Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => World Wide Association of Specialty Programs and Schools (WWASPS) => Topic started by: Anonymous on August 23, 2006, 04:07:01 PM
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Odyssey Transport was recently filmed for an upcoming Dr. Phil Show on transporting teens. Dr. Phil's staff located Odyssey Transport through PURE's recommended Escort/Transport list.
http://www.caica.org (http://www.caica.org)
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Odyssey Transport was recently filmed for an upcoming Dr. Phil Show on transporting teens. Dr. Phil's staff located Odyssey Transport through PURE's recommended Escort/Transport list.
http://www.caica.org (http://www.caica.org)
When is this show going to air? Would be nice to know what program the kid was transported into.
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"CAICA knows the importance of warning parents against
abusive programs.
We also realize parents need options. P.U.R.E. gives parents
options and offers help - see below (click here)"
You two sure are a pair ain't ya? Couple of sick, greedy fucks feeding off of other people's misery. :flame: ::both:: ::fuckoff:: :flame:
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Would be nice to at least have to go to the Ca-Ca site to read this shit.
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::noway:: ::noway:: ::noway:: ::noway::
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Odyssey Transport was recently filmed for an upcoming Dr. Phil Show on transporting teens. Dr. Phil's staff located Odyssey Transport through PURE's recommended Escort/Transport list.
http://www.caica.org (http://www.caica.org)
Goodie.
Dr. Philip McGraw is cashing in on mentally tormenting children and making them cry for the cameras and saying its good for them and therapetuic bla bla bla.
Im really about to just leave this country. No point in trying to fix a sinking ship if the crew's too busy drilling holes to listen to sanity.
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Odyssey Transport was recently filmed for an upcoming Dr. Phil Show on transporting teens. Dr. Phil's staff located Odyssey Transport through PURE's recommended Escort/Transport list.
http://www.caica.org (http://www.caica.org)
And you're proud of this?
Bitch.
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Odyssey is a good transport company. Non-abusive and compassionate.
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When does the show air? I see nothing on the website.
Kind compassionate transports? What the H does that mean? No brawls on the front yard? The kid can wear shoes? No pepper spray or plastic handcuff ties? No kiddie lock doors and windows? Can the kid just say Hell No, I won't Go and stay home?
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Odyssey is a good transport company. Non-abusive and compassionate.
Look, what don't you get about TBS and RTCs being fucked up from the word go? There is no safe behavior modification. Period. No "good" transport company.
Peddle your fucking shit elsewhere you pathetic, greedy, attention whoring motherfucker! ::fuckoff::
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Odyssey is a good transport company. Non-abusive and compassionate.
What and it does this out of the goodness of it's heart does it? does not make a cent out of the family in turmoil? Does it refuse to escort to some schools because they have a record of abuse? Does it make sure that the wilderness programme has not deaths against its name? does it insist the kid be given forewarning that it is coming and arrive when the kids is awake and incotrol of him or herself? Does it tell the kid the whole truthh about whether she will be going home or to boarding school after the "willderness treck". If a kid just refuses to go at all does it not use any force at all?
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So CAICA is an advocacy org. that advocates for safe programs and transport companies? Doesn't she know the industry isn't regulated and that there are no safe programs or transport companies? Why isn't she helping parents find good therapists or community based services? All research shows that multi-systemic therapy is the best. PURE is run by a mother who had a troubled teen? How does that make her an expert? That's a dangerous mindset. Parents need professionals. Trained behavioral healthcare experts to guide them. These programs who pay kick backs should be banned. That's a direct conflict of interest. Legitmate behavior healthcare organizations do not pay finder's fees. These referral companies are in this business to make money. If they weren't, they wouldn't take kick backs in the first place, would they? They wouldn't promote only programs who pay finder's fees. CAICA thinks WWAPS is bad? What is the difference between them and her? She refers to PURE or works for them? That's never been clarified. Which is it? And what programs does PURE refer to? CAICA thinks WWASPS promoters should list their programs? How about PURE? Seems Isabelle and SUE should put their money where their mouth is. What are they afraid of? Someone might find out what programs pay finder's fees and get into the business themselves?
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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Yup. Dead on.
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^^above was me too.
And what programs does PURE refer to?
We've been asking that question for a long, long time. Never have gotten an answer. They can come here and do their little hit and run insults or links to their sites but can't seem to handle a few simple questions.
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Well, nobody reads CA-CA, so IZZY has to post her shit here, if she wants it to be seen and read.
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Odyssey Transport was recently filmed for an upcoming Dr. Phil Show on transporting teens. Dr. Phil's staff located Odyssey Transport through PURE's recommended Escort/Transport list.
http://www.caica.org (http://www.caica.org)
wtf?? hOW SICKENING IS THIS?? Transport companies (unregulated industry) which will take kids to yet another a TBS, etc (another unregualted industry). This is so so so sickening!!
Who is this moron??
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Odyssey is a good transport company. Non-abusive and compassionate.
says who? Themselves ? idiot IZ? Its unregualted- thus dangerous, side-stepping the bigger issue, the USE OF ESCORTS PERIOD!!
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And who do you propose is going to take a kid who is absolutely and completely out of control, who the parents cannot handle, who is heavy into drugs and is a danger to him or herself? There are times when this is necessary, as much as any and all of us would like to think otherwise.
It's time to be realistic about this stuff and rather than criticize everyone and everything find the safest and the best. The kids are sadly going to be sent away, it's just a sickening fact of life. So why not at least find people who are going to make it easier on them.
In a perfect world there would be no programs and there would be no transports. Unfortunately I haven't found that perfect world yet. So for now I think it's best we use some common sense and try to help as much as we can. If that means finding safer programs and safer escorts then maybe that's what needs to happen.
It's not a good situation. Best case scenario - all parents can handle their kids, all families are happy - but be real. Some kids never get the help they need and end up drug addicted the rest of their lives. That's not the answer either. There has to be some in-between. If the place is safe with good people it's sometimes a whole lot better than what the kids have at home. Sad as that is.
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"CAICA knows the importance of warning parents against
abusive programs.
We also realize parents need options. P.U.R.E. gives parents
options and offers help - see below (click here)"
You two sure are a pair ain't ya? Couple of sick, greedy fucks feeding off of other people's misery. :flame: ::both:: ::fuckoff:: :flame:
http://cafety.org/index.php?option=com_ ... &Itemid=35 (http://cafety.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=357&Itemid=35)
OH YEA? Lovin' the air of authority! Legitimacy, knowledge drawn from where exactly?
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Drawn from the stop at the bank to make a DEPOSIT, that's where.
And the love of IZZY hearing herself TALK.
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Well, nobody reads CA-CA, so IZZY has to post her shit here, if she wants it to be seen and read.
:tup: :tup:
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And who do you propose is going to take a kid who is absolutely and completely out of control, who the parents cannot handle, who is heavy into drugs and is a danger to him or herself? There are times when this is necessary, as much as any and all of us would like to think otherwise.
No, there aren't.
It's time to be realistic about this stuff and rather than criticize everyone and everything find the safest and the best. The kids are sadly going to be sent away, it's just a sickening fact of life. So why not at least find people who are going to make it easier on them.
Why not address the root of the problem? Parents!!! Why do the kids have to be sent away for the parents fuck ups?
In a perfect world there would be no programs and there would be no transports. Unfortunately I haven't found that perfect world yet. So for now I think it's best we use some common sense and try to help as much as we can. If that means finding safer programs and safer escorts then maybe that's what needs to happen.
But it's not.
It's not a good situation. Best case scenario - all parents can handle their kids, all families are happy - but be real. Some kids never get the help they need and end up drug addicted the rest of their lives. That's not the answer either. There has to be some in-between. If the place is safe with good people it's sometimes a whole lot better than what the kids have at home. Sad as that is.
No, there really doesn't. The only kids that need to be removed from the home are the ones that are in IMMINENT danger of hurting themselves or others. IMMINENT. That's an unbelievably minute amount.
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And even then, they need to go to state-run facilities, not private ones.
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And even then, they need to go to state-run facilities, not private ones.
Absolutely! :tup:
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And who do you propose is going to take a kid who is absolutely and completely out of control, who the parents cannot handle, who is heavy into drugs and is a danger to him or herself? There are times when this is necessary, as much as any and all of us would like to think otherwise.
In a perfect world there would be no programs and there would be no transports. Unfortunately I haven't found that perfect world yet. So for now I think it's best we use some common sense and try to help as much as we can.
kid out of control may be sent to REGULATED RTC's
By programs do you differentiate regulated from unreg ones?
In perfect world there would be no need for institutionalization of youth, naturally. However, since, at this time our system is substancially and near completely flawed (ie. see this issue, see Hurrcane Katrina, see retirement homes, prisons, the drug war, etc)- the desired, more effective, community based alternatives are often not available. Given our societies general shift toward ignoring domestic crisis's, absence of community based care & mental health care parity- regulated and accredited residential treatment are the proper alternative. Unreg. facilities are dangerous!
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Regulated facilities are dangerous too.
It all boils down to the methods employed.
Do you want BM... or therapy?
Because the former is what you get in a program.
