Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => World Wide Association of Specialty Programs and Schools (WWASPS) => Topic started by: Anonymous on December 01, 2005, 12:07:00 PM
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Why don't you guys just get a life and fight for a real cause! You can sit on here and cry your eyes out each and everyday about how poorly you were treated in the program, and how the abused you, but it will do no good! Why?! Because there are thousands of people just like myself who are living witnesses of the goodness and change created in the programs! I graduated nearly 6 years ago, and I will forever stand as a witness against the false testimony of those who claim that the programs are abusive! Perhaps there have been those staff who have abused their power, and even crossed the line, but how many teachers and administrators in the public school system, or in the federal prison system of been guilty or equally or even more grievous crimes?! Perhaps we should then just shut down all of the schools in prisons in the world because of those employees who have crossed the line. Wake up and face the facts here people, every year hundreds of teens lives are saved, hundreds of families are restored, and hundreds of parents can sleep at night knowing that their children are safe. There are those of you, and you are certainly the minority that have claimed to have been seriously physically abused while in the program, if it true that pursue legal action, I have yet to seem many people try. You claim that the program is bullet proof because of contracts or such, while in reality the widespread abuse is just a work of fiction created by lying manipulating teenagers who were menaces before the program and now continue to be just that!
Proudgrad
SCL graduate 1999
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Is this part of your job there at WWASP to monitor these websites???? I laughed my whole way through your posting!!!
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while in reality the widespread abuse is just a work of fiction created by lying manipulating teenagers who were menaces before the program and now continue to be just that!
This sounds way too familiar! Where did I hear this before? Anyone? Anyone? Anyone want to take a guess?!!
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CCM you are spot on. Just another program troll. Sounds very familiar to me too, sounds suspiciously like a WWASP staff, who can't even hide their stupid wordings even when they try.
The funniest part about these all-too-typical 'get a life and stop bashing programs' rants is the hypocrisy.
You are tired of rants, so you decide to make one yourself? HAHA. Loser.
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lying manipulating teenagers who were menaces before the program and now continue to be just that!
:rofl:
Who the fuck refers to themselves and fellow 'students' this way?? Umm..... maybe staff? Get a life.
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On 2005-12-01 09:07:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Why don't you guys just get a life and fight for a real cause! You can sit on here and cry your eyes out each and everyday about how poorly you were treated in the program, and how the abused you, but it will do no good! Why?! Because there are thousands of people just like myself who are living witnesses of the goodness and change created in the programs! I graduated nearly 6 years ago, and I will forever stand as a witness against the false testimony of those who claim that the programs are abusive! Perhaps there have been those staff who have abused their power, and even crossed the line, but how many teachers and administrators in the public school system, or in the federal prison system of been guilty or equally or even more grievous crimes?! Perhaps we should then just shut down all of the schools in prisons in the world because of those employees who have crossed the line. Wake up and face the facts here people, every year hundreds of teens lives are saved, hundreds of families are restored, and hundreds of parents can sleep at night knowing that their children are safe. There are those of you, and you are certainly the minority that have claimed to have been seriously physically abused while in the program, if it true that pursue legal action, I have yet to seem many people try. You claim that the program is bullet proof because of contracts or such, while in reality the widespread abuse is just a work of fiction created by lying manipulating teenagers who were menaces before the program and now continue to be just that!
Proudgrad
SCL graduate 1999
"
Bullshit or brainwashed.
Do you know what those seminars are that they force you to complete?
They're brainwashing guru money scamming criminal false advertising cult/brainwashing training sessions. Ever hear of Werner Erhart (EST)? Do a little research to find out what really happened to you. :tup:
Werner Erhart/EST: http://skepdic.com/est.html (http://skepdic.com/est.html)
Lifespring/David Gilcrease:
http://www.pianofinders.com/es/breakingthesecrecy.htm (http://www.pianofinders.com/es/breakingthesecrecy.htm)
You know, if Mama Cass Elliot would have shared that damn sandwich
with Karen Carpenter, they would both still be alive today!!!!!!!
--chongo
_________________
EST (Lifespring) '83
Salesmanship Club '84-'86
Straight, Inc. '86-'88
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Excerpt: est adopted, in part, the Zen master approach, which was often abusive, profane, demeaning, and authoritarian. (One of my favorite Zen stories is of the master who asks his disciple a series of questions. No matter what the disciple answers, the master hits him with a stick. Even contradictory answers are met with the stick.) While many participants did not perceive the training as particularly abusive, some were not used to the discipline requested of them. Some have claimed that one typically abusive approach was the requirement of extraordinary bladder control in est training. Participants were advised not to leave the room, even to go to the toilet, during training.
Sound at all familiar?
A student burst into his office. "Professor Stigler, I don't believe I deserve this F you've given me." To which Stigler replied, "I agree, but unfortunately it is the lowest grade the University will allow me to award."
--Professor Stigler
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotional_abuse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotional_abuse)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_psychological_abuse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_psychological_abuse)
And: http://www.freedomofmind.com/resourcece ... s/BITE.htm (http://www.freedomofmind.com/resourcecenter/articles/BITE.htm) - those seminars sound just like a cult to me!
_________________
-- [email protected][ This Message was edited by: trnsz on 2005-12-01 11:32 ]
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Living witness, give us a name. And we'll check you out to see if you're really a student. If you want to be a "living witness" of "goodness and change", don't stay anonymous!
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"Wake up and face the facts here people, every year hundreds of teens lives are saved, hundreds of families are restored, and hundreds of parents can sleep at night knowing that their children are safe"
HA! Hundreds? Ummm, ok. I think you are absolutly crazy. I know where you are coming from because I was once a staunch program supporter as well and fiercly defended any anti program comments. I hope you stay on here, argue alot, look at the real facts, not your biased numbers you are pulling out of your ass, and eventually come to your senses.
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On 2005-12-01 09:07:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Why don't you guys just get a life and fight for a real cause! You can sit on here and cry your eyes out each and everyday about how poorly you were treated in the program, and how the abused you, but it will do no good! Why?! Because there are thousands of people just like myself who are living witnesses of the goodness and change created in the programs! I graduated nearly 6 years ago, and I will forever stand as a witness against the false testimony of those who claim that the programs are abusive! Perhaps there have been those staff who have abused their power, and even crossed the line, but how many teachers and administrators in the public school system, or in the federal prison system of been guilty or equally or even more grievous crimes?! Perhaps we should then just shut down all of the schools in prisons in the world because of those employees who have crossed the line. Wake up and face the facts here people, every year hundreds of teens lives are saved, hundreds of families are restored, and hundreds of parents can sleep at night knowing that their children are safe. There are those of you, and you are certainly the minority that have claimed to have been seriously physically abused while in the program, if it true that pursue legal action, I have yet to seem many people try. You claim that the program is bullet proof because of contracts or such, while in reality the widespread abuse is just a work of fiction created by lying manipulating teenagers who were menaces before the program and now continue to be just that!
Proudgrad
SCL graduate 1999
"
So, how much did they pay you to write this shit?
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So, how much did they pay you to write this shit?"
Whatever the current referral kickback is? =)
I find it impossible to believe anyone who actually did that crap can defend it.
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First off, let me say, it was hard to make it through that entire first post without laughing uncontrollably. What a fucking TOOL!
I will forever stand as a witness against the false testimony of those who claim that the programs are abusive!
LOL!!! You are fucking hilarious dude. Your testimony ain't worth shit man. You are probably the kid who willingly sucked the family father's cock nightly to get a few extra pieces of candy, you rimjob-giving, bitch-ass motherfucker, cum-eating program bastard! If I met up with you I'd love to give you some 'testimony' about how much I HATE WWASP and anyone who supports it too.
Perhaps we should then just shut down all of the schools in prisons in the world because of those employees who have crossed the line.
We?!?! Fuck you man, we will never be on the same side so none of this 'we' shit, okay? Nope... it's up to us, the ones who were greviously WRONGED to make it right. Nothing's up to you man, you already took it up the ass and WWASP collected your parents money. It's OVER for you. EVERYONE IS LAUGHING AT YOU... dickweed. :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Its amazing reading these posts. Someone writes in and says they were abused by a program and everyone rallies to support them, no questions asked. But a similar post comes thru with a person who was successful and where the program helped them, everyone is suspicious, name calling, must be a conspiracy, must be a counselor or a program person, I want names and addresses, tell me where you live, what program you attended etc. Why cant people get past their own experiences, pull up a chair and listen to others, it might help.
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pulling out of my bad, do the math and you'll realize that there are certaintly hundreds!
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Why cant people get past their own experiences, pull up a chair and listen to others, it might help.
Because most people don't start off their posts this way...
"Why don't you guys just get a life and fight for a real cause! You can sit on here and cry your eyes out each and everyday about how poorly you were treated in the program, and how the abused you, but it will do no good!
This sounds like a question to me, or even like a challenge, and deserves an answer- even if the post was obviously made to incite an argument- probably by a struggling troll. I've heard enough program bullshit over my lifetime, I can do without anymore. Thanks.
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On 2005-12-02 08:15:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Its amazing reading these posts. Someone writes in and says they were abused by a program and everyone rallies to support them, no questions asked. But a similar post comes thru with a person who was successful and where the program helped them, everyone is suspicious, name calling, must be a conspiracy, must be a counselor or a program person, I want names and addresses, tell me where you live, what program you attended etc. Why cant people get past their own experiences, pull up a chair and listen to others, it might help."
Ah yes, and don't forget the oh-so classy title of this thread: 'LOSERS!' Yes, what a great way for the original author to keep this discussion civil. Now run along and play with all the other program children if this forum bothers you, you will not be missed. :wave:
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On 2005-12-02 08:15:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Its amazing reading these posts. Someone writes in and says they were abused by a program and everyone rallies to support them, no questions asked. But a similar post comes thru with a person who was successful and where the program helped them, everyone is suspicious, name calling, must be a conspiracy, must be a counselor or a program person, I want names and addresses, tell me where you live, what program you attended etc. Why cant people get past their own experiences, pull up a chair and listen to others, it might help."
I'm guessing you don't spend that much time on here ANON? It's very obvious to me, and everybody else that the post was writen by an individual who works for WWASP. I admit that sometimes it's hard for those of us who went to a WWASP school to fathom how somebody could've been helped by that joke of a program........???? I guess it's possible? I don't believe it to be the majority though. You see, I actually was in one of these places. Lucky me, so anyway I know what I am talking about. I am 32 years old, so I have found myself to be the oldest woman on here from one of these programs (not surprising considering all the shit I went through). See, I was in Cross Creek in the very beggining before all these different levels, and group names like Discovery even existed. We were the guinney pigs, while they were still doing there fine tuning.I was close to Bob Lichfield, and unfortunately he during the time of our close relationship picked my brain to come up with the level/points off system. Which was what I had at Heritage School. I know the way this mans brain works. I also got to know Brent Facer very well too. So, you see I know for a fact they are driven purely by money. Have you seen all the pictures, and special investigations done by the media? How can you think that is okay? How the hell does something like that help anybody? Well, I guess it's different strokes, for different folks?!! :roll:
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It's probably just Annie in Dallas whoops I mean Karen from Mineapolis oh shit wait I mean Ottawa5 or whatever the fuck name she's posting on these days. Obviously she's having trouble keeping her ramblings straight...gonna keep it simple from now on and just talk shit anonymously in the hopes that no one will notice when she contradicts herself.
