Post by: MomCat on March 13, 2006, 09:19:00 AM
http://caica.org/NEWS%20WWASP%20Australia.htm (http://caica.org/NEWS%20WWASP%20Australia.htm)
Post by: Mochiko on March 13, 2006, 10:43:00 AM
Post by: 001010 on March 13, 2006, 10:57:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-03-13 07:43:00, Mochiko wrote:
"The link goes to a TB article, not about WWASP in Australia..."
It's an Austrailian news article.
Post by: Mochiko on March 13, 2006, 11:54:00 AM
Post by: 001010 on March 13, 2006, 12:22:00 PM
I just thank God that the news has traveled that far. From the looks of it, it's a documentary airing the 14th (tomorrow) of this month.
Post by: Anonymous on March 13, 2006, 03:08:00 PM
Post by: Antigen on March 13, 2006, 03:32:00 PM
By Clare Morgan
March 13, 2006
Disturbing look at the booming tough-love industry in the United States.
A view of Tranquility Bay
Type: Documentary
Channel: SBS
DateTuesday March 14
Time8:30 PM
Talk about tough love gone mad. Here's a disturbing look at the murky world of the World Wide Association of Specialty Programs (WWASP), America's leading provider of so-called behaviour modification programs for wayward teens.
Don't be fooled by exotic names such as Tranquility Bay and Paradise Cove in locations including Jamaica, Fiji and Western Samoa. The methods used by these camp schools to "help change wayward adolescents' inappropriate attitudes and behaviour" amount to abuse, physical and psychological. Some foreign governments have been concerned enough to shut the camps down. Some of the claims are shocking and the interviews with clearly damaged teens suggest that something terribly wrong has been going on. One mother's attempt to rescue her daughter is heart-breaking.
With the tough-love industry in the US booming (what is wrong with these people?) WWASP founder Robert Browning Lichfield has done extremely well, with buckets of money going to Mormon ministries and the Republican Party. It's a one-sided account, but makes for scary viewing.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/tv-reviews/t ... 6255.html# (http://www.smh.com.au/news/tv-reviews/the-cutting-edge-tranquility-bay/2006/03/13/1142098386255.html#)
Janis, Jimi, Gery, Timothy... Did you HAVE to get so close to the edge to get a really good view?
-- Anonymous
_________________
fka ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Straight, Sarasota
`80 - `82
Why I Live at the PO[ This Message was edited by: Eudora on 2006-03-13 12:35 ]
Post by: MomCat on March 13, 2006, 03:40:00 PM
Thanks, Ginger, for posting the article with the picture. Let me know if there's a way I can add pics when copying articles to this site. So far they disappear when I copy/paste, which is why I send other links. Thanks.
Post by: Antigen on March 13, 2006, 10:15:00 PM
The will to learn is an intrinsic motive...The will to learn becomes a 'problem' only under specialized circumstances like those of a school where the curriculum is set, students confined, and a path fixed.
--Jerome S. Bruner, Harvard.
Post by: chaking on March 14, 2006, 09:16:00 PM
Anyone know anywhere to view the video?
Post by: MomCat on March 14, 2006, 10:51:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on March 15, 2006, 01:19:00 PM
//"Hi, I'm from Australia and last night on SBS TV I learned a little about this pathetic school/camp whatever they want to call it.
The worst part for me was the decision from the parents to actually want this " perfect " child an drop them into the hands of this evil cult !!
It's great to see some people helping to bring these schools to a close.
AMEN !"// (from Swat the WWASP forum)
I'll bet there are a ton of other pissed off Australians thinking the same thing. :]
Post by: MomCat on March 16, 2006, 12:12:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on March 16, 2006, 04:30:00 AM
You can get a copy by emailing the distributors at [email protected]. A VHS tape costs 29 Euros and a DVD costs 35 Euros.
Post by: BuzzKill on March 16, 2006, 10:28:00 AM
Maybe its been lifted - or maybe that was bull.
Also - the Aussies told me it was not available commercially as of yet. However - they will be re-broadcasting it.
One way or another, it'll get seen in this country.
[ This Message was edited by: BuzzKill on 2006-03-16 07:29 ]
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on March 16, 2006, 12:34:00 PM
**One of a couple of posts I found on tbfight.com
Post by: BuzzKill on March 16, 2006, 12:44:00 PM
a link to the blurb on this documentary.
CCM - Suggest the angry Aussie complain to Amnesty International.
They ought to be at least as interested in demanding a hault to the torture of American kids as they are Iraqi POWs.
Post by: Anonymous on March 16, 2006, 01:37:00 PM
Thanks!
Post by: BuzzKill on March 16, 2006, 04:22:00 PM
She set up interviews with some of the Trekkers; or, through various Trekkers connections, with other post wwasp families.
There was a lot of upset at one point, when word leaked out the French intended to call the documentary "American Eats its Young". But they (the French dudes) assured Susan this wasn't the case - and told me when I asked about it, this was simply the name of a song they intended to use as a back drop. Apparently, its a hit song over seas. Mathieu seemed surprised I wasn't familiar with it.
