Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Anonymous on October 24, 2006, 04:55:51 PM
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Son currently at Sagewalk, looking to keep him as close as possible to Oregon, where we reside.
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Son currently at Sagewalk, looking to keep him as close as possible to Oregon, where we reside.
That is wise.
You aren't Going to find many people here who will support your decistion in general but i'm right now of a more practical opinion (since you already seem to have a little common sense.). If you're going to send your kid to program, go to isaccorp.org and make sure it's not on the watchlist. In addition, make sure the program gives you none of the warning signs listed on the site.
And if your kid attempts to tell you something about the program, take his word for it. It's not worth risking. investigate. Your kid just might be telling the truth, and you would regret it if you didn't listen, and he was telling the truth. Make sure you can visit him at any time unannounced.
Lastly, Do not under any conditions, take the advice of strugglingteens.com or any educational consultant that recieves compensation from the program in any form (this includes the program advertising for the ed-con)
do your homework. and if you're really determined to do this. Be very careful. this site is littered with "mistakes" of which i was one of the victims.
I'm sure the rest of the site will try to convince you not to send your kid to program. Listen to what they have to say and keep and open mind. There are almost always other alternatives.
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Son currently at Sagewalk, looking to keep him as close as possible to Oregon, where we reside.
That is wise.
You aren't Going to find many people here who will support your decistion in general but i'm right now of a more practical opinion (since you already seem to have a little common sense.). If you're going to send your kid to program, go to isaccorp.org and make sure it's not on the watchlist. In addition, make sure the program gives you none of the warning signs listed on the site.
And if your kid attempts to tell you something about the program, take his word for it. It's not worth risking. investigate. Your kid just might be telling the truth, and you would regret it if you didn't listen, and he was telling the truth. Make sure you can visit him at any time unannounced.
Lastly, Do not under any conditions, take the advice of strugglingteens.com or any educational consultant that recieves compensation from the program in any form (this includes the program advertising for the ed-con)
do your homework. and if you're really determined to do this. Be very careful. this site is littered with "mistakes" of which i was one of the victims.
I'm sure the rest of the site will try to convince you not to send your kid to program. Listen to what they have to say and keep and open mind. There are almost always other alternatives.
I agree with much of Psy's response, with a couple of differences of opinion/view. isaccorp.org's watchlist is not, repeat NOT, error-free, especially when "support" for an inclusion is an uncorroborated report, or a single report or two. That noted, appearance of a name on the list is cause for further investigation. Similarly, I think their "warning signs", as I recall the list, aren't "if any appear" dangers - though some are.
Next, don't automatically take your kid's word about a program, but do investigate if something that ought to trouble is claimed. Kids do fabricate things to "get out", but not everything troubling they say is necessarily a fabrication. As for being able to visit unannounced, there may be some good reasons for not doing so at some times - like late at night (commonsense?!), or in the middle of the wilderness (impractical), also during the first few weeks in a place when a visit might only delay progress as your son might use it to tell you why he shouldn't be there. But in general, you should be able to see him at any reasonable time - unannounced. If not, why not?!
Next - strugglingteens is not intrinsically bad/wrong. Certainly the posting parents as a whole are not so much of the same "programs are good" mind as the majority of posters here say "programs are bad". There really are some excellent places. And taking money from a program for referrals is not intrinsically bad, so long as it is disclosed. If a person makes a living from helping parents find appropriate places for their kids' needs, they are entitled to get paid somehow, although I'd generally suggest you pay rather than a program - sort of keeps incentives in the right place. In any case, ask any recommender if the program pays them.
Finally, when asking for help finding a program, and when discussing possible admission with any program, you really need to describe the issues involved, the kid's needs, your interests, what has been tried, and since he is in a "wilderness" program, what feedback they've given. Just "a program near Oregon" simply doesn't suffice. I can name some good places that fit that standard, but would they be appropriate? I can't tell from the original post.
Actually, you also need to have a good reason why returning home is not a good idea, espceially if, as is often the case, appropriate supports cam be provided and agreements reached.
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also during the first few weeks in a place when a visit might only delay progress as your son might use it to tell you why he shouldn't be there.
Your son should be permitted to question his placement and you should listen, delay or not. That is just common civility. If you cannot explain the necessity of it to him in clear rational terms, then he probably doesn't belong there and you probably don't know what you doing.
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I was about to feed that guy to the PT9K, but AA summed it up succinctly.
The original post is probably a troll and the second reply is a con.
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I'll assume the original poster wasn't a troll and offer this: if your son is not an imminent threat to his own or another family member's safety, why would you consider institutionalizing him? Is he in danger at home (abuse, neglect, etc.)?
I don't care if some programs are not "bad" in the abusive sense. Any place that is not home is "bad" on many levels. Institutionalizing another human being should only be done in the most extreme circumstances, to prevent serious physical injury, and then it should only be done for the absolute minimum amount of time, under the most carefully supervised and regulated conditions, until the situation is stabilized and the imminent danger has passed.
Why don't people get this? What is so complicated about the idea that kids belong with their loved ones?
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If this post is real and your child is in great need of help (beyond what your family is capable of at this time)......seek help locally. The first and foremost should be to keep the family together. If your child is local you should be able to visit anytime *uncensored. If your child is to far away the visits just won't happen. You would do the same thing if your child was still real little and in a daycare. You wouldn't get online, pick a daycare and proceed to leave your little one for 10 hours a day. Your teen still needs that same kind of diligence for their safety and family unity.