I realize the difficulty, but take that $100,000, search out a highly effective therapist, one who will modify YOUR behavior
so your kid can resume being a kid.
Spend a generous portion on helping your kid find his/her passion.
Experiment until you find that thing that rekindles hope and
pleasure.
The absolute best therapy in the world is to show your kid that
you won't bail when the going gets tough, and that you're willing
to cop to your own crap that certainly contributed to the 'family'
problem.
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Bingo!! :nworthy:
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In a perfect world there would be no programs and there would be no transports. Unfortunately I haven't found that perfect world yet. So for now I think it's best we use some common sense and try to help as much as we can. If that means finding safer programs and safer escorts then maybe that's what needs to happen.quote]
Perhaps you could go to England,Europe, anywhere in latin America, Australia, New Zealand or Asia as far as i am aware none of these places have programmes. (Except the places that have American run programmes for American kids) The very small percentage of the Adolescent population whose mental illnesses are severe enough to require hospitilisation recieve as humane treatment as possible and therefore dont get forcibly taken in a private patty wagon.
Naughty kids are handled by their family, community and occasionally the criminal justice system. In most of these places a kid who hands a another kid a joint is not a trafficer. 17 year olds having sex with their 14 year old partners dont have to go to "sex offender programmes".
kids who are at boarding school go home for holidays and communicate with their parents uncensored. Food is not a punishment or a reward. Outdoor activities really are recreational not punitive.
Some of these places still have kids who grow up to be adult criminals but the adult crime, death, addiction rates are not that different to the US.
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Regulated facilities are dangerous too.
Not anywhere nearly as dangerous as unregulated/unaccredited facilities. Not even close, in fact.
The methods used at unreg. BM facilities are entirely different that facilities that are regulated & accredited. Dangerous as far as restraints and variable quality of different staff, but access to advocates makes a rather large difference. So does the obligatory notification of right of youth as patients.
Not trying to measure the badness of bade facilities, but as far the degree of variance in terms of types of tx seen at regulated vs unregulated facilities differ a great deal in terms of what is seen as legitimate therpeutic, bm or combo bm/therapuetic practices.
Given that youth have acess to advocates at regulated RTC's and other strandard protocol, unreg. facilities should be a non-option.
If institutionalization is neccesary, given this non-ideal situation parents usually find themselves in, regulated RTC's make a heck of a lot more sense.
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BM is dangerous, whether it's in a regulated facility or otherwise.
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And who do you propose is going to take a kid who is absolutely and completely out of control, who the parents cannot handle, who is heavy into drugs and is a danger to him or herself? There are times when this is necessary, as much as any and all of us would like to think otherwise.
It's time to be realistic about this stuff and rather than criticize everyone and everything find the safest and the best. The kids are sadly going to be sent away, it's just a sickening fact of life. So why not at least find people who are going to make it easier on them.
In a perfect world there would be no programs and there would be no transports. Unfortunately I haven't found that perfect world yet. So for now I think it's best we use some common sense and try to help as much as we can. If that means finding safer programs and safer escorts then maybe that's what needs to happen.
It's not a good situation. Best case scenario - all parents can handle their kids, all families are happy - but be real. Some kids never get the help they need and end up drug addicted the rest of their lives. That's not the answer either. There has to be some in-between. If the place is safe with good people it's sometimes a whole lot better than what the kids have at home. Sad as that is.
Ok let's be just as realistic as you propose. First off, the vast majority of kids that are sent away are 1) not so far out of control 2) very highly unlikely to be drug addicted the rest of their lives, as more often than not, they are minor drug users that will mature with age and be able to stop on their own. Go ahead and say I'm wrong, since I'm sure you know all too well. I was sent to one of these programs....it failed....miserably....and in fact made any drug use more extensive as a result of the PTSD caused by the experience. Only because of maturity and personal motivation did I stop......but was still never an addict....nor will I be for the rest of my life.
As far as these programs being "safer than what the kids have at home"......well then the kids shouldn't be getting sent away...the parents should be getting locked up. I find it appaling that anyone looking out for the best interest of a child would say that these places are in any way helpful. It's a load of mindfucked bullshit. These places do NO GOOD.
As far as "these kids are sadly going to be sent away"....the only reason this is actually a given at this point is because of money hungry "educational consultants" or "therapists" that get paid off this shit to promote the programs and the escort services.....and we can't forget the select group of parents that actually know what they're getting into and send their kids willingly.....again these fuckers should be locked up.
Yet, the vast majority of parents are conned by consultants, therapists, and schools, as well as the programs themselves that these places are safe and truly in the best interest of their child. If these same parents all knew the truth behind the lies they would likely never do the same. Putting this once again (Geraldo and Maury in the 80's and 90's) on national television is just more advertising for an industry already turning profit in the millions.
It's a sad sad day when those looking out for our children....our future....are so blinded by stupidity and greed. Fuck PURE Fuck CAICA......you should all burn in hell
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Well said Anon. It's bullshit to justify the referral business as something that is "sadly" needed or necessary when everybody knows the real reason these programs exist is because they are money-makers. Huge profit margins. 10 minute conversation with a parent to sell them their brand of programs and KA CHING.
The least PURE CA CA could do is stop assuming others are as stupid as they are.
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BM is dangerous, whether it's in a regulated facility or otherwise.
BM is not inherently dangerous, innappropraitely used it is.
You can modify someone's behavior by using appropraite and benign BM techniques... then there are the blatanly harmful ones.
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BM is not inherently dangerous, innappropraitely used it is.
You can modify someone's behavior by using appropraite and benign BM techniques... then there are the blatanly harmful ones.
Maybe, but how is that better than real therapy?
I remember a classic example in a BM class I took in college, where an alarm-type device is used to treat bed-wetting in children. The thing wakes them up when it...starts to get wet...the idea being they can get out of bed and do the appropriate thing in the appropriate place.
But suppose little Susie wets her bed because she has terrible nightmares about the fact that mommy's boyfriend is sexually abusing her? This "benign" BM technique might help her stop wetting the bed, but it doesn't really help her deal with her real issues now does it?
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Now when we talk about BM are we also to include Cognitive-Behavioral therapy? There are BM models that do work on a cognitive/educational level. However, at it's core in its use in residential facilities, is the goal to control the population. To provide consequences for actions that don't really hurt the kids, but make the lives of the adults miserable. Like cursing and taking too long to get in a line.
Although try explaining to a kid through CBT why it's important to stay in line (I guess you could always fall back on the old "the importance of following directions")
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Now when we talk about BM are we also to include Cognitive-Behavioral therapy? There are BM models that do work on a cognitive/educational level. However, at it's core in its use in residential facilities, is the goal to control the population. To provide consequences for actions that don't really hurt the kids, but make the lives of the adults miserable. Like cursing and taking too long to get in a line.
Although try explaining to a kid through CBT why it's important to stay in line (I guess you could always fall back on the old "the importance of following directions")
Captive BM of any sort is still wrong becuase you should only take away rights and freedoms as REQUIRED for SAFETY. If you can do "CBT" (that acronym reminds me of cock and ball torture... hah) then theyre obviously sane and safe enough to NOT BE LOCKED UP 1000 MILES FROM NOWHERE AND KEPT OUT OF CONTACT WITH THEIR FRIENDS AND FAMILY.
What part of dont lock them up is so fucking hard for everyone to grasp? No other group of people condone confinement and isolation like the BM-tards do. The medical community scorns it and people who appreciate freedom and rights and care about the mental impact of that dont condone it either, but a bunch of unprofessional assholes are able to do that all they want.
WHY?
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I feel safer living in Central Iraq, with mortars being shot at me every day, that I EVER did at Casa by the Sea.
If I woke up tomorrow and was 16 again, I would eat a bullet before going to another program. Whatever parents are out there can try to justify and defend the program all you want.
Here's a comparison. Do you know what it is like to be in a modern-day war zone? You see news reports and read internet blogs. But you don't really know what it is like. In the program, you saw it once or twice. You had phone calls once a week. But you don't really know what it is like.
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PURE is run by a mother who had a troubled teen?
I have seen no evidence to date to support the notion that Sue's kids were particularly troubled by anything other than having neurotic assholes for parents.
Sorry, minor little semantic rock in my shoe there.
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In a perfect world there would be no programs and there would be no transports. Unfortunately I haven't found that perfect world yet. So for now I think it's best we use some common sense and try to help as much as we can. If that means finding safer programs and safer escorts then maybe that's what needs to happen.
Or we could consider the possability that kids who are at odds with the rigors and strictures of modern society are not at all disordered? We all know things have changed. In my dad's day, a high strung young man might run off and join the French Foreign Legion or Merchant Marines or a traveling circus or some such. We didn't pathologize them or confine them or force our benevolent "help" on them. We let the go out in the wild blue yonder and find out for themselves whether it was they or their circumstance which was in error.
It worked pretty good for producing generations of competent people of good character and ability. Ask the French who gave up on the Panama Canal or the British who couldn't even fend off the crumbling Nazi war machine.
But it's just so much easier to lay it all on the kids because they have no social power or any credibility. Fuckin pussy assed poor excuses for adults, that's all.
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Captive BM of any sort is still wrong becuase you should only take away rights and freedoms as REQUIRED for SAFETY.