Heres a link to a forum thread where America Eats its Young is mentioned in the same "breath" as the Utah Program. http://www.barbelith.com/topic.php?id=13196 (http://www.barbelith.com/topic.php?id=13196)
I assume they (the French dudes) wanted to attend the trial, and do some filming and interviewing, because of the information that was bound to result from the testimony - and the chance to catch the WWASP dudes on tape. Not having seen the film, I have no idea if any of the Salt Lake City, WWASP V PURE trial film was used - but they did do a lot of filming.
They also brought Steven F. of Paradise Cove / High Impact with them. So, I assume he was interviewed for the film.
A Steven thread: http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... orum=44&10 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=14234&forum=44&10)
Also, I know Layne B. was interviewed. You might remember him from the threads on Kemper and Randal Hinton.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=9193&forum=9 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=9193&forum=9)
But again - I have no idea if any of this was used.
Anyway - other than using Sue as a contact source, I feel safe saying there is no connection.
Lots of media persons have used Susan as a source of contacts to interview for stories related to WWASP.
This is in no way unique to the French - I'd guess, its just that they were such a prominent and interesting presence during the trail, that makes them seem unique.
Post by: chaking on March 16, 2006, 08:04:00 PM
A lot of people have sent emails into the production company to get a copy, so hopefully we can...
Post by: Anonymous on March 16, 2006, 09:42:00 PM
It also made into The Guardian, a communist party newspaper as a program worth watching.
http://www.cpa.org.au/garchve06/1264worth.html (http://www.cpa.org.au/garchve06/1264worth.html)
The Communist Party of Australia is Big on human rights and especially critical when human rights are violated/abused for profit.
It would be better if could get some more mainstream media. The station it was shown on SBS is publicly owned.
http://www20.sbs.com.au/sbs_front/index.html (http://www20.sbs.com.au/sbs_front/index.html)
Post by: BuzzKill on March 16, 2006, 11:16:00 PM
Someone mentioned the French being all over the map doing interviews - yeah - I know that's the truth. For a while, it reminded me of when I was a kid on Christmas eve, when the news would pretend to be tracking Santa Clause. "Where are the French now" was a frequent topic of conversation.
Post by: Anonymous on March 17, 2006, 03:21:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on March 17, 2006, 03:23:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-03-16 20:16:00, BuzzKill wrote:
"Publicly owned is fine by me. Frontline, NOVA, Nature and Masterpiece Theater are all aired on PBS.
Someone mentioned the French being all over the map doing interviews - yeah - I know that's the truth. For a while, it reminded me of when I was a kid on Christmas eve, when the news would pretend to be tracking Santa Clause. "Where are the French now" was a frequent topic of conversation."
:rofl: Good one BK. I may not agree with you when it comes to defending faith-based programs like ALA but you sure have a way with words.
Post by: BuzzKill on March 17, 2006, 06:18:00 AM
Thank ye
//by the way, how about an update on your own kid?//
Sure - Call me up and I'll fill you in.
If you don't know me well enough to do this - then my family is none of your dam business.
Post by: Anonymous on March 17, 2006, 10:35:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-03-17 03:18:00, BuzzKill wrote:
"// you sure have a way with words.//
Thank ye
//by the way, how about an update on your own kid?//
Sure - Call me up and I'll fill you in.
If you don't know me well enough to do this - then my family is none of your dam business."
Huh? Why isn't your kid our business? He was in a WWASPS program, before being sent to another controversial program (this one selling Jesus and not Joseph Smith as the way to salvation) was he not? Why is he any different than all these other kids you have so much concern about?
Seriously ... what gives? Lots of kids who were in a WWASPS program have ended up in another program (or programs) before their parents finally wake up and realize they have been taken for a ride but again.
Seems to me these kids should not be forgotten.
Post by: Anonymous on March 17, 2006, 10:45:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-03-16 13:22:00, BuzzKill wrote:
"I'm not all together sure how the French got in touch with Susan/PURE - but they did.
She set up interviews with some of the Trekkers; or, through various Trekkers connections, with other post wwasp families.
There was a lot of upset at one point, when word leaked out the French intended to call the documentary "American Eats its Young". But they (the French dudes) assured Susan this wasn't the case - and told me when I asked about it, this was simply the name of a song they intended to use as a back drop. Apparently, its a hit song over seas. Mathieu seemed surprised I wasn't familiar with it.
Heres a link to a forum thread where America Eats its Young is mentioned in the same "breath" as the Utah Program. http://www.barbelith.com/topic.php?id=13196 (http://www.barbelith.com/topic.php?id=13196)
I assume they (the French dudes) wanted to attend the trial, and do some filming and interviewing, because of the information that was bound to result from the testimony - and the chance to catch the WWASP dudes on tape. Not having seen the film, I have no idea if any of the Salt Lake City, WWASP V PURE trial film was used - but they did do a lot of filming.
They also brought Steven F. of Paradise Cove / High Impact with them. So, I assume he was interviewed for the film.
A Steven thread: http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... orum=44&10 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=14234&forum=44&10)
Also, I know Layne B. was interviewed. You might remember him from the threads on Kemper and Randal Hinton.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=9193&forum=9 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=9193&forum=9)
But again - I have no idea if any of this was used.
Anyway - other than using Sue as a contact source, I feel safe saying there is no connection.
Lots of media persons have used Susan as a source of contacts to interview for stories related to WWASP.
This is in no way unique to the French - I'd guess, its just that they were such a prominent and interesting presence during the trail, that makes them seem unique.