Cheryle
****My son was ABUSED & TORTURED at Bethel Boys Academy, aka Eagle Point Christian Academy, aka Pine View Academy (still with the Fountain family involved)
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I'll assume the original poster wasn't a troll and offer this: if your son is not an imminent threat to his own or another family member's safety, why would you consider institutionalizing him? Is he in danger at home (abuse, neglect, etc.)?
I don't care if some programs are not "bad" in the abusive sense. Any place that is not home is "bad" on many levels. Institutionalizing another human being should only be done in the most extreme circumstances, to prevent serious physical injury, and then it should only be done for the absolute minimum amount of time, under the most carefully supervised and regulated conditions, until the situation is stabilized and the imminent danger has passed.
Why don't people get this? What is so complicated about the idea that kids belong with their loved ones?
IMO, Parents don't get it b/c that's not what they are told by the people they turn to for help (namely ed cons and referral agents).
Face it, none of these programs (and the people who sell them) could make a dime if they didn't have K I D S and P A R E N T S (the ones with the checkbook). They are the consumer. The kid having the least rights of all.
Thank goodness for Fornits. At least here, parents will get a hard dose of reality and may have second thoughts about the troubled teen industry in general, and in particular, taking the advice of people who get paid to recommend (sell) residential placements.
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You would also do well to remeber that it is in the financial interests of Struggling Teens to recommend programmes.
If you go through their archives you will find that they have given many schools a good review in spite of numerous complaints or discriptions of therapy that involves hard physical labour or forced confessions.
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Deleted
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Programs don't fix anything, they just force the child to be obedient and regurgitate newage bullshit by making them suffer daily and giving them 'carrots' if they obey, and hurting them if they misbehave outright, and make them feel trapped and tell you to keep them there.
No program has ever proven to do anything, at all, ever, period. They talk about 'emotional growth' and 'parent satisfaction surveys' but they have no therapeutic value.... and frankly no value at all except child warehousing.
Also, if you cant justify what is wrong with him or why he has to be held captive, chances are he shouldnt be, just as AA said.
If you have a REAL MENTAL ILLNESS or something REALLY WRONG you can quantify it. Programs quantify nothing, they just make up stupid reasons to keep you there, to not let you tell your parents how bad it is and keep hurting you until you 'complete the program'. Thats really all its about...
Its just like the stepford wives, minus the computer chips. Unfortunately, its not a comedy movie, and people are really hurt very badly for life in these places.
But its probably a troll anyway. Oh well.
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As for being able to visit unannounced, there may be some good reasons for not doing so at some times - like late at night (commonsense?!), or in the middle of the wilderness (impractical), also during the first few weeks in a place when a visit might only delay progress as your son might use it to tell you why he shouldn't be there. But in general, you should be able to see him at any reasonable time - unannounced. If not, why not?!
You are great with the doublespeak, sure you don't/haven't worked with a program before?
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No program has ever proven to do anything, at all, ever, period.
Oh, I don't know about that. I finally realized how self-absorbed, careless, selfish and greedy my parents really were, and now I see clearly as if I finally have my eyes fully open. I just don't think that is what parents are paying for. :P
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No program has ever proven to do anything, at all, ever, period.
That's a bunch of B.S. I am sure there are a few out there that are good. The problem is, there are so many out there that aren't. When you take bad schools, and combine it with bad parenting, you get a kid that never had a chance.
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No program has ever proven to do anything, at all, ever, period.
That's a bunch of B.S. I am sure there are a few out there that are good. The problem is, there are so many out there that aren't. When you take bad schools, and combine it with bad parenting, you get a kid that never had a chance.
It's not a bunch of bullshit. It's true. Find one study, just ONE that says that that type of "therapy" is helpful. I'll be waiting.
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Bears repeating.
Programs don't fix anything, they just force the child to be obedient and regurgitate newage bullshit by making them suffer daily and giving them 'carrots' if they obey, and hurting them if they misbehave outright, and make them feel trapped and tell you to keep them there.
No program has ever proven to do anything, at all, ever, period. They talk about 'emotional growth' and 'parent satisfaction surveys' but they have no therapeutic value.... and frankly no value at all except child warehousing.
Also, if you cant justify what is wrong with him or why he has to be held captive, chances are he shouldnt be, just as AA said.
If you have a REAL MENTAL ILLNESS or something REALLY WRONG you can quantify it. Programs quantify nothing, they just make up stupid reasons to keep you there, to not let you tell your parents how bad it is and keep hurting you until you 'complete the program'. Thats really all its about...
Its just like the stepford wives, minus the computer chips. Unfortunately, its not a comedy movie, and people are really hurt very badly for life in these places.
But its probably a troll anyway. Oh well.
'll assume the original poster wasn't a troll and offer this: if your son is not an imminent threat to his own or another family member's safety, why would you consider institutionalizing him? Is he in danger at home (abuse, neglect, etc.)?
I don't care if some programs are not "bad" in the abusive sense. Any place that is not home is "bad" on many levels. Institutionalizing another human being should only be done in the most extreme circumstances, to prevent serious physical injury, and then it should only be done for the absolute minimum amount of time, under the most carefully supervised and regulated conditions, until the situation is stabilized and the imminent danger has passed.
Why don't people get this? What is so complicated about the idea that kids belong with their loved ones?
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Bears repeating.