I too laughed my balls off reading that rant. But then again, everything Annie says makes me laugh my balls off.
DSS is coming for you Annie. You gotta feed your kids!! Can't just sit around talking shit on fornits all day!
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On 2005-12-02 08:15:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Its amazing reading these posts. Someone writes in and says they were abused by a program and everyone rallies to support them, no questions asked. But a similar post comes thru with a person who was successful and where the program helped them, everyone is suspicious, name calling, must be a conspiracy, must be a counselor or a program person, I want names and addresses, tell me where you live, what program you attended etc. Why cant people get past their own experiences, pull up a chair and listen to others, it might help."
I'll tell you why no one will pull up a chair and listen to this dumbshit. Because you don't get many listeners when you title the post LOSERS and then go on the offensive. In fact, for even suggesting that we should listen to this person, you're a dumbass too.
I don't have a problem listening to someone who shares a positive experience. If a hell hole like WWASPS was positive for them, so be it. I understand that a lot of kids came from shittier situations so WWASPS might seem like a the turning point and an overall positive experience. I'll listen to what they have to say, and offer my own insights.
I do have a problem with some self-righteous piece of shit telling us we're all fuck ups because WWASPS didn't remind us of the second coming. Big difference. You have to be one shallow son of a bitch to miss it.
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On 2005-12-02 08:15:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Its amazing reading these posts. Someone writes in and says they were abused by a program and everyone rallies to support them, no questions asked. But a similar post comes thru with a person who was successful and where the program helped them, everyone is suspicious, name calling, must be a conspiracy, must be a counselor or a program person, I want names and addresses, tell me where you live, what program you attended etc. Why cant people get past their own experiences, pull up a chair and listen to others, it might help."
A really great grad that calls people names to feel superior! Yeah, what a success! Just what the program teaches, verbal abuse is #1!!!You have rights atecedent to all earthly governments; rights that cannot be repealed or restrained by human laws; rights derived from the Great Legislator of the Universe.
John Adams
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On 2005-12-02 08:54:00, CCM girl 1989 wrote:
"
On 2005-12-02 08:15:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Its amazing reading these posts. Someone writes in and says they were abused by a program and everyone rallies to support them, no questions asked. But a similar post comes thru with a person who was successful and where the program helped them, everyone is suspicious, name calling, must be a conspiracy, must be a counselor or a program person, I want names and addresses, tell me where you live, what program you attended etc. Why cant people get past their own experiences, pull up a chair and listen to others, it might help."
I'm guessing you don't spend that much time on here ANON? It's very obvious to me, and everybody else that the post was writen by an individual who works for WWASP. I admit that sometimes it's hard for those of us who went to a WWASP school to fathom how somebody could've been helped by that joke of a program........???? I guess it's possible? I don't believe it to be the majority though. You see, I actually was in one of these places. Lucky me, so anyway I know what I am talking about. I am 32 years old, so I have found myself to be the oldest woman on here from one of these programs (not surprising considering all the shit I went through). See, I was in Cross Creek in the very beggining before all these different levels, and group names like Discovery even existed. We were the guinney pigs, while they were still doing there fine tuning.I was close to Bob Lichfield, and unfortunately he during the time of our close relationship picked my brain to come up with the level/points off system. Which was what I had at Heritage School. I know the way this mans brain works. I also got to know Brent Facer very well too. So, you see I know for a fact they are driven purely by money. Have you seen all the pictures, and special investigations done by the media? How can you think that is okay? How the hell does something like that help anybody? Well, I guess it's different strokes, for different folks?!! :roll: "
Yes I agree, anyone who would start a thread called "LOSERS" has to be an asshole or something less than honest. I take it back, I am putting my chair away, I wrote too quickly, thanks for making me step back a little and take another look "CCM Girl"
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On 2005-12-01 10:09:00, 001010 wrote:
"Excerpt: est adopted, in part, the Zen master approach, which was often abusive, profane, demeaning, and authoritarian. (One of my favorite Zen stories is of the master who asks his disciple a series of questions. No matter what the disciple answers, the master hits him with a stick. Even contradictory answers are met with the stick.) While many participants did not perceive the training as particularly abusive, some were not used to the discipline requested of them. Some have claimed that one typically abusive approach was the requirement of extraordinary bladder control in est training. Participants were advised not to leave the room, even to go to the toilet, during training.
Sound at all familiar?
"
http://www.premier-ed.com/seminars/ (http://www.premier-ed.com/seminars/)
Oh, My GOD! How aweful to make people look at themselves - i'd rather watch Dr. Phil than to look at myself....LOL!!
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On 2005-12-02 13:03:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-12-01 10:09:00, 001010 wrote:
"Excerpt: est adopted, in part, the Zen master approach, which was often abusive, profane, demeaning, and authoritarian. (One of my favorite Zen stories is of the master who asks his disciple a series of questions. No matter what the disciple answers, the master hits him with a stick. Even contradictory answers are met with the stick.) While many participants did not perceive the training as particularly abusive, some were not used to the discipline requested of them. Some have claimed that one typically abusive approach was the requirement of extraordinary bladder control in est training. Participants were advised not to leave the room, even to go to the toilet, during training.
Sound at all familiar?
"
http://www.premier-ed.com/seminars/ (http://www.premier-ed.com/seminars/)
Oh, My GOD! How aweful to make people look at themselves - i'd rather watch Dr. Phil than to look at myself....LOL!!
"
Oh, My GOD! How AWEFUL to ask you to answer the abuse accusations isntead of ignore them and post press releases from a company that provides seminars!
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"Yes I agree, anyone who would start a thread called "LOSERS" has to be an asshole or something less than honest. I take it back, I am putting my chair away, I wrote too quickly, thanks for making me step back a little and take another look "CCM Girl""
Ummm..........that wasn't me??? But, I agree 100% with what they said.
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Hey everyone it's me again, proudgrad, the originator of this wonderful post. No, I do not in anyway work for wwasp as many of you have implied. While it may have not been very nice of me to title the post losers I knew that it would surely get the reaction that it has received and I love to get you all riled up! It's so funny to come back on and read your responses and see the lack of values, dignity, and self respect that you all have. This is especially evident in your language, wow! Some of you seem to not be able to pass of a sentence without a four letter word, that's really too bad. One of the reasons that this forum is such a joke is because of the lack of professionalism that exists; you're all just a bunch of cry babies with nothing better to do then whine about how you were mistreated. As for some of you it's pretty pathetic that 15 years after being in a program you're still "damaged" by it, come on get over it, move on with life, that's what effective and successful human beings do regardless of their situations! Once again the program saved my life, and continues to save the lives of hundreds of teens every year. What more evidence could anyone ask for than results? Sorry guys those results are certainly not in favor of you lies of widespread abuse and mistreatment!
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On 2005-12-03 08:59:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Hey everyone it's me again, proudgrad, the originator of this wonderful post. No, I do not in anyway work for wwasp as many of you have implied. While it may have not been very nice of me to title the post losers I knew that it would surely get the reaction that it has received and I love to get you all riled up! It's so funny to come back on and read your responses and see the lack of values, dignity, and self respect that you all have. This is especially evident in your language, wow! Some of you seem to not be able to pass of a sentence without a four letter word, that's really too bad. One of the reasons that this forum is such a joke is because of the lack of professionalism that exists; you're all just a bunch of cry babies with nothing better to do then whine about how you were mistreated. As for some of you it's pretty pathetic that 15 years after being in a program you're still "damaged" by it, come on get over it, move on with life, that's what effective and successful human beings do regardless of their situations! Once again the program saved my life, and continues to save the lives of hundreds of teens every year. What more evidence could anyone ask for than results? Sorry guys those results are certainly not in favor of you lies of widespread abuse and mistreatment!"
haha. you crack me up proudgrad. (laughing at you, not with you) :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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On 2005-12-03 08:59:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Hey everyone it's me again, proudgrad, the originator of this wonderful post. No, I do not in anyway work for wwasp as many of you have implied. While it may have not been very nice of me to title the post losers I knew that it would surely get the reaction that it has received and I love to get you all riled up! It's so funny to come back on and read your responses and see the lack of values, dignity, and self respect that you all have. This is especially evident in your language, wow! Some of you seem to not be able to pass of a sentence without a four letter word, that's really too bad. One of the reasons that this forum is such a joke is because of the lack of professionalism that exists; you're all just a bunch of cry babies with nothing better to do then whine about how you were mistreated. As for some of you it's pretty pathetic that 15 years after being in a program you're still "damaged" by it, come on get over it, move on with life, that's what effective and successful human beings do regardless of their situations! Once again the program saved my life, and continues to save the lives of hundreds of teens every year. What more evidence could anyone ask for than results? Sorry guys those results are certainly not in favor of you lies of widespread abuse and mistreatment!"
Wow, you're so original. Seen this post a million times. Don't lie to yourself, you're not on here to get us riled up. You're on here cuz you're pathetic and don't have anything better to do. Chump.
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On 2005-12-03 08:59:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Hey everyone it's me again, proudgrad, the originator of this wonderful post. No, I do not in anyway work for wwasp as many of you have implied. While it may have not been very nice of me to title the post losers I knew that it would surely get the reaction that it has received and I love to get you all riled up! It's so funny to come back on and read your responses and see the lack of values, dignity, and self respect that you all have. This is especially evident in your language, wow! Some of you seem to not be able to pass of a sentence without a four letter word, that's really too bad. One of the reasons that this forum is such a joke is because of the lack of professionalism that exists; you're all just a bunch of cry babies with nothing better to do then whine about how you were mistreated. As for some of you it's pretty pathetic that 15 years after being in a program you're still "damaged" by it, come on get over it, move on with life, that's what effective and successful human beings do regardless of their situations! Once again the program saved my life, and continues to save the lives of hundreds of teens every year. What more evidence could anyone ask for than results? Sorry guys those results are certainly not in favor of you lies of widespread abuse and mistreatment!"
I have not been presented with any valid figures for the efficacy of these programs and so do not accept your assessment.
And, yes, we could ask for plenty more than simply 'results.' The ends does not justify the means.
I was never locked in 'program' so am not whining about mistreatment. I am simply baffled that people like you exist and am here out of curiosity. It angers me that there are people, like you, who are so controlling and entitled that you feel you have a right to kidnap and imprison people in an attempt to force them to see things in your own narrow minded way.
[ This Message was edited by: AtomicAnt on 2005-12-03 10:59 ]
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On 2005-12-03 08:59:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Hey everyone it's me again, proudgrad, the originator of this wonderful post. No, I do not in anyway work for wwasp as many of you have implied. While it may have not been very nice of me to title the post losers I knew that it would surely get the reaction that it has received and I love to get you all riled up! It's so funny to come back on and read your responses and see the lack of values, dignity, and self respect that you all have. This is especially evident in your language, wow! Some of you seem to not be able to pass of a sentence without a four letter word, that's really too bad. One of the reasons that this forum is such a joke is because of the lack of professionalism that exists; you're all just a bunch of cry babies with nothing better to do then whine about how you were mistreated. As for some of you it's pretty pathetic that 15 years after being in a program you're still "damaged" by it, come on get over it, move on with life, that's what effective and successful human beings do regardless of their situations! Once again the program saved my life, and continues to save the lives of hundreds of teens every year. What more evidence could anyone ask for than results? Sorry guys those results are certainly not in favor of you lies of widespread abuse and mistreatment!"
