Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => World Wide Association of Specialty Programs and Schools (WWASPS) => Topic started by: Anonymous on December 31, 2006, 05:03:29 PM
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Sorry for advertising Fornits mods and admins, just wanted to refresh everyone's memory about http://www.antiwwasp.com (http://www.antiwwasp.com) - The site has grown a lot in the past year and there is plenty of new forum discussion taking place. Everyone is encouraged to register for free and contribute your opinions. I know that some of the most seasoned internet activists come to these forums, I'm asking for all of your help in creating some new conversation (full of substance) for my forums. I see that there is a lot of love here and everyone wants to help each other as well.
We have ex-students showing up at the site asking for help and I do my best, but unfortunately as of late I don't think I can do it all myself. I designed the site from the ground up and try my best to administrate the forums, the website, and create fresh content, but I don't have the knowledge or experience to coach parents asking for help.
Please, anyone, if you could become a part of both this forum and my own, it would be greatly appreciated. I'm always open to fresh ideas and new suggestions, so if you have any please email me at kev@antiwwapsp.com - kev (antiwwasp.com)
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Awesome site, keep up the good fight man.
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It looks good :exclaim: :exclaim: :exclaim:
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Yeah, looking good Kev. But why the link to an org like CAICA? Frankly, that really surprises me.
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Holy Shit Kevin! You even have ads for PURE and programs like Ironwood on your website? WTF is that about? (These ads may not appear as shown to others if they are random, but they showed up when I clicked on this page). Honestly, isn't there some other way you can raise funds to operate your site? This really struck a nerve with me, but maybe others are not so sensitive. In every other way, your site rocks.
http://www.antiwwasp.com/jim.html (http://www.antiwwasp.com/jim.html)
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Kev, please tell me these are google ads and NOT paid advertising? Under the ad for "What Every Parent Needs To Know' (which is a direct link to the program referral service PURE) it says click here to advertise on this site. PURE is on ISAC's program and referral watch list, in case you were not aware and maybe wanted to rethink this concept.
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http://http://troubled--teen.net/?gclid=CJ_Ij_TzwIkCFSNQYwodWzwGOg
Ok, I have changed my mind. One of the ads took me to a page with links to WWASPS Teen Help marketing websites. (see above)
I can not in good conscious support this kind of revenue-building activiity but wish you all the best, nevertheless.
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Yes unfortunately some see my inability to filter out these ads as hypocritical. I try to keep up with and filter wwasp's deceptive adwords labeling techniques and massive swarm of teen help websites from being viewed in my adsense ads as frequently as possibly. I simply have neither the time nor patience to do this every single day but I would like to make this point. If you are a parent or whatever reading an ad on my page, you are reading the message that is on that page before you ever see an ad. If I've clearly outlined my position with these programs (the entire site is dedicated to one point), and a parent understands what I'm saying and still chooses to view the program through the link anyway, should i not profit from it and use that money to spread the message regardless of their intention? I guess I'm conflicted. I basically see that if they wanted information about that particular school to see what it's about, they are going to get there one way or another, does it really matter where they come or who sends them there? And is it not better for them to view my site first, beforehand, having an objective opinion of these schools before the teen help website they are viewing starts filling their mind with garbage? I'm sorry if these ads are a problem for anyone but they are going to help me to buy new domains in the "teen" genre that will point to the main website to help educate people as well as try to disrupt the monopoly that teen help has created within almost every major search engine. These ads will also allow me to print professional flyers that many people dedicated to spreading this message are willing to hand out. I hope you can understand that the money is at the very least going to a good cause, even if you don't agree with them.
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Personally, I think it does matter but hey, if you wanna believe the "ends justify the means" that's your "business".
Other advocacy websites have found ways to support their needs without going down this road. Why not get a sponsor who doesn't profit from locking kids up? Or sell books related to the issues and get a small percentage of the sales from Amazon (like Fornits & ISAC do)? I'm sure someone as creative and talented as you appear to be can think of any number of ways to get around this issue without promoting the very PROGRAMS that killed the 3 WWASPS kids on your website.
Just my 2 cents. It's a good thing you are trying to do but the promotional ads and links to referral services like PURE and TEEN HELP, LIFELINES, seriously DILUTES the message you are trying to get across.
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5troubledteen.org
troubled--teen.net
These two urls were relatively new and were added to the filter today, as I mentioned before I do try to keep any links that point to wwasp affiliated schools off my website, and thank you for the compliment by the way.
I would love to offer a real solution to parents, but unfortunately unless someone can tell me otherwise, I don't have many alternatives for people asking for help. I don't know much about boarding schools outside of WWASP as I'm not an educational consultant of any kind, just someone trying to have an opinion. If anyone here with experience would like to give me something else to recommend to the parents asking for my help, please let me know kev@antiwwasp.com. Or if you could help me which url's you are being led to I would really appreciate the heads up so that the ads can be removed.
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I would be willing to also I think his site is doing a lot more good than harm, that's FORE SURE :exclaim: :exclaim: :exclaim:
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I would be willing to also I think his site is doing a lot more good than harm, that's FORE SURE :exclaim: :exclaim: :exclaim:
Ditto.
I wish more of these web savvy kids would do what Kev has done. Its a shame people want to kick them in the teeth, instead of patting them on the back.
The google adds are one way to keep these web sites up and running. Counting on public support can be very disappointing. And its worth noting that keeping a site and forum up and running can be an expense people can't afford with out some assistance.
So Kev - Kudos to you, and may 2007 see you blessed.
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Thank you all for wanting to help, I will soon be "stealing" if you will the top search engine positions for each individual WWASP school. For example, http://springcreeklodge.antiwwasp.com (http://springcreeklodge.antiwwasp.com) contains much more search engine friendly "material" than wwasp's own Spring Creek Lodge pages (blueslide.com and springcreeklodge.com).
Meaning that with a little time, I should have each of my descriptions put in front of parents, before the schools themselves even get a chance to make a point. They're about to get a huge wakeup call the next time the spiders (googlebot) revisit my pages. I've already achieved 4th place rankings in EVERY major search engine for the search term WWASP. Pretty much any search phrase with "WWASP" in it will let you find my pages.
With the donation amounts you are proposing, I may even be able to launch an adwords campaign to help take back the web from Teen-Help. Your contributions mean a lot. And as someone mentioned before, I do have to maintain a host with high bandwidth limits for the forums, which is not cheap, thank you for understanding that.
And for anyone who ever says I never tried anything else, Amazon.com simply coulndn't pay the bills, selling a 20.00 book once a month made me a rediculous $1.12 or something similar.
Thanks for everyone who has been understanding, and willing to overlook a few ads for the overall value of the information contained on my website. Believe me, if you ever want to put your money to good use, I have a good place to invest it and I am extremely dedicated to making a difference. Donation options are available through the main website. http://www.antiwwasp.com (http://www.antiwwasp.com) - If you have any questions I answer every single email sent to me (except spam) so if you'd like more information or just want to chat, I'm always open to it.
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I'd like to help, let me know what I can do.
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Kev,
Here's the DEAL:
Your website is called ANTI-WWASP.
But if you are selling ADS to CAICA and PURE:
Then you might as well be ADVERTISING:
SEND YOUR KIDS TO PROGRAMS that may be just as bad as WWASP, OK?
Just because a Program ain't WWASP does not mean it ain't abusive---got it?
You are only kidding yourself, if you even think you aren't helping to sell programs.
CAICA and PURE are laughing their butts off IMO.
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Really TSW?
IZZY supports Sue Scheff, PURE.
And PURE refers children to known abusive PROGRAMS.
Izzy listed Sue Scheff as her "Advocate of the Month."
Izzy claims to be an Advocate, and does not even list Whitmore, which has closed down on her list. Whitmore has an owner who accepted a Plea Bargain for child abuse.
Izzy lists other closed abusive Programs on her website.
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I am still trying to figure out how to get a copy of the WWASP movie hosted on a youtube style browers on a foriegn domain.
YouTube uses Flash, TSW; you'd basically have to make the entire thing into a Flash movie in order to do it the way they do it. Video streaming in general is difficult and expensive.
IMO it's easier and more efficient simply to have the whole thing as a download. Put it on everybody's hard drive and let samizdat distribution and file-sharing networks do their thing.
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I would love to see the 90 minute version as well.. i only have the 53 minute copy. i love the ending where the kid paints the rocks with the statement that was written at the hobbit.. let freedom reign.. out in the open desert.. it was symbolic and very powerful. i really thought this movie was well done and cant wait to see the lengthier version. i emailed the sales company and they said email the producer so im waiting for a response...
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Well, I am pleased to announce to all references to Sue Scheff and CAICA no longer have a place on my website.
TSW - thank you for your support, and yes the massive archives of wwasp related materials at CAICA were my only motivation for her inclusion on my site. I'll get you a PM about those donation details if you're still interested in contributing, it's very much appreciated.
I'll admit that before I did my homework on all these other fake "ed-cons" I just wanted to get as many inbound links to my site (for search engine purposes) as I possibly could to increase my chances of my message being seen. I guess back then it didn't matter to me where the hits came from, but at this time, antiWWASP is starting to become much larger than I ever thought it would become, and no longer needs the extra traffic that comes in from CAICA's reciprocal links. The survivor's list (new kids wanting to pledge themselves against these programs) is increasing on average by about 5-7 kids a week, and I no longer need the support from these two groups. It's getting pretty exciting.
Due to the response received here which asked questions of my personal integrity, I re-analyed the situation and decided that your criticism was useful in determining what I ultimately want the message of my site as a whole to reflect.
Sue scheff, Pure, as well as CAICA will no longer be a part of antiWWASP.com. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I am ALWAYS open to the kinds of questions and criticism I received earlier, and will continue to field requests to make the site more appropriate and focused on what I believe we're all trying to achieve.
Please be patient as there are about 30 individual html files to scan with various links inserted in each, the main visible links have already been removed and the adsense ads filtered (could take 24 hours to keep them out of ad-rotation).
I hope that now, everyone who has been following this thread can put all their greivances aside and tell people nothing but good things about antiwwasp.com in the future.
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BTW - To everyone who clicked through my adsense links searching out the evil which you seek to destroy and keep off my website, you also made me a pretty penny in the process, so thank you for your unknown contributions. :wink:
It's kind of like way back when all those parents bought Eminem's cd just to pile them up and smash them and burn them and such because they hated his message, he was loving it, and so was his record company.
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Please be patient as there are about 30 individual html files to scan with various links inserted in each
grep www.caica.org (http://www.caica.org) *
sed s/www.caica.org//g
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Kev, can you send me a private message?
Need your address, too.
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Joyce - Thank you for your support, you have a PM waiting.
MGDP - I don't undertand what your talking about, could you clarify what you meant in that last post?
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Don't tempt me. If I didn't have that part of my brain worn out from that massive MSTing on the HLA board, I really would make this post in Engrish.
Grep is a UNIX command that finds all instances of a phrase in various files. Using it like I put it will find all instances of www.caica.org (http://www.caica.org) in the directory.
Sed is another UNIX command used to replace something with another thing. Using it like I put it will replace all instances of www.caica.org (http://www.caica.org) with nothing. (You wouldn't actually do it that way, it was just an example. In reality you'd probably just use grep and manually edit the different, particular URLs out).
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Or could i could just keep it simple and use dreamweaver's batch edit commands? I know nothing of even simple programming languages outside of css and html. not even java.... im a pathetic freelancer that needs to go back to school (very soon too), my design talent is up there, but my technical skill leaves something to be desired...
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I've never touched Dreamweaver and don't think I ever will.
Windows Grep (google for it) will do the job in a user-friendly way.
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Is your site down? It wont connect.
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Its up for me at 1:54PM Pacific Time right now on Jan 6th. And has been all morning, I did have someone from my forums having trouble logging on yesterday so it could have been a server problem or maintenance of some kind.
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I guess I'm confused.
What's up with the ad prominently displayed on the homepage of anti-wwasps for a website called teenshelp.us?
Excerpt from Teenshelp.us
TeensHelp.us is a tool to help parents like you find legitimate treatment solutions for your adolescent. We have been reviewing various schools since 2002 and have extensive knowledge of what you are going through as a parent, as well as what may be right for your son/daughter. The schools listed on this website come recommended by former parents and teens before being displayed. Please browse through our helpful Teen Help resources to guide your family out of dysfunction. We can help you make an informed decision regarding placement of your teen. Once you've registered you'll be able to get information about schools in your area.
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So who is "WE"?
http://http://www.teenshelp.us/
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Nice touch, having people register in order to get "referrals" in their area.
Again, I ask, who is "we"? These nameless people who have been helping provide resources for parents since 2002?
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FYI: teenshelp.us is opposed to wwasps programs and links back to anti-wwasps (Kev's website).
Q: What programs does teenshelp.us "recommend" to parents?
All I see are a bunch of ads for programs and schools that one could argue are not necessarily any more safe or effective than the WWASPS brand of programs.
What happens when a parent registers and asks for "help"?
This is really some muddy waters to be venturing into, IMO.
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Thought Kev at ANTI-WWASP had agreed to remove all these references to Sue Scheff PURE.
What gives, Kev?
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Wow, this is a disaster, you people are ferocious, but obviously only with the best intentions. TeensHelp.us is owned by myself and my attempt to provide parents asking me for help a place to turn. The google ads were basically serving as placeholders for content yet to be developed. The website will also serve as a starting point for loosening the teen help network's monopoly in every major search engine. This one is going to be a contender, I think I can optimize it to the point of getting it to at least a 1-20 position for terms like "teen help" "teen boarding schools". The link back to antiwwasp is to showcase that there are schools out there that are putting teens in dangerous and unhealthy living environments, as well as subjecting them to abuse.
I have no answers for the hoards of people asking for help here. What do I tell them? Can anyone actually specify something realistic for what the parents of these teens should do when they're at their wits end? I've held off for a year and a half of people asking me "what do i do if I can't use wwasp?". I'm tired of not being able to answer. I'm also tired of thinking that the same people that I'm trying to inform about WWASP, are left with no other options and are forced to put their teen in a WWASP affiliated school. It would be foolish to think that every facility in existence is abusing children or not providing adequate care.
I know I'm still going to get criticism for referring parents to licensed, regulated, and helpful facilities, but I'm confident that there are still staff at various schools around the country trying to make a difference in young peoples lives. I will be doing vigorous screening of every school that applies to be a part of the list. I'm trying to find licensed places that don't employ any of the tactics wwasp uses. I'm setting up a list of requirements for schools to be added to this new service with things such as, Background Checks, Licensing Requirements for the State the school's located in and other things I believe every school should require. I'll do my absolute best to research every school held within this new directory to make sure no school is a part of ISACCORP.org's watchlist gets included in the list. I will also use my visitors opinions and knowledge of the industry to best suit the teens who will be sent to the schools I'm "recommending".
That site isn't exactly finished, it was more of a placeholder until I can get the real thing up. I know there will be more comments here about being a hypocrit and you're all entitled to your opinion. Or you're being nieve about what's really going on here. Regardless of what I'm doing with antiwwasp.com, it does no good if there's no alternative. I hope you can see what I'm trying to do.
I want to establish that I'm not going to defend myself here at fornits at every turn. I've stated my opinion on the subject and I'm basically at the end of the line on this one unless someone can offer a solution. As for the references earlier to the year 2002, that only refers to the life experience I've incurred with this troublesome industry since going through several rehab centers, a wilderness program (that was actually helpful), and then onto 12 months at spring creek which was one of the worst things I've ever gone through.
I'm going to try to help some of the smaller schools more exposure, ones that are doing good by giving students valid educations, job skills, and helping them turn their lives around. Not locking someone up and making them pay for extras such as therapy.
As for sue scheff, if you can tell me which page still has a link to her site i'd be glad to remove it. I was just today informed that teenhelpindustry.info is her's it will be removed shortly. I had no idea because it had the "referral-free zone" button on the page with tons of info on WWASP. Should have done my homework.
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I'm confident that there are still staff at various schools around the country trying to make a difference in young peoples lives.
Your confidence is misplaced. Either that or you've decided to get into the ed-con business.. but only for the "Good" places! In so doing, you've further perpetrated the illusion that sending your kids off to sadistic assholes is a solution.
Furthermore, teenshelp.us only lists one place openly, and leaves the rest as "Hidden"... I wonder why that is? If you can't be open and forthright with just where you want parents to send their kids, then we have no reason to believe you're open and forthright with anything else.
You are the next Sue Scheff.
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Why can't ANTI-WASP be just that?
A web-site that warns parents/readers agaisnt the WWASP programs and a website where former students can come to tell their "stories."
Kev,
WHAT ARE YOUR QUALIFICATIONS---for recommending any programs....or for offering advise to any parents about what to do with their "troubled teens?"
Are you a psychologist?
Are you at least a college educated teacher?
Have you ever worked with children---like maybe in a Day Care Center?
Are you AT LEAST one of these Educational Consultatants?
OH, so hou are going to "vigourously screen these programs you recommend?"
Go read the damn WWASP vs PURE transcripts---those are Sue Scheff's exact words---exactly what she CLAIMS she does/did before she enrolled our children in abusive programs!
What will be your referral fee?
You do have Eckerd on your little website.
Guess what? This abusive wilderness program is also on the "watchlist" over on ISAC.
And yes: we at FORNITS do have the right to be upset!
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The referral business is unregulated just as the teen help industry is. If Keven really wants to help, he would refer parents to proven methods of intervention and treatment not programs ranging from mom and pop "group homes" and ranches to corporate gulags.
What can I say? His motivation is to make money to turn the tables? There are better ways to do that and if he doesn't know that, then he hasn't really thought about it enough, IMO.
Kevin isn't stupid. He's very intelligent and super creative. This is a misguided attempt that will take him down a slipperly slope and in the process expose children and parents to exploitation in the name of "good" therapy.
Oh well ... at least he answered the question of who "we" is.
:roll:
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Which wilderness therapy program did you go to?
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Kevin Writes
As for sue scheff, if you can tell me which page still has a link to her site i'd be glad to remove it. I was just today informed that teenhelpindustry.info is her's it will be removed shortly. I had no idea because it had the "referral-free zone" button on the page with tons of info on WWASP. Should have done my homework.
http://http://teenhelpindustry.info
This sure doesn't look to me like it's Sue Scheff's website, is it possible you have it confused with something else?
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It seems like the confusion is the use of the word "teen" in all these websites:
WWASP uses: TEEN Help, Inc
PURE uses: HelpyourTEEN.com
Kev uses: TEENhelp.us
The referral free zone uses: TEENhelpindustry.info
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Yo Kev!
You can put teenhelpindustry.info back up on your website because it's not related to Sue Scheff or PURE whatsoever.
False alarm!
http://http://www.teenhelpindustry.info
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But Yo Kev,
You gonna keep referring kids to abusive programs, and advertising abusive programs on your Anti-Wwasp website.
You ain't qualified to be referring kids any where!
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Kevin Writes
As for sue scheff, if you can tell me which page still has a link to her site i'd be glad to remove it. I was just today informed that teenhelpindustry.info is her's it will be removed shortly. I had no idea because it had the "referral-free zone" button on the page with tons of info on WWASP. Should have done my homework.
http://http://teenhelpindustry.info
This sure doesn't look to me like it's Sue Scheff's website, is it possible you have it confused with something else?
Ahhhemmm -
Kev,
teenhelpindustry.info, is not affiliated with Sue Scheff. Who said it was? You do need to do better homework, me lad. I ditto the concerns about this: http://www.teenshelp.us/index.html (http://www.teenshelp.us/index.html) What are you doing?
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Again, this may be the last time I choose to defend myself here against rediculous accusations and my inability to update my site often enough for your strategic everyday visits to my websites.
As for the schools that were specified, I always, I mean that too, I always, respect the validity of of ISACCORP as well as any other credible organization fighting for teen rights. I visit fornits as another source for this information but as of late it seems like a giant argument going nowhere.
I seek to form a new network. One that doesn't have this stigma attached to it.
As for making sure I screen these schools and for the references to having only one school on the site so far. I just started this within the last 48 hours if that so you can't expect me to have done enough research to find qualified schools yet. Magnolia Christian Center has a package in the mail. They are sending me their accreditation papers, full FBI background check to be checked against staff records, plus copies of their licensing information. I have been in contact with administrators of the school
Oh look at me, I magically transformed into Sue Scheff now. Give me a break, I must say I actually laughed out loud at whoever wrote this one. I specifically state my intentions on teenshelp.us, I inform parents that my only experience in the referal business is that of a student with a lot of life experience. I'm being honest here. I don't know what you all want from me (besides not creating this network). I have done everything in my power to create a place for WWASP survivors, then I try to create a safe and responsible group of schools and get knocked down for it. I would have you all take a serious look at your own morals and values, put yourself in my shoes, and then ask yourself what to do. Better yet, put yourself in the shoes of the people asking for help.
All schools mentioned in previous posts will be filtered from adsense ads shortly.
What qualifies someone to recommend a school? I don't state that I have any formal education (cough cough scheff). I am not representing these schools. I sincerely feel that this is being blown out of proportion and all these accusations are undeserved.
I'm also getting fed up with anonymous people attacking my credibility. Who are you? Show your face if you have any courage at all. If you were really fighting for anyone's rights you'd show your faces like I have and make your own resources available to parents instead of telling me what to do with my own.
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I received an email from a concerned person telling me that teenhelpindustry.info belonged to sue scheff. Now maybe you'll understand just how hard it is to maintain valid information on all of this. I have people blowing whistle's at me and now you're telling me that this isn't her website.
This is getting rediculous.
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I think you are doing a good thing. I dont think a lot of people realize that parents will send their kid to WWASPS if you dont have some other direction to point them in. Its obvious you put a lot of work into your website and I cant think of anyone else who has done so much work to work against WWASPS internet marketing machine. Keep it up man, you speak for a lot of anti-wwasps peoples!
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Thank you for your support Survivor. I think that people are just so afraid of more kids getting hurt or abused.