"
Wait a sec, didn't Scheff work for WWASPS for awhile as a recruiter? How many kids did she have a hand in sending to TB or Paradise Cove, Spring Creek Lodge, CCM, CSA, CBTS, before she started PURE (a referral business that is paid by the programs, themselves)?
Oh, that's right. The Trekkers don't care about that because anything that hurts WWASPS is a good thing, right?
Try telling that to the Whitmore parents who most surely would disagree with ya 'all.
Post by: CCM girl 1989 on March 17, 2006, 11:14:00 AM
BTW-What is a Trekker?
Post by: BuzzKill on March 17, 2006, 02:08:00 PM
Unless you are a friend of mine or his (and its clear you are not) his personal information is most certainly none of your dam business.
//Why is he any different than all these other kids you have so much concern about? //
Hes not any different. He is as entitled to his personal privacy as any of them. If he wants to tell all the world his business, he can. I'm not going to.
Nor do I ask other parents who post about their kid's status or whereabouts. Its not any of my (and more importantly the world wide web's) business.
For example - I Hope Carey Bock's twins are doing well - but I wouldn't demand the info be plastered on Fornits.
I hope Susan's daughter is doing great - but I wouldn't dare insist she post it on the net.
Not so hard to understand is it?
Susan - yeah - she was once the referral diva for WWASP. I wouldn't say that the people who make up the Trekkers don't care - so much as they are willing to forgive a repentant heart. It was believed by all that she had indeed repented of her roll in referring kids to negligent and abusive programs. Some now think that was a mistake.
CCM - a Trekker was a member of a email list serve. Sue Scheff ran it (or runs it) deciding who is allowed on, or who must be kicked off. Most of the members were parents who had had a child in a wwasp program and had come to regret it. If you want a more detailed explanation feel free to PM or email. But really - there's not that much to tell.
One tid bit worth noting - It was the Trekker email that Cary Bock sold to WWASP for 25 grand.
*[ This Message was edited by: BuzzKill on 2006-03-17 11:23 ]
Post by: Anonymous on March 17, 2006, 03:37:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-17 11:08:00, BuzzKill wrote:
"Nosey ass hole -
Unless you are a friend of mine or his (and its clear you are not) his personal information is most certainly none of your dam business.
//Why is he any different than all these other kids you have so much concern about? //
Hes not any different. He is as entitled to his personal privacy as any of them. If he wants to tell all the world his business, he can. I'm not going to.
Nor do I ask other parents who post about their kid's status or whereabouts. Its not any of my (and more importantly the world wide web's) business.
For example - I Hope Carey Bock's twins are doing well - but I wouldn't demand the info be plastered on Fornits.
I hope Susan's daughter is doing great - but I wouldn't dare insist she post it on the net.
Not so hard to understand is it?
Susan - yeah - she was once the referral diva for WWASP. I wouldn't say that the people who make up the Trekkers don't care - so much as they are willing to forgive a repentant heart. It was believed by all that she had indeed repented of her roll in referring kids to negligent and abusive programs. Some now think that was a mistake.
CCM - a Trekker was a member of a email list serve. Sue Scheff ran it (or runs it) deciding who is allowed on, or who must be kicked off. Most of the members were parents who had had a child in a wwasp program and had come to regret it. If you want a more detailed explanation feel free to PM or email. But really - there's not that much to tell.
One tid bit worth noting - It was the Trekker email that Cary Bock sold to WWASP for 25 grand.
*[ This Message was edited by: BuzzKill on 2006-03-17 11:23 ]"
You have got to be kidding? "Most" of the Trekkers have come to "regret" their affiliation with Sue Scheff and PURE?
Baaaaaaaaawahahaaaa ... guess that means there are still a couple of airheads out there still buying snakeoil and drinking the koolaid rather than face the bitter truth.
As for Carey Bock, nobody but the Trekkers thought she did anything wrong by turning the tables on a group blinded by their b.s. affectation for their self-proclaimed leader (Sue Scheff). In fact, I think most people who know the WHOLE STORY (not the sanitized Trekkers/PURE version which consisted mostly of vicious, vile name calling and threats) don't really give 2 cents how much money Carey made or how.
Post by: Anonymous on March 17, 2006, 03:57:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-17 11:08:00, BuzzKill wrote:
"Nosey ass hole -
Unless you are a friend of mine or his (and its clear you are not) his personal information is most certainly none of your dam business.
//Why is he any different than all these other kids you have so much concern about? //
Hes not any different. He is as entitled to his personal privacy as any of them. If he wants to tell all the world his business, he can. I'm not going to.
Nor do I ask other parents who post about their kid's status or whereabouts. Its not any of my (and more importantly the world wide web's) business.
For example - I Hope Carey Bock's twins are doing well - but I wouldn't demand the info be plastered on Fornits.
I hope Susan's daughter is doing great - but I wouldn't dare insist she post it on the net.
Not so hard to understand is it?
Susan - yeah - she was once the referral diva for WWASP. I wouldn't say that the people who make up the Trekkers don't care - so much as they are willing to forgive a repentant heart. It was believed by all that she had indeed repented of her roll in referring kids to negligent and abusive programs. Some now think that was a mistake.
