Post by: Anonymous on January 27, 2006, 11:17:00 AM
http://www.palestine-info.net/ (http://www.palestine-info.net/)
Post by: Anonymous on January 27, 2006, 12:01:00 PM
Post by: try another castle on January 28, 2006, 12:10:00 AM
Free palestine, my ass. Hamas has killed and tortured more of their own people than Israelis. These people are voting in their doom.
If they think the Israeli occupation was bad, just wait until Hamas is in charge.
There is a saying that people often deserve their leaders.
Well... it's really not anything new. The radical factions in the palestinian territories have been in charge for decades. It's just "formal" now.
Now the palestinians can no longer blame Israel for their misery.
Post by: Anonymous on January 30, 2006, 10:25:00 AM
Post by: try another castle on January 30, 2006, 02:54:00 PM
In addition, there are many Israelis who are opposed to the violence between the two entities. They teach tolerance to children in the schools. I don't see too much of that on the Palestinian side. (I remember hearing of ONE protest that took place opposed to the intifada. Bravo for them, though.)
Post by: Anonymous on January 30, 2006, 03:07:00 PM
Post by: try another castle on January 30, 2006, 06:21:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-30 12:07:00, Anonymous wrote:
"That's the point though. No matter what the Israelis do (teaching tolerance and peace, etc) the palestinians are not changing any tiem soon, and their vote has shown us that -- that want to regress rather than progress the peace process. Israel's economy and immigration suffer tremendously because of the suicide blasts and other attacks. Even if they give up the settlements... the palestinian leadership claims they own all of Israel. It's a war... sure, a low intensity war, but it's a war -- and it won't be over until someone wins. The scenery in Israel is unbeatable, but living of fear of an enemy that lives SO CLOSE to you and is willing to blow themsleves up.. well.. how long can a nation be expected to live under those conditions and not seriously fight back? Thats all im saying..."
I totally agree with you.
_________________
"Learn from your mistakes so that one day you can repeat them precisely."[ This Message was edited by: sorry... try another castle on 2006-01-30 15:22 ]
-Trevor Goodchild
Post by: Anonymous on January 30, 2006, 06:59:00 PM
Post by: try another castle on January 30, 2006, 07:23:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-30 15:59:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Same problem over here. It's been 500 years and still these stuborn natives persist in believing we stole their land from them. I do not know how much longer it will to take before we are able to help them take a more sane view of things.
"
Bullshit. The indians didn't invade our land and try to destroy us. We invaded them. They merely defended themselves. If anything, the indians are equivalent to Israel and we are equivalent to the palestinians. It's just that in our scenario, we won and occupied the Indian territory. We were the agressors, just like the Palestinians. Either way, comparing the two is a shaky analogy, at best.
The surrounding countries all conspired to invade and destroy Israel. Isreal fought and as a result of the 6 day war, got the gaza strip and the west bank. Israel defended themselves from annihiliation. The people in the occupied territories then became known as the palestinians. Before that, there was no such thing in the modern world. There is no palestinian ethnicity. They are Jordanians, Syrians, Egyptians, and Lebanese. In addition, their original home countries won't take them back.
Even before Israel was re-created after WWII, everyone in that area fought to eradicate the Jews. Even England wanted them out of there.
I think that if Palestine and the surrounding countries succeed in destroying Israel and occupy that land, they will be as merciless as we were to the Indians.
People who support the Palestinian agenda should really read up on the history of Israel and the six day war.
I don't have any problem giving the west bank and gaza strip to the palestinians. I just don't think they will be satisfied with that. They will not be happy until Israel is no more. I guarantee you, that the terrorist attacks will not stop once Palestine has its own government and is sovereign. In fact, I'd be willing to put money down.
_________________
"Learn from your mistakes so that one day you can repeat them precisely."[ This Message was edited by: sorry... try another castle on 2006-01-30 16:33 ]
-Trevor Goodchild
Post by: Anonymous on January 30, 2006, 10:17:00 PM
Jan. 31 (Bloomberg) -- The U.S., European Union, United Nations and Russia said Hamas officials must form a Palestinian government that accepts Israel's existence or risk a cutoff of international aid.
The diplomatic group, known as the Quartet, threatened late yesterday in London to review all aid should Hamas maintain its violent opposition and refusal to endorse peace efforts. The Quartet's statement set a deadline on demands that European leaders and President George W. Bush made after Hamas's surprise election victory.
``Once these conditions are fulfilled, the European Union will stand ready to continue supporting Palestinian economic development,'' EU High Representative Javier Solana said after conferring with U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan and Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov.
At stake is hundreds of millions of dollars to support the Palestinian administration and building projects. Europe is the biggest donor to the Palestinian Authority, spending 500 million euros ($604 million) in 2005 on utilities, food aid, social services and election support.
Hamas has threatened to tap Iran, now battling the EU and U.S. over its nuclear program, to replace any lost European money.
Gaza Building
A senior U.S. official said the Palestinian Authority needs about $100 million to function each month and relies mostly on donations. In jeopardy may also be a Group of Eight pledge in July to help raise $9 billion over three years to help the Palestinians develop the Gaza Strip, which Israel evacuated in August.