I found a great way to allow everyone thats passionate about keeping bad programs off my websites. I'm going to share the list of sites that are filtered, as well as update everyone every week in this single thread about new additions to the filter list. If you can all help my build the list, you can help me keep these sites off of antiwwasp.com and teenshelp.us. Thanks in advance for anyone who pledges a few minutes to actually help solve the problem, instead of randomly offering anonymous opinions with no validity.
Here is the list of websites being filtered as of Jan 10th at 5:43 PST.
It is always incomplete, so please don't whine about new sites that are bound to pop up everyday. You now have the power to make a difference if you choose to. I'm sure there are more than this but many schools don't use adwords and won't be found on my site in the first place.
5troubledteen.org
a-troubledteen.com
alltheservices.com
articleplanet.com
atroubledteen.com
atroubledteen.net
boardingschoollistings.com
bootcamp4teens.com
cfreer.com
cns.parentshelpingteens.com
defiant-teens.com
eckerd.org
eckerdyouthalternatives.org
educationcentral.com
guidingyouth.com
helpforteen.us
helpforteens.com
helpmyteen.com
helpyourteens.com
iboardingschool.info
liahonaprogram.com
military-school.info
parentteenguide.com
radconsultancy.com
redcliffascent.com
teen5000.net
teenhelp.us
teenlifelines.com
toseeka.com
troubled--teen.net
troubled-teen-advisor.com
troubled-teenagers.org
truelocal.com
So, if you see any website that isn't listed here that can be found on any publicly available watchlists please post it here or email it to me.This should be quite the project for all you "internet-police" out there. You may also list websites where you find that their sole purpose is to refer to WWASP programs.
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Kev, I still don't think it's a good idea to venture into the troubled teen referral business as a way to help kids because it's a booby trap industry but I do agree that those of us who are "passionate" about this issue should help filter the list of potential abusive referral companies and programs who could appear on your site:
Please add this one:
http://parentandteenresources.com/ (http://parentandteenresources.com/)
Run by Marie Peart - former WWASPS employee and now works with PURE (Sue Scheff) as an educational consultant. Doesn't list the programs they refer to but what else is new.
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" I won't let that happen. It's not within me to allow something like that."
Do you not realize what you are saying here?
Are you God?
Are you going to be there, in these unregulated programs you support, so that you can make sure and not " allow something like that" something like "abuse" to happen?
You are so young and so naive to make such a statement.
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Are you God?
That would be awesome! 8-)
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To whomever wrote - "Are you God?". Clearly you are out to discredit me, out there somewhere with nothing better to do with your time. Obviously I have no control over what happens in every school out there and from my viewpoint you are basically wasting everyone's time with unhelpful sarcasm comparing me to some people's lord and savior. Who are you helping? Anyone? What have you done? Where is your merit for speaking against me? Who are you? Nameless people love to talk the talk, where's the walk? You must simply not understand what is right in front of your eyes. This is happening regardless of who's telling the parents where to go. No matter what. This industry generates million or billions of dollars a year, would you rather have the kids sent to the schools from someone who is trying to advocate for teen rights and play a watchdog role (myself), or have them sent by Sue Scheff (who as far as I'm aware of maintains no regulatory control or boundaries or acts like they don't exist), one of the two?
Consider this, if a school was ever found to be abusing or hurting, under nourishing, or providing inadequate care of any kind in my network, they would be removed from the page little or no investigation into the matter. The mere mention of one of the above would be enough for me to remove a school from the page and most likely provide objective information about the school as I've done with WWASP. The same would happen if they were to pop up on any kind of childs right advocacy projects out here on the web. What you decided to twist into "me playing god" is my effort to try something new and help someone.
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Hey Kevin, I'm still wondering what wilderness program you went to and why you feel it helped you?
Was it one of WWASPS or some other company?
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Hey Kevin-some of these people are just whack! They live in a make believe world where all parents must and shall take care of their children! Reality check folks, not all parents were cut out to be parents. Parents will get rid of their children if they don't want to deal with their "rebelious teenagers". Why can you not get that through your thick skulls?????? It's not rocket science!?!! There is not a lot we can do for parents who don't want to do their job. The sooner you accept that, the better off we'll be. I don't want kids to be shipped off from their families just because their Mom and Dad don't want to take time out of their busy lives to pay attention to them, and try to understand what their going through, but that's not up to me?!! I realize that these are pretty much good kids, for the most part, who are going through typical teenage growing pains. Most of us here would never pawn off our parental responsibilities on someone else, but that does not mean others wouldn't. There will always be weak parents out there who will take the easy way out. For these morons we do need to give them alternatives, places that they can dump their children off to, where they hopefully don't suffer abuse, or maybe have a lesser chance of encountering that? Get off Fantasy Island folks, and check yourself into Reality World. There will never be a day, nor should there be, when it will be against the law to send your kids away. Some of these kids that are being sent away, believe it or not, it's a step up from the world they currently living in. All we can do is make sure that the places that they are sent to, are not brainwashing abusive hellholes. Some of you, who I consider to be quite liberal are in support of pregnant women being able to dump their children off at Emergency Room Hospitals with no questions being asked. Why is this any different?
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I want to establish that I'm not going to defend myself here at fornits at every turn. I've stated my opinion on the subject and I'm basically at the end of the line on this one unless someone can offer a solution. As for the references earlier to the year 2002, that only refers to the life experience I've incurred with this troublesome industry since going through several rehab centers, a wilderness program (that was actually helpful), and then onto 12 months at spring creek which was one of the worst things I've ever gone through.
I'm going to try to help some of the smaller schools more exposure, ones that are doing good by giving students valid educations, job skills, and helping them turn their lives around. Not locking someone up and making them pay for extras such as therapy.
As for sue scheff, if you can tell me which page still has a link to her site i'd be glad to remove it. I was just today informed that teenhelpindustry.info is her's it will be removed shortly. I had no idea because it had the "referral-free zone" button on the page with tons of info on WWASP. Should have done my homework.
Well, son, how do you establish that you're not going to defend yourself here on Fornits by defending yourself here on Fornits?
Seriously, though, Sue Scheff is just the tip if the iceburg. She's a cartoon character; so blatant about it that everybody sees through her pretty quick. But I think you'll find it's pretty much the same wherever you go. The alternative to the troubled parent industry is actually raising one's own kids, right from scratch. If you do your homework on the smaller schools you'll find that, down to the last one, either they can't deliver on their promise to turn around recalcitrant youths or they do so using abusive tactics. Why? Cause there is no way to change someone against their will except to break their will and there's simply no kinder, gentler way to do that; only more subtle and insidious ways.
Good luck w/ that.
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Hey Kevin-some of these people are just whack! They live in a make believe world where all parents must and shall take care of their children!
.... and on and on and on....
Yeah, that's it, we're whack! We don't know what we're talking about. It's not like we're program vets, parents, grandparents, former staff, parents who made the mistake of trying to contract out parenting.... oh wait, yes we are!
But the thing that strikes me most is your method of debate. First tough question and you both (you and Kev) fall right to attributing malicious intent and disparaging the opponent.
This industry generates million or billions of dollars a year, would you rather have the kids sent to the schools from someone who is trying to advocate for teen rights and play a watchdog role (myself), or have them sent by Sue Scheff (who as far as I'm aware of maintains no regulatory control or boundaries or acts like they don't exist), one of the two?
Kev, this is exactly what Sue Scheff thinks she's doing. And it's just what the Seed parents who formed Straight, Inc. thought they were doing. And it's exactly what Art Barker said when he set up the Seed on Synanon methods. And it's exactly what the Sudweeks said about Whitmore. I believe your intentions are good, but you're making a big mistake.
This really bums me out, too, cause I thought we were going to have a meaningful debate on the google ads.
To those of you who spoke of Fornits finding other, better ways to make money, you're off a little bit. I make my money on hosting commercial sites and, often enough, hawking used junk on ebay or painting rental properties for hourly pay, etc. Fact is, I've been thinking about restoring google ads to this site. I think Kev's right about context. When I did this before, it took about two months before the WWASP and some other abusive outfits added fornits to their filters so that their ads wouldn't turn up here. I think they realize that they're not likely to get any pay-off from ads that turn up in this context. But even so, for the entire 3 months that I had those ads up, I only got $103. Now with my budget, that would be a big help! But it's not asif I can live on it.
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These programs are advertised on Anti-WWASP:
Sorenson's Ranch
Ironwood
Eckerd
No way these can be explained away as some "kinder, gentler programs" just because they are not WWASP programs.
Even Sue Scheff at PURE can't sell this kind of shit any longer!
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CCM GIRL, these babies that get "dumped off at hospitals by pregnant women with no questions asked" usually get adopted by families that will love and raise them.
THAT's a huge difference!
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I think it's this kind of political stale mate argument that turns off program graduates from ever becoming involved in advocacy. It's pretty obvious that there are people out there who just want to use your story to further their cause. The truth is the best thing to do is just forget about all this shit and move on with your life. I feel bad for the kids who participated in that TB documentary, now they have to deal with those advocates.. fucking shame. Worked over once, and then again in a whole new way. CCM is right a lot of kids want to get out of their home and they would of been happy if only they hadn't ended up in a psycho boot camp. Home life can suck just as much and/or more than the abuseoccurs in programs. Some homes are fucked up programs in of themselves. So you can't just tell everyone keep your kids at home, because they aren't going to do that anyways. Child abuse is wrong no matter where it occurs but don't be so naive to think it's only occuring in the private troubled teen industry. It effects all kids in all parts of society in a lot more families than people would like to think it does. Ive seen some regulars here post that they think its a good idea to send a kid to Europe for a semester, or even vacation, so I don't understand that people don't think a good type of residential facility can exist. We should be thankful this forum isnt a lot busier than it already is right? Now go smoke some pot and forget everything I just said.
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5troubledteen.org
a-troubledteen.com
alltheservices.com
articleplanet.com
atroubledteen.com
atroubledteen.net
boardingschoollistings.com
bootcamp4teens.com
cfreer.com
cns.parentshelpingteens.com
defiant-teens.com
eckerd.org
eckerdyouthalternatives.org
educationcentral.com
guidingyouth.com
helpforteen.us
helpforteens.com
helpmyteen.com
helpyourteens.com
iboardingschool.info
ironwood.org
ironwoodmaine.com
liahonaprogram.com
military-school.info
parentteenguide.com
radconsultancy.com
redcliffascent.com
sorensonsranch.com
teen5000.net
teenhelp.us
teenlifelines.com
toseeka.com
troubled--teen.net
troubled-teen-advisor.com
troubled-teenagers.org
troubledteensofamerica.org
truelocal.com
New filter list updated jan 11th 5:28 PST
For future additions to the list could anyone helping please give me the website address instead of school's names, it makes it easier for me when I have to add a couple of these a day one by one. Thanks for your help, you are really doing a great service by helping point out the abusive programs, I'll have to admit my focus has pretty much been WWASP the entire time I've been doing this.
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Ive seen some regulars here post that they think its a good idea to send a kid to Europe for a semester, or even vacation, so I don't understand that people don't think a good type of residential facility can exist. We should be thankful this forum isnt a lot busier than it already is right?
A good type of facility isn't going to come up on a keyword match for terms like "troubled teen" and "WWASP". That's what we were discussing, remember? The google ads on Kev's site. Then, somehow, we switched to Kev actually trying to act as a referal agent. But these are two seperate issues, in my view.
First, Kev, take about a hundred steps back from the Program culture in which you've been immersed for however long. In Program-Land, it's perfectly fittin and proper for just anybody w/ an asshole and an opinion to hang out a shingle and start selling advice to parents making crucial decisions wrt raising their kids. In the more commonly accepted reality, you need at least a LCSW to even pretend to be legit. And you can ask DJ and TSW about how that worked out for them one day.
This is simply not a legitimate thing for you to do. All good intentions aside, it's just plain wrong. Personally, I wouldn't even take the advice of a licensed, bona fied, edumacated professional on it's own merit. I'd check their homeword, get 2nd and 3rd opinions and still it would have to stand to reason before I'd bite.
But that's just me.
Anyway, back to the google ads. This is worth discussing because so many sites now use it or similar keyword matching ad services. So then when Maia publishes on Huffington Post, those same ads turn up there. And the more success we have at getting ink in the real world or in cyberia, the more we'll think about this problem; to click or not to click.
Regardless of whether you go ahead and learn the hard way about the troubled parent referral business, I'd really like to have this other discussion about advertising.
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Didn't you have some variety of rubber stamp from the regulators before you went to work at TS?
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Ok, Gook. My apologies then for calling you a LCSW. I beg your forgiveness and pray for mercy.
:nworthy:
I think it's this kind of political stale mate argument that turns off program graduates from ever becoming involved in advocacy.
...
I feel bad for the kids who participated in that TB documentary, now they have to deal with those advocates.. fucking shame. Worked over once, and then again in a whole new way.
...
Child abuse is wrong no matter where it occurs but don't be so naive to think it's only occuring in the private troubled teen industry. It effects all kids in all parts of society in a lot more families than people would like to think it does.
True dat! 20 odd years ago, I knew I was scrambled in the head; in no shape to go toe to toe w/ these mindfuckers; no inkling of any desire to ever see any of their faces again (cept maybe some of the more impressive boys... one day, after I lost the weight, fluorescent tan and prolee shuffle) I'm glad I made that call. I would have been dog food by the end of it if I had tried to engage back then.
Child abuse is wrong no matter where it occurs. But, due to the sheer religious fanaticism and political and economic sway of many of the principle drivers in this industry, this is a special case. These sadistic lunatics are making laws and other public policy. People take their advice and hand them great big sacks of what used to be our money to impliment their ideas because they believe they're the experts, they know what they're doing. Well now the first generation of Synanon kids are entering [eghgheghm] middle age. And there are a damned lot of us, it turns out. That wasn't the case when we were first tossed out in the early, rudamentary 'exit plan' days (no cash, no ticket, just change the locks, that's it). No one fucking believed us, even if they tried to understand. So we quit talking about it. Now, how do you network with people based on shared interest if nobody ever talks about that interest?
I'm interested to see if, how much and by what means my fellow former drug war POWs are willing to respond to this travesty once we have a fairly good idea of the scope of it and some idea who's on our side.
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What qualifies a LSCW to be a therapist anyway?
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Anti-wwasp website.
Click on Kev August's referral site, teenhelp.us, and one of the ads on his resource link is TEEN HELP WWASP recruiter, Kathie Deloria.
Explain how this worth the ad money?
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Would it make you feel better if I just sold it to WWASP or Teen Help LLC and let them do whatever they want with it? Your incessant whining is disgusting, everytime I get in here I want to vomit thinking about how you have nothing better to do than point out what I have on my site(s). The term "activist" should be reserved for people who actually "do something" with their time. Instead of running around policing what you perceive to be my direct affiliation with people I don't even know. Jesus, please help these people. No wonder you post anonymously, you're completely gutless.
For example, instead of giving me useless information such as telling me about someone I don't even know named Kathie Deloria. You could have simply pointed out where the website is located, at this point I could then evaluate her website and take it down. You instead, find the need to feel good about yourself (at least this is the only logical explanation I can draw) by thinking you're a detective and basically slandering my name in these forums. The Sherlock Holmes act is getting old. Please get a life. For the sake of your own mental health and well being.
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If coming here and reading "makes you want to vomit" Mr. August, then, don't come and read.
Throwing around the word, "slander" huh? You are a lot like your competitor, Sue. Scheff.
It's your website that's selling ADS to the WWASP recruiter,
No one has to be a "detective" to go "CLICK."
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Do you really think I come here to listen to people like you? I come here because it's the largest information repository about WWASP on the internet. I try to avoid bottom-feeding animals like yourself that come here to try to persuade people that their opinion is wrong. I am entitled to my opinions, I live in America, you have no right to tell me how to live my life (morally speaking).
A more pro-active solution to this problem would be to have yourself stop posting information about others that is strictly for the purpose of discrediting them. You obviously must feel I pose some kind of threat because you are attacking my credibility. You're probably Sue Scheff yourself, and you're probably scared cause theres someone out here actually referring to licensed and accredited facilities, which would be bad for your super scam of a business.
You are a detective because your intention is to "seek out" these ads. You obviously aren't a parent seeking treatment options so what the hell are you doing on the website if your not playing a detective?
I didn't even know that people like you existed before coming to fornits. You must have an exciting life, badmouting people through the comfort of secrecy. What a way to live out your days...
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Who attacked your credibility, Mr. August?
You have the right to refer desperate parents to programs,
Would rather live out a life in the comfort of secrecy than in some program referred by you or your competitors, TEEN HELP, or PURE.
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If coming here and reading "makes you want to vomit" Mr. August, then, don't come and read.
Throwing around the word, "slander" huh? You are a lot like your competitor, Sue. Scheff.
It's your website that's selling ADS to the WWASP recruiter,
No one has to be a "detective" to go "CLICK."
Fornits (this website) gives you up to date info on WWASPS Kev, but be careful not to step in shit (take it from me it's easy!). This is a damned if you do, damned if you don't kind of place. Who gives a shit what these people think! If you believe in what you do, that's all that matters. Screw 'em!
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Anti, what is your goal with this site and why do you feel that it's necessary to push "safer programs" as an alternative? I don't doubt your intentions outright but I must say that anyone claiming to support "safer programs" in opposition to wwasps programs is nothing new, nor comforting. Some of the conditions you list in your parent questionnaire will not be helped by a program, depression is one such condition I have personal reservations about. If you could provide a list of the schools in your "database" I would appreciate it.
You have non-placement tips for parents but you don't have anything defining the purpose of placement. As I understand it residential placement should only be used during a time of immediate crisis, and only for a short time(2 weeks in most cases). It bothers me that you don't have anything describing in detail what criteria a program must meet to be included in your database, in fact the only criteria appears to be non-wwasps schools only.
To summarize here's my questions:- What is the goal of your site?
- Why do you offer any program as an alternative to more traditional and proven therapies?
- What schools do you include in your database?
- Why don't you define the purpose of placement?
- Why don't you define the conditions that can't/won't be helped with a long term placement?
- What criteria, in detail, must a program meet to be included in your database?
I feel that under current law any longterm placement is highly risky and should not be thought of as an option. Your views may differ and your intentions may be genuine but you're playing some serious fire.....
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Thank you, CCM! I was debating whether or not to go for broke and do some prostitution while I still have the gear for it. I was worried what my friends and kids might think. But you've reminded me that it doesn't matter. I'll let ya know how it goes, k?
:roll:
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Don't most Referral Companies hire little "worker bees" to help with the recruitment of desperate parents for these programs?
It's reported that Sue Scheff has herself surrounded with such "worker bees."
Perhaps Kev over at Anti-WWASP will need co-recruiters, too.
CCM sounds like she'd fit right in with his referral game!
Sure, CCM, sell those kids into a program. Screw'em!
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In response to Kev's statement about him being "...someone out here actually referring to licensed and accredited facilities..."
It must be understood that simply being licensed and accredited, does not make a facility/program SAFE.
Whitmore Academy was licensed by the State of Utah, and it was accredited by the Utah Board of Education. And, that did not make Whitmore Academy a SAFE facility for the children enrolled. The owner Cheryl Sudweeks was charged with 7 counts of abuse against 4 different children. Her criminal trial ended in a Plea Bargain.
We were referred to Whitmore Academy by Sue Scheff at PURE; Scheff assured us that Whitmore Academy was nothing like WWASP. Scheff assured that the owners, the Sudweeks, were loving, Christian people, who would take good care of all their students. Scheff even stated that she would send her own daughter to Whitmore, if she needed to go to a "school.".
Licensing and accreditation does not assure safety for children.
Licensing and accreditation does not even guarantee that "students" will actually have the opportunity to attend classes, or have certified teachers.
Licensing and accreditation does not gurantee anything!
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CCM, I appreciate your support. I'm sorry you're receiving criticism for defending me.
And to Joyce and Hanzoman, I suppose in here, I should have been much more specific. I have not completed this website, but I will clearly outline my intentions and my objectives when I have the time. I plan on clearly drawing out a suitable set of guidelines for admittance to this "network" as I'm calling it. The plan is to control as much as I have the power to do. I'd love to hear everyones views on what could make the service more appropriate, and safer. The objective is to keep good schools (if they exist) in front of parents eyes.
No one seems to want to consider that if I don't find the type of schools that fit my criteria, I will simply give up on this because my heart is in the right place. I'm not going to falter with my ultimate goal simply because such and such school is going to pay me for it. It's about making a difference, not a financial opportunity. I choose the schools, they don't choose me.
I can scream at these parents all day long till I'm blue in the face that WWASP isn't good for their children, are they taking my word for it? I don't know because I don't see where they go after that. My proactive approach of trying to provide parents with options besides Aspen and WWASP schools when given such an opportunity, that's all I can think of doing. I don't know if anyone has done any searching lately but I'd guess that these two corporations own at least 60 percent of the first 100 search terms for "teen help" in almost every major search engine. I don't even want to get into how hard it has been to simply find schools not affiliated with these corporations. I am also using all of your experience from what has been posted here, to guide me in my search for these "better schools".
As Joyce pointed out, just because I've only said so much, it doesn't mean I don't have more in mind for the service. I'd say the major difference between what I'm offering and current "referral groups" is the chance to appropriately remove schools should any become involved in lawsuits, be accused of abuse, found not to be worthy of treating the students properly, under nourishment, being not properly accredited or licensed, not doing background checks... please don't consider this complete as I'd be nieve to consider this short list acceptable. I'm not concerned about earning money from this. I'm concerned that kids are going to WWASP and Aspen schools no matter how loud you're yelling here at fornits and elsewhere. I'm sorry I can't provide a complete list at this time of everything I intend to filter or regulate through this. It would be irresponsible of me to think that I can obtain perfection here. I don't think any of us think that's possible. What I am trying to do is my best to point parents in a direction other than the ones being offered. I then intend on tracking each families' progress as well as trying to perform surveys of some kind to determine things like: their childs progress, their idea of the facility before and after placement to make sure "what you see is what you get", their childs opinion of the treatment received and of the professionalism of their staff and teachers. I hope that this at least quells some of the interest many of you have in my project. I will do my best to make the guidelines and regulation requirements publicly viewable on the website but I will not be posting that information to this thread. I'm sure someone will do so regardless as that's generally the way things go around here.
