Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Anonymous on July 19, 2006, 09:58:28 PM
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2 People Die on Wilderness Hikes in Utah
The Associated Press
Wednesday, July 19, 2006; 10:01 AM
MOAB, Utah -- Two people have died during separate hiking trips in the rugged southern Utah desert country, one a teenager who got separated from her group in 110-degree heat, officials said.
Both victims were from the Northeast.
A 29-year-old man from New Jersey died Monday night near Boulder while taking part in a 28-day survival course offered by the Boulder Outdoor Survival School, Garfield County spokeswoman Becki Bronson said.
He was on the second day of the $3,000 course and in a group of 12 with three staff members. Temperatures were in the low 90s in the area, the National Weather Service said.
"All day Monday they were hiking in the heat with very little food or water," Bronson said. "He was complaining about lack of water and cramping and still given very little water and it was still hot."
Students are intentionally given little food or water to simulate hardship conditions.
School representatives did not immediately return a call seeking comment.
On Sunday, Elisa D. Santry, 16, of South Boston, Mass., died on the 16th day of a three-week Outward Bound Wilderness course near Canyonlands National Park. The temperature was about 110, said San Juan County Sheriff Mike Lacy.
Organizers said the girl was with five other teens, ages 16 to 18, hiking through heavy brush to reach rafts waiting for them at the Colorado River.
As they were nearing the river, she had lagged behind, possibly to wait for another hiker, the sheriff's office said Tuesday. The other hiker reached the river but Elisa did not show up. She was later found up a small side canyon, the sheriff's office said.
"There was no evidence of foul play," said Mickey Freeman, president of Outward Bound Wilderness. An autopsy was planned.
The girl had passed a medical screening before joining the program, the group said. Outward Bound canceled the remaining five days of the program, which included hiking, climbing and rafting. There were 13 other people participating, ages 16-18.
Canyonlands National Park is about 200 miles southeast of Salt Lake City, and Boulder is about 200 miles straight south.
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On the Net:
Outward Bound: http://www.outwardboundwilderness.org/ (http://www.outwardboundwilderness.org/)
Boulder Outdoor Survival: http://www.boss-inc.com/ (http://www.boss-inc.com/)
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washingtonpost.com
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Massachusetts girl dies on Outward Bound hike in Utah desert
July 19, 2006
SALT LAKE CITY --A 16-year-old Massachusetts girl has died on an Outward Bound hike in a rugged southern Utah desert in 110-degree heat.
Elisa Santry, of South Boston, died Sunday night during a hike in Lockhart Canyon in an Outward Bound Wilderness course. She was on the 16th day of a three-week outdoor course provided by the youth-adventure organization.
Outward Bound President Mickey Freeman said the girl was found with water remaining in her bottle, had passed a medical screening and had no known health problems.
Santry was with five other teens, ages 16-18, who were hiking through heavy brush to reach rafts waiting for them at the Colorado River. Outward Bound said it was trying to determine if she had stopped to wait for another hiker who had injured her ankle. The other girl made it to the river.
The group noticed Santry was missing about 6 p.m. Sunday. Her body was found up a small side canyon about a quarter mile from the Canyonlands National Park boundary.
"She may have been trying to find an easier path, but that's only speculation," Freeman said.
Sheriff Mike Lacy said the area in this part of San Juan County is rugged, sandy, and the temperature was about 110 degrees when she died.
The remainder of the course was canceled and students were returning home, Outward Bound said.
The company said more than 60,000 people participate in its programs every year.
An autopsy of Santry was conducted, but additional tests are needed, said Dr. Edward Leis, Utah's deputy chief medical examiner.
© Copyright 2006 Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.
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I hope Brooke Adams gets on this so we get accurate information.
Shall we rack up the violations of regulations as the details are revealed?
1...(7) Hiking shall not exceed the physical capability of the weakest member of the group. Hiking shall be prohibited at temperatures above 90 degrees F. or at temperatures below 10 degrees F. Field staff shall carry thermometers, which accurately display current temperature. If a consumer cannot or will not hike, the group shall not continue unless eminent danger exists.
2... (8) The expedition plan including map routes, and anticipated schedules and times shall be carried by the field staff and recorded in the field office.
3...(3) In temperatures above 80 degrees F., water shall be available for coating consumer's body, and other cooling down techniques shall be available for the purpose of cooling as needed.
Due to the difficulty of monitoring outdoor programs and the inherent dangers of the wilderness, a single violation of the foregoing life and safety rules may result in immediate revocation of the license and removal of consumers from programs pursuant to General Provisions as found in R501-1.
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Two Deaths Emphasize the Need to be Prepared in Outdoors
July 19th, 2006 @ 5:09pm
Alex Cabrero Reporting
An autopsy will tell for sure how a man died while hiking in Southern Utah; heat exhaustion is suspected. He was part of an outdoor survival school teaching clients how to survive in harsh desert conditions.
It's the type of place people go to to get away from it all, but sometimes that's the problem. If something goes wrong, you are away from it all.
Eric Spreng has bills to pay, which is why he works at REI. But if he had it his way, he'd spend most of his time outdoors.
Eric Spreng, REI: "There's always the temptation to put yourself out there and test yourself with how you're going to do against the elements."
Spreng has tested himself several times in the deserts of Southern Utah, and has great stories to share. But when he hears stories about hikers dying in the deserts, he just wonders if whatever went wrong could've been avoided.
Eric Spreng: "A lot of accidents in the backcountry, the vast majority of which are preventable."
[BOSS-"All day Monday they were hiking in the heat with very little food or water," she said. "He was complaining about lack of water and cramping and still given very little water and it was still hot." The group was in the Cottonwood Wash area about five miles northeast of Boulder. Temperatures were in the low 90s in the area, the National Weather Service said.]
Two hikers died already this week. The first, a 16-year old girl from Boston, with the group "Outward Bound" in the Lockhart Canyon area near Canyonlands National Park. The second, a 29-year old New Jersey man with the "Boulder Outdoor Survival School" near Cottonwood Wash Canyon in Garfield County.
Their deaths are still being investigated, but temperatures for the first death were in the 110 area, the second death in the 90's.
Eric Spreng: "The thing you gotta keep in mind the most is to stay hydrated."
[BOSS-?Students are not allowed to carry water bottles, but they have access to water along the route. They carry a cup. It's very well-planned out,? spokeswoman Diane Nagler said. Students are intentionally given little food or water, she said. "They simulate what it would be like if you were without water and were without food."]
Spreng says water-holding backpacks and powdered electrolyte type mixes are the best way to keep going when you're hiking.
Eric Spreng: "when you're exerting yourself in warm temperatures, you might be sweating away as much as a liter of water an hour."
Spreng also says it's okay to hike when temperatures get as hot as they've been, you just have to take extra careful.
News clip
http://cbs4boston.com/topstories/local_ ... 92413.html (http://cbs4boston.com/topstories/local_story_200092413.html)
Outward Bound is a nonprofit adventure-education organization. By their own description, Outward Bound ?offers wilderness courses that emphasize personal growth through challenge and experience and facilitate self-reliance, responsibility, teamwork, confidence, compassion, environmental and community stewardship.?
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A little common sense could have saved these lives.
The last comment reported in reference to the life and death of these two human beings, who are loved, and will be missed, is, "WE lost ONE, but WE are saving many." The "loss ratio mentality strikes again."
Who cares if 60,000 people have made it through the Outward Bound program this year? Fact is, two young lives are gone, and a little common sense, along with abiding by the guidelines in the licensing book of rules could have prevented two more preventable deaths in the desert. It is my understanding that the Utah rules and regulations governing outdoor wilderness programs states that NO ONE is supposed to be hiking in the kind of heat we have been having this past week.
We had a heat wave for a couple days at Girls Camp this year. We had plenty to eat, and were encouraged to carry our water bottles. All day.......every day!
A program must invite adaptions to the program given circumstances such as extremely hot weather. It doesn't need to be a DO or DIE experience to learn survival skills.
What a shame!
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The very sad and unforturnate deaths of these two young people is not a licensing issue in the State of Utah.
The State of Utah does not regulate VOLUNTEER programs like Outward Bound, and this survival course. There is no oversight of volunteer wilderness programs in Utah.
Again, it is "buyer beware." It was the responsibility of the parents of this teenage girl and this young man to ASK if these two programs were REGULATED OR NOT. It is doubtful if these programs offered to disclose that no one regulates them.
Maybe NOW the State of Utah will open their eyes, and pass some legislation that will regulate such programs.
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I assumed as much with the Survival School, but why wouldn't Outward Bound be regulated? Are they not considered an "Outdoor Youth Program"? There must be someone they answer to if they are serving minors.
(1) The Office of Licensing in the Department of Human Services, shall license outdoor youth programs according to standards and procedures established by this rule.
R501-8-2. Authority and Purpose.
(1) Pursuant to 62A-2-101 et seq., the purpose of this rule is to define standards and procedures by which the Office of Licensing shall license outdoor youth programs. Programs designed to provide rehabilitation services to adjudicated minors shall adhere to these rules as established by the Division of Juvenile Justice Services, in accordance with 62A-7-104-11.
"Adjudicated minors"? I just noticed that. Doesn't that imply that Wilderness Programs that don't take adjudicated youth are exempt?
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I'm not sure what these deaths have to do with the Troubled Teen Industry, since neither of these programs were either "boot camp" or "therapeutic" wilderness programs of the type usually discussed on Fornits. Some people are into adventure and some people do extreme things for their own personal reasons.
These deaths are tragic and were definitely avoidable, and the companies bear some, but I would say not all, of that liability. Some people die while skydiving, and probably some of those deaths could've been avoided by taking extra safety precautions, extra instruction of the participant, etc. But if you really want to avoid the risk of death from skydiving...well, go find something else to do to get your jollies. Same goes for voluntary wilderness adventures or any other thrill-seeking experiences.
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Wilderness programs were modeled after OB.
More evidence supporting the inherent dangers of hiking in extreme heat.
It should also demonstrate that self-regulation is not a good idea.
Had the OB group (for teens) stayed together (as required for licensed programs) the young lady wouldn't have gotten lost, and may still be alive.
Re: the Survival School- Voluntary or not, they may be reviewing how much sense it makes to withhold food and water from participants in such austere elements.
Eric Spreng: "A lot of accidents in the backcountry, the vast majority of which are preventable."
"All day Monday they were hiking in the heat with very little food or water," she said. "He was complaining about LACK OF WATER and cramping and STILL GIVEN LITTLE WATER and it was still hot."
Eric Spreng: "The thing you gotta keep in mind the most is to stay hydrated."
?Students are not allowed to carry water bottles, but they have access to water along the route. They carry a cup. It's very well-planned out,? spokeswoman Diane Nagler said. Students are intentionally given little food or water, she said. "They simulate what it would be like if you were without water and were without food."
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Boston student dies in Utah
Family questions Outward Bound hike
By James Vaznis, Globe Staff | July 20, 2006
Writing about how she wanted to conquer her shyness and build relationships, Elisa Santry of South Boston won a free spot in the Outward Bound Wilderness program this summer.
But on Sunday, the 16th day of her 22-day trip of backpacking and rafting, Santry somehow got separated from the rest of her group while on a hike in a rugged desert in 110-degree heat.
``We are anxious to get more information, but, more importantly, we are anxious to speak with the adults who were supervising her," said Mary O'Neil, an aunt. ``Who is that adult who said, `It's 110 degrees, and let's go hiking between the hours of 10 and 4?' Think about it; 110 degrees would be difficult to sit in in the shade. It's mind-boggling."
O'Neil said Santry's mother, Elisa Woods, had initially opposed her daughter's entrance into the program, fearful that something tragic would happen. The mother changed her mind at the last minute, after a mentor assigned to Santry convinced her that the trip was safe and a good opportunity. The teenager received a mentor as a part of the scholarship.
Santry's death was the second related to a program for Outward Bound in nearly three decades, said Mickey Freeman, president of the program.
In 1978, a participant fell off a rock in the Pacific Northwest, Freeman said. Other participants have died because of existing medical conditions, he said. [How many?] Santry had passed a medical screening, Freeman also said.
Outward Bound officials said they had received conflicting reports from the four teenagers who were hiking with Santry before she disappeared.
According to some accounts, Santry, who would have been a junior this fall at the O'Bryant School, and the other teenagers had hiked into an area with brush so thick they had to push through it with their hands.
They were hiking one-quarter of a mile to the Colorado River to go rafting, and an instructor was waiting for them at the river for the rafting excursion. Some students said they realized that Santry was missing after they emerged from the brush. Others, however said they were not sure whether Santry had in fact followed them into the thick brush near the river.
The sheriff's office in San Juan County released a statement saying that Santry had stayed behind to wait for a girl who had injured her ankle. Outward Bound officials disputed that account. They said the injured girl had been evacuated before Santry and the other teenagers reached the last leg of the hike.
In response to the questioning of Santry's aunt, Freeman said the students had been hiking in normal temperatures for that time of year, in a typical activity.
``Something happened, but we don't know what," he said.
The program encourages a buddy system, but Freeman said students sometimes travel by themselves, at their own pace, especially in the latter days of a long trip. Santry did not have an assigned buddy.
http://www.boston.com/news/local/articl ... s_in_utah/ (http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2006/07/20/boston_student_dies_in_utah/)
Outward Bound Wilderness instructors waited for five hours - until after they found the body of a South Boston girl who had gone missing in 110-degree heat - before calling for help, the not-for-profit?s president said yesterday.
The family of 16-year-old Elisa D. Santry wants to know why she was hiking in that heat and why she was left alone.
?It?s not fair. It?s not right,? said her brother, Steve Woods. ?When I went to summer camp, there was a staff person at the front of the group, in the middle and at the back to make sure no one was left behind . . . In 110-degree weather, why would they let those children wander??
The group was on its 16th day of a 22-day course, during which Santry had written her mother to complain that some of the other students were bullying her, Freeman said. It was unclear yesterday whether that had anything to do with her disappearance.
http://news.bostonherald.com/localRegio ... eid=149088 (http://news.bostonherald.com/localRegional/view.bg?articleid=149088)
The mother of a 16-year-old South Boston girl who died while hiking in Utah last Sunday said her only daughter would be alive if the Outward Bound Wilderness program didn't allow her to hike alone.
``As far as I'm concerned, it's neglect," said Elisa Woods, the mother of Elisa Santry Woods, who later recalled the difficult pregnancy and premature birth of her daughter.
For large chunks of time that Sunday, instructors of Outward Bound Wilderness allowed students to hike without adult supervision, sometimes alone, said Mickey Freeman, the organization's president. He said it's not uncommon for teenagers to hike by themselves, noting that the program is designed to teach responsibility, confidence, and self-reliance.
``We are mourning with the mother for this situation, but it would be complete speculation on what may or may not have saved her daughter's life," he said. ``Something went wrong. We don't know what. We want to find out as much as the family does."