Rice said the U.S. and its partners would consider Palestinian humanitarian needs, signaling that aid would likely continue to flow to charities even if Hamas didn't change its positions. The UN said the 273 schools and 54 health care facilities it runs for Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza almost certainly will keep operating. The U.S. pays a fifth of the operating budget for that effort.
Officials said there would be no cut in aid to the current Palestinian government led by Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas of the defeated Fatah party.
``There is a commitment here to try and live up to the obligations that were undertaken to the caretaker government'' overseen by Abbas, Rice said. Abbas said yesterday he intended to serve out the remaining three years of his term.
U.S. officials said forming a government could take two to three months, giving Hamas that time to answer the demands.
``We want to work with a government that is a partner in peace,'' Bush said in Washington yesterday. ``Get rid of your arms, disavow terrorism.''
Hamas Plea
Ismail Hania, who headed the Hamas election slate, urged the EU and other international donors yesterday to continue funding the Palestinian Authority once the group enters the government.
``We will adopt reform procedures leading to administrative and financial transparency,'' Hania said at his home in the Shati refugee camp. ``All Palestinian income from donors, taxes and customs will flow into the Finance Ministry.''
Rice sought consensus among partners on the aid question, and senior U.S. officials told reporters accompanying the secretary of state they were satisfied with the agreement reached on the money question.
``We are working into the same direction, with the same aspirations,'' said Ursula Plassnik, the foreign minister of Austria, which holds the rotating presidency of the EU.
Promoting Democracy
One senior U.S. official, reflecting on the Hamas victory, said the Bush administration still believed that promoting democracy was the best option throughout the region, even when the results are not ideal.
Along those lines, the Quartet congratulated the Palestinians on holding ``an electoral process that was free, fair and secure.''
``Those who have been elected by the Palestinian people have an obligation,'' Rice said after the meeting. ``And that obligation is to speak to the aspiration of the Palestinian people and for a peaceful life.''
Earlier yesterday, some European officials suggested that they would take a wait-and-see approach in deciding whether to cut aid to a Hamas-led government. A senior U.S. official said while there may have been differences in tone throughout the day, everyone was committed to the same set of principles and consequences.
Most U.S. aid to the Palestinians by contrast is funneled to humanitarian groups via the U.S. Agency for International Development. It has only twice given money directly to the PA, including last year when it sent $70 million to prop up the new president, Abbas, after the death of Yasser Arafat.
Different Approaches
The U.S. and EU have had different approaches to Hamas in the past, so their joint statement signaled a consensus that for a long time was hard to reach.
The U.S. classified Hamas as a terrorist organization in 1992; the EU only did so in 2003.
While a U.S. ban on contacts with Hamas went into effect with its designation as a terrorist organization, the EU for a decade longer tried to mediate between Hamas, Israel and the Palestinian Authority.
To contact the reporter on this story:
Janine Zacharia in London at [email protected].
Last Updated: January 30, 2006 21:38 EST
Post by: Anonymous on January 30, 2006, 10:32:00 PM
Quote
Bullshit. The indians didn't invade our land and try to destroy us. We invaded them. They merely defended themselves. If anything, the indians are equivalent to Israel and we are equivalent to the palestinians. It's just that in our scenario, we won and occupied the Indian territory. We were the agressors, just like the Palestinians. Either way, comparing the two is a shaky analogy, at best.
Humans have been invading and taking over each others territories since the beggining of mankind.
Do you really believe that the native american indians would have survived intact, unchanged, if the settlers didn't take them over?
Post by: try another castle on January 30, 2006, 11:28:00 PM
_________________
"Learn from your mistakes so that one day you can repeat them precisely."[ This Message was edited by: sorry... try another castle on 2006-01-30 20:29 ]
-Trevor Goodchild
Post by: webcrawler on January 31, 2006, 12:11:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-01-30 16:23:00, sorry... try another castle wrote:
"Quote
On 2006-01-30 15:59:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Same problem over here. It's been 500 years and still these stuborn natives persist in believing we stole their land from them. I do not know how much longer it will to take before we are able to help them take a more sane view of things.
"
Bullshit. The indians didn't invade our land and try to destroy us. We invaded them. They merely defended themselves. If anything, the indians are equivalent to Israel and we are equivalent to the palestinians. It's just that in our scenario, we won and occupied the Indian territory. We were the agressors, just like the Palestinians. Either way, comparing the two is a shaky analogy, at best.
The surrounding countries all conspired to invade and destroy Israel. Isreal fought and as a result of the 6 day war, got the gaza strip and the west bank. Israel defended themselves from annihiliation. The people in the occupied territories then became known as the palestinians. Before that, there was no such thing in the modern world. There is no palestinian ethnicity. They are Jordanians, Syrians, Egyptians, and Lebanese. In addition, their original home countries won't take them back.
Even before Israel was re-created after WWII, everyone in that area fought to eradicate the Jews. Even England wanted them out of there.
I think that if Palestine and the surrounding countries succeed in destroying Israel and occupy that land, they will be as merciless as we were to the Indians.
People who support the Palestinian agenda should really read up on the history of Israel and the six day war.
I don't have any problem giving the west bank and gaza strip to the palestinians. I just don't think they will be satisfied with that. They will not be happy until Israel is no more. I guarantee you, that the terrorist attacks will not stop once Palestine has its own government and is sovereign. In fact, I'd be willing to put money down.