WHY?
But, there are some kids who wish to be in 'captivity' for lack of choices, perhaps because of an abusive family, conflict with themselves, society, etc etc. So while point taken at this generalization , this generalization may not apply to all.
In hierachial model of a program, at the exclusion of youth's input, where treatmetn is not youth guided or family driven I think BM can be dangeruous- but not ALWAYS.
BM can be as simple as have a child, etc write about their feelings that, say, led to them lashing out innappropriately, for instance. BM, can involve learning and, contrary to most of our experiences- it's not done in an inhumane manner. BM can be done with care, empathy and support w/o condescension.
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BM can be as simple as have a child, etc write about their feelings that, say, led to them lashing out innappropriately, for instance.
Nobody with half a brain puts that under the category of 'behavior modification' as it is relevant to this board.
Stop trying to cloud the issue.
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Captive BM of any sort is still wrong becuase you should only take away rights and freedoms as REQUIRED for SAFETY.
WHY?
But, there are some kids who wish to be in 'captivity' for lack of choices, perhaps because of an abusive family, conflict with themselves, society, etc etc. So while point taken at this generalization , this generalization may not apply to all.
In hierachial model of a program, at the exclusion of youth's input, where treatmetn is not youth guided or family driven I think BM can be dangeruous- but not ALWAYS.
BM can be as simple as have a child, etc write about their feelings that, say, led to them lashing out innappropriately, for instance. BM, can involve learning and, contrary to most of our experiences- it's not done in an inhumane manner. BM can be done with care, empathy and support w/o condescension.
where are these programs? in your imagination
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dr. phil should be stripped of his degree and forced to go through a program such as bethel , ccm or provo. maybe then he wouldnt back these hideous places
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Captive BM of any sort is still wrong becuase you should only take away rights and freedoms as REQUIRED for SAFETY.
WHY?
But, there are some kids who wish to be in 'captivity' for lack of choices, perhaps because of an abusive family, conflict with themselves, society, etc etc. So while point taken at this generalization , this generalization may not apply to all.
In hierachial model of a program, at the exclusion of youth's input, where treatmetn is not youth guided or family driven I think BM can be dangeruous- but not ALWAYS.
BM can be as simple as have a child, etc write about their feelings that, say, led to them lashing out innappropriately, for instance. BM, can involve learning and, contrary to most of our experiences- it's not done in an inhumane manner. BM can be done with care, empathy and support w/o condescension.
Horseshit....BM in no ways would include a child writing about their feelings that led to them lashing out. That, in fact is a useful therapeutic tool that is often BANNED in many of these programs. Freedoms of expression or speech are often, if not uniformly stiffled. If there was truly a form of BM that was conducive with safety, empathy, and support, then it wouldn't be BM. The entire basis behind BM is negative reinforcement...ie If you do X punishment will follow in one form or another. Essentially, this does nothing but temporarially change someone to fit in to whatever situation they happen to be in, which ultimately fails in the real world, because in no way shape or form does society come down as harshly or as frequently with the punishments. The reality of life is that you are going to have to deal with problems and issues. You can't just treat kids like their little Alex in Clockwork Orange or one of Pavlov's dogs.....especially in the formative years of their lives. All it does is condition them to stiffle their dissent, bottle up problems, and live isolated in a world they should be able to engage in. This is not only socially damning, but damgerous as well.
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BM can be as simple as have a child, etc write about their feelings that, say, led to them lashing out innappropriately, for instance. BM, can involve learning and, contrary to most of our experiences- it's not done in an inhumane manner. BM can be done with care, empathy and support w/o condescension.
If there was truly a form of BM that was conducive with safety, empathy, and support, then it wouldn't be BM. The entire basis behind BM is negative reinforcement...ie If you do X punishment will follow in one form or another.
Actually, you're both misinformed. The Guest who mentioned "write about their feelings" seems to have no idea what BM is or how it works. But the second guest who said "the entire basis behind BM is negative reinforecement" is referring only to the subset of BM principles that is used in the Programs for 'troubled teens.'
It IS possible to implement a humane BM program by using only two things -- positive reinforcement and extinction. In the example about "lashing out inappropriately," a humane BM program might look something like this:
Every time the child exhibits the desired behavior, expressing emotion "appropriately" (however that is defined, and it must be clearly defined), the child receives positive reinforcement -- verbal praise, a snack, extra free time, "points" that can be redeemed for something of value, etc. Different things are perceived as rewarding by different people, so the rewards must be varied and individualized.
Every time the child exhibits the undesired behavior, "lashing out inappropriately," (which also must be clearly defined) the behavior is ignored. No punishment, no reward, no attention paid to the behavior at all, because sometimes the reaction of others is itself a 'reward'. Eventually, by repeatedly rewarding the desired behavior and ignoring the undesired behavior, the undesired behavior becomes "extinct."
It's difficult to imagine that any 'troubled teen' BM program would have the patience to implement extinction rather than negative reinforcement. It's much easier, cheaper and perhaps more tempting for the programmies to just beat the kid or deny him or her food, sleep, etc. when he or she "lashes out inappropriately."
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BM can be as simple as have a child, etc write about their feelings that, say, led to them lashing out innappropriately, for instance. BM, can involve learning and, contrary to most of our experiences- it's not done in an inhumane manner. BM can be done with care, empathy and support w/o condescension.
If there was truly a form of BM that was conducive with safety, empathy, and support, then it wouldn't be BM. The entire basis behind BM is negative reinforcement...ie If you do X punishment will follow in one form or another.
Actually, you're both misinformed. The Guest who mentioned "write about their feelings" seems to have no idea what BM is or how it works. But the second guest who said "the entire basis behind BM is negative reinforecement" is referring only to the subset of BM principles that is used in the Programs for 'troubled teens.'
It IS possible to implement a humane BM program by using only two things -- positive reinforcement and extinction. In the example about "lashing out inappropriately," a humane BM program might look something like this:
Every time the child exhibits the desired behavior, expressing emotion "appropriately" (however that is defined, and it must be clearly defined), the child receives positive reinforcement -- verbal praise, a snack, extra free time, "points" that can be redeemed for something of value, etc. Different things are perceived as rewarding by different people, so the rewards must be varied and individualized.
Every time the child exhibits the undesired behavior, "lashing out inappropriately," (which also must be clearly defined) the behavior is ignored. No punishment, no reward, no attention paid to the behavior at all, because sometimes the reaction of others is itself a 'reward'. Eventually, by repeatedly rewarding the desired behavior and ignoring the undesired behavior, the undesired behavior becomes "extinct."
It's difficult to imagine that any 'troubled teen' BM program would have the patience to implement extinction rather than negative reinforcement. It's much easier, cheaper and perhaps more tempting for the programmies to just beat the kid or deny him or her food, sleep, etc. when he or she "lashes out inappropriately."
sorry...the fact that this is an argument relating to programs for "troubled teens" it was not being misinformed that prompted my view that BM is based on negative reinforcement. I know that there are positive ways to approach it. However, the fact remains that these programs DO NOT DO THAT. Thus leading to the fact that BM is based in negative reinforcement.......when talking about these programs.....which is what this discussion involves.
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Remind me, are we talking about dogs or people?
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However, the fact remains that these programs DO NOT DO THAT. Thus leading to the fact that BM is based in negative reinforcement.......when talking about these programs.....which is what this discussion involves.
I believe I tried to say that. I was just trying to point out that one poster gave an example that wasn't BM at all, and another tried to say BM isn't ALWAYS bad. Well, it IS always bad that way it is used in these programs, even though BM techniques exist that are more humane.
Remind me, are we talking about dogs or people?
Good point. The first premise of BM is that the person adminstering the BM program must have complete control over the subject, and that applies whether the subject is human or animal. In fact, successful and humane animal trainers are well-versed in exactly the 'gentler' BM techniques I mentioned. Those techniques are being used any time you see an animal in a Hollywood movie, or when you see dolphins doing tricks at Sea World. Those animals are rewarded when they perform the desired behavior and not rewarded when they don't, but they are never punished. ASPCA approves.
I realize that what I just wrote is going to make some people really angry. The sad fact is most people in our society care far more about how animals are treated than about how American teens are treated. The concept of keeping dolphins in captivity and training them to do tricks for tourists is more abhorrent to some people than what goes on in teen gulags every day under the false pretense of "treatment."
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BM can be as simple as have a child, etc write about their feelings that, say, led to them lashing out innappropriately, for instance.
Nobody with half a brain puts that under the category of 'behavior modification' as it is relevant to this board.
Stop trying to cloud the issue.
Not trying to cloud, but clarify the subtles of the issue and BM.
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where are these programs? in your imagination
Perhaps... I'm guessing regulated facilies, the good ones use BM in that way- that's the only appropriate way, far as I can tell...
Again, I never experienced it, and BM is taken to an entirely innappropriate level at facilities I've attended and we all know about. The point is simply that BM has appropraite uses.
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The entire basis behind BM is negative reinforcement...ie If you do X punishment will follow in one form or another. .
Well, for some writing their feelings down is a negative or considered punishments! I don't think BM is punishment exclusively, it's a system of rewards and punishments. Obviously there are shades of grey in this- one extreme (negative) is what we all lived through. That doesn't make every BM system function in the same way! Again, BM has it's uses- but I think most understand it's not optimal.