What a dope.
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Ok, here's one for you. I have NO affiliation with WWASP and never will. And I have even considered some of these claims seriously.
Yes, I agree. I see a lot of claims on here of abuse with little detail as to what the abuse was. I also see people decrying a system that in some ways, seems less harmful than the alternatives these teens were heading for.
So you tell me....WHAT DOES A PARENT DO when their child is on a destructive path??? WHAT???? Wait for them to be hauled off to jail? I'm sure they will get real special treatment there. Wait for them to drop out of school because they are failing every class? Wait for them to overdose on the drugs they are using to self-medicate? Let them abuse their families? Because THAT, my dear friend, is what happens every day in this country. EVERY DAMN DAY!
And I am ONE parent who is NOT going to let that happen to my son. I am exhausting every other alternative to an RTC, but if it comes to it, I will send him. And I'm giving him the choice by asking him to comply with simple things, like a reasonable curfew (for example, it is 3:00 a.m. here and he was supposed to be home at 10:00...do you think that is safe for a 14 year old?).
I don't abuse my child. I don't neglect him. But he abuses and neglects me. Do you have a solution to this. How about I just throw him out on the street and let him make his own decisions. Would that be a better solution? Or how about I keep letting him go in the direction he's going and when the school calls me for the umpteenth time to tell me he is suspended I just say, "gee whiz, I guess there's really nothing I can do except to just wait it out."
And don't, DON'T, shoot back a reply suggesting that I haven't tried everything, or that I don't love my child enough, or that I must be doing something wrong, because thank you, I already lie awake every night trying to figure out what I must be doing wrong.
I love my son, and I am going to get him help.
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Everyone is laughing at the guy who didn't feel the need to use profanity to convey his message?? Hmmmm. And what are you doing with your life?
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On 2005-12-04 00:08:00, famjaztique wrote:
"And don't, DON'T, shoot back a reply suggesting that I haven't tried everything, or that I don't love my child enough, or that I must be doing something wrong, because thank you, I already lie awake every night trying to figure out what I must be doing wrong.
I love my son, and I am going to get him help. "
How about not letting a 14 year-old out at night alone unsupervised? How in the world can you say you've "tried everything" and you're sitting on your computer at 3am while your kid is out UNSUPERVISED? Get a grip, lady. You haven't even covered the BASICS, much less done "everything."
The problem here is that you left out some words. You' done EVERYTHING THAT IS CONVENIENT FOR YOU. Try making a real effort. Go out with your kid to supervise. It ain't that deep.
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Yeah, ok brainiac. Try this. I DON'T let him out unsupervised. He was at a friend's house, I had spoken to the Mom. They wanted to have a sleepover. Then they took off. So by supervise, do you mean sit on him?
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How about this...let the child grow up. I am a parent and a "successful" grad of straight inc. I let my kid grow up and he is doing fine. Oh, here is another thought. Why don't you grow up and quit being a child.
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Oh, and for the record, I was sitting on my computer at 3 a.m. because I had spent hours in the car looking for him, hours on the phone trying to locate him. I couldn't sleep (! you know, because I'm a terrible parent who doesn't care) so I was on the computer looking for help. And then, maybe you missed this part of my posting, when I asked what does work with a kid who is being totally defiant, I get an intelligent and thoughtful answer from you. Brilliant!! Thank you so very much.
Yes, I do what is CONVENIENT for me as a parent. Like stay up all night worrying. Like taking time to talk to my son every day. Like cooking, cleaning, laundry and providing a roof over our heads and food our belly. Like exercising patience when my son is screaming. Like taking the time to find a therapist that he bonded with and then after months when he refused to go, going myself. Like calling the school every day for the last month to try to get them to evaluate my son for a learning disabilty. Like making sure that I hug my son every day at least once if not 10 times. Like programming all of his friends numbers into my cell phone so that when he doesn't come home from school I can start calling right away. Like giving up graduate school so that he can stay in the same town where his friends are. Like visiting the school and talking to everyone from his teachers to the principal and vice principal. Like missing class/work to attend appointments and court dates for him every week for the last year. This is not a complete list.
So maybe you think I messed up somewhere earlier on. Let's see, I was a stay at home Mom for 7 years because I loved taking care of my children. I thought they were bright and beautiiful and I wanted to provide them with every opportunity. So, could it have been that?
Let's face it. Not every troubled teen has an ogre for a parent. And in this case, if he does, it is his father.
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I love how you people just insult instead of offering advice. Why is that?
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On 2005-12-04 06:28:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Yeah, ok brainiac. Try this. I DON'T let him out unsupervised. He was at a friend's house, I had spoken to the Mom. They wanted to have a sleepover. Then they took off. So by supervise, do you mean sit on him?"
If need be, yes. Why is he at a sleepover if he can't be trusted? BAD JUDGEMENT, MOM.
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Ok, yes, you're right. My son's lying and manipulation and drug use, and abusive behavior towards me is all my fault. I will go out back and bury myself in the back yard right now for being such a shitty mother. Thank you for enlightening me. I'm so glad that now I know it has nothing to do with the long history of mental illness in the males on his father's side of the family, or a divorce, or that he was bullied in school and never told me about it.
And I should't let him go anywhere because he is untrustworthy. Gee, it sounds funny that someone who is saying strict programs are abusive is advocating me being that strict.
I don't know. It's become incredibly clear that all of your arguments lead back to the parents. It isn't any wonder some of your parents were desperate. You clearly never took any responsibility yourselves, and I feel sorry for you. I won't be posting here any longer because, frankly, it's ridiculous.
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On 2005-12-04 06:42:00, famjaztique wrote:
"I love how you people just insult instead of offering advice. Why is that?
"
If you want to do more harm than good to your son, by all means, send him to a WWASP program. I hope you realize what you are saying by playing devil's advocate in this thread. I don't think you do, because if you did, you wouldn't be saying it. To those of us who have been through WWASP gulag's, you mine as well state you are planning to shoot your son in the foot for his own good, because at least it will keep him at home and out of trouble. This is what you sound like to all of us. This is why we laugh, but not because it's funny, but, because it's SO sad for the future teens who must endure what we already have.
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You said in a previous post that your sons bad parent was his father. Hmm. perhaps then, the reason for his defiance is his feelings towards his dad. My step mom was abusive to me and my brother since I was age 3. I have been physically and mentally abused by her my whole life. My mother was a good mom, my step dad was a good dad, HOWEVER, because of the treatemnt I recieved from my step mom none of that mattered. I was horrible to my mom, even though I had no reason to be really. I think in retrospect, I was angry with her for not stopping the abuse. Perhaps the reason really isnt you, but sending him off to a WWASP program will not help, at least not for long. I was good and brainwashed by the program and I really was "well behaved" for a while, becuase I was so scared of ever making mistakes. But it was a short term solution that only worked short term. It would be intersting to hear your whole story, how your son grew up, what his father was like, etc etc. Sometimes without even meaning to or realizing it, inderectly you can mess your kid up. My parents divorce and remmarige set the course for depression and major anxiety for a long time. It was only after being de-programed that I really am a whole happy person now. I certainly still hate the program, I hate what they do to kids, what they did to me, and I feel I have every right to be. I still get angry with my parents for sending me there, considering the reason I was depressed and suicidal was becuase I had been abused by my step mom ( the very person who suggested a program to "fix" me) for so long. Anyway, I will stop rambling now. I just really hope you can think LOOOONG and hard before you see WWASP as your final solution. Because really it isnt a soultion, it will only make things worse. If you want a kid who will be able to think for himself, WWASP is not the answer.
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On 2005-12-04 07:48:00, famjaztique wrote:
"Ok, yes, you're right. My son's lying and manipulation and drug use, and abusive behavior towards me is all my fault. I will go out back and bury myself in the back yard right now for being such a shitty mother. Thank you for enlightening me. I'm so glad that now I know it has nothing to do with the long history of mental illness in the males on his father's side of the family, or a divorce, or that he was bullied in school and never told me about it.
And I should't let him go anywhere because he is untrustworthy. Gee, it sounds funny that someone who is saying strict programs are abusive is advocating me being that strict.
I don't know. It's become incredibly clear that all of your arguments lead back to the parents. It isn't any wonder some of your parents were desperate. You clearly never took any responsibility yourselves, and I feel sorry for you. I won't be posting here any longer because, frankly, it's ridiculous."
Good. Now you can't devote your time to neglecting your son's welfare full-time. What a LOSER.
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"Ok, yes, you're right. My son's lying and manipulation and drug use, and abusive behavior towards me is all my fault. I will go out back and bury myself in the back yard right now for being such a shitty mother. Thank you for enlightening me."
"I'm so glad that now I know it has nothing to do with the long history of mental illness in the males on his father's side of the family,"
AND A LOCKED FACILITY WHERE ABUSE OCCURS WILL HELP HIS MENTAL ILLNESS HOW????? IS HE MENTALLY ILL OR GUILTY BY DEFAULT BECAUSE OF HIS FATHER??
"or a divorce, "
LET ME SHED A TEAR FOR YOUR DIVORCE. I LET OUT A LITTLE "WAA" FOR YOUR VICTIM PITY PARTY WHILE IT SLID DOWN MY FACE. YOUR PHILOSOPHY MUST BE TO GET RID OF FAMILY WHEN THE GOING GETS TOUGH. A PROGRAM IS A GREAT WAY TO DIVORCE YOUR SON, WAY TO GO, MOM. HMMM, ANYBODY GOT A LINK TO THE POUND SO MOM CAN HAVE THEM ON SPEEDDIAL IN CASE THE DOG HAS AN ACCIDENT INSIDE?
or that he was bullied in school and never told me about it.
AND HOW WILL A LOCKED PROGRAM WHERE HE'LL BE BULLIED BY ADULTS ADDRESS THIS ISSUE?
YOU'RE PASSIVE AGGRESSIVE COMMENTS WOULD GRATE ON ANYONE. NO WONDER YOU'RE DIVORCED WITH A KID WHO HATES YOU.
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Your right about that one "no wonder your divorced and your kid hates you" :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Right the fuck on man!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Absolutely amazing -- this forum advocates against boarding schools and blames the parents for just sending their kids there without looking for altenatives and then a parents writes in for advice and what do you do !!!???? You offer nothing but ridicule and blame, this person was reaching out for help, she wasnt sending her kid away or restraining him as you advocate against. Is that all this forum can offer is anger and hatred, if you were sincere about helping you would offer up some advice from a teens perspective. As I read your responses what you are telling her is the only next step is to send him away, there is no hope, you already failed as a parent.
Just because one parent allowed their kid to "Just be a kid and do nothing" doesnt mean it works for everyone and all kids. Each situation is different.
Put your personal anger and failures aside and try to offer some constructive advice, the person is stopping into this forum asking for help, isnt this what you want at this site?
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great fucking point right there
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My son doesn't hate me. He still hugs me every day and won't go to bed without saying goodnight. And I'm divorced because my ex-husband started to become abusive. Finally, I have no intention of putting my son in a lock down where he will be abused. I was "looking into RTC's". I was INVESTIGATING it. I think you might have missed that somehow. I would never put him somewhere that would add to his anxiety and hurt. I was looking for something that would offer him structure that he couldn't manipulate his way out of. I am one parent. I can offer him all the structure I can provide but I can't be here every second of every day to follow him around.