_________________"Learn from your mistakes so that one day you can repeat them precisely."[ This Message was edited by: sorry... try another castle on 2006-01-30 16:33 ]"
-Trevor Goodchild
I'm just not following how you compare Israel with the Indians. That land was taken from the Palestians. That is why Jordan was created. Besides Jordan the Middle East has been spilt up into different countries by outsiders wishing to serve their own agendas.
So lets just say another ethnic group that is being slaughtered comes to the attention of the world. It's decided they will come to the United States to have their own state and everyone already here must either live by their rules and forfeit their homes and land or move to Texas. It's not right.
I don't support the violence over there, but they want their land back and the right to self govern without Israeli occupation.
They voted for Hamas and now the United States and other countries are saying they will not recognize their govt. under Hamas. I mean which is it? Our president is currently sending over troops to kill people some place else in the name of democracy and the right to self govern, but really both situations are really a farce. Our govt. only supports govts that are willing to be U.S. puppets.
Nothing personal, but my opinion just differs on this matter. I'm also no Middle East expert and don't have the answers. A friend of mine is from the West Bank and I have had my eyes opened to a lot of shit they have to deal with too.
Post by: try another castle on January 31, 2006, 12:50:00 AM
Also, the land was taken because Israel was about to be attacked. (as opposed to this nebulous idea of WMD in Iraq, where it was obvious, at least from my viewpoint, that Iraq wasn't planning on attacking the US or invading it.) The surrounding countries had their troops and tanks lined up on Israel's borders, on all sides. Israel just made a tactical first move to use the element of surprise. Had they not, it was obvious that the invasion of Israel would have happened. After the 6 days of handing their enemies' asses back to them, Israel claimed that land. Probably not a good move in hindsight. It might have been better to just go in, kick their asses, and get out. I honestly don't know which would have been the better move on their part. But the pre-emption was valid, as opposed to Bush's nebulous idea of pre-emption.
As for the funding, I personally think that palestine never should have been receiving aid to begin with. Now that hamas has been elected, I definitely think the US should withdraw their help.
Post by: Anonymous on January 31, 2006, 11:13:00 AM
Quote
I don't support the violence over there, but they want their land back and the right to self govern without Israeli occupation.
The land is no longer theirs. Sure, it's harsh, but it's reality. This past century has seen tens of millions of people displaced during many different wars. You don't see them blowing themselves up to reclaim 'their land' after border changes that were approved by the UN. What if Mexicans started coming across the border to blow themselves up inside Texas, claiming our victory over Santa Ana was a farse, how do you think Americans would respond? Or how about California, Arizona, New Mexico. Territories and land taken by war has been the standard for a LONG time. Why is Israel the exception? If Americans really believe the palestinians have any right to any land other than that of the original 1948 borders, they should also believe in giving back America to native americans. The native american anology barely stands though, because the palestinians left by choice. When the arab countries were about to invade the day after the UN approved Israel as a state, they told the pal's to leave and they could return and settle in the newly conquered terrority... after kicking all the Jews into the sea of course. If Israel followed the arab strategy of mass-murder and displacement, they could easily take over the entire land mass and kick the palestinians out into the sea! Why don't they? I don't know, but the arabs had no problem trying it. The arabs are pissed because they have always dominated the area.. now the western world does. Round and round this religious merry-go-round we go... where it stops, nobody knows!!
Post by: try another castle on January 31, 2006, 09:19:00 PM
And then maybe, if they try to attack Israel as a sovereign nation, Israel can come in and kick their asses and kick them out of there once and for all, because they sure don't deserve their own land, as far as I'm concerned. I don't condone giving terrorists their own country and base of operations, with US taxpayer money going to fund it. (It certainly won't be the first time the US has done that.) Especially if that so-called country is determined to rid the world of Israel.
Post by: webcrawler on January 31, 2006, 09:36:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-31 08:13:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Quote
I don't support the violence over there, but they want their land back and the right to self govern without Israeli occupation.
The land is no longer theirs. Sure, it's harsh, but it's reality. This past century has seen tens of millions of people displaced during many different wars. You don't see them blowing themselves up to reclaim 'their land' after border changes that were approved by the UN. What if Mexicans started coming across the border to blow themselves up inside Texas, claiming our victory over Santa Ana was a farse, how do you think Americans would respond? Or how about California, Arizona, New Mexico. Territories and land taken by war has been the standard for a LONG time. Why is Israel the exception? If Americans really believe the palestinians have any right to any land other than that of the original 1948 borders, they should also believe in giving back America to native americans. The native american anology barely stands though, because the palestinians left by choice. When the arab countries were about to invade the day after the UN approved Israel as a state, they told the pal's to leave and they could return and settle in the newly conquered terrority... after kicking all the Jews into the sea of course. If Israel followed the arab strategy of mass-murder and displacement, they could easily take over the entire land mass and kick the palestinians out into the sea! Why don't they? I don't know, but the arabs had no problem trying it. The arabs are pissed because they have always dominated the area.. now the western world does. Round and round this religious merry-go-round we go... where it stops, nobody knows!!"