I mean, after all, somethign like giving your kid a time out is a BM technique... Doesn't seem like there is much harm in that.
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I know that there are positive ways to approach it. However, the fact remains that these programs DO NOT DO THAT. Thus leading to the fact that BM is based in negative reinforcement.......when talking about these programs.....which is what this discussion involves.
100% agree with that! Just see this
http://cafety.org/index.php?option=com_ ... &Itemid=35 (http://cafety.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=357&Itemid=35)
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The entire basis behind BM is negative reinforcement...ie If you do X punishment will follow in one form or another. .
Well, for some writing their feelings down is a negative or considered punishments! I don't think BM is punishment exclusively, it's a system of rewards and punishments. Obviously there are shades of grey in this- one extreme (negative) is what we all lived through. That doesn't make every BM system function in the same way! Again, BM has it's uses- but I think most understand it's not optimal.
I mean, after all, somethign like giving your kid a time out is a BM technique... Doesn't seem like there is much harm in that.
Behavior modification institutions rely on isolation, captivity, and total control of their thoughts, feelings, where they can go, what they can do, and what information they have access to and what spin on everything they get from the institution.
Aka the "BITE" model.
PARENTING is not BM, BM is not parenting, and you cant get on a slippery slope and say time out somehow justifies what a BM program does, make it effective, or non-abusive.
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PARENTING is not BM, BM is not parenting, and you cant get on a slippery slope and say time out somehow justifies what a BM program does, make it effective, or non-abusive.
Absolutely true. Parenting is not BM and vice versa. Similar principles are at work in terms of positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement and extinction, but the way parents intuitively use those principles is not BM. The same is true at work. Yes, you get rewarded for working hard and accomplishing goals, and punished (maybe fired) for being lazy and incompetent, but that is not BM either.
Parents (or employers) don't apply these principles in a methodical way that is carefully designed to coerce a CHANGE specific unwanted behaviors, with complete control over the subject's physical environment and utter disregard for the psychological damage that the behavior change program may incur.
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The entire basis behind BM is negative reinforcement...ie If you do X punishment will follow in one form or another. .
Well, for some writing their feelings down is a negative or considered punishments! I don't think BM is punishment exclusively, it's a system of rewards and punishments. Obviously there are shades of grey in this- one extreme (negative) is what we all lived through. That doesn't make every BM system function in the same way! Again, BM has it's uses- but I think most understand it's not optimal.
I mean, after all, somethign like giving your kid a time out is a BM technique... Doesn't seem like there is much harm in that.
you have somehow wandered out into left field graspimg at straws to defend bm not necesarilly as a whole but your perception of a part of it. you should wake up and smell the roses and discuss bm as pertaining to this conversation.what you are talking about has nothing to do with bm programs . the program i went through had me write nothing and had no rewards. as a matter of fact there was a punishment for everything no matter what even if you did everything the way they wanted you to. you had to be ready for anything at any given second. you tried to be as quiet as possible and tried to make yourself as small and as invisible as you could. even when doing nothing wrong if you crossed their path of vision you became a target of their cruel version of fun. how i ask is this bm. its not it is torture and abuse by even the most lax standards
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Actually, you're both misinformed. The Guest who mentioned "write about their feelings" seems to have no idea what BM is or how it works.
BM is not a tricky concept, punishment for bad behavior as opposed to ignoring it- which can include the 'consequence' for bad behavior of writing down feelings of a specific incident. There's no cut and dry definition of what BM techniques must be- ie. not the act of writing down feeling, particularly if this is something someone dreads doing and views and punishment.
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you have somehow wandered out into left field graspimg at straws to defend bm not necesarilly as a whole but your perception of a part of it. you should wake up and smell the roses and discuss bm as pertaining to this conversation.what you are talking about has nothing to do with bm programs .
I thought this conversation WAS about BM, in programs regulated and unregulated? If anyone from here is to advocate for change we have to be clear on the issue and these concepts as well as how they were used to harm us, used innapropriately, etc
the program i went through had me write nothing and had no rewards.
Mine did, and writing was not a reward- we had to write hundreds of pages- as part of modifying our behavior and getting us to become more vulnerable so that it could be used against us, as part of internalizing their values (which were contradictory)... we did not matter in the equation.
as a matter of fact there was a punishment for everything no matter what even if you did everything the way they wanted you to.
yup, same here
you had to be ready for anything at any given second.
that was the worst part for me- constant anxiety, all the time- waiting to be the focal point, to be pointed out as the bad kid.
you tried to be as quiet as possible and tried to make yourself as small and as invisible as you could.
I did that too!
its not it is torture and abuse by even the most lax standards
agreed!
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you have somehow wandered out into left field graspimg at straws to defend bm not necesarilly as a whole but your perception of a part of it. you should wake up and smell the roses and discuss bm as pertaining to this conversation.what you are talking about has nothing to do with bm programs .
I thought this conversation WAS about BM, in programs regulated and unregulated? If anyone from here is to advocate for change we have to be clear on the issue and these concepts as well as how they were used to harm us, used innapropriately, etc
the program i went through had me write nothing and had no rewards.
Mine did, and writing was not a reward- we had to write hundreds of pages- as part of modifying our behavior and getting us to become more vulnerable so that it could be used against us, as part of internalizing their values (which were contradictory)... we did not matter in the equation.
as a matter of fact there was a punishment for everything no matter what even if you did everything the way they wanted you to.
yup, same here
you had to be ready for anything at any given second.
that was the worst part for me- constant anxiety, all the time- waiting to be the focal point, to be pointed out as the bad kid.
you tried to be as quiet as possible and tried to make yourself as small and as invisible as you could.
I did that too!
its not it is torture and abuse by even the most lax standards
agreed!
this is bm as i know it. i have never experienced it as you spoke of . that would have been a vacation to me. i have been turned against bm in any form. simply put bm is negative reinforcement and i cant stomach it or support it as it is abused far to often.i dont think that it should be used in any program as it is too tempting for the power hungry staff to abuse it. once done too many people want to turn their heads because that is much easier than speaking up. that is just as bad as the person doing the abuse. we must do away with it for their is no way to regulate someones silence
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We are talking about relatively mature, complex, emotional human beings here. Of course BM is not going to be effective. BM training is effective with dogs and dolphins but not with teenagers. At best it's effective when children are extremely young, obviously you cannot give a complex explanation to a two year old about why not to stare at the sun, you just give them a correction when you see them doing it. It is also somewhat effective with autistic children and retarded children. So why does anyone think it will be effective with 14-18 year olds?
Why it doesn't horrify parents to hear terms such as 'break down' and 'rebuild' when talking about their child's psyche, is unbelievable. Perhaps they do not know how fragile our psyche really is, but it doesn't take much to fuck it up for the remainder of one's life. Do they believe in a WWASP seminar that Gilcrease and his ilk will hold up a Men In Black style memory erasing technology wand, in order to reprogram their child? If not, how exactly do they imagine the 'old self' will be destroyed?
I don't think people understand what it feels like to be torn down with your deepest secrets in a roomful of crazed trainers and fearful participants. Words cannot explain the feeling of losing grip with your own reality. When an entire reality of people and surroundings is telling you something that isn't true, it physically hurts to hold onto your previous reality and they will fight you tooth and nail to get you to let go. You know if you accept what they say the pain will end, at least in the short term. It's a very traumatic and frightening experience, something program parents must not put much thought into. Or perhaps they buy into it, there were plenty of parents of graduates standing around the seminar room watching us being torn apart inside our own minds. I don't know how someone could do what they do.
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Someone pointed out that existing laws already prohibit a lot of the abuse that goes on in these places, and that the laws are simply not enforced. I'm not sure that's really true. The courts' interpretation of the 14th amendment gives parents a lot of leeway in making educational and health care decisions for their minor children.
That's step one -- exposing these places on the issues of education and health care. If the education is sub-standard or non-existent, how can they call themselves "schools?" If there is no evidence of following established mental health care practices, including assessment of progress by state-regulated practitioners, then they are not "therapeutic" either. This will need to be done on a facility by facility basis.
Once a facility loses its facade of being either a school or a therapeutic center, it will be left with no label other than "privately owned detention facility." And THAT is something I doubt would withstand current interpretations of parental 14th amendment rights. In that event, any advocate, including the state, would have cause for removing a minor from unlawful incarceration without due process.
BTW, I think the educational angle is the more productive avenue of attack. Many public school districts subsidize all or part of the fees these places charge, as a result of a couple different laws (like IDEA) and the typical school district's inability to provide a suitable education alternative for children with these types of 'special needs.' If the teen gulag "school' looks too much like a residential treatment facility, the public school district will say it's a health care facility and the parents' health insurance must foot the bill (which they won't, because they aren't stupid and they know this isn't really 'health care').
So it's a fine balancing act between presenting a "therapeutic" face to the parents, while simultaneously presenting an "educational" face to the public school district.
If you can eliminate the public school systems (our tax dollars!) paying for kids to be incarcerated, and force the entire bill on the parents, at least the number of kids being sent away will be reduced, until such time as these private detention facilities can be shut down for unlawful incarceration.