This is my last post here at fornits, I've grown tired of the personal attacks from anonymous people, ad hominem (learned this from cassandra, though I may be guilty of this as well cause I don't understand it completely), and generally just being poked and prodded into defense mode all the time. I kept thinking it would somehow stop, but it seems I've spent so much time in these massive debates about my character, my intentions, my this my that. Go whine to someone else. I'm just tired of it all. I'm going to focus on what I originally intended to do, (thanks for the inspiring words CCMgirl) I'm not hiding from anyone, if you need to ask me something I'd be happy to discuss it more with you through email. I'm deleting my account so if you need to reach me please do so through antiwwasp.com.
Keep up the good work around here, you're all doing a great job.
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Thank you, CCM! I was debating whether or not to go for broke and do some prostitution while I still have the gear for it. I was worried what my friends and kids might think. But you've reminded me that it doesn't matter. I'll let ya know how it goes, k?
:roll:
You know it's so tempting Ginger to just get in the ring with you (to throw insults back and forth). But, I'm not going to. You are doing a good thing here with Fornits, and I appreciate it as well as the thousands that take the time to stop by. But, sometimes the things you say make no sense. Try to be a little more open minded, and don't try to push your views on everyone here. You're coming across as the big bad bully. Not everyone thinks like you do, and nor should they. You trying to control peoples minds by not letting them state their opinions without the wrath of Ginger makes you just as bad as "THEM". Which to me makes no sense since you despise all these people we discuss here on Fornits.
Is it possible you've turned into one of them, and don't even know it?
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Don't most Referral Companies hire little "worker bees" to help with the recruitment of desperate parents for these programs?
It's reported that Sue Scheff has herself surrounded with such "worker bees."
Perhaps Kev over at Anti-WWASP will need co-recruiters, too.
CCM sounds like she'd fit right in with his referral game!
Sure, CCM, sell those kids into a program. Screw'em!
No, I think it's much better to sell these kids to the streets. That way pimps can make money off them. Also, it might be possible to have them sell some drugs on the side to maybe support their drug habit if they don't want to hook?
Blah, blah, blah. If you don't think this happens to kids who aren't given the luxury of attending some schools you are the ones who need a reality check. Seriously folks, I don't know what you're smoking?!!!! When kids have knowhere to turn, no parents, no family members, because lets face it folks we live in a very selfish world, where do you think they end up?
Why don't you ask some kids, and even adults that live on the street.....hey, if you had this to do all over again and you were given the opportunity to attend a school that would've given you therapy, edjucation, a roof over your head, and food in your stomach, but you had to live by the rules and it was a structured enviroment....what would you have chosen to do?
I think it's crystal clear, get rid of the schools out there that have been proven to be abusive, and let the ones that actually help exist.
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CCM, no one has sugguested that children be put out on the streets to work for pimps, or that children should be drug pushers, or homeless.
But, by no means is sending any child to a program considered, "the luxury of attending some school."
YOU suggest that parents send their children to "schools that actually help."
WHY DON'T YOU list the names of these "schools that actually help?" The schools that offer therapy, edication, adequate food, a safe, clean structure to live in,...and that has no history of abuse, neglect, or fraud.
LIST THESE SCHOOLS, OK?
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CCM, you mean well and I get your point. However troubled teen programs can be just as damaging as the street and in no way under current law can you reasonably say that program-x is "safer". Institutionalization in a punitive environment devoid of any independent, credible, and accountable oversight is a road to tragedy.
Many of the conditions listed on the parent questionnaire have no place in a punitive residential environment or any behavior "correction" based treatment. Trust me you can't cure depression by locking someone up.
It's also important to note that most abuse is not done out of malicious intent, in fact it's the opposite the "abusers" truly believe that they're doing the right thing... and thats dangerous. The common view and shallow labeling of youth behavior allows one to dismiss themselves from the thought of "tough love" being abuse. The teen in treatment is not a person, s/he is a "troubled teen"(LABEL) who needs to be "fixed" not understood.
I'm not judging anyones approach to advocacy, I am saying that labeling any program as safe under current law is dangerous. The "troubled teen" is a valuable commodity in an unregulated industry that lacks adequate accountability. Traditional outpatient therapies exist for the parent who is willing to put in the frustratingly long and hard work. We need to wake up and realize that what these programs promise is far from reality. You cannot beat someone into good mental health, thats not therapy. Parents dismiss traditional therapy because it will not promise them a magical fix. Traditional therapy promises difficult, time consuming, and frustrating work with no guarantee of a sure fix, but thats reality.
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Kev, thank you for your response, and I have some comments..
I think the posters are directing their comments to your project; and are not attacking your character, or intentions.
You stated you wanted to keep "good schools" in front of parent's eyes "if they exist."
You questioning the existence of "good schools" is in direct conflict with your posting of two "schools" that you have already listed in your safety network: Magnolia Christian Center, and Stonesoup.
You are recommending these 2 facilities--so there should be no doubt in your mind that these facilities are what you consider to be safe.
The Referral Business is a lucrative, profitable industry.
Your statement that your referral business "is not a financial opportunity," simply rings hollow.
You state that your goals include "the ability to regulate" these facilities you will refer to. This appears to be a far-reaching goal.
Licensing agencies, oversight committees, elected officials, advocate "watchdog" websites, have not done an adequate job in this area of "regulation." In fact, most attempts at "regulation" have not kept children safe from abuse and neglect in these programs/facilities.
Children do need to be safe, and they do need services--no one denies that. But: just because a program/school IS NOT a WWASP facility--does not guarantee that the NON-WWASP facility is any safer.
Joyce
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CCM, you mean well and I get your point. However troubled teen programs can be just as damaging as the street and in no way under current law can you reasonably say that program-x is "safer". Institutionalization in a punitive environment devoid of any independent, credible, and accountable oversight is a road to tragedy.
Many of the conditions listed on the parent questionnaire have no place in a punitive residential environment or any behavior "correction" based treatment. Trust me you can't cure depression by locking someone up.
It's also important to note that most abuse is not done out of malicious intent, in fact it's the opposite the "abusers" truly believe that they're doing the right thing... and thats dangerous. The common view and shallow labeling of youth behavior allows one to dismiss themselves from the thought of "tough love" being abuse. The teen in treatment is not a person, s/he is a "troubled teen"(LABEL) who needs to be "fixed" not understood.
I'm not judging anyones approach to advocacy, I am saying that labeling any program as safe under current law is dangerous. The "troubled teen" is a valuable commodity in an unregulated industry that lacks adequate accountability. Traditional outpatient therapies exist for the parent who is willing to put in the frustratingly long and hard work. We need to wake up and realize that what these programs promise is far from reality. You cannot beat someone into good mental health, thats not therapy. Parents dismiss traditional therapy because it will not promise them a magical fix. Traditional therapy promises difficult, time consuming, and frustrating work with no guarantee of a sure fix, but thats reality.
Well said. In the rare instance that a child actually does need to be removed from the home, it should be a temporary and very briefstay in a hospital setting. That's not what these places are about, as you well know CCMgirl. Forcing someone to adopt a set of beliefs doesn't work, even if it's *for their own good*.
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Taken from the Anti-wwasp website, TeenHelp.us
"Help For Parents of Struggling Teens"
WE have been reviewing these treatment options since 2002....
Please browse through OUR helpful Teen Help resources...
WE can help you make an informed decision....
We do our absolute best to point you in the right direction.
OUR programs are hand-selected...
We can work with you in pointing out what WE believe to be some of the most qualifed, safe, recognied schools.
WE'LL never do this to you!
WE understand it is your right .....
WE work closely with the schools WE refer to.
WE can contact an appropriate school for your child.
OUR preferred method of contact is.....
Question to Mr. August, Who is the "we" that you refer to throughout this article on TeenHelp.us?
Do you have a staff?
Who is the "we" that you are working with in your referral project?
Question to Mr. August, WHY the lengthy, detailed DISCLAIMER if you are promising to screen, approve and even regulate each of the programs you place on your "safety network?"
Shouldn't you be willing to back up your promises without some DISCLAIMER; since you are assuring desperate parents that the programs are legit, licensed, accredited and safe?
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TeensHelp.us Disclaimer Information
TeensHelp does not own, control, manage, nor direct any individuals or companies that provide these services. TeensHelp does not assume any liability or responsibility, implied or otherwise for said services, our admissions staff are neither Ed-Consultants nor trained professionals, we merely provide recommendations for services. Therefore, all liability or responsibility for any recommended services is assumed entirely by the service provider, as outlined in their individual enrollment agreements with the parent/sponsors. TeensHelp admissions personnel may receive a fee from the alternative placement option for referring a student to them. Certain sections of the web site may link to other websites or advertisements. Such external web addresses contain information created, published, maintained, or otherwise posted by institutions or organizations independent of TeensHelp. We do not endorse, approve, certify, or control those external Internet addresses and do not guarantee the accuracy, completeness, efficacy, timeliness, or correct sequencing of information located at such addresses. Use of any information obtained from such address is voluntary, and reliance on it should only be undertaken after an independent review of its accuracy, completeness, efficacy, and timeliness. Reference therein to any specific counseling program or facility does not constitute or imply endorsement, recommendation, or favoring by TeensHelp.
So Teenshelp may receive a referral fee FROM the referred school.
Nope, no conflict of interest there.
:roll:
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Kev, thought you said you had no financial motive for your referral project.
Your own words keep proving you are not being honest in your posts.
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In Mr. August's DISCLAIMER he says "personnel" of TeenHelp may received monetary payments for referring children to these programs.
WHO is this "personnel?"
WHO is the "we" he keeps referring to?
This doesn't seem to be a one-man-show.
Wonder who is helping this boy behind the scenes?
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My account has been deleted so don't pm me.
I stated that money was not the issue, not that I wasn't going to be paid for providing something I consider to be a valuable service (once it's completed). I believe you should research the word "ad hominem". I don't believe the blame will stop no matter how much I am capable of providing, you are all clearly biased to any type of referral service which is unfortunate. I understand that years or months of dealing with people who clearly want nothing more than more money from families has taken it's toll on you all. I want to see change. I wish you could take a second and breath and realize what side I've been on for the last 2 years (making little or no money the entire time). I paid 160.00 for the first year of hosting for antiwwasp by myself with no regard for my own bank account because it mattered to me to make a difference and stand up for what I believe in. This is no different for me.
To make everyone feel that much better, no teen has yet been placed by this service as it isn't complete, and thus it would be considered again irresponsible behavior to do so. I've received information from parents already, was I blinded by $$ signs? No. I turned them down, unfortunately meaning they probably used a WWASP school already.
I just want to hear where you think the parents are going to turn once they leave antiwwasp.com? Are they going to seek help from the Aspen Group which is not much different from WWASP? No one answers my questions but I'm expected to answer yours.
If I don't do this it won't stop with me. Someone else with less regulation, less oversight, and less passion for helping people is going to spring up in my place. Teen help websites are some of the most sought after domain names I've ever encountered. I can't believe they missed the one I bought.
I have been in contact with several schools asking about placement to the list and I have not approved everyone. I am seeking different facets of placement. I have checked into options besides offering strictly boarding schools, there will also be strictly substance abuse facilities, and if I can manage it outpatient services like the ones mentioned by Hanzoman. Is anyone considering the fact that I wouldn't be here if I completely disregarded your opinions? Why do you not try something more productive like working with me. Clearly your opposition to this hasn't made me falter in wanting to proceed. The only thing you can do that will help the situation is to help me form the guidelines and responsibilites of members in this network. If you choose not to, I will simply do it by myself anyways because of the resolve I have to complete this project.
Maybe I haven't made it clear exactly what this will be. I want it to be well rounded, offering different solutions than the ones being offered and you are all spending way too much time picking apart every detail of the website, and it's not even close to completion. The ads up on those pages serve as placeholders for all concerned parties.
You might ask why put it up if it's not complete? To start to build name recognition, advancing search engine placement, as well as capitilizing on the extra advertising revenue which has already repaid the price of the domain name since purchasing it a week and a half ago.
As for the disclaimer. I'm not stupid. Why would I leave myself open to unnecessary lawsuits and legal opposition? Even if I stand behind teenshelp, it doesn't mean I'm going to neglect my responsibilities to protect myself.
I keep trying to quit here and I take the bait and come back to defend myself because I care about these teens. Not a minute goes by when I don't think about the kids still locked away in SCL. I try to spend a few minutes each day remembering what I went through, just for motivation. The result is that I still endure many nightmares. Just placing myself there in my conscious mind unleashes my unconscious mind in my sleep and often I have nightmares about being back in the facilities on a regular basis. If you think it's easy to endorse a school after being in one and then getting sh*t for it think again. I never could have foreseen the torrent of misplaced energy created by this affair. It's quite disheartening to see so many dedicated people devoted to what I perceive to be the same goals, cast away my work as you have, without trying to become more involved or take an active role in helping me form it.
Don't get me wrong, I understand your opposition to something new. It may be valid, we'll have to see what happens. I just hope that I can come back here in a few months with my results and show you all what I did BY MYSELF.
It should tell you something that although similar services are popping up all the time (http://www.insightpros.com/Alliances.html (http://www.insightpros.com/Alliances.html)) I actually feel like coming here and putting up with being disrespected, just to gain more knowledge on how to create this service to help people. I suppose that is why you feel the need to attack me (or my service which is a direct product of me), because I am the only one making myself vulnerable.
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So how much do these programs pay in kickbacks?
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I turned them down, unfortunately meaning they probably used a WWASP school already.
After reading what's at anti-wwasp? They'd have to be demons.
I just want to hear where you think the parents are going to turn once they leave antiwwasp.com? Are they going to seek help from the Aspen Group which is not much different from WWASP? No one answers my questions but I'm expected to answer yours.
You want the the answer to that? That depends on where you send them. Send them to ISAC. Send them to fucking Fornits. Send them to me. Very few parents except the truly brainwashed or the truly insane are going to send their kids anywhere after reading this shit.
Then send them to Family Functional Therapy or other real therapies and keep them the fuck away from this industry.
Until you do that and get the hell out of the referral biz, you will be attacked by the anonymous army of the damned, as the next Sue Scheff. Bank on it.
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So how much do these programs pay in kickbacks?
Why? Are you interested? Why do you give a shit? Look, it's his time, and his energy that he'll be taking to fly around the country, and tour these facilities, to interview these students, and faculty?!!! He could work a 9 to 5 regular meaningless job and collect a paycheck for doing so. Instead he wants to do something he is passionate about, and if he makes money doing it, and he's making this world a better place, why do you give a rats ass?
I believe he has the best of intentions. He does know what to look for in these places since he was in them, as do I. If he does his research, and truely picks the best of schools that are out there, what's the harm? I don't see any of you doing it? Why is that? Oh that's right, you all work regular jobs, because you need to pay the bills, and don't have the time to do it, or the knowledge, or experience. When will you get it through your heads? PARENTS WILL SEND THERE KIDS AWAY REGARDLESS. Granted, some kids need it, some kids don't, and hopefully he can knock some sense into those parents whose kids problems can be worked out from home. Do you really think Kev is such a prick he would turn into the devil himself to sell kiddies off to these schools when they don't need it, just to make a buck? Keep in mind all these fuckers who own these schools, or even refer kids to these schools, have never spent one single day in one themselves?
Why wouldn't you trust Kev, or someone like me, that was in these type of places for years? I was in 3 different places for a total of 4 1/2 years, I do believe that counts for something.
BTW- I am not going into business with Kevin! For all of you out there chomping at the bit to start in on me. I am very happy in my current job, which I love because it involves helping people, and I do make a possitive difference in peoples lives, while making a healthy living. But, don't think for a second I haven't thought about the referral business. I have, I will not lie. But, not for the money factor, I like to be very passionate about my work (it makes it a little easier to get your ass outta bed at 4am in the morning). Don't get me wrong, I make a great living at what I do now, and it does involve very long hours. But, switching to this kind of business wouldn't be much of a change from what I already do! If you ran a top of the line referral agency, it involve a lot of long hours, much like my job does now. I wouldn't be sitting by the phone waiting for random schools to get on my approved list. I know this teen industry inside, and out, and I dare you to say any different. Kev has a pretty good idea, and if he does his homework, and does it well, then he's better then most of those referral jack asses out there. IMO.
I can hardly wait to see your responses! I'm sure they'll all be real positive LOL!!!!!
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You know it's so tempting Ginger to just get in the ring with you (to throw insults back and forth).
Yeah, why bother. After all, I'm just whack, remember?
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PARENTS WILL SEND THERE KIDS AWAY REGARDLESS.
They's gonna buy it from the next nigga anywayz!
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CCM, lots could be said about you, a former WWASP student even considering the referral business; or it could be pointed out that Kevin does not have anything creditials that qualify him to be making placements in any program.
But, sort of like Ginger posted, why bother?
I will say, that IMO,You are a fucking, heartless, self-centered bitch
who likes to hear herself talk!
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No anti I'm not attacking you, I'm letting you know my concerns. I don't doubt your intentions or passion but I do doubt anyone's ability to bring order to a corrupt industry without first bringing serious social and legislative change. Having a referral business is something I don't agree with, however I'm not going to knock you for trying to do what you feel is the right thing.
I would like you to take a few of my suggestions into consideration:- Inform your visitors about the industry(as a whole not just wwasps) and the lack of adequate oversight, regulation, and accountability in every program. Even programs that really try to do the right thing have no legal obligation to do so, and accreditation or licensing with an "out of state" licensing board does not cut it.
- Inform parents of the position of the APA (http://http://cafety.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=357&Itemid=35) and the State departments warning (http://http://travel.state.gov/travel/tips/brochures/brochures_1220.html) on facilities located abroad.
- Setup a blacklist of conditions that should not be subjected to punitive behavior "correction" based treatment such as tourette's syndrome, depression, suicidal ideation, add/adhd, ocd, autism, sexuality(LGBT, or regular sexual behavior), trauma resulting from sexual/physical abuse, or counter religious views. These conditions are better addressed with patience and counseling. Suicidal ideation may need a short term placement in a hospital psych ward in times of immediate crisis, key words being short term and immediate crisis. Others like depression or add/adhd may be helped with drugs(not in my case)
- Attempt to identify what's lacking in terms of legislation that places youth in harms way and post it on your site. You could use this to educate parents and to keep track of any positive, or negative, change in our laws.
It would be great to have this put in the parents section or someplace parents would have to come across if they're thinking about placement. Whatever you decide I truly wish you good luck in your stated goal, keeping kids safe from harm.
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Kevin, you claim no kids have been placed by you---yet you post your approved schools on the TeenHelp.us website,, and you continue to ask parents to complete your evaluation form.
Your "WWASP SCARE" does not work here; so we have no way of knowing if parents you couldn't help have enrolled their kids in a WWASP program, or not.
You are correct saying other referral companies will continue to "spring up." SO?????
What do you mean "I haven't approved every school that has contacted me?" You have no qualifications, or criteria by which to approve facilities.
And you asking fornits posters to "help me out with the guidelines, etc." is laughable, if it wasn't so shocking and outrageous. WE ARE NOT IN THE BUSINESS OF REFERRING CHILDREN INTO PROGRAMS. What part of that do you not get?
Your ads are your business; it is your website--but it's a fact that you are selling WWASP related SALES ADS through your website.
Think most folks would agree: YOU NEED THAT DISCLAIMER!
It is a hard concept to comprehend: How strange and difficult it must be for you to "endorse a program after being in one."
You establishing a new referral company is not "something new."
It a lousy, OLD THING TO DO. You are not unique. Sorry.
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Like water off a ducks back, I could care less what you think about me :roll:
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Referring kids to programs just because the parents are going to ship them off anyway is far from noble. A surgeon who operates on a patient ,who doesn't need surgery, just because they would get the operation performed elsewhere is a possible crime(malpractice). The only difference between the two is that one is legally held to account for his/her actions...
But like I said in my last post, please take what we're saying into consideration...
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CCM, lots could be said about you, a former WWASP student even considering the referral business; or it could be pointed out that Kevin does not have anything creditials that qualify him to be making placements in any program.
But, sort of like Ginger posted, why bother?
I will say, that IMO,You are a fucking, heartless, self-centered bitch
who likes to hear herself talk!
Well, I may be self-centered?!! But, seriously, do you think I care what you think of me? It doesn't phase me! Just like me saying you're a fucking freak of nature that can only sit on their computer bitching and moaning about an industry that they'll never do anything about, because they don't have the social skills, or the brain power to do anything about it, or your just to damn lazy?! BTW, who the hell do you think you are calling me a self-centered bitch? Do you really think you'll be able to influence any parents who are thiinking of sending their kids away over this site the way you behave? You're nobody "Guest". N-O-B-O-D-Y. Do you think your fucking posts here save kids from being sent away? The answer would be NO! If you think by posting a few random messages here, and there, are going to save kids, then it is you who has the God complex! I'm the Almighty One!!!!! Hahahahahaha! BTW, I'm not the only one who writes fucking novels on this site......if we all didn't like to hear ourselves talk, and to be heard, we wouldn't be here, you fucking hypocrite!!!!!
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Thought it was "water off a duck's back" there CCM!
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Thought it was "water off a duck's back" there CCM!
My bad, my bad! I won't even revise it, I think it shows how truely exhausted I am! Goodnight all!
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Nite girlie.
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Apparently, disclaimers are not fool proof.
Look at the Turley lawsuit. There are a couple of referral agencies being sued by parents and teens.
Not sure if they had any disclaimers but I would imagine they would, along with business insurance.
Something to think about even if you aren't a top of the line referral agency, whatever the fuck that is.