CCM - a Trekker was a member of a email list serve. Sue Scheff ran it (or runs it) deciding who is allowed on, or who must be kicked off. Most of the members were parents who had had a child in a wwasp program and had come to regret it. If you want a more detailed explanation feel free to PM or email. But really - there's not that much to tell.
One tid bit worth noting - It was the Trekker email that Cary Bock sold to WWASP for 25 grand.
*[ This Message was edited by: BuzzKill on 2006-03-17 11:23 ]"
BTW - most people wouldn't even know you had a kid in a WWAPS program and then Abundant Life Academy in Utah if you hadn't posted details about your son's personal life all over the Internet, including right here on Fornits when you came to the defense of Craig Rogers, the owner of ALA.
Not so hard to understand is it ... why people might want to know how your kid is -- or at least whether he is still working for ALA - or started his own program as you once posted he was apparently interested in doing.
:roll:
Post by: BuzzKill on March 17, 2006, 04:33:00 PM
This is not what I said.
Read it again, more carefully.
All I said about Cary Bock, and her selling the Trekker email to WWASP, was that it was a tid bit worth noting. And I do believe it is.
As for this: " nobody but the Trekkers thought she did anything wrong . . .
I disagree. Plenty of people not directly effected by this bit of treachery, thought it unethical, spiteful and vindictive in the extreme.
With that sad episode, She broke trust with many a person who never did her a bit of harm; even many who were supportive of her.
She did great damage to the Program Parent out reach work. In fact, she destroyed it. And Furthermore - she knew she would - and didn't care.
Her spiteful need for vengeance, over rode any interest she may once have had in helping get the parents awake, and the kids released.
Over rode any feeling of gratitude for the people who helped her retrieve her own sons.
Over rode any scrap of ethics or integrity she might have.
You don't need to lecture me on the whole story - I know it very well.
Even if she honestly decided WWASP was fine, and only Dundee might have had a few problems - and PURE was evil through and through - she knew she was betraying the confidence of many people who had nothing to do with PURE, and who had always been a friend to her - and she didn't care.
Carey herself knew it was an appalling thing to do.
Why else would she try so hard, for so long, to deny she did it, if there was nothing wrong with what she did?
And now we have Susan behaving in the same manor toward ISAC. The spiteful need for vengeance over riding all pretended concern.
Guess the Whole Wide World is OK with that bit of trechery too, huh?
Post by: BuzzKill on March 17, 2006, 05:03:00 PM
Well its hard to discuss the problems and issues in the industry with out disclosing ones history.
I am at times a bit embarrassed by the history; But never-the-less, I feel it is important people know where I am coming from, if I want them to hear me out on the issue of abuse and neglect in these programs. So - I do try to be up-front, even if I would at times rather not.
However - you weren't asking about history - you asked for an update on my son, who can decide for himself what he wants to disclose about current events.
///or at least whether he is still working for ALA - or started his own program as you once posted he was apparently interested in doing. ///
Why is where he's working anyone's business? Its not. Case closed.
And I do not believe I ever said he planned on starting a program. I was taunted with such remarks - but I never said such a thing, b/c such a thing was never true.
///Not so hard to understand is it ... why people might want to know how your kid is -- ///
Not at all. Thus my offer to fill you in if you wanted to ring me up.
But if your just some ass hole anon with an agenda, then you can just keep wondering.
Frankly - the "wheres your kid"? posts piss me off.
Its usually done as a snide swipe, at me and mine.
It always comes from some hostile anon - except once recently when Niles asked. That I didn't mind quite as much - as he at least was not hiding under a bag. I mean really - with the rest of you ass holes, its not like some friendly concerned person is inquiring out of genuine concern or interest - IS it?
Post by: Anonymous on March 17, 2006, 05:22:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-17 13:33:00, BuzzKill wrote:
"// "Most" of the Trekkers have come to "regret" their affiliation with Sue Scheff and PURE?//
This is not what I said.
Read it again, more carefully.
All I said about Cary Bock, and her selling the Trekker email to WWASP, was that it was a tid bit worth noting. And I do believe it is.
As for this: " nobody but the Trekkers thought she did anything wrong . . .
I disagree. Plenty of people not directly effected by this bit of treachery, thought it unethical, spiteful and vindictive in the extreme.
With that sad episode, She broke trust with many a person who never did her a bit of harm; even many who were supportive of her.
She did great damage to the Program Parent out reach work. In fact, she destroyed it. And Furthermore - she knew she would - and didn't care.
Her spiteful need for vengeance, over rode any interest she may once have had in helping get the parents awake, and the kids released.
Over rode any feeling of gratitude for the people who helped her retrieve her own sons.
Over rode any scrap of ethics or integrity she might have.
You don't need to lecture me on the whole story - I know it very well.
Even if she honestly decided WWASP was fine, and only Dundee might have had a few problems - and PURE was evil through and through - she knew she was betraying the confidence of many people who had nothing to do with PURE, and who had always been a friend to her - and she didn't care.
Carey herself knew it was an appalling thing to do.
Why else would she try so hard, for so long, to deny she did it, if there was nothing wrong with what she did?
And now we have Susan behaving in the same manor toward ISAC. The spiteful need for vengeance over riding all pretended concern.
Guess the Whole Wide World is OK with that bit of trechery too, huh?"