Believe me I have thought about what you are talking about many times regarding Indians and Mexicans reclaiming their land. It would be frightening to say the least. Most of us are mixed with so many different ethnic backgrounds that we would have no "home" country to return to. It would be a nightmare.
Now I'm going to just say a few of my thoughts on the situation with Israel and the Palestians as I have been thinking about it for quite sometime. Mind you I do think everything you are saying makes sense whether or not I believe it to be the right thing.
This part of the Middle East has been under rule by numerous empires throughout history and it's likely conflicts will continue even after our deaths. However, the 6 Day War is more recent and therefore still in the forefront of people's minds versus the time period when Europeans first came to America to accquire the land.
Now saying all this I don't think it's feasible for Isreal to close up shop and move all their citizens somewhere else. I can though empathize with the Palestians and their ancestors that have been displaced from the land that was theirs before 1948.
Many people that identify as Palestians feel they are at war with Israel. I find suicide bombing deplorable, but I am also able to look at it from another angle. Meaning the Palestians doing this do not have the military resources as the Israeli Army so it is no suprise that they employ this type of warfare.
Personally, I believe war is trajic anytime, even if it's out of necessity. War brings death. The Western world has set the standards for what is fair in war and of course what the Palestians have been doing does not fit into those standards. When we really think about it though, dropping bombs out of the sky is just as horrible as suicide bombers. The govts and media of the Western world do a really good job of covering up the fact that when bombs drop from planes at supposed military targets they are in fact also killing innocent civilians. Israel, The United States, and the remaining Western world also have blood on their hands.
My aplogies for the long rant. I'm just really sitting here giving this a lot of thought and typing it out.
Post by: try another castle on January 31, 2006, 10:33:00 PM
Quote
Now saying all this I don't think it's feasible for Isreal to close up shop and move all their citizens somewhere else. I can though empathize with the Palestians and their ancestors that have been displaced from the land that was theirs before 1948.
But that's just it. It WASN'T their land. The land didn't really belong to anyone. It was a made up of a mixture of jews, jordinians, egyptians and syrians, with the jordinians, egyptians and syrians trying to kill and evict all of the jews from that area. (With the UK's help.)
As far as I'm concerned, they can go fuck themselves.
Post by: webcrawler on January 31, 2006, 10:51:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-01-31 19:33:00, sorry... try another castle wrote:
"QuoteNow saying all this I don't think it's feasible for Isreal to close up shop and move all their citizens somewhere else. I can though empathize with the Palestians and their ancestors that have been displaced from the land that was theirs before 1948.
But that's just it. It WASN'T their land. The land didn't really belong to anyone. It was a made up of a mixture of jews, jordinians, egyptians and syrians, with the jordinians, egyptians and syrians trying to kill and evict all of the jews from that area. (With the UK's help.)
As far as I'm concerned, they can go fuck themselves.
"
You are right, there were many other ethnic groups. I do realize it wasn't until the war that many began to idenify themselves as a Palestian. Regarless of how they are indentifying themselves I am mainly making the point the people that inhabitated that land were unfairly displaced in my opinion.
I also believe it's unfair for every Palestian there to have to suffer the repurcussions of what is going on between the two sides. The infracstructure of their cities are being bombed and bulldozed constantly and everyone of them is viewed as a potential terrorist. When my friend returns home to visit they must fly into Jordan and then take a crappy bus ride to the West Bank because Palestian men are not allowed to fly into Israel. I know my friend and her husband are not what people consider terrorists, yet they are treated like terrorists every time they return home.
I am also disgusted that people in Isreal are faced with having to fear for their lives every time they leave their house. With Arafat and Sharon out of the picture I don't know if it's going to get worse or better.
Both sides are at fault at this point. I really don't see this conflict ever ending. It's depressing to think about it along with all the other problems in the world. It seems the only way things will disapear is when the world's rulers decide to blow up the entire world.
Post by: Anonymous on February 01, 2006, 01:54:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on February 01, 2006, 09:25:00 AM
Quote
It seems the only way things will disapear is when the world's rulers decide to blow up the entire world.
OR just the middle east. This conflict would have been solved LONG AGO if it were not for the influence of religion. It's like a bunch of school children unwilling to compromise. I've met people from both sides.. if they wanted peace they'd have it already.
Post by: Antigen on February 01, 2006, 12:37:00 PM
And, really, there are some very obvious factors here that people are afraid to even mention for fear of being called antisemitic. Remember the rallying cry to establish the state of Israel? "A land w/o a people for a people w/o a land!" Uh, no people in those lands? When, in all of recorded history, has Jerusalem ever been a ghost town? And who are all these angry people now claiming a right to self determination? Where did they come from, all these Palestinians who didn't exist a couple of generations ago?
It's not my call or yours what kind of government they want or which leaders they choose. I certainly wouldn't advocate Islamic theocracy (or any other theocracy) here in America. But they're not Americans, they're Palestinians. And the Israelis are not Semites, they're mostly European immigrants.
I just think there are two or more sides to any war.