Hiking in temperatures above 90 degrees and allowing youth to travel alone goes against Utah state regulations for wilderness programs that troubled youth are mandated to attend. But those regulations don't apply to Outward Bound Wilderness because it's a voluntary program open to all youth, said Ken Stettler, director of the Office of Licensing for the Utah Department of Human Services.
``All we can do is regulate the youth treatment programs, not the recreation programs. Otherwise, we would have been on those guys before," he said, referring to Outward Bound Wilderness. [Yeh, right!]
He also believes Outward Bound Wilderness waited too long to call professional emergency workers. ``Maybe they could have revived her," he said.
http://tinyurl.com/252ero (http://tinyurl.com/252ero)
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Why the hell is that even on this forum?
Why on earth do people go hike through the woods for therapy? Unless its something you ENJOY doing (and this was obviously not for enjoyment) and doing enjoyable things to let go and relax for 'therapy', hiking through the woods/desert/wilderness isn't therapy.
Suffering and isolation, however, is a good way to 'break down' people... so no wonder its a prereq for RTS's and often used as a standalone 'BM' treatment. (see BRATCAMP eps if you have to see it and cant 'get it').
Oh well, Im sure I'll get flamed by some trekkers or tree-huggers. :roll:
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some people do enjoy it (hiking), and a lot think outdoors activity is good/healthy. etc. and a good number of people want the challenge of doing something new and meeting and conquering new personal challenges.
check it and you will see that OB doesn't want unwiling participants.
perhaps you prefer indoors stuff.
but i guess it is on this because someone died while on a hike in a program -- perhaps not a therapeutic program, but an organized activity. funny that 2 people in a couple of decades and out of hundreds of thousands of participants die and someone here gets bent, but not about those killed in cars each year. lets ban auto racing because people may get hurt or die
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some people do enjoy it (hiking), and a lot think outdoors activity is good/healthy. etc. and a good number of people want the challenge of doing something new and meeting and conquering new personal challenges.
check it and you will see that OB doesn't want unwiling participants.
perhaps you prefer indoors stuff.
but i guess it is on this because someone died while on a hike in a program -- perhaps not a therapeutic program, but an organized activity. funny that 2 people in a couple of decades and out of hundreds of thousands of participants die and someone here gets bent, but not about those killed in cars each year. lets ban auto racing because people may get hurt or die
Im fine with that, but you clearly didnt read my post or havent been here a long time.
My problem is with it being FORCED UPON PEOPLE, and, BEING USED AS A MEANS TO MENTALLY BREAK THEM DOWN. Clear enough for you?
And, uh, btw, its more than 2 people in a couple decades. The elements, accidents (due to gravity...) disease, abuse from the staffers of the mindfuck type hike trips and animals like bears take their toll. But you know what? Someone out there for fun who knows the risks and is with profesionals is fine.
Someone not being given enough water by a retard, and there is NEVER an excuse to ration water, BTW, or using this as a means to isolate and break down children physically and emotionally, are bad things, and there is no excuse for it, period.
BTW, why is it I had to enumerate this anyway? I clearly stated what I meant in my previous post unless you simply have low reading compreshension, and the first thing you do is give a statement that reads like a press release with the word challenge used TWICE!
Then use a risky hobby that Im known to enjoy to justify it.. when I never attacked it in the first place.
Hiking is Hiking, its not therapy - clear enough?
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When parents start sending kids "to the race track to drive cars round-and-round-and-round the track at 100 mph" and call that THERAPY...then we can talk about RACE CAR DRIVING, OK?
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When parents start sending kids "to the race track to drive cars round-and-round-and-round the track at 100 mph" and call that THERAPY...then we can talk about RACE CAR DRIVING, OK?
IT IS FOR ME!!!!!! :D
But then again its a lot less dangerous than it would be driving TO the track, just like flying in planes is safer than driving to the airport.
:roll:
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One of the victims was 29 years old. He was hardly a child, and I would be pressed to foist of responsibility for his death on another. A 29 year old man knows well enough when he has had enough. If he allowed himself to be egged on to keep going then his death is on his own head.
The 16 year old girl is a tragic loss. However, as part of a voluntary Outward Bound course that is basically a rough and tumble version of a summer camp I am still grasping at straws here as to see why this is on this forum. Of course who am I to say much considering I post things like the Asshole test. However, in all seriousness comparing an Outward Bound summer camp to a wilderness treatment program is a huge stretch. The girl was not forced to go to the program, and nor what their any intention of the 3 week trip being theraputic either.
However, that does not dismiss the Outward Bound Staff from being responsible for her death. Did they deliberately kill her? No I don't think that was the case at all. I do think they were negligent, but that is not saying the killed her on purpose. Basically they fucked up and now they will have to live with that for the rest of their lives. Personally, I would not bother bring charges up against the staff in that situation, but it would be the last wilderness expedition they participated in as staff.
They intentionally withheld water.
You do NOT do that shit in the fucking desert. Their incompetence resulted in death, thats something you have to do something about!
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Something will be done about it I am sure. However, incompetence does not automatically make the result murder or even manslaughter.
Id think DONT WITHOLD WATER IN THE DESERT would be something they'd teach staff pretty fucking well.
If I run someone over because Im an incompetent driver would I get off easy? Nope...
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Elisa Santry, of South Boston, died Sunday night during a hike in Lockhart Canyon in an Outward Bound Wilderness course. She was on the 16th day of a three-week outdoor course provided by the youth-adventure organization.
Outward Bound President Mickey Freeman said the girl was found with water remaining in her bottle, had passed a medical screening and had no known health problems.
Santry was with five other teens, ages 16-18, who were hiking through heavy brush to reach rafts waiting for them at the Colorado River. Outward Bound said it was trying to determine if she had stopped to wait for another hiker who had injured her ankle. The other girl made it to the river
It does not seem to me that she was denied water if their was water found in her water bottle. If anything she was not properly supervised for the signs of dehydration that apparently overtook her and led her to become confused about her location.
Note two items: Her medical screen showed no known health problems and two water was found in her water bottle.
The imcompetence is in the supervision, not something that did not happen as you claimed.
The 29 year old man should have been smart enough to say fuck it when he had a chance. Yet he didn't. His life was in his own hands, not the hands of anyone else.
Students are intentionally given little food or water to simulate hardship conditions.
Hello?
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A 29-year-old man from New Jersey died Monday night near Boulder while taking part in a 28-day survival course offered by the Boulder Outdoor Survival School, Garfield County spokeswoman Becki Bronson said.
He was on the second day of the $3,000 course and in a group of 12 with three staff members. Temperatures were in the low 90s in the area, the National Weather Service said.
"All day Monday they were hiking in the heat with very little food or water," Bronson said. "He was complaining about lack of water and cramping and still given very little water and it was still hot."
Students are intentionally given little food or water to simulate hardship conditions
This is for an entire different incident and entirely different program than the one involving the 16 year old girl. Again I find that the responsibility of the death of the 29 year old rests with the 29 year old who voluntarily went on the expedition. At 29 years old most of us know when to say we have had enough.
He didn't, and now he is he is dead, and further, it's his own damn fault.
All day Monday they were hiking in the heat with very little food or water," Bronson said. "He was complaining about lack of water and cramping and still given very little water and it was still hot."
Then how else do you say youve had enough?
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YO Fucksticks! Give me water now, and while you are at it.. point me in the direction of the nearest Titty Bar because this course blows ass!
Right, youre going to get pissy to people youre completely dependant on? And what if they said "no, fuck you sissy boy".
You forget just how much most people tend to defer and do as told. If youre a professional you should know what to do, and do it. Hes not the only one who fucked up.
Sure, Id mug someone for food and water at the drop of the hat, but Im a hair triggered jackass looking for an excuse to beat someones face in, and Im not most people. Plus assault charges can be a bitch :roll:
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Well then him being unable to say he needed water and directions to a titty bar are still his won damn fault. It looks to me that him being unable to take care of himself cost him his own life.
"He was complaining about lack of water and cramping and still given very little water and it was still hot."
He did, and he still wasnt given any.
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Then it is still on his head. He surrendered his free will to the man. It's his own damn fault he wasn't made of stern enough stuff to say, "Wait a fucking second. I want water, and I want medical treatment, and I want them right god damn now, or you are all going to see my lawyer in court."
He was a 29 year old man with nothing forcing him to attend, or keeping him in attendance. He surrendered himself to the "Big Brother knows best" mentality and for his choice he paid the ultimate price. At 29 years old you have to have it in you by then to make decisions for yourself. If you can't do that then you are always and forever more going to be a victim of the "Big Brother" mentality, and natural selection has its own cruel way of balancing the scales both genetically and socially.
This applies directly to program employees as well.
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3 Springs,
You are correct. Outward Bound is completely voluntary and, in fact, the particular course that this child was on will not take a kid with any emotional or behavioral problems whatsoever. It is a rough but ehilarating journey. Was the staff negligent- maybe. Does this story belong on Fornits on the Troubled Teen Industry thread- no.
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As for the teen, who sold her on the idea that OB would cure her of ?shyness? and ?build relationships??
?The group was on its 16th day of a 22-day course, during which Santry had written her mother to complain that some of the other students were bullying her, Freeman said.?
?The program encourages a buddy system, but Freeman said students sometimes travel by themselves, at their own pace, especially in the latter days of a long trip. Santry did not have an assigned buddy.?
I?d like to hear more about that. Was she the weakest participant? To what degree was she bullied/ harassed? Could that be why she didn?t opt out? Is this a course for ?Survival? maniac wannabes?
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As for the Skydiving analogy- Would it be cool with you if someone opened a ?survival? skydiving school where random chutes are designed not to open so you can learn what to do in that particular crisis? Is there a limit to what people can subject other people to for profit or ego?
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BOSS
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/95 ... etail.html (http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/9561271/detail.html)
The group of 12 students and three instructors left a water source at 9 a.m. last Sunday and hiked all day in high temperatures without additional water. The group was several hundred yards from water when Dave Bushow passed out and died at about 7:30 p.m.
As his brother stated:
"The whole point is to teach them how to survive. But this is like rule No. 1 of what you don't do: Hike in the hot sun all day without water. He paid $3,000 to learn skills, not to be tortured to death," he said.
The expert quoted said, "when you're exerting yourself in warm temperatures, you might be sweating away as much as a liter of water an hour."
10 hours without water in 100+ degrees, requesting water, being denied, and you feel this outfit has no responsibility in this man?s death? He knew what he needed, asked for it and was denied.
?At BOSS, we teach you how to survive with technique, not technology. We place an emphasis on the skills that can provide shelter, water, fire, food, clothing, etc. without the need to carry a 60-pound backpack. As the saying goes, Know more, carry less."
Okay, then why take people to an area where there is no water to be found, where the staff are in charge of the water and with determining when a participant needs water? How do you teach people how to ?find? water in a place where there IS NOT WATER? The way one ?survives? the Utah desert is to take ample water and drink every 30 minutes. THAT?S the survival ?technique?.
We teach how indigenous cultures around the world have survived in harmony with the land for thousands of years. If you want a "Boot Camp" or "Rambo" experience, please consider something else. If you want to learn a softer path through the wilderness ?? a path that teaches how to create a positive impact on the land around you ?? please consider joining us at BOSS. For Field and Explorer Courses, this means hiking, climbing, and sweating during your time on the trail.
Climbing, hiking, sweating? when do they tell you that you?ll be denied water and food? They guy knew what he needed and asked for it as should be clear in this article.
July 25, 2006
Deprived of water, man dies
By Heather Yakin
Times Herald-Record
www.rememberdave.net (http://www.rememberdave.net) - with pictures: Dave holding baby niece Kayla; Dave and Rob blowing out birthday-cake candles a week before Dave left.
The family is left with these photos, and with grief and anger.
"He was aware of what he needed, and these people deprived him of it," Rob Buschow said. "As far as I'm concerned, they watched him die and they let him die."
http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_4091082 (http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_4091082)
"This is not an easy course," said Doug Ritter, a wilderness survival expert who edits Equipped to Survive, a publication that reviews survival equipment. "It is designed to stress individuals. Now, the difficulty arises, of course, in determining when somebody is stressed past the breaking point."
"The perceived risk of a BOSS field course is typically much higher than the actual risk," Bernstein said.
"There's a very fine line between a facilitated survival experience and a true survival experience," he added. "And our job is to keep the student on the facilitated side."
"They have a good reputation," said Henry Wood, the accreditation program manager for the Association for Experiential Education, which accredits outdoor schools like Outward Bound. "But they are a little bit out to themselves."
Bernstein, who is the host of the History Channel's "Digging for the Truth," acknowledges that the risk is part of what has made BOSS so successful.
"Once you've completed 'impact' and completed the course, you look back and say, 'I don't know if I would do it again, but I'm eternally grateful for having completed the challenge."'
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This topic absolutely belongs in this forum.
As for ties to the Industry...
From the BOSS website:
Traditional Living & Survival Skills Since 1968
Our program got its start in the late 1960's with a man named Larry Dean Olsen, the noted author of Outdoor Survival Skills. Larry felt that our society had lost its edge when it came to facing and overcoming the pressures of modern life. Mental toughness and the ability to adapt to harsh conditions were no longer common character traits. To deal with this situation, Larry created a wilderness program featuring specific physical and mental obstacles that would produce more adaptable and resourceful people.
In 1980, this program was incorporated as the Boulder Outdoor Survival School, establishing the foundation for a new and exciting venture in outdoor education. In 1985, David Wescott took over the reigns as owner. At this point, BOSS already had a reputation for offering a tough physical challenge to its students. Wescott grew the program to include teaching the traditional skills of the local Puebloan cultures (such as the Anasazi and Fremont,) adding more integrity to the program, as much of what we know about Southern Utah comes from these cultures. He hired instructors who appreciated the history and legacy of indigenous people and who could teach the skills of so-called "primitive" cultures to modern outdoor enthusiasts.
By 1990, in addition to its world-famous Field Courses, BOSS was offering Skills Courses focusing just on traditional skills. With topics ranging from edible plants to pottery to stone tools, students had the opportunity to explore the world of primitive skills in greater depth than the Field Courses allowed, in an environment free from the hardships of extreme hiking.
In 1994, BOSS alumnus and past staff member Josh Bernstein returned to BOSS as Marketing and Administrative Director and opened new offices in Boulder, Colorado. Combining his degree in anthropology with an international perspective, Josh restructured the BOSS curriculae to include a greater emphasis on traditional cultures and recreated BOSS's marketing plan to reach a broader audience. As a result, BOSS attracted a tremendous amount of exciting media exposure which has helped bring the mission and vision of BOSS to millions of people all over the world. However, even with all the exposure, BOSS remains committed to its cause: To provide courses which challenge people to learn about themselves and grow through adversity. To show how ancient knowledge and wisdom still have a place in our modern daily lives.
[Depriving people of water when there is no water to be found IS NOT "ancient wisdom".]