But whatever, in the end, it doesn't matter what I say to some of you. I have, in fact, gotten some very sage advice from a few people on here who are able to see past their own anger. (Thank you.) I'm sure some parents just ship their kids off because they don't want to deal with them. That is not the case here and you are barking up the wrong tree.
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famjaztique, good luck and my prayers are with you babe...I know how you feel right now. Hold back the tears and STAY STRONG..
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"You said in a previous post that your sons bad parent was his father. Hmm. perhaps then, the reason for his defiance is his feelings towards his dad. My step mom was abusive to me and my brother since I was age 3. I have been physically and mentally abused by her my whole life. My mother was a good mom, my step dad was a good dad, HOWEVER, because of the treatemnt I recieved from my step mom none of that mattered. I was horrible to my mom, even though I had no reason to be really. I think in retrospect, I was angry with her for not stopping the abuse. Perhaps the reason really isnt you, but sending him off to a WWASP program will not help, at least not for long. I was good and brainwashed by the program and I really was "well behaved" for a while, becuase I was so scared of ever making mistakes. But it was a short term solution that only worked short term. It would be intersting to hear your whole story, how your son grew up, what his father was like, etc etc. Sometimes without even meaning to or realizing it, inderectly you can mess your kid up. My parents divorce and remmarige set the course for depression and major anxiety for a long time. It was only after being de-programed that I really am a whole happy person now. I certainly still hate the program, I hate what they do to kids, what they did to me, and I feel I have every right to be. I still get angry with my parents for sending me there, considering the reason I was depressed and suicidal was becuase I had been abused by my step mom ( the very person who suggested a program to "fix" me) for so long. Anyway, I will stop rambling now. I just really hope you can think LOOOONG and hard before you see WWASP as your final solution. Because really it isnt a soultion, it will only make things worse. If you want a kid who will be able to think for himself, WWASP is not the answer."
Thanks for your thoughtful response. I know that my son is in pain and I know that some of it is from his Dad. He's also a very sensitive kid who has turned to anger to protect himself. You have to understand, I'm looking for a nurturing but strict environment for him. He has become a master at manipulating. He's incredibly smart. In my gut, I feel that the best thing that could happen to him is that he was in a consistent environment where all the people working with him were in constant contact with one another. A small teacher to child ratio where he can't just slip through the cracks another day. When my child skips school, sometimes the school fails to call me. He has walked out of school three times. I can't be there with him in school and still provide for him. If I could, I would. I would walk him into school every day and sit right there alongside him and make sure he wrote down everything, and behaved, and be there to protect him if a teacher was bullying or another child was. Because the fact is, bullying happens in public schools too. There have been so many instances in fact that I am seeking an educational lawyer to protect my son's rights in the school setting.
Despite poster's conclusions, I am a parent who cares.
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I can tell you care, things WILL get better..You seem like a great mom, like my mom even..Stay tough, but keep loving!! :smile:
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Thank you for those of you that offered support or advice that was useful. My son came home at 10:00 tonight. I had been calling everyone and was about 10 minutes away from calling the police. It is COLD here!
When he came home, he knew he had really pushed things and he was willing to talk. We had a heart to heart and I gave him several choices. One of those choices was an RTC, Swift River Academy, but it is the last choice. He has one month to get in shape at school and to start taking more responsibility in his life. He said, on his own, that he loves his home and he doesn't really know why he is being so ungrateful or hateful. He apologized and hugged me. It could me more manipulation of course, but I hope not. That is why, however, I gave him the choices, and made it very clear I intend to act as is necessary should he not keep up with his end of the bargain.
We negotiated a curfew together and I stated what I expected of him and what he could expect from me in return.
So, keep your fingers crossed everyone. I'm sure there will be mistakes made, but hopefully they will be in the less harmful range. The saving grace is that we do still have a very strong bond and when the shit hits the proverbial fan, he knows he still has me at his back.
take care everyone.
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On 2005-12-04 21:26:00, famjaztique wrote:
"Thank you for those of you that offered support or advice that was useful. My son came home at 10:00 tonight. I had been calling everyone and was about 10 minutes away from calling the police. It is COLD here!
When he came home, he knew he had really pushed things and he was willing to talk. We had a heart to heart and I gave him several choices. One of those choices was an RTC, Swift River Academy, but it is the last choice. He has one month to get in shape at school and to start taking more responsibility in his life. He said, on his own, that he loves his home and he doesn't really know why he is being so ungrateful or hateful. He apologized and hugged me. It could me more manipulation of course, but I hope not. That is why, however, I gave him the choices, and made it very clear I intend to act as is necessary should he not keep up with his end of the bargain.
We negotiated a curfew together and I stated what I expected of him and what he could expect from me in return.
So, keep your fingers crossed everyone. I'm sure there will be mistakes made, but hopefully they will be in the less harmful range. The saving grace is that we do still have a very strong bond and when the shit hits the proverbial fan, he knows he still has me at his back.
take care everyone. "
It seems to me that we were able to help this parent. I have been gone all weekend, so I had to catch up all the posts. I was a little concerned a couple pages back, when she stated "this is going to be my last post". I'm pleased that she returned, and I am thrilled to hear that she was able to sit down with her son, and have that heart to heart. A lot of times I think parents get frusterated, and send their kids away, because they don't know how to communicate effectively with them. Once you have been given the tools for effective communicating, it's enjoyable to use them. You are able to become even closer with your kids then you maybe even imagined. Nobody is perfect, and if everyone was we'd never have to have parenting. Our Mom's would give birth, we'd hit the ground running, and start living on our own immediately.
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On 2005-12-04 21:26:00, famjaztique wrote:
"Thank you for those of you that offered support or advice that was useful. My son came home at 10:00 tonight. I had been calling everyone and was about 10 minutes away from calling the police. It is COLD here!
When he came home, he knew he had really pushed things and he was willing to talk. We had a heart to heart and I gave him several choices. One of those choices was an RTC, Swift River Academy, but it is the last choice. He has one month to get in shape at school and to start taking more responsibility in his life. He said, on his own, that he loves his home and he doesn't really know why he is being so ungrateful or hateful. He apologized and hugged me. It could me more manipulation of course, but I hope not. That is why, however, I gave him the choices, and made it very clear I intend to act as is necessary should he not keep up with his end of the bargain.
We negotiated a curfew together and I stated what I expected of him and what he could expect from me in return.
So, keep your fingers crossed everyone. I'm sure there will be mistakes made, but hopefully they will be in the less harmful range. The saving grace is that we do still have a very strong bond and when the shit hits the proverbial fan, he knows he still has me at his back.
take care everyone. "
Wow thats great, hang in there, stay strong. Its good that you let him know what his options are, it may help him to turn around quicker and open up something common to talk about. It also looks like you did your homework "Academy at Swift River" is one of the better schools, no fences, no abuse, visit when you want, involves the whole family and they work with each to define academic goals for each kid so when he comes home he can pick up where he left off.
Thanks for sharing your struggle, let us know how you both make out.
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Search WWF for ASR.
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I did just that and it sounds like Academy at Swift River is just as a bad as any other program. The accounts of the abuse is familiar and the people who are pro-Academy at Swift River say the same brainwashed things as other ex-program kids do.
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On 2005-12-05 12:14:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I did just that and it sounds like Academy at Swift River is just as a bad as any other program. The accounts of the abuse is familiar and the people who are pro-Academy at Swift River say the same brainwashed things as other ex-program kids do. "
(http://http://www.swp.ie/images/red-flag.gif)
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The reports of abuse are much fewer, and this school is actually within driving distance of my home. And also, give me some credit, I would make sure that our contract stated "no restraints" and no other stuff. I would be able to visit when I wanted, have contact with my son, and make sure that everything was ok with him.
The basic problem is, that when kids get on a destructive path, sometimes just talking doesn't help. This isn't the first heart to heart we've had. We've had many. And he has basically said each time that he would start cleaning up his act at school and not get into trouble. And then a month later we're right back where we started.
The difference THIS time is that I'm saying he has four options for school. Start doing better in his current school or I will homeschool or he can choose a smaller school. Option 4 is Swift River or another of three day schools in the area. I was very firm that without steady progress on his part, we would have to move to other options.
Anyway, I thank you all for your input and support with the exception of those who felt the need to just slam me. It wasn't mature or appropriate or helpful.
And for the record, those who are saying that jail would have been better than an RTC, for some I believe that is true. However, I think that you all should take a long hard look at the statistics of folks who are incarcerated.
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On 2005-12-05 13:03:00, famjaztique wrote:
"The reports of abuse are much fewer, and this school is actually within driving distance of my home. And also, give me some credit, I would make sure that our contract stated "no restraints" and no other stuff. I would be able to visit when I wanted, have contact with my son, and make sure that everything was ok with him.
"
Careful with this. It's easy to say this now, but there's a chance that they may not even accept your son if they are not allowed to restrain him. It doesn't happen nearly as much as people on these boards would make you believe, but kids go over the edge at these schools and for the safety of staff and fellow students alike, they must be restrained. You may know your son isn't capable of that, but they don't know that.
Visits will be limited as well. They will see it as unfair that your son is getting more visits than others, and do everything in their power to dissuade you from doing so. There have been cases where students have been expelled from these schools because their parents couldn't agree to things like this. Sorry, that's just how it is.
I understand your situation, I'm not trying to slam you, but I think as much investigating as you have done, you're still ignoring a few important things.
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On 2005-12-05 11:44:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
Search WWF for ASR."
Just spent about an hour reading posts from ASR on WWF, not bad. A few people report problems with a person named Rudy but he has left the program. I think your local high school student would slam his school more than I've seen here.
Looks like a place that may be a good fit if he is accepted. ASR will not accept all applicants, it is a good idea to speak with them first to get an idea if your son or daughter is a good fit for the program, (they dont use illegal restraints). They only accept kids who seem to be able to do the work to be successful. This should only be a last resort.
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On 2005-12-05 11:44:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
Search WWF for ASR."
Thanks for the suggestion, I searched "ASR" and then compared it to a search for "SEED" and then tried "Thayer" and a couple others (there is a lot going on here). What a difference, you were right. It seems really expensive, but only a couple of people complained out of hundreds of graduates. A few complained that their parents were spending their Inheritance.
I like the search function that you have here!
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Mom, I may not agree with all of your decisions, but just your continuous presence and willingness to hear us shows that you care. We all express our opinions to you differently, but I am very glad that you hung in there and listened despite being slammed a few times. It's hard to hear the message behind the attack sometimes, especially when you have no history with us. I guess this forum can really work for people. Although I'm anti-program, I understand that we do not live in a world of absolutes and hope you find the right choice for your family.
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To the mom in this thread:
Hope you never have to send your child away. It is the worst thing to imagine, except for letting that child go on with destructive self-defeating behaviors, in spite of trying every possible option at home, such as negotiated contracts, school changes, even going to live with other relatives.
But if the day should come when you need a boarding school, you could do worse than the Academy at Swift River.
I didn't have time to look all through this thread---are you aware that there is a book out called "What it takes to pull me through" about this school? I can't remember the name of the author but it's some guy who is an editor at US News and World Report who took a year off to be at that campus and write about it. I think his name is Dave Marcus.
It sounds like a functional, emotionally respectful place to me. You'll have to be the judge, the searcher of fact, the person to follow your instincts based on love.