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I keep trying to quit here and I take the bait and come back to defend myself because I care about these teens. Not a minute goes by when I don't think about the kids still locked away in SCL. I try to spend a few minutes each day remembering what I went through, just for motivation. The result is that I still endure many nightmares. Just placing myself there in my conscious mind unleashes my unconscious mind in my sleep and often I have nightmares about being back in the facilities on a regular basis. If you think it's easy to endorse a school after being in one and then getting sh*t for it think again. I never could have foreseen the torrent of misplaced energy created by this affair. It's quite disheartening to see so many dedicated people devoted to what I perceive to be the same goals, cast away my work as you have, without trying to become more involved or take an active role in helping me form it.
Don't get me wrong, I understand your opposition to something new. It may be valid, we'll have to see what happens. I just hope that I can come back here in a few months with my results and show you all what I did BY MYSELF.
It should tell you something that although similar services are popping up all the time (http://www.insightpros.com/Alliances.html (http://www.insightpros.com/Alliances.html)) I actually feel like coming here and putting up with being disrespected, just to gain more knowledge on how to create this service to help people. I suppose that is why you feel the need to attack me (or my service which is a direct product of me), because I am the only one making myself vulnerable.
Kev, I don't think it's fair to say that all this energy is misplaced. And nobody's seriously attacking you personally, at least not of what I've read so far. It's the plan that's under scrutiny. And what did you expect when you decided to go post an ad on Fornits? Hey, we may be assholes, but we serve a purpose. If you want an issue beat within an inch of it's life, if for no other reason than just to see what's standing when the blood and hair settle, why I've got the crew for you!
Honest to God, my best advice to you is to limit (not exclude) contact w/ program affiliated people. Take in some outsider views. Find out how other people live and think. I'm not being facetious here. I was raised in this cult from about the time I was 6, then foolishly spent the next 20+ years in S. Florida, where my own personal boogiemen own and piss all over everything. It would be like you living, lovin and raisin kids in SLC.... or... say... perhaps... making a vocation that, as you note, takes up a lot of time and energy and, really, pays very little AND keeps you tied to the cult. Even if you imagine it to be a tied at the wrist knife fight, you really think you're up for that, son?
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As for the disclaimer. I'm not stupid. Why would I leave myself open to unnecessary lawsuits and legal opposition? Even if I stand behind teenshelp, it doesn't mean I'm going to neglect my responsibilities to protect myself.
Ok, this is what I'm talking about. You're practically defenseless. You can just say "I'm covering my ass". That is not a crime. You don't have to apologize for it or turn it into a burdensome responsibility.
I suspect you approve of Magnolia and Stone Soup because it's your alma mater. Am I right? Cause drawing on the graduate community for staff and vendors is not usually a very good idea. All kinds of problems arise.
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Why wouldn't you trust Kev, or someone like me, that was in these type of places for years?
Cause I know a whole lot of them. Shit, nearly all of the long term, big wheel staff are program graduates. You should check into pre-purchasing Evan Wright's upcoming book. I don't know what's in it, exactly, but I understand he did some really interesting interviews.
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Why wouldn't you trust Kev, or someone like me, that was in these type of places for years?
Cause I know a whole lot of them. Shit, nearly all of the long term, big wheel staff are program graduates. You should check into pre-purchasing Evan Wright's upcoming book. I don't know what's in it, exactly, but I understand he did some really interesting interviews.
Objectivity on CCM girl and Kevin is highly suspect when involved in this sort of subject matter. How could I trust a program graduate to be objective about a program of any sort?
Can't trust them, and won't.
Program survivors and exstaff are the worst people in the world to even try to go into referring. It is a simple matter of logic to understand why. But rather than delve into the logic part of it at the moment I will point out the obvious facts.
1) Unless you are living at the facility you can't ensure constant ongoing supervision of the staff and their treatment of the residents.
2) Unless you actually visit the place you don't even know if the pretty pictures on the website are for rea.
3) An employer turning over FBI background checks to an outside party is illegal under federal law. I am sure the good people at Magnolia X-tian Reformatory forgot about that one.
4) What educational qualifications do CCM Girl and Kevin bring to the table to assess the educational and clinical aspects of the program? None.
You see it is more than just pulling the stand by boogie man out of the bag and waving it around. Holding up wwasp as your strawman for a bad facility while saying this one and this one is good is impossible. You have absolutely no credentials to make that sort of determination. Futher it frankly scares me that you, a program graduate, would even consider yourself able to objectively evaluate a program.
Every program after WWASP to some extent has to seem like a better placement than what you experienced.
I don't trust in you objective ability to sift through a mass of information without thinking all the while, "Well it isn't wwasp so how bad can it be?"
Well, you know what scares me? People that stuck their noses in books, maybe wrote a few essays, drank a shitload of beer, and basically coasted their way through college to get a 4 year degree in something they don't really know shit about because they never experience it themselves! So, I could say the same of you, who have some of the best edjucations, from some of the top Ivy League Schools in the country to spend 6-8 years in schools just to get Dr. infront of your name???? That really doesn't mean shit to me in regards to finding my teen a school that fits their needs.
Kinda like in that movie Good Will Hunting when Matt Damon keeps on fooling all those shrinks (that was hillarious)! Most shrinks don't know shit except how to put a pen to paper, and perscribe you something. That's pretty much all they're good for. Some of the best advice I have gotten in my life, is from people who are older, and have tons of life experience.
So, what I lack in schooling.......I make up ten times over in my lifes experiences, and the fact I just happen to be naturally intelligent doesn't hurt either.
BTW, my programs include Heritage, Outward Bound (basically survival for a week with no food for 3 1/2 days then very little for the rest with only the clothes on our backs hiking 10 miles a day or so through the Southern Utah Area hot as hell during the day, freezing cold at night), a layover at Orems Psychiatric Hospital, back to Heritage, then shipped to Cross Creek, then freed myself by running at the age of 16 to never return. Being on the run, at everyones mercy. Good times, let me tell you!
So, basically what I don't bring to the table in regards to "edjucation", or having a "degree", I bring to the table life experience. If you'd like check my college records, go ahead, and you will find that during my nearly 2 years that I attended J.C. that I took every kind of psychology class that was available to me. Those were basically the classes I did the best in. I have the ability to see through people, and into their souls. If I were meeting you face to face, I would have a pretty good idea of who you were as a person within 5 minutes. I would do that in a way that you'd never even suspect that that was what I was really doing.
What about the hundreds of girls I lived with throughout my years of placement, and all the different personalities I've dealt with. I think I have seen it all, and nothing shocks me. I also know the guys too. Let's face it, I just know it all! Sorry ,I couldn't resist for all of those of you who think I am a conceited bitch!
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What you just posted makes me believe its all the more important that you stay as far away from the referral business as possible. Really you aren't helping your case any.
Remember... Life experiences... Tsk... Isn't that what they say most WWASP counselors bring to the table?
That is what some of them say, true. But, all the counselors that have said that they had such experience, came from WWASPS schools (and their schools only), and their ways of teaching. That's really not all I've got Gookin. But, don't worry, I have no plans of going into the referral business as I stated before, at the moment. But, if I did, I am sure I wouldn't need your approval, or anyone elses here on this board.
It's not my job to habilitate you all. I don't think I signed up for that job?!!
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What are you so pissed about?
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BTW, your lame ass video of Burger King blowing Ronald Mc Donalds head off is getting pretty old too. That was not even really that funny to begin with?!!! Oh because they're in competition, and you're some how relating that to all this? Oh ha-ha, jesus we get the message!!!! Can you please come up with something new?
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What are you so pissed about?
I'm not sure who that's directed at? But, I am not pissed about anything personally. This is really just the normal Fornits banter that goes on between some of us old timers. I'm a self-centered bitch, they're know it all assholes, really it's just par for the course here at Fornit Hills.
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Shut the hell up Gookin! If you want to come hang me for having my own opinions, then come at me. But, you're the one behaiving like that loser Saddam did.
Next thing you know a wood chipper is going to arrive at the front of my house, along with you, and the rest of the Fornits lynchmob. So, I guess if you had a soft spot in your heart for me........ you'd put me in head first? Naw, more then likely you'll put me in feet first because now I am starting to get the distinct feeling that you really don't like me.
Oh shit, I am definately going to be losing sleep over this one in a major way. Every time I see a wood chipper on the road, I'm going to think.....is that meant for me? Are these my last hours on earth? OMG!!!! I'll be freaking out!!!! Talk about a full blown panic attack!
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WTF?
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So, what I lack in schooling.......I make up ten times over in my lifes experiences, and the fact I just happen to be naturally intelligent doesn't hurt either.
So, basically what I don't bring to the table in regards to "edjucation", or having a "degree", I bring to the table life experience. If you'd like check my college records, go ahead, and you will find that during my nearly 2 years that I attended J.C. that I took every kind of psychology class that was available to me. Those were basically the classes I did the best in. I have the ability to see through people, and into their souls. If I were meeting you face to face, I would have a pretty good idea of who you were as a person within 5 minutes. I would do that in a way that you'd never even suspect that that was what I was really doing.
What about the hundreds of girls I lived with throughout my years of placement, and all the different personalities I've dealt with. I think I have seen it all, and nothing shocks me. I also know the guys too. Let's face it, I just know it all! Sorry ,I couldn't resist for all of those of you who think I am a conceited bitch!
You're sounding more and more like Sue Scheff and PURE every day.
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Why? Are you interested? Why do you give a shit? Look, it's his time, and his energy that he'll be taking to fly around the country, and tour these facilities, to interview these students, and faculty?!!! He could work a 9 to 5 regular meaningless job and collect a paycheck for doing so. Instead he wants to do something he is passionate about, and if he makes money doing it, and he's making this world a better place, why do you give a rats ass?
I believe he has the best of intentions. He does know what to look for in these places since he was in them, as do I. If he does his research, and truely picks the best of schools that are out there, what's the harm? I don't see any of you doing it? Why is that?
Because we know how fucking wrong it is.
PARENTS WILL SEND THERE KIDS AWAY REGARDLESS.
That's why I'd rather spend my time showing them that programs are dangerous PERIOD.
Granted, some kids need it, some kids don't, and hopefully he can knock some sense into those parents whose kids problems can be worked out from home. Do you really think Kev is such a prick he would turn into the devil himself to sell kiddies off to these schools when they don't need it, just to make a buck? Keep in mind all these fuckers who own these schools, or even refer kids to these schools, have never spent one single day in one themselves?
I think he probably has good intentions but you know what they say about those. This is a bad idea no matter what the intent.
Why wouldn't you trust Kev, or someone like me, that was in these type of places for years? I was in 3 different places for a total of 4 1/2 years, I do believe that counts for something.
Because you still see some value in some of the programs.
BTW- I am not going into business with Kevin! For all of you out there chomping at the bit to start in on me. I am very happy in my current job, which I love because it involves helping people, and I do make a possitive difference in peoples lives, while making a healthy living. But, don't think for a second I haven't thought about the referral business. I have, I will not lie. But, not for the money factor, I like to be very passionate about my work (it makes it a little easier to get your ass outta bed at 4am in the morning). Don't get me wrong, I make a great living at what I do now, and it does involve very long hours. But, switching to this kind of business wouldn't be much of a change from what I already do! If you ran a top of the line referral agency, it involve a lot of long hours, much like my job does now. I wouldn't be sitting by the phone waiting for random schools to get on my approved list. I know this teen industry inside, and out, and I dare you to say any different. Kev has a pretty good idea, and if he does his homework, and does it well, then he's better then most of those referral jack asses out there. IMO.
You know this industry from your perspective. You don't know as much as you like to think.
I can hardly wait to see your responses! I'm sure they'll all be real positive LOL!!!!!
I can hardly wait to see how you'll try and justify this shit next. LOL :roll:
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CCM, lots could be said about you, a former WWASP student even considering the referral business; or it could be pointed out that Kevin does not have anything creditials that qualify him to be making placements in any program.
But, sort of like Ginger posted, why bother?
I will say, that IMO,You are a fucking, heartless, self-centered bitch
who likes to hear herself talk!
Well, I may be self-centered?!! But, seriously, do you think I care what you think of me? It doesn't phase me!
Yes it does.
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It's not my job to habilitate you all. I don't think I signed up for that job?!!
It's not your job to "habilitate" anyone. Therein lies the problem.
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Right on! ::drummer::
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CCM, quick question.
What is a "good program"?
That is all
-EVERYONE ON FORNITS.
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Ironic Twist.
Kevin at anti-wwasp keeps posting remarks to the effect, "if I don't refer kids to schools in my safety network, they MIGHT get sent to WWASP or Aspen.
Maybe Kevin should check his google ads on his website.
Aspen is advertising, and pushing Academy at Swift River.
Ironic.
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There's a link that goes directly to WWASP too. Doesn't Kev understand parents might figure if they're on an anti-WWASp site that he wouldn't link them to WWASP facilities? With all the websites WWASp has and the way they don't even say they're associated with wwasp anymore it could be very confusing and misleading. Parents could end up choosing a WWASP program without even knowing it.
This link: http://teenswithproblems.com/ (http://teenswithproblems.com/) takes you to this link,
http://teenswithproblems.com/facilities.html (http://teenswithproblems.com/facilities.html) that takes you to:
Academy at Ivy Ridge, Spring Creek Lodge, Carolina Springs, Cross Creek, etc.
And he links to Lon Woodbury:
WWASP Articles - News and Statements
News updates and statements from various sources about WWASP.
http://www.strugglingteens.com/ (http://www.strugglingteens.com/)
Then he's got one leading to WWASP just above ISAC. Just odd.
Troubled Teen Help Military Boarding Schools
Teen Help for Troubled Teens : Military Schools and boot camps with listings of boarding schools. Program for Troubled Teen Help Boarding School and Military Schools and Residential Treatment Centers
http://www.familyfirstaid.org/ (http://www.familyfirstaid.org/) - which links you to:
http://www.familyfirstaid.org/sitemap.htm (http://www.familyfirstaid.org/sitemap.htm), taking you to Tranquility Bay and the others.
World Wide Association of Specialty Programs and Schools (WWASPS
The World Wide Association of Specialty Programs and Schools has been the subject of countless complaints of abuse, neglect, and cult activity.
http://www.isaccorp.org/ (http://www.isaccorp.org/)
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I think Kevin posted that he runs the google ads that direct people to these programs, including WWASP programs because of the $$$$$$.
Sort of like he is starting up his referral company for $$$$$$.
What happened to getting a REAL job?
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Ironic Twist.
Kevin at anti-wwasp keeps posting remarks to the effect, "if I don't refer kids to schools in my safety network, they MIGHT get sent to WWASP or Aspen.
Maybe Kevin should check his google ads on his website.
Aspen is advertising, and pushing Academy at Swift River.
Ironic.
That is why you tell them programs are all wrong and fucked up and the methodology is wrong... intrinsically?
There is no 'good program'... a good facility that has therapy, doesn't isolate, doesn't abuse, doesn't force therapy and does not keep people there who do not need to be there is not a program, its an actual honest to goodness THERAPY PLACE.
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Well, I am not sure why these links would be on the anti-wwasp site? I'm hoping that he will look out for these things, and manage his site accordinately to fit the message he's trying to get across. He should take the refferal business very seriously. It is something that can hurt families permanately if it's not done properly.
As to Niles question a couple posts back, we've beat that one to death in previous topics in the WWASPS forum, as well as the Troubled Teen Industry forum. Go back and play that record if you want to hear it again. I have answered that one atleast 5 times in the past.
Comparing me to Sue Scheff, ewwwww thanks a lot! I don't have much respect for that woman.
As for Ginger (and all others here), I really do not care what you think of me. We've spoken on the phone, and I respect what you do here. But, when you call me names, and shit like that......believe me I DO NOT lose sleep over it. I realize that you don't really know me, so that's why I don't take it personally. You only know me through this site, or maybe have spoken to me over the phone a couple times? So you think that gives you the right to compare me to Sue Scheff? I really don't think it does?!!!!!!
One of the big differences between me, and the most of you, is that I am open to critisism, most of you are only interested in peoples opinions that are much like your own. You are more then welcome to point things out to me. But, in doing so I don't have to change my ways, and think the way you do. Some of your opinions have influenced me, and made me think, and maybe adjusted my thinking on things.........but, a lot of your views of me, or your opinions on the Troubled Teen Industry and how it should work, go into the trash file. Why? Because I swear it's like you came up with a lot of your ideas on how the world should work, and be, while smoking a big fattie or something?!! I just don't feel like you're being realistic. That's why I am constantly saying you need to get off Fantasy Island!
Hey, if you hate me, or despise me, that's fine by me. But, you're not going to scare me off this site like you do other people by ripping them apart. If I wanna put my 2 cents in, I will. When I feel like answering your questions that I think make sense, or that I have not answered atleast a million times before, I will.
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CCM, how about answering the question put to you: NAME the safe schools/facilities out there, OK?
You insist there are safe facilities that you would send "your teen" to. Tell us about these "safe" places.
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CCM, how about answering the question put to you: NAME the safe schools/facilities out there, OK?
You insist there are safe facilities that you would send "your teen" to. Tell us about these "safe" places.
Like I have said before......2 outta the 4 places I went to were great, and yes I would recommend them. Heritage School in Provo, UT. and Orem Psychiatric Hospital. The hospital was a much shorter stay, but it was meant for evaluation. There were kids that had been there long term, and had severe issues. The kind you would basically see acted out in a movie, or television series.
Heritage was great when I was there, and has continued to get even better. I've talked to several students and gotten caught up on their rules and procedures. Theraputic, but in a more lax enviroment, where you can be you. The kids have the best of everything it seems. The school actually puts their money back into their program to improve it constantly. They hire people who are more qualified, and their selection process is more selective then some of the programs mentioned in here. Of course that costs more money, which in return makes it more expensive then WWASPS programs. But, their profit margin is still relatively low compared to some of the programs mentioned on this board because of their attention to detail, and wanting to provide the best treatment possible.
I also have had many friends and a family member of mine who was outta control prostituting herself for drugs for about 7 years of her life, and got help from a place in Florida. All I know about it is is that it's called Drug Farm (not sure if that is a nick name?). I'm not sure if they except minors, or not? It is state run, so I believe you have to be a resident of Florida. But, it's run like a bootcamp. She had the choice of that, or jail, so she made the choice of going 1 year to this Drug Farm place. For a girl who had been shooting up heroin, smoking crack, and screwing drug dealers unprotected she needed that intervention. She swears it saved her life. I believe it has too. She's been sober for 2 years, and I just visited her last Thanksgiving in Florida, and know she is doing fantastic.
For me to start researching all the programs, and start a refferal agency of my own it would take a lot of time, and energy, and not to mention all the travel involved. So, when you ask me these stupid repetitive questions about naming schools I play it like a numbers game. If 2 outta the 4 places were good then that must mean there are good places out there besides that! If I were so lucky, I'd won the god damned lottery a long time ago. When I do something, I give it my all. I don't like to do things half assed. People who are referring kids to schools they know nothing about, or haven't visited, or talked to the parents or ythe kids, but have just compiled a list of schools maybe the ones at the top possibly being the ones that pay the most in refferal fees? Take a room in their house and add a second phone/fax line and call themselves a referral agency, and their guiding these families???!!! That's really fucking scary!
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Shame on you Kevin! Starting an EdCon referral business under the name antiwasp.com is revolting. SS would be proud. She'd probably say "why didn't I think of that?"
Perhaps you mean well. Perhaps SS once did too. If you really want to help parents find solutions, steer them toward qualified professionals and steer them away from programs of any kind. What makes you qualified to decide what is a "good" program and whether a kid needs that or not? Yeah, that's what I thought.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
And I hope your business goes bankrupt real soon.
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Why is the answer to shutting down WWASPS sending kids to other programs? Talk about fantasy island. :roll:
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Wouldn't it so totally pwn if all the programs Antiwwasp referred to were fake programs where the kid just lounges around playing video games and a few trips to the skate park, while his parents are sent regular updates on nonexistent therapy?
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Why is the answer to shutting down WWASPS sending kids to other programs? Talk about fantasy island. :roll:
Well, if WWASPS is ready to do a major overhaul on their schools, and change the way they are run, I wouldn't mind them staying in business. It's that they continue to stand by their way of doing things, which I personally believe is totally fucked up IMHO.
BTW, Fantasy Island is the dream of Kevin putting fake schools on his sight to have parents sent their children wherever to play video games????? Weeeeee! That sounds really cool :roll:
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Wouldn't it so totally pwn if all the programs Antiwwasp referred to were fake programs where the kid just lounges around playing video games and a few trips to the skate park, while his parents are sent regular updates on nonexistent therapy?
RTP2K3 & I were thinking of opening a place like that. :lol: :smokin:
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Why is the answer to shutting down WWASPS sending kids to other programs? Talk about fantasy island. :roll:
Well, if WWASPS is ready to do a major overhaul on their schools, and change the way they are run, I wouldn't mind them staying in business. It's that they continue to stand by their way of doing things, which I personally believe is totally fucked up IMHO.
BTW, Fantasy Island is the dream of Kevin putting fake schools on his sight to have parents sent their children wherever to play video games????? Weeeeee! That sounds really cool :roll:
You are a moron.
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Well, if WWASPS is ready to do a major overhaul on their schools, and change the way they are run, I wouldn't mind them staying in business.
Well luckily there is an army of ex prisoners and family members who were lied to that DO mind.
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Just like any kind of abuse, some victims grow up to be abusers themselves.
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The subject of program referrals is a complicated one.
On this page we'll try to help you sort fact from fiction and explain the dangers of "blind" referrals that are becoming more and more common in the troubled-teen industry.
Referrals
More than likely, you found several web sites promoting various troubled-teen facilities before you found the ISAC site.
There are hundreds, if not thousands, of such sites on the internet right now.
The sites all look very different, giving the appearance that they are independent of one another.
Often the sites are very high-tech, with flashy introductions and cool graphics.
They may try to convince you of their good intentions by offering "free" referrals.
And while the referral will appear to be "free" since YOU won't be the one paying, these referrers will make money from YOUR child because the PROGRAM is paying them to make these referrals.
