS: There where 2,140 Homicides and 1,928 suicides Inside a TBS There where 0 Homicides and 2 suicides.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 02, 2007, 11:34:27 AM
Cindy I already told you I agree with you on the 24 hour point. I'm just looking now for you to make some kind of claim regarding this data. Is it that public schools are more dangerous? Is it kids outside of school are more likely to be killed? I'm just waiting on you Cindy.
Our data accepts the 24 hour point though, no question about it.
See:
Out of 52,000,000 kids in public school 2,140 were murdered which
translates to:
1 out of every 24,300
and 1 out of every roughly 27,000 kids committing suicide.
versus in a TBS out of 30,000
16 kids being murdered translating to:
1 out of every 1,875 kids being murdered
and
1 out of every 15,000 kids committing suicide.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anonymous on February 02, 2007, 11:37:13 AM
Of course your the type of person who would ignore deaths that came into question. "Well maybe it was not a murder, though he did choak to death under all those councilers."
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anonymous on February 02, 2007, 12:30:03 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
No spin, I am just looking at raw data at this point:
Here take a look again: So I am simple comparing a child?s safety at a TBS (24 hours per day) vs not being at a TBS (24 hours per day) We have this data:
July 1, 1999 thru June 2000
Outside a TBS: There where 2,140 Homicides and 1,928 suicides Inside a TBS There where 0 Homicides and 2 suicides.
Then why not lock 'em all up?
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 02, 2007, 12:48:21 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""TheWho""
No spin, I am just looking at raw data at this point:
Here take a look again: So I am simple comparing a child?s safety at a TBS (24 hours per day) vs not being at a TBS (24 hours per day) We have this data:
July 1, 1999 thru June 2000
Outside a TBS: There where 2,140 Homicides and 1,928 suicides Inside a TBS There where 0 Homicides and 2 suicides.
Then why not lock 'em all up?
Thats the beauty of raw data. It strikes different people different ways. I do agree if we could reach more of these kids we would reduce these numbers, thru local services, school counseling others being removed from an unsafe environment etc.. But pulling them all out of school isn?t the answer, just like locking a kid up who is at risk for suicide won?t work either, which is evident in our penal system. If a person is set on committing suicide they will find a way (Short of 24 hour suicide watch) The trick is to get that person counseling along with keeping them safe. TBS's are not for everyone nor are they all equally effective. The above data, although being only a snap shot, shows the TBS's have had no incidence of Homicide and lost 2 kids to suicide during the same period. The suicide rate may translate into a higher than national average, but TBS's are also dealing with a group that is higher at risk in this area. I would wait until we collected a couple of years to see if there is a trend and if any of the better schools start to float to the top, but the data does look encouraging.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anne Bonney on February 02, 2007, 12:50:53 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
The above data, although being only a snap shot, shows the TBS's have had no incidence of Homicide and lost 2 kids to suicide during the same period.
Just shut the fuck up. :roll:
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Troll Control on February 02, 2007, 01:01:03 PM
Quote
The Who wrote:
"The suicide rate may translate into a higher than national average, but TBS's are also dealing with a group that is higher at risk in this area. "
How does your assertion dovetail with the fact that every single TBS has stated policy that they will not acept severely disturbed kids or those with suicidal ideation?
How can you possibly say that TBS kids are more at risk for suicide when admissions procedures specifically state that suicidal kids can not be admitted? By definition, TBS's do not include suicidal kids.
God, you're a dense one, Who. And either an intentional liar or just very, very dumb. You decide which.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Troll Control on February 02, 2007, 01:08:18 PM
Quote
The Who wrote:
"The suicide rate may translate into a higher than national average, but TBS's are also dealing with a group that is higher at risk in this area. "
How does your assertion dovetail with the fact that every single TBS has stated policy that they will not acept severely disturbed kids or those with suicidal ideation?
How can you possibly say that TBS kids are more at risk for suicide when admissions procedures specifically state that suicidal kids can not be admitted? By definition, TBS's do not include suicidal kids.
God, you're a dense one, Who. And either an intentional liar or just very, very dumb. You decide which.
***Attention Mods: DB Write Error caused multiple postings. Please delete posts previous to this one! Thanks.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 02, 2007, 02:10:49 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote
The Who wrote:
"The suicide rate may translate into a higher than national average, but TBS's are also dealing with a group that is higher at risk in this area. "
How does your assertion dovetail with the fact that every single TBS has stated policy that they will not acept severely disturbed kids or those with suicidal ideation?
How can you possibly say that TBS kids are more at risk for suicide when admissions procedures specifically state that suicidal kids can not be admitted? By definition, TBS's do not include suicidal kids.
God, you're a dense one, Who. And either an intentional liar or just very, very dumb. You decide which.
I am not saying that all the kids at TBS?s are suicidal. I think you misunderstood The kids are a select group, kids at risk, kids who are troubled, some may be suicidal but have not been diagnosed or properly screened, who knows. But personally I would expect if you took a random cross section of kids from a public school and then compared them to a group in treatment you would see a higher incidence of suicide, kids hurting themselves etc. from the treatment group.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Troll Control on February 02, 2007, 02:47:31 PM
Quote
But personally I would expect if you took a random cross section of kids from a public school and then compared them to a group in treatment you would see a higher incidence of suicide, kids hurting themselves etc. from the treatment group.
Well, then we're back to square one: Why will the TBS/EG/BM industry not allow a scientific study of their population/efficacy after 30 years of a drumbeat of consistent requests to do so???[/b]
Before you atart making all kinds of excuses, let me point you to the answer: They didn't work back then, they aren't working presently and they're never going to work in the future.[/b]
To allow a clinical study would be to destroy their livelihoods and they will never allow that to happen.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 02, 2007, 03:04:56 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote
But personally I would expect if you took a random cross section of kids from a public school and then compared them to a group in treatment you would see a higher incidence of suicide, kids hurting themselves etc. from the treatment group.
Well, then we're back to square one: Why will the TBS/EG/BM industry not allow a scientific study of their population/efficacy after 30 years of a drumbeat of consistent requests to do so???[/b]
Before you atart making all kinds of excuses, let me point you to the answer: They didn't work back then, they aren't working presently and they're never going to work in the future.[/b]
To allow a clinical study would be to destroy their livelihoods and they will never allow that to happen.
I don?t have a specific answer to that, but I do know that the schools allow unbiased or independent people in to collect data, perform studies and stay on campus to write reviews books etc. Its seems like they have an open door policy to me. There could be many reasons why long term studies haven?t been done or completed. Many kids may move on and don?t want to rehash that part of their life, just don?t respond, loose touch. Etc.
I don?t think we can assume it is because the data is bad or good
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Deborah on February 02, 2007, 03:14:57 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
I don?t have a specific answer to that, but I do know that the schools allow unbiased or independent people in to collect data, perform studies and stay on campus to write reviews books etc. Its seems like they have an open door policy to me. There could be many reasons why long term studies haven?t been done or completed. Many kids may move on and don?t want to rehash that part of their life, just don?t respond, loose touch. Etc. I don?t think we can assume it is because the data is bad or good
Which schools have allowed independent researcher in to collect data and perform studies? Cite the independent researchers.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 02, 2007, 03:26:37 PM
Quote from: ""Deborah""
Quote from: ""TheWho""
I don?t have a specific answer to that, but I do know that the schools allow unbiased or independent people in to collect data, perform studies and stay on campus to write reviews books etc. Its seems like they have an open door policy to me. There could be many reasons why long term studies haven?t been done or completed. Many kids may move on and don?t want to rehash that part of their life, just don?t respond, loose touch. Etc. I don?t think we can assume it is because the data is bad or good
Which schools have allowed independent researcher in to collect data and perform studies? Cite the independent researchers.
There was a woman from Colgate University (Valerie Shapiro, I believe) who came in to do a study at the Academy at Swift River which is a TBS, and subsequently wrote a paper on her findings. There was a writer (who won the Pulitzer Prize) who stayed at ASR for over a year and wrote about one of the peer groups and the day to day activities of a TBS.
Both times ASR opened their doors to people wanting to review their model/school and how it worked and given full access. There is 2 that I am aware of and that is at just one school. There are probably more.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anonymous on February 02, 2007, 03:38:59 PM
Quote
Thirty families agreed to participate in this extensive survey, making for a 24% response rate. Of these families, only 2 returned more than one parent questionnaire, and only 17 students returned their self-reports.
Here's the whole thing. (http://http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:PhFR018J2hMJ:groups.colgate.edu/cjs/student_papers/2002/VShapiro.pdf+Valerie+Shapiro+ASR&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us&client=firefox-a)
:lol:
Pathetic puff piece. What a fucking joke.
Quote
Despite these shortcomings, 100% of patients and their parents said that they would recommend treatment at ASR to others.
:rofl:
Oh man did they ever hoodwink her. 100% of the names they gave her were positive towards them. WHO'DA THUNK IT! :rofl:
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 02, 2007, 03:55:14 PM
Quote from: ""Milk Gargling Death Penalty""
Quote
Thirty families agreed to participate in this extensive survey, making for a 24% response rate. Of these families, only 2 returned more than one parent questionnaire, and only 17 students returned their self-reports.
Here's the whole thing. (http://http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:PhFR018J2hMJ:groups.colgate.edu/cjs/student_papers/2002/VShapiro.pdf+Valerie+Shapiro+ASR&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us&client=firefox-a)
:lol:
Pathetic puff piece. What a fucking joke.
Quote
Despite these shortcomings, 100% of patients and their parents said that they would recommend treatment at ASR to others.
:rofl:
Oh man did they ever hoodwink her. 100% of the names they gave her were positive towards them. WHO'DA THUNK IT! :rofl:
Ms. Shapiro also went on to say:
My compliments go to the Academy at Swift River for having such successful program graduates as determined by the measures used in this study. Hopefully the center will be able to address some of the problem areas as indicated by the BASC scales, and will use my research as a starting point for many other outcome evaluations. These should include studies after longer follow up intervals, and a study to clarify whether family relations are in fact as good as the families report, or as problematic as the BASC implies. The implications of this research, however, extend well beyond the scope of ASR?s treatment program. I recommend that other residential treatment centers for adolescents also secure positive aftercare arrangements for their students and gradually allow students to test the values learned during treatment in the real world prior to a final discharge. My findings contradict the idea that making fundamental changes during late adolescence is nearly impossible (Loeber, 1991) and also dispel the myth that long-term treatment is detrimental to normal development. The most important finding of this study is that residential treatment for troubled adolescents has the potential to be extremely effective.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 02, 2007, 03:57:54 PM
Cindy why are you ignoring the 16 kids who lost their lives during that time period?
Don't they matter to you? Don't they count?
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 02, 2007, 04:00:29 PM
Quote from: ""RobertBruce""
Cindy why are you ignoring the 16 kids who lost their lives during that time period?
Don't they matter to you? Don't they count?
I told you to add them. The first name you gave me was not a homicide or from a TBS. I am ready lets add them up....you do the checking this time to insure they fall inside the parameters and time lines. I researched the first, you take it from here....let me know.
Thanks
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 02, 2007, 04:01:36 PM
Okay sounds great. What are the parameters?
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 02, 2007, 04:08:29 PM
Quote from: ""RobertBruce""
Okay sounds great. What are the parameters?
Homicides or suicides between the time July 1, 1999 thru June 2000 occuring at a TBS
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 02, 2007, 04:10:10 PM
Sabrina E. Day, 15
(R) North Carolina Group Home
February 10, 2000
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 02, 2007, 04:16:30 PM
Quote from: ""RobertBruce""
Sabrina E. Day, 15
(R) North Carolina Group Home
February 10, 2000
Bob, you need to look at the place they are in and how it was classified, i.e. Accident, Homicide, accidental death, preventable death etc.. This is a group home and it wasnt ruled a Homicide or Suicide.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 02, 2007, 04:17:00 PM
Candace Newmaker age 10
4/18/2000
Evergreen
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 02, 2007, 04:23:23 PM
Quote
Bob, I want you to look at the place they are in and how it was classified, i.e. Accident, Homicide, accidental death, preventable death etc.. This is a group home and it wasnt ruled a Homicide or Suicide.
Oh no no no Cindy. I told you last night you can't have it both ways. You wanted to child safety in the public sector, so now were going to compare it to kids in the private sector. No more splitting hairs for you Cindy, sorry.
TBS's, Wilderness, Group Homes, Mental Hospitals, et cet it all gets included. Anything lock down facility that contains a theraputic component.
Don't like it? Tough shit. Remove all the deaths that occured outside of public school and I'll limit it to strickly TBS's and wilderness programs.