You don't get it do you Karen? The betrayal you speak of was predictable if you and the other trekkers would have bothered to take off the blinders. The enemy was among you but it wasn't Carey - it was your fearless leader -- the person you all so proudly jumped through hoops for and so fiercly protected from the big, bad WWASPIES.
Wake up woman! Carey was a side show -- small potatoes to what was really going on and at stake, whether you or any of the other trekkies can admit it or not. The personal attacks fooled nobody who understood PURE for what it is, another brand of WWASPS. They are in the same business just marketing different programs. They are COMPETITORS, advesaries in a highly lucrative industry.
What is so damn hard to understand here?
You were a PURE supporter just like you were once a WWASPS supporter. How many times do I want you to fall down the rabbit hole before you see the light? As for the relationship b/t ISAC and PURE, I agree that is a shame but again, hardly suprising given the fundamentally different agenda of these two organizations (one being a watchdog group the other being a group watched).
It's elementary Watson. Real simple chit.
Post by: Anonymous on March 17, 2006, 05:26:00 PM
You were a PURE supporter just like you were once a WWASPS supporter. How many times MUST you fall down the rabbit hole before you see the light? As for the relationship b/t ISAC and PURE, I agree that is a shame but again, hardly suprising given the fundamentally different agenda of these two organizations (one being a watchdog group the other being a group watched).
It's elementary Watson. Real simple chit.
Sorry, meant to say MUST.
:wave:
Post by: BuzzKill on March 17, 2006, 09:27:00 PM
I get all that. Really. I do.
I just disagree that any of it, makes what Bock did, one jot less awful.
//small potatoes to what was really going on and at stake,//
Well, what was at stake? From your POV?
I feel the work of reaching out to program parents was fairly important. I always felt the ability to reach them, and explain the realities they weren't going to hear on the BBS, a high priority. And That, is what was at stake, from my POV. Bock destroyed any and all ability to find and reach these people - And she knew exactly what she was doing.
Its has always been a frustration, that you seem to have trouble grasping that the Trekkers were a large group of diverse individuals. *All* were hurt by Bock's actions, but only *one* had anything to do with PURE. The Only Trekker who had anything to do with PURE, was Susan. It wasn't PURE's email she sold to WWASP.
You seem to want to argue that Carey was pushed into her spite, by various Trekkers, (myself included) on this forum. From my perspective, she wasn't given any grief here, until after she had sold out the group. Quite Literally. Prior to that (or at least prior to the deed becoming known) She was debated on various subjects - such as her attack on Cold Water, the movie; and her harping on about the disappearance of Boarding School Truth's forum.
Those debates did get heated and snippy - but I would say this was only because of her tendency to believe her paranoid imaginings were reality; Or - maybe, it was part of the work she was doing for WWASP. But the mud slinging you speak of, the inquiries into her gross lack of integrity, were a direct result of what she did with her hard drive.
//You were a PURE supporter just like you were once a WWASPS supporter//
Well, I understand why you would think so.
I never considered myself a supporter of PURE. I did try and explain what I thought were misconceptions, (usually, trying to explain that the Trekkers had nothing to do with PURE) I did considered myself a friend of Susan's; Consequently, I did defend Susan's motives. (Until I saw evidence I was wrong about those motives.) But if what you mean by "supporter of PURE" is that I referred to PURE, or felt the ethics were perfectly sound - thats not and never was true. I never considered being supportive of Sue, the same as supporting PURE. Sue was a friend. PURE was a business. I always tried to keep them seperate in my mind.
And Yes, I fell for the Program spiel. Yes, its embarrassing. But I am hardly alone, and my time as a Program Parent was short. I spoke out plainly from the moment I saw problems. I admit to being susceptible to excessive trust and loyalty. In my defense - I am able to admit it when given evidence I was wrong.
How 'bout yourself?
//ISAC and PURE, I agree that is a shame but again, hardly suprising given the fundamentally different agenda of these two organizations//
Now - I do agree with this. I've said the same myself - all things considered, it was inevitable.
But does this make Susan's actions OK; or, have her actions been at least as despicable, as predictable?
How is Carey Bock different?
Post by: Antigen on March 18, 2006, 12:46:00 AM
Based on that action and some other, most unhelpful things that went on around that time, I can easily understand how Carey could conclude that we're all a bunch of back stabbing, trecherous assholes no better than WWASP. And, if that were the case, who would care if we all cut each other to bloody ribons? And if she could liberate some cash in the process and put it to good use, so much the better.
I never did know who all was or wasn't on the Trekkers list. Honestly, at the time I thought it was a relatively public list that I might get around to joining one day, but never had time to look into it at the time. But I understand that some of my emails, however forwarded, copied or otherwise acquired, were into that mix too.
As I say, I don't know. Haven't talked w/ Carey in... damn, two years or so. And no one can know the mind of another. But that was my take on it at the time. And who could blame anyone for drawing that conclusion? Sue sure is good at name dropping, pretending that every damned body was on her side. And, as I understand it, she took Carey for more than just a little good faith. She got a nice chunk of cold hard cash for her "help" in dialing 1-800-snatchmykid.
I just don't see any reason to demonize her. It's sort of unfair, in light of the fact that she probably is restrained from defending herself these days.