This can happen one of several different ways:
* Some referrers are paid per child. The more children that end up enrolled in the program, the more money they make.
* Some are paid a flat rate to make referrals. Typically these referrers have agreements with several different facilities.
* Some referrers receive a percentage of the first years tuition after the facility is paid by the parents.
The latest trend involves something even more sinister and deceptive.
Since people have gotten wind of the for-profit referral business, referrers are now teaming up with "child advocates."
These "advocates" will gladly tell you how awful a particular facility is, then direct you towards someone who will help you find an alternative.
We don't know what kind of financial arrangement is going on behind the scenes, but we're sure there is one.
Regardless of what they call themselves, these referrers are NOT qualified to diagnose your child over the phone and they aren't qualified to judge a program as being "good."
And don't forget - they are being PAID to tell you the facility is good.
Quite simply, the internet isn't regulated and the referral business isn't regulated.
We recommend that parents NOT use the internet to find a program for their child.
You just have no way of knowing what kind of person you are entrusting your child to.
http://www.isaccorp.org/referrals.asp (http://www.isaccorp.org/referrals.asp)
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Well guess I better send Isac the information for Antiwwasp then. Hopefully ISAC has a list of bogus referall organizations.
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Just like any kind of abuse, some victims grow up to be abusers themselves.
I really hope that's not directed towards me. If it is, you have no clue of what kind of person I really am. Sorry you feel the way you do, but nothing could be further from the truth.
You're entitled to your own opinion, but I am telling you, you are way off base.
I'm not going to waste a lot of time trying to explain the kind of person I am to you. Because if you haven't figured it out in the last couple years through my posts, or by talking to me, then you'll never get it me. It's too hard sometimes to get through to you guys. Some of you are so fucking paranoid, and don't trust anyone, it makes it almost impossible for me to even post here. At this point, it just might actually be a waste of my time.
BTW, Turley Law Firm has been in touch with me, and I made the decision to take 5 minutes out of my day to talk to them. You know why? Because I noticed everytime when WWASPS made statements to the press that all they kept saying was that all these kids were liars, and manipulators. Believe it or not, that was word for word what I heard way back when. Can you believe that was the same shit that was told to me 17 years ago?!! God, you think they would come up with a new one. Anyway, I told them of my experiences at Cross Creek Manor, and what I saw and experienced (I didn't need to lie or exaggerate). I said that if they ever needed me to make the trip to testify that I would. I said I was not interested in being a part of the class action suit though. I don't want any of their money (WWASPS). I do things that I feel are right, because I believe in the truth prevailing.
You see, I play fair. Even though I got the raw deal at a couple places, I still don't believe all programs out there are bad. I don't feel that all people involved with the programs are evil either. And I am sure as hell, that I am no abuser.
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Parents should seek advice from professionals, not program survivors on the internet. That much is clear.
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Parents should seek advice from professionals, not program survivors on the internet. That much is clear.
They sure as hell can know what a program will do to someone by talking to someone who lived through it.
I mean, sure, if you WANT to make your kid end up like us and end up on fornits, sign right hte fuck up :roll:
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I really hope that's not directed towards me. If it is, you have no clue of what kind of person I really am. Sorry you feel the way you do, but nothing could be further from the truth.
You're entitled to your own opinion, but I am telling you, you are way off base.
I'm not going to waste a lot of time trying to explain the kind of person I am to you. Because if you haven't figured it out in the last couple years through my posts, or by talking to me, then you'll never get it me. It's too hard sometimes to get through to you guys. Some of you are so fucking paranoid, and don't trust anyone, it makes it almost impossible for me to even post here. At this point, it just might actually be a waste of my time.
You must remember how their situation is. They are properly not so lucky as you having relatives, who cares. Relatives, who took the time tracking you down and lecturing your parents.
Also keep in mind what kind of damage Cross Creek could have inflicted upon you if you had stayed in it for a longer time.
You can not expect them to believe you if they did not have the opportunity to live in a program, which cared for the children.
If their childhood was getting pulled to a program in the middle the night and being shouted at, how are they going to recognize kindness and care, when someone is trying to reach out to them?
To all of you: This tread makes me sad. We are all aware of the fact that WWASP should run prisons instead of schools. The conditions children are living under is similar to conditions at juvenile prisons in Russia apart from the seminars. Their program is built upon principles from North Korea. Aspen also have their Lifesteps, which are abuse.
But where are we? We are using our energy against each other instead of using our energy fighting those organisations and making better child protection laws.
Treatment - if needed - should be as local as possible. The parents should drop in every day for an evaluation at a predetermited time. No enrollment without an intervention before the child leaves the home. Social workers should have the right stop a placement. etc.
How do fight against them? By every victim telling their story by publishing them at a large number of sites. I have found several stories at www.voy.com (http://www.voy.com) (unfortunately the tread is broken several places.), but the number of victim stories are far from the number needed. It makes it too easy for the facilities to claim that "...Is is a small number of bad children and greedy parents ,,,,"
I will just be happy to create links between wikipedia and the survivor stories, so I can document every aspect of the abuse going on at such places.
Fight them and not other victim with a slight different views.
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Did you even read the same thread Covergaurd? These fucks are suggesting that they have what it takes to make placement at safe schools. Not just any schools but TBS schools. That makes these fucks the enemy and they will be treated as such.
Fuck fairness. Burn them all down.
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Sometime a TBS is justified, but...
It needs to be as local as possible. I believe that the social network is everything. Sometime the so-called bad company needs to be sorted out. But the most part of the social network needs to stay in order to avoid damage.
Also, the child needs to wants treatment. TBS should be a much needed rest from real life, before the treatment starts. TBS is not the treatment. It is a break needed to gather strength to fight whatever problem we are talking about.
How do you manage to get the child to come and ask for help? By giving your child reason to trust you! As a parent I have to trust them and they have to trust me. If they dont trust me enough, so they will come to me whenever a hard issue in life (relationships, sex, alcohol, drugs) arrise, I have not been a very good parent as well as a very good citizen.
Trust is everything in a family as well when it comes to work. I need my co-workers to come to me and tell me, when they can not perform 100 percent. They do. I also inform them when I need to use my time another place.
They covered for me, when I had a sick relative, I had to visit every day. I have also covered for them.
When said that a TBS can be a solution, it is also important that relatives and friends can visit every day. You can built such places and they are needed in a world as stressful as ours.
The major thing that makes a TBS unjustified besides the abuse is the total isolation from the social network of the child. Could every town have such a place for rest, where the children could get some volentary peace and do their schoolwork, the world could be a better place.
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Parents should seek advice from professionals, not program survivors on the internet. That much is clear.
They sure as hell can know what a program will do to someone by talking to someone who lived through it.
I mean, sure, if you WANT to make your kid end up like us and end up on fornits, sign right hte fuck up :roll:
Niles, any parents at any time could come to me if they needed to know what programs could potentionally do mentally to their kids. As far as you saying " if you WANT to make your kids end up like us, and end up on fornits, sign right the fuck up." Hmmmm.....what's "US" I am thinking I have less and less in common with you all everyday. When will most of the people on this board stop blaming everything bad going on in their lives from past program experiences? I can understand people in their mid 20's still struggling..........but there are people in their 40's that are still like, well if my parents didn't do what they did to me, I'd be a lot different then I am today. Yes, that's true to a point. But, start taking a little responsibility for how your life is turning out.
I have a bit of advice for those of you who continue to whine about it. Get over it! Fuck 'em, and move on. As far as we know, we are only on this earth once. Live life to it's fullest. Stand up for what you believe in, but stop acting like such victims. Really, in the end it doesn't matter who did what to you, and when. It matters what you do afterwards with your life. If you let them scar you for life, you are letting those bastards win. Why give them that, didn't they do enough already?
They're are people in life who are extremely successful, that went through much worse shit then most of us here, and they still came out on top! Because they were fighters. You know why that benifits us? Because when they speak in public on matters related to abuse, and what it did to them, people will listen. When called to a witness stand, to give a statement in court who do you think the jury will believe? A person who is acting all nutty, and going off on tangents, or someone who comes and says look this is my story, this is what it did to me, this is how it affected me for years in my life afterwards, this is how I finally got the strength to move forward, and this is what I do in life now. These are the healthy relationships that I am able to have, this is the company I work for, give any one on this list of 50 people a call to ask them what they think of me. They will all tell you, I am not a liar, or a manipulator, but that I am strong yet sensitive person. Basically, I am a straight shooter. A lot of people on here don't like that because it makes them look at themselves, and maybe they are finally scratching their head going why am I so stuck in the past, and yes it's giving them the power still, and it's been 20+ years later.
For parents out there that feel they were swindled out of thousands, and thousands of dollars. I say go for it, go after them. Bring lots of documentation, and proof. Not only was it your hard earned money, sometimes even your retirement, or maybe your on some fucking 20 year loan program that you feel trapped in, because if you don't pay it, it could fuck up your credit, which in life means everything these days. But, they lied to you. They fooled you.
I'm not going to forget to mention what bad programs do to families. It basically ruins them. Sometimes for 5 years, 10 years, or 15 years for me, or just forever. The family unit is such an important thing, that so many parents forget to realize how fragile it is. The programs that swoop in, and lie to these parents just to get rich will go to hell. And the people who refer them to these places knowing very little about them will be right their with them. It's not fair that while these families lives are fucked, people that work at all these programs/agencies, or own some of these programs, and are making the big money, are sitten pretty taking families on fun vacations, buying the wife new cars, and giving out credit cards with a high limits to everyone in their family to do whatever their heart desires. Yeah, that's fucked. I agree.
But still, I will never say all programs are bad. Never.
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Sorry to say pickle dick a TBS is never justified. If you kid is that out of hand that they need confinement it is a matter for the authorities. Not some flakey idiots spewing purile bullshit out of every orfice.
WTF is up with this shit? All the sudden the ripe stench of program apologists starts wafting over this site? Fuck.. sickens me that people even are entertaining the thought of a fucking TBS.
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CCM girl,
Perhaps you should pull that chain on the side of your head and flush your mind!
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Where does CCM come off calling any survivor of a program a "whiner" and telling them to "get over it?"
CCM need to get a grip and realize it is not a matter of trust-she came on fornits supporting Kevin August and his disgraceful referral business, and talking about her own interest in this referral business, and what a great job she could do, herself.
CCM, you don't listen, but STFU!
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Covergaard, You mean well and I highly respect the work you're doing on wikipedia. I get what you're saying about TBS and kids needing a break from life, however we have to understand the reality of the TBS industry. While some programs may not be abusive there's nothing in place to insure this. Essentially you're placing the safety of children on nothing more then the choices of a few individuals.
The dangers in TBS does not lie in the bad intentions of evil people, but rather in the lack of accountability which is present in all facilities. The answer to stopping the abuse of children in TBS is not to refer them to less abusive facilities, you must first change the law and to change the law you must first make societal change. The civil rights movement and the woman's rights movement demonstrates perfectly the need to change society before you can reap any serious legislative change. I feel that to bring about this societal change you must defeat 3 things- Silence - on the part of survivors
- ignorance - on the part of parents
- Indifference - on the part of Society
Ignorance and Indifference can only be defeated by the collective voice of survivors, without their testimony we will never see change. By referring parents to any TBS without first brining societal and legislative change you will be essentially saying that the current protections are enough and that no societal or legislative change is needed. This is dangerous and will only lead to more of the same, a shady industry with a shady record....
CCM, you have no right to call anyone here a whiner just because they're still affected by the abuse they suffered. We all move on in our own way and criticizing others for not doing so in the timely manner you expect is wrong.
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Where does CCM come off calling any survivor of a program a "whiner" and telling them to "get over it?"
CCM need to get a grip and realize it is not a matter of trust-she came on fornits supporting Kevin August and his disgraceful referral business, and talking about her own interest in this referral business, and what a great job she could do, herself.
CCM, you don't listen, but STFU!
I'd sooner die in the streets than refer a kid to some abusive program!
Anyone who does this is a shitbag opportunist in need of a good beating...
That is all.
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I am thinking I have less and less in common with you all everyday.
I'm thinking the same thing.
When will most of the people on this board stop blaming everything bad going on in their lives from past program experiences? I can understand people in their mid 20's still struggling..........but there are people in their 40's that are still like, well if my parents didn't do what they did to me, I'd be a lot different then I am today. Yes, that's true to a point. But, start taking a little responsibility for how your life is turning out.
Bite me you little shit.:roll: :rofl: Speaking as one of those in their 40s, I would be a lot different than I am today if not for my unfortunate incarceration. I've got a great life now, but it took me a damn long time and hard work to get here.
I have a bit of advice for those of you who continue to whine about it. Get over it! Fuck 'em, and move on. As far as we know, we are only on this earth once. Live life to it's fullest. Stand up for what you believe in, but stop acting like such victims. Really, in the end it doesn't matter who did what to you, and when. It matters what you do afterwards with your life. If you let them scar you for life, you are letting those bastards win. Why give them that, didn't they do enough already?
Yeah, well I've got some advice for you. Follow El Nino's instructions. We're here because people like you insist on perpetuating this bullshit.
They're are people in life who are extremely successful, that went through much worse shit then most of us here, and they still came out on top! Because they were fighters. You know why that benifits us? Because when they speak in public on matters related to abuse, and what it did to them, people will listen. When called to a witness stand, to give a statement in court who do you think the jury will believe? A person who is acting all nutty, and going off on tangents, or someone who comes and says look this is my story, this is what it did to me, this is how it affected me for years in my life afterwards, this is how I finally got the strength to move forward, and this is what I do in life now.
People behave differently here than they would in court, moron.:roll:
T Basically, I am a straight shooter. A lot of people on here don't like that because it makes them look at themselves, and maybe they are finally scratching their head going why am I so stuck in the past, and yes it's giving them the power still, and it's been 20+ years later.
:roll: :roll: :roll: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Sheeeesh!! Get over yourself kid! Are you trying to do an impression of staff? It's pretty good. I used to hear the staff at Straight tell me that shit all the time.
I'm not going to forget to mention what bad programs do to families. It basically ruins them. Sometimes for 5 years, 10 years, or 15 years for me, or just forever.
Didn't you just tell those same people to "get over it"?
The family unit is such an important thing, that so many parents forget to realize how fragile it is. The programs that swoop in, and lie to these parents just to get rich will go to hell. And the people who refer them to these places knowing very little about them will be right their with them. It's not fair that while these families lives are fucked, people that work at all these programs/agencies, or own some of these programs, and are making the big money, are sitten pretty taking families on fun vacations, buying the wife new cars, and giving out credit cards with a high limits to everyone in their family to do whatever their heart desires. Yeah, that's fucked. I agree.
But still, I will never say all programs are bad. Never.
And I'll never say that TBS/RTCs and the whole concept on which they are based are effective or safe. Never. So there. :P ::both:: ::fuckoff:: ::both:: ::fuckoff::
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You might as well just shut your fucking yap right now, CCM girl....
(http://http://www.thisboardrocks.com/forum/images/smilies/newsmile55.gif)(http://http://www.thisboardrocks.com/forum/images/smilies/newsmile55.gif)(http://http://www.thisboardrocks.com/forum/images/smilies/newsmile55.gif)
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That post hit home with Anne, as it should have. Hope you take it to heart and get over yourself.
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That post hit home with Anne, as it should have. Hope you take it to heart and get over yourself.
Homo says what?
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Hey little girl, you're sounding more and more like the staff at these places every day. Defending oneself is a sure sign that something has "hit home" with them. Uh huh.
Could it possibly be that I'm even more disgusted by a survivor of one of these mindrape mills is trying to refer kids to other mindrape mills? Nah, it has to be bacause the post "hit home".
:roll:
I've got nothing to "get over" babe. I'm not the one advocating shipping kids off to unqualified strangers to fix, and going on and on about what a great person I am for doing something and what assholes everyone else is for not seeing what a wonderful person I am.
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But you are the one blaming your adult life on a program you were in 20 years ago. Notice how few former program people, compared to the whole population, are on fornits claiming every single program is bad. Not many. At some point, you have to take things in your own hands and get over it and stop living out your disappointments on a message board.
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But you are the one blaming your adult life on a program you were in 20 years ago. Notice how few former program people, compared to the whole population, are on fornits claiming every single program is bad. Not many. At some point, you have to take things in your own hands and get over it and stop living out your disappointments on a message board.
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But you are the one blaming your adult life on a program you were in 20 years ago. Notice how few former program people, compared to the whole population, are on fornits claiming every single program is bad. Not many. At some point, you have to take things in your own hands and get over it and stop living out your disappointments on a message board.
My adult life is great! Why would there be a need to "blame" anyone for that? I blame them for fucking with my entire sense of self to the point where it took me almost 20 years to learn what most people do in their teens and early 20s. I blame them for destroying my family.....because they did. The good things I have in my life now, and there are plenty, are in spite of what was done to me. They are a product of my own time and energy as well as that of my husband and kids.
I'm not here living out my disappointments. I'm here to try and help parents understand that a TBS is NEVER the answer, is not effective and more often than not, is dangerous. Why are you here?
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But you are the one blaming your adult life on a program you were in 20 years ago. Notice how few former program people, compared to the whole population, are on fornits claiming every single program is bad. Not many. At some point, you have to take things in your own hands and get over it and stop living out your disappointments on a message board.
Fallout from these programs affects many of us. What Anne experienced after Straight (concerning custody of her children) would be a perfect example of this.
Perhaps that's due to a realistic take on them (having been through them ourselves). :roll:
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Anne, do you think anon is ccm whore?
PS, I hate the "edited" notice, it's displeasing aesthetically.
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The dangers in TBS does not lie in the bad intentions of evil people, but rather in the lack of accountability which is present in all facilities. The answer to stopping the abuse of children in TBS is not to refer them to less abusive facilities, you must first change the law and to change the law you must first make societal change. The civil rights movement and the woman's rights movement demonstrates perfectly the need to change society before you can reap any serious legislative change. I feel that to bring about this societal change you must defeat 3 things- Silence - on the part of survivors
- ignorance - on the part of parents
- Indifference - on the part of Society
Ignorance and Indifference can only be defeated by the collective voice of survivors, without their testimony we will never see change. By referring parents to any TBS without first brining societal and legislative change you will be essentially saying that the current protections are enough and that no societal or legislative change is needed. This is dangerous and will only lead to more of the same, a shady industry with a shady record.....
Yes, You need to change your laws as you did. Even in Denmark parent can ask for their child or an adult relative to be commited, but before the special trained police-crew comes for the person (Teen escort companies are not allowed in Denmark. We demand some standard from those persons which take persons to treatment. Standards that take some time for persons to learn.), it has to be signed by several doctors and after the person has been commited he is assigned a kind of defense attorney and the case goes before a judge.
Second some politicians should be able to visit any facility without warning. They have the right to do so in Denmark. So, why not in your country. Visitations from officials is not enough, because they get too close to the persons in the facility so they can not stay objective.
Some of answers of the path against better laws you give yourself. We need more testimonies - more survivor-stories.
But stop the internal war. It is a waste of time and only good for the abusive facilities.
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Heads it is Karen in Dallas, Tails it is CCM girl.
Someone flip!
Duh, should've known....
That's got Karen written all over it.
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Heads it is Karen in Dallas, Tails it is CCM girl.
Someone flip!
Anne, do you think anon is ccm whore?
PS, I hate that "edited" notice. It's displeasing aesthetically.
I figured it was one or the other. Those people are all becoming indistinguishable from one another.
What gives Karen? What's your problem with me?
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But you are the one blaming your adult life on a program you were in 20 years ago. Notice how few former program people, compared to the whole population, are on fornits claiming every single program is bad. Not many. At some point, you have to take things in your own hands and get over it and stop living out your disappointments on a message board.
You're right not many people are on fornits speaking about the evils of programs, no wonder no one is held responsible for the abuse children suffer.
Do realize this Guest, just like with rape a survivor is affected by the abuse they suffered and their adult life won't escape that trauma. Telling them to just get over it is beyond cruel, how about telling the fucks who abused them to eat shit and die right along with the bastards who referred them to abuse camp. Sorry was that not civil?
EDIT:I'm sorry but is Karen the evocation of evil or something?
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Stay away from both of them! They've got SPD!!! And it appears to be contagious.
:o :scared:
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To the poster CCM:
Would you like to tell the children at Whitmore Acadmey to just "get over the mental, psychological, physical, sexual abuse they suffered while enrolled at this facility?" Why don't you tell us parents exactly how they are suppose to accomplish this "just getting over it?" And what's the time frame until YOU get to classify our children as WHINERS if they don't GET OVER IT?
If you weren't abused in your numerous placements, then I am extremely happy for you, and pleased that you can look back on your time in facilities so favorable. Our children were not so fortunate.
And, most of our children were referred to Whitmore Academy by Sue Scheff of PURE. We listened to Sheff's recommendadtion of Whithmore as a "kinder, gentler, SAFE program" because she convinced us it was SAFE BECAUSE IT WAS NOT WWASP.
Does this sound anywhere near familiar to what you and Kev over at Anti-WWASP is saying?
You have your right to your opinions, but your judgmental approach to surviors, and how they deal with their abuse--however long it might take, is disgraceful.
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I have a bit of advice for those of you who continue to whine about it. Get over it! Fuck 'em, and move on. As far as we know, we are only on this earth once. Live life to it's fullest. Stand up for what you believe in, but stop acting like such victims. Really, in the end it doesn't matter who did what to you, and when. It matters what you do afterwards with your life. If you let them scar you for life, you are letting those bastards win. Why give them that, didn't they do enough already?
What a strange thing to say to a group of program survivors, activists and people interested in helping other families avoid this deadly industry. You are a program survivor, right? Why are you posting here still and not outside swimming in your pool or whatever? Get over it already! :roll:
Because when they speak in public on matters related to abuse, and what it did to them, people will listen. When called to a witness stand, to give a statement in court who do you think the jury will believe? A person who is acting all nutty, and going off on tangents, or someone who comes and says look this is my story, this is what it did to me, this is how it affected me for years in my life afterwards, this is how I finally got the strength to move forward, and this is what I do in life now.