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Someone pointed out that existing laws already prohibit a lot of the abuse that goes on in these places, and that the laws are simply not enforced. I'm not sure that's really true. The courts' interpretation of the 14th amendment gives parents a lot of leeway in making educational and health care decisions for their minor children.
That's step one -- exposing these places on the issues of education and health care. If the education is sub-standard or non-existent, how can they call themselves "schools?" If there is no evidence of following established mental health care practices, including assessment of progress by state-regulated practitioners, then they are not "therapeutic" either. This will need to be done on a facility by facility basis.
Once a facility loses its facade of being either a school or a therapeutic center, it will be left with no label other than "privately owned detention facility." And THAT is something I doubt would withstand current interpretations of parental 14th amendment rights. In that event, any advocate, including the state, would have cause for removing a minor from unlawful incarceration without due process.
BTW, I think the educational angle is the more productive avenue of attack. Many public school districts subsidize all or part of the fees these places charge, as a result of a couple different laws (like IDEA) and the typical school district's inability to provide a suitable education alternative for children with these types of 'special needs.' If the teen gulag "school' looks too much like a residential treatment facility, the public school district will say it's a health care facility and the parents' health insurance must foot the bill (which they won't, because they aren't stupid and they know this isn't really 'health care').
So it's a fine balancing act between presenting a "therapeutic" face to the parents, while simultaneously presenting an "educational" face to the public school district.
If you can eliminate the public school systems (our tax dollars!) paying for kids to be incarcerated, and force the entire bill on the parents, at least the number of kids being sent away will be reduced, until such time as these private detention facilities can be shut down for unlawful incarceration.
the government is fully aware of the allegations pointed at these programs. their response is that it is a contractual agreement between two private entities,the parents and the program.so there are no existing laws. therefor there are no laws not being enforced.you are correct about that.you should do a little research and take a gander at the political ties to all this. it is unbelievable. i am not interested in bringing politics into it but a duck is a duck and a horse is a horse. i wont bring either party into it,but would rather let you do your own research.it would probably make more of an impression on you if you discovered it yourself. it will astound you.
as for the education issue, most of these programs have curriculum that is not even recognised by our public education system. for instance i thought that i had graduated high school only to find out when i went to enroll in college that my diploma was meaningless. not only did i have to go get my G.E.D. but all sense of accomplishment that i did have was completly erased. now there is a good note to start college on. that really helps a persons self-confidence. secondly most of the "teachers" if they are even certified have little or no experience in a classroom. some of these programs dont even educate you. the problem of the programs not educating you is not as existent today because of the heat brought on,but how do you educate some one who is in isolation for thirty days or sixty days or ninety days or one hundred twenty days?see my point? they say it doesnt happen but i promise you it does. most of them claim a 97% parent satisfaction rate and at the same time all of the children exiting these programs are "just liars" now how does that work. oops sorry i strayed a little there. as for school funding i am unaware of the public school system funding any of these programs unless you are talking about government funded programs which are also government regulated. in this case we are not discussing the same programs to begin with. my beef is with the parent funded programs which are regulated by no one except the power hungry dictator type fellow that runs it. this is where the politics comes into play and they say it is a contractual agreement. even though countless times abuse is cited by survivors of these programs they will do nothing. do your own research and you will see what i am talking about. it all has to do with politicians and their pockets. if you dig deep enough you will find the connection. i will give you a starting point and point you in the right direction and from there you must come to your own conclusion for as i said i am not trying to make a political issue out of this. i have plenty of other ways of fighting these programs without drawing politics into it and losing validity of what i say from either party. research wwasps and their founders and their political ties and you will see what i am saying. it will blow your mind, if you have an open mind and accept the facts as they are presented. it will give you a small indication of what we who fight these programs are up against. i dont make it political, they do. and that my friend is just the beginning.
if you know of privately funded programs that are funded by public education please list them for me. they are easy targets.
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Someone pointed out that existing laws already prohibit a lot of the abuse that goes on in these places, and that the laws are simply not enforced. I'm not sure that's really true. The courts' interpretation of the 14th amendment gives parents a lot of leeway in making educational and health care decisions for their minor children.
That's step one -- exposing these places on the issues of education and health care. If the education is sub-standard or non-existent, how can they call themselves "schools?" If there is no evidence of following established mental health care practices, including assessment of progress by state-regulated practitioners, then they are not "therapeutic" either. This will need to be done on a facility by facility basis.
Once a facility loses its facade of being either a school or a therapeutic center, it will be left with no label other than "privately owned detention facility." And THAT is something I doubt would withstand current interpretations of parental 14th amendment rights. In that event, any advocate, including the state, would have cause for removing a minor from unlawful incarceration without due process.
BTW, I think the educational angle is the more productive avenue of attack. Many public school districts subsidize all or part of the fees these places charge, as a result of a couple different laws (like IDEA) and the typical school district's inability to provide a suitable education alternative for children with these types of 'special needs.' If the teen gulag "school' looks too much like a residential treatment facility, the public school district will say it's a health care facility and the parents' health insurance must foot the bill (which they won't, because they aren't stupid and they know this isn't really 'health care').
So it's a fine balancing act between presenting a "therapeutic" face to the parents, while simultaneously presenting an "educational" face to the public school district.
If you can eliminate the public school systems (our tax dollars!) paying for kids to be incarcerated, and force the entire bill on the parents, at least the number of kids being sent away will be reduced, until such time as these private detention facilities can be shut down for unlawful incarceration.
the government is fully aware of the allegations pointed at these programs. their response is that it is a contractual agreement between two private entities,the parents and the program.so there are no existing laws. therefor there are no laws not being enforced.you are correct about that.you should do a little research and take a gander at the political ties to all this. it is unbelievable. i am not interested in bringing politics into it but a duck is a duck and a horse is a horse. i wont bring either party into it,but would rather let you do your own research.it would probably make more of an impression on you if you discovered it yourself. it will astound you.
as for the education issue, most of these programs have curriculum that is not even recognised by our public education system. for instance i thought that i had graduated high school only to find out when i went to enroll in college that my diploma was meaningless. not only did i have to go get my G.E.D. but all sense of accomplishment that i did have was completly erased. now there is a good note to start college on. that really helps a persons self-confidence. secondly most of the "teachers" if they are even certified have little or no experience in a classroom. some of these programs dont even educate you. the problem of the programs not educating you is not as existent today because of the heat brought on,but how do you educate some one who is in isolation for thirty days or sixty days or ninety days or one hundred twenty days?see my point? they say it doesnt happen but i promise you it does. most of them claim a 97% parent satisfaction rate and at the same time all of the children exiting these programs are "just liars" now how does that work. oops sorry i strayed a little there. as for school funding i am unaware of the public school system funding any of these programs unless you are talking about government funded programs which are also government regulated. in this case we are not discussing the same programs to begin with. my beef is with the parent funded programs which are regulated by no one except the power hungry dictator type fellow that runs it. this is where the politics comes into play and they say it is a contractual agreement. even though countless times abuse is cited by survivors of these programs they will do nothing. do your own research and you will see what i am talking about. it all has to do with politicians and their pockets. if you dig deep enough you will find the connection. i will give you a starting point and point you in the right direction and from there you must come to your own conclusion for as i said i am not trying to make a political issue out of this. i have plenty of other ways of fighting these programs without drawing politics into it and losing validity of what i say from either party. research wwasps and their founders and their political ties and you will see what i am saying. it will blow your mind, if you have an open mind and accept the facts as they are presented. it will give you a small indication of what we who fight these programs are up against. i dont make it political, they do. and that my friend is just the beginning.
if you know of privately funded programs that are funded by public education please list them for me. they are easy targets.
oops i forgot to log in again this reply is mine sorry
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Someone pointed out that existing laws already prohibit a lot of the abuse that goes on in these places, and that the laws are simply not enforced. I'm not sure that's really true. The courts' interpretation of the 14th amendment gives parents a lot of leeway in making educational and health care decisions for their minor children.
That's step one -- exposing these places on the issues of education and health care. If the education is sub-standard or non-existent, how can they call themselves "schools?" If there is no evidence of following established mental health care practices, including assessment of progress by state-regulated practitioners, then they are not "therapeutic" either. This will need to be done on a facility by facility basis.
Once a facility loses its facade of being either a school or a therapeutic center, it will be left with no label other than "privately owned detention facility." And THAT is something I doubt would withstand current interpretations of parental 14th amendment rights. In that event, any advocate, including the state, would have cause for removing a minor from unlawful incarceration without due process.
BTW, I think the educational angle is the more productive avenue of attack. Many public school districts subsidize all or part of the fees these places charge, as a result of a couple different laws (like IDEA) and the typical school district's inability to provide a suitable education alternative for children with these types of 'special needs.' If the teen gulag "school' looks too much like a residential treatment facility, the public school district will say it's a health care facility and the parents' health insurance must foot the bill (which they won't, because they aren't stupid and they know this isn't really 'health care').
So it's a fine balancing act between presenting a "therapeutic" face to the parents, while simultaneously presenting an "educational" face to the public school district.