37 years later, BOSS is still based on its "Know more, Carry less" philosophy. Its course offering is broader, its staff is larger, but each course still brings to life the traditional skills of native cultures. While Larry has not been invovled since 1980, Larry's legacy lives on.
For more information about what BOSS courses are NOT (which helps some people understand what they ARE), please click here.
:question: AND WHO IS LARRY DEAN OLSEN and DAVE WESCOTT?
Founders of Modern Wilderness Movement Honored in ?Clan of the Hand? Ceremony
Redcliff Ascent
Enterprise, Utah
800-898-1244
www.redcliffascent.com (http://www.redcliffascent.com)
By Mitch Cole, Information Manager, mitchc@redcliffascent.com,
RedCliff Ascent recently held a ribbon cutting ceremony at the Outpost, a newly developed skills camp that will also serve as a graduation facility and ceremonial area. In keeping with the ceremonial intent, an authentic replica of a Chaco-era Kiva has been built on site. Many hours of labor went into the rock laying and backfilling, and the end result is breathtaking: a true representation of what an ancient Kiva was really like.
In conjunction with the completion of the Outpost project, RedCliff established the "Clan of the Hand", an honor society of the men and women who have made the most significant impact in the industry of working with troubled youth in a wilderness setting. The first honorees were the five most influential men behind the modern wilderness movement: Larry Dean Olsen, Ezekiel Sanchez, Dave Wescott, Doug Nelson, and Larry Wells. Each honoree was presented with a beautiful chief's blanket and taken to the Kiva for a special ceremony inducting them into the "Clan of the Hand". There, they left their handprints in red ochre on the stones of honor inside the Kiva.
Larry Dean Olsen, a graduate of BYU with a degree in Education, is the author of numerous articles and the book Outdoor Survival Skills, which has been on the bestseller list for over 30 years. He is also a founding member of the National Association of Therapeutic Wilderness Camps, and the ANASAZI Foundation, a non-profit wilderness treatment program for troubled teens and their parents. Most of us in the wilderness field recognize Larry Dean Olsen as the "father" of the modern wilderness movement.
Currently Larry Dean Olsen runs ANASAZI with Ezekiel Sanchez. Ezekiel, the oldest of 16 children, attended BYU on a scholarship where he met Larry Dean Olsen, who invited him to participate in a wilderness survival course that Larry had organized. Ezekiel's talents for wilderness survival were quickly appreciated and Larry invited him to join him on his staff. Ezekiel worked with many BYU survival groups, and later also taught seminary classes at a Navajo reservation in Arizona. He acted as the Director of training at the Missionary Training Center in Provo. He and Larry Dean Olsen established the ANASAZI Foundation in 1989, and to this day they are still involved in its operations. Ezekiel and his wife Pauline were named the Arizona Parents of the Year in 2001, and won the Excellence in Parenting 2002 National Award from the National Parents Day Council.
Larry Wells was first introduced to the wilderness concept through his own experiences as a former inmate in the Idaho Corrections System. Early on Larry realized the therapeutic value of the outdoors and began to work hard to make outdoor therapy a viable alternative to incarceration after his release. Ultimately he became the volunteer coordinator for Volunteers in Corrections in Idaho. After Larry Wells read Larry Dean Olsen's Outdoor Survival Skills, he was so impressed that he contacted him and sought advice on how to start an outdoor program in Idaho. He began a non-profit program to help corrections youth and began taking youthful offenders out in the wilderness to help them work out their issues. Larry Wells worked with many youth programs through the years doing contract work. In 1988, Larry began Wilderness Conquest, now called Wilderness Quest. Larry Wells has helped thousands of youth achieve better lives through his efforts.
Dave Wescott was first exposed to the Wilderness program idea through Larry Dean Olsen's "480" course at BYU. He rapidly developed an interest and began helping to run programs for the BYU outdoor department then eventually went on to the University of Colorado where he finished his graduate work. Then he went to Stillwater, Oklahoma to develop a National Indian Recreation Training Program and worked there for two years before moving to Rick's College to head the new Outdoor Department. Five years later he struck out on his own, purchasing the Boulder Outdoor Survival School (BOSS) from longtime friend, Doug Nelson. Dave ran BOSS for 12 years, ran the first Aspen Health Services therapeutic program, and also helped create the Alta Training Systems to develop a national standard for youth program instructors. Dave still runs the Rabbit Stick events and has a turn of the century village, which teaches skills such as blacksmithing, timber framing, and boat building, at Teton, Idaho.
Doug Nelson got involved in the BYU 480 program in 1971and stayed with it until it was no longer offered. He began Boulder Outdoor Survival School in the spring of 1978, running it successfully until he sold it 8 years later to Dave Wescott. He also began Aspen Achievement Academy along with some friends and colleagues: Keith Hooker, and Doug Cloward. Doug has given numerous lectures and workshops on Wilderness Survival/Treatment programs.
There is no way we can completely tell the tale of all the many thousands of lives these men have touched or the significance of the impact they have had on the wilderness industry as a whole. The best we can do is say a heartfelt "Thank You" and express our deepest gratitude for a job well done, and for lives which have exemplified service in its highest form. The Clan of the Hand ceremony was truly a moving experience for all who participated, and holds a special place in the history of RedCliff Ascent.
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I personally like to have facts before I jump to any conclusions. Regarding the 16-yr old girl, I have read here that she was hiking 1/4 mile with several other students to reach the Colorado River where the group was supposed to go rafting. I have read speculation that she may have been waiting for another girl, and that the other girl did make it to the river. I have read that the girl who died was found with water in her possession.
I have no way of determining which if any of these "facts" are true, but if some or all of them are true, I have a lot of questions about what really happened in this tragic situation.
Where I live, the temperatures this time of year are even hotter than in the Canyonlands area of Utah. That doesn't prevent many people here from being outdoors, walking around, skateboarding or exerting themselves in other ways that exceed the physical stress of a 1/4 mile hike. Of course, maintaining hydration is essential.
If this girl was left alone, unsupervised by properly trained staff, was the program negligent? Perhaps. Does the girl also share some responsibility in what happened? I have no way of forming an educated opinion on that without confirmation of all the facts, but I accept the possibility that she may have made some choices that contributed to this tragedy.
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It was 6:00 when they noticed her missing. The ¼ mile hike to the river was the ?last leg of the hike?. How far had they hiked prior to the ?last leg??
So, she was found with water in her possession. Does that ensure that she?d had adequate water for the day? 6 quarts + electrolytes, as recommended by experts. Enough to replace the quart per hour she lost by sweating? It?s quiet possible that she had little all day and was given that bottle before beginning the ?last leg? of the hike. Someone needs to interview the other participants. If I were the parents I?d be asking names and numbers.
She apparently wasn?t waiting for the injured girl- ?The sheriff's office in San Juan County released a statement saying that Santry had stayed behind to wait for a girl who had injured her ankle. Outward Bound officials disputed that account. They said the injured girl had been evacuated before Santry and the other teenagers reached the last leg of the hike.?
It was stated that they frequently hike alone that far into the program. She was clearly unsupervised. Didn't have a buddy. Was it negligent to allow a 16 year old to be in that situation? Guess we?ll all have different opinions, but is that what you?d want for your child? Yes, she may have ignorantly made some fatal ?choices?, but being dehydrated, suffering from heat exhaustion, could?ve contributed to her ?choices?.
Do participants and parents fully understand the inherent risks? Not the understanding that comes from signing a waiver, that?s expected even with summer camps. I?m talking about details of the program and the real risks involved.
Why don't they put leg bands on them so they can track them, like the ones used for criminals? Is there a back up plan in the event that someone becomes disoriented due to dehydration and wonders into danger?
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All valid points Deborah, and I guess I'm saying I personally want to reserve judgement at this point because I don't know the answers to the questions you raised. Yes, if it were my child that died, I'd be demanding a whole lot of information and explanations.
There is a big difference between withholding water and providing water that someone chooses not to drink. There is a difference between hiking at the pace of the slowest member and urging everyone to "keep up." The lack of supervision really bothers me, and I believe there may be some liability there. But that depends on the terms of the agreement and the specifics of phrases like "safety precautions." If it were stated in writing and known up front that there are, say, 3 staffers for a group of 8 participants, and that there would be periods of time in which participants are not directly visible to staffers, that might make a difference in terms of who is liable and to what extent. For all we know, it's possible that this girl intentionally took a detour to check out a point of interest, thinking she'd be right back and at the river in time to avoid delaying the group.
I am a strong believer in regulating the Troubled Teen industry and eliminating institutionalized child abuse, which is why I like reading the posts here. But I am also a strong believer in individual rights and personal freedom, including the freedom to take certain risks in my own pursuit of recreation. I have done a lot of things in the outdoors with friends that could have resulted in injury or death -- hiking, camping, off-roading, etc. I would not expect any of my friends to be held responsible if something bad happened to me, as long as it were truly accidental -- no malice or reckless disregard for my safety by anyone in the group.
At times, I have paid others to provide me the opportunity to enjoy risky outdoor activities like snow skiing. It would piss me off if, for example, ski resorts started requiring all skiers and snowboarders to wear helmets simply to reduce their legal liability. I don't want to wear a helmet, I accept the risk associated with that, and I value the freedom to make that personal choice.
All I'm saying is that to me, the circumstances of this girl's death are not so black and white and at this point I think it's unfair to assign blame.
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While it MAY be a fun experience, Do these people, does anyone here, REALLY believe that 2 weeks in the wild is going to miraculously cure "kids who are socially insecure, academically challenged, in economic need, suffering from poor self-esteem or a learning disability, or have undergone abuse."
"I kiyaked, hiked, mountain biked, fished... now I'm secure, able to study and learn, am not distressed about my family's economic challenges."
What's the REAL purpose?
June 2006
campWILD
BYU outdoor program gives kids confidence through paddling
David is in the awkward giraffe stage of adolescence?legs long and skinny, torso not quite caught up yet. He smiles shyly when I ask him about his favorite CampWILD experience. ?Rafting down the Salmon?and I flipped my first pancake!? he says.
CampWILD is run by the Wilderness Instruction and Leadership Development Foundation, a non-profit for kids who are socially insecure, academically challenged, in economic need, suffering from poor self-esteem or a learning disability, or have undergone abuse. ?These kids are ?at risk of becoming at-risk,?? explains CampWILD co-founder Verle Duerden.
The camp is located in Shoup, Idaho, and is run in conjunction with Brigham Young University?s outdoor recreation department, which is researching the impact of outdoor recreation on self-confidence. ?When people have an overwhelming mastery experience, they finish and think, ?Wow, now I can do anything,?? says BYU professor of recreation management Mark Widmer.
During the two-week sessions, the 24 campers sample whitewater rafting and kayaking on the Main Salmon, as well as backpacking, mountain biking, survival skills and fly fishing. The activities are designed to foster teamwork and core values such as respect, integrity, kindness and gratitude. The paddling portion is conducted under the close supervision of licensed guides, giving the campers the opportunity to guide the boats themselves. Counselors are volunteer university students, with a ratio of two counselors for every three campers.
Thanks to donations, campers pay just $25 to attend the camp. ?We want all kids who need to be here to be able to come, regardless of economic need,? says Stacy Taniguchi, a BYU professor and cofounder of the program.
On the last night of CampWILD, campers join in with their ?coaches? for a rousing rendition of the camp song around the campfire. Awards are handed out, and boys launch into a steady stream of personal testimonials. ?I love how we were always encouraged to do stuff,? says Andrew. ?Before I came here, I knew nothing about some of the things we did,? adds Chandler. Then Sam, an intense, athletic, typically quiet boy stands up. His words bring applause and more than one tear to counselors? eyes: ?I just want to say I love you all?CampWILD rocks!? Info: (800) 453-1482.
?Irene Middleman Thomas
http://www.paddlermagazine.com/issues/2 ... _287.shtml (http://www.paddlermagazine.com/issues/2006_3/article_287.shtml)
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I fully support your right and anyone else?s to take risks. Not the argument. I've taken a number myself. There are usually signs posted or participants are otherwise warned that they are participating in a given activity ?at their own risk?.
On the other hand, When someone takes money to TEACH someone a skill, particularly, HOW TO SURVIVE in the goddamn desert, then they do hold some responsibility, when they control and deny what the participant needs in order to stay safe, alive. Or when they take ignorant city kids into a dangerous situation without adequate precaution.
Would you feel the same way if your ?friends? took you to the desert, hiked you all day in 100+ degrees, while denying you water (and food)when you complained of thirst and cramps? Would your friends behavior, in that case, be considered malicious or reckless? Would you still consider them ?friends?, provided you survived the ordeal? If you don?t answer yes, I?m writing you off as a troll.
Bottomline, if you have something a person needs to survive and deny them, you have caused the death. Can it be any clearer? I don't care what kind of waiver you sign, I guarentee you, no one that signs that document believes for a second that they are going to be denied water when they are in dire need.
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The 28-Day Field Course
http://www.boss-inc.com/0228day.html (http://www.boss-inc.com/0228day.html)
Excerpts:
Leaving the high tech, modern world behind, you explore the desert washes and mountain trails with little more than a knife, a water bottle, a blanket, and a poncho.
What water bottle? The spokesperson said, ?Students are not allowed to carry water bottles, but they have access to water along the route. They carry a cup. It's very well-planned out,? spokeswoman Diane Nagler said. Students are intentionally given little food or water, she said. "They simulate what it would be like if you were without water and were without food."
DECEPTIVE MARKETING?
The 28-Day Standard Field Course is the oldest and most popular course BOSS offers. It has been designed over the last 37 years to test a student ? physically, mentally and emotionally ? and to provide him or her with an extended traditional living experience.
Was there a transistion from an "extended traditional living experience" to a "survival" course? And what's traditional about hiking in the desert in 100* temps without water. Any traditional (native) person would call you a stupid white person.
IMPACT-A fast-moving, minimal-equipment hike through the desert. No food and water except what you find. No blankets or ponchos until Group Ex.
It was his second day, so he must have still been on Impact. No food/water the first two days. Might they save that for after the person is acclimated? After they have built up to eating less? When it's not 100+ degees? And WHERE do they "find" water except at the drops?
Found this in the Risk section:
There's also an added element of risk to BOSS Field Courses ? Impact. As far as we know, there is no other program which will purposely put you in a position where you must hike under adverse conditions (hot, bright days or cold, dark nights) with little or no food and water. And this is done during the first few days of the course ? when we really don't know that much about you or your physical fitness.
This woman apparently didn't understand the risk involved:
Tabb, two instructors and nine other students were trying to find their way off a mountain to a water source below, according to the lawsuit. The two guides, the suit alleges, could not find a standard way down and decided to have the group downclimb without climbing equipment into a slot canyon.
She left with a broken hip, a broken leg, three broken ribs and a dislocated shoulder.