The idea of God is the sole wrong for which I cannot forgive mankind.
--Marquis de Sade, French libertine
Post by: Anonymous on March 18, 2006, 12:59:00 AM
Peace Sister!
Post by: Anonymous on March 18, 2006, 01:15:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-03-17 21:46:00, Eudora wrote:
"No, Karen, I think you're mistaken. The outright smear campaign started many months before any mention of the hard drive sale. And it did, indeed, include more than just Sue.
Based on that action and some other, most unhelpful things that went on around that time, I can easily understand how Carey could conclude that we're all a bunch of back stabbing, trecherous assholes no better than WWASP. And, if that were the case, who would care if we all cut each other to bloody ribons? And if she could liberate some cash in the process and put it to good use, so much the better.
I never did know who all was or wasn't on the Trekkers list. Honestly, at the time I thought it was a relatively public list that I might get around to joining one day, but never had time to look into it at the time. But I understand that some of my emails, however forwarded, copied or otherwise acquired, were into that mix too.
As I say, I don't know. Haven't talked w/ Carey in... damn, two years or so. And no one can know the mind of another. But that was my take on it at the time. And who could blame anyone for drawing that conclusion? Sue sure is good at name dropping, pretending that every damned body was on her side. And, as I understand it, she took Carey for more than just a little good faith. She got a nice chunk of cold hard cash for her "help" in dialing 1-800-snatchmykid.
I just don't see any reason to demonize her. It's sort of unfair, in light of the fact that she probably is restrained from defending herself these days.The idea of God is the sole wrong for which I cannot forgive mankind.
--Marquis de Sade, French libertine
"
Thanks Ginger, that's my recollection too about the origins of the smear campaign. I also agree with your observations about Carey.
FYI ... 1-800 snatchmykid is beautiful .. I don't know where you come up with these little gems (spoofs) but I'm glad you do because it restores my faith in humanity when I can laugh about this effing industry instead of feeling so burdened by the sheer horror of it all.
:smokin:
Post by: Antigen on March 18, 2006, 02:27:00 AM
For one thing, regulation already exists about patient brokering. And, if we're to be honest, what they do to these kids and their families in this industry certainly is some potent psychology. Hardly therapeutic, but potent psychological methods, to be sure. If we could get the existing regulators to see past the imaginary emergency of out of "a generation control" and to actually hold them accountable for lings like practicing medicine w/o proper licensure, best practices and such, that might help.
For another, really, how smart is it to trust someone to take full custody of your kid, even holding them incommunicado from you and the rest of the world just cause they say they're nice people?? Come on now, folks!
Third, and most disconcerting, who the hell is A-Start and what sort of solutions do they propose? Last I looked, they seem to advocate mandatory mental health screening for all school kids. Here's an exceprt cache copy of their conference page:
Quote
Title: The Exploitation of Youth and Families by Unregulated Residential Treatment Facilities: A Dangerous Consequence of Unmet Needs
Synopsis: Over the past decade, the number of private residential facilities for U.S. youth has grown exponentially, and many are neither licensed as mental health programs by states, nor accredited by recognized national accrediting organizations. Unregulated residential programs have been linked to reports of youth mistreatment, abuse, and death, as well as exploitation of families. This presentation will provide a description of the phernomenon in terms of common program features and the range of mistreatment reported, including harsh discipline, inappropriate seclusion and restraint, substandard psychotherapeutic interventions conducted by unqualified staff, medical and nutritional neglect, and rights violations. The presenters will then describe the conditions that seem to have facilitated the proliferation of such programs, in terms of unmet need, modern-day marketing strategies, adjunctive service industries including educational consultation and "escort" / transport services, the lack of existent and consistent regulation, and the absence of research. Finally recommendations regarding the coordination of a response to this complex phenomenon will be outlined.
Unmet needs? Wait a second, back up, let's examine this a bit. In my experience and according to a whole lot of other ppl who have been put through it, the majority of kids who land up in these gulags only unmet need is for some sane person to notice that their parents are utterly neurotic and to rescue them from all the unneccessary "help".
And these folks have never answered any questions either about their ignorance of Straight, DFAF and other manifestations of the TOUGHLOVE hategroup right there in their own camp in the Tampa Bay Area over the past 30 years nor about any affiliation w/ the Büsh people's New Freedom Initiative right there on their own campus and their partners, the Bazelon Center for Mental Health Law, http://www.bazelon.org/ (http://www.bazelon.org/) , which seems to be all about garnering ever more federal funding for mental health services?
Shouldn't we screen these people for mental health before we ask them to help improve ours? In my humble opinion, the most dangerous lunatics in the damned country are located right there inside the beltway, except when they winter in Florida.
I'm not saying they're entirely bad. In fact, they give some very good advice and food for thought right here on their fact sheet:
http://cfs.fmhi.usf.edu/projects/AStart ... tsheet.pdf (http://cfs.fmhi.usf.edu/projects/AStartDocs/factsheet.pdf)
However, they are all, except for the victim spokespeople, psyche professionals. Isn't asking them if a kid needs treatment about like asking a barber if you need a haircut? Seriously. Even well intended, well educated, compassionate people have their blind spots.
Keep close to Nature's heart... and break clear away, once in awhile, and climb a mountain or spend a week in the woods. Wash your spirit clean.