Dammit, was supposed to be Bears rePeteing
:P
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I don't need to spend time looking up "studies" for you. I've spoken with plenty of kids that certain programs did help them. I have also spoken to kids who said they made them worse. Everyone is different, and everyone has different experiences in programs.
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That was me.
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Well, then that's your opinion based on anecdotal evidence. Don't go spouting it off as fact.
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I don't need to spend time looking up "studies" for you. I've spoken with plenty of kids that certain programs did help them. I have also spoken to kids who said they made them worse. Everyone is different, and everyone has different experiences in programs.
Even if this is the case, how do these kids and or their families know that they would not have gotten the same benefits that a programme offered them another way? It is important to remember that this industry only really exists in one part of the world. Other countries which are yet to give families the option of programmes of any kind have to find other solutions to their kids issues or to try and keep these issues in perspective. As soon as anyone is presented with what seems like an easy option it is of course tempting to take it and become convinced that it is the only choice. When this choice is not available then you are forced to do something different. Sex, drugs, step families, mental illness and shitty attitudes are not unique to American kids. Only programmes as a way of dealing with them are
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Well, then that's your opinion based on anecdotal evidence. Don't go spouting it off as fact.
I'm sorry, I didn't think I had to put IMO, or IMHO after everything I post here on fornits?!! Now that I know the rules I promise to obey! Puhleese!!!!!!!!!! :cry2:
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Well, then that's your opinion based on anecdotal evidence. Don't go spouting it off as fact.
I'm sorry, I didn't think I had to put IMO, or IMHO after everything I post here on fornits?!! Now that I know the rules I promise to obey! Puhleese!!!!!!!!!! :cry2:
I know a girl who went into program with relatively minor behavioral issues. When the program dropped her on the streets, she turned to meth. When you have nothing left to lose... When i talked to her recently, she thought program helped her. She was severly mind-fucked by what CEDU students would call "Profeets". She thinks Program "gave her the tools she needed to survive". Thank god she decided to join the army (she didn't wan't to be a homeless addict anymore). Several years later she is relatively fine. But she still thought program helped her until i started to explain some things.
I asked her exactly what tools she thought the program gave her. She didn't respond. I asked her to name one success story, somebody who did well, coming out of the program. She could not list one.
It is not too hard to deprogram those who think "program helped them". "Helped" kids are usually just repeating what they were programmed to say until you grab them by the hair and shove them violently down the rabbit hole.
So PLEASE shut the fuck up about "some good programs." It is not worth taking the risk. Parents are listening. If you don't know what you are talking about, DON'T POST!!!!! Otherwise you may end up doing more harm than good. OK.
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Sending a child away from the home can be a choice of two evils.
If the parents are drug- or alcohol-users themselves or they are mentally unable to deal with other human beings, it must be OK by the state to interfere in the interest of the child.
But it must also be clear that it is never a win-win solution. You are only choosing the less evil.
Solving the problem inside the family at the home is number one.
In Denmark, we remove childs from their home too. And we have both foster parents and RTC too. And I have to regret to say that we from time to time shut some down due to abuse of the children. It would be perfect if all employees did their job properly, but sometime not even a thorough job conversation can unveil laziness or missing abilities at the employee.
At least we try and our government monitors the area very carefully. And of course no child can be removed from the home by his parents choice only. They can not even throw the child on the street without being investigated and in some cases ordered into treatment themselves.
But it does not change the fundamental:
1) The optimal solution is solving the problem at home.
2) All other solutions are a choice of less evil.
3) Every decision to remove a child from the home has to be decided by court or by vote in a committee under the town council.
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Well, then that's your opinion based on anecdotal evidence. Don't go spouting it off as fact.
I'm sorry, I didn't think I had to put IMO, or IMHO after everything I post here on fornits?!! Now that I know the rules I promise to obey! Puhleese!!!!!!!!!! :cry2:
I know a girl who went into program with relatively minor behavioral issues. When the program dropped her on the streets, she turned to meth. When you have nothing left to lose... When i talked to her recently, she thought program helped her. She was severly mind-fucked by what CEDU students would call "Profeets". She thinks Program "gave her the tools she needed to survive". Thank god she decided to join the army (she didn't wan't to be a homeless addict anymore). Several years later she is relatively fine. But she still thought program helped her until i started to explain some things.
I asked her exactly what tools she thought the program gave her. She didn't respond. I asked her to name one success story, somebody who did well, coming out of the program. She could not list one.
It is not too hard to deprogram those who think "program helped them". "Helped" kids are usually just repeating what they were programmed to say until you grab them by the hair and shove them violently down the rabbit hole.
So PLEASE shut the fuck up about "some good programs." It is not worth taking the risk. Parents are listening. If you don't know what you are talking about, DON'T POST!!!!! Otherwise you may end up doing more harm than good. OK.
How dare you tell me to "shut the fuck up". It must be easy to tell me that over the computer. Does that make you feel powerful Psy? Please, you're pathetic.
I've always said for parents to first try to work it out from home. Especially if their kids problems are minor. However when it involves serious drug use, and they refuse to stop, or if they are in danger of hurting other family members or themselves, then they might need to be placed somewhere else. Sorry, do you think it's acceptable that other siblings, or other peoples children get hurt because someone can't control their own child? I will never say all programs are bad, because they are not. But, it's the parents responsibility to do their research.
If they don't, it's possible that their best intentions, can turn into their worst nightmares. Psy, I think you need to add cho to the end of your username. What do you think?
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(http://http://www.clint.ca/argue/argue.jpg)
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But, it's the parents responsibility to do their research.