"The negligence and gross negligence of BOSS and BOSS guides was not a risk assumed ... by (Tabb)."
http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_4091082 (http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_4091082)
Let's take a look at the realities of Impact:
Now, with little more than a 1.5 mile test run, we gear up and head off for a desert hike. No food, no water except that which we come across. Your clothing is limited to what's on your body ? no blanket, no poncho, nothing really substantial. The goal is to live in the moment with a group of strangers, exploring the wilderness and what it has to offer.
Of course, some responses to Impact are expected. Nausea, light-headedness, aches, pains, hunger, cramps, thirst, etc. are all common responses to not having food or water while hiking. But these symptoms can be reduced through proper preparation before the course and managed with proper feedback during the course. Again, the most significant risk and the greatest unknown on the trail is you. Tell us about yourself and how you're doing on a course, and a lot of the risks of Impact can be eliminated.
With feedback lots of the risks can be eliminated? So, why was he denied water? Who is reponsible for dx'ing dehydration/ heat exhaustion? Is there a sure-fire field test?
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I'm with you 100%. I'm just saying we don't know what happened out there.
A couple real examples of risk vs. responsibility in my own life to let you know where I'm coming from. I have been off-roading with people who knew pretty well my skill level and capabilities of the machine I was on. There have been times they have encouraged me to try things (hill climbs, rock crawling, etc.) that stretched my skills, but I felt were ok to try, and where I felt a little unsafe but wanted to use the opportunity to improve my skill. When I fell, rolled, cut a tire on a sharp rock, etc. I didn't blame them. On the other hand, if I ran out of gas and they all said "sorry dude, you can walk back to camp" I would definitely be pissed and no longer consider them friends.
A different example -- paying someone serious money to go helicopter skiing in the back country. In that case you're relying on a "professional" guide to assess your abilities and desires, choose the appropriate way down the mountain and keep you safe from things like avalanches. If he screws up and bad things happen, he bears some responsibility, but so do I.
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Are you related to Who?
How old are you? Obviously older than 16, and I?d guess way more experienced in the world of ?risk taking? than this ?shy?, NJ city girl.
You?re just not getting my point.
Your ?helicopter skiing? guide (whatever the hell that is) did not withhold what you needed to survive, water, supervision, a buddy.
A ?mistake? is one thing- a poorly designed program is another. These people are there, have paid, to learn something, not be put in life-threatening situations and denied what they need to survive.
No way in hell would I send a bunch of city kids into the desert alone without a guide, or at the very least, walkie-talkies. And I don't understand or condone the mentality of people who would.
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I'm amazed. This is the same group of people who condone letting a reckless kid "learn it on the streets" instead of removing them from their peer group. The chances of a kid dying at Outward Bound---a totally voluntary and normally extraordinarily safe program----are slimmer than that same kid crossing the street in Manhattan at any given time. Outward Bound is not a therapeutic program. Accidents happen. Outward Bound never witholds water, in reality, the kids are forced to drink more water than they feel they need. We don't know what happened out there. She could have had a seizure...from something totally unrelated to the heat. She could have had an undetected heart defect. I would prefer to send my kid to Outward Bound rather than giving her the car keys. Do the kids that are getting ready to be sent to a WWASP program and stick to the "evil" programs. You might save one from a truly abusive program. Watering this thread down with ridiculous accusations about a voluntary summer camp is counter-productive.
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Are you related to Who?
How old are you? Obviously older than 16, and I?d guess way more experienced in the world of ?risk taking? than this ?shy?, NJ city girl.
You?re just not getting my point.
I really am trying to get your point -- which is, I think, that if this girl was denied water, forced to hike in extreme heat, or in some way ignored by the people she paid for this adventure, then something criminal has happened here and those responsible must be held accountable. I'm also asking are you sure that's really how it went down? I am old enough to have a 16 year old of my own, and in many ways the risks I took at that age were much greater than the ones I take now. Please don't invalidate my opinion just because I'm not a teen or young adult. No, I'm not related to Who.
Your ?helicopter skiing? guide (whatever the hell that is) did not withhold what you needed to survive, water, supervision, a buddy.
Very true. He was paid a lot of money to take a small group of people in a helicopter to the top of a remote snow-covered mountain for an amazing skiing experience. It is a lot riskier than skiing at a regular ski resort (Aspen, Vail, etc.) and every year people die doing this in places like Alberta, British Columbia and probably Utah. Still, I'm glad that our lawsuit-happy society has not shut down all such businesses, because there are lots of us who are crazy enough to pay big money for that kind of rush.
A ?mistake? is one thing- a poorly designed program is another. These people are there, have paid, to learn something, not be put in life-threatening situations and denied what they need to survive.
I totally agree.
No way in hell would I send a bunch of city kids into the desert alone without a guide, or at the very least, walkie-talkies. And I don't understand or condone the mentality of people who would.
Again, I totally agree. I just don't know if that's what happened here. I also agree that businesses involved in high-risk adventures have a responsibility to make sure they don't accept someone who is not prepared for it and to make sure that all participants truly understand the risks. Not every shy girl from NJ is equipped to deal with the desert or river rafting, even with professional guides, personal training, adequate food & water, etc. Just like not every snow skier is prepared for back-country helicopter skiing. I just don't want to see all such risk-taking opportunities removed from those who ARE prepared, who are willing to take those risks, and who get their natural high from doing this kind of crazy sh*t.
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Come on TSW, this guy may have been 29 years old, but he surely had no idea what was happening to him. He asked for help and these jerks denied him BASIC HELP. He sat there and died. Have a little bit of a fucking heart. No one deserves to die for the lack of a glass of water. GEEZ.
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When parents start sending kids "to the race track to drive cars round-and-round-and-round the track at 100 mph" and call that THERAPY...then we can talk about RACE CAR DRIVING, OK?
When parents simply SEND THEIR KIDS INTO MORDOR then we can talk about how ONE DOES NOT SIMPLY WALK INTO MORDOR, OK?
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Just remember, they're not gay
They're hobbits!
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http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=259462#259462 (http://wwf.fornits.com/viewtopic.php?p=259462#259462)
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I still say the 29 year old dude was a moron. I'll be the asshole and say it..
genetic selection is a bitch.
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I'd've taken a fuckin rock.. a sharp one.. and cut open one of them sunzabitches and drank their fucking BLOOD!!!!!!!! ::both::
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Then again, I wouldn't have gone on the stupid hike in the first place. You got a point, TSW... Rick
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yes I do.. though.. my point is like...
Them: NO water for you TSW.
Me: Glug glug glug....
Them: you flunk...
Me: Burp...
Them: we are gonna have to ask you to leave..
Me: certainly, but only after I watch you blow a well hung Nigerian.
Them: What???
Me: Yes you heard me. I will leave only after you orally satisfy a well hung Nigerian.
Them: This conversation is over! You are being crude and unreasonable.
Me: I sure am.
Them: Are you gonna leave?
Me: Sure, but first.. glug glug glug glug, and glug glug..
basically the guy should have told them to fuck off. failing to do so cost him his life. hence my lack of pity.
I feel bad for the guy's family, but I refuse to take up any sort of crusade over this matter. It is a don't be a dumbshit sort of deal.
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Dangers That Can Cause or Lead To…
South Boston’s Elisa Santry went on her Outward Bound trip, as the company’s own ads say, to test her limits. She wound up lying face down and bloody on a rocky canyon floor. A year later, her family is still struggling to make sense of what happened, and that quest is raising a big question: Just how safe is the gold standard in wilderness adventure?
By Gretchen Voss
Elisa Woods clutches photographs of her only daughter near her home in South Boston. Her family has hired high-profile local lawyers Tim Kelleher and Pat Jones to pursue a civil suit against Outward Bound. Photo by Christopher Churchill. Elisa Santry had been crying, which was not like her—she was a Southie kid, after all.
She hadn’t eaten much, either, just some trail mix and maybe a cracker. And it was hot. Unbelievably hot. The mercury bubbled toward 110 degrees, and the sun reflecting off the canyon walls in southeastern Utah’s red rock country made it feel like being trapped in a furnace. Still, she trudged on.
For the past 16 days, Elisa had hiked through mountains, backpacked through desert, and rappelled off cliffs; she’d also spent two days on a “solo,” testing her survival skills alone in the wilderness. So far, it had been a typical Outward Bound experience, at turns exhausting and electrifying. But today, Sunday, July 16, 2006, was not typical. The itinerary had called for an early morning hike down Lockhart Canyon to the Colorado River, followed by a multiday whitewater rafting trip. However, a girl in Elisa’s seven-member patrol had hurt her ankle while rappelling the day before, and the group’s 26-year-old instructor, Rob, had set out that evening to ready the rafts. His younger colleague, Alex, stayed behind to coordinate with an evac unit in Moab by satellite phone. Her hands full, she made sure the other six kids—Elisa, a girl named Karly, and four boys—had maps and whistles and, shortly after noon, sent them off to travel the eight miles alone.
The group followed a well-marked dirt road, taking a break in a spit of shade around 2 o’clock. That’s when Outward Bound’s Southwest program director, Mike DeHoff, passed them on his way to assist with the evacuation. Outward Bound says he asked the teens if they were okay. They all said yes. But Elisa was not okay. She told a patrolmate she felt like she was going to pass out, and took a nap while the others rested.
At 4:30 p.m., after trekking for another three miles, the group broke again. By this time, Karly (who, according to Elisa’s letters, sucked her thumb and could not tie her own shoelaces) was moving much slower than the rest. The boys were keen to keep going, and set off to walk the remaining 1¼ miles to the river, leaving the girls behind—a clear breach of Outward Bound’s protocol that says a patrol must stick together. A protocol that, Elisa wrote in her letters, the boys had already been chewed out for breaking once before.
[What's a kid like that doing on a wilderness survival course? Did she overcome her insecurities and learn to tie her shoes?]
Sometime after 5 o’clock, says Outward Bound, Elisa hiked ahead of Karly. At about 5:30, Alex, trailing the group after the evacuation, caught up with Karly and walked her down the dirt road to a gate. They passed through the gate and some dense tamarisk brush to meet up with the boys on the riverbank. It was 6 p.m. Elisa Santry was missing.
****
When Elisa Santry thumbed through Outward Bound’s 80-page brochure in early 2006, the 16-year-old saw scenes that were far removed from anything she’d ever experienced. “Find the edges of your limits and go beyond,” screamed the big blue text hovering over snapshots of teens crashing through frenzied whitewater and scaling frozen peaks. “Find out how far you can go.”
Elisa was hardly an adrenaline junkie. A quiet girl with a shy smile, slender build, and long, straight brown hair, she was a rarity in her hard-luck Southie family. Her mother was stuck at home caring both for Elisa’s elderly father, who was fading fast into the clutches of Alzheimer’s, and for her two young grandchildren, the kids of one of Elisa’s three older half-brothers. Two of those brothers lived in Massachusetts; the other, Michael, was far away in California.
An honor student who had just aced her MCAS tests at Roxbury’s John O’Bryant School of Mathematics and Science, Elisa hadn’t missed a single day of class—or a single episode of American Idol—since sixth grade, even while working part time as a cashier at Sullivan’s on Castle Island and helping care for her father. She had dreams of becoming a pediatrician or a singer, and spent her free time scribbling in a journal and working out algebra equations.
She was so impressive that her teachers nominated her for Summer Search, a national program for gifted high school students from poor families. It was there, in the organization’s local offices on Amory Street in Jamaica Plain, that Elisa came across the Outward Bound brochure. She penned an essay about wanting to overcome her shyness, and was one of 57 local kids to win a Summer Search scholarship to Outward Bound that summer. The $3,400 award paid all expenses for the 22-day “Southwest Mountaineering, Rafting, and Canyoneering” adventure, a trip that would take her far from the streets of her neighborhood to a remote region of Utah that had once been the largest uncharted area in the United States.
But her mother, Elisa Woods, was nervous. She’d always been overprotective of her namesake, ever since the two of them nearly died during a difficult early labor. Woods was wary of Outward Bound’s lengthy liability waiver, which read, in part: “I acknowledge that participating in an OB program involves inherent risks…hazards, and dangers…that can cause or lead to death, injury…I understand that OB cannot assure my (or my child’s) safety or eliminate all of these risks.” Risks, the release said, that included unpredictable or harsh weather; being separated from leaders or from other participants for considerable periods; and potential misjudgment by Outward Bound instructors.
[Should the program be required to disclose in the information how many kids have died or been injured, and the extent of their injuries? Wouldn't that be closer to 'informed consent'?]
Elisa, however, was determined to go. She was a kid; Outward Bound was cool. In the end, her Summer Search mentor helped put Woods’s mind at ease. This was the gold standard in kids’ adventure trips—the program was perfectly safe. :question: There would be plenty of supervision at all times, Woods says the mentor told her. And, after all, no one had ever died on Outward Bound. :question:
****
Of course, that wasn’t quite true. Since Outward Bound staged its first U.S. excursion in 1962, some 24 people have lost their lives on its trips. The fatalities—cardiac arrests, mountaineering falls, drowning, hypothermia—have not been widely publicized, and the company has never been held liable for a death by a judge and jury. But a former Outward Bound employee argues those numbers are misleading. “There are so many near misses you don’t even hear about,” the ex-staffer says. Like the case of the 14-year-old boy who, just 48 hours before Elisa’s disappearance, was hit by a falling rock dislodged by an instructor on an Outward Bound excursion in Colorado. His lower leg was amputated two weeks later.
When Elisa’s group discovered she was missing last July 16, they shouted her name for nearly an hour. There was no answer, but no immediate panic, either. People had been lost on Outward Bound before. Lost, and then found. There was no need to call for help—which was hours away, at best—not until her instructors conducted an initial search. And course director Casey Montandon was already in the area for another patrol. He hiked back into Lockhart Canyon, tracking footprints and looking for clues, while the instructors, after two of the boys said they had seen Elisa near the gate, focused on the tamarisk thicket.
Twilight ended at 9:12 p.m. with still no sign of Elisa. Using headlamps to guide them, the entire patrol kicked through the brush for another hour, performing walking-line searches at 15-foot intervals. Montandon then asked the boys if they were sure they had seen Elisa at the gate. They weren’t.
At 11:05 p.m., five hours after Elisa went missing and nearly 11 after she had last been with an instructor, her body was found 1,000 feet off the dirt road they had traveled, in an open canyon on a sloping side trail. With her backpack still on, Elisa had fallen to her knees, doubled over, and landed face first on hot gravel. According to Outward Bound, Alex turned Elisa’s body over and made an effort to resuscitate her. But she knew Elisa was dead. Rigor mortis had already set in.
****
The phone rang at 4:51 a.m. on July 17 in the Woodses’ dilapidated second-floor O Street apartment. Elisa’s mother picked up. As soon as she heard Outward Bound Wilderness president Mickey Freeman’s voice, she knew why he was calling. “Please don’t tell me she’s dead,” she cried, hysterical.