-- John Muir
_________________
fka ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Straight, Sarasota
`80 - `82
return undef() if /coercion/i;[ This Message was edited by: Eudora on 2006-03-17 23:29 ]
Post by: Antigen on March 18, 2006, 09:19:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-03-17 22:15:00, Anonymous wrote:
FYI ... 1-800 snatchmykid is beautiful .. I don't know where you come up with these little gems (spoofs) but I'm glad you do because it restores my faith in humanity when I can laugh about this effing industry instead of feeling so burdened by the sheer horror of it all.
Glad to be of service! I guess I owe it all to Crazy Mac. :wink:
Faith is a cop-out. It is intellectual bankruptcy. If the only way you can accept an assertion is by faith, then you are conceding that it can't be taken on its own merits.
--Dan Barker, author and former evangelist
Post by: BuzzKill on March 18, 2006, 12:09:00 PM
I know ya do. This is one of those things we just can not see eye to eye on.
///But I understand that some of my emails, however forwarded, copied or otherwise acquired, were into that mix too. ///
I'm not sure what you mean - but if you mean WWASP also had copies of email you had written to Carey - no doubt about it. She sold her hard drive. If you ever exchanged email with Carey Bock - WWASP has a copy of it. If your OK with that - well how can I tell you, you are wrong? Its a personal matter, weather or not one wants to take issue with what she did. You know how I feel about it.
///And, as I understand it, she took Carey for more than just a little good faith. She got a nice chunk of cold hard cash for her "help" in dialing 1-800-snatchmykid. ///
Well - I never heard that. I know Carey was supposed to pay Bozak for his help - but I heard she reneged on that obligation. Keeping in mind Carey was a happy Trekker for many months while I was also on the list - She never alluded to having paid Susan a dime. If Bozak owed Susan a kick back - I do a little doubt he paid her, as Carey didn't pay him - at least not what she had agreed to. If I recall correctly - she never paid for the cost incurred while actually in Costa Rica - the jeep rental and so on. Carey never in any way suggested she had been "exploited" by Sue until after she left the Trekker list, and probably not until after she was in contact with WWASP's lawyers.
And it amazes me, the way Carey (and you too) have twisted this whole event to make it out that Carey was "exploited"!
She wanted to get her boys Out of Dundee. She wanted help. She didn't want to go alone - and who can blame her for that? She was in contact with various Trekkers who referred her to Sue for the help she wanted - and they all worked together to help the women get to Costa Rica, and on the grounds of Dundee, to retrieve her boys. Why is it She, Carey, is glorified - and those who went to such lengths to help her are vilified?
And do you remember her calling me and my son liars for talking about the abuse at Dundee?
Her own sons gave an interview after getting to the hotel, were they too said exactly what we had related - but That she conveniently forgot all about. In fact - it was that very article that caused me to ask about specific abuses at Dundee, that I would not other wise have considered asking. Its how I learned about OP, for example.
And you've mentioned before, Sue trying to get Carey to place her sons threw PURE - suggesting the only reason Carey was given any help in retreving her sons was to get them enroll somewhere else by PURE. I remember that a lot differently as well. Remember - again - Carey and I were on good terms at the time - as well as both being on good terms with Susan - at the time. As I recall - Carey was having problems and had inquired with Susan about finding "Help". Nothing came of it. But it is unfair of Carey to present this situation in the light she has - b/c it wasn't like that. I was, at the time, in a position to know.
As for when the trouble began on Fornits - if you'll look back, I think you'll see it started when she began posting examples of Trekker email on Fornits - which was considered by all concerned, a gross breach of confidence. Selling off her Hard Drive was much worse - but her posting that email was considered an outrageous act on her part - and that was the beginning of the "Fornits wars". Things heated up a great deal once it became known what she had done with her hard drive - and heated up again, once proof was obtained she had in fact sold it. But her posting that Trekker mail was the beginning. Very few Trekkers paid any attention to Fornits prior to that. I know I had never seen this board until after that. I kinda liked it , b/c it has generally the same format as the BST board - which I had liked and was missing - so I stuck around.
///I just don't see any reason to demonize her. It's sort of unfair, in light of the fact that she probably is restrained from defending herself these days. ///
Well no - I don't want her demonized either. But I do think it worth while to make sure people know what kind of person she is. For example - some of the kids or parents just discovering all this, and hearing only her side, might think her quit the heroic lady; and there-by confide in her - and That would be a mistake - as everyone who ever did has learned. Its no different than letting people know how it is PURE operates, as far as I'm concerned.
I can believe she may have been told to stay off the boards - but I don't believe she is to inclined to follow the rules. She has always done Lots of anon posting. Why would she stop now?
Its not unlike Scheff or Berryman or Reeves claiming they never read Fornits - Bull shit.
///I'm still not convinced that we need more regulation, though. I think we need a better educated, less dependent populace. ///
I would agree about the regulation if only the laws we have were being enforced! Maybe bigger, stronger laws with more sharp teeth will help. NO harm that I can see in trying. I agree absolutely with your second thought there.
///For another, really, how smart is it to trust someone to take full custody of your kid, even holding them incommunicado from you and the rest of the world just cause they say they're nice people?? Come on now, folks! ///
Yes - its incredible isn't it. I'm amazed at my own such actions. Yet I am convinced a huge part of the problem is parents not understanding that there is no real and effective regulation and oversight. I know I never dreamed such things were possible - never mind taking place on such a massive scale! Thus my strong feeling on the need to educate the parents.