I'll do the research for you for free!
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I don't need to spend time looking up "studies" for you. I've spoken with plenty of kids that certain programs did help them. I have also spoken to kids who said they made them worse. Everyone is different, and everyone has different experiences in programs.
Translation:
Don't bother me with facts, I already have my opinions. You're sounding more and more like them lately.
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Psy,
You do more harm than good being a pendantic, little twirp with nothing better to do than to take your anger on those around you--even those on your side. CCM Girl has always represented both sides of this argument fairly. Who do you think parents will listen to? A voice of relative reason or your immature tirades? I may be wrong, but when most parents see or hear the "f" word, they usually tune out.
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Psy,
I may be wrong, but when most parents see or hear the "f" word, they usually tune out.
New to Fornits? :roll:
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How dare you tell me to "shut the fuck up". It must be easy to tell me that over the computer. Does that make you feel powerful Psy? Please, you're pathetic.
Happens all the time around here. You've been here long enough to know that.
However when it involves serious drug use, and they refuse to stop, or if they are in danger of hurting other family members or themselves, then they might need to be placed somewhere else.
If it's serious drug use, locking them up and forcing change on them is going to do absolutely NO good and may end up doing a lot of damage. If they're in real danger of hurting themselves or someone else then the LAST place they need to be is locked up in one of these thought reform or behavior mod places. Talk about throwing gasoline on a fire!!
Sorry, do you think it's acceptable that other siblings, or other peoples children get hurt because someone can't control their own child?
I think the parent should have done their job long before things got that out of hand.
I will never say all programs are bad, because they are not.
Depends on what your definition of program is.
Psy, I think I want you to add cho to the end of your username. What do you think?
CCMgirl, I think you need to replace girl with programmie in your name. What do you think?
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Psy,
You do more harm than good being a pendantic, little twirp with nothing better to do than to take your anger on those around you--even those on your side. CCM Girl has always represented both sides of this argument fairly. Who do you think parents will listen to? A voice of relative reason or your immature tirades? I may be wrong, but when most parents see or hear the "f" word, they usually tune out.
As a parent I certainly would not listen to you, I know parents like you, refering to their kids as little twirps while they are at soccer behind their back. Go DIAF.
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I think this forum would be better served by both of you chilling the fuck out and taking this to PMs.
With a little less estrogen, if you would.
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I may be wrong, but when most parents see or hear the "f" word, they usually tune out.
:rofl: Yes, you are wrong.
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I think this forum would be better served by both of you chilling the fuck out and taking this to PMs.
With a little less estrogen, if you would.
I think it's served quite well as is. Makes it easier to follow the illogical conclusions of programmies. Quit trying to moderate the fucking forum. It ain't your job.
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Parents: Observe closely. This is what happens to victims of programs. They develop immediate, violent reactions to anyone making requests of them, because they've become unable to discern requests from the sort of do-it-or-else commands given them in the programs. This is one of the many, many negative results of this sort of mindfucking.
Previous Guest: It was a statement of opinion and a simple suggestion, nothing more. If I really had mod powers here, I'd use them.
To continue the trend, I also have a simple suggestion for you.
(http://http://www.jasoco.net/data/files/images/Chill%20Pill.png)
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Oh please. I just got sick of every time someone posts something you don't find relevant you either tell them to go away, to ignore the ST people or take it to PMs. What violent reaction did I have? You're one of the most krass, abrasive people here. I agree with most of what you say, but you're an asshole. Thank god you don't have mod privvies. OPEN FORUM.....say whatever the fuck you want, however the fuck you want to say it, as evidenced by the tolerance of some of your more insensitive, argumentative for the sole sake of being argumentative posts and tirades. It's a little more understandable with those of us who actually have been subjected to the abusive practices of these places but what's your excuse? It seems to be you're a dick just for the sake of being a dick. But, hey, it takes all kinds...right?
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And these will do much better.
(http://http://www.pharmacyseek.com/images/meds/oxycontin.jpg)
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How dare you tell me to "shut the fuck up". It must be easy to tell me that over the computer. Does that make you feel powerful Psy? Please, you're pathetic.
Happens all the time around here. You've been here long enough to know that.
However when it involves serious drug use, and they refuse to stop, or if they are in danger of hurting other family members or themselves, then they might need to be placed somewhere else.
If it's serious drug use, locking them up and forcing change on them is going to do absolutely NO good and may end up doing a lot of damage. If they're in real danger of hurting themselves or someone else then the LAST place they need to be is locked up in one of these thought reform or behavior mod places. Talk about throwing gasoline on a fire!!
Sorry, do you think it's acceptable that other siblings, or other peoples children get hurt because someone can't control their own child?
I think the parent should have done their job long before things got that out of hand.
I will never say all programs are bad, because they are not.
Depends on what your definition of program is.
Psy, I think I want you to add cho to the end of your username. What do you think?
CCMgirl, I think I want you to replace girl with programmie in your name. What do you think?
I think we all know that I am against abusive programs, come on! But, you sound so selfish when you state that it's basically it's okay for a kid that has a serious drug problem to run wild. Oh who cares if he gets in a serious car accident because he's loaded, and kills people on the road who had nothing to do with him, or his life, until he took theirs. Taking that attitude is wrong on so many levels I don't even know where to begin.
I am not what you'd call a "programmie", and I am not offended when people swear. I'm use to it, and to be totally honest I am sure I swear on a daily basis. But, what I don't do on a daily basis is tell people to shut the fuck up. I know Psycho wouldn't dare step up to my face and tell me that. So, why do it over the internet?