There's no biochemical test to distinguish the so-called manic-depressive person from the elated or despondent football fan. Nor is there any resan to assume the manic-depressive's inner experience is driven by twisted molecules while the football fan's is driven, at worst, by twisted values
Dr. Peter Breggin, Toxic Psychiatry
Post by: try another castle on February 02, 2006, 08:09:00 AM
Carter calls for funding Palestinians (http://http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1137605924691&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull)
By ETGAR LEFKOVITS
____________________________________
A day after Hamas swept to an upset victory in the Palestinian parliamentary elections, former US President Jimmy Carter on Thursday said that Wednesday's voting had been orderly and fair.
"The elections were completely honest, completely fair, completely safe and without violence," the former president said.
Carter, who led an 85-member international observer team from around the world organized by the 'National Democratic Institute' in partnership with 'The Carter Center,' urged the international community to directly or indirectly fund the new Palestinian Government even though it will be led by an internationally-declared foreign terror organization.
"The Palestinian Government is destitute, and in desperate financial straits. I hope that support for the new government will be forthcoming," Carter said at a Jerusalem press conference.
He added that if international law barred donor countries from directly funding a Hamas-led government than the US and the EU should bypass the Palestinian Authority and provide the "much-needed" money to the Palestinians via non-governmental channels such as UN agencies.
"Regardless of the government, I would hope that potential donors find alternative means to be generous to the Palestinian people [even] if the donor decides to bypass the Palestinian government completely," Carter said, stressing that his main concern was to avert the "suffering" of the Palestinian people, which he said could lead to a new cycle of violence.
He noted that the heavily funded Palestinian Government would run out of money at the end of next month.
Hamas, the largest and most powerful of the Palestinian terror organizations, which advocates Israel's destruction, has carried out scores of bombings over the last five years of Palestinian violence, attacks which have killed hundreds of Israeli civilians.
Earlier Thursday, Israeli statesman Shimon Peres had opined in a radio interview that international aid to a Hamas-led government would likely be terminated.
The former Democratic president's comments came as US President Bush said that Hamas cannot be a partner for Middle East peacemaking without renouncing violence, reiterating that the United States will not deal with Palestinian leaders who do not recognize Israel's right to exist.
Carter, who has long supported the participation of Hamas in the Palestinian elections, voiced the hope that the Islamic terror group would act "responsibly" now that it had won the elections.
Carter, who led an 85-member international observer team from around the world organized by the 'National Democratic Institute' in partnership with 'The Carter Center,' urged the international community to directly or indirectly fund the new Palestinian Government even though it will be led by an internationally-declared foreign terror organization.
"The Palestinian Government is destitute, and in desperate financial straits. I hope that support for the new government will be forthcoming," Carter said at a Jerusalem press conference.
He added that if international law barred donor countries from directly funding a Hamas-led government than the US and the EU should bypass the Palestinian Authority and provide the "much-needed" money to the Palestinians via non-governmental channels such as UN agencies.
"Regardless of the government, I would hope that potential donors find alternative means to be generous to the Palestinian people [even] if the donor decides to bypass the Palestinian government completely," Carter said, stressing that his main concern was to avert the "suffering" of the Palestinian people, which he said could lead to a new cycle of violence.
He noted that the heavily funded Palestinian Government would run out of money at the end of next month.
Hamas, the largest and most powerful of the Palestinian terror organizations, which advocates Israel's destruction, has carried out scores of bombings over the last five years of Palestinian violence, attacks which have killed hundreds of Israeli civilians.
Earlier Thursday, Israeli statesman Shimon Peres had opined in a radio interview that international aid to a Hamas-led government would likely be terminated.
The former Democratic president's comments came as US President Bush said that Hamas cannot be a partner for Middle East peacemaking without renouncing violence, reiterating that the United States will not deal with Palestinian leaders who do not recognize Israel's right to exist.
Carter, who has long supported the participation of Hamas in the Palestinian elections, voiced the hope that the Islamic terror group would act "responsibly" now that it had won the elections.
"My hope is that as Hamas assumes a major role in the next government, whatever that might be, it will take a position on international standards of responsibility," he said at the news conference, held at an east Jerusalem hotel.
The 85-member election observers team, which was led by Carter, former Swedish Prime Minister Carl Blidt former Albanian President Rexhep Meidani and former Spanish Foreign Minister Ana Palacio, included political and civic leaders from 22 countries around the world.
"It is now up to the elected leaders and representatives to construct genuinely democratic institutions and processes that will bring the peace and prosperity that the Palestinian people deserve, within a free and independent state," the group said in a preliminary report on the parliamentary elections issued Thursday.
"It is universally accepted that democratic elections and democratic governance are about employing peaceful means to achieve political goals," the report stated.
__________________________________________
Jimmy, I've lost all respect for you, dude. I had no idea you were that naive.
Post by: Anonymous on February 02, 2006, 10:27:00 AM
GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip - Armed militants angered by a cartoon drawing of the Prophet Muhammad published in European media surrounded EU offices in Gaza Thursday and threatened to kidnap foreigners as outrage over the caricatures spread across the Islamic world.
About a dozen gunmen with ties to the Fatah Party approached the office of the EU Commission. Three jumped on the outer wall and the rest took up positions at the entrance.
In a statement read by one of the gunmen, the group demanded apologies from the governments of Norway, Denmark, France and Germany and called on Palestinians to boycott the products of these countries.
Palestinian gunmen in the West Bank city of Nablus said they were searching apartments for foreigners from several European countries to try to kidnap them to protest the drawings. The claim by the gunmen could not immediately be verified independently.