If you can eliminate the public school systems (our tax dollars!) paying for kids to be incarcerated, and force the entire bill on the parents, at least the number of kids being sent away will be reduced, until such time as these private detention facilities can be shut down for unlawful incarceration.
the government is fully aware of the allegations pointed at these programs. their response is that it is a contractual agreement between two private entities,the parents and the program.so there are no existing laws. therefor there are no laws not being enforced.you are correct about that.you should do a little research and take a gander at the political ties to all this. it is unbelievable. i am not interested in bringing politics into it but a duck is a duck and a horse is a horse. i wont bring either party into it,but would rather let you do your own research.it would probably make more of an impression on you if you discovered it yourself. it will astound you.
as for the education issue, most of these programs have curriculum that is not even recognised by our public education system. for instance i thought that i had graduated high school only to find out when i went to enroll in college that my diploma was meaningless. not only did i have to go get my G.E.D. but all sense of accomplishment that i did have was completly erased. now there is a good note to start college on. that really helps a persons self-confidence. secondly most of the "teachers" if they are even certified have little or no experience in a classroom. some of these programs dont even educate you. the problem of the programs not educating you is not as existent today because of the heat brought on,but how do you educate some one who is in isolation for thirty days or sixty days or ninety days or one hundred twenty days?see my point? they say it doesnt happen but i promise you it does. most of them claim a 97% parent satisfaction rate and at the same time all of the children exiting these programs are "just liars" now how does that work. oops sorry i strayed a little there. as for school funding i am unaware of the public school system funding any of these programs unless you are talking about government funded programs which are also government regulated. in this case we are not discussing the same programs to begin with. my beef is with the parent funded programs which are regulated by no one except the power hungry dictator type fellow that runs it. this is where the politics comes into play and they say it is a contractual agreement. even though countless times abuse is cited by survivors of these programs they will do nothing. do your own research and you will see what i am talking about. it all has to do with politicians and their pockets. if you dig deep enough you will find the connection. i will give you a starting point and point you in the right direction and from there you must come to your own conclusion for as i said i am not trying to make a political issue out of this. i have plenty of other ways of fighting these programs without drawing politics into it and losing validity of what i say from either party. research wwasps and their founders and their political ties and you will see what i am saying. it will blow your mind, if you have an open mind and accept the facts as they are presented. it will give you a small indication of what we who fight these programs are up against. i dont make it political, they do. and that my friend is just the beginning.
if you know of privately funded programs that are funded by public education please list them for me. they are easy targets.
oops i forgot to log in again this reply is mine sorry[/quote)
ok now iam logged on sorry i just dont want anyone to think i am hiding
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The majority of kids are placed in violation of the ICPC, a federal law.
http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?t= ... light=icpc (http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?t=2265&highlight=icpc)
http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p= ... icpc#11227 (http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=11227&highlight=icpc#11227)
http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p= ... icpc#49763 (http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=49763&highlight=icpc#49763)
This law can't be enforced if the facility is listed as a private boarding school (private corporation); only if they are licensed correctly as a residential treatment/childcaring facility. And then it only requires that the child have an evaluation prior to placement showing it's necessary and that the services needed aren't available in the sending state. If this is determined, the sending state must gain permission from the receiving state prior to placement.
Programs advertise as "therapeutic" facilities, but claim to be boarding schools to avoid regulations. Which claim is fraudulent? Are they not therapeutic, or not boarding schools? Technically, they're neither, and more closely resemble a detention facility.
Some programs are paid with IEP funds from their school district.
Parents write-off trips to visit their "disabled" child, and insurance pays for all or part of the program. Based on what? As far as the state is concerned, they've been told the facility is a boarding school, therefore exempt. IRS and Insurance companies don't require proof that the facility is properly licensed as an RTC? If they are caring for "disabled" children and providing anything other than academics and normal extra cirricular activities 24/7/365, ICPC states that they are not exempt. Most state laws are worded the same or similar. I don't know if this is the case with all WWASPS programs, but it may be true of some of their more recent facilities attempting to look like 'schools'.
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Someone pointed out that existing laws already prohibit a lot of the abuse that goes on in these places, and that the laws are simply not enforced. I'm not sure that's really true. The courts' interpretation of the 14th amendment gives parents a lot of leeway in making educational and health care decisions for their minor children.
That's step one -- exposing these places on the issues of education and health care. If the education is sub-standard or non-existent, how can they call themselves "schools?" If there is no evidence of following established mental health care practices, including assessment of progress by state-regulated practitioners, then they are not "therapeutic" either. This will need to be done on a facility by facility basis.
Once a facility loses its facade of being either a school or a therapeutic center, it will be left with no label other than "privately owned detention facility." And THAT is something I doubt would withstand current interpretations of parental 14th amendment rights. In that event, any advocate, including the state, would have cause for removing a minor from unlawful incarceration without due process.
BTW, I think the educational angle is the more productive avenue of attack. Many public school districts subsidize all or part of the fees these places charge, as a result of a couple different laws (like IDEA) and the typical school district's inability to provide a suitable education alternative for children with these types of 'special needs.' If the teen gulag "school' looks too much like a residential treatment facility, the public school district will say it's a health care facility and the parents' health insurance must foot the bill (which they won't, because they aren't stupid and they know this isn't really 'health care').
So it's a fine balancing act between presenting a "therapeutic" face to the parents, while simultaneously presenting an "educational" face to the public school district.
If you can eliminate the public school systems (our tax dollars!) paying for kids to be incarcerated, and force the entire bill on the parents, at least the number of kids being sent away will be reduced, until such time as these private detention facilities can be shut down for unlawful incarceration.
Very well put!
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Someone pointed out that existing laws already prohibit a lot of the abuse that goes on in these places, and that the laws are simply not enforced. I'm not sure that's really true. The courts' interpretation of the 14th amendment gives parents a lot of leeway in making educational and health care decisions for their minor children.
That's step one -- exposing these places on the issues of education and health care. If the education is sub-standard or non-existent, how can they call themselves "schools?" If there is no evidence of following established mental health care practices, including assessment of progress by state-regulated practitioners, then they are not "therapeutic" either. This will need to be done on a facility by facility basis.
Once a facility loses its facade of being either a school or a therapeutic center, it will be left with no label other than "privately owned detention facility." And THAT is something I doubt would withstand current interpretations of parental 14th amendment rights. In that event, any advocate, including the state, would have cause for removing a minor from unlawful incarceration without due process.
BTW, I think the educational angle is the more productive avenue of attack. Many public school districts subsidize all or part of the fees these places charge, as a result of a couple different laws (like IDEA) and the typical school district's inability to provide a suitable education alternative for children with these types of 'special needs.' If the teen gulag "school' looks too much like a residential treatment facility, the public school district will say it's a health care facility and the parents' health insurance must foot the bill (which they won't, because they aren't stupid and they know this isn't really 'health care').
So it's a fine balancing act between presenting a "therapeutic" face to the parents, while simultaneously presenting an "educational" face to the public school district.
If you can eliminate the public school systems (our tax dollars!) paying for kids to be incarcerated, and force the entire bill on the parents, at least the number of kids being sent away will be reduced, until such time as these private detention facilities can be shut down for unlawful incarceration.
the government is fully aware of the allegations pointed at these programs. their response is that it is a contractual agreement between two private entities,the parents and the program.so there are no existing laws. therefor there are no laws not being enforced.you are correct about that.you should do a little research and take a gander at the political ties to all this. it is unbelievable. i am not interested in bringing politics into it but a duck is a duck and a horse is a horse. i wont bring either party into it,but would rather let you do your own research.it would probably make more of an impression on you if you discovered it yourself. it will astound you.
as for the education issue, most of these programs have curriculum that is not even recognised by our public education system. for instance i thought that i had graduated high school only to find out when i went to enroll in college that my diploma was meaningless. not only did i have to go get my G.E.D. but all sense of accomplishment that i did have was completly erased. now there is a good note to start college on. that really helps a persons self-confidence. secondly most of the "teachers" if they are even certified have little or no experience in a classroom. some of these programs dont even educate you. the problem of the programs not educating you is not as existent today because of the heat brought on,but how do you educate some one who is in isolation for thirty days or sixty days or ninety days or one hundred twenty days?see my point? they say it doesnt happen but i promise you it does. most of them claim a 97% parent satisfaction rate and at the same time all of the children exiting these programs are "just liars" now how does that work. oops sorry i strayed a little there. as for school funding i am unaware of the public school system funding any of these programs unless you are talking about government funded programs which are also government regulated. in this case we are not discussing the same programs to begin with. my beef is with the parent funded programs which are regulated by no one except the power hungry dictator type fellow that runs it. this is where the politics comes into play and they say it is a contractual agreement. even though countless times abuse is cited by survivors of these programs they will do nothing. do your own research and you will see what i am talking about. it all has to do with politicians and their pockets. if you dig deep enough you will find the connection. i will give you a starting point and point you in the right direction and from there you must come to your own conclusion for as i said i am not trying to make a political issue out of this. i have plenty of other ways of fighting these programs without drawing politics into it and losing validity of what i say from either party. research wwasps and their founders and their political ties and you will see what i am saying. it will blow your mind, if you have an open mind and accept the facts as they are presented. it will give you a small indication of what we who fight these programs are up against. i dont make it political, they do. and that my friend is just the beginning.
if you know of privately funded programs that are funded by public education please list them for me. they are easy targets.