So everyone here is nutty and crazy and not successful? Get fucking real. Please.
These are the healthy relationships that I am able to have, this is the company I work for, give any one on this list of 50 people a call to ask them what they think of me. They will all tell you, I am not a liar, or a manipulator, but that I am strong yet sensitive person. Basically, I am a straight shooter. A lot of people on here don't like that because it makes them look at themselves, and maybe they are finally scratching their head going why am I so stuck in the past, and yes it's giving them the power still, and it's been 20+ years later.
You ARE stuck in the past, just like a lot of other people. You are here posting aren't you? So you must care to a degree. You sure do go far to make a point about how succesful, and how many friends you have. People don't normally emphasize these things when they speak, your experiences show.
For parents out there that feel they were swindled out of thousands, and thousands of dollars. I say go for it, go after them. Bring lots of documentation, and proof. Not only was it your hard earned money, sometimes even your retirement, or maybe your on some fucking 20 year loan program that you feel trapped in, because if you don't pay it, it could fuck up your credit, which in life means everything these days. But, they lied to you. They fooled you.
Not all parents. Don't you remember the seminar, and all the parents present during them? It's parents lying to other parents, and their kids who lie to other parents that get them to send their kid to the program. WWASPS does very little marketing itself, almost all kids are brought in by referalls from parents and program graduates.
But still, I will never say all programs are bad. Never.
Well no shit, that's because it's not true! Wha IS true is that you are Kevin is NO WAY qualified to make that distinction for other parents. THAT is what this thread is about, that's it. It's not about you, or your life, or if you think ALL programs are bad. Don't you get that?
" Hmmmm.....what's "US" I am thinking I have less and less in common with you all everyday.
The only thing program survivors have in common is being in a program at one point in their life. There is no "we".
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This reminds me of some of other threads, where program survivors find this board and people talking about the program they were in. So they start posting how succesful they are, how much money they have, how lovely their family is and how many friends they ahve.They tell everyone else how they should just "get over it" (while not even knowing what they are telling the person to get over) and move on, and be succesful like they were.
You know what I am talking about, you've seen plenty of those posts too if you've been here reading.
There is clearly a pattern to this. I think its obvious that these seemingly arrogant and rude posters are really hurting and have low self esteem on the inside, and need desperately to project a succesful image, even if its just to strangers over the internet.
I reread the posts in this thread by CCM and she doesn't even address the points being made by other posters, she just goes off on self absorbed tangents about how she is so much better than everyone else here, how she is the most qualified teenage expert psychologist ever, ego galore.
I've seen this pattern over and over here, in all the program forums.
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Maybe that's why CCM was called a "...heartless, self-certered b....., who likes to hear herself talk," and has been told countless times to STFU?
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Good point Anon.
I think there is a certain degree of malignant "narcissism" in every referral agent. They all seem to think they have a special talent for the work (s.i.c.) they do. Many, if not all, appear to have no conscious. Selling kids into programs isn't disgusting to them. They actually think they deserve respect and appreciation for saving families in crisis, and of course, saving them from making the biggest mistake of their lives ... choosing a WWASPS program instead of one of their "recommended" programs.
All the more reason to steer clear of these program referral agencies. . They are not objective. They are essentially predators who use the Internet to prey upon desperate, naive, gullible parents.
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Feels grandiose and self-important (e.g., exaggerates accomplishments, talents, skills, contacts, and personality traits to the point of lying, demands to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements);
Is obsessed with fantasies of unlimited success, fame, fearsome power or omnipotence, unequalled brilliance (the cerebral narcissist), bodily beauty or sexual performance (the somatic narcissist), or ideal, everlasting, all-conquering love or passion;
Firmly convinced that he or she is unique and, being special, can only be understood by, should only be treated by, or associate with, other special or unique, or high-status people (or institutions);
Requires excessive admiration, adulation, attention and affirmation - or, failing that, wishes to be feared and to be notorious (Narcissistic Supply);
Feels entitled. Demands automatic and full compliance with his or her unreasonable expectations for special and favourable priority treatment;
Is "interpersonally exploitative", i.e., uses others to achieve his or her own ends;
Devoid of empathy. Is unable or unwilling to identify with, acknowledge, or accept the feelings, needs, preferences, priorities, and choices of others;
Constantly envious of others and seeks to hurt or destroy the objects of his or her frustration. Suffers from persecutory (paranoid) delusions as he or she believes that they feel the same about him or her and are likely to act similarly;
Behaves arrogantly and haughtily. Feels superior, omnipotent, omniscient, invincible, immune, "above the law", and omnipresent (magical thinking). Rages when frustrated, contradicted, or confronted by people he or she considers inferior to him or her and unworthy.
http://samvak.tripod.com/1.html (http://samvak.tripod.com/1.html)
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Here's another person who seems to think she knows how program survivors "feel" and what they "want". :roll:
http://suescheff.com/ (http://suescheff.com/)
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Why does Karen always run away after being busted?
::crybaby:: ::bwahaha:: ::bwahaha::
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Wow, that's a shocker coming home to all this! Once again, no sleep will be lost.
Fuck you all very much for your comments!
Sincerely,
CCM girl 1989
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You're fucking welcome. Nite, nite..
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Narcisstic, uncaring, self-centered, self-serving,.....and such a trashy mouth, too! Hey CCM, you just might be right up there with the REFERRAL DIVA after all!
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Ah, come on CCM gal. You know you can't restrict yourself to such a short little vulgar post. You'll be right back.. Can't help but listen to yourself yak, now can you?
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Maybe not. People like that usually end up coming in, taking their pot-shots and running. Sort of like a drive-by. They can't handle it when people refute their bogus claims, so they run.
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They can't handle the truth!!!
(http://http://www.leadershipnow.com/leadingblog/images/truth.jpg)
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CCM is a WHINER!
or to use her lovely language, she's a fucking WHINER!
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Wow, that's a shocker coming home to all this! Once again, no sleep will be lost.
Fuck you all very much for your comments!
Sincerely,
CCM girl 1989
Hello?
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"fuck you all very much" to suvivors and parents of kids who have been abused in programs? What's this CCM's real problem? She needs a reality check, and some help developing a bit of empathy, and perhaps some serious deprogramming, herself.
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and perhaps some serious deprogramming, herself.
[/b]
:tup: :tup: :tup: :tup:
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How about some anger management for MISS CCM, too? She's filled with anger it seems. All this vile language, and the desire to ship other people's kids off to programs. Lots of anger there.
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Since CCM and Kev have no qualms about referring kids to programs, it might be interesting to know how long these two spent in the upper levels during their stay in their WWASP programs. This might give some insight into their continued "program speak," and CCM's view of past surviors as "whiners who need to get over it, and view programs as a good thing for kids." It's one thing to be on the receiving end of abuse, and quite another to be the staff's helper in dishing out that abuse.
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Listen, a couple years ago when I came across this sight called Fornits. I was welcomed in. I felt great knowing that others out there felt the same way I did, and had similar experiences. It had been a very long time since I had thought about my times of placement, and actually had other people that were able to empathize with me. That was a comforting feeling. I was willing to protest, fly wherever, I had no job, and enough money and freedom to get me there, and NOBODY was interested in getting these places shut down. Well, very few, but not seriousley. I tried to get people do make a move to get off their fucking computers, and off their asses to do something, but they wouldn't budge.
Anyway........it just seemed like all people wanted to do was bitch, and moan about their lives, and I let them without saying a word. I gave them the benefit of the doubt, I knew how they felt. As time went on, I was coming to terms with what I had been through personally, and how to take my experiences, and to do something good with them.
It's interesting though.........I do feel that my experiences rank up there with the most severe cases. Abandoned at the age of 12, I had abuse in my childhood, abuse in my placements, god, I used to think will I ever catch a fucking break? But, I got better. You guys here all helped me feel better (until now of course, LOL). You made me feel like I wasn't alone in the world, and from the bottom of my cold self heartless bitch of a heart, I thank you for that.
But, we had are differences. As far as treatment centers were concerned atleast. I'm sorry I called you whiners, and I maybe I said it without thinking? But, it's very hard for me to see the people that where here before me, still be so affected by their youth. I know you know , that there are places out there, that help kids, and that don't hurt them, come on who are we kidding?
If it's your intent is to always have an open door, and heart for those who are struggling with their demons, then I will back off. But, at the same time, don't you want promote these people to heal? I know you have a message to get out, and I do respect that. But, why don't you promote healing so these teens, and their parents don't feel like such victims? You're throwing a huge pity party, and you're not allowing people to stand strong. Not only that, but if your going to make a difference, throw protests. Do something to call attention to these problems. Don't think google is going to do it all for you! Because they are not.
Then when people try to do something, like Kevin did, you give him all kinds of shit. Maybe he overlooked some things, and maybe you were right about some stuff he was overlooking, and doing incorrectly. But, at least he did something. Atleast he tried. You guys here for the most part (not all), just bitch and moan about had you'd been given a different hand in life, how you would've turned out so differently. Quite frankly, I'm just so sick of hearing that. It's weak.
That's why we've turned out in the end to be so different. That's why you hate me. Because I have rid myself of the pain, and continued on in my life stronger then ever. Why don't you let go of it yourselves, and help others for gods sake, to let go too. But, I guess misery loves company, so you'll keep them in the loop. Anyone like me, you will cast out. Hey, whatever........like I said before, I don't care. I just want other people that come across this site to know that there is an end to all the pain. It does get better. You don't have to live this nightmare forever.
I really don't hate you, and my potty mouth has gotten pretty bad lately, I admit! But, who gives a shit right? We are all just human. Besides, I spend 10 hours a day with 95% men in my workplace. You have no idea actually how much I have been holding back?!! Potty mouth speaking that is!
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blah
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Since CCM and Kev have no qualms about referring kids to programs, it might be interesting to know how long these two spent in the upper levels during their stay in their WWASP programs. This might give some insight into their continued "program speak," and CCM's view of past surviors as "whiners who need to get over it, and view programs as a good thing for kids." It's one thing to be on the receiving end of abuse, and quite another to be the staff's helper in dishing out that abuse.
Upper levels, lower levels? Well, I guess 50/50?
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Listen, a couple years ago when I came across this sight called Fornits. I was welcomed in. I felt great knowing that others out there felt the same way I did, and had similar experiences. It had been a very long time since I had thought about my times of placement, and actually had other people that were able to empathize with me. That was a comforting feeling. I was willing to protest, fly wherever, I had no job, and enough money and freedom to get me there, and NOBODY was interested in getting these places shut down. Well, very few, but not seriousley. I tried to get people do make a move to get off their fucking computers, and off their asses to do something, but they wouldn't budge.
Anyway........it just seemed like all people wanted to do was bitch, and moan about their lives, and I let them without saying a word. I gave them the benefit of the doubt, I knew how they felt. As time went on, I was coming to terms with what I had been through personally, and how to take my experiences, and to do something good with them.
It's interesting though.........I do feel that my experiences rank up there with the most severe cases. Abandoned at the age of 12, I had abuse in my childhood, abuse in my placements, god, I used to think will I ever catch a fucking break? But, I got better. You guys here all helped me feel better (until now of course, LOL). You made me feel like I wasn't alone in the world, and from the bottom of my cold self heartless bitch of a heart, I thank you for that.
But, we had are differences. As far as treatment centers were concerned atleast. I'm sorry I called you whiners, and I maybe I said it without thinking? But, it's very hard for me to see the people that where here before me, still be so affected by their youth. I know you know , that there are places out there, that help kids, and that don't hurt them, come on who are we kidding?
If it's your intent is to always have an open door, and heart for those who are struggling with their demons, then I will back off. But, at the same time, don't you want promote these people to heal? I know you have a message to get out, and I do respect that. But, why don't you promote healing so these teens, and their parents don't feel like such victims? You're throwing a huge pity party, and you're not allowing people to stand strong. Not only that, but if your going to make a difference, throw protests. Do something to call attention to these problems. Don't think google is going to do it all for you! Because they are not.
Then when people try to do something, like Kevin did, you give him all kinds of shit. Maybe he overlooked some things, and maybe you were right about some stuff he was overlooking, and doing incorrectly. But, at least he did something. Atleast he tried. You guys here for the most part (not all), just bitch and moan about had you'd been given a different hand in life, how you would've turned out so differently. Quite frankly, I'm just so sick of hearing that. It's weak.
That's why we've turned out in the end to be so different. That's why you hate me. Because I have rid myself of the pain, and continued on in my life stronger then ever. Why don't you let go of it yourselves, and help others for gods sake, to let go too. But, I guess misery loves company, so you'll keep them in the loop. Anyone like me, you will cast out. Hey, whatever........like I said before, I don't care. I just want other people that come across this site to know that there is an end to all the pain. It does get better. You don't have to live this nightmare forever.
I really don't hate you, and my potty mouth has gotten pretty bad lately, I admit! But, who gives a shit right? We are all just human. Besides, I spend 10 hours a day with 95% men in my workplace. You have no idea actually how much I have been holding back?!! Potty mouth speaking that is!
Have you ever once laid down your own crack pipe long enough to even read what you post?
First of all you dumbass the real issue here is someone helping others to ship them off against their own will. Are you that retarded that you think you can distract us with a bunch of weepy sappy snotty little emotional prattle?
How do you even try to pretend that referring is a legit business for anyone with a soul?
Think hard on these next few points...
If the program was voluntary..
If the resident could leave at anytime...
If the treatment was actually based on something more than the deranged imagination of a sadistic high school drop out's bullshit...
If the staff had real training...
etc
etc
etc..
Would it even be called a program?
Would there even be a conversation taking place at this moment if that is the way it works?
Not fucking likely to both of those questions.
What you are suggesting is so vile it boggles my mind that you can't even see it yourself. YOU want to help parents ship thier kids off to programs. Programs that strip the freedoms of children and leave them at the mercy of the facility. Programs that even when they are good still take the rights of children and shit on them so profoundly that it represents a mockery to the entire ideal American way of life. Do you even know if the parent gives a shit and just wants to scam their insurance company into paying the bill to keep their kid out of their hair? No you don't. Do you really believe you can with 100 percent assurance say that the kid is safe in your 'golden' programs all the time? No you can't.
Kids aren't even safe in their own beds let alone a program where the risk factors skyrocket astronomically the second they step onto the program's grounds.
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I was willing to protest, fly wherever, I had no job, and enough money and freedom to get me there, and NOBODY was interested in getting these places shut down. Well, very few, but not seriousley. I tried to get people do make a move to get off their fucking computers, and off their asses to do something, but they wouldn't budge.
So why didn't you go yourself? Surely you are old enough now you don't need someone else to hold your hand. Most survivors that post here did not go to a WWASPS program, most went to other programs. Only a couple WWASPS survivors post here. So that people didn't want to cross the country and protest a program they never went to is not that surprising. But look closer and you'll see they do plenty of protesting against the programs that harmed them.
I say if you feel like protesting by yourself, do it!! You will still get your point across!
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You're throwing a huge pity party
Same shit the people at WWASPS used to tell the kids, same words exactly.. weird!!!
Anyway........it just seemed like all people wanted to do was bitch, and moan about their lives, and I let them without saying a word.
Well how kind of you to "let" people talk about their own lives and experiences... :roll:
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Not only that, but if your going to make a difference, throw protests. Do something to call attention to these problems. Don't think google is going to do it all for you! Because they are not.
Fornits and internet activists have saved WAY more kids than you ever could dream of from being sent away to programs. You are very self absorbed, it comes across in your posts.
You are here criticizing everyone left and right, so what makes you so fucking great? What did you do that hurt WWASPS so much?
This is fucking ridiculous, I hope you realize how offensive and self centered your posts are... to program survivors and program parents.
If you don't like fornits and want to move on with your life and not partake in the pity party, then don't fucking post here. You are just like Karen to drop in and give your self righteous advice, while doing nothing yourself other than putting other people down to feel better about yourself.
This thread disgusts me and embrasses me.
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Quite frankly, I'm just so sick of hearing that. It's weak.
THEN DONT FUCKING POST HERE YOU IDIOT!!
YOU ARE NOT THE ONLY WWASP SURVIVOR AND YOU DO NOT SPEAK FOR EVERYONE.
IF YOU DONT LIKE THIS WEBSITE DONT POST HERE.
BUT STOP COMING HERE JUST TO INSULT PEOPLE,
ALL YOU CAN DO IS DISRUPT
IS THAT WHAT YOU WANT, ATTENTION?
LEAVE AND NEVER COME BACK IF THATS HOW YOU FEEL.
WE WONT MISS YOUR POSTS.
I AM NOT CRUEL ENOUGH TO RESPOND IN KIND WITH THE KIND OF WANABEE EMOTIONAL PROGRAM ATACKS YOU LOVE SO MUCH. IF YOU CAN TRY DEPROGRAMMING YOURSELF ONE DAY AND MAYBE YOU CAN MAKE SOME REAL LIFE FRIENDS.
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That's why we've turned out in the end to be so different. That's why you hate me. Because I have rid myself of the pain, and continued on in my life stronger then ever. Why don't you let go of it yourselves, and help others for gods sake, to let go too. But, I guess misery loves company, so you'll keep them in the loop. Anyone like me, you will cast out. Hey, whatever........like I said before, I don't care. I just want other people that come across this site to know that there is an end to all the pain. It does get better. You don't have to live this nightmare forever.
CCM Girl read this post very carefully.
CCM, do you realize you are ten years older than most WWASPS survivors?
Do you think they just might have to go through a process of getting through their shit?
You are so self absorbed, you believe that once YOU are better, that everyone else should be too.
How would you of felt on your first day posting if someone like you came here and told you to not post, because its weak and stupid and they should just get over it.
Kids are coming out of WWASPS programs everyday. You say we should just tell them to "get over it?"
You don't give a shit about the kids coming out of wwasps, and if they can discuss what happened.
You just don't want anyone else discussing it, do you? Well that's too bad, these kids DESERVE to discuss their experience and they WILL do it, no matter what some program graduate tells them.
You are obstructing healing of program survivors. I hope you realize that.
It sonds like you would of been happy to never find fornits and go thorugh your life never examining what happened to you. Go forget it all if that makes you feel better. Some of us would rather examine and talk to other survivors.
OH NO I GUESS THAT MAKES ME WEAK RIGHT?! :roll:
Once you get what you want from fornits, you want to see it shut down. That is selfish, and completely self centered.
For once in your life, think about people other than yourself and that they JUST MIGHT have had a worse experience than you, or maybe they just want to alk about it and havent yet. WE ARE ALL NOT YOU CCM GIRL. YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO JUDGE OTHERS.
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Do something to call attention to these problems.
So what have exactly have you done CCM Girl?
Did you sent letters to the Judge in Alex's case? Where did you find out about that story, and where to send the letter? Could it have been this forum? Did this forum maybe help that kid?
Did you send a letter to the judge in Montana this past week to tell them about WWASPS before they start regulating Montana? I did.
I find out about stuff like that all the time on fornits. So this forum helps a lot of people and activists. Why dont you see that?
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CCM:
Some people have "gotten off their butts and done something" in this industry.
And parents do not appreciate "your pottey mouth" and you calling our children "whiners."
If you haven't bothered to notice or READ: Whitmore Academey is CLOSED!
The abusive owner Cheryl Sudweeks was charged with criminal child abuse against 4 Whitmore children. Her trial may have ended in a a Plea Bargain--but parents and students don't control the legal system in the state of Utah; we merely fight for justice.
What exactly HAVE YOU DONE to bring ONE abusive staff to trial be held accountable for their criminal child abuse?
What abusive facility have you helped to close down?
YOU do not get to cuss parents, and call their abused children names and not be held accountable yourself and your vile language.
If you believe "some" programs are good--and that referring children to programs for a FEE is good: that is your business, and your opinion.
But, YOU will not insinuate that my child is a "whiner" and not be confronted for your lack of compassion, empathy, and common sense.
And, you WILL NOT state that parents, suvivors, and concerned citizens have not worked faithfully to make positive changes in this industry to protect children from the very programs that you seem to be promoting.
I will not even bother to point out the hundreds of postings and documents that prove these programs do not offer valid treatment for the types of dianosis that children are placed in these programs.
I will point out that neither your nor Kevin August have any professional credentials that qualify you to advise parents on the placement of their children in any type of a facility......NOR do either of you have any type of professional credentials that quality you to determine if any facility is "safe, or meets the criteria for the levels of therapy and educational requirements of each and every student to be placed." Just because you were a student in such a facility does not qualify either of you to advise parents on medical treatment for their children.
I'm not certain what you meant by your statement that your "levels were 50/50." I know that the children at Whitmore Academy were forced to abuse each other; and they suffer great guilt from this. If you were forced to inflict abuse on your fellow students---and you still refer to surviors of abuse in these facilities as "whiners" I really don't understand your negative views of abuse suvivors. I really don't.
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CCM may just be stupid. She's what 31 years old?
Many women work in a male-oriented work place, and don't feel the need to have a GREAT BIG POTTY MOUTH!
Most of us discovered the word "fuck" in about 5th grade, OK? So, CCM needs to get over thinking--using it in every sentence is a BIG SHOCKING EVENT!
CCM does not get to DICTATE what any poster on fornits talks about: it ain't her own personal "little daily journal."
And she's a liar: she does care what people on fornits think about her---she's narcisstic and she needs to be the center of attention!
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She should smoke weed & destroy the program that still exists inside her mind.
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Doesn't ccm have a myspace account? sort of old for that, isn't she? even posted a pic in her wedding gown? can't this hubby give this attention whore some much needed attention?
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Give her a break she is just expressing her opinion(which I disagree with), no need to rip her a new one.
Come on who wants a drink ::cheers::
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Let's see if CCM can shut her trashy, stupid mouth for about a day, first, OK?
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Doesn't ccm have a myspace account? sort of old for that, isn't she? even posted a pic in her wedding gown? can't this hubby give this attention whore some much needed attention?