Anyway, I am not upset.....or angry. So, I don't need to take any pills. Some of other people here might though!
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That was me!
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All right, it's ::soapbox:: time.
What's my excuse? I'm here only on one, simple principle: This shit needs to stop. I don't think anyone needs first-hand experience to be against child abuse.
THAT is why I try to stop all the senseless kvetch sessions and hopeless arguments that keep recurring on this board (especially when it's Fornits regulars attacking each other- great way to encourage newcomers to join, ladies), and why I hope the person who keeps on whining about "Sue-Sue" and "Ca-Ca" would just shut the fuck up and stop clogging the board with that stupid cunt's troll nonsense. You might feel like you've all won something by driving off some troll or outarguing some programmie twit, but you've won nothing at all; they're still open for business.
THAT is why I tell anyone who's been abused in one of these hellholes to use their experiences to stop it from happening to anyone else. This means lawyers, this means campaigns, this means getting in contact with parents about to make horrible decisions, pulling them aside, and saying "Don't do it. It's not going to end well. Here's proof."
Make no mistake, I'm an asshole of the highest caliber. Forget about me. Although I've used a number of personas on this board, I'm fundamentally nobody. I control nothing on Fornits, and I most assuredly never will. Forget about yourself, if possible; what happened to you was absolute horror but you're an adult now and no one can do anything like that to you ever again. It's not about you or me- it's about the kids in there right this fucking instant who are being tortured by complete sadists because people are stupid enough to believe that this constitutes some sort of actual treatment.
You want to make the nightmares stop?
Stop the nightmare from happening to some other kid.
That's my last post on this thread; you can have the final word.
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Oh please. I just got sick of every time someone posts something you don't find relevant you either tell them to go away, to ignore the ST people or take it to PMs. What violent reaction did I have? You're one of the most krass, abrasive people here. I agree with most of what you say, but you're an asshole. Thank god you don't have mod privvies. OPEN FORUM.....say whatever the fuck you want, however the fuck you want to say it, as evidenced by the tolerance of some of your more insensitive, argumentative for the sole sake of being argumentative posts and tirades. It's a little more understandable with those of us who actually have been subjected to the abusive practices of these places but what's your excuse? It seems to be you're a dick just for the sake of being a dick. But, hey, it takes all kinds...right?
Hey, Psy, helloooooo.............take a bite of the chill pill, and take a deep breath. You're spinning out of control buddy. People like you can't handle people like me who have the maturity to see both sides of the coin. I'm so far from being "programmed". Now, you're spatting off names? I'm sorry to break it to you, but your losing temper and going off the deep end. Reel yourself in, because calling us all names ain't going to help this cause whatsoever.
I'm real sorry if what you experienced made you a more confused, and an angrier person. I do feel for you, and I would be lying if I said I didn't carry a chip on my shoulder for years afterward too.
There are kids that are suffering in programs right now, who have nobody to vent to. This is why we are all here, to hopefully make a difference. (atleast the majority of us) So, with that said......and to all of you other people on here who think I am a trader.....sorry but I am not. I encourage you to PM me, or not? Whatever makes you happy! But, people don't like to read a bunch of back and forth riff-raff, tit for tat kind of bullshit. MGDP is right if you need to keep going off on me PM me.
Peace!
Miranda
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Well, then that's your opinion based on anecdotal evidence. Don't go spouting it off as fact.
I'm sorry, I didn't think I had to put IMO, or IMHO after everything I post here on fornits?!! Now that I know the rules I promise to obey! Puhleese!!!!!!!!!!
I know a girl who went into program with relatively minor behavioral issues. When the program dropped her on the streets, she turned to meth. When you have nothing left to lose... When i talked to her recently, she thought program helped her. She was severly mind-fucked by what CEDU students would call "Profeets". She thinks Program "gave her the tools she needed to survive". Thank god she decided to join the army (she didn't wan't to be a homeless addict anymore). Several years later she is relatively fine. But she still thought program helped her until i started to explain some things.
I asked her exactly what tools she thought the program gave her. She didn't respond. I asked her to name one success story, somebody who did well, coming out of the program. She could not list one.
It is not too hard to deprogram those who think "program helped them". "Helped" kids are usually just repeating what they were programmed to say until you grab them by the hair and shove them violently down the rabbit hole.
So PLEASE shut the fuck up about "some good programs." It is not worth taking the risk. Parents are listening. If you don't know what you are talking about, DON'T POST!!!!! Otherwise you may end up doing more harm than good. OK.
How dare you tell me to "shut the fuck up". It must be easy to tell me that over the computer. Does that make you feel powerful Psy? Please, you're pathetic.
I've always said for parents to first try to work it out from home. Especially if their kids problems are minor. However when it involves serious drug use, and they refuse to stop, or if they are in danger of hurting other family members or themselves, then they might need to be placed somewhere else. Sorry, do you think it's acceptable that other siblings, or other peoples children get hurt because someone can't control their own child? I will never say all programs are bad, because they are not. But, it's the parents responsibility to do their research.
If they don't, it's possible that their best intentions, can turn into their worst nightmares. Psy, I think I want you to add cho to the end of your username. What do you think?
Maybe i was a little bit terse and if i offended you deeply i apologize. I was not aware such languge was considered off limits on this forum, i shall make more of an effort to censor myself in the future lest I offend the sensibilities of the more sensitive individuals on the board. :cry2: me a river.