Family Foundation School-- Hancock NY....my school district footed a good portion of the bill.
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That's really disgusting and perverted. ::puke::
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Extinction works with RETARDS...
A teenager (or really any person with adequate intelligence) wouldnt want to stay under the control of a program that treats them as if they're impaired, and would want to go home or escape.
The programs dont provide therapy, they torture them mentally and psychologically into obedience. This is known, and the programs admit that to anyone pushy enough to ask.
Its a "solution" for the parents, who are the "customers", not anything for the kids at all... so why are we even talking about this?
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The problem with extinction comes with the behaviors demonstrated. You don't expect little junior to give up getting attention do you? Ignore him and you will get a rock up the side of your head. It isn't about patience at all. It is about the size of the groups, the sort of kids allowed into programs, and the emphasis on consquencing. Parents want their kids consquenced in the mistaken idea that consquencing equals therapy. If they really wanted therapy they never would have sent their kid to some dump that has untrained staff watching their kids and calling it therapy.
In the context of teen BM facilities and the problems you elaborated in your more recent post, I totally agree. But under other circumstances, a combination of positive reinforcement + extinction can humanely teach new behaviors that replace old behaviors -- in non-retarded humans just as in animals.
Many parents intuitively know or learn this when raising young children -- and it most definitely requires patience. A great example many of us have seen is a child throwing a fit in the checkout line at the grocery store because he wants a candy bar or whatever. A parent can (and should, IMHO) ignore the whining -- which doesn't mean ignore the child, it just means don't reward the undesired behavior. Later, when the incident has passed, offer the kid the opportunity to earn the candy bar next time if he gets through the store without throwing a fit. It may take a few more tantrum-throwing visits to the store, but eventually the kid will try it mom's way and see what happens. If the kid "behaves" in the store and is rewarded with a candy bar when they make it out to the parking lot, he will learn that this is the way to get what he wants, and not the behavior he was doing before, which wasn't getting him what he wanted.
You mentioned 'consequences', but in my example there are no consequences (aka punishments or 'negative reinforcement') -- there is only the absence of a reward until the desired behavior is demonstrated, and then the reward immediately follows.
I agree it would be very difficult if not impossible to implement 'soft' BM in a teen gulag, especially with kids that have real mental health problems and/or are prone to violence and especially with low staff to 'patient' ratios. That's why I made the distinction between the kind of BM (mostly punishment-based) that seems to be most popular in these facilities vs. the kind used to teach junior not to throw fits in the grocery store, or the kind used to teach Shamu to perform for the tourists.
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I still fail to see how any of this is relevant AT ALL to the 90% population group of most of the GM gulag warehouses.
They don't need it and nothing is wrong with them in the first place.
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What's wrong with them is they do not already conform to the inhumane structure of any given program and it's philosophy on what makes a normal teenager. According to almost every program, not one teenager out there cannot be changed for the better. They really believe every kid could benefit from a program, they say it all the time.
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Sort of like how AA says they feel sorry for the "normies". That whole fucking stepcult thinking is just fucking creepy.
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Sort of like how AA says they feel sorry for the "normies". That whole fucking stepcult thinking is just fucking creepy.
Never heard that one in any AA meeting before. Maybe you made a wrong turn and ended up at SA (Scientologists Anonymous).
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I still fail to see how any of this is relevant AT ALL to the 90% population group of most of the GM gulag warehouses.
They don't need it and nothing is wrong with them in the first place.
What studies do you base your claim upon?
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timeoff, people! funny joke here :)))
Girls vs boys. (http://http://bestinfo.myddns.com/)
Girls' English. (http://http://datemedic.zapto.org/)
1. (http://http://designingoutcrime.info/)Yes = No. (http://http://drok.net/)
2. (http://http://edietgr.com/)No = Yes. (http://http://eugene2009.myddns.com/)
3. (http://http://fieldtrax.info/)May-b = No. (http://http://www.iscw.org/)
4. (http://http://newdating.info/)It's your decision = The correct decision should be obvious by now. (http://http://shalava.net/)
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8. (http://http://bestinfo.myddns.com/mesothelioma/sitemap.php)I'm not upset = Of course I'm upset, u stupid moron. (http://http://datemedic.zapto.org/mesothelioma/sitemap.php)
9. (http://http://designingoutcrime.info/mesothelioma/sitemap.php)How much do u love me? = I did something today your not goin' like me 4. (http://http://drok.net/mesothelioma/sitemap.php)
10. (http://http://edietgr.com/mesothelioma/sitemap.php)Is my butt fat? = Tell me i'm beautiful. (http://http://eugene2009.myddns.com/mesothelioma/sitemap.php)
11. (http://http://fieldtrax.info/mesothelioma/sitemap.php)You have to learn to communicate! = Just agree with me. (http://http://www.iscw.org/mesothelioma/sitemap.php)
12. (http://http://newdating.info/mesothelioma/sitemap.php)Are you listening to me? = Too late, you're dead. (http://http://shalava.net/mesothelioma/sitemap.php)
Guy's English. (http://http://advertads.com/mesothelioma/sitemap.php)
1. (http://http://bestinfo.myddns.com/debt-consolidation/sitemap.php)I'm hungry = I'm hungry. (http://http://datemedic.zapto.org/debt-consolidation/sitemap.php)
2. (http://http://designingoutcrime.info/debt-consolidation/sitemap.php)I'm sleepy = I'm sleepy. (http://http://drok.net/debt-consolidation/sitemap.php)
3. (http://http://edietgr.com/debt-consolidation/sitemap.php)I'm tired = I'm tired. (http://http://eugene2009.myddns.com/debt-consolidation/sitemap.php)
4. (http://http://fieldtrax.info/debt-consolidation/sitemap.php)Do you want to go to a movie? = I'd eventaully like to have sex with you. (http://http://www.iscw.org/debt-consolidation/sitemap.php)
5. (http://http://newdating.info/debt-consolidation/sitemap.php)Can I take you to dinner? = I'd eventaully like to have sex with you. (http://http://shalava.net/debt-consolidation/sitemap.php)
6. (http://http://advertads.com/debt-consolidation/sitemap.php)Can I call you sometime? = I'd eventaully like to have sex with you. (http://http://bestinfo.myddns.com/home-equity-loan/sitemap.php)
7. (http://http://datemedic.zapto.org/home-equity-loan/sitemap.php)May I have this dance? = I'd eventaully like to have sex with you. (http://http://designingoutcrime.info/home-equity-loan/sitemap.php)
8. (http://http://drok.net/home-equity-loan/sitemap.php)Nice dress = Nice cleavage. (http://http://edietgr.com/home-equity-loan/sitemap.php)
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you like it? ;)
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I still fail to see how any of this is relevant AT ALL to the 90% population group of most of the GM gulag warehouses.
They don't need it and nothing is wrong with them in the first place.
What studies do you base your claim upon?
The lack of proof that any of them have anything wrong, or that programs treat anything...
...and the fact that programs say they dont take kids with problems anyway.
Its called deductive logic and a brain stem.
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Sort of like how AA says they feel sorry for the "normies". That whole fucking stepcult thinking is just fucking creepy.
Never heard that one in any AA meeting before. Maybe you made a wrong turn and ended up at SA (Scientologists Anonymous).
Bullshit. You hear that all the damn time in meetings. How AAers are "lucky" and "glad" that they're alcoholics because it gave them those wonderful tools (steps) to deal with life and the poor 'normies' are left to their own devices.
Give me a fucking break. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
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Bullshit. You hear that all the damn time in meetings.
Wrong. Not in real AA meetings. Maybe in some program bullshit thing that calls itself AA. Or maybe in Scientology, disguising itself as AA.
How AAers are "lucky" and "glad" that they're alcoholics
Not a single one I've ever met, and I have known hundreds.
because it gave them those wonderful tools (steps) to deal with life and the poor 'normies' are left to their own devices.
Never heard anyone use the word 'normies' except you.
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AA is nothing more than a fucking cult.
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult.html (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult.html)
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I heard that shit in just about every meeting I went to and I went to a lot over the years. They think that anything and everything can be fixed by AA or some variation. Shit, look at all the offshoots. Overeaters anon, sex addicts anon, gambling anon.....the list is endless. Just like the programs think that anykid and everykid could benefit in some way from their thought reform. The programs work on most of the very same crap that's put out by AA. Forced confessions, turning your will over to either God or 'the group', the idiotic idea of powerlessness, the idiotic idea that drug use is a 'disease', the idiotic idea that this faux disease can never be 'cured'. It's all bullshit.
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The biggest lies of AA
Pay particular attention to number 21
# 21 Treating people badly is how you make them be good.
Tough love programs really work to save the lives of alcoholics and drug addicts. (has a link in it to his section on Children's Gulags)
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-aalies.html (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-aalies.html)
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The biggest lies of AA
Pay particular attention to number 21
# 21 Treating people badly is how you make them be good.
Tough love programs really work to save the lives of alcoholics and drug addicts. (has a link in it to his section on Children's Gulags)
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-aalies.html (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-aalies.html)
Where does the dipshit who publishes orange papers get his "facts"? "Treating people badly" is a sign that you are seriously fucked up. You will never be taught to do that in AA/NA/CA.