I had a kid who had to be in an emotional growth school for a couple of years. I've never regretted it, neither has the child. Although we both will always wish that we had back that time together, that had to be sacrificed in the name of last resort.
Life isn't black and white as some,thought certainly not all, posters here like to portray.
Not all schools are awful, and by the same token no school can be salvation for everyone. As far as I can see any away-from-home school ought to be the last resort. Sometimes it comes to that.
Good luck, our children are our futures--if we really, really believe that, well it's hard not to be authentic about how we weigh our choices.
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Well, after our "heart to heart" last night, my son went to school today but then came home and I caught him in several lies. First, he asked if a friend could stay and I later found out the boy had run away from his foster care situation.
Because my son has a history of sneaking out I watch him carefully. Sure enough, 10 minutes ago I caught him sneaking out. My son had snitched my cell phone and after I got him back into the house I received no less than three phone calls on my cell in the next 15 minutes. All hang ups. My son said he was just going to 7/11 because there was nothing in the house to drink. I had just gone shopping. There was milk, juice, bottled water and even KoolAid for a treat.
So, this is what I'm dealing with. Lie after lie after lie. He apologized but wouldn't admit he was up to anything except getting a drink. What kid needs to make and receive phone calls in the wee hours of the morning on a Monday night to just go get a drink?
Just so you all understand I'm not looking for a place to send off my kid just because he's not getting straight A's or because it is "convenient" for me. No matter how much I supervise, or listen, or understand, or set boundaries, he keeps manipulating me and the situation to his own end. He is 14! Not to mention, through all of these things, he has been nothing but disrespectful to me instead of thankful.
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So shutup and send him away already. Just don't send him to WWASPS. That will just make things worse in the long run.
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Yes, I am aware of the book, but have not yet read it. I intend to in the near future. I did a little more investigating on their web site and I was concerned that not all of the teachers are certified in teaching and not all of the counselors had psych degrees. Whether or not I send my son there, I intend to ask them about that. It seems odd that a school charging that much money can't find professionals to work there.
They all had degrees but not necessarily in the field they are working in. On the other hand, there are many people with teaching or counseling degrees who have no business being in their said profession because a degree doesn't give you the talent to work with kids, nor the inherent love of kids that is needed to work with them. I lament every day that some of my son's teachers at public school are so clueless and so obviously detest the kids they teach. Yet no one is shutting down the public schools nor dares to take that institution on.
Another sleepless night. And I have exams coming up in the next couple of weeks.
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************"And for the record, those who are saying that jail would have been better than an RTC, for some I believe that is true. However, I think that you all should take a long hard look at the statistics of folks who are incarcerated."
For the record, data from RTC patients shows higher recidivism than jail, as well as long-lasting psychological problems. So, just for the record, your kid is better off in juvie than an RTC.
Do your research FIRST, then cite statistics...
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On 2005-12-06 06:24:00, Anonymous wrote:
"************"And for the record, those who are saying that jail would have been better than an RTC, for some I believe that is true. However, I think that you all should take a long hard look at the statistics of folks who are incarcerated."
For the record, data from RTC patients shows higher recidivism than jail, as well as long-lasting psychological problems. So, just for the record, your kid is better off in juvie than an RTC.
Do your research FIRST, then cite statistics..."
Not sure I believe you, I have been looking for supportive data from RTC's, Number Graduated, number returned, gone onto college etc. Could you tell me where you got your information?
Thanks
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On 2005-12-06 06:24:00, Anonymous wrote:
"************"And for the record, those who are saying that jail would have been better than an RTC, for some I believe that is true. However, I think that you all should take a long hard look at the statistics of folks who are incarcerated."
For the record, data from RTC patients shows higher recidivism than jail, as well as long-lasting psychological problems. So, just for the record, your kid is better off in juvie than an RTC.
Do your research FIRST, then cite statistics..."
Sorry -- Statistics prove overwhelmingly that "jail time" does not rehabilitate well at all. You dont want your child going to jail at almost any cost.
-
And you think jail doesn't cause long-lasting psychological damage? And if he ends up in juvie, they start with foster care and bumping him around, and bandaids, and labeling and rampant confusion and intimidation. My son was brought up on skateboarding charges....SKATEBOARDING and the PO we had to speak with was threatening to lock him up.
That's the juvenile justice system when you're just looking at skateboarding down a sidewalk and minding your own business.
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On 2005-12-05 22:30:00, famjaztique wrote:
"Well, after our "heart to heart" last night, my son went to school today but then came home and I caught him in several lies. First, he asked if a friend could stay and I later found out the boy had run away from his foster care situation.
Because my son has a history of sneaking out I watch him carefully. Sure enough, 10 minutes ago I caught him sneaking out. My son had snitched my cell phone and after I got him back into the house I received no less than three phone calls on my cell in the next 15 minutes. All hang ups. My son said he was just going to 7/11 because there was nothing in the house to drink. I had just gone shopping. There was milk, juice, bottled water and even KoolAid for a treat.
So, this is what I'm dealing with. Lie after lie after lie. He apologized but wouldn't admit he was up to anything except getting a drink. What kid needs to make and receive phone calls in the wee hours of the morning on a Monday night to just go get a drink?
Just so you all understand I'm not looking for a place to send off my kid just because he's not getting straight A's or because it is "convenient" for me. No matter how much I supervise, or listen, or understand, or set boundaries, he keeps manipulating me and the situation to his own end. He is 14! Not to mention, through all of these things, he has been nothing but disrespectful to me instead of thankful. "
Well, come on now, think about it.........your son has found someone he has a lot in common with. It's pretty normal when you are going through what he is, to hang out with someone that you feel won't judge you, someone you can talk to, someone who is going through very similar things. The thing that is worrisome, is if they enter in destructive behaivor together. I'm not sure if you live in the country, or in the city???? It makes a difference. You are going to be able to find trouble no matter where you live, however if you live in the city it's a lot easier. I don't know Mom....would it hurt your feelings if I told you, your probably not viewed as a very "cool" parent. I was able to have 1 1/2 years of normal high school life here in California, and us kids didn't mind hanging out at other kids houses whose parents provided us with fun things to do/lots of snacks (they usually were members of Cosco), and privacy. You need to do everything possible to keep him at home, and happy. You need to give him structure, but room to breathe. They might be sneaking out to 7-11 so they can talk, and be normal teenage boys. I would be sneaking out too if my Mom had one ear on my bedroom door. I'm not saying that's what you are doing for sure......but I wouldn't be surprised.
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And the numbers are still out on RTC's. Not enough studies.
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"I don't know Mom....would it hurt your feelings if I told you, your probably not viewed as a very "cool" parent. I was able to have 1 1/2 years of normal high school life here in California, and us kids didn't mind hanging out at other kids houses whose parents provided us with fun things to do/lots of snacks (they usually were members of Cosco), and privacy. You need to do everything possible to keep him at home, and happy. You need to give him structure, but room to breathe. They might be sneaking out to 7-11 so they can talk, and be normal teenage boys. I would be sneaking out too if my Mom had one ear on my bedroom door. I'm not saying that's what you are doing for sure......but I wouldn't be surprised."
I had to laugh at this. Yeah, last night I did have my ear pressed up against the door. That's not the Mom I used to be but since he has been getting in trouble and I kept finding out he was lying to me, I got more worried...which is bordering on paranoia now! LOL. It's not funny, but it is funny that you so tactfully put that part of it into perspective. Unfortunately, I have been a very trusting mom and that didn't seem to matter. He still lied and got in trouble.
But thank you for the reminder. Even now, when things look darkest, I have to find spaces to ease up and still give him that chance to do what is right...or even what's wrong and hope it doesn't land him in juvie. In the meantime, I'm concentrating on getting all my ducks in a row to get him homeschooled or into a smaller school as our next step before RTC.
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What the hell is RTC? Renton Technical College? Religious Technology Center? The Romberg Tiburon Center for Environmental Studies?
Is it the same as (or on the same lines of) ROTC? How could ROTC possibly be worse than jail? This kid, as nice of a kid as he sounds, would be a chump if he got thrown into juvy. I mean some kids get thrown into juvy and it makes them tougher and teaches them a little about respect. But some that are just too weak for that shit come out quivering little balls of shit.
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Okay, there are pro's and con's about RTC's VS. Juvi/Jail.
I'm really not sure how to say this without sounding like a snobbie beech, but here it goes.....I think if I had a choice of sending my kid to a knarley RTC, or having him in Juvi, I would definately put him in the RTC. I think you have more rights in Juvi then in some of these RTC's, but the type of kids you are in there with........yikes!!! Most of the kids will come from lower income families, and I don't mean families who live from paycheck to paycheck, I mean families who are in constant transition from shelters to streets, that are mostly on welfare. This is traumatic for kids. Also, I would be afraid that these other kids in Juvi would be picking on my kid because his family had money that theirs did not. It could get ugly, and he could get hurt.
I don't like either of these options personally. If I had a teenager, which I hope to someday............I'd provide them with the type of home that other kids felt comfortable hanging out in. I'd provide them with games/movies/and plenty of snacks from Cosco. I'd give them structure, but I would give them privacy, and space. I'd try not to be judgemental, I'd try to be understanding of what they are going through. It's tough being that age. It really is. I want my kids to like me. I want them to feel comfortable around me. I want them to be able to open up to me.
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Oh BTW, I would try my hardest to find the least abusive RTC, which would mean no WWASP facilities! (RTC means Residential Treatment Center!
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Why send them to a 'facility' at all? Unless they are being sent to a psychiatric hospital with trained staff, what's the point other than paying someone to babysit your kid away from your home and away from temptation? If that is the goal, why not send them to study abroad for a semester? Or how about a volunteer vacation of some sort, building houses in Africa, helping Guetamalan orphan's read English, whatever. I think more out of the box solutions are needed. I think the kid's age and behavior show us usually they want independence, challenges and something new. You can't treat a teen like a baby until they reach 18 like WWASP does. If I was spending that kind of cash, I'd find a GREAT volunteer situation, or something like that. But most importantly, something the teen agrees on. With the amount of money these program's cost, this would be a ready option. And shit, this might actually HELP your teen in the future instead of putting them farther and farther behind their peers when it comes to culture, knowledge and wisdom.
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On 2005-12-06 07:45:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-12-06 06:24:00, Anonymous wrote:
"************"And for the record, those who are saying that jail would have been better than an RTC, for some I believe that is true. However, I think that you all should take a long hard look at the statistics of folks who are incarcerated."
For the record, data from RTC patients shows higher recidivism than jail, as well as long-lasting psychological problems. So, just for the record, your kid is better off in juvie than an RTC.
Do your research FIRST, then cite statistics..."
Not sure I believe you, I have been looking for supportive data from RTC's, Number Graduated, number returned, gone onto college etc. Could you tell me where you got your information?
Thanks
"
What you're seeing isn't "data." That's the problem. Your "data" is survey statistics released by programs. That's hardly any kind of study. It's an opinion poll given to a choice sample hand picked by the institution. That's how thet arrive at numbers like "98% Success Rate!"
I challenge you to cite one SINGLE longitudinal scientific study of RTC populations. I'd like to see a real, unbiased study that supports "programs."
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I love that idea but I don't have the money. I am trying to get the school district to pay for an RTC and that's a fight in itself. Trying to get them to pay for him to study abroad is a no go.
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Send them abroad for a semester? Brilliant. So he can get fucked up with his buddies in Madrid and end up in Spanish jail.