However that was not the point of my response. Which you avoided. The girl i spoke of had no drug issues whatsoever prior to program. She was a virgin, had never drank, did not smoke, did not do drugs etc. She was innocent. Program destroyed her and she thought it "gave her the tools to suceed". She was the rule, rather than the exception.
Maybe i was a little emotional since i just found about what happened to her 10 mins prior to posting. She was my good friend, who i knew personally, who i went through the brainwashing with, who i was partnered to. I saw her with my own eyes slowly lose her will to resist, and become hollow. They overwrote her own free will with their instructions of loyalty and feel-good slogans of program praise. They trained her to have an artificial attachment to her councelor by breaking her down in the most humiliating ways.
I know you're against abusive programs, but you have to realize that if, and until, programs are properly regulated, they pose an unacceptable risk. In other words, since the industry is unregulated, there ARE NO GOOD PROGRAMS!!!!! If you can't make sure a program is good, there are none. It is not worth the risk.
I posted a serious, even-handed response to the first post, playing the devil's advocate, hoping others would come in and explain why alternatives to programs are preferable. Telling a parent, basically, "go for it", was not what i was expecting. You really want a parent doing research on this? Go type in "troubled teen" in google and see whose recommendations you find? All roads lead to hell. I could go into the technical reasons why but it would bore you.
MGDP has a point, as abrasive as he can be, that arguments and bickering is unproductive. I was not expecting such a reaction (rightly or wrongly) from you and If you wished to express your dissatisfaction you should have PMed me and i might have even edited the post.
It is not my desire to start or continue flames. So please, if you wish to take this outside, PM me.
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Oh please. I just got sick of every time someone posts something you don't find relevant you either tell them to go away, to ignore the ST people or take it to PMs. What violent reaction did I have? You're one of the most krass, abrasive people here. I agree with most of what you say, but you're an asshole. Thank god you don't have mod privvies. OPEN FORUM.....say whatever the fuck you want, however the fuck you want to say it, as evidenced by the tolerance of some of your more insensitive, argumentative for the sole sake of being argumentative posts and tirades. It's a little more understandable with those of us who actually have been subjected to the abusive practices of these places but what's your excuse? It seems to be you're a dick just for the sake of being a dick. But, hey, it takes all kinds...right?
Hey, Psy, helloooooo.............take a bite of the chill pill, and take a deep breath. You're spinning out of control buddy. People like you can't handle people like me who have the maturity to see both sides of the coin. I'm so far from being "programmed". Now, you're spatting off names? I'm sorry to break it to you, but your losing temper and going off the deep end. Reel yourself in, because calling us all names ain't going to help this cause whatsoever.
I'm real sorry if what you experienced made you a more confused, and an angrier person. I do feel for you, and I would be lying if I said I didn't carry a chip on my shoulder for years afterward too.
There are kids that are suffering in programs right now, who have nobody to vent to. This is why we are all here, to hopefully make a difference. (atleast the majority of us) So, with that said......and to all of you other people on here who think I am a trader.....sorry but I am not. I encourage you to PM me, or not? Whatever makes you happy! But, people don't like to read a bunch of back and forth riff-raff, tit for tat kind of bullshit. MGDP is right if I want you to keep going off on me PM me.
Peace!
Miranda
I didn't post that. Unless i have something illegal to suggest (in which case my IP will change as well), i post under my username.
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I think the problem here is that CCM Girl said "I'm sure there are some good programs out there". I totally understand the appropriately negative reactions this comment got. It is not enough to say that you are "sure" there are "some" good programs out there unless you can name them and explain why they are good. That is what it is all about. Your previous posts seem to be anti-program so you seem to be back-peddling with the above comment. Again, unless you KNOW of a SPECIFIC program that is "good" and can say WHY it is good you should not be putting y our seal of approval on the concept. It makes you just like all those parents out there who ASSUME the programs their friends, neighbors and even family send their kids off to must be OK. Seems to me one of the main purposes of this forum is to debunk such assumptions and educate people.
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I don't need to spend time looking up "studies" for you. I've spoken with plenty of kids that certain programs did help them. I have also spoken to kids who said they made them worse. Everyone is different, and everyone has different experiences in programs.
Exactly. Everyone is different and that is why a one-size-fits all, tough love approach is no alternative to a real diagnosis and treatment plan. If you can't come up with a valid diagnosis, then no placement is warranted.
Tough love programs change outward behavior while driving the real issues deeply inside and hiding them for fear of punishment or humiliation. That is hardly a cure.
Those survivors who come out of a program and cry foul are the healthy ones. They see abuse for what it is. They have a sense of fairness and justice that is still intact.
Those kids who claim they were helped are the real losers. They have accepted a twisted, cult-like view of the world in which they accept the blame for the abuse and injustices others have inflicted upon them.
A boy named John (alias) goes to see a movie with two friends. John's father has set a time and place to pick the kids up and drive them home. The boys are there. The father does not show up at the appointed time. John calls his Dad and the Dad begins the drive to the meeting place. Meanwhile, the town's curfew time passes. Two older kids enter the scene and behave in a disorderly way. The proprietor calls the police. The police apprehend all five youth. At John's hearing, his father admits to falling asleep in front of the TV. It is clearly established that John and his friends were not disorderly. Yet, the Judge states it was John's responsibility to obey the curfew and imposes probation on the boy. He says John should have called and reminded his father to pick him up before the curfew. John, young and confused, agrees that perhaps he should have called to make sure his dad would not forget. Does anyone else see how twisted that is? The boy is blamed for the shortcomings of the parent because the boy did not ensure the parent did the right thing? The boy buys this 'logic.'