Woods dialed her son Michael, a 31-year-old MIT grad now working in San Francisco as an engineer. He threw hiking clothes and photos of Elisa into a suitcase and caught an afternoon flight to Salt Lake City, where he met up with his mother. They waited a full day to see Elisa’s body at the local mortuary, and when they did, on Tuesday afternoon, they were shocked.
Elisa’s face was bruised; blood rimmed her nostrils. Michael says the medical examiner told him the most likely cause of his sister’s death was heat stroke, which, he said, can come with very noticeable warning signs—signs like red-hot skin, headache, dizziness, nausea, and disorientation.
What the hell were they doing hiking in 110-degree heat? :question: Michael seethed. He had a lot of unanswered questions. He composed a list of 27 and read them off to John Read, the president and CEO of Outward Bound USA, who had arrived in Salt Lake that day. Michael asked Read to take him to the site of Elisa’s death. Later that night, the two men flew to Moab; the next morning at dawn, they boarded an aluminum riverboat on the Colorado River with two Outward Bound vice presidents of safety. Also on board was Mike DeHoff, the last adult to see Elisa alive.
Michael and the Outward Bound brass followed the group’s footsteps in reverse—up from the river, through the thicket and gate, along the open desert trail. Michael was stunned by how well marked the dirt road was. An experienced hiker, he had trouble understanding why a clear-headed person would veer off the road, as Elisa had done, turning left before the gate onto a gravel-strewn side trail.
Michael peppered the execs with more questions. Why didn’t the kids have walkie-talkies on such a hard-core trip? Would the instructors have heard Elisa’s whistle if she had blown it? Why weren’t they using the buddy system? :question: Originally, Michael says, Read had told him Outward Bound would conduct an internal inquiry into Elisa’s death and also invite outside investigators to review the incident. But out in the desert, when Michael asked to see the findings of both, he says, Read clarified that he would not pursue an external probe. (According to Freeman, Outward Bound is now undergoing an external review.) Dissatisfied with Read’s answers, Michael began to wonder if the company might be more concerned with how his sister’s death would affect enrollment, more interested in damage control, than in finding out why she had died. ::nod::
****
In the 46 years since its founding, Outward Bound USA has enjoyed explosive growth, evolving into a multimillion-dollar nonprofit conglomerate. In that time, the company has leveraged its brand to tap new markets like corporate training, school reform, and delinquent youth. It’s also greatly expanded the offerings of its wilderness division, which today has 500 expeditions in 14 U.S. states. But while the wilderness division remains Outward Bound’s core, its revenue has been in decline for more than a decade. Indeed, between 1991 and 2005, enrollment plummeted by half.
In response, in 2002 Outward Bound hired John Read, a Harvard M.B.A. and former head of a private equity fund, to turn things around. His answer to the company’s financial woes was a series of business mergers. By 2005 he had merged seven of the 10 regional Outward Bound schools into a single nonprofit with a single management structure and fiduciary board. The transformation, Read wrote in a press release, would allow Outward Bound to better serve more students. The plan seemed to be working for the bottom line. By the next summer—the summer of Elisa’s trip—enrollment was up 13 percent.
But if the numbers looked good, the programs themselves were mired in problems, according to the former Outward Bound employee. “Outward Bound started chasing revenue in the body of students. The more students you get, the more money you get, but you have to put those students in the field and you have to have instructors,” the ex-staffer says. (Four other former Outward Bound employees interviewed for this article said the average age of the company’s instructors has dropped by several years in the past decade.) “A 23-year-old doesn’t have experience, so he needs to be trained,” continues the former employee. “And they are not being trained adequately.” Freeman strongly disagrees. “We have the best training in the industry,” he insists. “Every instructor has to have a minimal level of first aid and a minimal level of wilderness skills.”
All the former employees I spoke with say that the Outward Bound of today is very different from the pre-merger Outward Bound. For instance, in 1998, a 22-year-old woman on a Pacific Crest Outward Bound School (PCOBS) mountaineering trip in Washington state slid off a snowy cliff, tumbling to her death. As a result, the PCOBS adjusted its training curriculum, creating a program so rigorous and effective, says a former staff member, it was presented at a national wilderness-risk management seminar. Outward Bound began to integrate the PCOBS program companywide, but by 2006, according to an ex–field staffer, it had been dismantled, and “there was no single person whose full-time job was training anymore. That happened to be the same season where we had some terrible accidents in the field. Perhaps that’s a coincidence, but not having a safety quality training director because it didn’t pass through budget cuts is an example of a culture that doesn’t put training first.” Freeman says Outward Bound has two executives responsible for safety and training; the ex-staffer remains unconvinced.
****
The day Elisa died, Lieutenant Monte Dalton of Utah’s San Juan County Sheriff’s Department was called out to Lockhart Canyon. Though he lives in Monticello, just 60 miles away, it took him two hours to drive the rocky, rugged roads to reach her body. When he arrived, at daybreak, everyone save Casey Montandon had left the scene; Outward Bound later moved the others by raft to Moab and put them up in a hotel. Dalton didn’t see a need to call in any of his 10 deputies, who together are in charge of an area the size of New Jersey. And as the local medical examiner’s representative, he had to get Elisa’s body to Salt Lake for an autopsy. He slipped her corpse into a body bag, laid it into the bed of his pickup, and headed north. No further investigation seemed warranted.
In the 1980s, Utah developed specific health and safety standards for some youth wilderness programs: A child’s backpack can’t weigh more than 20 percent of his or her body weight (Elisa’s weighed up to 60-plus pounds, about 60 percent of her 105-pound weight); hiking is prohibited in temperatures above 90 degrees (it was well over 100 degrees on July 16); and each youth group must be supervised by a minimum of two staff members at all times (Elisa was unsupervised for at least five hours).
But the regulations only apply to therapy programs that kids attend involuntarily. Outward Bound’s program is voluntary, which means that, aside from light monitoring by the Association for Experiential Education (AEE), a small nonprofit with vague safety guidelines, it’s also unregulated, free to set—or break—its own rules, which are less than stringent: It allows unsupervised travel, relies on the judgment of its instructors regarding hazardous temperatures, and has no pack weight limits. And according to Henry Wood, an AEE director, Outward Bound has recently chosen not to renew its accreditation.
Ken Stettler, the head of licensing in Utah’s Department of Human Services, argues Outward Bound’s weak guidelines and lack of oversight are dangerous. “I think there need to be basic safety regulations, some basic standards, no question about it,” he says. Stettler used to think Outward Bound had a stellar reputation, but now, he says, “it’s gotten so big that they don’t have the controls that they used to have. It’s become a business.”
[What's Stettler got against Outward Bound? Competition with private programs? If it had been a private program he'd be defending them. No kickbacks?
http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.ph ... 927#266927 (http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=266927#266927) ]
In Elisa’s case, under Utah law, the only things Outward Bound could be charged with violating are the state’s recklessness and negligence statutes, Class A misdemeanors that carry a small fine. Michael Woods wants to make sure the company faces at least that meager punishment. “What I’m requesting is not so unreasonable, when my sister is dead,” he says. Michael called Dalton and persuaded him to look further into the case; Dalton agreed to put a sheriff on it and talk to County Attorney Craig Halls.
Eight months after Elisa’s death, Halls said he had not seen any kind of report on the investigation. Dalton himself says Outward Bound had “clammed up” and was stonewalling his sheriff, but following an inquiry from Boston magazine, it agreed to have a company representative meet with him. (According to Dalton, Outward Bound had previously volunteered to hand over its internal report and the names of the other students, but has yet to do so. Outward Bound’s Mickey Freeman says he only recently received the sheriff’s department’s official request.)
For his part, Stettler has little faith in the local PD. “Law enforcement just dropped the ball,” he says. “They allowed the rest of the group to leave [the state] without even interviewing them. Now, they’re just covering up their own ineptness.”
[Is that it? OB pays the PD instead of Stettler?]
Legally, the sheriffs could subpoena information from Outward Bound, or turn to the state Attorney General’s Office for help. But they haven’t, yet. Dalton isn’t in a hurry to move things along. “I think it’s tragic, but like I told Michael, nobody went out and forced Elisa to go on this thing,” he says. “For a misdemeanor, we have two years to file. So it’s not like we have to do it right immediately anyway.”
****
Sitting in a cavernous conference room overlooking downtown Boston, surrounded by lawyers, Elisa Woods looks like a broken woman. It’s January 16, 2007, the six-month anniversary of her daughter’s death. Dressed in a worn red sweater and jeans, she keeps her eyes locked on a fixed point on the dark wood table in front of her as she describes her youngest child. “She was following in Michael’s footsteps,” Woods says. “She was smart; she had a lot going for her.”
Michael first contacted attorney Richard “Rocky” Grossack in August, after he realized he wouldn’t get the answers he wanted from Outward Bound. But Rocky, a friend of Elisa’s uncle—and the kind of personal-injury lawyer who takes referrals from those commercials that blanket midday TV—knew early on that the case was way too big for him alone. “I don’t really litigate,” he says. “I do a high-volume business; I’m what they call a rainmaker.” So the Woodses also enlisted high-profile Boston attorneys Tim Kelleher and Pat Jones, the same lawyers who won the family of Victoria Snelgrove $5.1 million after she was killed in an incident on Lansdowne Street during the 2004 Red Sox American League pennant celebration.
The three lawyers are pursuing a civil suit against Outward Bound—in which Elisa’s family could win compensatory and punitive damages—and they are hovering over Woods, making sure she doesn’t say anything to harm the case. In order to win damages that could run into the multimillions, they’ll need to prove either that the indemnity release is unenforceable, or that the organization was guilty of gross negligence, a more aggravated form of negligence not covered by the document. The release states that while Woods cannot “make a claim against OB as a result of any loss, injury, damage, or death suffered by…my child,” she would be able to pursue a claim that fell under that category.
[So did the Summer Search 'mentor' misrepresent the program when she said there would be "plenty of supervision at all times", or did OB breach their contract by not providing supervision at all times?]
Sending the kids out alone in extreme temperatures during the middle of the day with heavy packs might be an example of gross negligence, but the lawyers aren’t eager to publicly outline their case (which as of press time they were still preparing, and had not yet formally filed). Others, however, are not as reserved. “Elisa Santry died not because she was alone in the desert, not because those boys hiked ahead,” says the former Outward Bound employee. “She died because the instructors were out in a situation they were not prepared to handle.” Stettler shares that opinion: “There’s no question,” he says, that this was a case of negligence.
It’s a charge Outward Bound itself vehemently denies. “Do I think Outward Bound was negligent? Absolutely not,” Freeman says. In the past 25 years, the company has put thousands of kids through the Utah desert, he says, and none of them have died. Everything done that day, he insists, was in keeping with Outward Bound’s standard safety protocols. In fact, after completing its internal investigation of that day’s events, the company says it won’t change its operating procedures. (As a matter of policy, Outward Bound does not release investigation findings or operating procedures.) Elisa’s death was simply the result of “a perfect storm of random events,” Freeman says. The medical examiner’s opinion aside, Freeman even disputes that Elisa died of heat stroke. “I think there was possibly some physical or other issue at play,” he speculates. “It begs the question, she was kind of a thin person, was there something else going on…. Could there have been something in Elisa’s chemistry that threw her over the edge? :rofl:
“We are, hands down, the leader in risk management. We set the bar,” he adds. “Of course, there’s always a chance that something will happen, the one-in-a-million situation when something goes wrong.” In fact, the actual odds of something going wrong—of dying alone in a desert or having your lower leg sawed off—are much higher than that number. But when parents sign Outward Bound release forms, how consciously are they making that calculation? Are they making informed decisions, or, like Woods, are they placing undue faith in Outward Bound’s vaunted reputation? A reputation, the former Outward Bound employee says, the company no longer deserves.
[24 deaths.... have 24,000,000 been through the program?]
“The organization that was once great has lost its moral compass,” the former staffer says. “I might be viewed as a disgruntled employee, but that doesn’t change the weight of what I have to say: The root cause of Elisa’s death is that the leadership of Outward Bound didn’t do its job—they just don’t get the concept of risk management and safety in the wilderness environment.”
****
On July 23, 2006, the day before she had been due to make the 2,500-mile trip back home to regale her family with tales of her life-changing experience, Elisa Santry lay dead at the J. F. O’Brien and Sons Funeral Home in South Boston, her body displayed in an open casket surrounded by pink and white flowers.
Her mother and brother stood by the coffin for hours as a long line of relatives and friends offered condolences. They both were exhausted. Woods had been up all night gluing pictures of Elisa to a white poster-board memorial. Michael hadn’t slept much, either. He was poring through Elisa’s letters and journal from Outward Bound, memorizing the names of the kids on her trip. He still had more questions than answers, and was hoping a patrolmate might show up to pay respects.
None did. But among the mourners that day was a girl named Tam. She came up to Michael and introduced herself; he recognized the name. “Did you go to school with Elisa?” he asked. “I have something for you.” He pulled out a handful of unmailed letters Elisa had written to Tam and several other girls while she was in Utah. They huddled together and read the notes, laughing and crying.
Later, Michael ran over to the fax machine at the funeral home and made copies. He didn’t want to let go of the originals yet. He’s still searching for some hint, some sign, hidden somewhere in a 16-year-old’s scrawled words, that might explain why she was left alone to die.
Originally published in Boston Magazine, April 2007.
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Let us sing a song. A song about freedom from wall o text!
We don't want no wall o text!
We don't need no wall o text!
Burn the wall o text and give the poster of it aids!
blah blah blah blah.. etc.
Fornits will soon be put on the 2 inch rule. If you need more than 2 inches of text to prove your point it isn't being read by myself.
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You exceeded your 2" rule. Quit your bitchin.
I average 2.7 posts a day. Your average is 5.23 per day since March and a bazillion of your posts were deleted. Some quiet lengthy as I recall. At that rate, in six years you'll have 6500 more posts than I had in the same amount of time.
Prove a point? Some news articles disappear into archives and one must pay to retrieve them. I thought this one had some useful info about OB that I'd never read before. It was worth saving, imo.
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Insightful, informative article. Thanks, Deborah.
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I read the whole thing as soon as it was posted, I for one am quite glad the whole article was posted as I hate when I can't retrieve articles from archives later.
Outward Bound is one of the ones that bothers me the most at the minute, as my mother tried her best to send my sister through something like that instead of an RTC.
Rachael
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Let us sing a song. A song about freedom from wall o text!
We don't want no wall o text!
We don't need no wall o text!
Burn the wall o text and give the poster of it aids!
blah blah blah blah.. etc.
Fornits will soon be put on the 2 inch rule. If you need more than 2 inches of text to prove your point it isn't being read by myself.
Unlike your butt buddy Milk, we don't like to be limited to 2 inches.
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Let us sing a song. A song about freedom from wall o text!
We don't want no wall o text!
We don't need no wall o text!
Burn the wall o text and give the poster of it aids!
blah blah blah blah.. etc.