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On 2005-12-06 09:36:00, famjaztique wrote:
"I love that idea but I don't have the money. I am trying to get the school district to pay for an RTC and that's a fight in itself. Trying to get them to pay for him to study abroad is a no go.
"
Concerns about residential care primarily relate to criteria for admission; inconsistency of community-based treatment established in the 1980s; the costliness of such services (Friedman & Street, 1985); the risks of treatment, including failure to learn behavior needed in the community; the possibility of trauma associated with the separation from the family; difficulty reentering the family or even abandonment by the family; victimization by RTC staff; and learning of antisocial or bizarre behavior from intensive exposure to other disturbed children (Barker, 1998). These concerns are discussed below.
In the past, admission to an RTC has been justified on the basis of community protection, child protection, and benefits of residential treatment per se (Barker, 1982). However, none of these justifications have stood up to research scrutiny. In particular, youth who display seriously violent and aggressive behavior do not appear to improve in such settings, according to limited evidence (Joshi & Rosenberg, 1997).
http://www.enterthefreudianslip.com/sur ... ential.htm (http://www.enterthefreudianslip.com/surgeon_general_mental_health_ch3_treatment_interventions_residential.htm)
_________________________________________________
Ok, I'm ready. Show me your "positive research" on RTC's. I hope it's some real research and not just more pro-program bias that ruins so many people's credibility in these discussions...
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On 2005-12-06 06:24:00, Anonymous wrote:
"************"And for the record, those who are saying that jail would have been better than an RTC, for some I believe that is true. However, I think that you all should take a long hard look at the statistics of folks who are incarcerated."
For the record, data from RTC patients shows higher recidivism than jail, as well as long-lasting psychological problems. So, just for the record, your kid is better off in juvie than an RTC.
Do your research FIRST, then cite statistics..."
What you're seeing isn't "data." That's the problem. Your "data" is survey statistics released by programs. That's hardly any kind of study. It's an opinion poll given to a choice sample hand picked by the institution. That's how thet arrive at numbers like "98% Success Rate!"
I challenge you to cite one SINGLE longitudinal scientific study of RTC populations. I'd like to see a real, unbiased study that supports "programs."
-
On 2005-12-06 09:41:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-12-06 09:36:00, famjaztique wrote:
"I love that idea but I don't have the money. I am trying to get the school district to pay for an RTC and that's a fight in itself. Trying to get them to pay for him to study abroad is a no go.
"
Concerns about residential care primarily relate to criteria for admission; inconsistency of community-based treatment established in the 1980s; the costliness of such services (Friedman & Street, 1985); the risks of treatment, including failure to learn behavior needed in the community; the possibility of trauma associated with the separation from the family; difficulty reentering the family or even abandonment by the family; victimization by RTC staff; and learning of antisocial or bizarre behavior from intensive exposure to other disturbed children (Barker, 1998). These concerns are discussed below.
In the past, admission to an RTC has been justified on the basis of community protection, child protection, and benefits of residential treatment per se (Barker, 1982). However, none of these justifications have stood up to research scrutiny. In particular, youth who display seriously violent and aggressive behavior do not appear to improve in such settings, according to limited evidence (Joshi & Rosenberg, 1997).
http://www.enterthefreudianslip.com/sur ... ential.htm (http://www.enterthefreudianslip.com/surgeon_general_mental_health_ch3_treatment_interventions_residential.htm)
_________________________________________________
Ok, I'm ready. Show me your "positive research" on RTC's. I hope it's some real research and not just more pro-program bias that ruins so many people's credibility in these discussions...
"
What you sited here are data from Treatment centers for children with "severe mental disorders". I dont think the majority of the people here are dealing wiht kids at that level. The kids you speak of are under the custody of the state for mental disorders.
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On 2005-12-06 09:37:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Send them abroad for a semester? Brilliant. So he can get fucked up with his buddies in Madrid and end up in Spanish jail. "
If you have or ever have kids, I pity them. :cry:
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On 2005-12-06 09:41:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-12-06 09:36:00, famjaztique wrote:
"I love that idea but I don't have the money. I am trying to get the school district to pay for an RTC and that's a fight in itself. Trying to get them to pay for him to study abroad is a no go.
"
Concerns about residential care primarily relate to criteria for admission; inconsistency of community-based treatment established in the 1980s; the costliness of such services (Friedman & Street, 1985); the risks of treatment, including failure to learn behavior needed in the community; the possibility of trauma associated with the separation from the family; difficulty reentering the family or even abandonment by the family; victimization by RTC staff; and learning of antisocial or bizarre behavior from intensive exposure to other disturbed children (Barker, 1998). These concerns are discussed below.
In the past, admission to an RTC has been justified on the basis of community protection, child protection, and benefits of residential treatment per se (Barker, 1982). However, none of these justifications have stood up to research scrutiny. In particular, youth who display seriously violent and aggressive behavior do not appear to improve in such settings, according to limited evidence (Joshi & Rosenberg, 1997).
http://www.enterthefreudianslip.com/sur ... ential.htm (http://www.enterthefreudianslip.com/surgeon_general_mental_health_ch3_treatment_interventions_residential.htm)
_________________________________________________
Ok, I'm ready. Show me your "positive research" on RTC's. I hope it's some real research and not just more pro-program bias that ruins so many people's credibility in these discussions...
"
Yes, I read that long ago. It really doesnt apply to the facilities we are talking about here. I can give you a link to someone who spent a few years at an RTC in Massachusetts interviewing and living with the kids thru their journey from beginning to end. It is a fascinating study on the treatment centers strengths and weaknesses.
Its a good read for those who are interested in a journalists point of view.
http://www.davemarcus.com/ (http://www.davemarcus.com/)
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WWASP is not an RTC, they will tell you this. They are a 'behavior modification' facility. They can't advertise they are treatment (RTC) but for some reason parents still think they will receive treatment. (or don't care???)
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On 2005-12-06 09:18:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Why send them to a 'facility' at all? Unless they are being sent to a psychiatric hospital with trained staff, what's the point other than paying someone to babysit your kid away from your home and away from temptation? If that is the goal, why not send them to study abroad for a semester? Or how about a volunteer vacation of some sort, building houses in Africa, helping Guetamalan orphan's read English, whatever. I think more out of the box solutions are needed. I think the kid's age and behavior show us usually they want independence, challenges and something new. You can't treat a teen like a baby until they reach 18 like WWASP does. If I was spending that kind of cash, I'd find a GREAT volunteer situation, or something like that. But most importantly, something the teen agrees on. With the amount of money these program's cost, this would be a ready option. And shit, this might actually HELP your teen in the future instead of putting them farther and farther behind their peers when it comes to culture, knowledge and wisdom. "
I agree, that is why the RTC is a last resort. I checked into other programs like outreach and building houses in Africa,teaching orphans how to read. But most of the programs want letters from the school they are attending (teachers) stating the child is a student in "good standing", is independent and capable of self study during his time abroad etc. Most of the kids who are entering RTC are not doing well academically and dont function well independently. They typically benefit from more structure vs less (which is what most of the overseas programs have)
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I don't agree on sending your child abroad for a semester. Not smart. I think whatever facility is chosen for him, needs to be close to home. That's if it needs to happen at all!!!! I think in only extreme cases that it does. A lot of parents overreact, they just need to relax a little, and let teenagers be teenagers. Just go get yourselves a great therapist, and work it out! We can only do so much here, but we always want to be here for those of you parents who are looking for insight on what these programs are actually like, because we have experienced them first hand. Also, there are a lot of you parents out there who had there kids sent to WWASP facilities, or others like them, and can offer insight about your experiences. We don't offer any kind of incentives here, we just do it out of the goodness in our hearts, because WE CARE!!!! :smile:
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On 2005-12-06 10:24:00, Anonymous wrote:
"WWASP is not an RTC, they will tell you this. They are a 'behavior modification' facility. They can't advertise they are treatment (RTC) but for some reason parents still think they will receive treatment. (or don't care???)"
Sure, but parents dont need to choose WWASP, there are plenty of others to choose from depending on their childs needs.
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Ok, so I get it. RTC's are evil. And they don't work, especially for violent or aggressive kids. It would be really great if there was something that DID work.
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Also, I know that none of you can give me a magic solution. This, in a round about way, is what is getting me through the days right now. This is what parents do when they love their children. They keep looking for solutions. My son's case is getting to the point of extreme. And I'm trying to weigh very carefully what the next steps are.
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On 2005-12-06 10:56:00, famjaztique wrote:
"Ok, so I get it. RTC's are evil. And they don't work, especially for violent or aggressive kids. It would be really great if there was something that DID work. "
Why do you think your son is acting out? Do you see any reason why he might be? Go ahead and tell us, it's not like we know you personally. The great thing about here, is you can air your dirty laundry, and stay somewhat anonymous. It's not like if you start talking to other Mom's in your area, they will start to judge you, they will gossip about you. They will not let their kids hang out with yours because they will be afraid of his bad behaivor rubbing off on them, and can you blame them?!! I want to hear your top 3 reasons why you think your son is behaiving the way he is.
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Ok, I thought I had explained in an earlier post but maybe it was a different thread.
My son, we'll call him John, has been acting out in several ways, and for some time now. First, he hates school. Well, who doesn't? Except his way of hating school is refusing to go (he started school refusal in sixth grade and the school filed a truancy complaint against him which put us with a probation officer for two years), or walking out. When anyone tries to tell him that he needs to do his work or go to school or behave or stop talking or whatever he will sometimes "go off" on them. Going off includes outrageous profanity, I mean the worst of the worst along with very direct insults, and sometimes threats. He has failed every core course in school every year that he has been in middle school.
By the end of sixth grade he was such a mess that I pulled him and homeschooled him. I had talked with his teachers, his guidance counselor, the principal and vice-principal on numerous occasions. I asked the teachers to help, they declined saying that didn't have extra time. The guidance counselor suggested therapy...we did that and still are.
During sixth grade he would also break curfew by several hours and was already experimenting with pot. He was 12.
I homeschooled him and everything calmed right down. He stopped giving me a hard time. He was respectful, and not because I demanded it, because he just was. We rarely had arguments. He enjoyed several of the things he was doing and picked up boxing and bass guitar. I was so happy to have him "back". He wasn't perfect and I don't expect him to be. But he smiled and laughed and seemed to be enjoying his life again.
But he did miss his school friends so I agreed that he could go back to "regular" school. As soon as school started he was suspended three times in a row. Once for coming to school under the influence of speed (that is the only instance I know of of him doing speed), another for "threatening" a teacher, and another for throwing milk in the cafeteria. None of these by themselves are earth shattering. Even the threat which was said to a smug teacher who enjoying Zach being in trouble so he said, "wipe that smile off your face before I smack it off." I spoke to the vice principal who was the disciplinarian and was also someone who seemed to understand him and she worked out a deal with him that if he was feeling angry he could come sit outside her office and he didn't have to ask anyone to do it. She wouldn't talk to him unless he wanted to talk. This worked well and his behavioral problems decreased, but no one dared "make" him do his work at school and he was constantly lying about his homework to me.
At that point I started asking for an IEP eval and it wasn't until this year that they complied and came back with a diagnosis of "depressed and angry". This year, in the beginning of the year he started getting suspended right away again and in the first quarter was suspended FOUR times. He walked out of school twice and was in the office more often than in the classroom. He is not allowed to go to his science class anymore for being so disruptive and disrespectful.