Your call.
Oh and the girl youre asking about was restrained to death.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 02, 2007, 04:25:49 PM
Quote from: ""RobertBruce""
Candace Newmaker age 10
4/18/2000
Evergreen
Bob you dont have any more data to add, this wasnt even a school it was at someones home, it was attachment therapy by a nurse.
You check the rest.........
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anonymous on February 02, 2007, 04:27:30 PM
I hate this argument, but since you insist on continuing with it...
TheWho, there are not 30,000 kids in TBSes. There might be 30,000 kids in programs. If you want to conveniently exclude the 16 homicides you don't like hearing about, then limit your number to the actual number of kids.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 02, 2007, 04:28:31 PM
Here take a look again: So I am simple comparing a child?s safety at a TBS (24 hours per day) vs not being at a TBS (24 hours per day) We have this data:
July 1, 1999 thru June 2000
Outside a TBS: There where 2,140 Homicides and 1,928 suicides Inside a TBS There where 0 Homicides and 2 suicides.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 02, 2007, 04:33:02 PM
Quote from: ""Milk Gargling Death Penalty""
I hate this argument, but since you insist on continuing with it...
TheWho, there are not 30,000 kids in TBSes. There might be 30,000 kids in programs. If you want to conveniently exclude the 16 homicides you don't like hearing about, then limit your number to the actual number of kids.
One of those names that was given to me was a little girl who traveled to a nurses private home to received attachment therapy for a few days. I am not excluding any data, they just dont fit the parameters.
Okay, lets throw out the 30,000 until we have a better number and stay with the totals.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 02, 2007, 04:35:05 PM
That doesnt look like anyones home. It looks like a training institute. The girl died from asphyxiation brought on by a rebirthing ceremony.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 02, 2007, 04:37:54 PM
Quote
One of those names that was given to me was a little girl who traveled to a nurses private home to received attachment therapy for a few days. I am not excluding any data, they just dont fit the parameters.
Okay, lets throw out the 30,000 until we have a better number and stay with the totals.
Let's not. He's saying the number 30,000 includes kids not just in TBS's but in wilderness programs, group homes, institutes, et cet.
They all count, you want to play with your numbers and add each and every kid you can to prove you claim yet you don't feel the same standards should apply the other way around.
Maybe you should be in one of these places Cindy, you seem to have some real entitlement issues.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 02, 2007, 04:40:55 PM
So then so far we have....
July 1, 1999 thru June 2000
Outside a TBS: There where 2,140 Homicides and 1,928 suicides Inside a TBS There were 2 Homicides and 2 suicides.
Let's see what else we can find.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 02, 2007, 04:43:49 PM
That doesnt look like anyones home. It looks like a training institute. The girl died from asphyxiation brought on by a rebirthing ceremony.
Wrong again:
Candace and Jeane Newmaker travelled to Connell Watkins' home in Evergreen, Colorado in April, 2000 after Jeane Newmaker scheduled a "ten-day intensive" treatment for Candace with Connell Watkins,........Candace died in the second week of the intensive with Watkins during a "rebirthing" session in Watkins' home in Evergreen
Either way it isnt a TBS.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 02, 2007, 04:46:15 PM
On November 2, 1999, 14-year old Jerry McLaurin died after he was restrained at the New Horizons Ranch.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 02, 2007, 04:48:15 PM
Bob, You can make it 100 Homicides if you want, its a free country. But at some point someone will ask you for the names and back up data and you will have to produce it and your credability will go down even lower.......
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 02, 2007, 04:50:13 PM
Sorry Cindy its a lock down facility with a theraputic component, therefore it counts. We arent going to allow you to dismiss this girls death and dance her grave simply because she throws off your propoganda.
I'd be interested to know though where are you getting the information citing that this incident occured in a private home? Not that it would matter, the parents hired the nurse through this institute. Location doesnt matter. Unless you'd like to exclude every kid on your list that died in the hospital rather than in a school or in public?
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 02, 2007, 04:54:13 PM
Quote from: ""RobertBruce""
On November 2, 1999, 14-year old Jerry McLaurin died after he was restrained at the New Horizons Ranch.
I am not going to reasearch this one. Provide a link where it states it was ruled a Homicide.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 02, 2007, 04:54:49 PM
Quote
Bob, You can make it 100 Homicides if you want, its a free country. But at some point someone will ask you for the names and back up data and you will have to produce it and your credability will go down even lower.......
How cute. Cindy wants to talk about someone elses credibility. Cindy I have parents PMing me all the time thanking me for letting them know the truth about these places. On top of that you've backed up a total of one of your many many claims, and then you had to spin it like a dreidle. Cindy you have no credibility with anyone regarding anything, let alone this.
Youre just upset because youve run out of excuses to try and support your backassward claims. Sorry Cindy but your claims just dont hold up to the truth.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 02, 2007, 04:55:51 PM
Quote from: ""RobertBruce""
Sorry Cindy its a lock down facility with a theraputic component, therefore it counts. We arent going to allow you to dismiss this girls death and dance her grave simply because she throws off your propoganda.
I'd be interested to know though where are you getting the information citing that this incident occured in a private home? Not that it would matter, the parents hired the nurse through this institute. Location doesnt matter. Unless you'd like to exclude every kid on your list that died in the hospital rather than in a school or in public?
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 02, 2007, 04:59:30 PM
Cindy complained:
Quote
I am not going to reasearch this one. Provide a link where it states it was ruled a Homicide.
Cindy you don't research anything, you also routinley demand that others find evidence against your claims, that you never backed up to begin with. Don't cry now when I do the same thing to you. Apparently it is good enough for you to make a claim and let it be at that. I can see the source right now and will PM to whomever else asks me, you however dont back up your claims to me, so I see no reason to back up mine to you. Maybe if you ask me nicely I'll reconsider just because its as much fun frustrating you as it is proving you wrong.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 02, 2007, 05:02:33 PM
Quote
it is still not a TBS, Bob.
Never said it was Cindy, but it still counts. I made you an offer youve refused it, so tough shit for you buddy.
:D
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 02, 2007, 05:04:21 PM
Quote from: ""RobertBruce""
Cindy complained:
Quote
I am not going to reasearch this one. Provide a link where it states it was ruled a Homicide.
Cindy you don't research anything, you also routinley demand that others find evidence against your claims, that you never backed up to begin with. Don't cry now when I do the same thing to you. Apparently it is good enough for you to make a claim and let it be at that. I can see the source right now and will PM to whomever else asks me, you however dont back up your claims to me, so I see no reason to back up mine to you. Maybe if you ask me nicely I'll reconsider just because its as much fun frustrating you as it is proving you wrong.
Okay I'll do your work for you .....
A grand jury did not issue any indictments. Jerry McLaurin, 14 years old 11/2/99, New Horizons Ranch, Restraint
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 02, 2007, 05:10:47 PM
So by that rationale if you murder someone, and then get away with you didn't murder him. How did he die then?>
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 02, 2007, 05:26:20 PM
Quote from: ""RobertBruce""
So by that rationale if you murder someone, and then get away with you didn't murder him. How did he die then?>
So what you are saying is we need to review every incident during that time period and decide for ourselves if we want to overrule the authorities and deem them a homicide or suicide. This includes all the incidents that the NCES reviewed also since they may not feel the same way you do. I suggest the easier way is to contact the authorities and have them change the ruling.......
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anonymous on February 02, 2007, 05:31:34 PM
Robert, THE WHO's round-and-round nonsense arguments are a lot like Sue Scheff's testimony in the WWASP vs PURE transcript when she is talking about a school she referred to for money: Red Rock Canyon Ranch. Scheff was trying to "explain away the death" of a young girl who died at this facility, Katie Lank. Scheff testifies: "First of all, Katie died at the hospital, she didn't die at the school."
Well, yes: technically Scheff is correct---this child was airlifted to the hospital where she died: But, this girl was killed at Red Rock Canyon Ranch.
The WHO, much like Sue Scheff--would argue this way, too.
Why do you bother with him, Robert? He's like Sue Scheff---he cares nothing about children who died in these programs.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 02, 2007, 05:32:01 PM
If you feel the need to do so by all means knock yourself out. For me and most others with a degree of common sense recognizing the fact that the kid went in there alive and came out dead is sufficent. Afterall, you didnt care how the kids in public school died, or what if any convictions came as a result of their deaths. Why should you now care how these kids died (espically since we already know it came at the hands of their care givers) when you all you would really like to do is dismiss their deaths alltogether.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anonymous on February 02, 2007, 05:32:45 PM
CAN YOU LIMIT THIS POINTLESS, HOPELESS, JOKE OF AN ARGUMENT TO ONE FUCKING THREAD?!
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 02, 2007, 05:33:10 PM
Quote
Why do you bother with him, Robert? He's like Sue Scheff---he cares nothing about children who died in these programs.
I know. He's obsessed with his credibility (not that he ever had any) I'm making sure parents dont ever waste their time on him.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 02, 2007, 05:34:15 PM
Quote from: ""Milk Gargling Death Penalty""
CAN YOU LIMIT THIS POINTLESS, HOPELESS, JOKE OF AN ARGUMENT TO ONE FUCKING THREAD?!
Yes, Lets keep it to one thread !!!
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 02, 2007, 05:36:08 PM
Youre the one spreading your nonsense further.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 02, 2007, 05:37:21 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Robert, THE WHO's round-and-round nonsense arguments are a lot like Sue Scheff's testimony in the WWASP vs PURE transcript when she is talking about a school she referred to for money: Red Rock Canyon Ranch. Scheff was trying to "explain away the death" of a young girl who died at this facility, Katie Lank. Scheff testifies: "First of all, Katie died at the hospital, she didn't die at the school."
Well, yes: technically Scheff is correct---this child was airlifted to the hospital where she died: But, this girl was killed at Red Rock Canyon Ranch.
The WHO, much like Sue Scheff--would argue this way, too.
Why do you bother with him, Robert? He's like Sue Scheff---he cares nothing about children who died in these programs.
I am finished with the data collection. Bob is just trying to find more data to add. The parameters are clear. I am not the one rejecting them.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 02, 2007, 05:43:30 PM
Yet three kids deaths so far you've claimed "don't count". This is of course after you changed your parameters from comparing "school safety" to "child safety in the public sector", and added about 4000 deaths to your original count refusing to differentiate between in school and out of school all as a means of portraying public schools as somehow more dangerous than TBS's when the data clearly shows everyone with even a degree of common sense otherwise. On top of that I asked you what the parameters were and you mentioned nothing about only TBS's being included, only after you got your ass handed to you (again) did you try and change the rules again. Now youre getting upset because once again it isnt going your way and youre out of excuses.
You remind me of an 8 year old Cindy, really. Youre cry baby attitude, and insistence on getting your way, and refusal to recognize the truth shows a serious lack of maturity on your part. Maybe its time you grow up a little Cindy.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anonymous on February 02, 2007, 05:52:15 PM
Quote from: ""RobertBruce""
You remind me of an 8 year old Cindy, really.
No insulting the kids.
Especially not on this forum.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 02, 2007, 05:53:49 PM
Quote from: ""RobertBruce""
Yet three kids deaths so far you've claimed "don't count". This is of course after you changed your parameters from comparing "school safety" to "child safety in the public sector", and added about 4000 deaths to your original count refusing to differentiate between in school and out of school all as a means of portraying public schools as somehow more dangerous than TBS's when the data clearly shows everyone with even a degree of common sense otherwise. On top of that I asked you what the parameters were and you mentioned nothing about only TBS's being included, only after you got your ass handed to you (again) did you try and change the rules again. Now youre getting upset because once again it isnt going your way and youre out of excuses.
You remind me of an 8 year old Cindy, really. Youre cry baby attitude, and insistence on getting your way, and refusal to recognize the truth shows a serious lack of maturity on your part. Maybe its time you grow up a little Cindy.
Well if that is the way you see it, thats okay. The parameters were clear and are clear. I cant change a judges ruling to satisfy what you think, Bob. I would like to...but if we did it for the ones you sent we would have to do the same thing in the public sector data supplied by the NCES. Neither one of us is qualified to do that. We have to work within the frame work that has been set up. You can blame me for the rulings if you like. But the data needs to stand and meet the criteria otherwise it cant be compared.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 02, 2007, 06:02:08 PM
Quote from: ""RobertBruce""
Yet three kids deaths so far you've claimed "don't count". This is of course after you changed your parameters from comparing "school safety" to "child safety in the public sector", and added about 4000 deaths to your original count refusing to differentiate between in school and out of school all as a means of portraying public schools as somehow more dangerous than TBS's when the data clearly shows everyone with even a degree of common sense otherwise. On top of that I asked you what the parameters were and you mentioned nothing about only TBS's being included, only after you got your ass handed to you (again) did you try and change the rules again. Now youre getting upset because once again it isnt going your way and youre out of excuses.