My cane would be quite happy to give this impertinent little whore's FAT ASS the appropriate "attention" it deserves! :evil:
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Let's see if CCM can shut her trashy, stupid mouth for about a day, first, OK?
Oh that filthy wench had better do just that or she'll eat the some more of that bar of soap! :flame:
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Wow, you guys sure know how to have a good time here! Party time at Fornits LOL!!!! It's pretty interesting reading what you all wrote about me. I mean, I want you to know how seriously I take it. No really, I printed it out, and I'll be keeping a copy of it on my nightstand to review every night before I go to bed.
You guys need to chill. God forbid I had a different opinion then any of you! You put way too much energy into hating me.
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Wow, you guys sure know how to have a good time here! Party time at Fornits LOL!!!! It's pretty interesting reading what you all wrote about me. I mean, I want you to know how seriously I take it. No really, I printed it out, and I'll be keeping a copy of it on my nightstand to review every night before I go to bed.
You guys need to chill. God forbid I had a different opinion then any of you! You put way too much energy into hating me.
Get over it, youre weak.
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Hate? no. Pity oh hell yes.
She'll certainly be pitiful after I'm through with her! :flame:
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CCM.
I did not post that "I hated you," and I did not consider my post to be "having a fornits party."
You stated that no one has "gotten off their butts to do anything productive in this teen industry" and I was pointing out the work we parents have been working on the past two years in regards to the abuse our children suffered at Whitmore Academy.
I was posting in regards to your comments that abuse victims are "whiners and need to get over it."
You have been out of your program for SEVERAL YEARS, and have time to heal, grow up, and come to terms with your experience in your WWASP programs. The newcomers to fornits have the right, and deserve to discuss their OWN EXPERICENCE wthout being attacck by YOU and being told by you "to get over it" and being told that they are "weak" because they want and need to discuss their experiences."
You have discussed your your background, program experiences, and no one jumped down your throat saying, "it was years ago---GET OVER IT." You were offered support, and understanding.
Your vulgar language, judgmental attitude, and anger directed towards abuse victims and their parents is not acceptable.
This business of referring children to programs by people who have no creditials that qualify them to do so is appalling and downright scary.
I expressed no hatred. I simply corrected you false statements that no one has "gotten off their butts and done anything," I expressed my displeasure of you referring to abused children as "whiners." I expressed my shock that surviors of WWASP programs would consider referring chilidren to programs to be acceptable.
You did not answer my questions: What have YOU done to close down any abusive facility? What abusive staff member have YOU helped to hold accountable and bring before the criminal justice system?
You seem to find it acceptable to cuss people, belittle them, and them simply accuse them of "hating you, and having a fornits party at your expense." That's totally incorrect, IMO.
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CCM, you can have any opinion you want.
The problem is that when in a program you can't think or shit without permission so uh... why defend yourself going "god forbid I have an opinion different from yours" if you're going to get in the referral business?
:o
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(http://http://www.u-blog.net/AURORAWEBLOG/img/Cage-willie_WEB.jpg)
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http://www.thetrainingofo.com (http://www.thetrainingofo.com)
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Niles,
There's a CCM thread for you to post your immature pictures, if you must, OK?
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Uh, last I checked that was of a very mature nature.
Also, I should mention that "O" not only consented to it but had a safe word the entire time, whereas kids referred to a program have neither.
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Also, I should mention that "O" not only consented to it but had a safe word the entire time, whereas kids referred to a program have neither.
A very salient point, Niles.
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CCM:
Some people have "gotten off their butts and done something" in this industry.
And parents do not appreciate "your pottey mouth" and you calling our children "whiners."
If you haven't bothered to notice or READ: Whitmore Academey is CLOSED!
The abusive owner Cheryl Sudweeks was charged with criminal child abuse against 4 Whitmore children. Her trial may have ended in a a Plea Bargain--but parents and students don't control the legal system in the state of Utah; we merely fight for justice.
What exactly HAVE YOU DONE to bring ONE abusive staff to trial be held accountable for their criminal child abuse?
What abusive facility have you helped to close down?
YOU do not get to cuss parents, and call their abused children names and not be held accountable yourself and your vile language.
If you believe "some" programs are good--and that referring children to programs for a FEE is good: that is your business, and your opinion.
But, YOU will not insinuate that my child is a "whiner" and not be confronted for your lack of compassion, empathy, and common sense.
And, you WILL NOT state that parents, suvivors, and concerned citizens have not worked faithfully to make positive changes in this industry to protect children from the very programs that you seem to be promoting.
I will not even bother to point out the hundreds of postings and documents that prove these programs do not offer valid treatment for the types of dianosis that children are placed in these programs.
I will point out that neither your nor Kevin August have any professional credentials that qualify you to advise parents on the placement of their children in any type of a facility......NOR do either of you have any type of professional credentials that quality you to determine if any facility is "safe, or meets the criteria for the levels of therapy and educational requirements of each and every student to be placed." Just because you were a student in such a facility does not qualify either of you to advise parents on medical treatment for their children.
I'm not certain what you meant by your statement that your "levels were 50/50." I know that the children at Whitmore Academy were forced to abuse each other; and they suffer great guilt from this. If you were forced to inflict abuse on your fellow students---and you still refer to surviors of abuse in these facilities as "whiners" I really don't understand your negative views of abuse suvivors. I really don't.
Hey Joyce,
Anytime anyone out there needs me to testify in a WWASPS related trial they know where to find me. I have written a few letters, and countless emails to all different kinds of news agencies out there in regards to WWASPS, about what they are doing, and how harmful this can be to children. I'm not hiding from anyone. People in the WWASPS organization know exactly how I feel. There is no secret as to who I am. This is no unsolved mystery!
I try to keep things seperate. Even here. There are half the people who post here that are so immature posting pictures like above. Then the other half who can be somewhat mature, those people I have no problem answering their questions such as yourself. I know you totally disagree with me, that's fine. My potty mouth is offending you, well, I will work on getting that back into check. Not because it's bothering you, but it's bothering me LOL!
As far as refferal businesses getting a fee, well, I think that if you are taking the time to run an agency like that, well, somehow you do need to pay the bills!
It takes a lot of time, and energy to fly around the country and select these schools. So, yes there is money involved for this service..........so what?
As far as having creditentials to run a business like this??? No, you don't need them. It might look good to have on a business card, or on the front door of your business, but besides that????? No, it just takes someone who cares about kids, and who is smart enough to know when the wool is trying to be pulled over their eyes. In every which way. By the parents, by the schools, or by the kids. That takes a lot of time and investigating of these schools. You could have a therapist in your office who could help you in deciding which of these schools would be a good fit for them. I am not a psychiatrist, or psychologist. But, I am one hell of a good investigator. I would take the time to make sure these programs were run safely, and in a manner to which they should be considering that yearly tuiton fees for these types of schools are between $30,000-$50,000.
BTW, you won't ever see many kids who will volunteer to go into treatment of any kind when they need it. Who wants to leave their friends, and pretty much doing whatever the heck they want to go into a structured enviroment. Are you kidding me?!!!!
As far as people saying that I expect other people to just get over it, because I have........that's not true. I do want kids to know that they can get through it though. You can't blame people forever for the way you are turning out.
The only reason why I bring up the fact that I have friends, and am doing well, is because I want people to know that I'm not some crazy person! Some of you on here are perceived as freaks. New people to this site need to know not to include me in that group.
The pictures you post on here don't make me look bad, they make you look bad. The more you continue to do that, the less people will take you seriously, and if that's what you want, then hey, whatever go for it!
As far as my 50/50 comment. I spent 50% of my time on upper levels, and 50% of my time on lower levels. I saw the way you were treated on each end of the spectrum is all I meant by that.
It's really tough to continue to post here. I feel like you turned on me by putting together a thread just to put me down. All because I have my own opinions???? That's really nice of you. If I can't be involved on a board speaking my mind, while letting others do the same...........why bother wasting my time?
I do believe in treatment. I believe there are good schools out there for kids. I believe the reason the majority of kids turn out to have so many problems is because of their parents. I think the government should oversee all these programs out there. I believe there should always be a phone available to call for help. Kids should never be isolated for long periods of time. I'm not anti-program. I'm against abusive programs that continue to run. To run under changed names, or operating through loopholes in our systems. Or to claim they are not affiliated with this program or that program. I get tired of all the B.S. and the lies too. But, not all programs are like that.
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CCM Writes:
As far as having creditentials to run a business like this??? No, you don't need them. It might look good to have on a business card, or on the front door of your business, but besides that????? No, it just takes someone who cares about kids, and who is smart enough to know when the wool is trying to be pulled over their eyes. In every which way. By the parents, by the schools, or by the kids. That takes a lot of time and investigating of these schools. You could have a therapist in your office who could help you in deciding which of these schools would be a good fit for them. I am not a psychiatrist, or psychologist. But, I am one hell of a good investigator. I would take the time to make sure these programs were run safely, and in a manner to which they should be considering that yearly tuiton fees for these types of schools are between $30,000-$50,000.
This is why the for-profit-child-referral industry should be outlawed. To protect children from being preyed upon be persons who clearly are suffering from some sort of malignant personality disorder.
:roll:
P.S. Your pompass ass is exceeded only by your super-size brain farts.
:rofl:
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CCM,
Thank you for answering some of my questions.
In answering my post: you directed several comments to ME that had absolutely NOTHING to do with me, or my questions to you.
I want to STATE STRONGLY that I resent you posting to me:
"That some of your on here are preceived as freaks....."
"The pictures you post on here......"
I did not post any of the vile pictures on this forum.
I actually posted, saying that these pictures should be deleted.
"You turned on me by putting together a thread just to put me down."
I did not generate this thread named "CCM GIRL"
I certainly do not agree with your statements in your post to me--but that is why we have "discussions" here on fornits. We each have the right to express our opinions.
But, you do need to be more careful about where, and how you express your opinions and accusations.
I did not post any pictures, and I did not start any thread about you.
Joyce Harris
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BTW, you won't ever see many kids who will volunteer to go into treatment of any kind when they need it. Who wants to leave their friends, and pretty much doing whatever the heck they want to go into a structured enviroment. Are you kidding me?!!!!
What evidence do you have that a "structured environment" will provide any kind of help at all?
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My bad!!!!!!!!!
Hey Joyce,
Anytime anyone out there needs me to testify in a WWASPS related trial they know where to find me. I have written a few letters, and countless emails to all different kinds of news agencies out there in regards to WWASPS, about what they are doing, and how harmful this can be to children. I'm not hiding from anyone. People in the WWASPS organization know exactly how I feel. There is no secret as to who I am. This is no unsolved mystery!
I try to keep things seperate. Even here. There are half the people who post here that are so immature posting pictures like above. Then the other half who can be somewhat mature, those people I have no problem answering their questions such as yourself. I know you totally disagree with me, that's fine. My potty mouth is offending you, well, I will work on getting that back into check. Not because it's bothering you, but it's bothering me LOL!
As far as refferal businesses getting a fee, well, I think that if you are taking the time to run an agency like that, well, somehow you do need to pay the bills!
It takes a lot of time, and energy to fly around the country and select these schools. So, yes there is money involved for this service..........so what?
As far as having creditentials to run a business like this??? No, you don't need them. It might look good to have on a business card, or on the front door of your business, but besides that????? No, it just takes someone who cares about kids, and who is smart enough to know when the wool is trying to be pulled over their eyes. In every which way. By the parents, by the schools, or by the kids. That takes a lot of time and investigating of these schools. You could have a therapist in your office who could help you in deciding which of these schools would be a good fit for them. I am not a psychiatrist, or psychologist. But, I am one hell of a good investigator. I would take the time to make sure these programs were run safely, and in a manner to which they should be considering that yearly tuiton fees for these types of schools are between $30,000-$50,000.
BTW, you won't ever see many kids who will volunteer to go into treatment of any kind when they need it. Who wants to leave their friends, and pretty much doing whatever the heck they want to go into a structured enviroment. Are you kidding me?!!!!
As far as people saying that I expect other people to just get over it, because I have........that's not true. I do want kids to know that they can get through it though. You can't blame people forever for the way you are turning out.
As far as my 50/50 comment. I spent 50% of my time on upper levels, and 50% of my time on lower levels. I saw the way you were treated on each end of the spectrum is all I meant by that.
CCM girl 1989
SO THAT'S THAT!
To People Who Are Being Rude and Immature,
The only reason why I bring up the fact that I have friends, and am doing well, is because I want people to know that I'm not some crazy person! Some of you on here are perceived as freaks. New people to this site need to know not to include me in your group.
The pictures you post on here don't make me look bad, they make you look bad. The more you continue to do that, the less people will take you seriously, and if that's what you want, then hey, whatever go for it!
It's really tough to continue to post here. I feel like you turned on me by putting together a thread just to put me down. All because I shared my own opinions???? That's really nice of you. If I can't be involved on a board speaking my mind, while letting others do the same...........why bother wasting my time?
I do believe in treatment. I believe there are good schools out there for kids. I believe the reason the majority of kids turn out to have so many problems is because of their parents. I think the government should oversee all these programs out there. I believe there should always be a phone available to call for help. Kids should never be isolated for long periods of time. I'm not anti-program. I'm against abusive programs that continue to run. To run under changed names, or operating through loopholes in our systems. Or to claim they are not affiliated with this program or that program. I get tired of all the B.S. and the lies too. But, not all programs are like that.
CCM girl 1989
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BTW, you won't ever see many kids who will volunteer to go into treatment of any kind when they need it. Who wants to leave their friends, and pretty much doing whatever the heck they want to go into a structured enviroment. Are you kidding me?!!!!
What evidence do you have that a "structured environment" will provide any kind of help at all?
There is plenty of evidence out there. I'm not going to waste my time cutting, and pasting. There's way too much out there. God, do you all really have that much time? If you do, which it seems you do then I am jealous! For now, I have to go take care of my horse. I don't really have time for this petty shit. Sorry TSW, I am not leaving forever. But, I do have other things to do besides argue with you all!
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There is plenty of evidence out there. I'm not going to waste my time cutting, and pasting. There's way too much out there.
It's TheWho, all over again.
The Surgeon General disagrees. (http://http://www.surgeongeneral.gov/library/youthviolence/chapter5/sec6.html)
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Yes you have plenty of time to sell out children and ship them off to programs. Bravo.. Well done.
I don't have time to do that, I think that's pretty obvious. But, if I wanted to make that my full time job, I could. Once again, I don't need your permission TSW. Or anyone elses here on this board. If I wanted to start my own refferal business, I could, and I would. But I repeat, I have no plans to do so.
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Yes you have plenty of time to sell out children and ship them off to programs. Bravo.. Well done.
I don't have time to do that, I think that's pretty obvious. But, if I wanted to make that my full time job, I could. Once again, I don't need your permission TSW. Or anyone elses here on this board. If I wanted to start my own refferal business, I could, and I would. But I repeat, I have no plans to do so.
That's exactly right CCM.
All one needs to profit from exploitation in the name of specialty schooling is the permission of their own conscious. Something you freely admit wouldn't be a problem for you.
Sad commentary for a survivor of residential treatment abuse but then again, it does serve to underscore how insidious child abuse and neglect really is.
I am very sorry for you.
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CCM,
I will respond to you post to me, now that you cleared up the things that should not have been directed to me.
I agree that it would take a lot of time, money and energy to "select schools." But, again, I ask you, what is your criteria for a "safe facility?" And I have a real problem with calling these places SCHOOLS, ok?
And, how do you assure any parent, or child, that these facilities will remain "safe" on a daily basis?
I say you can't do that.
You state that a person "doesn't need credentials" to run a referral agency; and you would expect parents to entrust their child's future to your judgement---when the only experience you have with programs is that you were locked down in various programs, for what? 4+ years? Your entire teenage years?
Your experiences in a program does not qualify you to determine the psychological, medical, and educational needs of anyone's child. It is as simple as that.
And you are INCORRECT: Some kids do ask for treatment and have volunteered for treatment. You can not continue to make "blanket statements" the way you do, and expect to maintain any type of credibility.
And you are the person who said the words, "Just get over it." No one accused you of saying that---you said it several times. And, words like that are highly offensive to abuse victims; and to the parents of abuse victims...as is your calling abuse victims "whiners.".
Then there is still the "moral issue" if it can be called that: Why would you even consider condoning a business that would have another child go through what you had to endure your entire teenage years---spending their time in some program? That makes no sense, and is very sad.
It is a lucrative business. So, maybe that is the "WHY."
And you are correct: You can do anything you want. It is your choice.
.
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The only reason why I bring up the fact that I have friends, and am doing well, is because I want people to know that I'm not some crazy person! Some of you on here are perceived as freaks. New people to this site need to know not to include me in your group.
The pictures you post on here don't make me look bad, they make you look bad. The more you continue to do that, the less people will take you seriously, and if that's what you want, then hey, whatever go for it!
No one here is doing well except for you, CCM Girl- keep telling yourself that.
Just because YOU say that posting pictures of you makes "us" look bad doesn't mean squat to me or most of the people here.
I have to go take care of my horse.
I hope your horse enjoys himself while you stroke him off... :rofl:
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Yea, it's that Equine Horse Therapy shit they teach these kids in those programs. Gotta have the Equine Horse crap. Right, CCM?
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Your experiences in a program does not qualify you to determine the psychological, medical, and educational needs of anyone's child.
The entire latter half of the program is designed to brainwash kids into thinking that yes, they have the authority and every right to do these things.
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Your experiences in a program does not qualify you to determine the psychological, medical, and educational needs of anyone's child.
The entire latter half of the program is designed to brainwash kids into thinking that yes, they have the authority and every right to do these things.
Oh absolutely! I could certainly vouch for this concerning my experience.
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CCM was parented during her pre-teen and adolescent years by under-educated and poorly trained program staff paid minimum wage to teach her respect for authority.
Where other teens have struggled and are still struggling to come to terms with essentially being abandoned by their parents under the guise of bringing families back together again (how's that for some twisted irony?) CCM makes it sound like all it takes to get past these thoughts and feelings is to click your heels three times while saying "GET OVER IT ALREADY!".
It is sad, even despictable, to treat other survivors with such contempt. But what's really horrid is even thinking about exposing other children to institutionalized abuse and neglect in exchange for money.
Thank goodness so many at Fornits care enough about the safety and well being of children to monitor these fly-by-night referral agencies and expose them whenever and wherever they find them.
:D
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Yea, so much for CCM and her support of Kevin August's referral company he's running over at ANTI-WWASP.com.
Both of them WWASP program survivors.
Totally sick!
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Thank goodness so many at Fornits care enough about the safety and well being of children to monitor these fly-by-night referral agencies and expose them whenever and wherever they find them.
:nworthy: :tup:
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CCM I'm curious, what criteria would a school need to meet to be considered safe by you? That's a pretty open ended question but I would appreciate it if you could take the time to answer it.
I ask because I feel that people like yourself and antiwwasps could make more of difference by lobbying for change and writing bills(that would need to be sponsored by a congressman) that would fix the fundamental flaw of every program, lack of oversight and accountability...
I have no illusions about the law, I know that even state run programs fail and are often abusive. For that reason I would also recommend that all advocates push for societal change in regards to the way we view adolescents. Any meaningful change in the law can only come after the necessary change in societal think, womans rights and civil rights being an example...
I don't doubt your(or antiwwasps) sincerity, but the goal of keeping kids safe and finding treatment for those that need it cannot be meat by you alone acting as the watchman, which is what you are describing in regards to a referral business
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Joyce, you are right some kids do ask for help getting into some kind of treatment program. But, most do not. Nothing in life is guaranteed to bo a 100% safe. When we get in our cars the first thing in the morning to go to work, we risk getting into a accident.
For me, I would start dividing schools into catagories (types, and what they specialize in). Then I would grade them on their level of dicipline, and how strict they were. Therapy, and how much was available. The kind of staff they hired, glorified babysitters with little to no training, staff with knowledge and training provided by the school, staff that was trained and also had a 4 year degree in social work.
For me to sit down and do all this would take weeks to even come up with a system I would need to evaluate a school. As I said before I would have a psychologist on staff that would give me their professional opinion where they thought the child was at emotionally. I would take that into consideration, as well as what the parent had to say, and what the child was saying. After that, I would give them a few schools they could check out.
As far as telling people to get over it, and to not be whiners......well, eventually I hope they do get over it. You can only blame others for so long. I do believe that eventually you need to take some responsibility for where you're at in life. Everyone needs time to heal, but if you keep falling back on the past, and blaming the past you'll never move forward. Most of the world could care less what happened to you 5,10,15,20+ years ago.
CCM girl 1989
For the Guest,
By the way, I have a mare you fool. Those kinds of comments are the ones that unfortunately make the rest of you look so bad. And no, parents aren't going to take the time to sift through all this to get information when you say stuff like that. Get a hold of your sick fantasies!
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If the site's going to be populated by survivors-turned-programmies, then maybe they shouldn't get information from it.
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Joyce, you are right some kids do ask for help getting into some kind of treatment program. But, most do not. Nothing in life is guaranteed to bo a 100% safe. When we get in our cars the first thing in the morning to go to work, we risk getting into a accident.
For me, I would start dividing schools into catagories (types, and what they specialize in). Then I would grade them on their level of dicipline, and how strict they were. Therapy, and how much was available. The kind of staff they hired, glorified babysitters with little to no training, staff with knowledge and training provided by the school, staff that was trained and also had a 4 year degree in social work.
For me to sit down and do all this would take weeks to even come up with a system I would need to evaluate a school. As I said before I would have a psychologist on staff that would give me their professional opinion where they thought the child was at emotionally. I would take that into consideration, as well as what the parent had to say, and what the child was saying. After that, I would give them a few schools they could check out.
As far as telling people to get over it, and to not be whiners......well, eventually I hope they do get over it. You can only blame others for so long. I do believe that eventually I want you to take some responsibility for where you're at in life. Everyone needs time to heal, but if you keep falling back on the past, and blaming the past you'll never move forward. Most of the world could care less what happened to you 5,10,15,20+ years ago.