This is the mindset of the program. They believe that whatever happens to the kid are the results of the kid's choices. Kids who accept this mindset and say the program helped them will never be able to live up to their own standards. They may be well behaved and successful, but they will forever nurture feelings of inadequacy.
There are Christians who feel this way. They believe we are all sinners and therefore must repent. We were born of sin, after all. God has imposed a set of rules no human can follow. Gee, that was our fault, I suppose? So we should all feel bad about our inadequate, sinning selves and throw ourselves at the mercy of the higher power; be that God or the Program. This is simply a slave mentality. It's sick. It is even more sick when these 'Christians' run programs and force others to think this way.
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I think the problem here is that CCM Girl said "I'm sure there are some good programs out there". I totally understand the appropriately negative reactions this comment got. It is not enough to say that you are "sure" there are "some" good programs out there unless you can name them and explain why they are good. That is what it is all about. Your previous posts seem to be anti-program so you seem to be back-peddling with the above comment. Again, unless you KNOW of a SPECIFIC program that is "good" and can say WHY it is good you should not be putting y our seal of approval on the concept. It makes you just like all those parents out there who ASSUME the programs their friends, neighbors and even family send their kids off to must be OK. Seems to me one of the main purposes of this forum is to debunk such assumptions and educate people.
Well, you're no better, if it is your attempt to scare the hell out of parents who have children with serious issues to keep them at home, and not find treatment for them at all. Don't you see you're no better then programs that say to parents that their child is going to end up dead, or in jail, unless you put them in our school.
I understand what you are getting at, but I have said over and over for parents to investigate. To really do their homework, because once again their intentions although they may be good, can turn into a real nightmare.
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Come on CCM Girl; you are in intelligent young lady and you know I did not in any way say parents should keep children with "serious issues:" home and not find treatment for them. I don't equate "treatment" with "programs". You made a very erroneous assumption about what I meant; nowhere it my post did I actually say or imply this at all.
You said that you are "sure" there are some "good programs" out there. Ok, fair enough. So how did you come to be "sure"? Which programs and in what way are they good? Unless you can be specific you are only making assumptions. On another thread a person mentioned a good "program" called Rock Point in the New England somewhere. He went there and lived it. It was good because it did not include a bunch of programmie crap and it taught him real life skills. I don't recall any negative flak over this.So, once again, if you are "sure" there are "good programs" out there, what are they and why are they good? Unless you can do this, saying you are sure there are good programs out there is just a mindless blanket endorsement of the concept.
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Come on CCM Girl; you are in intelligent young lady and you know I did not in any way say parents should keep children with "serious issues:" home and not find treatment for them. I don't equate "treatment" with "programs". You made a very erroneous assumption about what I meant; nowhere it my post did I actually say or imply this at all.
You said that you are "sure" there are some "good programs" out there. Ok, fair enough. So how did you come to be "sure"? Which programs and in what way are they good? Unless you can be specific you are only making assumptions. On another thread a person mentioned a good "program" called Rock Point in the New England somewhere. He went there and lived it. It was good because it did not include a bunch of programmie crap and it taught him real life skills. I don't recall any negative flak over this.So, once again, if you are "sure" there are "good programs" out there, what are they and why are they good? Unless you can do this, saying you are sure there are good programs out there is just a mindless blanket endorsement of the concept.
I am sure because if 2 outta 3 programs that I attended were good, and I found them helpful........then I base it on numbers. I think what makes a good school/program is a system with rules that make sense, and are consistant, that coupled with lots of therapy, and staff that are trained properly on how to deal with kids with problems. You need some rules just to keep order. But, it shouldn't be about breaking a youths spirit.
Last time I checked I didn't apply for an Ed Con position? All I can do is base what I have to say on my experiences. I'm not about to travel around the country and go through each and every school so I can refer parents to them. That's not my job.
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I Your previous posts seem to be anti-program so you seem to be back-peddling with the above comment. Again, unless you KNOW of a SPECIFIC program that is "good" and can say WHY it is good you should not be putting y our seal of approval on the concept. It makes you just like all those parents out there who ASSUME the programs their friends, neighbors and even family send their kids off to must be OK. Seems to me one of the main purposes of this forum is to debunk such assumptions and educate people.
I though the main purpose of the forum was to discuss programmes in an uncensored environment. Whoever said that anyone has to have one simplistic view which they continually pedal anyway? CCM girl has not convinced me that there is any such thing as a good programme but why should she be forced to justify her postion by being a walking advertisement for a specific place? If she did that she would be accused of being a troll! :roll:
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I Your previous posts seem to be anti-program so you seem to be back-peddling with the above comment. Again, unless you KNOW of a SPECIFIC program that is "good" and can say WHY it is good you should not be putting y our seal of approval on the concept. It makes you just like all those parents out there who ASSUME the programs their friends, neighbors and even family send their kids off to must be OK. Seems to me one of the main purposes of this forum is to debunk such assumptions and educate people.
I though the main purpose of the forum was to discuss programmes in an uncensored environment. Whoever said that anyone has to have one simplistic view which they continually pedal anyway? CCM girl has not convinced me that there is any such thing as a good programme but why should she be forced to justify her postion by being a walking advertisement for a specific place? If she did that she would be accused of being a troll! :roll:
Thanks for pointing this out Oz girl! You have a good idea of who I am as a person. We were able to talk on the phone a few months back when your neice was having some problems at home. You know that I am not pro programs. Especially in her case, which was so similar to mine. Except for the fact my parents did go through with sending me away at the age of 12.