You remind me of an 8 year old Cindy, really. Youre cry baby attitude, and insistence on getting your way, and refusal to recognize the truth shows a serious lack of maturity on your part. Maybe its time you grow up a little Cindy.
No.....
Here take a look again:
So I am simple comparing a child?s safety at a TBS (24 hours per day) vs not being at a TBS (24 hours per day)
We have this data:
July 1, 1999 thru June 2000 School aged children
Outside a TBS: There where 2,140 Homicides and 1,928 suicides Inside a TBS There where 0 Homicides and 2 suicides.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 02, 2007, 06:06:33 PM
Quote
Well if that is the way you see it, thats okay.
I know that's exactly what happened, I don't need your reassurance but thanks anyway.
Quote
The parameters were clear and are clear
You're right they were.
Quote
RobertBruce wrote: Okay sounds great. What are the parameters?
Homicides or suicides between the time July 1, 1999 thru June 2000 occuring at a TBS
You didn't say resulting in a conviction, or was ruled as, you simply said was a homicide or suicide. That's exactly what you've been given and now when once again it doesnt go your way youre trying to change the rules. Sorry Cindy it doesnt work that way, again you didnt insist on convictions for the deaths in public schools, all that mattered were that the kids were dead.
Quote
I cant change a judges ruling to satisfy what you think, Bob. I would like to...but if we did it for the ones you sent we would have to do the same thing in the public sector data supplied by the NCES.
But again you didnt feel those rulings or convictions were neccesary to count the deaths in the public sector so either accept that, that criteria is not neccesary for private sector deaths, or throw out all the deaths on your list that did not result in being ruled as a homicide. Once again you cannot have it both ways Cindy.
Quote
Neither one of us is qualified to do that. We have to work within the frame work that has been set up. You can blame me for the rulings if you like. But the data needs to stand and meet the criteria otherwise it cant be compared.
Oh no I dont blame you as an apologist, youre so brainwashed you dont know what youre doing. You are right about one thing though the criteria needs to be the same for both sides, so either research all 2140 deaths and exclude any which did not result in a conviction as a homicide or accept that the rulings are not neccesary since we can already established that the kids in the private sector were killed by their care givers.
Let me know.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 02, 2007, 06:20:26 PM
Quote
We have this data:
July 1, 1999 thru June 2000 School aged children
Outside a TBS: There where 2,140 Homicides and 1,928 suicides Inside a TBS There where 0 Homicides and 2 suicides.
From now on please change that post to "I have this data"
Youre the only one Cindy, the rest of us are smart enough to accept the truth.
Here's what we have so far:
Out of 52,000,000 public school kids 16 were killed in school
Translating to 1 out of every 3,250,000 kids being killed.
Out of those 52,000,000 6 committed suicide while in school.
Translating to 1 out of 8,666,667 kids killing themselves.
Of those same 52,000,000 kids 2140 were killed outside of school.
Translating to 1 out of every 24,300 kids being killed.
Of those same 52,000,000 public school kids 1928 kids committed suicide outside of school.
Translating to roughly 1 out of every 27,000 kids committing suicide.
Out of 30,000 kids in the private theraputic sector so far we have 3 who were killed by staff members.
Translating to 1 out of every 10,000 kids being murdered by staff.
Of those same 30,000 kids 2 committed suicide.
Translating to 1 out of every 15,000 committing suicide.
That's what we have right now Cindy. You can have whatever you like, just understand no one else is buying it and youre dead wrong.
Not that, that's ever mattered to you before.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anonymous on February 02, 2007, 06:36:04 PM
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 02, 2007, 06:45:54 PM
No, wrong again Bob..... these are all the accepted rulings by judges (not myself).
Here take a look again:
So I am simple comparing a child?s safety at a TBS (24 hours per day) vs not being at a TBS (24 hours per day)
We have this data:
July 1, 1999 thru June 2000 School aged children
Outside a TBS: There where 2,140 Homicides and 1,928 suicides Inside a TBS There where 0 Homicides and 2 suicides.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anonymous on February 02, 2007, 06:57:26 PM
Cut it out! Both of you! Ya look like idiots.
Christ, get a fucking room already.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Nihilanthic on February 02, 2007, 07:02:23 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
No, wrong again Bob..... these are all the accepted rulings by judges (not myself).
Here take a look again:
So I am simple comparing a child?s safety at a TBS (24 hours per day) vs not being at a TBS (24 hours per day)
We have this data:
July 1, 1999 thru June 2000 School aged children
Outside a TBS: There where 2,140 Homicides and 1,928 suicides Inside a TBS There where 0 Homicides and 2 suicides.
And how many kids are in a TBS vs kids not in a TBS?
Sorry I cant find 1999-2000 statistics, but my point still stands.
There are 73,469,984 people under the age of 18 as of 2005. Thats a 1:34331.768 chance of being killed in homicide, 1:38106.838 chance of suicide.
Debs last estimate was about 20,000 kids in programs. Also, being killed in a program via restraint or negligence is not counted as homicide, so I'll just go by the two suicides. Thats a 1:10,000 chance of suicide.
So, uh, basically, you just demonstrated you're 3x more likely to kill yourself in a program than not in one.
CONGRATULATIONS.
EDIT:
I just checked wikipedia. The chance of suicide for a teenager is actually closer to 1:11764.705, which is about 1.5:100,000 higher than in a program assuming the 20,000 kids in programs figure Deborah was able to come up with.
It maybe low but it is still higher.
Now, if only neglect, restraints, lack of medical care and being pushed to the edge physically and restraints were counted with program deaths vs deaths due to homicide in schools.... we might get closer to comparing apples to apples.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 02, 2007, 07:37:53 PM
Quote from: ""Nihilanthic""
Quote from: ""TheWho""
No, wrong again Bob..... these are all the accepted rulings by judges (not myself).
Here take a look again:
So I am simple comparing a child?s safety at a TBS (24 hours per day) vs not being at a TBS (24 hours per day)
We have this data:
July 1, 1999 thru June 2000 School aged children
Outside a TBS: There where 2,140 Homicides and 1,928 suicides Inside a TBS There where 0 Homicides and 2 suicides.
And how many kids are in a TBS vs kids not in a TBS?
Sorry I cant find 1999-2000 statistics, but my point still stands.
There are 73,469,984 people under the age of 18 as of 2005. Thats a 1:34331.768 chance of being killed in homicide, 1:38106.838 chance of suicide.
Debs last estimate was about 20,000 kids in programs. Also, being killed in a program via restraint or negligence is not counted as homicide, so I'll just go by the two suicides. Thats a 1:10,000 chance of suicide.
So, uh, basically, you just demonstrated you're 3x more likely to kill yourself in a program than not in one.
CONGRATULATIONS.
EDIT:
I just checked wikipedia. The chance of suicide for a teenager is actually closer to 1:11764.705, which is about 1.5:100,000 higher than in a program assuming the 20,000 kids in programs figure Deborah was able to come up with.
It maybe low but it is still higher.
Now, if only neglect, restraints, lack of medical care and being pushed to the edge physically and restraints were counted with program deaths vs deaths due to homicide in schools.... we might get closer to comparing apples to apples.
Thanks Niles, I have been trying to get this thru to the knuckle head for hours. Sometimes it takes an outside view to clarify things. We need to use the same criteria the NCSE uses when determining Suicide and Homicides.
If we could get the NCES to capture this data (restraints, lack of medical care, being pushed over the edge etc.) in the public sector we could start to compare and I think that would be valuable info for parents to look at when weighing their decision.
As we compare more years (2001 to date) the picture should become a little clearer.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Nihilanthic on February 02, 2007, 07:39:14 PM
Why should they be put into a program until we know it's safe in the first place?
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 02, 2007, 07:52:26 PM
Quote from: ""Nihilanthic""
Why should they be put into a program until we know it's safe in the first place?
They shouldnt. This is data that can be developed over time to help parents determine the safest place for their kids (if they need to be placed outside the home).
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 02, 2007, 07:52:57 PM
Because Cindy gets a check everytime he convinces a parent to put their kids into one.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Nihilanthic on February 02, 2007, 07:53:39 PM
Yet they are there now.
And you put your kid in a program without knowing everything about it in the first hand... we still don't know much.
Except for what is corroborated by tracing names and survivor testimony painting them to be BM warehouses that use LGAT methods...
so wtf?
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 02, 2007, 07:55:50 PM
Quote
No, wrong again Bob..... these are all the accepted rulings by judges (not myself).
Cindy can you provide a link showing a ruling by a judge that no kid died in the private theraputic sector between June of 2000 and July of 2001?
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 02, 2007, 07:58:05 PM
Quote
Thanks Niles, I have been trying to get this thru to the knuckle head for hours. Sometimes it takes an outside view to clarify things. We need to use the same criteria the NCSE uses when determining Suicide and Homicides.
But we are. See Cindy the way it works is when one person takes another persons life its called murder, now are there different degrees of murder? Absolutely, but the persons life was still taken. Unless of course you have another explination as to how these kids died?
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 02, 2007, 08:03:11 PM
Now here's something interesting:
Quote
In this indicator, a school-associated violent death is a homicide, suicide, legal intervention (involving a law enforcement officer), or unintentional firearm-related death in which the fatal injury occurred on the campus
I wonder if these places would consider restraints "legal intervention"?
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Nihilanthic on February 02, 2007, 08:04:14 PM
Considering the restraint is illegal, I'd say its an illegal intervention.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 02, 2007, 08:09:19 PM
Quote from: ""Nihilanthic""
Considering the restraint is illegal, I'd say its an illegal intervention.
If we can get the NCES to include these then we can also. We would have something to compare it to.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 02, 2007, 08:13:55 PM
Quote from: ""RobertBruce""
Quote
Thanks Niles, I have been trying to get this thru to the knuckle head for hours. Sometimes it takes an outside view to clarify things. We need to use the same criteria the NCSE uses when determining Suicide and Homicides.
But we are. See Cindy the way it works is when one person takes another persons life its called murder, now are there different degrees of murder? Absolutely, but the persons life was still taken. Unless of course you have another explination as to how these kids died?
Yes but see in the public sector they have strict rules on how events are classified so that they can be measured. If one state includes "accidental death" as homicides and another doesnt it would never work. The parameters need to be clear and the same for all, what ever the court decision is that is what they go with.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 02, 2007, 08:14:02 PM
So then so far we have the following:
Candace Newmaker
10 years old 4/18/2000 Evergreen Attachment Center
Jerry McLaurin 14 years old
11/2/99
New Horizons Ranch Restraint
Joshua Sharpe 17 years old 12/28/99 Wisconsin Treatment Center Restraint
Michael Ibarra-Wiltsie 12 years old 2/5/2000 Eckert Youth Alternatives Asphyxia -- Restraint sat on by 320 pound counselor.
Randy Steele 9 years old 2/6/2000 Laurel Ridge Restraint...in the scuffle he vomited then stopped breathing. After reviving he was transferred to a hospital where he died the next day. Had been restrained 25 times in 28 days prior to death.
Sabrina E. Day 15 years old 2/10/2000 North Carolina Group Home Restraint
Willie Wright 9 years old 2/4/2000 Southwest Mental Health Stopped breathing while in restraint
There's a good start for you Cindy. Spin away.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 02, 2007, 08:17:21 PM
Quote
Considering the restraint is illegal, I'd say its an illegal intervention.
If the restraint is illegal then the kids were murdered. If they are legal than it is a legal intervention no different than whats included in the criteria for deaths of kids in public schools.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 02, 2007, 08:18:20 PM
Quote
If we can get the NCES to include these then we can also. We would have something to compare it to.
Cindy how many examples do you think you'll find of school staff members killing their students?
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 02, 2007, 08:22:23 PM
Ha,Ha,Ha, Great bob -- but look at the criteria, if they fit add them. The ones you listed do not....... you are funny. It is so easy...Homicide is defined and so is Suicide. You can say 100 kids died as a result of Homicides but at some point y0u need to produce the evidence. Niles sees it... why cant you.
Its embarrassing, its like being at the store and you walk up to the counter and the guy says it comes to $5.00 and you keep throwing a buck on the counter. and this continues over and over. Its really simple, just look at the parameters.......