In a phone call to The Associated Press, a member of the Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, a violent offshoot of Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas' Fatah Party, said members of his group are also asking hotel owners in the city not to host citizens of five European countries, including France and Denmark.
In Paris, the daily newspaper France Soir fired its managing editor after it republished the caricatures Wednesday, and Pakistani protesters chanting "Death to France!"
The furor over the drawings, which first ran in a Danish paper in September, cuts to the question of which is more sacred in the Western world � freedom of expression or respect for religious beliefs. The cartoons include an image of Muhammad wearing a turban shaped as a bomb with a burning fuse.
Islamic tradition bars any depiction of the prophet to prevent idolatry. The drawings have divided opinion within Europe and the Middle East, where they have prompted boycotts of Danish goods, bomb threats and demonstrations against Danish facilities.
France Soir and several other European papers reprinted the pictures in a show of solidarity with the Danish daily.
----
They think THIS is how you get an apology? I think they underestimate the Western response to such actions.
/haven't seen the cartoon
//anyone have a link to it?
Post by: Anonymous on February 02, 2006, 10:52:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-02-01 09:37:00, Eudora wrote:
"So what is it about the Palestinians that makes them so prone to violence? I saw a brief news clip of the newly elected Palestinian leader trying to answer the question of whether he'll condemn terrorism. He didn't say no, what he said was yes, provided you include in the definition terrorist acts committed by Israel against the Palestinians.
And, really, there are some very obvious factors here that people are afraid to even mention for fear of being called antisemitic. Remember the rallying cry to establish the state of Israel? "A land w/o a people for a people w/o a land!" Uh, no people in those lands? When, in all of recorded history, has Jerusalem ever been a ghost town? And who are all these angry people now claiming a right to self determination? Where did they come from, all these Palestinians who didn't exist a couple of generations ago?
It's not my call or yours what kind of government they want or which leaders they choose. I certainly wouldn't advocate Islamic theocracy (or any other theocracy) here in America. But they're not Americans, they're Palestinians. And the Israelis are not Semites, they're mostly European immigrants.
I just think there are two or more sides to any war.There's no biochemical test to distinguish the so-called manic-depressive person from the elated or despondent football fan. Nor is there any resan to assume the manic-depressive's inner experience is driven by twisted molecules while the football fan's is driven, at worst, by twisted values
Dr. Peter Breggin, Toxic Psychiatry
"
well said !
I think there is plenty of hate and fear to go around in the middle east. One breeds the other.Its kinda like the "which came first.chicken or teh egg theory".
Post by: teachback on February 02, 2006, 12:02:00 PM
Post by: starry-eyed pirate on February 02, 2006, 01:34:00 PM
Having said that, I'll now say this:
I am not Jewish but I admire the Jews for their tenacity as a people. I've read books on Jewish history and have read the Torah. I have listened to Palestinian speakers. I have compassion for the Palestinians and the Jews. Violence sucks. I can't stand to see children sufferin'.
I have to say I think George W. Bush is about the dimmest wit that ever led this countrys' government. He is the King of all idiots!! His blatent hippocracy astounds me!! He obviously believes in violence as a solution to the worlds' problems and yet states that Hamas, now the democratically elected representatives of the Palestinian people must renounce violence, if they want to be partners in peace!! Now, in general I agree that violence does not promote peace, but in light of the U.S. occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan, not to mention all the shit goin' down in Columbia. I have to wonder why it is acceptable for the U.S. to resort to violence but not acceptable for Hamas to resort to violence ?? The number of "innocent" civillians killed by Hamas is nothing compared to the "collateral damage" caused by the U.S. invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan. If you ask me the U.S. government is a terrorist organization themselves. Remember "Shock an' Awe" ??
I'm just sick of all these groups and organizations and institutions and governments who espouse violence. Why don't we just kill ever'one who believes in violence and then we'd have a peaceful world ??(kidding, of course)
From here I could go on into some long starry-eyed discourse on how the human race are all members of one family, and we should all renounce violence, not just Hamas and Al Qaida and the IRA and the Maoists in Nepal and ETA in Spain and the Chechans but also the Israelis and the Americans and the British and the Russians and the Chineese, etc. Violence is terrorizing whether it comes from a daisy cutter bomb paid for by American taxpayers or a Palestinian girl who boards a bus in Tel-Aviv with explosives strapped to her body. To distinguish between the 2 in such a way as to characterize one method as moral and the other as immoral is not only ignorant and assinine but insane.
At some point someones' got to be strong enough not to hit back.
Peace. For real!!! ::dove::
_________________
If you would have justice in this world, then begin to see that a human being is not a means to some end. People are not commodities. When human beings are just to one another government becomes obsolete and real freedom is born; SPIRITUAL ANARCHY.[ This Message was edited by: starry-eyed pirate on 2006-02-02 15:14 ]
Post by: Anonymous on February 02, 2006, 07:40:00 PM
Post by: try another castle on February 02, 2006, 08:37:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-02-02 07:27:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Source (http://http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/palestinians_prophet_drawings;_ylt=AqAVXVb4fnGtsz0pLxRmhh6s0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA2Z2szazkxBHNlYwN0bQ--)
GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip - Armed militants angered by a cartoon drawing of the Prophet Muhammad published in European media surrounded EU offices in Gaza Thursday and threatened to kidnap foreigners as outrage over the caricatures spread across the Islamic world.