Fornits will soon be put on the 2 inch rule. If you need more than 2 inches of text to prove your point it isn't being read by myself.
Its about around the highlighted section you should have noticed that I was messing around with you.
Having a bit of stress are you?
Come on debs.. relax some... and later I'll tell you one of those wierd wilderness stories you told me to rant and rave about.
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Let us sing a song. A song about freedom from wall o text!
We don't want no wall o text!
We don't need no wall o text!
Burn the wall o text and give the poster of it aids!
blah blah blah blah.. etc.
Fornits will soon be put on the 2 inch rule. If you need more than 2 inches of text to prove your point it isn't being read by myself.
Unlike your butt buddy Milk, we don't like to be limited to 2 inches.
Now now lets not brag we all know its rarely true.
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T.S. Waygookin, your previous post stated your opinion about this young man's death, "hence my lack of pity." Therefore, do you really think anyone cares if you do or do not read a post that is longer than 2 inches in length? NO!
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DECEPTIVE MARKETING?
The 28-Day Standard Field Course is the oldest and most popular course BOSS offers. It has been designed over the last 37 years to test a student ? physically, mentally and emotionally ? and to provide him or her with an extended traditional living experience.
Was there a transistion from an "extended traditional living experience" to a "survival" course? And what's traditional about hiking in the desert in 100* temps without water. Any traditional (native) person would call you a stupid white person. The transition is to experiencing the environment as is without modern tools/gadgets as is requested/desired by those signing up for the course that clearly describes this.
IMPACT-A fast-moving, minimal-equipment hike through the desert. No food and water except what you find. No blankets or ponchos until Group Ex.
It was his second day, so he must have still been on Impact. No food/water the first two days. Might they save that for after the person is acclimated? After they have built up to eating less? When it's not 100+ degees? And WHERE do they "find" water except at the drops?
Having done the 2 week version of the course, you spend almost 2-days before you go out getting acclimated and learning some basic skills. They also give you specific information on how many calories to expect to consume through every phase of the course. Prior to arriving they send a recommended preparation plan which includes cutting back on the food you consume. The instructors have a route that has known water sources along the way. Keep in mind that they hiked 4-miles in 10-hours -- they weren't overly exerting. When I did the course, it was very dry as well and when a normally good water source was found dry, there was a planned back up water drop, just in case of this situation.
Found this in the Risk section:
There's also an added element of risk to BOSS Field Courses ? Impact. As far as we know, there is no other program which will purposely put you in a position where you must hike under adverse conditions (hot, bright days or cold, dark nights) with little or no food and water. And this is done during the first few days of the course ? when we really don't know that much about you or your physical fitness. On the contrary, prior to arriving a full physical is required and after arriving, a brief fitness test is given to determine how you are re-acting to the altitude and heat.
Let's take a look at the realities of Impact:
Now, with little more than a 1.5 mile test run, we gear up and head off for a desert hike. No food, no water except that which we come across. Your clothing is limited to what's on your body ? no blanket, no poncho, nothing really substantial. The goal is to live in the moment with a group of strangers, exploring the wilderness and what it has to offer.
Of course, some responses to Impact are expected. Nausea, light-headedness, aches, pains, hunger, cramps, thirst, etc. are all common responses to not having food or water while hiking. But these symptoms can be reduced through proper preparation before the course and managed with proper feedback during the course. Again, the most significant risk and the greatest unknown on the trail is you. Tell us about yourself and how you're doing on a course, and a lot of the risks of Impact can be eliminated.
With feedback lots of the risks can be eliminated? So, why was he denied water? Who is reponsible for dx'ing dehydration/ heat exhaustion? Is there a sure-fire field test?
No, there is not a 'sure-fire' field test. Every instructor is Wilderness First Responder certified and also is taught signs and symptoms to watch for based on many years of experience. Instructors spend their first year and sometimes more as an apprentice learning these things. Everyone in a course such as this is going to be dehydrated to some degree. The instructors have to evaluate the situation based on a lot of things -- experience and training be the most important. BOSS has been doing these course for 37 years and this is the first time they've had a death. I think their track record speaks for itself -- they try very hard to facilitate a safe experience but it is what it is -- a wilderness desert survival situation that people want to experience and choose to do.
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A ?mistake? is one thing- a poorly designed program is another. These people are there, have paid, to learn something, not be put in life-threatening situations and denied what they need to survive.
Not True, that is what you are paying for. You're paying to experience a wilderness survival situation while learning traditional puebloan culture skills.
Your goal is to learn to 'live in the now' as your small group hikes many miles and learns the skills of traditional Puebloan cultures. Not for the faint of heart, a BOSS Field Course is for those seeking a challenge and a chance to renew
(from BOSS website)
If you don't want the physical challenge of what BOSS calls a Field Course, then they recommend you take an Explorer Course which is less physical and does not include an impact phase.
BOSS Explorer Courses offer a rustic wilderness experience without the physically-challenging Impact phase of Field Courses.
It's a choice which you take.
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Hmm. You sound more like a BOSS employee, but whatever.
The guy spent four years in the U.S. Air Force, serving in Saudi Arabia, Greece and Greenland. He once hiked 4 miles across the tundra in full combat gear. He wasn't an idiot, nor was he out of shape.
Others reported that he complained of cramps, that he'd veered wildly between encouraging the others and being really dazed. He also knew he needed water and asked for it. The instructors carried water but wouldn't give him any.
Why? Water would've saved his life. Why did they refuse him what he needed to survive? Was the man's life less important than following the program procedures?
Which program he chose is irrelevant. I don't care what the protocol is for any given program, when a person is delusional they need to be given water. What would be the harm of erring on the side of caution? BOSS could've 'flunked' him out of the course. It was more important to deny his needs, for whatever screwed-up reason you can fabricate. A man died needlessly. There's nothing you can say to justify it or lay blame on the participant. :rofl:
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BTW, there was no news report that stated they only hiked 4 miles in 10 hours. All of them said they hiked "all day" from 9am to 7:30 when he died.
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/95 ... etail.html (http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/9561271/detail.html)
The group of 12 students and three instructors left a water source at 9 a.m. last Sunday and hiked all day in high temperatures without additional water. The group was several hundred yards from water when Dave Bushow passed out and died at about 7:30 p.m.
As his brother stated:
"The whole point is to teach them how to survive. But this is like rule No. 1 of what you don't do: Hike in the hot sun all day without water. He paid $3,000 to learn skills, not to be tortured to death," he said.
The expert quoted said, "when you're exerting yourself in warm temperatures, you might be sweating away as much as a liter of water an hour."
10 hours without water in 100+ degrees, requesting water, being denied, and you feel this outfit has no responsibility in this man's death? He knew what he needed, asked for it and was denied.
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The bigger question ought to be is why a grown adult didn't have the stones to say, "Fuck this shit I'm gonna drink all the water I want to survive."
This isn't anything about a program this is about one man who made some really crappy decisions that cost him his own life.
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The bigger question ought to be is why a grown adult didn't have the stones to say, "Fuck this shit I'm gonna drink all the water I want to survive."
Military
(GAAH... must obey orders... ack *plop*)
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Bollocks.
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Buttocks.
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I have much respect for you in some of your posts,Crash Dummy,
But I don't know if you realize, that the people participating in the program were NOT allowed water bottles, yet the staff had some, it is basic human compassion to give water to someone who is in trouble.
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Then as an adult you say give me my money back. Use a little common sense no forced the man to participate.
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I have much respect for you in some of your posts,Crash Dummy,
I don't. I think he's a loser.
::nod::
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I have much respect for you in some of your posts,Crash Dummy,
I don't. I think he's a loser.
::nod::
I second that! :tup:
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Shut up. And don't nobody give TSW any water, he is on restriction until we make next camp. :flame:
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Others reported that he complained of cramps, that he'd veered wildly between encouraging the others and being really dazed. He also knew he needed water and asked for it. The instructors carried water but wouldn't give him any.
No, I'm not a BOSS employee just a satisfied customer. You're speculating based partial quotes and we don't full situation. The local did a full investigation, getting COMPLETE statements from everyone and determined that there was no negligence. Perhaps the instructor was unaware that he veered wildly or was delusional. I have NO idea. I'm just not going to speculate based on media story.
Which program he chose is irrelevant. I don't care what the protocol is for any given program, when a person is delusional they need to be given water. What would be the harm of erring on the side of caution? BOSS could've 'flunked' him out of the course. It was more important to deny his needs, for whatever screwed-up reason you can fabricate. A man died needlessly. There's nothing you can say to justify it or lay blame on the participant. :rofl:
I didn't blame the participant or the school. You can choose to leave the course. When I took my course, 2 people dropped out. That something else we don't know. Did Dave ask to drop out? I have no idea.
No one was denying him water for a screwed up reason. The participants are on a course phase that you are trying to survive off only what you find in the environment. That's what was signed up for. To me, it would be odd on a course like this if someone said, I'm hungry and suddenly you stop and a full meal is served. That's not the point of the course.
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BTW, there was no news report that stated they only hiked 4 miles in 10 hours. All of them said they hiked "all day" from 9am to 7:30 when he died.
Don't know what your point -- no reason for me to make up things. Of course, the newest news stories leave that detail out. Again, you're make wide assumptions that the media has published the full story and that everything said is 100% accurate.
If you go back to the original reports, there was an interview with Josh Bernstein where he said 4-miles. Some of the original reports also said that the high-temperature for that day was I think 93 degrees. The newest stories just round up and say 100+.
Here's one where one of the students speculates it was around 5-6 miles.
"We didn't cover all that much distance, maybe five to six miles. We were moving slowly, a lot of up and down," DeTar said in an interview from Vermont.
http://www.deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,12 ... 07,00.html (http://www.deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,660217207,00.html)
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I have much respect for you in some of your posts,Crash Dummy,
But I don't know if you realize, that the people participating in the program were NOT allowed water bottles, yet the staff had some, it is basic human compassion to give water to someone who is in trouble.
During most of the course, you are allowed to carry 2 32 ounce water bottles; however, during the impact phase, you are only allowed to carry 1 24 ounce metal cup.
When I took the course, I chose to fill my 24 ounce cup with water as we left a water hole and carried it, sipping the water. From the stories, you can't really get that detail -- the stories say, the water bottle wasn't allowed -- that's true. But from my experience, you could carry water in the cup -- it was awkward since you tend to get tired of carrying the way you have to carry a cup.
I agree with CTD though. If he had decided to fill the water bottle anyway, they could have either allowed it or expelled him from the class.
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3/10
Riiiiiiiight.
Look, I'm not sure you're aware what kind of forum you've happened to step into here. We deal with this shit all the time, from people many times more experienced than you.
Go peddle this "the media was going on false information, the original reports said..." bullshit to kindergarteners stupid enough to believe it.
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3/10
Riiiiiiiight.
Look, I'm not sure you're aware what kind of forum you've happened to step into here. We deal with this shit all the time, from people many times more experienced than you.
Go peddle this "the media was going on false information, the original reports said..." bullshit to kindergarteners stupid enough to believe it.
I said that they tend to give partial quotes and leave out certain details. Have no idea how you know what my experience level is.
Here's the link to one of the original reports where the 4 mile distance is clearly given. So...if the new reports don't report that known info, kinda proves my point. So, don't know where you're coming from.
Don't think I said anything that most don't know about media reports.
I'm giving my opinion just like everyone else.
I in NO WAY fell that people have to agree with me. I'm just hoping to voice my view just like everyone else.
And, in this case, to also point out the problem with taking news stories as being the whole picture. To read some of the news stories, it sounds like there was negligence. However, official investigations by two different organizations said that everything was done correctly -- I can only assume; therefore, that we don't have all the details.
Doesn't seem like a stretch at to me. Again, just my take.
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http://wcbstv.com/topstories/local_story_203172624.html (http://wcbstv.com/topstories/local_story_203172624.html)
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The bigger question ought to be is why a grown adult didn't have the stones to say, "Fuck this shit I'm gonna drink all the water I want to survive."
This isn't anything about a program this is about one man who made some really crappy decisions that cost him his own life.
How do you arrive at that? What crappy decisions did he make?
This has everything to do with a program. The man is dead because of the decisions made by the macho staff running the program and their unwillingness to bend macho policy. I'm certain the participants expect that the 'rules' will be broken and water will be provided if they get into real trouble. I think that is a reasonable assumption, and certainly one I'd make.
Should BOSS be required to put in their disclaimer that they are macholy serious about their program policies and water will not be provided, even if the participant is delirious and/or dying? And, disclaim that their staff is not capable of determining when a participant is trouble- suffering from heat exhaustion or dehydration?
No different than wilderness programs, when the guy was sitting 100 yards from the water source and couldn't move to get water, I guess the macho staff assumed he was 'faking'. Now why would a grown man 'refuse' to walk the last 100 yards if he was physically capable of doing so?
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I would imagine, because he didn't want to seem like a pussy. It is the macho attitude you talk about that keeps one man in a group of many from turning back, it's peer pressure I guess is what people call it. They weren't going to physically restrain and drag him along, so unlike some adolescent programs, the prison was not physical it was mental. I think grouping in this with adolescent programs dilutes the forced abuse upon the kids, IMHO.
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Which reminds me of the stories from those groups of men climbing Everest, they sometimes leave a live person (injured or straggling) behind to die alone in the cold. Is that program related behavior too?
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The bigger question ought to be is why a grown adult didn't have the stones to say, "Fuck this shit I'm gonna drink all the water I want to survive."
This isn't anything about a program this is about one man who made some really crappy decisions that cost him his own life.
How do you arrive at that? What crappy decisions did he make?
This has everything to do with a program. The man is dead because of the decisions made by the macho staff running the program and their unwillingness to bend macho policy. I'm certain the participants expect that the 'rules' will be broken and water will be provided if they get into real trouble. I think that is a reasonable assumption, and certainly one I'd make.
Should BOSS be required to put in their disclaimer that they are macholy serious about their program policies and water will not be provided, even if the participant is delirious and/or dying? And, disclaim that their staff is not capable of determining when a participant is trouble- suffering from heat exhaustion or dehydration?
No different than wilderness programs, when the guy was sitting 100 yards from the water source and couldn't move to get water, I guess the macho staff assumed he was 'faking'. Now why would a grown man 'refuse' to walk the last 100 yards if he was physically capable of doing so?
I think it is clear in the course description that you are given no food or water other than what is found on the course.
Welcome to Impact, the first phase on a BOSS Field Course. Our goal is to take you from a world of convenience and comfort and put you in a situation where you must go "just a little bit farther" — past those false limits your mind has set for your body. During this phase, you will carry no food and minimal water - collecting only what, if any, you find along the way.
I can said with certainty that the BOSS philosophy has nothing to do with being macho. It has do to do with living in the environment simply. They really want you to succeed.
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On Sunday, Elisa D. Santry, 16, of South Boston, Mass., died on the 16th day of a three-week Outward Bound Wilderness course near Canyonlands National Park. The temperature was about 110, said San Juan County Sheriff Mike Lacy.