Here take a look again:
So I am simple comparing a child?s safety at a TBS (24 hours per day) vs not being at a TBS (24 hours per day)
We have this data:
July 1, 1999 thru June 2000 School aged children
Outside a TBS: There where 2,140 Homicides and 1,928 suicides Inside a TBS There where 0 Homicides and 2 suicides.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 02, 2007, 08:23:14 PM
Quote
Yes but see in the public sector they have strict rules on how events are classified so that they can be measured. If one state includes "accidental death" as homicides and another doesnt it would never work. The parameters need to be clear and the same for all, what ever the court decision is that is what they go with.
I love how you couldnt work up the courage to answer the question. Typical. If these kids werent murdered how did they die? Also if a child was in your care and they died in the same manner would you be charged with a crime? The fact that these things arent ruled as homicides is part of the problem, these schools self regulate. Whenever a kid dies they do everything they can to sweep it under the rug including suing parents to keep them silent, they chalk up the deaths to some nonsense by bringing in their own M.E. . Ive provided you examples of this, let me know if need them again.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 02, 2007, 08:24:53 PM
Quote from: ""RobertBruce""
Quote
If we can get the NCES to include these then we can also. We would have something to compare it to.
Cindy how many examples do you think you'll find of school staff members killing their students?
Maybe not many, how many gang related deaths occur at a TBS?
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Nihilanthic on February 02, 2007, 08:25:07 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Ha,Ha,Ha, Great bob -- but look at the criteria, if they fit add them. The ones you listed do not....... you are funny. It is so easy...Homicide is defined and so is Suicide. You can say 100 kids died as a result of Homicides but at some point y0u need to produce the evidence. Niles sees it... why cant you.
Its embarrassing, its like being at the store and you walk up to the counter and the guy says it comes to $5.00 and you keep throwing a buck on the counter. and this continues over and over. Its really simple, just look at the parameters.......
Here take a look again:
So I am simple comparing a child?s safety at a TBS (24 hours per day) vs not being at a TBS (24 hours per day)
We have this data:
July 1, 1999 thru June 2000 School aged children
Outside a TBS: There where 2,140 Homicides and 1,928 suicides Inside a TBS There where 0 Homicides and 2 suicides.
So?
Programs should have trained experts to prevent stuff from happening, yet the suicide rate sure is higher in a TBS than the TEEN SUICIDE RATE, PERIOD. Not in school, the TEEN suicide rate, period, for all teens.
Oh well.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 02, 2007, 08:26:12 PM
Quote from: ""RobertBruce""
Quote
Yes but see in the public sector they have strict rules on how events are classified so that they can be measured. If one state includes "accidental death" as homicides and another doesnt it would never work. The parameters need to be clear and the same for all, what ever the court decision is that is what they go with.
I love how you couldnt work up the courage to answer the question. Typical. If these kids werent murdered how did they die? Also if a child was in your care and they died in the same manner would you be charged with a crime? The fact that these things arent ruled as homicides is part of the problem, these schools self regulate. Whenever a kid dies they do everything they can to sweep it under the rug including suing parents to keep them silent, they chalk up the deaths to some nonsense by bringing in their own M.E. . Ive provided you examples of this, let me know if need them again.
Bob!! Ha,Ha,....look at the judges ruling.. thats what they get paid to do. That what the NCES does
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 02, 2007, 08:29:23 PM
Quote from: ""Nihilanthic""
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Ha,Ha,Ha, Great bob -- but look at the criteria, if they fit add them. The ones you listed do not....... you are funny. It is so easy...Homicide is defined and so is Suicide. You can say 100 kids died as a result of Homicides but at some point y0u need to produce the evidence. Niles sees it... why cant you.
Its embarrassing, its like being at the store and you walk up to the counter and the guy says it comes to $5.00 and you keep throwing a buck on the counter. and this continues over and over. Its really simple, just look at the parameters.......
Here take a look again:
So I am simple comparing a child?s safety at a TBS (24 hours per day) vs not being at a TBS (24 hours per day)
We have this data:
July 1, 1999 thru June 2000 School aged children
Outside a TBS: There where 2,140 Homicides and 1,928 suicides Inside a TBS There where 0 Homicides and 2 suicides.
So?
Programs should have trained experts to prevent stuff from happening, yet the suicide rate sure is higher in a TBS than the TEEN SUICIDE RATE, PERIOD. Not in school, the TEEN suicide rate, period, for all teens.
Oh well.
If some one is hell bent on taking their life, it is going to happen. 24 hour suicide watch isnt even 100% effective, our penal system tells us that. What we hope the TBS does is help some of these kids with therapy to help prevent/reduce these events and get them on a new track.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 02, 2007, 08:33:46 PM
Quote
Ha,Ha,Ha, Great bob -- but look at the criteria, if they fit add them. The ones you listed do not....... you are funny. It is so easy...Homicide is defined and so is Suicide. You can say 100 kids died as a result of Homicides but at some point y0u need to produce the evidence. Niles sees it... why cant you.
Niles sees that they should be listed and charged as homicides. I agree, you however never declared in your parameters that there needed to be charges filed. You've never answered the question. If these kids werent murdered how did they die?
Quote
Its embarrassing, its like being at the store and you walk up to the counter and the guy says it comes to $5.00 and you keep throwing a buck on the counter. and this continues over and over. Its really simple, just look at the parameters.......
It's funny because at the same time you're like a kid playing a game who constantly has to change the rules to ensure victory. All the while insisting that certian rules only apply at certain times to certain people. Namely when its convienent for you. Just like an eight year old, I told you were turning this into somethig with winning and losing. Yet despite your best efforts at cheating, youre still losing.
Quote
Here take a look again:
So I am simple comparing a child?s safety at a TBS (24 hours per day) vs not being at a TBS (24 hours per day)
We have this data:
July 1, 1999 thru June 2000 School aged children
Outside a TBS: There where 2,140 Homicides and 1,928 suicides Inside a TBS There where 0 Homicides and 2 suicides.
Cindy you were already told not to use the word "we", its just you and you alone. Try and pay attention.
Here's what "we" have:
Out of 52,000,000 public school kids 16 were killed in school
Translating to 1 out of every 3,250,000 kids being killed.
Out of those 52,000,000 6 committed suicide while in school.
Translating to 1 out of 8,666,667 kids killing themselves.
Of those same 52,000,000 kids 2140 were killed outside of school.
Translating to 1 out of every 24,300 kids being killed.
Of those same 52,000,000 public school kids 1928 kids committed suicide outside of school.
Translating to roughly 1 out of every 27,000 kids committing suicide.
Out of 30,000 kids in the private theraputic sector so far we have 7 who were killed by staff members.
Translating to 1 out of every 4,286 kids being murdered by staff.
Of those same 30,000 kids 2 committed suicide.
Translating to 1 out of every 15,000 committing suicide.
That's what we have right now Cindy. You can have whatever you like, just understand no one else is buying it and youre dead wrong.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 02, 2007, 08:38:33 PM
Quote
You've never answered the question. If these kids werent murdered how did they die?
easy answer, Bob.... do what the NCES does look at the court ruling. If it is a homicide add it to the list if it isnt dont add it. We pay these people to protect us and make these classifications for us so we can have a level playing field. It blows me away that you dont know this.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: teachback on February 02, 2007, 08:39:04 PM
Seriously, the two of you should give it a rest for a while or just pm each other... this is getting old..
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 02, 2007, 08:39:28 PM
Quote
Maybe not many, how many gang related deaths occur at a TBS?
No clue. Why don't you look into that?
I'll tell you what, since you're too stupid to see the truth for what it is, and you've already stated you arent interested in learning the truth, I'll meet you half way.
I will concede that a kid is more likely to die as a result of a homicide (a death which fits the legal definition of a homicide and results in a conviction of some degree of murder) in a public school or a public setting then he is in a TBS or private sector theraputic enviroment. If you will concede that a kid is more likely to kill himself in a TBS or private theraputic enviroment and is more likely to die from an "accidental death" at the hands of the staff members, then he is at a public school.
Do we have an understanding?
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 02, 2007, 08:41:36 PM
Quote
easy answer, Bob.... do what the NCES does look at the court ruling. If it is a homicide add it to the list if it isnt dont add it. We pay these people to protect us and make these classifications for us so we can have a level playing field. It blows me away that you dont know this.
Oh but I do Cindy, I went to college and everything. What I'm saying is that these places do commit homicides, they just arent classified as such because they regulate themselves, and I'm still looking for you to tell me if these kids werent murdered how did they die? Also if you had a child in your care and they died in a similar manner would you be charged with anything.
Before you dodge that answer though take a look at my last post. This is going around in circles and youre too stupid to ever get it.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Nihilanthic on February 02, 2007, 08:44:55 PM
Two suicides vs over a thousand, until I bring in sample size, then its "well if they are hell bent on taking thier life nothing can stop them"
[troll5]
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 02, 2007, 08:46:58 PM
Quote from: ""RobertBruce""
Quote
Maybe not many, how many gang related deaths occur at a TBS?
No clue. Why don't you look into that?
I'll tell you what, since you're too stupid to see the truth for what it is, and you've already stated you arent interested in learning the truth, I'll meet you half way.
I will concede that a kid is more likely to die as a result of a homicide (a death which fits the legal definition of a homicide and results in a conviction of some degree of murder) in a public school or a public setting then he is in a TBS or private sector theraputic enviroment. If you will concede that a kid is more likely to kill himself in a TBS or private theraputic enviroment and is more likely to die from an "accidental death" at the hands of the staff members, then he is at a public school.
Do we have an understanding?
I could see that as probable outcome. Public schools and the kids homes dont have staff members so the rate would be higher at a TBS.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Nihilanthic on February 02, 2007, 08:48:08 PM
So you say staff members are why the rate is higher?
:rofl:
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: teachback on February 02, 2007, 08:48:38 PM
Quote from: ""Nihilanthic""
Two suicides vs over a thousand, until I bring in sample size, then its "well if they are hell bent on taking thier life nothing can stop them"
[troll5]
Sometimes I wonder if TheWho's primary function is to act as a decoy to try to 'keep us busy' or something, because he sure seems to be doing a good job of it..
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 02, 2007, 08:52:20 PM
I went to college and everything... Ha,Ha, great line. I didnt mean to ding you, I was serious, I thought you knew this stuff. All the data is already categorized for us we cant just change it around because we feel this one or that one is a homicide and change the judges decision because we feel like it, The NCES doesnt do that.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Nihilanthic on February 02, 2007, 08:54:13 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
I went to college and everything... Ha,Ha, great line. I didnt mean to ding you, I was serious, I thought you knew this stuff. All the data is already categorized for us we cant just change it around because we feel this one or that one is a homicide and change the judges decision because we feel like it, The NCES doesnt do that.
So says YOU??
Wow, who needs context when you have spin!
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 02, 2007, 08:56:20 PM
Quote from: ""Nihilanthic""
So you say staff members are why the rate is higher?
:rofl:
I am saying if we compared kids being killed by staff members in the public sector vs in a TBS. The TBS may be higher becasue kids are not exposed to staff members in the public sector. In TBS's they are exposed to them day and night so the probability would be higher, in my opinion.
Like the chances of getting bite by a dog is higher if you work at a dog pound.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Nihilanthic on February 02, 2007, 08:57:22 PM
I thought this was safety of a kid in a program vs out of a program.
Now you go and split hairs and try to change what the debate is about?
Riiiiight.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 02, 2007, 09:01:01 PM
Quote from: ""Nihilanthic""
I thought this was safety of a kid in a program vs out of a program.
Now you go and split hairs and try to change what the debate is about?
Riiiiight.
Not sure what you mean, thats what the data is for. We cant base this on my opinion
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: teachback on February 02, 2007, 09:01:40 PM
This debate is NOW about whether TheWho is a decoy or not.
Niles? Whaddya think? :rofl:
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 02, 2007, 09:01:41 PM
Quote from: ""TheWho""
I went to college and everything... Ha,Ha, great line. I didnt mean to ding you, I was serious, I thought you knew this stuff. All the data is already categorized for us we cant just change it around because we feel this one or that one is a homicide and change the judges decision because we feel like it, The NCES doesnt do that.
I doubt you could "ding" anyone. As I said I am well aware that TBS's fight tooth and nail to have the deaths at their establishments ruled as anything other than a homicide, and generally succeed. My argument centers on that simply because they work to term it something else doesnt change what it really is. If you can't get this then you're much more naive then I thought. In the meantime you may want to do a little backreading, I've made numerous comments regarding how often TBS's kill a kid and claim something else entirely, a kid beaten to death died of complications from sickle cell, a kid is restrained face down in a puddle and it becomes "excitable heart syndrome". You need to learn to pay closer attention Cindy. It would save you alot of headaches.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 02, 2007, 09:02:50 PM
Quote
Not sure what you mean, thats what the data is for. We cant base this on my opinion
Like I said, Cindy is an eight year old who has to change the rules of the game at will, anything to try and win. That and his credibility are all he cares about.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anonymous on February 02, 2007, 09:03:13 PM
:o
Niles... read what Who wrote, again.