As far as the mental health advocates involvement - I am glad they are taking an interest. I think they can help.
I am somewhat involved with an advocacy group for mental illness. Consequently - I am aware that there is a very serious lack of good and appropriate care for the mentally ill - and there is a large and increasing population of mental patients. I'm not referring to the somewhat odd and eccentric - but those who are dysfunctional as a result of ill or untreated mental illness. There is no doubt in my mind, a lot of the depressed, obsessive, and borderline kids are ending up in these gulags because there is no appropriate help available - and the situations are quite extreme enough to make a family desperate for help. So - desperately searching for help they can't find at home, they start Googling, and low and behold - here is a "wonderful" program that claims to have helped thousands of kids just like theirs. There are truth in advertising laws - so surely they can't be exaggerating to much. Because they are offering mental health care; or drug rehab - they are surely regulated by state, even federal agencies. So, as it seems like the college fund will not be needed with out help, they spend the college fund on what help there is. Or, they take out second mortgages. Or maybe they are well to do and can afford it easily. Bt the point being - they are truly in need of help for their child - and help does not actually exist. Consequently - they are prime targets for the fraud and manipulation present all through out this troubled teen industry. Which is why web sites like Fornits are important. It why ISAC is so extremely valuable. It why I am always so pleased to see them pop up near the top of most Google searches. And yet - the industry continues its unchecked growth.
I am strongly opposed to mandatory mental health screening. However, I do wish educators were more educated in mental health issues. They are typically totally ignorant. Consequently - many a bright child is placed in LD/BD classrooms (typically nothing more than holding cells for throw away kids) because they are not able to complete their work, or tolerate the class room environment. There is a book with a chapter about one such child, that could represent many thousands of others just like herself - the book is "The Boy Who Couldn't Stop Washing" in case anyone is interested.
Post by: Anonymous on March 22, 2006, 10:14:00 PM
Post by: Anonymous on March 22, 2006, 11:38:00 PM
WHY?
Because they are considered CONTROVERSIAL ... NOT AN ABERRATION.
PERSONAL CHOICE -- you might not send your kid to a boot camp or wilderness program b/c you think they are ABUSIVE and/or dangerous whereas another parent might believe just the opposite.
#2 -- FAR MORE PARENTS replace theid kid after a bad experience with a program than stop, all together.
THINK ABOUT THAT .. what does that tell us?
Kids can't win for losing as long as parents have all the rights.
Post by: Anonymous on April 09, 2006, 09:28:00 PM
Tranquility Bay Documentary - 2006/03/29 07:41 So, I just have to say that I watched 10 min on this doc. and started to have a physical reaction to what I was watching, I could barely get through it.
Just the sense of abandoment, helplessness and most of all complete and utter powerlessness and defeat was just overwhelming. I have to work tommorrow and I'm lucky enough to have a job and to have somehow pushed myself above my difficult experience and other experiences- the biggest reason why this place makes me so made is that it really exacerbated an already diffcult life sitution...the adjustment period b.w recovering from the program and tackling my issues, sometimes I do wonder that one thing the program said that was right was that I could very well die if I didn't do things differently b/c I went through bad stuff after graduating, only not only were they not providing the right tools to facilitate that process, they traumatized me to the point where I couldn't figure out how to pick myself back up from where I had been before the program.
Anyway, sometimes working on this issue makes it difficult to recall and then to realize just how many kids are still are going through this and so few people know or understand the problem with them, paticularly the importance of regulation as well as extending the rights to you as they would psych wards, access to advocates, no involuntary institionalization unless is was made certain the kid could use it.
What affects me the most was the complete dominance, the inability to speak your mind, to talk to parents, to do anything voluntarily... did anyone have a moment where it all came to you, meaning you thought to yourself, 'holy ---, i'm fd? As if something in you was being annihalted ...it's hard to explain any other way- I don't know any of you began to buy into the program at any time- but i just knew I was going have to try my best to internally comply to their empty words becuase if I showed any outward signs of dissent or anger I was questioning the program and that was a very bad thing...meaning you're f---d up. In other owrds, I had to see some value, believe their was some worth in what I was doing...I was desperate to belive with so I wouldn't go crazy... DOes that make any sense at all to anyone???
I lost myself that day or, rather over the course of a few weeks. Day in, day out was the same things, same sense of complete powerlessness and the numbness & desire to graduate, for approx. 18 months, 72 weeks, 504 days, 12096 hours, 725,760 minutes . . .and always the fear of being forced to return.
I remember- aha, this is funny...kind of... a fellow alumni, shortly after I left told on of the head people at the school that I had given a dude a bj and I had not felt so much rage and fear of the headmaster calling my parents and telling them I needed to return.
Still mostly I was oddly numb to.... hmmm... night night.
Post by: Anonymous on April 12, 2006, 09:25:00 AM
I was shocked and astouneded, these camps need to be shut down!
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 9640426410 (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4069094189640426410)
Post by: Anonymous on April 13, 2006, 03:42:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on May 03, 2006, 09:07:00 AM
Buzzkill where did you get this information from?