Organizers said the girl was with five other teens, ages 16 to 18, hiking through heavy brush to reach rafts waiting for them at the Colorado River.
As they were nearing the river, she had lagged behind, possibly to wait for another hiker, the sheriff's office said Tuesday. The other hiker reached the river but Elisa did not show up. She was later found up a small side canyon, the sheriff's office said.
"There was no evidence of foul play," said Mickey Freeman, president of Outward Bound Wilderness. An autopsy was planned.
The girl had passed a medical screening before joining the program, the group said. Outward Bound canceled the remaining five days of the program, which included hiking, climbing and rafting. There were 13 other people participating, ages 16-18.
Canyonlands National Park is about 200 miles southeast of Salt Lake City, and Boulder is about 200 miles straight south.
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On the Net:
Outward Bound: http://www.outwardboundwilderness.org/ (http://www.outwardboundwilderness.org/)
Boulder Outdoor Survival: http://www.boss-inc.com/ (http://www.boss-inc.com/)
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washingtonpost.com
Let's not forget the other half of the article... two hikers died that weekend. One forced. One voluntary.
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So obviously Deborah if I say jump you are going to jump? Grown adults no longer are required to be responsible for their choices? I wouldn't suggest Boss to my worst enemy. Obviously they are a bunch of under qualified retards. However, when it comes to a 28 year old man signing up for a voluntary course and ends up getting himself killed, I'm not going to get all worked up over it.
He volunteered for the course. No one forced him to go. This is nothing more than Darwinian selection preventing the spread of DNA in the gene pool.
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MachoHikerDave says
No one was denying him water for a screwed up reason. The participants are on a course phase that you are trying to survive off only what you find in the environment. That's what was signed up for. To me, it would be odd on a course like this if someone said, I'm hungry and suddenly you stop and a full meal is served. That's not the point of the course.
Bad analogy. Did anyone suggest, after he was clearly in trouble-"pale, wracked by cramps, speech slurred, desperate for water and hallucinating so badly he mistook a tree for a person, speech thick and mouth swollen, companions were carrying his possessions for him"- that maybe he wasn't macho enough and should drop out. Do people really think clearly when they are dehydrated? Was he even capable of making rational decisions for himself? Doubtful. The brain is the first to go.
MachoHikerDave says
I didn't blame the participant or the school.
Oh, I think you are, but it doesn't matter, the program did, "BOSS, has denied any negligence and instead blamed Buschow".
MachoHikerDave says
Perhaps the instructor was unaware that he veered wildly or was delusional.
That's would be significant if true, given that the other participants noticed.
"During a break, he mistook a tree for a person and said, "There she is." "This was the first point at which I became concerned knowing that delirium happens when dehydration becomes severe," a camper wrote. Buschow "also asked if there was much air traffic that went through here, and asked if anyone had a signal mirror."
Perhaps, this is why 5 people dropped out of the course after his death. Might they have lost trust in the staff to be able to act rationally in their best interest, having watched staff allow a man to die when water was readily available? Having watched staff deny his symptoms and allow him to die.
As for the staff:
"He said he could not go on," staff member Shawn O'Neal wrote two days later in a statement ordered by the Garfield County Sheriff's Office. "I felt that he could make it this short distance and told him he could do it as I have seen many students sore, dehydrated and saying 'can't' do something only to find that they have strength beyond their conceived limits."
O'Neal didn't inform Buschow about his emergency water.
"I wanted him to accomplish getting to the water and the cave for rest," he wrote. "He asked me to go get the water for him. I said I was not going to leave him.... Shortly thereafter I had a bad feeling and turned to Dave and found no sign of breathing."
but was warned by the staff not to fill it. During the early phase of the expedition, participants can drink water at the source only and cannot carry it with them[/b]."[/i]
Warned by the staff? Shouldn't that be the participant's decision, how hard they want to 'push' themselves? Which "perceived limits" they choose to challenge and which they choose to accept? THAT should not, and never should be, someone else call. Period.
MachoHikerDave says
I think it is clear in the course description that you are given no food or water other than what is found on the course.
Look, if that's the case, then they should have to put that in their disclaimer. WE WILL NOT PROVIDE YOU WITH WATER, EVEN IF YOU ARE DYING. DON'T TAKE THIS COURSE UNLESS YOU ARE PREPARED TO RISK YOUR LIFE. WE LITERALLY ALLOWED ONE MAN TO DIE. THAT'S HOW SERIOUS WE ARE.
I was talking to an MD friend this afternoon. His comment was that they should not be allowed to deny participants water, EVER. Food, yeh, you can go up to a week without food, but clearly you can die of dehydration in a matter of hours. You can "condition" yourself for endurance, but you can not "condition" yourself to need less water. Denying participant water, particularly those in trouble, is clearly neglect and sadistic.
BTW, my MD friend also commented that after a while, after dehydration had gone too far, the hiker would likely not even notice he was thirsty anymore. Based on the other participants comments, he was clearly showing classic signs of severe dehydration. His symptoms were denied.
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Which reminds me of the stories from those groups of men climbing Everest, they sometimes leave a live person (injured or straggling) behind to die alone in the cold. Is that program related behavior too?
IF they got hungry enough they may even kill him and eat him.
BUT, if they'd had any means with which to save his life, and withheld it, that would be wrong, imo.
What's "program" about this situation is that the program DENIED the participant what he needed to sustain life, just as youth programs do all the time.
It's one thing if you can't save some one because you don't have what they need or the means to do so, and quiet another to DENY them what they need when it's available.
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MachoHikerDave wrote
I can said with certainty that the BOSS philosophy has nothing to do with being macho. It has do to do with living in the environment simply. They really want you to succeed.
How healthy is it when someone wants something for you more than you want it for yourself? There's a line and they crossed it. They should be forced to provide water to their participants, if the participant desires/needs it. End of story.
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Which really makes you wonder why anyone would sign up for such a thing, doesn't it? It must be the same mentality parents who send their children to wilderness have, that it will be some kind of romantic getting back into touch with nature experience when it's nothing ore than a forced desert march. Withholding water while someone is dying is not only cruel it's inhumane, so I see how that mentality is "program" , it reminds me of the the countless stories of kids dying in the same way sometimes the staff even laughing as they die. When I made the comments asking why it was program related I thought he just dropped dead during a hike didn't realize they stood around and watched him die so obviously the similarities are obvious I suppose. It's that strange social phenomenon of relatively financially well off white people finding crazy and expensive ways to hurt or "challenge" themselves... just stop doing it to the kids who have no choice. I would have a hard time living with myself if I just stood by and watched someone die, it would be hard to subscribe to such a hard and cold policy for very long. Anyways my thoughts.
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He volunteered for the course. No one forced him to go. This is nothing more than Darwinian selection preventing the spread of DNA in the gene pool.
Luv ya dude, but I have to disagree. We could apply that same thinking to all the youth that have died in programs- the dead kids coming from inferior gene pools, parents who can't parent their own kids, therefore they're shipped to programs where their lives are put in danger- Natural selection? How does that fit for you?
Look I got it, your pissed at the "pussy" for 1) even taking the course and 2) not demaning what he needed. Great. I got that.
He and his classmates knew what he needed. They denied it. And this program should be required to make a change in the water policy if they are to continue to hike people through the desert in 100* temps. There isn't a shread of evidence that would support what they're doing (denying water) to be useful or therapeutic.
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Luv you back Debs but comparing an adult who volunteers for something like he did to a kid forced into a program is an invalid comparison. Kids in a program don't have that particular choice to make without being held accountable and given more time in programme or some other equally wankerish crap.
If he knew what he needed why didn't he demand that he get it? No legal sanctions could have been brought against a 28 year old man for insisting he gets some water. I mean demand here, not sit down and beg, but full out demand. Failing that I'd have said fuck this and bailed myself after about the half way mark. Of course getting me out on that sort of jackass course wouldn't have happened in the first place.
Hence, Darwinian selection in play. The wise man stays home and spreads his genes. The fool goes and kills himself from dying of thirst in the woods.
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I can see both sides of the coin here. On one hand this guy did have a choice about whether to sign on for something as harebrained as this. Kids do not. But i cant see how such a business is allowed. I dont understand why such extreme terrain is treated with such little respect or how ppl can be so cavilier about the dangers on hiking in such extreme heat with or without water.
I do think it is part of a disturbing wider philosophical trend. That pain is good and that the right to inflict it is relative depending on whose side you are on. I dont see a coincidence between the way kids are treated in programs and the fact that guantanamo bay exists or that prisoners in florida are tortured. Because it boils down to the idea that pain makes the weak stronger and because someone somewhere has deemed these people bad the behaviour is morally justified.
This guy obviously brought into the idea that he was weak and needed strength.
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Got it. And, I don't care if you're 7 or 70. If someone has what you need to survive and denies you, it's neglectful.
Doesn't matter why he went, how many miles they hiked that day, what releases he signed, what BOSS'S water policy was, or any of the other BS defenses that have been presented as distractions....
The fact remains a man was dying of dehydration and they could've save his life, and chose not to.
Should've forgone the machomegalamaniacs out west and taken Tom Brown's Survival Course. From the FAQ:
I’m not in the best physical condition — do I need to “shape-up” before taking Tracker classes?
Tracker students come in all ages, shapes, sizes, and physical conditions. We are not the type of survival school that concentrates on hard core survival and self-denial. In pure survival there is no want or debilitation, for the perfection of skills makes any survival situation easy. If you are looking for a closer attachment to Earth Mother, and the skills and philosophy that will help you live in harmony and balance with Creation, then come join us. While certain classes (such as those in the Scout series) do require a minimum level of physical fitness, for the majority of classes we ask only that you participate fully at the level at which you are physically able.
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And you still completely ignore his own responsibility to ensure his own survival.
Sorry I just can't and won't condone what amounts to as passive suicide.
I've never said that Boss was right for its policy either. I keep repeating I wouldn't send my worst enemy to such a place. I won't however let the 28 year old man off the hook for failing to ensure he got the things he needed in order to survive in a situation he choose to be in.
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Again i see where you are coming from. This course was insane. Nobody should sign on for something which is about seeing if you can "survive"
But this bullshit punishment is good for the soul philosophy has got to stop. it is extremely nasty. it does not help anyone. it does not improve America and its allies position in the world and does not make for a more moral or strong society
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I've made up my mind and I'm not likely to change it.
As a diversionary tactic I'll post this link and be gone from the thread.:
http://http://cafety.org/index.php?option=com_joomlaboard&Itemid=26&func=view&catid=5&id=2093#2093
Legislating away the responsibility for yourself is a dangerous course of action. I'm more keen on the power of a free market economy driving this sort of place out of business. Not likely to get to much business if they keep killing their customers.
If people want to do stupid shit to prove how big of balls they have its their own business. Don't expect me to weep when they end up dead or to even try to stop them either.
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I can't remember but I believe he asked for water a few times before he died. I think it was peer pressure that got him into a situation that placed him at the mercy of the program. The "tough it" group think and encouragement from the "expert" staff no doubt dissuaded him from the true danger of the situation. Anyone not familiar to a wilderness situation enrolled in a program that's supposed to be tough may not realize that "hey I'm dying" and mistake their impending doom with triumph over some great obstacle.
It's not really fair to blame this guy, an adult's mind is no less vulnerable then a child's to the mind games played by this industry. Negligent mind fuckers killed this guy.
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The bigger question ought to be is why a grown adult didn't have the stones to say, "Fuck this shit I'm gonna drink all the water I want to survive."
And if they wouldn't give the water to him, he shoulda beat it out of them or sliced 'em open with his knife and drank their blood. Of course, he would've had to realize the need for this extreme behavior before he became delirious. You gotta know when it's time to take extreme action, before you lose your ability to know....
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Legislating away the responsibility for yourself is a dangerous course of action. I'm more keen on the power of a free market economy driving this sort of place out of business. Not likely to get to much business if they keep killing their customers.
150+ kids dead. Exactly when might that "free market economy" kick in?
We can't even gather accurate statistics of injuries, assaults, deaths to show the industry is ineffective, because they report to no one. I'm not giddy about the Fed legislation unless this is strongly enforced. The "free market economy" doesn't work if people don't know the reality of what's going on in these programs. How many parents know?
If people want to do stupid shit to prove how big of balls they have its their own business. Don't expect me to weep when they end up dead or to even try to stop them either.
Okay honey, guess that means next time you get snokered and fall off the yacht, I shouldn't throw you a life preserver. That will be really hard for me to do, but if you insist..... I'll honor your wish.
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I've made up my mind and I'm not likely to change it.
As a diversionary tactic I'll post this link and be gone from the thread.:
http://http://cafety.org/index.php?option=com_joomlaboard&Itemid=26&func=view&catid=5&id=2093#2093
Legislating away the responsibility for yourself is a dangerous course of action. I'm more keen on the power of a free market economy driving this sort of place out of business. Not likely to get to much business if they keep killing their customers.
If people want to do stupid shit to prove how big of balls they have its their own business. Don't expect me to weep when they end up dead or to even try to stop them either.
When has the market left entirely to it's own devices behaved morally? Did enron? Exon Valdez? Arthur Anderson? Dr Phil? WWASP? Just as people are expected to follow laws and and behave with a basic minimum level of decency so should companies. When people behave in a way that is bad enough to harm others the law steps in and holds them accountable. Why should this be any different if you are hiding behind the corporate veil? if anything the need for company regulation is greater because people have a conscience. A company does not. it exists to turn a profit. There needs to be an independent referee to ensure that it is doing so in a way that conforms to a basic ethical standard
Moreover the law to a certain extent reflects what a society values. What does allowing a company to turn a profit from something that endangers lives something like this say about what western society values?
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Enron, Doc Phil, and The tooth fairy don't have anything to this discussion now do they?
Also Deborah you know damn well I was talking about BOSS and the 28 year old, and not the kids. This discussion hasn't been about the kids for me yet. Despite your repeated attempts to link the two.
Which is total bullshit in my opinion.
This man made a choice and he died for it. Its on his head.
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Why are you not so clearcut with your own choices in the program then? I read your blog and you suggest you as a staff are a victim of the program as well, as an adult, who could of walked out at any time. This does not mesh with your hardened stance on personal responsibility showed here,
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i will make the link clear. This is a company that knowingly sold a dangerous product or service. This is criminal behaivour
All of these other companies have too made money by fucking eithier their customers or their shareholders or the planet at large over. This is also criminal.
When criminal behavour occurs it needs to be punished. otherwise I could just sell kiddie porn on the net under a company name because there is afterall a market.
profiting something that kills, steals inflicts harm or molests= :(
Profiting form something that does not= :)
:D :D
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Got it. And, I don't care if you're 7 or 70. If someone has what you need to survive and denies you, it's neglectful.
Doesn't matter why he went, how many miles they hiked that day, what releases he signed, what BOSS'S water policy was, or any of the other BS defenses that have been presented as distractions....