Quote
I am saying if we compared kids being killed by staff members in the public sector vs in a TBS. The TBS may be higher becasue kids are not exposed to staff members in the public sector.
Says it all.
(In point of fact, the public sector does, in fact, hire people as "staff". They're just not murderous savages like you'd find in the average TBS.)
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: teachback on February 02, 2007, 09:04:01 PM
I'd like my pizza well-done, MGDP. :evil:
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Nihilanthic on February 02, 2007, 09:04:26 PM
No, I didn't want to take all the fun for myself.
But yes, milk, thank you for saying TheWho basically admits that staff at programs are a problem!
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 02, 2007, 09:04:31 PM
Quote
I could see that as probable outcome. Public schools and the kids homes dont have staff members so the rate would be higher at a TBS.
MY GOD!!!! HE'S PARTIALLY SEEN THE LIGHT!!!!
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 02, 2007, 09:04:46 PM
If we could add a category that "compared kids getting hurt by staff "by NCES then we could compare it to TBS. Maybe the NCES could define staff as teachers and cleaning personel etc. and collect this data. Then we could make a fairly direct comparison.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Nihilanthic on February 02, 2007, 09:05:34 PM
Yes, if the programs would cooperate with that.
Now, Who, where is the problem there, exactly?
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: teachback on February 02, 2007, 09:10:47 PM
Quote from: ""Nihilanthic""
Yes, if the programs would cooperate with that.
Now, Who, where is the problem there, exactly?
Being in remote areas or out of the US entirely?
Not enough legislation for things like giving children the right to an attorney & due process before being sent away somewhere?
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Nihilanthic on February 02, 2007, 09:11:34 PM
Simply "they won't say because they can't be made to and don't keep records anyway" would suffice.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 02, 2007, 09:11:39 PM
Quote from: ""RobertBruce""
Quote from: ""TheWho""
I went to college and everything... Ha,Ha, great line. I didnt mean to ding you, I was serious, I thought you knew this stuff. All the data is already categorized for us we cant just change it around because we feel this one or that one is a homicide and change the judges decision because we feel like it, The NCES doesnt do that.
I doubt you could "ding" anyone. As I said I am well aware that TBS's fight tooth and nail to have the deaths at their establishments ruled as anything other than a homicide, and generally succeed. My argument centers on that simply because they work to term it something else doesnt change what it really is. If you can't get this then you're much more naive then I thought. In the meantime you may want to do a little backreading, I've made numerous comments regarding how often TBS's kill a kid and claim something else entirely, a kid beaten to death died of complications from sickle cell, a kid is restrained face down in a puddle and it becomes "excitable heart syndrome". You need to learn to pay closer attention Cindy. It would save you alot of headaches.
Sure they do , this everywhere, Bob, the school district doesnt want to be sued either. But we need to go by what the judge says, that is one standard that applies to both the public sector and TBS. Why do you think, out of all the professionals are done that you can come up and change the ruling because of what you feel is right. That just amazes me. Like adding that little girl who traveled to someones home to get therapy and you wanted to add her to the list of kids killed in TBS's. If you truly believe you are right by doing this it really amazes me. of course her death is important.... I dont think you undertand what parameters mean, you keep trying to add all this stuff that doesnt even apply
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 02, 2007, 09:16:13 PM
Quote from: ""Nihilanthic""
Yes, if the programs would cooperate with that.
Now, Who, where is the problem there, exactly?
well thats true, I am sure the parents arent ging to call DSS everytime they accidently break their kids arm and the TBS are not going to call the police in every event and the public school sector also if they can calm things down. So it would be tough to get their arms around some honest data.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Nihilanthic on February 02, 2007, 09:18:03 PM
They're SUPPOSED to notify the proper authorities and keep records of it anyway.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 02, 2007, 09:19:23 PM
Quote from: ""TS Waygookin""
You can get your arm around something with a broken arm? Impressive.
Ha,Ha,Ha, good catch...........
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 02, 2007, 09:21:39 PM
Quote from: ""Nihilanthic""
They're SUPPOSED to notify the proper authorities and keep records of it anyway.
Yea, I know they are. But we both know that if they can calm things down and get everyone to talk and appologize and no ambulance is needed, then no paper work is generated and no phone calls made...
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anonymous on February 02, 2007, 09:27:37 PM
No paperwork generated?
Bullshit.
Paperwork is generated every single time there's a restraint of any kind in the public sector.
I strongly recommend everyone read Bernard Chapin's "Escape from Gangsta Island" to see how real, non-sadistic people deal with dangerous kids.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 02, 2007, 10:55:31 PM
Quote
Sure they do , this everywhere, Bob, the school district doesnt want to be sued either
Show me a recent example of an attempt to cover up the death of a student by a public school board.
Quote
But we need to go by what the judge says, that is one standard that applies to both the public sector and TBS. Why do you think, out of all the professionals are done that you can come up and change the ruling because of what you feel is right.
The professionals? Len Buccelato is a professional, Sue Scheff is a professional, the M.E who claimed that the kid who was beat to death died of sickle cell was a professional. Being a professional doesnt always mean anything. As for the judges, they cannot rule on what they do not know. Thats what you are refusing to accept. These places cover these deaths up as best they can and very few are ever brought to justice. Youre acting as if the schools are behaving properly whenever one of these "accidents" occurs, notifying the proper authorities and a judge is looking at the situation and saying "Well boys will be boys." No Cindy they're covering it up as best they can. More and more you expose just how naive you are. What's more you claim you're applying the same standard to both the public and private sector yet you have no way of knowing if that standard has been applied to the public sector.
Quote
Like adding that little girl who traveled to someones home to get therapy and you wanted to add her to the list of kids killed in TBS's. If you truly believe you are right by doing this it really amazes me. of course her death is important....
Not to you it isnt. If it was you would include it, but unfortunatly for her she throws off your agenda so out she goes. The fact of the matter is that this girls parents paid 7000.00 for their daughter to be placed in a lock down facility with a theraputic component. Not as you are trying to paint it, something along the lines of she dropped by her friends house who happened to be a therapist and there was a terrible accident. Just another example of you trying to spin things to suit your own agenda.
Quote
I dont think you undertand what parameters mean, you keep trying to add all this stuff that doesnt even apply
I'm not but even if I was it wouldnt be all that different than you suddenly wanting to switch from "school safety" to "public sector safety" or suddenly insisting that a homicide conviction was neccesary to count a private theraputic sector death (something you still havent provided for the deaths in public schools). I asked you what the parameters were and you stated homicides and suicides between June of 99 to July of 2000, you mentioned nothing about only TBS's. Then when you found out there were a number deaths in wilderness, group homes, institutes et cet you suddenly changed the parameters....again. Like I said Cindy you're a child who's upset you arent getting your way. Nothing more.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 02, 2007, 11:01:15 PM
Quote
well thats true, I am sure the parents arent ging to call DSS everytime they accidently break their kids arm and the TBS are not going to call the police in every event and the public school sector also if they can calm things down. So it would be tough to get their arms around some honest data.
Why shouldnt they? If they were truly concerned about the kids safety they would. You claim to run a factory of some sort, if one of your workers were seriously injured on the job wouldnt you report it to the proper authorities? Union officials? OSHA? You would if you wanted to be operating properly.
Speaking of which I notice you still havent answered my question regarding what would happen to you if you had a child in your care and they died in the same manner as these kids have died.
Also Im still waiting on you to tell me if the kids werent murdered how did they die?
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 02, 2007, 11:04:19 PM
Quote
Yea, I know they are. But we both know that if they can calm things down and get everyone to talk and appologize and no ambulance is needed, then no paper work is generated and no phone calls made...
and youre okay with this? Wow. I stand corrected Cindy, its not that youre naive, youre just a sadistic fuck.
Youre rationale seems to be, "if you can get away with it, its fine." No wonder you bought into the TBS industry so quickly and so whole heartedly. That's practically their creedo.
No wonder your daughter hates you.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 02, 2007, 11:08:34 PM
The ironic thing in all this is that prior to Cindy trying to change all the parameters around to suit his agenda, the original discussion was a comparrison between public school safety and TBS safety.
Despite his finageling all Cindy has done in the end is reinforce that TBS's are not safe. Not only has he proven that a kid is more likely to kill himself in a TBS than in the public sector or a public school, but the kid is much more likely to suffer a fatal accident at the hand of school officals than in a public school.
Thanks again Cindy.
:D
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anonymous on February 02, 2007, 11:11:22 PM
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anonymous on February 02, 2007, 11:14:44 PM
Good. Are we done yet?
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 02, 2007, 11:25:00 PM
Doubtful, he cares about winning far to much, and hes much to big of a cry baby to ever just let it go. On the other hand the last time he was owned like this he disappeared for six months claiming something about going to russia or some other shit hole. Maybe we'll get lucky again.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anonymous on February 02, 2007, 11:30:54 PM
Quote from: ""RobertBruce""
Doubtful, he cares about winning far to much, and hes much to big of a cry baby to ever just let it go. On the other hand the last time he was owned like this he disappeared for six months claiming something about going to russia or some other shit hole. Maybe we'll get lucky again.
Naaah. Aspen's PR department is in full swing this time around.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anonymous on February 02, 2007, 11:40:14 PM
TheWho gets paid by the word. Isn't that obvious?
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anonymous on February 03, 2007, 12:24:10 AM
He's totally ripping off his employers then.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 03, 2007, 11:46:16 AM
Quote from: ""RobertBruce""
Candace Newmaker age 10
4/18/2000
Evergreen
Ha,Ha,Ha,...Who's your daddy now? (no pun intended) Okay, Bob, then explain to all of us how Candace Newmaker fits into our dataset?
Remember, we are talking about Therapuetic boarding schools.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 03, 2007, 01:19:31 PM
Quote
Ha,Ha,Ha,...Who's your daddy now? (no pun intended) Okay, Bob, then explain to all of us how Candace Newmaker fits into our dataset?
Ummmmm....Cindy we've been over this. Several times in fact. Does being owned affect your short term memory? Or maybe just your reading comprehension skills? I guess I just need to be patient with you, and you need to try harder.
Here's something to help you remember:
Quote
Not to you it isnt. If it was you would include it, but unfortunatly for her she throws off your agenda so out she goes. The fact of the matter is that this girls parents paid 7000.00 for their daughter to be placed in a lock down facility with a theraputic component. Not as you are trying to paint it, something along the lines of she dropped by her friends house who happened to be a therapist and there was a terrible accident. Just another example of you trying to spin things to suit your own agenda.
Private Theraputic Sector call it whatever you want, spin it however you want, it changes nothing. That's what it was in the end.
Quote
Remember, we are talking about Therapuetic boarding schools.
No you're talking about strickly TBS's, the rest of us are talking about the Private Theraputic Sector, specifically as it relates to teens. This includes wilderness programs, group homes, psychological institutes, teen hospitals, et cet. They all count because that's where the 30,000 come from. There aren't 30,000 kids in strickly TBS's as you define the term. Bear in mind the only reason you want to exclude those kids is because it proves our point. In the same way you after discovering how low the probability was for deaths occuring in public school suddenly felt deaths occuring outside of school were somehow pertinant to school safety and those two seperate statistics should be lumped together. Now the shoe is on the other foot and you want to exclude things because it goes against your agenda. As I said yesterday Cindy, tough shit for you. I asked you what the parameters were and you mentioned nothing about strickly TBS's. You don't get to change things now simply because it isnt going your way, you need to stop being such an ankle biter. Grow up.
Quote
Here is a link to help in your research:
Yes I saw this link yesterday. As was discussed you need to find sources with a slightly higher level of credibility than wikipedia. As it stands however there is nothing in that link that somehow suggest her death occured in anything but the private theraputic sector.
Still no way around it Cindy.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 03, 2007, 02:29:26 PM
Bob wrote:No you're talking about strickly TBS's, the rest of us are talking about the Private Theraputic Sector, specifically as it relates to teens. This includes wilderness programs, group homes, psychological institutes, teen hospitals, et cet...........
Thank you,Bob, for finally clearing up your position. Yes, I am talking about TBS?s only, and that is what my data applies to, and for parents interested in TBS's this would apply.