About a dozen gunmen with ties to the Fatah Party approached the office of the EU Commission. Three jumped on the outer wall and the rest took up positions at the entrance.
In a statement read by one of the gunmen, the group demanded apologies from the governments of Norway, Denmark, France and Germany and called on Palestinians to boycott the products of these countries.
Palestinian gunmen in the West Bank city of Nablus said they were searching apartments for foreigners from several European countries to try to kidnap them to protest the drawings. The claim by the gunmen could not immediately be verified independently.
In a phone call to The Associated Press, a member of the Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, a violent offshoot of Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas' Fatah Party, said members of his group are also asking hotel owners in the city not to host citizens of five European countries, including France and Denmark.
In Paris, the daily newspaper France Soir fired its managing editor after it republished the caricatures Wednesday, and Pakistani protesters chanting "Death to France!"
The furor over the drawings, which first ran in a Danish paper in September, cuts to the question of which is more sacred in the Western world � freedom of expression or respect for religious beliefs. The cartoons include an image of Muhammad wearing a turban shaped as a bomb with a burning fuse.
Islamic tradition bars any depiction of the prophet to prevent idolatry. The drawings have divided opinion within Europe and the Middle East, where they have prompted boycotts of Danish goods, bomb threats and demonstrations against Danish facilities.
France Soir and several other European papers reprinted the pictures in a show of solidarity with the Danish daily.
----
They think THIS is how you get an apology? I think they underestimate the Western response to such actions.
/haven't seen the cartoon
//anyone have a link to it?
"
Yes, clearly this is a rational entity who is certainly qualified to taken seriously by other countries and should receive financial aid. Hell, man, we should let them join the UN while they are at it. (Not like there aren't any repressive, thug regimes already in the UN.)
Post by: Anonymous on February 03, 2006, 09:34:00 AM
(http://http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b0/Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_drawings.jpg)
These seem light-hearted to me... I don't get what the big deal is. I've seen the Jew cartoons in Arab media and they are just as bad, if not worse. These people take their religion much too seriously if you ask me. Look how easily manipulated and angered they are because of it. ::armed::
Post by: Anonymous on February 03, 2006, 09:38:00 AM
(http://http://www.jcpa.org/phas/blood%20libel_cartoon.gif)
(http://http://www.jcpa.org/phas/Bush_cartoon.gif)
(http://http://www.jcpa.org/phas/world_cartoon.gif)
(http://http://www.jcpa.org/phas/octopus_cartoon.gif)
(http://http://www.jcpa.org/phas/Hitler_cartoon.gif)
(http://http://www.jcpa.org/phas/pope-Jew_cartoon.gif)
source with more info: http://www.jcpa.org/phas/phas-21.htm (http://www.jcpa.org/phas/phas-21.htm)
I'm not picking sides, but the hypocrisy of the arab world is unbelievable.
::armed::
Post by: Antigen on February 03, 2006, 10:08:00 AM
So I took the opportunity to inform the dumb red neck of a project I was undertaking at the time. Many people have never even noticed this, but there are a good many documents in circulation bearing Arabic signs and symbols. If you look closelely at federal documents, you'll find just about all of them that you come across have these designs embellished right into the design. The symbols, usual Aribic numerals, are often located near the corners of some common US Federal documents. And I told the guy to keep a close watch for these and to bring them to me for disposal.
The dumb red neck cocked his head slightly to the side like a confused cocker spaniel puppy. Kazi and his brother got a good laugh out of it. Kazi very timidly said to me "Ya' know, some people think that Israel is a client state of the US." "Nah", I said, "It's not like that. The US is a client state of Israel. If we were calling the shots, I wouldn't be living in a cruddy little apartment in this part of town, I'd have myself one of those $300k guaranteed home construction loans just like immigrants to Israel get." (this was before we were allowed to even think about criticizing the settlements)
I think the cartoons are spot on. Unlike the No. Korean ones that regularly depict No. Korean soldiers riding rockets into our capital, the Palestinian cartoons depict Israel and the US killing a lot of Palestinians for God, money and oil.
Do you think Native Americans, 500 years after the influx, have some right to autonomy, soverignty and self government here in America? I do. Well, only 58 years ago, the great powers of the world decided that the people who had lived in Palestine for thousands of years didn't really need all that land and Europe was none to fond of the Jewish folks who had fled the Ottoman Empire some generations prior. And so they just up and started kicking those people out of their homes and towns and moving European immigrants into them. And they called it good. They called it God's will, Manifest Destiny and all that.
There are at least two sides to every war. If your litmus test for mideast conflicts is [your favorite faction] can't be wrong, you'll go wrong most of the time.
God is the Asylum of Ignorance.
--Baruch Spinoza, Dutch-Jewish philosopher
Post by: Anonymous on February 03, 2006, 11:38:00 AM
I too believe there are two sides to any argument, and I trust that most people who are willing to die and fight believe what cause they are fighting for in some fashion. I think this has always been a historical given, even including mercenaries to some extent. It's not hard to divide people and make them hate each other. That much is painfully obvious.