As the pressures at school mount he gets increasingly irritable at home and avoids home as much as possible because he doesn't want to deal with homework. He breaks curfew almost every day. If I ground him, he waits until I have to leave to be at work or class and then leaves. I've tried adjusting his curfew. I've tried coming to an agreement with him about what is reasonable. I have taken away TV, computer, etc. All that does is give him more incentive to be elsewhere.
When he's angry at me, and usually what he's angry about is that I've asked him to do his homework, or go to school, he flies into rages where he, again, uses the worst profanity and sometimes breaks things or walks up to me in a threatening manner. He has said he wishes I would die, go get raped, or other equally hurtful awful things.
He is in therapy regularly. I am on a long wait list for a Neuropsych evaluation, we tried one anti-depressant that made him more aggressive so now he's scared to try anymore and I finallly have an IEP in hand for him but I'm not sure the school can handle him even with the IEP. He lies and manipulates on a minute by minute basis. I also sat him down and gave him other choices for school, including homeschooling again. Instead he is just skipping school and refusing to go.
And he only gets more defiant if you tell him that going to school or doing his homework is non-negotiable. I've also tried a reward system and that didn't work either.
Today, I had to report him as a missing person. He walked out of the house and refused to discuss where he was going. I told him it wasn't ok for him to leave right then because he hadn't been to school and it was still during school hours and he stated that he didn't care. He wanted to live his life "his" way. He didn't care about school or anything else for that matter. And I knew that he had been helping a kid who had run away.
And here's an example of his temper. This happened a couple of weeks ago. We were on the interstate and stopped at a rest stop for a bathroom break. We had our cat with us because we had been away and she couldn't be left alone in the car. So I went in with my daughter first and then John went in. He was in there for two minutes when I saw him running out. Right behind him was the guy who runs the small rest stop and he was yelling. I jumped out of the car and stopped them and asked what was going on. The guy said that he was upset because my son had used a bathroom that had an "out of order" sign. When he reprimanded my son, John got angry and swore at him and then on his way out threw a large cigarette ash container over.
Now I think the guy was being a prick about the initial situation, and sometimes adults are jerks. They could say the same thing without all the attitude and power struggle. But the fact is, it's not ok for my son to react so violently every time someone is a little bit of a jerk to him. His therapist says he misperceives the level of infraction and then stores it and adds to it the next time someone "bugs" him.
He justifies his behavior by saying that "so and so" pissed him off. When he calls me names, he justifies it by saying that I made him angry.
So there's just a sampling.
-
On 2005-12-06 11:44:00, famjaztique wrote:
"Ok, I thought I had explained in an earlier post but maybe it was a different thread.
My son, we'll call him John, has been acting out in several ways, and for some time now. First, he hates school. Well, who doesn't? Except his way of hating school is refusing to go (he started school refusal in sixth grade and the school filed a truancy complaint against him which put us with a probation officer for two years), or walking out. When anyone tries to tell him that he needs to do his work or go to school or behave or stop talking or whatever he will sometimes "go off" on them. Going off includes outrageous profanity, I mean the worst of the worst along with very direct insults, and sometimes threats. He has failed every core course in school every year that he has been in middle school.
By the end of sixth grade he was such a mess that I pulled him and homeschooled him. I had talked with his teachers, his guidance counselor, the principal and vice-principal on numerous occasions. I asked the teachers to help, they declined saying that didn't have extra time. The guidance counselor suggested therapy...we did that and still are.
During sixth grade he would also break curfew by several hours and was already experimenting with pot. He was 12.
I homeschooled him and everything calmed right down. He stopped giving me a hard time. He was respectful, and not because I demanded it, because he just was. We rarely had arguments. He enjoyed several of the things he was doing and picked up boxing and bass guitar. I was so happy to have him "back". He wasn't perfect and I don't expect him to be. But he smiled and laughed and seemed to be enjoying his life again.
But he did miss his school friends so I agreed that he could go back to "regular" school. As soon as school started he was suspended three times in a row. Once for coming to school under the influence of speed (that is the only instance I know of of him doing speed), another for "threatening" a teacher, and another for throwing milk in the cafeteria. None of these by themselves are earth shattering. Even the threat which was said to a smug teacher who enjoying Zach being in trouble so he said, "wipe that smile off your face before I smack it off." I spoke to the vice principal who was the disciplinarian and was also someone who seemed to understand him and she worked out a deal with him that if he was feeling angry he could come sit outside her office and he didn't have to ask anyone to do it. She wouldn't talk to him unless he wanted to talk. This worked well and his behavioral problems decreased, but no one dared "make" him do his work at school and he was constantly lying about his homework to me.
At that point I started asking for an IEP eval and it wasn't until this year that they complied and came back with a diagnosis of "depressed and angry". This year, in the beginning of the year he started getting suspended right away again and in the first quarter was suspended FOUR times. He walked out of school twice and was in the office more often than in the classroom. He is not allowed to go to his science class anymore for being so disruptive and disrespectful.
As the pressures at school mount he gets increasingly irritable at home and avoids home as much as possible because he doesn't want to deal with homework. He breaks curfew almost every day. If I ground him, he waits until I have to leave to be at work or class and then leaves. I've tried adjusting his curfew. I've tried coming to an agreement with him about what is reasonable. I have taken away TV, computer, etc. All that does is give him more incentive to be elsewhere.
When he's angry at me, and usually what he's angry about is that I've asked him to do his homework, or go to school, he flies into rages where he, again, uses the worst profanity and sometimes breaks things or walks up to me in a threatening manner. He has said he wishes I would die, go get raped, or other equally hurtful awful things.
He is in therapy regularly. I am on a long wait list for a Neuropsych evaluation, we tried one anti-depressant that made him more aggressive so now he's scared to try anymore and I finallly have an IEP in hand for him but I'm not sure the school can handle him even with the IEP. He lies and manipulates on a minute by minute basis. I also sat him down and gave him other choices for school, including homeschooling again. Instead he is just skipping school and refusing to go.
And he only gets more defiant if you tell him that going to school or doing his homework is non-negotiable. I've also tried a reward system and that didn't work either.
Today, I had to report him as a missing person. He walked out of the house and refused to discuss where he was going. I told him it wasn't ok for him to leave right then because he hadn't been to school and it was still during school hours and he stated that he didn't care. He wanted to live his life "his" way. He didn't care about school or anything else for that matter. And I knew that he had been helping a kid who had run away.
And here's an example of his temper. This happened a couple of weeks ago. We were on the interstate and stopped at a rest stop for a bathroom break. We had our cat with us because we had been away and she couldn't be left alone in the car. So I went in with my daughter first and then John went in. He was in there for two minutes when I saw him running out. Right behind him was the guy who runs the small rest stop and he was yelling. I jumped out of the car and stopped them and asked what was going on. The guy said that he was upset because my son had used a bathroom that had an "out of order" sign. When he reprimanded my son, John got angry and swore at him and then on his way out threw a large cigarette ash container over.
Now I think the guy was being a prick about the initial situation, and sometimes adults are jerks. They could say the same thing without all the attitude and power struggle. But the fact is, it's not ok for my son to react so violently every time someone is a little bit of a jerk to him. His therapist says he misperceives the level of infraction and then stores it and adds to it the next time someone "bugs" him.
He justifies his behavior by saying that "so and so" pissed him off. When he calls me names, he justifies it by saying that I made him angry.
So there's just a sampling.
"
Maybe I was in a different thread, but I told YOU I wanted to hear the TOP 3 REASONS why you think YOUR SON is behaiving the way he is!!!!
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Top 3 reasons I think...
Well, part of the whole reason I'm posting here is because I'm in process of trying to figure that out. But if I had to make my own guesses I would say that he is upset that his father isn't around or involved and has essentially ruined his own life. Another part is that he was a smaller boy and more sensitive so got picked on a lot and then adopted a tough guy attitude to make up for it. Another part is probably genetic. I have since uncovered a long history of male anger on my mother's side and his father's father's sides of the family. Part of it may be a learning disability that hasn't been uncovered yet that has made him feel unsuccessful and got him labeled as a behavior problem that he is now living up to.
I think a very very large part of his anger toward school has to do with his 5th grade teacher who singled him out despite my multiple visits and complaints.
Also, for my own part, I think I didn't react soon enough!! I'm not an overreactive parent so when he started having trouble I figured he was just going through a difficult time and I got him therapy and listened to him and talked with him, thinking with support he would outgrow it.
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On 2005-12-06 12:01:00, CCM girl 1989 wrote:
"
On 2005-12-06 11:44:00, famjaztique wrote:
"Ok, I thought I had explained in an earlier post but maybe it was a different thread.
My son, we'll call him John, has been acting out in several ways, and for some time now. First, he hates school. Well, who doesn't? Except his way of hating school is refusing to go (he started school refusal in sixth grade and the school filed a truancy complaint against him which put us with a probation officer for two years), or walking out. When anyone tries to tell him that he needs to do his work or go to school or behave or stop talking or whatever he will sometimes "go off" on them. Going off includes outrageous profanity, I mean the worst of the worst along with very direct insults, and sometimes threats. He has failed every core course in school every year that he has been in middle school.
By the end of sixth grade he was such a mess that I pulled him and homeschooled him. I had talked with his teachers, his guidance counselor, the principal and vice-principal on numerous occasions. I asked the teachers to help, they declined saying that didn't have extra time. The guidance counselor suggested therapy...we did that and still are.
During sixth grade he would also break curfew by several hours and was already experimenting with pot. He was 12.
I homeschooled him and everything calmed right down. He stopped giving me a hard time. He was respectful, and not because I demanded it, because he just was. We rarely had arguments. He enjoyed several of the things he was doing and picked up boxing and bass guitar. I was so happy to have him "back". He wasn't perfect and I don't expect him to be. But he smiled and laughed and seemed to be enjoying his life again.
But he did miss his school friends so I agreed that he could go back to "regular" school. As soon as school started he was suspended three times in a row. Once for coming to school under the influence of speed (that is the only instance I know of of him doing speed), another for "threatening" a teacher, and another for throwing milk in the cafeteria. None of these by themselves are earth shattering. Even the threat which was said to a smug teacher who enjoying Zach being in trouble so he said, "wipe that smile off your face before I smack it off." I spoke to the vice principal who was the disciplinarian and was also someone who seemed to understand him and she worked out a deal with him that if he was feeling angry he could come sit outside her office and he didn't have to ask anyone to do it. She wouldn't talk to him unless he wanted to talk. This worked well and his behavioral problems decreased, but no one dared "make" him do his work at school and he was constantly lying about his homework to me.
At that point I started asking for an IEP eval and it wasn't until this year that they complied and came back with a diagnosis of "depressed and angry". This year, in the beginning of the year he started getting suspended right away again and in the first quarter was suspended FOUR times. He walked out of school twice and was in the office more often than in the classroom. He is not allowed to go to his science class anymore for being so disruptive and disrespectful.
As the pressures at school mount he gets increasingly irritable at home and avoids home as much as possible because he doesn't want to deal with homework. He breaks curfew almost every day. If I ground him, he waits until I have to leave to be at work or class and then leaves. I've tried adjusting his curfew. I've tried coming to an agreement with him about what is reasonable. I have taken away TV, computer, etc. All that does is give him more incentive to be elsewhere.