So let me conclude and you can add any data that you think applies and/or we can start to look at wilderness programs next:
Here take a look again:
So I am simple comparing a child?s safety at a TBS (24 hours per day) vs not being at a TBS (24 hours per day)
We have this data:
July 1, 1999 thru June 2000 School aged children
Outside a TBS: There where 2,140 Homicides and 1,928 suicides Inside a TBS There where 0 Homicides and 2 suicides.[/quote]
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 03, 2007, 02:51:46 PM
Quote
Thank you,Bob, for finally clearing up your position. Yes, I am talking about TBS?s only, and that is what my data applies to, and for parents interested in TBS's this would apply.
So youre giving parents misinformation then? Good I'm glad you can acknowledge this. Tell me something Cindy, do parents come onto fornits for information strickly related to TBS's, or is it other things as well. Also why would you seek to seperate deaths in TBS's versus those in the private theraputic sector, while you want to include deaths that occur outside of public school when discussing public school safety?
Bob wrote:No you're talking about strickly TBS's, the rest of us are talking about the Private Theraputic Sector, specifically as it relates to teens. This includes wilderness programs, group homes, psychological institutes, teen hospitals, et cet...........
Thank you,Bob, for finally clearing up your position. Yes, I am talking about TBS?s only, and that is what my data applies to, and for parents interested in TBS's this would apply.
So let me conclude and you can add any data that you think applies and/or we can start to look at wilderness programs next:
Here take a look again:
So I am simple comparing a child?s safety at a TBS (24 hours per day) vs not being at a TBS (24 hours per day)
We have this data:
July 1, 1999 thru June 2000 School aged children
Outside a TBS: There where 2,140 Homicides and 1,928 suicides Inside a TBS There where 0 Homicides and 2 suicides.
[/quote]
Cindy you were already told not to use the word 'we' any longer. There is no 'we' it's just you. 'We' have this:
Out of 52,000,000 public school kids 16 were killed in school
Translating to 1 out of every 3,250,000 kids being killed.
Out of those 52,000,000 6 committed suicide while in school.
Translating to 1 out of 8,666,667 kids killing themselves.
Of those same 52,000,000 kids 2140 were killed outside of school.
Translating to 1 out of every 24,300 kids being killed.
Of those same 52,000,000 public school kids 1928 kids committed suicide outside of school.
Translating to roughly 1 out of every 27,000 kids committing suicide.
Out of 30,000 kids in the private theraputic sector so far we have 7 who were killed by staff members.
Translating to 1 out of every 4,286 kids being murdered by staff.
Of those same 30,000 kids 2 committed suicide.
Translating to 1 out of every 15,000 committing suicide.
That's what we have right now Cindy. You can have whatever you like, just understand no one else is buying it and youre dead wrong.
This is the truth Cindy, if you really care about these kids thats what youll tell the parents seeking information. Not your propoganda piece.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anonymous on February 03, 2007, 02:56:00 PM
Quote from: ""grasshopper""
Quote from: ""Nihilanthic""
Two suicides vs over a thousand, until I bring in sample size, then its "well if they are hell bent on taking thier life nothing can stop them"
[troll5]
Sometimes I wonder if TheWho's primary function is to act as a decoy to try to 'keep us busy' or something, because he sure seems to be doing a good job of it..
.
:tup: :tup:
How many more pages are you guys going to go with this?
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anonymous on February 03, 2007, 03:09:46 PM
Silly question. He's a drama queen.
Julie
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anonymous on February 03, 2007, 03:10:49 PM
Which one?
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 03, 2007, 03:20:50 PM
Julie is talking about me, Cindy is a woman thus the correct statement would have been, "She is a drama queen."
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 03, 2007, 03:30:04 PM
Quote
Public schools and the kids homes dont have staff members so the rate would be higher at a TBS.
I just noticed this pearl of wisdom coming from Cindy. Tell us Cindy, if the public schools and kids homes dont have staff members who runs the place?
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 03, 2007, 03:33:51 PM
Well, that?s a good question. Many parents I talk to are looking for solutions and they may be interested in Wilderness or a TBS?s There are very few people I talk to that are seeking mental hospitals or group homes . But I am sure there are many people looking for group homes for their kids
If I was looking for a group home I would want statistics for group homes, not wilderness programs or TBS. So to answer your question they are all important but I believe they need to be broken out into categories so that a parent can look at each one separately depending on their child?s specific needs.
So if a parent is just interested in the safety of TBS?s it would look something like this:
So I am simple comparing a child?s safety at a TBS (24 hours per day) vs not being at a TBS (24 hours per day)
We have this data:
July 1, 1999 thru June 2000 School aged children
Outside a TBS: There where 2,140 Homicides and 1,928 suicides Inside a TBS There where 0 Homicides and 2 suicides.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 03, 2007, 03:38:40 PM
Quote
I just noticed this pearl of wisdom coming from Cindy. Tell us Cindy, if the public schools and kids homes dont have staff members who runs the place?
Well, if it were up to me and I were the NCES. I would consider the teachers, admins etc. staff and outside of school any of the people who oversee the kids while they are not at home. This way if they collected data we could compare it to TBS?s and reported abuse by staff members. The NCES would need to develop standards for collecting the data as they do for the other categories but it would give us guys a real leg up on taking a look at TBS?s in comparison. So I could see this working.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 03, 2007, 03:43:49 PM
I think if we were to start looking at another category besides TBS's , the wilderness programs may be another area that parents are interested in.
We could take 2 directions:
1. Continue to expand on the TBS data (adding more years)
2. start to look at Wilderness effectiveness as far as safety is concerned.
Group homes is another option but I dont know how many parents would be coming on here looking for advice on this topic, but on the other hand if it were high it would deflect them away so it may be a good topic.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 03, 2007, 04:32:44 PM
Quote
Well, that?s a good question. Many parents I talk to are looking for solutions and they may be interested in Wilderness or a TBS?s
Be honest Cindy, no parent wants to talk to you, you force your propoganda on them like a timeshare salesman.
Quote
There are very few people I talk to that are seeking mental hospitals or group homes . But I am sure there are many people looking for group homes for their kids
Thats because mental homes and group homes are usually steps taken after the wilderness programs and TBS's. Exactly why all the information is going to be made availble to the parents. Not your edited down version.
Quote
If I was looking for a group home I would want statistics for group homes, not wilderness programs or TBS. So to answer your question they are all important but I believe they need to be broken out into categories so that a parent can look at each one separately depending on their child?s specific needs.
This isnt a well known industry, when the parents begin looking at options they are going to look at all their options, thus they need to be provided with all the data I'm amazed that while youre crying about us not splitting up the school you somehow when looking at public school safety you felt it was fine to not differentiate between what occured in school and out of school. I'll tell you what Cindy I'll break down where each death occured just as soon as you do the same for your data.
I want to know where each of the 2140 deaths occured and if a conviction resulted in each one.
Until you are willing to do so do not ask us to provide that information or differentiate our data. The same standards will be applied.
So get to it or shut the fuck up. Either is acceptable.
Did the kids die in their homes?
Did they die in cars?
Did they die at a friends house?
Did they die on the streets?
Were any random acts of violence?
Did they die in malls?
Did they like green eggs and ham?
Youre so stuck on breaking things down and looking at them seperatly, fine. Get started.
Quote
So if a parent is just interested in the safety of TBS?s it would look something like this:
I'm not computer savy enough to post the picture I found of a bull taking a dump, but you get the general idea anyway. Maybe Milk or someone else can help me out.
Quote
We have this data:
Tell me something Cindy, who is we? Face it, it's just you.
In the meantime we have this:
Out of 52,000,000 public school kids 16 were killed in school
Translating to 1 out of every 3,250,000 kids being killed.
Out of those 52,000,000 6 committed suicide while in school.
Translating to 1 out of 8,666,667 kids killing themselves.
Of those same 52,000,000 kids 2140 were killed outside of school.
Translating to 1 out of every 24,300 kids being killed.
Of those same 52,000,000 public school kids 1928 kids committed suicide outside of school.
Translating to roughly 1 out of every 27,000 kids committing suicide.
Out of 30,000 kids in the private theraputic sector so far we have 7 who were killed by staff members.
Translating to 1 out of every 4,286 kids being murdered by staff.
Of those same 30,000 kids 2 committed suicide.
Translating to 1 out of every 15,000 committing suicide.
That's what we have right now Cindy. You can have whatever you like, just understand no one else is buying it and youre dead wrong.
This is the truth Cindy, if you really care about these kids thats what youll tell the parents seeking information. Not your propoganda piece.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anonymous on February 03, 2007, 04:35:07 PM
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 03, 2007, 04:42:20 PM
Quote
Well, if it were up to me and I were the NCES. I would consider the teachers, admins etc. staff and outside of school any of the people who oversee the kids while they are not at home. This way if they collected data we could compare it to TBS?s and reported abuse by staff members. The NCES would need to develop standards for collecting the data as they do for the other categories but it would give us guys a real leg up on taking a look at TBS?s in comparison. So I could see this working.
You didn't answer the question Cindy, since according to you there are no staff members at public schools, who runs the place? Also are you aware that NCES did include the deaths of students that came at the hands of school officals? Probably not, I imagine we could fill whole libraries with the things you don't know, and even more with the things youre unwilling to learn.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 03, 2007, 04:54:34 PM
Quote
I think if we were to start looking at another category besides TBS's , the wilderness programs may be another area that parents are interested in.
They're interested in the options availible to them Cindy, all of them, hence why all the information will be made availible to them. You continue to want to look at things backwards.
Quote
We could take 2 directions:
The rest of us are going to try forward, you on other hand will likely be riding backwards with your eyes closed.
Quote
1. Continue to expand on the TBS data (adding more years)
2. start to look at Wilderness effectiveness as far as safety is concerned.
Group homes is another option but I dont know how many parents would be coming on here looking for advice on this topic, but on the other hand if it were high it would deflect them away so it may be a good topic.
You look at it however you like Cindy, youve said before you arent interested in learning the truth, so come up with whatever delusion youre comfterable with.
The rest of us have this:
Out of 52,000,000 public school kids 16 were killed in school
Translating to 1 out of every 3,250,000 kids being killed.
Out of those 52,000,000 6 committed suicide while in school.
Translating to 1 out of 8,666,667 kids killing themselves.
Of those same 52,000,000 kids 2140 were killed outside of school.
Translating to 1 out of every 24,300 kids being killed.
Of those same 52,000,000 public school kids 1928 kids committed suicide outside of school.
Translating to roughly 1 out of every 27,000 kids committing suicide.
Out of 30,000 kids in the private theraputic sector so far we have 7 who were killed by staff members.
Translating to 1 out of every 4,286 kids being murdered by staff.
Of those same 30,000 kids 2 committed suicide.
Translating to 1 out of every 15,000 committing suicide.
That's what we have right now Cindy. You can have whatever you like, just understand no one else is buying it and youre dead wrong.
This is the truth Cindy, if you really care about these kids thats what youll tell the parents seeking information. Not your propoganda piece.
While youre evading that there are still some questions you havent been able to answer.
1. If these kids were not killed by staff members how did they die?
2. If you had a child in your care and he died in the same manner as some of these other kids would you likely be charged with anything?
3. Do you find it odd that of all the deaths that occur in the private theraputic sector charges are seldom brought?
4. If someone was hurt or killed in your factory would you deal with in the same manner these places deal with the deaths that occur in their premises?
Let me know Cindy.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 03, 2007, 05:07:26 PM
Sorry all of this upsets you so much. All the information you need is in the NCES website. If you need clarification of any specific data point you may contact them.
If a parent isn?t interested in TBS?s then they will skip over it. But for those that are it can be a valuable piece of information which will help them to make a decision. I don?t plan to make that decision for them, but I do believe the data should be made available. Why hide it?
I think most parents will take the NCES as a reliable source. If you wanted to add to the list, I have said all along that you can. You just need to meet the parameters and every time you avoid it with anger. Don?t blame the judges or NCES and require them to revisit every event just to satisfy you. Face it Bob, you have no data that fits the parameters....... if you think I have an agenda fine, get mad at me but the data is data, you just cant change it....Ha,Ha,Ha,...it just amazes me you cant see this This is too funny, everyone can see it but you, it is very simple and basic data:
So if a parent is just interested in the safety of TBS?s it would look something like this:
So I am simple comparing a child?s safety at a TBS (24 hours per day) vs not being at a TBS (24 hours per day)
We have this data:
July 1, 1999 thru June 2000 School aged children
Outside a TBS: There where 2,140 Homicides and 1,928 suicides Inside a TBS There where 0 Homicides and 2 suicides.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 03, 2007, 05:17:16 PM
Bob Wrote: While youre evading that there are still some questions you havent been able to answer.