The fact remains a man was dying of dehydration and they could've save his life, and chose not to.
You continue to digress.
Of course they would have given water if they thought he was dying of dehydration.
An assessment was made and based on his training and experience, the instructor thought that everything was ok. The assessment was wrong in this case and an unfortunate death was the result.
It had nothing to do with being macho. There was no 'choosing' to let him die happening. This situation is about a mistake that an individual instructor made in his evaluation. He believed he was correct.
You basically state that the instructor was fully aware that Dave Buschow was dying and let it happen anyway.
Reports stated that a couple of others in the group had asked for water and received it. Apparently, I'd guess they were more insistent than Dave Buschow was.
The option to drop out of the course also exists.
You're not being FORCED to do anything. You can stop at any time. Several dropped out when I took the course.
Again:
1. We don't have all the information so can only speculate on many things.
2. The 2 local offices that did complete investigations and did have all the information found nothing to indicate negligence.
3. 1 death during a course in the 37 year BOSS history does not indicate an organization that is careless about safety.
4. This was an unfortunate accident cause by a mis-diagnosis by an individual.
[/b]
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unfortunate accident
This was not an "accident" it was Negligence!
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unfortunate accident
This was not an "accident" it was Negligence!
No, it wasn't according the the local authorities that determine that.
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i will make the link clear. This is a company that knowingly sold a dangerous product or service. This is criminal behaivour
All of these other companies have too made money by fucking eithier their customers or their shareholders or the planet at large over. This is also criminal.
When criminal behavour occurs it needs to be punished. otherwise I could just sell kiddie porn on the net under a company name because there is afterall a market.
profiting something that kills, steals inflicts harm or molests= :(
Profiting form something that does not= :)
:D :D
So does this mean I need to sell my stock shares in Colt Firearms?
Which I won't. To good of a long term stock for me to sell now.
However, this will be my absolutely last post on this matter. But only after I say this:
The difference between me and the dead guy is I drank two cans beer on a subway last night and reminded myself of how damn lucky I am for being out of the business. Even after I was offered a job in another facility, which I turned down.
Also.. future warning.. I won't discuss the contents of my blog on fornits. The two, for me anyway, will remain seperate.
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So does this mean I need to sell my stock shares in Colt Firearms?
Well just for you i will pretend i dont have an issue with guns and say no. However if you are a gunshop owner and a crazy guy goes into your shop and says Hi Im dave the nut bar. Voices in my head say i should kill myself and th wife. may I please buy a colt?
if you say sure. thatll be (insert price here) you should be held liable.
Just as if you run a wilderness course in extreme conditions and you dont recognise one of your clients is in serious meidcal trouble you should be liable
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Enron, Doc Phil, and The tooth fairy don't have anything to this discussion now do they?
Also Deborah you know damn well I was talking about BOSS and the 28 year old, and not the kids. This discussion hasn't been about the kids for me yet. Despite your repeated attempts to link the two.
Which is total bullshit in my opinion.
This man made a choice and he died for it. Its on his head.
I have not made repeated attemtps to "link the two". Within the last few pages we have discussed the "similarities" of what happened at BOSS and what happens in youth programs.
Just for clarity, are you suggesting regulation is necessary for youth programs, but not other businesses/industry?
I might see where the guy held responsibility for his death if the staff had been saying, "Look Dave, dude, you're exhibiting classic signs of severe dehydration, you're delusional/hallucinating. We're going to bend the rules. You need to drink some water"... and Dave refused.
That's not what happened. He asked for water and was denied. He attempted to fill his water bottle that morning and was "warned" not to, whatever that means. Matters not what the program policies are/were, to me, they allowed someone to die needlessly.
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I might see where the guy held responsibility for his death if the staff had been saying, "Look Dave, dude, you're exhibiting classic signs of severe dehydration, you're delusional/hallucinating. We're going to bend the rules. You need to drink some water"... and Dave refused.
That's not what happened. He asked for water and was denied. He attempted to fill his water bottle that morning and was "warned" not to, whatever that means. Matters not what the program policies are/were, to me, they allowed someone to die needlessly.
More speculation. We don't know that the instructor was aware that he was delusional/hallucinating. I can speculate too and guess that had they known that if it were the case, they'd have re-acted. If something like that had come out of the 2 investigations of the incident, I'm sure the finding wouldn't have been what it was.
Yes, of course he was told that the 32 ounce water bottle he was carrying isn't allowed on the impact phase because they aren't. He could have filled his 24 ounce cup though and that is allowed.
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Grown men pay money to be treated like that under the laughable guise of "survival"?
He completely had it coming.
Good luck killing some more 'tards, EmployeeDave. Darwin thanks you.
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BOSS officials refused to answer our questions, :roll: but because of the incident, the school's permit for using federal land was partially suspended by the U.S. Forest Service. To get it back, the Forest Service said the survival school must change its course policy to include, among others things, that students carry water in a 32 ounce bottle. CNN has learned from Forest Service officials that the school will change its survival course policy.
CNN Video
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/200 ... .death.cnn (http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2007/06/02/sanchez.hiker.death.cnn)
The 29-year-old former River Vale resident's death on July 17, 2006, has touched off a wave of criticism and sparked a federal lawsuit against the Boulder Outdoor Survival School (BOSS), which organized the hike and the 28-day course of which it was part.
Dr. Paul Auerbach, founder of the Wilderness Medical Society and a professor of surgery at Stanford University Medical Center in California, also criticized hike leaders' actions.
"There is risk in the wilderness, for sure, but there was no risk whatsoever to this man's companions had they chosen to do the proper thing and try to save his life with cooling, rest and water," Auerbach wrote in a posting on rememberdave.net, a Web site set up in the aftermath of Buschow's death.
BOSS, which charges more than $3,000 for the course, has denied any responsibility, saying that Buschow, an Air Force veteran, did not read its manuals and may not have communicated important medical information before embarking on the strenuous trip. Officials said Buschow had also signed liability waivers.
"Mr. Buschow expressly assumed the risk of serious injury or death prior to participating," BOSS asserts in a lawsuit filed in January that asks a judge to validate Buschow's signed liability waivers.
Brook Millard, the family's attorney in its lawsuit, said it could take 18 months before the case would be ready for trial.
"I believe the actions taken by BOSS and its employees were outlandish and that his death was absolutely caused by their neglect and their intentional withholding of water," Millard said.~~
A lawyer for the school said Friday he had not seen the lawsuit and could not comment.
BOSS filed a lawsuit in the same court in January, asking a judge to uphold liability waivers signed by Buschow when he applied for the course. There has been no progress in that case.
"Mr. Buschow expressly assumed the risk of serious injury or death prior to participating," the school's lawsuit said.
The U.S. Forest Service, citing Buschow's death, partially suspended the school's use of Dixie National Forest until the school got advice on providing food and water.
The agency lifted the suspension May 25 after the school filed a plan that allows the bottle for "obtaining and transporting water" during the early phase of the field course and two bottles during later stages.~~
Correct and more humane steps are being taken.
Based on previous cases, not sure how smart it was to go after BOSS and not the guide. We'll see how it comes down.
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Ed White AP Article Une 5, 2007
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/nati ... hirst.html (http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/nation/20070605-1350-wst-deadofthirst.html)
According to the attorney for BOSS, the survival school now allows carrying a 32 oz bottle of water to "drink as they go."
This change came after Dave Buschow died from dehydration.
The U.S. Forest Service did not lift the suspension on BOSS's use of Dixie National Forest UNTIL BOSS filed a new operating plan allowing for adequated drinking water supply during hikes.
It certainly seems that BOSS has realized the importance of allowing the hikers to have water available to "drink as they go."
And the U.S. Forest Service certainly supports having water available for hikers.
This young man should not have died for the lack of a glass of water; and I extend my condolences to his family, who must still be grieving his senseless death.
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I agree with Joyce, it must be horrible for his family, to know people who had the sources to save his life and deny the life giveing substance of water, is a double whammy.
The problem with Utah they see this all too much, and don't charge the companys or employees with any criminal charge.
Now why would they want to do that when it could stir up a hornets nest for all those greedy program owners, and other businesses who are going to lose out on the $$$.
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BOSS officials refused to answer our questions, :roll: but because of the incident, the school's permit for using federal land was partially suspended by the U.S. Forest Service. To get it back, the Forest Service said the survival school must change its course policy to include, among others things, that students carry water in a 32 ounce bottle. CNN has learned from Forest Service officials that the school will change its survival course policy.
CNN Video
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/200 ... .death.cnn (http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2007/06/02/sanchez.hiker.death.cnn)
The 29-year-old former River Vale resident's death on July 17, 2006, has touched off a wave of criticism and sparked a federal lawsuit against the Boulder Outdoor Survival School (BOSS), which organized the hike and the 28-day course of which it was part.
Dr. Paul Auerbach, founder of the Wilderness Medical Society and a professor of surgery at Stanford University Medical Center in California, also criticized hike leaders' actions.
"There is risk in the wilderness, for sure, but there was no risk whatsoever to this man's companions had they chosen to do the proper thing and try to save his life with cooling, rest and water," Auerbach wrote in a posting on rememberdave.net, a Web site set up in the aftermath of Buschow's death.
BOSS, which charges more than $3,000 for the course, has denied any responsibility, saying that Buschow, an Air Force veteran, did not read its manuals and may not have communicated important medical information before embarking on the strenuous trip. Officials said Buschow had also signed liability waivers.
"Mr. Buschow expressly assumed the risk of serious injury or death prior to participating," BOSS asserts in a lawsuit filed in January that asks a judge to validate Buschow's signed liability waivers.
Brook Millard, the family's attorney in its lawsuit, said it could take 18 months before the case would be ready for trial.
"I believe the actions taken by BOSS and its employees were outlandish and that his death was absolutely caused by their neglect and their intentional withholding of water," Millard said.~~
A lawyer for the school said Friday he had not seen the lawsuit and could not comment.
BOSS filed a lawsuit in the same court in January, asking a judge to uphold liability waivers signed by Buschow when he applied for the course. There has been no progress in that case.
"Mr. Buschow expressly assumed the risk of serious injury or death prior to participating," the school's lawsuit said.
The U.S. Forest Service, citing Buschow's death, partially suspended the school's use of Dixie National Forest until the school got advice on providing food and water.
The agency lifted the suspension May 25 after the school filed a plan that allows the bottle for "obtaining and transporting water" during the early phase of the field course and two bottles during later stages.~~
Correct and more humane steps are being taken.
Based on previous cases, not sure how smart it was to go after BOSS and not the guide. We'll see how it comes down.
Most of the news stories point at that BOSS refused to answer questions because this is currently in litigation. That's normal.
It also shows a willingness on their part to seek advice on how to reduce the risk and make adjustments to further reduce the likelihood of a similar accident.
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An Accident, is when you slip and fall, ect.
Hey Hiker Dave, you could sign up to drag kids around in the desert and with-hold food and water, all for minimum wage.
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Also Deborah you know damn well I was talking about BOSS and the 28 year old, and not the kids. This discussion hasn't been about the kids for me yet. Despite your repeated attempts to link the two.
Actually, there is a direct connection between BOSS and youth wilderness that I'd forgotten about........
After leaving school, Cartisano decided to launch his own commercial wilderness-therapy school. Toward that end he hired Doug Nelson--who had directed the BYU wilderness programs for many years and founded the Boulder Outdoor Survival School--as a consultant. "Steve told me he was going to charge $9,000 for a two-month course," Nelson recalls. "At the time, most commercial programs were charging something like $500 for a 30-day experience, and I told Steve there was no way anyone was going to pay that kind of money."
http://outside.away.com/magazine/1095/10f_deth.html (http://outside.away.com/magazine/1095/10f_deth.html)
And more detail in an earlier post in this thread
http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.ph ... 404#208404 (http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?p=208404#208404)
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An Accident, is when you slip and fall, ect.
Hey Hiker Dave, you could sign up to drag kids around in the desert and with-hold food and water, all for minimum wage.
Kids? average age of someone in this course is mid-twenties. Under 18 is not allowed.
You need to look up the definition of accident.
No need for personal attacks. I"m not making any. It's amazing how in the course of discussing opinion, name calling and personal attacks ensue rather than just discussing the topic.
The reason I first posted to this forum is that Deborah referenced me.
You don't have to agree with me and I'm fine with that. I'm just trying to add some perspective to the conversation. Situations like this are never so cut and dry that one can read a news story and understand completely what happened out there.
So much of the comments made are based on speculation about who knew what or did what and how it happened, etc. Fact is, we don't know the situation.
It's keeps being repeated that if he asked for water why wasn't he given it. Here's another thing to think about. As it's also stated, the students were unaware that the instructor carried emergency water. I never knew the instructor had emergency water on my trip.
So now I'll speculate that perhaps the conversation was -- i'm thirsty, when will we find more water....and the answer may have been pretty soon. Who knows...speculation doesn't really help draw a conclusion. Speculating and then arguing based on the speculation is pointless.
Anyway, this'll be my last post on the topic. Hopefully, the discussion gets a little friendlier and more productive :)
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Hiker Dan, the POINT IS--the instructors KNEW they had water.
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Why are you not so clearcut with your own choices in the program then? I read your blog and you suggest you as a staff are a victim of the program as well, as an adult, who could of walked out at any time. This does not mesh with your hardened stance on personal responsibility showed here,
:exclaim: :exclaim:
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4. This was an unfortunate accident cause by a mis-diagnosis by an individual.
Here is ONE of the biggest issues in the industry. Does the person who "mis-diagnosed" the young man have the proper creditials, training &/or skills to be "diagnosing" medical issues? Was that person a Doctor, Nurse or EMT? There a far to many "accidents" in Wilderness Programs. Mostly because the "experts" are only "experts" by industry standards. Obviously, this guy was showing signs of trouble and the person who gave the "diagnosis" did not understand the obvious signs of dehydration.
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Staff are defendants in the lawsuit.
BOSS
Shawn O'Neal
Jonathan Williams
Steven Dessinger
Jeff Sanders
Garfield Co
Judge Tena Campbell
Case # 2:2007cv00298
Utah District Court- Salt Lake City
http://dockets.justia.com/docket/court- ... _id-61597/ (http://dockets.justia.com/docket/court-utdce/case_no-2:2007cv00298/case_id-61597/)
Perhaps that will be addressed. He was clearly exhibiting signs of severe dehydration, including seeing in 'black and white' according to his mother's statement on the CNN video. If the 'novice' participants recognized he was in a life-threatening condition, certainly one of the 4 'trained/experienced' staff should've noticed.
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I was wondering why they've got a troll on this board trying to defend them.
Darwin and adult stupidity aside, because there were supposedly trained, experienced instructors there, who would logically be required to recognize dehydration, this makes Boss liable for this man's death through
PURE
FUCKING
NEGLIGENCE.
And the court should judge accordingly.
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USE THIS.