CCM girl 1989
For the Guest,
By the way, I have a mare you fool. Those kinds of comments are the ones that unfortunately make the rest of you look so bad. And no, parents aren't going to take the time to sift through all this to get information when you say stuff like that. Get a hold of your sick fantasies!
Sue Cheff already did that. She got sued by parents after she refered kids to abusive programs. Do you think you and her are any different?
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When CCM keeps insisting "I would need to evaluate a school" she continues to flaunt her stupidity, her arrogance, and her total lack of an credentials or ability to ever do such a thing.
This referral business is all about money and has nothing to do with "the best interest of children."
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CCM - At any point, would the child, him/her self be evalated by a professional child psychologist who has no ties with the referral agency or a program?
What YOU or your on-staff psychologist and/or a program admissions rep thinks is irrevelant. It's what an independent professionally trained person who has personally met and talked with the child thinks after evaluating all the facts, the child's medical and mental history, etc.
If you can not see the this, than you are not just ignorant, you are pathetic.
:flame:
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You must of missed the part in CCM's post where she said professional means nothing than a few letters by a name to her. When you think anyone is qualified to imprison kids, dangerous things happen.
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For the Guest,
By the way, I have a mare you fool. Those kinds of comments are the ones that unfortunately make the rest of you look so bad. And no, parents aren't going to take the time to sift through all this to get information when you say stuff like that. Get a hold of your sick fantasies!
If I look bad in your eyes, then I must certainly be doing something right. :lol:
Oh, and I think a lot of the parents get a laugh out of me publically humiliating a stupid self-centered bitch like you! :rofl: :P 8-)
So you like licking your horsie's clam, eh? :wink: ::bwahaha::
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Its not all that unusual for victims to become victimizers. It is also quite common for some immigrants to this country to be the first to royally ream their fellow immigrants; newer immigrants make excellent prey for predators from their former countries because of trust. Its not too surprising to see a former survivor becoming an a$$$$$dvocate.
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Thank god! You were wasting a lot of time on me. On to the next internet cruisade?!!!
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Rumors??????????
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Joyce, you are right some kids do ask for help getting into some kind of treatment program. But, most do not. Nothing in life is guaranteed to bo a 100% safe. When we get in our cars the first thing in the morning to go to work, we risk getting into a accident.
For me, I would start dividing schools into catagories (types, and what they specialize in). Then I would grade them on their level of dicipline, and how strict they were. Therapy, and how much was available. The kind of staff they hired, glorified babysitters with little to no training, staff with knowledge and training provided by the school, staff that was trained and also had a 4 year degree in social work.
For me to sit down and do all this would take weeks to even come up with a system I would need to evaluate a school. As I said before I would have a psychologist on staff that would give me their professional opinion where they thought the child was at emotionally. I would take that into consideration, as well as what the parent had to say, and what the child was saying. After that, I would give them a few schools they could check out.
As far as telling people to get over it, and to not be whiners......well, eventually I hope they do get over it. You can only blame others for so long. I do believe that eventually I want you to take some responsibility for where you're at in life. Everyone needs time to heal, but if you keep falling back on the past, and blaming the past you'll never move forward. Most of the world could care less what happened to you 5,10,15,20+ years ago.
CCM girl 1989
For the Guest,
By the way, I have a mare you fool. Those kinds of comments are the ones that unfortunately make the rest of you look so bad. And no, parents aren't going to take the time to sift through all this to get information when you say stuff like that. Get a hold of your sick fantasies!
Can you segregate strictness from... something actually useful and justified?
Would you weed out any and all arbitrary commitments to time spent in the program?
Would you weed out any and all isolation?
Would you weed out any and all COERCION?
Oh, and would you bother to address any other the same old grievances we have had for the past 30 some odd years?
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Deep thoughts by Niles...........who knows what the hell they mean though? But, they are deep. Very, very, deep. Only the brightness of the bunch will truely understand what he is saying. For the rest of us, we will suffer in darkness, and confusion, never fully understanding what the hell he means????!!!!!! LOL
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Just who are you fooling here CCM?
You're either doing one of the best trolls in the history of Fornits, or someone who saw first hand what programs are like is trying to justify them and set up a continuum of strictness and therapy to grade programs :roll:
Unless of course you can somehow justify involuntary programming. You ARE entitled to your opinions, but you are not entitled to take freedom and happiness away from children becuase of those opinions.
Oh, and you know how WWASPS didn't let you have any opinions?
So, just what program would let those kids have their own opinions about programs instead of punishing them for manipulation anyway?
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Nobody can fool you Niles. Especially not me. We used to share some things in common, as far as our views go. But, now I think we are way different. Life goes on!
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So life goes on, unless you're a kid referred by CCM girl?
Ever thought about taking your logic the other way? Kids with involuntary "commitment" in a program can't have their life move on, they haven't 7th stepped/graduated/exit planned yet.
Why do you even still have that sig about control anyway?
I hope you're trolling, I would hate to know someone who firsthand spent years getting abused and neglected would further the same bullshit to the next generation, but its hardly unexpected.
In any event, I would like to ask WHY you feel its ok to do that, now.
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So life goes on, unless you're a kid referred by CCM girl?
Ever thought about taking your logic the other way? Kids with involuntary "commitment" in a program can't have their life move on, they haven't 7th stepped/graduated/exit planned yet.
Why do you even still have that sig about control anyway?
I hope you're trolling, I would hate to know someone who firsthand spent years getting abused and neglected would further the same bullshit to the next generation, but its hardly unexpected.
In any event, I would like to ask WHY you feel its ok to do that, now.
Sorry babe, I am not trolling! Puhleese!!!! I do think I could do a better job then most of the folks in the ed con biz though. It would take a great deal of time, and energy to do that. When I stop working the 50+ hours a week that I already work, and upgrade to a solid 60 focused on the teen help referral agency, I'll let you know!
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I didn't ask that.
I asked how you justify doing to others what was done to you for so long that hurt you so much.
Don't want to answer, or do you simply not have one?
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I didn't ask that.
I asked how you justify doing to others what was done to you for so long that hurt you so much.
Don't want to answer, or do you simply not have one?
I have an answer........I justify it by the fact that my parents selected my school through a Sunset Magazine Issue. There is not anyone out there currently who is tied into these schools. What I mean by that, is that it would be my intention to focus on a small group of quality schools that addresses each individual teen needs, and their families problems, and refer to those only.
Most people out there know very little about the schools they refer to. I promise if I were to go into such a business that I would. End of story. Even a small amount of effort on my part would be 10X more effort then what was spent on finding my placement. I would be the best. I have no doubt in that.
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Uh, CCM, there are no good duckfarms.
That being, coersion/isolation/BM/minimum duration programs do not work, are not good, and can not be defended or justified.
If you are looking for an alternative to programs, that being institutions that treat only those who need treatment and accept it with no abuse, neglect, torture, isolation, LGATs, or coercion, and tell people looking for programs to turn to actual treatment, I would be all for that.
Program apologetics and spindoctoring, I am not.
At any rate, why place people in programs at all? They don't do any good and people turn out fine despite them, and we've done fine for thousands of years without any 'answer' to give parents an easy button.
Until necessity and efficacy is established how can you morally or ethically do edconning at all?
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Most people out there know very little about the schools they refer to. I promise if I were to go into such a business that I would. End of story. Even a small amount of effort on my part would be 10X more effort then what was spent on finding my placement. I would be the best. I have no doubt in that.
I'm sure you would bust your ass to help those kids! Pay no attention to these disgruntled lunatics! They are all just envious of you! You are talking about becoming what they only wish (in their wildest dreams) that they could become themselves.
CCM Girl, I can tell you I have plently of experience in the industry and I know you & I are going to get along splendidly!
Let's do lunch sometime, eh? :wink:
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Dr. Tard,
I'll see you at 12pm at the Starbucks on the corner of Main and 1st St. If it goes well, maybe we can continue on to lunch? Be there, or else!
Luv,
CCM girl 1989
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Ah... playing hard to get, I like that! :lol:
Or else what? I may be able to squeeze you in...
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Again, this self-serving, selfish, abusive bitch nees to STFU!
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Why does this ccm gal have to constantly repeat her dumb ass?
We got it! You work with men only. You work 50 hours a week. You have a fucking horse. You have friends out the ass. You love your cussing potty mouth, because you must think it makes you sound tough-and-cool.
Where that bridge groom husband of yours. Can't he fill in a bit of your time? Give it a rest girl!
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All of this vitriol is not helping any. It is obvious to me that CCM girl and This anti WWASP guy have good intentions. The problem as I see it is that nobody can truly tell a good program from a bad one because it is impossible to know whether you are getting the full story. Places grow and change, staff leave.
I also think that CCM girl and Anti WWASP would do well to remember that this kind of boarding school only exists in the US and that within the US the vast majority of children do not attend such places. This is because it is not a normative thing.
It is playing with fire to suggest that if people are going to send their kids to TBS it should be to a place which is not abusive because the nature of a school which institutionalizes kids is problematic in itself. it creates a highly unnatural world. iIt also discourages the idea that problems should be dealt with by the family, school and community. Is this really the kind of road a civil society should be going down?
Perhaps instead of recommending places that are not seen as abusive it would be better to set up a database of websites of govt agencies and NGOs and foundations which deal with parenting issues or specific conditions EG the autism foudation etc. This will not make things perfect but it will provide a starting point for families.
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All of this vitriol is not helping any. It is obvious to me that CCM girl and This anti WWASP guy have good intentions. The problem as I see it is that nobody can truly tell a good program from a bad one because it is impossible to know whether you are getting the full story. Places grow and change, staff leave.
I also think that CCM girl and Anti WWASP would do well to remember that this kind of boarding school only exists in the US and that within the US the vast majority of children do not attend such places. This is because it is not a normative thing.
It is playing with fire to suggest that if people are going to send their kids to TBS it should be to a place which is not abusive because the nature of a school which institutionalizes kids is problematic in itself. it creates a highly unnatural world. iIt also discourages the idea that problems should be dealt with by the family, school and community. Is this really the kind of road a civil society should be going down?
Perhaps instead of recommending places that are not seen as abusive it would be better to set up a database of websites of govt agencies and NGOs and foundations which deal with parenting issues or specific conditions EG the autism foudation etc. This will not make things perfect but it will provide a starting point for families.
The problem is, our society here in the U.S. has been going down this road for quite sometime. There is no turning back. It is unfortunate, but it's reality. This has become so excepted here, that people don't think less of other people for sending their children off somewhere. Parents aren't cast out of society for sending their children away. It's totally excepted here.
It's just another way of outsourcing as I see it. I don't agree with it, but at the same time I know that there is no way to reverse it. It's been going on for way too long. I dunno Oz GIrl?!! You have a lot of good points about a lot of the things you say, but I just don't know how realistic these things are for us Americans, and the world we've created for ourselves here?
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Why does this ccm gal have to constantly repeat her dumb ass?
We got it! You work with men only. You work 50 hours a week. You have a fucking horse. You have friends out the ass. You love your cussing potty mouth, because you must think it makes you sound tough-and-cool.
Where that bridge groom husband of yours. Can't he fill in a bit of your time? Give it a rest girl!
Why do you have to repeat yourself? I write stuff, and share stuff that I see fit to share. I try to explain, and apologize for my sometimes bad potty mouth blaming it on the men I work with LOL. As far as the horse goes, she's far more important then you all here. Sometimes this back and forth crap gets really time consuming, and I have to go do more important things. I just simply let you know that's what i am doing, and that I am not running and hiding!
I am in my 30's, I don't think I am tough, I do think I am "cool" though, LOL. I do have a great husband, who do you think posts here half the time? J/K, anyway try to get some friends yourself, that's if you can pry yourself away from the computer in that dark little cavelike room you spend the majority of your life in!?!!
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The problem is, our society here in the U.S. has been going down this road for quite sometime. There is no turning back. It is unfortunate, but it's reality. This has become so excepted here, that people don't think less of other people for sending their children off somewhere. Parents aren't cast out of society for sending their children away. It's totally excepted here.
It's just another way of outsourcing as I see it. I don't agree with it, but at the same time I know that there is no way to reverse it. It's been going on for way too long. I dunno Oz GIrl?!! You have a lot of good points about a lot of the things you say, but I just don't know how realistic these things are for us Americans, and the world we've created for ourselves here?
it is true that like Covergaard I come at this industry at least to some extent as a cultural outsider. But if what you say is correct and this industry is a socially accepted norm then look at it this way.
You may not be aware of this but In Australia Indigenous people have only had the right to vote and attend university since 1969. The state up until around this time would in fact literally steal Aboriginal children from their mothers by sending "welfare officers" to their homes and taking them to orphaniges run by white people. They felt the children were better off not being raised by "savages".
In your part of the world black people also did not have the vote until the 1960s. Wider society in both of these places was perfectly ok with this. Because of various civil rights movements such things are now considered abhorrent by decent citizens. Things began to change when those who felt oppressed by such systems began to speak out. The wider community evertually listened and thought about it. This is why I dont think it is a good idea to throw in the towel and accept that referral to the lest terrible or most well meaning is the way to go.
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The US also stole indigenous kids and stuck them in christian orphan homes where they were beaten for speaking their native language, hair chopped off and made to dress like whites.
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I agree OZ girl, great point.......
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There are no good instances of "The Program" because "The Program"---defined by its characteristic components--is a lousy, ineffective "treatment."
There are good, medical-model RTC's for teens with serious mental illnesses. So those would be good places to refer to if the teen has a major mental illness and is presently dangerous---or is willing to accept inpatient help to get stabilized. It would be good for someone to investigate and pass on a list of those.
There are good drug rehabs. Those would be good places to refer to for kids with substance abuse problems. It would be good for someone to investigate and pass on a list of those.
Kids with substance abuse problems who are mentally ill need to go to the medical model RTC to get stabilized and from there to the good drug rehab---that's the proper order of services.
There are good community-based programs (as opposed to The Program) for helping genuinely wild teens to cope better and follow the minimum social norms of respect for the property and rights of others.
It would be a good idea for someone to investigate those, make a list of the best ones, and put together an advocacy class on how to get public officials, health providers, and perhaps "corporate citizens" to cooperate in setting up good community-based treatment where you live.
Frankly, if their kid is doing crimes--other than the victimless kind--it's necessary and appropriate for those parents to call the police. This is on the theory that a genuinely criminal teen is a danger to the community like any other criminal. The parents are liable--morally and not just legally---for what they do once they know their kid is criminally victimizing others.
And, of course, if a kid is genuinely criminally victimizing people, his ass belongs in juvie.
Which is still likely to be more humane than The Program.
Parents whose kids are in deep trouble need options.
But they need good options.
Those are the forms the good options take.
Researching specific implementations of those good options and trying to ensure quality care or just, humane punishment, as appropriate, would be helpful.
Any referrals to the Programs are dangerous and wrong, because the Program itself is dangerous and wrong.
Julie
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I think what Julie had to say made a lot of sense. If that could be done, the kids would be way better off then they are now. I hope someday that it may be that way.....
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That's right CCM; and the goal is to keep people like YOU, Kevin August, and Sue Scheff from sending ---I mean SELLING--kids into these programs in the mean while.
GET IT, bitch?
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Put a cork in it! Once again, you have no clue what you're talking about. Do, us all a favor......... and handcuff your hands behind your back if you can't control yourself. Please, pretty please! I'm begging you!!!!!!!!!!!
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ccm, no one needs you dishing out suggestions of any type of your brand of abuse, OK? YOU AIN'T in a program now, as an upper level bitch, who gets to dispense abuse on anybody. And anyone can say what they wish, and no one has to "put a cork in it."
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ccm, no one needs you dishing out suggestions of any type of your brand of abuse, OK? YOU AIN'T in a program now, as an upper level bitch, who gets to dispense abuse on anybody. And anyone can say what they wish, and no one has to "put a cork in it."
Nobody HAS to put a cork in it?!! I just wish YOU would because I NEVER was some "upper level bitch"!!!! I was just quoted today by a former staff member as a total hellion when asked about me LOL!!!! You have no clue of who I was or who I am today. Remember this.......I'll dish out whatever I want, whenever I want, and how I want. So, back off bitch.
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Remember this.......I'll dish out whatever I want, whenever I want, and how I want. So, back off bitch.
:scared: :nworthy: ::bwahaha:: :scared: :oops: :silly: ::argue:: ::rocker:: ::bangin:: ::hehehmm:: ::eek3:: :rofl: :exclaim: :exclaim:
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I was just quoted today by a former staff member as a total hellion
Why would you give a fuck what a former staff member thinks?
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I was just quoted today by a former staff member as a total hellion
Why would you give a fuck what a former staff member thinks?
I don't care! But, somebody calling me some upper level bitch???? I was the furthest thing from it!
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Put a cork in it! Once again, you have no clue what you're talking about. Do, us all a favor......... and handcuff your hands behind your back if you can't control yourself. Please, pretty please! I'm begging you!!!!!!!!!!!
:rofl:
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I was just quoted today by a former staff member as a total hellion
Why would you give a fuck what a former staff member thinks?
I don't care! But, somebody calling me some upper level bitch???? I was the furthest thing from it!
Well, you ~are kind of bitchy... :rofl:
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I was just quoted today by a former staff member as a total hellion
Why would you give a fuck what a former staff member thinks?
I don't care! But, somebody calling me some upper level bitch???? I was the furthest thing from it!
Well, you ~are kind of bitchy... :rofl:
I know I come across it here at times LOL. Somebody told me a few days ago when they were running errands with me that I command a lot of attention. Yeah, so? Respect me, and I will respect you. If people run to open doors, and push their way through to personally help me with anything that I do in everyday life. Does that make me bitchy? I never talk down to people. When we throw parties everybody is invited. It bothers me you guys have this impression of me as being a cold hearted bitch. I'm just not.
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I suppose the fact that you advocate child torture shouldn't be factored into that?
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I suppose the fact that you advocate child torture shouldn't be factored into that?
Absolutely not LOL!!!!
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and she finds that funny? maybe she's not a bitch. maybe she's just plain old everyday fucking sick.
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I suppose the fact that you advocate child torture shouldn't be factored into that?
Child torture, absolutely not! Wake up calls perhaps?
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Wake up calls perhaps?
That's a nice euphemism. :roll:
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Wake up calls perhaps?
That's a nice euphemism. :roll:
Oh geez, I am so sorry! I meant beat them into submission (my bad)!!!!!
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of course that's what you meant ccm girlie. now you're getting honest.
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You're right, you've worn me down! I better go nite-nite.
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Ok, CCM, if you want us to accept it, justify it.
What are the criteria for a "wake up call". How do you go about setting up a "wake up call".
The programs in question seem to rely on terror, humiliation, captivity and submission to make them "wake up", and apparently require a month or two (at least) to do so.
Why that method? What proof do you have that it works? How do you refute what PROFESSIONALS (i.e. people with enough education and experience to talk about this seriously...) have to say that is completely contrary to what you advocate?
How do you reconcile justifying that with speaking out against WWASPS?
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So if we could get back to the discussion on whether or not trying to get rid of the industry is a worth less cause, ccm girl and kevin you may want to check out this old article from a now defunct sydney paper.
http://www.nospank.net/riak80.htm (http://www.nospank.net/riak80.htm)
It may surprise many of you as it did me to find out that jordan Riak of No Spank lived with his children in Australia in the early 1980s. While this barbaric practice has long since been stamped out, at that time it was a socially accepted practice in our public schools. When a friend of his son was caned by the local primary school, he staged a publicty stunt where by he went to the school, stole the cane and then turned himself into the police for theft so that they would be forced to charge him and the issue would be public. By the end of that decade the practice was banned in all Australian states.
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Why even bring that up?
This is about can a parent arbitrarily have a child get sent off to be tormented, terrorized and humiliated all day, every day, for months or years to "wake them up" to "make them behave" despite the fact that we know all you do by doing that is... uh, terorize and humiliate them.
If they have any real problems, you just made them worse, and I would hardly say a "wake up call" from months of terror which amounts to "OBEY OR SUFFER" somehow compares to education, therapy, and positive reinforcement.
But, oh well, this is the ed-con industry they're getting into, so can't talk about that now can I?
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Hey, I'm jumping on this bandwagon. I am hereby starting my very own Program to provide distance-learning community-based care for your teen. Yes, for the low, low price of US$100, I will personally give your troubled teen his very own wake up call.
When you make your booking for your child, please indicate the date and time you want him woken up. For best results, book early so that your preferred date and time is available.
Julie
(Disclaimer: You agree to place a telephone in your child's room beside the bedside for your scheduled wake up call. You further agree to ensure your child is in said bed at the scheduled date and time. You agree to hold our service harmless and assume liability for any injuries, physical or psychological, resulting from your child's wake up call--including but not limited to PTSD, dental damage, bone or ligament damage, bruises, abrasions, pain and suffering, death, jail, or insanity. You also agree that our service has no responsibility or liability for providing any wake up call at any date or time whatsoever. You agree to pay all legal fees or collection costs associated with our collecting the aforementioned $100 fee from you, in its entirety. You agree, upon our demand, to wear a t-shirt, to be provided, carrying the legend, "The wearer is an idiot." You agree to hold our service harmless in the event that the service fails to provide said shirt or in cases of poor fit with no warranty of merchantibility or fitness for a particular purpose. You agree to hold our service harmless in the event that your child sleeps through his wake up call, or otherwise fails to rouse for reasons of drug use, illness, or any other reason. Void where prohibited.)
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I know I come across it here at times LOL. Somebody told me a few days ago when they were running errands with me that I command a lot of attention. Yeah, so? Respect me, and I will respect you. If people run to open doors, and push their way through to personally help me with anything that I do in everyday life. Does that make me bitchy? I never talk down to people. When we throw parties everybody is invited. It bothers me you guys have this impression of me as being a cold hearted bitch. I'm just not.
I find it odd that you would have that sort of a M.O. for yourself, yet advocate putting children in situations where they have to submit, or else.
It just doesn't add up. So what is it, only teenagers can be n*****s now?