1. If these kids were not killed by staff members how did they die?
2. If you had a child in your care and he died in the same manner as some of these other kids would you likely be charged with anything?
3. Do you find it odd that of all the deaths that occur in the private theraputic sector charges are seldom brought?
4. If someone was hurt or killed in your factory would you deal with in the same manner these places deal with the deaths that occur in their premises?
Let me know Cindy.
You are missing the whole point my results are based on what the judges think. Who are you or I to second guess their verdict or change it during data collection phase. If I feel a child was killed for a different reason it should be brought up to the authorities, I just cant walk up and make that decision, that?s why we have lawyers and court systems?.come on Bob?..I know you are smarter than this?whats your point? Ha,Ha,Ha,?.look really hard at what I have posted. They are just numbers depicting occurrences. They are based on the courts rulings.
If you would like to make your own list, knock yourself out! But this is what the courts agree to:
So if a parent is just interested in the safety of TBS?s it would look something like this:
So I am simple comparing a child?s safety at a TBS (24 hours per day) vs not being at a TBS (24 hours per day)
We have this data:
July 1, 1999 thru June 2000 School aged children
Outside a TBS: There where 2,140 Homicides and 1,928 suicides Inside a TBS There where 0 Homicides and 2 suicides.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 03, 2007, 05:34:14 PM
Is he really that dumb, or maybe the brainwashing is to such a great degree he really can't see it.
Quote
You are missing the whole point my results are based on what the judges think.
Two problems with this. The first being you have no idea what the judges were thinking, two the majority of these cases are never brought to criminal trial. That's what youre failing to understand. How can a judge rule on something he never hears about?
Quote
Who are you or I to second guess their verdict or change it during data collection phase.
How can I change a verdict that never existed?
Quote
If I feel a child was killed for a different reason it should be brought up to the authorities
If a child is killed period it should be brought to the attention of the authorities. Something you and these places don't feel is neccesary.
Quote
I just cant walk up and make that decision, that?s why we have lawyers and court systems
Lawyers and courts that are seldom involved in these cases. I cant make this any simpiler.
Quote
know you are smarter than this?
Well I'm smarter than you apparently......
Quote
whats your point
That a kid is more likely to be killed in the private theraputic sector than he is in public schools or in the public sector. This points been made several times youre just too stupid to understand it.
Quote
Ha,Ha,Ha,?.
Its sad that you feel kids dying is funny.
Quote
look really hard at what I have posted
I have, I feel it would be more appropriate in something along the lines of the Grimm Brothers, it being a fairy tale and all.
Quote
They are just numbers depicting occurrences.
Certain numbers, youre excluding anything you don't like.
Quote
They are based on the courts rulings.
Which courts? Which judges? Provide the links proving this claim. Or I could save you the trouble, you can't.
Quote
If you would like to make your own list, knock yourself out!
I already did Cindy, it's referred to as the "accurate" one.
Quote
But this is what the courts agree to
Again please provide a link proving as such.
Quote
So if a parent is just interested in the safety of the private theraputic sector it would look something like this:
Out of 52,000,000 public school kids 16 were killed in school
Translating to 1 out of every 3,250,000 kids being killed.
Out of those 52,000,000 6 committed suicide while in school.
Translating to 1 out of 8,666,667 kids killing themselves.
Of those same 52,000,000 kids 2140 were killed outside of school.
Translating to 1 out of every 24,300 kids being killed.
Of those same 52,000,000 public school kids 1928 kids committed suicide outside of school.
Translating to roughly 1 out of every 27,000 kids committing suicide.
Out of 30,000 kids in the private theraputic sector so far we have 7 who were killed by staff members.
Translating to 1 out of every 4,286 kids being murdered by staff.
Of those same 30,000 kids 2 committed suicide.
Translating to 1 out of every 15,000 committing suicide.
That's what we have right now Cindy. You can have whatever you like, just understand no one else is buying it and youre dead wrong.
This is the truth Cindy, if you really care about these kids thats what youll tell the parents seeking information. Not your propoganda piece.
Also still waiting on you to work up the courage and answer these:
1. If these kids were not killed by staff members how did they die?
2. If you had a child in your care and he died in the same manner as some of these other kids would you likely be charged with anything?
3. Do you find it odd that of all the deaths that occur in the private theraputic sector charges are seldom brought?
4. If someone was hurt or killed in your factory would you deal with in the same manner these places deal with the deaths that occur in their premises?
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 03, 2007, 05:56:15 PM
Quote
Sorry all of this upsets you so much
The data doesnt upset anyone Cindy, we all know it be your own spin and not based in reality. The problem comes from you claiming to care about kids yet dismissing their deaths and trying to lie to parents about the facts concerning these places. Its sick really.
Quote
All the information you need is in the NCES website
Really? Show us where the NCES website discusses the private theraputic sector.
Quote
If you need clarification of any specific data point you may contact them.
Why would we? We understand the data better than you do. Afterall youre the one who got confused on the seperation of deaths in school and deaths out of school, even after they managed to do so just fine.
Quote
If a parent isn?t interested in TBS?s then they will skip over it. But for those that are it can be a valuable piece of information which will help them to make a decision. I don?t plan to make that decision for them, but I do believe the data should be made available. Why hide it?
Exactly Cindy! Why hide any of it?
Quote
I think most parents will take the NCES as a reliable source.
Idiot, the NCES doesnt discuss the private theraputic sector, why would parents looking for information on it turn to them?
Quote
If you wanted to add to the list, I have said all along that you can.
Which I have, however each time you've claimed they somehow "don't count" when they very much do.
Quote
You just need to meet the parameters and every time you avoid it with anger.
There's no anger, its just me mocking you and making sure you know you cannot discounts these childrens death. The same standards apply both ways Cindy, no way around it. I have met the parameters you laid out in the beginning, I'm simply not allowing you to change the rules because you arent getting your way.
Quote
Don?t blame the judges or NCES and require them to revisit every event just to satisfy you.
Oh Cindy........as I've said before if it wasnt so morbid it would be funny. How can the NCES revisit something they never visited to begin with? How can a judge revisit something he never ruled on? Explain this to me?
Quote
Face it Bob, you have no data that fits the parameters.......
Which parameters Cindy? You've had to change them so many times I've lost track. Not that it matters I've still proven my point each and every time.
Quote
if you think I have an agenda fine,
Again I don't need your okay. Its clear to everyone that you have an agenda.
Quote
get mad at me
No need to, it would be like getting mad at a two month old for wetting his diaper. Youre so programmed you don't know anything else.
Quote
but the data is data
I agree, which is why we're right and youre wrong.
Quote
you just cant change it
Not trying to Cindy. The only one trying to exclude things here is you.
Quote
Ha,Ha,Ha,...it just amazes me you cant see this
Oh I see it Cindy....I just recognize it for what it is, your attempt to discount the deaths of kids. Its sick really.
Quote
This is too funny, everyone can see it but you, it is very simple and basic data:
Everyone can see it youre right, just no one else happens to be buying into it. Sorry Cindy, youre on your own. :D
The thing that's really funny in all of this is youre wanting to rehash something because you've already been owned. I told you last night I have no need to have the kids deaths in the private theraputic sector ruled as homicides. The original topic was safety. Are kids safer in public schools/public sectors or the private theraputic sector?
Let's take a look.
Out of 52,000,000 public school kids 16 were killed in school
Translating to 1 out of every 3,250,000 kids being killed.
Out of those 52,000,000 6 committed suicide while in school.
Translating to 1 out of 8,666,667 kids killing themselves.
Of those same 52,000,000 kids 2140 were killed outside of school.
Translating to 1 out of every 24,300 kids being killed.
Of those same 52,000,000 public school kids 1928 kids committed suicide outside of school.
Translating to roughly 1 out of every 27,000 kids committing suicide.
Out of 30,000 kids in the private theraputic sector so far we have 7 who were killed by staff members.
Translating to 1 out of every 4,286 kids being murdered by staff.
Of those same 30,000 kids 2 committed suicide.
Translating to 1 out of every 15,000 committing suicide.
Would you like to try and dispute these numbers Cindy?
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 03, 2007, 06:49:21 PM
Okay Bob, Looks like you want to be Judge and jury over your own list, this is America you can do what you want. Ha,Ha,?this beautiful.
So we will Have Bob?s list which no one can get put on unless Bob says so.
And then the official list based on NCES and Court Documents.
Works for me ?Ha,Ha,Ha,?I love this guy. I can see it now, if a parent asks how some of these kids died and Bob says: ?Well, the judge said it was an accidental death but I think it was murder and I gave the owner of the school the death penalty, these judges have no balls, I mean come on I had to step in and do something, right? Come on some one agree with me, the guy was a killer, why is everyone just staring at me. They are all killers, the TBS?s are all ticking time bombs?. Hey where are you taking me?.hey come on now?you know I am telling the truth?..put me down I am the judge!!!?
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anonymous on February 03, 2007, 06:53:26 PM
Oh for crying out loud!! Both of you SHUT THE FUCK UP!!!!!!!!
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 03, 2007, 07:03:41 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Oh for crying out loud!! Both of you SHUT THE FUCK UP!!!!!!!!
Ha,Ha,Ha.....Its is nerve wracking isn?t it? You have to admit it is funny....I don?t think I have ever had a conversation with a person like this in my life, not even in high school. Somehow I am going to have to down load this?.I don?t think anyone would believe be.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anonymous on February 03, 2007, 07:07:49 PM
Oh, yes. Please share this with all your friends, assuming you have any. Please.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: teachback on February 03, 2007, 07:43:56 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Oh for crying out loud!! Both of you SHUT THE FUCK UP!!!!!!!!
:rofl: :nworthy:
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 03, 2007, 08:31:15 PM
Quote
Okay Bob, Looks like you want to be Judge and jury over your own list, this is America you can do what you want. Ha,Ha,?this beautiful.
HAHAHAHA I know, it most countries you would have been killed long ago! They rarely tolerate such idiocy.
Quote
So we will Have Bob?s list which no one can get put on unless Bob says so
Cindy between the two of us youre the only one trying to exclude things. I'm all about the openness, or dont you remember your parameters?
Quote
And then the official list based on NCES and Court Documents.
CIndy why are you still going on about this? No one but you is arguing the point. Whether the pts deaths were declared a homicide or not makes no difference, we've already proven public schools and the public sector to be safer using your numbers. Its time you accepted this. Couple this with the fact that youre referencing things you have no way of knowing........Cindy honestly at this point youre just embarrassing yourself.
Quote
Works for me ?Ha,Ha,Ha,?I love this guy. I can see it now, if a parent asks how some of these kids died and Bob says: ?Well, the judge said it was an accidental death but I think it was murder and I gave the owner of the school the death penalty, these judges have no balls, I mean come on I had to step in and do something, right? Come on some one agree with me, the guy was a killer, why is everyone just staring at me. They are all killers, the TBS?s are all ticking time bombs?. Hey where are you taking me?.hey come on now?you know I am telling the truth?..put me down I am the judge!!!?
Yikes. Cindy you're letting me get the better of you, you need to take a step back, keep in mind that you dont give a shit about these kids, there's no reason for you to get so worked up. If someone asked me how these kids died I'd say they were killed by staff members. Youre free to disagree but so far you've been at a loss to provide an alternative, perhaps if you accepted that these people were never brought to trial it would be easier for you to understand. I'm not worried about what a judge had to say on the matter because most of the time a judge is never involved. You yourself advocated this policy, I'm not sure why youre confused on it now.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 03, 2007, 08:56:08 PM
Quote
Ha,Ha,Ha.....Its is nerve wracking isn?t it? You have to admit it is funny....I don?t think I have ever had a conversation with a person like this in my life, not even in high school. Somehow I am going to have to down load this?.I don?t think anyone would believe be.
I can imagine:
Cindy: Mr. Jingles can you believe this guy? I mean here I am trying to prove my point and he keeps bringing up facts!!! What a complete jackass right?
Mr. Jingles: ........
Cindy: Totally, all I'm trying to prove is something I lost sight of long ago, whatever my point was all that matter is THAT I WIN!!! You're with me aren't you Mr. Jingles?
Mr. Jingles: .......
Cindy: I knew you would be, not like this Bob asshole. I understand now why he was in one of these places, I tell him something and HE DOESN'T LISTEN. Not like you Mr. Jingles, you're such a good listener.
Mr. Jingles:.....
Cindy: Oh you're welcome, I'm sorry did you want some more tea?
Mr. Jingles:.......