It's hard when parents have lots of money, because they can pay to keep their child away from the home. A lot of times it does have to do with the relationships between the step-parent and the child. BTW, I hope M is doing well. I hope she is hanging in there with the step-monster.
I don't like to recommend programs unless parents are dead set in sending their kids away, and are going to do so no matter what. I would rather they work it out from home.
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CCM girl seems more sensible than most. If she says she had good and positive experiences at some programs then why not believe her. She doesn't seem to have any hidden agenda here. Frankly, I'm not sure why she wastes her time here.
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CCM girl seems more sensible than most. If she says she had good and positive experiences at some programs then why not believe her. She doesn't seem to have any hidden agenda here. Frankly, I'm not sure why she wastes her time here.
There are lessor of evils. Which doesn't = good.
The questions is- would CCM have prefered a program over staying home? Had her parents been willing and dedicated to work things out?
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My family was so far gone, that unforunately I couldn't have seen staying at home and working it out. But, my situation was pretty unique. My parents were divorced by the time I was 4. My Dad who was much older then I (53 when I was born), remarried shortly after to a woman who was very wicked and mean, and hated me from day 1. My Mother was an alcoholic who lived less then a mile from me and couldn't bear to see me, she always said it was too painful. I think from the time I was 5 to 11 she saw me 3 or 4 times? She wasn't able to come to much of my brothers funeral even. She showed up at the cemetary at the last minute. I'm guessing she was there for 10 minutes? Just in time to see the coffin go into the ground.
Some parents aren't meant to be parents I suppose. I needed to be in some kind of theraputic program. I was a pretty screwed up little girl. What I will never understand is why, if they didn't want me......why did they keep me for so long in these really strict girl schools that didn't allow me to enjoy some of my teenage years? That part, really confused me.....and angered me. It seemed like it was always made to be my fault why I was not going home. It took me a long time to figure out I wasn't ever going to go home because they didn't want me to come home.
The past is the past though. Mom died a few years ago, and my Dad is 86 and I am enjoying what time we have left together. My Step-Mom died 6 years ago allowing our family to get back together. So, it is what it is.
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Was living with relatives not an option?
My point was, would any kid choose a program over living at home, IF their parent(s) were willing to pull their head out, and figure out how to be a parent and have a decent r'ship with them?
Isn't it ever kid's dream to wake up one morning to a real parent?
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Lots of kids go to sleep every night wishing they'd wake up the next morning to find their parents lying motionless in bed, dead of simultaneous heart attacks.
Similarly a lot of kids in hellholes prefer the sadistic whims of the professional abusers to the sadistic whims of their parents.
Don't you wish I was being sarcastic?
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Was living with relatives not an option?
My point was, would any kid choose a program over living at home, IF their parent(s) were willing to pull their head out, and figure out how to be a parent and have a decent r'ship with them?
Isn't it ever kid's dream to wake up one morning to a real parent?
The only relative that wanted to take me was my Aunt and Uncle. My Aunt was my Mom's only sister, and they wanted to take me when I was 9 because they could see how I needed a real family. My Dad and Step-Mom wouldn't allow this, I am not sure why? Anyway, after I got sent away at the age of 12 she wrote me at school, and would send me birthday checks that never got cashed. She thought because she never heard from me, that I was fine, and didn't want to talk to her. Which in reality, I needed her more then ever.
Fast forward 4 years when I ran away from Cross Creek Manor, and was living on my own, she somehow tracked me down. I say somehow because I didn't have a phone at the place I was living, we were so poor we used the pay phone out by the community pool, and her and my Dad weren't on speaking terms. Anyway, that's where I received a call from her, and she wanted me to come out for Christmas. I did, and they asked me if I wanted to move in with them, and finish my school. I said yes. It was hard at first. I wasn't used to being in a family that was so loving. I remember the first fight we had, I cried and cried, I asked them if they wanted me to leave? They were like, no silly! As part of a family, you work it out. We did, and they became my Mom and Dad. My cousins became my brother and sisters, and the rest is history!
The only problem that I face now is dividing my time equally between them, and my Father over the holidays. Nice problem to finally have. I went from not being wanted, to being very much wanted.
To answer your question Deborah....yes, I would've rather avoided these programs and gone to live with my Aunt and Uncle. However, it was never told to me until I was living with them at age 17 that they wanted me at age 9 to come live with them. I would've turned out very differently had I been allowed to do so. I am a great person now, but I was very screwed up from everything I went through as a teen. Sometimes, things come back to haunt me. But, I feel that from my life experiences that I do have I am able to relate to kids very well. I have a little of everything in my past, and I wish that I could be there for kids whose parents don't want them.
If I had it my way, I would have some type of group home. My husband, and I don't see eye to eye on that. I want to foster kids, and my husband just wants our own. It's a lot of work, and it changes your life forever. I am understanding of where he stands. I wish I could be those kids family whose parents don't want them. I guess in a way I feel that would be the only positive thing that could come from my whole messy life.
I hope I answered your question Deborah. My parents were not easily fixable. They were shitty parents from day one putting their lives before mine. It's not as if we had a rocky couple months, it was doomed from the very beginning I'm afraid.
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Duh, that was me!