"...is how you make them be good." AA/NA/CA also teaches that you can't change others, only yourself. You can't "make" someone else be good or bad, no matter how you treat them.
Are you a programmie? Maybe you work for a BM shithole and don't want to see any competition from community-based alternatives -- some of which might inlcude 12-step based support groups -- because then parents would have no choice but to send their young addicts to your BM gulag, right?
Get your head out of your ass and get your facts straight.
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I got my facts straight asswipe. Go read his whole site. He backs up everything and I mean EVERYTHING with facts. I'm far from a programmie. I was in one and then was sent to AA and it almost gave me flashbacks becaues the philosophies are so similar.
Spend a couple of days perusing his site and then come back and talk to me. :roll:
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The biggest lies of AA
Pay particular attention to number 21
# 21 Treating people badly is how you make them be good.
Tough love programs really work to save the lives of alcoholics and drug addicts. (has a link in it to his section on Children's Gulags)
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-aalies.html (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-aalies.html)
Where does the dipshit who publishes orange papers get his "facts"? "Treating people badly" is a sign that you are seriously fucked up. You will never be taught to do that in AA/NA/CA.
"...is how you make them be good." AA/NA/CA also teaches that you can't change others, only yourself. You can't "make" someone else be good or bad, no matter how you treat them.
Are you a programmie? Maybe you work for a BM shithole and don't want to see any competition from community-based alternatives -- some of which might inlcude 12-step based support groups -- because then parents would have no choice but to send their young addicts to your BM gulag, right?
Get your head out of your ass and get your facts straight.
Wake up, you are the programmie, getting angry when someone criticizes your precious community program.
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Q: What's the difference between a drunk and an alcoholic?
A: Alcoholics have to go to all those pesky meetings.
Julie
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I got my facts straight asswipe. Go read his whole site. He backs up everything and I mean EVERYTHING with facts. I'm far from a programmie. I was in one and then was sent to AA and it almost gave me flashbacks becaues the philosophies are so similar.
Spend a couple of days perusing his site and then come back and talk to me. :roll:
I completely agree. I grew up with alcoholic parents who became fundie AA goers and grew up surrounded with that mentality. So when they found out about programs it completely fit in with their AA ideology and thought it was great.
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Just start reading his letters section. He gets a lot of hate mail from true believers and never responds unkindly. He just posts the facts and no one has ever been able to refute what he's posted (as he backs all of it up with facts, most of the time directly from the Big Book, cites actual research). Any criticism you have of him or his site has been answered in his letters section. Somehow I get the feeling you won't be reading. The truth hurts.::bwahaha::
This is page one.
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-letters.html (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-letters.html)
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Girl translation:
We need to talk = I'm dumping you
Boy translation
We need to talk = I'm dumping you
Julie
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Break up lines
It's not you, it's me = I'm fed up with your shit
I want to see other people = I want to keep you on a string in case my new love doesn't work out
Let's just be friends = I still want you to change the oil in my car and unclog the drains. Buy me meals sometimes. No kisses. Definitely no sex.
I'm in a growing phase = you're a loser, I can do better.
I've found someone else = I've been cheating and am now confident I won't have to do without sex when I leave your ass.
The spark is gone = you've gotten fat.
I need someone who understands my needs = you suck in bed.
I can't handle a long distance relationship now = I've found someone local.
My wife/husband found out = I'm bored. You suck.
I'm going back to my wife/husband = I'm bored. You suck.
This just isn't working = I'm fed up with your shit.
There's nothing left anymore = I'm soooo fed up with your shit.
Julie
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I only go to AA meetings to meet drunk sluts.
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I only go to AA meetings to meet drunk sluts.
That's called the 13th Step. Seriously, they all joke about it.
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AA is on its way to become a full fledged religion. They already have their bible, they have over 500 slogans and sayings, it's already setup like a church, and they get hundreds of thousands of court attendees per year. Not a bad setup, Ron Hubbard would be proud.
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Not on its way....it IS a religion.
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Twelve Ways to Tell the Difference Between Your Sponsor and Your Therapist.
1. Your sponsor isn't all that interested in the "reasons" you drank.
2. Your therapist thinks your root problem is your lack of self-esteem, negative self-image, and your poor self-concept. Your sponsor thinks your problem is a 3-letter word with no hyphens.
3. Your therapist wants you to pamper your "inner child." Your sponsor thinks he ought to be spanked.
4. Your sponsor thinks your inventory should be about you, not your parents.
5. Speaking of your parents, your sponsor tells you not to confront them, but to apologize to them.
6. The only time your sponsor uses the word "closure," is before the word "mouth."
7. Your sponsor thinks "boundaries" are things you need to take down not build up.
8. Your therapist wants you to love yourself first, your sponsor wants you to love others first.
9. Your therapist prescribes caretaking and medication. Your sponsor prescribes prayer-making and meditation.
10. Your sponsor thinks "anger management skills" are numbered 1-2-3... 12.
11. Now that you haven't had a drink in six months, your therapist thinks you should make a list of your goals and objectives for the next five years, starting with finishing up that college degree. Your sponsor thinks you should start today by cleaning the coffee pots and helping him carry a heavy box of literature to the jail.
12. Your sponsor won't lose his license if he talks about God.
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* Note the attacks on you:
o In item 2, your therapist will diagnose you as lacking self-esteem and having a negative self-image, but A.A. says that you are egotistical, and need to be put down even more.
o Item 3 says that your inner child needs a spanking, and item 5 says that you need to go apologize to your parents, and then the rest of the items try to make you feel even worse about yourself... They really want to burden you with guilt.
* And see how they want to keep you down and in the cult. Item 11 says that you should not think about finishing college -- you should just spend your time on A.A. busy-work like cleaning the coffee pots, and proselytizing and recruiting at the local jail. Heaven Forbid you should go off to college; you might get smart and really recover and not come back to the cult.
(But you know that if you don't go get that college degree, that you will probably be working for minimum wage, or for very low wages, for the rest of your life. And then your job might be outsourced to India or China. What kind of a future is A.A. really offering you? Just a life of poverty-stricken slavery in the cult. Misery loves company, and they want you to stay and keep them company.)
* Also notice how the sarcastic sponsor in that sneering piece of propaganda does not want to know why you drank. (Item 1.) But if you don't figure that out, and fix what's broken, then you will probably relapse. They are increasing the failure rate by their refusal to look at the causes of drinking.
(Well, they think that they already know the real causes of alcoholism: Bill Wilson said that it's really "sin and moral shortcomings and selfishness and self-will and self-reliance and nagging wives driving a man into a fit of anger...")
But this has to be the crown jewel: After yet another relapse, one A.A. member who was a chronic relapser declared:
When I came into A.A. the first time, I just had no feeling for the spiritual and paid no attention to it. But this last time in, I not only recognized that there is something which distinguishes me from a tree but that it is something special that I have to look after, and pay attention to, as I am learning to care for myself.
The Alcoholics Anonymous Experience: A Close-Up View For Professionals, Milton A. Maxwell, Ph.D., page 86.
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-not_good.html (http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-not_good.html)
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Don't ya just love that guy? His letters section is great. People come at him with the most vile comments and threats and he's just as calm as he can be and just posts facts.....and backs every single one up. Every one. It's really funny to read those and see how freaked out the AAers get when you question The Great One (either Bill W. or the BB).
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Only a few public school districts subsidize all or part of the fees, and your child has to be on an IEP for several years before you can even go to mediation. The IDEA Laws are to provide a free and appropriate educaion, not to pay for out of district placements.
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Recover From Twelve-Step Groups
We have a new thirteen-step program to help you recover from the evil influences of too many twelve-step recovery group meetings:
1. Admit that you are powerless over twelve-step meetings -- that your life has become unmanageable. Scream and pass out.
2. Come to believe that only Santa Claus can restore you to sanity.
3. Make a decision to give all of your problems to Santa Claus, as we understand Him.
4. Turn your will and your mind over to the care of Santa Claus. They were worthless anyway. Also stick him with those pesky problems.
5. Make a searching and fearless inventory of your garage. You won't believe the junk you will find in there.
6. Confess to everyone that you can't sing, you can't dance, your butt is too fat, and you have bad breath.
7. Make yourself entirely ready to have Santa Claus fix those defects.
8. Write a letter to Santa Claus, humbly begging him to remove all of your shortcomings.
9. Make a list of all of the people you have pissed off.
10. Go piss them off again.
11. Continue to inventory your garage, and when you find that you are hoarding some really useless junk, promptly admit it.
12. Seek, through your cell phone, to maintain constant contact with Santa Claus, as we understand Him. If you can't get Him, call a psychic hotline. Do whatever the old witch says.
13. Make twenty copies of this letter, put your name at the bottom, and send them to all of your friends.
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Scratch that, I just found out that New Start Transports has worked with more than two of the Dr Phil show guests and even received an on air acknowledgement from Dr. Phil personally. I guess New Start Transports seems to be prefered by the Dr Phil show over the other youth transport services.