Cindy: Why yes it is Dargeeli. Anyway as I was saying before this kid Bob, I tell him my opinion and he moans and bitches telling ME I should back up my statements, as if I should ever have to. Then the sonofabitch has the nerve to tell me that I can't use double standards, and then he even goes so far as to tell me when I'm wrong. No one is ever supposed to do that! NOT EVER!!!. I fucking hate it when people do that to me!!!! That's why I love you so much Mr. Jingles, you never tell me I'm wrong, not that I ever am but.....
Cindy's daughter: Dammit Cindy! I'm trying to study here, or did you forget that I'm a 23 years old junior in highschool thanks to you putting me in that shithole place with substandard education? Oh and stop talking to your cat, the only reason he stays there is because you stapled his tail to the chair.
Cindy: YOU SHUT THE FUCK UP YOU LITTLE DRUG ADDICT BITCH!!! I'LL PUT YOU RIGHT BACK IN THERE, IT WAS THE BEST PLACE FOR YOU, NO KID HAS EVER DIED IN ONE OF THOSE PLACES NOT ONE.
Cindy's daughter: What ever you say jackass, that's why I had to go to eight funerals while there, oh and by the way Mom says to tell you the INS is snooping around your factory again, she says she thinks the workers called it themselves because you treat them so poorly and deny them medical care for their many injuries.
Cindy: Oh what the fuck ever, I said I was sorry, what's the point of calling an ambulance or doing paperwork? It's not like he doesnt have another arm anyway. Right Mr. Jingles?
Mr. Jingles: .......
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: TheWho on February 03, 2007, 08:57:37 PM
I appologize to everyone for prolonging this but I cant resist:
I can see the sweat forming on Bobs? brow as he search?s for a data point that fits the parameters. So Bob search?s for a way out, maybe I can convince everyone that TheWho was never talking about TBS's to begin with and changed his mind when the data didnt go his way, all the people here will believe me because TheWho is a programmie. Dam but the Who will prove me a liar again and point everyone to page 5 of this thread, Dam says Bob. TheWho was talking about TBS?s all along, I guess I was confused. Well maybe I can get everyone to believe he changed his parameters and therefore he loses credibility and everyone will see me as this great antiprogrammie guy again and I will be a fornits hero!!! Yeah. Dam his parameters are the same today as they where on page 5. He was talking about TBS?, Homicide and Suicides, between July 1, 1999 thru June 2000 and comparing them to the public sector.
How about if I try to sneak that data point of a little girl who visited a nurses house for a few days, that would pass as a TBS doesn?t it? I mean if they feed her and she slept there (or fell asleep on the porch) then that?s boarding right. She was receiving therapy, right? And if she learned something then it could be a school, so there you go TBS, lets see if the Who will buy it??? Dam he saw right thru me?again?.
Well I guess I will need to try to deflect and get him talking about something else, maybe ask him a lot of questions, but what if he keeps posting his original data like this:
So if a parent is just interested in the safety of TBS?s it would look something like this:
So I am simple comparing a child?s safety at a TBS (24 hours per day) vs not being at a TBS (24 hours per day)
We have this data:
July 1, 1999 thru June 2000 School aged children
Outside a TBS: There where 2,140 Homicides and 1,928 suicides Inside a TBS There where 0 Homicides and 2 suicides
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 03, 2007, 09:07:55 PM
Sigh.
Cindy maybe you should take a break from here for a few days, youre cracking under the pressure of trying to win so badly it's starting to affect you in a negative way. Seriously man I'm worried about you.
If you want to focus soley on your definition of a TBS its your perogative, parents however who have troubled teens are going to want to know all the options availible to them. All of the options availible would otherwise be known as the entire private theraputic sector.When looking and comparing the safety in that sector the numbers stand as follows:
Out of 52,000,000 public school kids 16 were killed in school
Translating to 1 out of every 3,250,000 kids being killed.
Out of those 52,000,000 6 committed suicide while in school.
Translating to 1 out of 8,666,667 kids killing themselves.
Of those same 52,000,000 kids 2140 were killed outside of school.
Translating to 1 out of every 24,300 kids being killed.
Of those same 52,000,000 public school kids 1928 kids committed suicide outside of school.
Translating to roughly 1 out of every 27,000 kids committing suicide.
Out of 30,000 kids in the private theraputic sector so far we have 7 who were killed by staff members.
Translating to 1 out of every 4,286 kids being murdered by staff.
Of those same 30,000 kids 2 committed suicide.
Translating to 1 out of every 15,000 committing suicide.
I'm sorry Cindy, I'm not willing to change the numbers just so you can feel like you won. I really do care about the safety of these kids, and I'm not willing to lie for you.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anonymous on February 03, 2007, 09:09:26 PM
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 03, 2007, 09:16:52 PM
I'd love to move on from this clown but he continues to feel he has the right to not only dictate what deaths he will and will not allow to be discussed but what the rules are for the discussions. I feel it my civic duty to not only give parents the truth to his propoganda but ruin the credibility he's so obsessed with.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anonymous on February 03, 2007, 09:20:56 PM
Quote from: ""RobertBruce""
I'd love to move on from this clown but he continues to feel he has the right to not only dictate what deaths he will and will not allow to be discussed but what the rules are for the discussions. I feel it my civic duty to not only give parents the truth to his propoganda but ruin the credibility he's so obsessed with.
It's not. You're just making an ass out of yourself and allowing him to dstract from anything meaningful. Stop it.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 03, 2007, 09:24:41 PM
I agree, but beating him at his own game means coming down to his level, as far down as that is. I also feel the information is important and that it is shared, the accurate information anyway, not his program approved propoganda.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anonymous on February 03, 2007, 09:25:53 PM
Quote from: ""RobertBruce""
I agree, but beating him at his own game means coming down to his level, as far down as that is.
Ok, let me make this as simple as possible.
IT'S NOT WORKING
Please, with all due respect now. Stop it.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 03, 2007, 09:26:41 PM
He gave up the last time he was owned, he'll give up this time as well. Trust me he's barely hanging onto the edge, its almost over.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anonymous on February 03, 2007, 09:28:43 PM
Quote from: ""RobertBruce""
He gave up the last time he was owned, he'll give up this time as well. Trust me he's barely hanging onto the edge, its almost over.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 03, 2007, 09:32:10 PM
Its almost over I promise.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anne Bonney on February 03, 2007, 09:40:59 PM
Look, why don't you guys start a thread called "death stats" or something where you can piss all over each other without derailing several threads at once.
How 'bout it. I'm asking nicely. Pretty please? :roll: :o :wink:
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 03, 2007, 09:42:30 PM
Works for me.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anne Bonney on February 03, 2007, 09:46:07 PM
:D
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Deborah on February 03, 2007, 09:58:44 PM
Quote from: ""Anne Bonney""
Look, why don't you guys start a thread called "death stats" or something where you can piss all over each other without derailing several threads at once.
How 'bout it. I'm asking nicely. Pretty please? :roll: :o :wink:
Ah naw. Not another thread on this topic. It was beat to death last summer. It's in the perfect thread right now, "Inside the head of a shithead parent". Let it stay here.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Ganja on February 07, 2007, 02:31:18 PM
Quote from: ""Deborah""
Ah naw. Not another thread on this topic. It was beat to death last summer. It's in the perfect thread right now, "Inside the head of a shithead parent". Let it stay here.
:wave: :smokin:
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Oz girl on February 07, 2007, 04:46:05 PM
I think comparing deaths/suicides kind of misses the point. Even if there was not a single fatality, this hardly makes the whole industry any less corrupt or morally bankrupt. It is to me about all of the other human rights that are denied particularly when you consider that kids are incarcerated without trial
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Ganja on February 07, 2007, 04:52:28 PM
Kids don't deserve no goddam rights.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 07, 2007, 04:57:21 PM
According to Cindy if a kid comes out of one these places and says, "Hey I was abused." it in no way suggest that the place is abusive. According to Cindy a childs testimony doesnt count. With that mindset you cannot expect to him to accept that kids are abused and having their rights violated in these places every single day. Remember this is the same guy who when given a list of names and details still insisted no kids had died in the private theraputic sector. He just doesnt get it.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Ganja on February 07, 2007, 05:00:04 PM
Cuz they ain't no better than a bunch of fuckin' niggers.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anonymous on February 07, 2007, 05:09:52 PM
Quote from: ""Oz girl""
I think comparing deaths/suicides kind of misses the point. Even if there was not a single fatality, this hardly makes the whole industry any less corrupt or morally bankrupt. It is to me about all of the other human rights that are denied particularly when you consider that kids are incarcerated without trial
Which is why I thought this whole back and forth with Who was a waste from the start.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 07, 2007, 05:20:53 PM
It was the most tangible proof as to why these places are bad. Once Cindy saw there was no way around the numbers, he gave up.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anonymous on February 07, 2007, 05:25:10 PM
Yes we know Bob. You beat big, bad Who. Just like you *won* with SHH. Feel better now? Cuz that's what's really important here you know. You proving that you're right.
:roll:
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Ganja on February 07, 2007, 05:53:12 PM
If my kids ever try to "assert their rights" I'm gonna drag 'em out to the woodshed & put the fear of GOD into 'em.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Anonymous on February 07, 2007, 07:36:28 PM
Do you bake uncooked pizzas?
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Ganja on February 07, 2007, 07:51:03 PM
I most certainly do, sir.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: RobertBruce on February 07, 2007, 08:10:53 PM
Quote from: ""Guest""
Yes we know Bob. You beat big, bad Who. Just like you *won* with SHH. Feel better now? Cuz that's what's really important here you know. You proving that you're right.
:roll:
Uh oh......is that you Bullfrog? Or maybe its ol Tunafish? There are so many possibilities of idiots Ive put in their place on here over the years. Well which ever one you are, no "winning" is not what matters on here to me, it isnt a contest or a game. It's about being allowed to tell people they are wrong or they are lying without reprisal. When I was incarcertated in HLA being right made no amount of difference, I had no rights, and I was usually punished for pointing out the errors of falaceis of those in charge. Here, those people and those who buy into their line of thinking get frustrated because they can no longer punish me or anyone else for proving them wrong. Or in more specific terms, telling the truth. Being proven right doesnt matter nearly as much to me as proving you and others like you wrong. These places thrive on promoting their bullshit and then trying to scare people into silence. Can't do it on here though, and that just thrills me to no end.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Troll Control on February 08, 2007, 12:56:29 PM
Quote from: ""Oz girl""
I think comparing deaths/suicides kind of misses the point. Even if there was not a single fatality, this hardly makes the whole industry any less corrupt or morally bankrupt. It is to me about all of the other human rights that are denied particularly when you consider that kids are incarcerated without trial
I love this girl...
I think the point of the death/suicide angle is to startle the prospective program parents back into consciousness - to startle them, jog their attention and maybe take this issue more seriously.
There are, however, many PP's who knew all about the deaths before sending their kids and who did it anyway. There's no reaching this kind of PP.
For normal, rational, relatively educated consumers none of this is an issue because they will ask "Can you show me some clinical studies performed by your facility that show improvement for the condition that ails my kid?"
The answer is, of course, "no" (but the program marketer will instead say "Listen, Lady, Junior is going to be DEAD, INSANE or IN JAIL within one month unless you get him here now. We don't need any studies to know that - we've seen the dead kids!") For most, that will end their foray into the TeenHurt business. For the rest, save your breath because they're too stupid or callous to know any better.
Title: Inside the head of a shithead parent
Post by: Oz girl on February 08, 2007, 11:38:06 PM
Quote from: ""Dysfunction Junction""
I love this girl...
I think the point of the death/suicide angle is to startle the prospective program parents back into consciousness - to startle them, jog their attention and maybe take this issue more seriously.
There are, however, many PP's who knew all about the deaths before sending their kids and who did it anyway. There's no reaching this kind of PP.
oh i am touched :oops: I concern i have with going down this line is every programme including as i understand it WWASP in the early days claims that they understand the parents concern and that they are unique in xyz way. So every parent feels that they have sent their kid to one of the "good "ones. it would be good if people could see that incarceration is not a norm regardless of whether the prison has sunshine and lollypops or beatings and gruel. Perhaps the mills idea of a society run by shaming and gossip is the way to go when convincing parents not to send kids to programmes. Mabey it could be couched this way. the us has around 20 million teens If maya Szalavitz is correct a maximum of 100000 kids are in these places So if even 1/4 of US teens are either mentally ill, drug addicted or just manipulative rude and delinquent this is still only 100000 out of 5 million teens this means that there are far more sane parents than not. I guess society could go 1 of 2 ways with the small but significant minority of parents who incarcerate their kids. They can either use reason, or socially shun them. I am not sure which would work better in creating social pressure not to send kids to programmes