So I don't think this is anything new. Israel/Palestine's actual land mass is miniscule. You can drive north to south in a few hours, east to west in even less. I wonder why so much attention is brought to this conflict. There are many other conflicts going on right now that are taking many more lives than this.
In my very cynical opinion, I see this conflict leading to a larger war. How can it not? What historical basis can one find to support the idea that peace will spread throughout the area? I can't find any example of this.
Add on top of all of this, that a large portion of this world believe the land of Israel is some how special, or more holy than any other part of the Earth, and you get a recipe for a disaster. How many people in the US govt. believe in rapture and all that stuff? How many Jews believe in the return of the Messiah? How many arabs believe this also? These are the people who are fighting over the area. And, of course, the children of those people who just happened to be born in that area -- who might not believe these things -- are caught right in the middle. Then they grow up hating the opposite side. And more immigrants believing the crazy fables of holyland, etc... come in and start the cycle all over again.
Anyways... theres no point to this rant.
I found the arab symbolism thing interesting... because it reminded me of the flight 93 memorial. (which I think is being re-thought now)
(http://http://www.zombietime.com/flight_93_memorial_project/flag_memorial_overlay.gif)
Hmm... that remind you of anything?
Post by: Anonymous on February 03, 2006, 11:41:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on February 03, 2006, 11:53:00 AM
Post by: Anonymous on February 03, 2006, 11:53:00 AM
ISTANBUL, Turkey (AP) - In the most expensive Turkish movie ever made, American soldiers in Iraq crash a wedding and pump a little boy full of lead in front of his mother.
They kill dozens of innocent people with random machine gun fire, shoot the groom in the head, and drag those left alive to Abu Ghraib prison - where a Jewish doctor cuts out their organs, which he sells to rich people in New York, London and Tel Aviv.
"Valley of the Wolves Iraq" - set to open in Turkey on Friday - feeds off the increasingly negative feelings many Turks harbor toward their longtime NATO allies: Americans.
The movie, which reportedly cost some $10 million, is the latest in a new genre of popular culture that demonizes the United States. It comes on the heels of a novel called "Metal Storm" about a war between Turkey and the U.S., which has been a best seller for months.
One recent opinion poll revealed the depth of the hostility in Turkey toward Americans: 53 percent of Turks who responded to the 2005 Pew Global Attitudes survey associated Americans with the word "rude"; 70 percent with "violent"; 68 percent with "greedy"; and 57 percent with "immoral."
Advance tickets are already selling out across Turkey for the film, which has dialogue in Turkish, Arabic, Kurdish and English. In addition to Turkey, the film is set to be shown in more than a dozen other countries - including the United States, Britain, Germany, The Netherlands, Britain, Denmark, Russia, Egypt, Syria and Australia.
The movie's American stars are Billy Zane, who plays a self-professed "peacekeeper sent by God," and Gary Busey as the Jewish-American doctor.
U.S. soldiers have become hate figures in Muslim countries around the world after the unpopular war in Iraq. But here in Turkey, a personal grudge fuels the resentment.
"Valley of the Wolves Iraq" opens with a true story: On July 4, 2003, in Sulaymaniyah, northern Iraq, troops from the U.S. Army's 173rd Airborne Brigade raided and ransacked a Turkish special forces office, threw hoods over the heads of 11 Turkish special forces officers, and held them in custody for more than two days.
The Americans said they had been looking for Iraqi insurgents and unwittingly rounded up the Turks because they were not in uniform. Still, the incident damaged Turkish-U.S. relations and hurt Turkish national pride. Turks traditionally idolize their soldiers; most enthusiastically send their sons off for mandatory military service.
In the movie, one of the Turkish special forces officers commits suicide to save his honor. His farewell letter reaches Polat Alemdar, an elite Turkish intelligence officer who travels to northern Iraq with a small group of men to avenge the humiliation.
There they find a rogue group of U.S. soldiers led by officer Sam William Marshall - played by Zane. In the bloodfest that ensues, the small band of Turks bonds with the people of Iraq and eventually ends American atrocities there, killing Zane and his men in the final scene.
"The scenario is great," Istanbul Mayor Kadir Topbas told The Associated Press after the film was shown at a posh opening gala Tuesday night. "It was very successful. ... a soldier's honor must never be damaged."
But Topbas and other Turks at the premiere weren't too concerned about how the movie would be perceived in the United States.
"There isn't going to be a war over this," said Nefise Karatay, a Turkish model lounging on a sofa after the premiere. "Everyone knows that Americans have a good side. That's not what this is about."
---
Associated Press Writer Selcan Hacaoglu in Ankara contributed to this report.
http://apnews1.iwon.com/article/20060203/D8FHL1Q81.html (http://apnews1.iwon.com/article/20060203/D8FHL1Q81.html)
---
This is why I think there will end up being a larger war. They are making movies about American soldiers being cold-blooded murderers. Hollywood is about to start making a bunch of 9/11 and Iraq movies showing Arabs as cold-blooded murderers.
I have to say, from a historical perspective it's interesting to experience in person the events of today. I feel like the stage is being set for something bigger, and bloodier on the horizon.
Something of which I want no part of. But it seems like a large portion of the world does. ::unhappy::