When he's angry at me, and usually what he's angry about is that I've asked him to do his homework, or go to school, he flies into rages where he, again, uses the worst profanity and sometimes breaks things or walks up to me in a threatening manner. He has said he wishes I would die, go get raped, or other equally hurtful awful things.
He is in therapy regularly. I am on a long wait list for a Neuropsych evaluation, we tried one anti-depressant that made him more aggressive so now he's scared to try anymore and I finallly have an IEP in hand for him but I'm not sure the school can handle him even with the IEP. He lies and manipulates on a minute by minute basis. I also sat him down and gave him other choices for school, including homeschooling again. Instead he is just skipping school and refusing to go.
And he only gets more defiant if you tell him that going to school or doing his homework is non-negotiable. I've also tried a reward system and that didn't work either.
Today, I had to report him as a missing person. He walked out of the house and refused to discuss where he was going. I told him it wasn't ok for him to leave right then because he hadn't been to school and it was still during school hours and he stated that he didn't care. He wanted to live his life "his" way. He didn't care about school or anything else for that matter. And I knew that he had been helping a kid who had run away.
And here's an example of his temper. This happened a couple of weeks ago. We were on the interstate and stopped at a rest stop for a bathroom break. We had our cat with us because we had been away and she couldn't be left alone in the car. So I went in with my daughter first and then John went in. He was in there for two minutes when I saw him running out. Right behind him was the guy who runs the small rest stop and he was yelling. I jumped out of the car and stopped them and asked what was going on. The guy said that he was upset because my son had used a bathroom that had an "out of order" sign. When he reprimanded my son, John got angry and swore at him and then on his way out threw a large cigarette ash container over.
Now I think the guy was being a prick about the initial situation, and sometimes adults are jerks. They could say the same thing without all the attitude and power struggle. But the fact is, it's not ok for my son to react so violently every time someone is a little bit of a jerk to him. His therapist says he misperceives the level of infraction and then stores it and adds to it the next time someone "bugs" him.
He justifies his behavior by saying that "so and so" pissed him off. When he calls me names, he justifies it by saying that I made him angry.
So there's just a sampling.
"
Maybe I was in a different thread, but I told YOU I wanted to hear the TOP 3 REASONS why you think YOUR SON is behaiving the way he is!!!!"
Right on. Yeah, it seems you didnt hear a word antigen said. We all know he is acting out. But why is he acting out? Like I said before, the main cause of my suicidal thoughts, depression, self mutilation, disrespect to my paretns was because of abuse I have suffered my whole life. If only I would have been able to deal with it and end it at an earlier age instead of now, I think I would have been a much happier person. And all a program did was tell me it didnt matter what happend to me in my life, I was responsible for my actions, I was just using the abuse as an excuse for my behavior. If there is something traumatic in his life that needs to be dealt with in an honest way, maybe that is where you need to start, not sending him away, expecially to a WWASP program.
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Sorry, not antigen, CCM girl.
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On 2005-12-06 12:09:00, famjaztique wrote:
"Top 3 reasons I think...
Well, part of the whole reason I'm posting here is because I'm in process of trying to figure that out. But if I had to make my own guesses I would say that he is upset that his father isn't around or involved and has essentially ruined his own life. Another part is that he was a smaller boy and more sensitive so got picked on a lot and then adopted a tough guy attitude to make up for it. Another part is probably genetic. I have since uncovered a long history of male anger on my mother's side and his father's father's sides of the family. Part of it may be a learning disability that hasn't been uncovered yet that has made him feel unsuccessful and got him labeled as a behavior problem that he is now living up to.
I think a very very large part of his anger toward school has to do with his 5th grade teacher who singled him out despite my multiple visits and complaints.
Also, for my own part, I think I didn't react soon enough!! I'm not an overreactive parent so when he started having trouble I figured he was just going through a difficult time and I got him therapy and listened to him and talked with him, thinking with support he would outgrow it.
"
Thank you, I didn't mean to be harsh, but it helps to know what you think the reasons might be for him acting out so we can give you ideas on how you might deal with this!
#1 You need to get him some kind of big brother. I know there are programs out there, but he needs to have a positive male role model, someone he can talk to about man stuff with (sports, chicks, etc.).
#2 It sucks to be smaller when you are a guy. How small are we talking.....like jockey size, or what? (I'm just kidding, I often times wish I were a lot shorter, so I could have been a jockey, yes I am dead serious). But, on a serious note there are other sports out there besides basketball/football he can participate in. Soccer is great, baseball is a possibility, golf is such an "in thing" right now with Tiger Woods and all. He needs to have activities like this.
#3 Having a learning disability is tough. Kids can be cruel, and if you enroll him in special classes at public school, other kids may tease him. I would find a school that specializes in whatever learning disability he may have.
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Why are you spending so much time on the internet talking to complete strangers? You seem to be online for a large portion of the day, perhaps this time would be better spent doing something to help the situation with your son. Where is your son during the day? At school? Do you have a job? Aren't you a single mother? I'm just curious. This all seems a little weird- you spending so much time on fornits - making an obscure argument about programs. I could be totally wrong, but something smells a little fishy.
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On 2005-12-06 13:08:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Why are you spending so much time on the internet talking to complete strangers? You seem to be online for a large portion of the day, perhaps this time would be better spent doing something to help the situation with your son. Where is your son during the day? At school? Do you have a job? Aren't you a single mother? I'm just curious. This all seems a little weird- you spending so much time on fornits - making an obscure argument about programs. I could be totally wrong, but something smells a little fishy."
Naw -- I was in the same place a couple of years ago. She is looking for answers, needs to be home all day worrying,afraid to have a life of her own, the internet serves as a great source of info, takes your mind off of the worry as you wait for him to come home etc,etc. Perfectly normal considering the circumstances.
Hang in there.
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Well, I don't know about Mom, but I am packing up my whole house as we speak! I take small breaks from time to time to post. My hubby, and I bought a home, and we are signing docs today at the title company! In fact, I better jump in the shower to get ready........bye!
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On 2005-12-06 13:15:00, CCM girl 1989 wrote:
"Well, I don't know about Mom, but I am packing up my whole house as we speak! I take small breaks from time to time to post. My hubby, and I bought a home, and we are signing docs today at the title company! In fact, I better jump in the shower to get ready........bye!"
Congrats -- good luck
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"Naw -- I was in the same place a couple of years ago. She is looking for answers, needs to be home all day worrying,afraid to have a life of her own, the internet serves as a great source of info, takes your mind off of the worry as you wait for him to come home etc,etc. Perfectly normal considering the circumstances.
Hang in there."
Yes, thank you. I am not on the computer all day. But after I've made all the phone calls, driven around for hours looking for him, I have nothing left to do but wait. Especially at night when all the businesses are closed. I'm a student so I'm also at the computer a lot anyway. I work part-time, mostly out of the home, and you guessed it, at the computer.
This forum, right now is my sanity. Into the wee hours of the night, when I'm worried, this helps me to feel like I'm doing something when there is nothing else I can do at that time. Getting any answers, insight I can. I don't expect everyone to understand, but I do appreciate those that do. I'm not pretending to be a perfect parent, but I'm not abusive, or alcoholic, I don't have a revolving door of boyfriends, I spend time with my family. I'm not an ogre. I'm a worried mother and for better or worse, this forum is providing me with a place to vent and get feedback.
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I just caught up on 3 pages of this discussion in five minutes. Like CCM girl, I find I can check in daily without losing much time out of my life.
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I'm the type of person, if I could save the world I would. If it didn't take so much darn schooling, I would be a shrink, and a great one at that! But,I don't have the time to invest in school, and that's okay. I do my "do goods" through this site, and I am okay with that. Some people are able to do more, and for that I am thankful. I don't believe in WWASPS or the majority of the programs out there, but I do believe in the home, as being the best enviroment possible. I'm not sure when all these places really started, as far as what year?!! But, I know they did not always exist, there fore they are a luxury. A way of parents off loading there kids, and making their lives easier. My advice to those parents out there with difficult teens.........try things the old fasioned way :smile:.
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On 2005-12-06 10:12:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-12-06 09:41:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-12-06 09:36:00, famjaztique wrote:
"I love that idea but I don't have the money. I am trying to get the school district to pay for an RTC and that's a fight in itself. Trying to get them to pay for him to study abroad is a no go.
"
Concerns about residential care primarily relate to criteria for admission; inconsistency of community-based treatment established in the 1980s; the costliness of such services (Friedman & Street, 1985); the risks of treatment, including failure to learn behavior needed in the community; the possibility of trauma associated with the separation from the family; difficulty reentering the family or even abandonment by the family; victimization by RTC staff; and learning of antisocial or bizarre behavior from intensive exposure to other disturbed children (Barker, 1998). These concerns are discussed below.
In the past, admission to an RTC has been justified on the basis of community protection, child protection, and benefits of residential treatment per se (Barker, 1982). However, none of these justifications have stood up to research scrutiny. In particular, youth who display seriously violent and aggressive behavior do not appear to improve in such settings, according to limited evidence (Joshi & Rosenberg, 1997).
http://www.enterthefreudianslip.com/sur ... ential.htm (http://www.enterthefreudianslip.com/surgeon_general_mental_health_ch3_treatment_interventions_residential.htm)
_________________________________________________
Ok, I'm ready. Show me your "positive research" on RTC's. I hope it's some real research and not just more pro-program bias that ruins so many people's credibility in these discussions...
"
Yes, I read that long ago. It really doesnt apply to the facilities we are talking about here. I can give you a link to someone who spent a few years at an RTC in Massachusetts interviewing and living with the kids thru their journey from beginning to end. It is a fascinating study on the treatment centers strengths and weaknesses.
Its a good read for those who are interested in a journalists point of view.
http://www.davemarcus.com/ (http://www.davemarcus.com/)"
A journalist? That's your "positive research?" Gimme a break already. You people are SO TIRED in your responses to basic questions.
A parent should trust a journalist's OPINION rather than the LONGITUDUNAL RESEARCH STUDIES of trained professionals in the psychiatric arena?
It really amazes me still, that after all these years there has never been even ONE SINGLE STUDY to show effectiveness of RTC's (read the definition from the study, "RTC" covers "behavior modification programs"). Again, all you have is glossy brochures with quotes from a journalist. With all that income, one would think the programs could have commissioned proper research by proper professionals to assess their efficacy. ALL relevent research concludes that RTC's are not effective in most of the cases researched and, in many cases, cause real psychological/social damages to the children and some even become victims of crime including abusive/perverse behaviors by staff or other more extreme patients.
These are the "schools" "program" supporters are referring perfectly normal kids to every day for TONS of money all for one end : HUGE PROFITS.
What I can't understand yet is why a parent will go for the glossy brochure over the judgment of real seasoned professionals? "There's one born every minute..."
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Also, about the Dave Marcus article:
1. It's full of holes.
2. It's ONE MAN'S OPINION of a particular program at a particular time, a "snapshot" if you will.
3. I personally know and worked with his major source for the story. A man known to be highly abusive, uncaring, strange, inappropriate, violent, etc. This person is as inappropriate and unprofessional as they come.
Just research a few of the names from the article and you'll find 20-year careers studded with such wonderful accomplishments ranging from physical/psychological abuse to vehicular manslaughter while DUI.
Yeah, I put a LOT of faith into THAT article. And those people.
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On 2005-12-07 05:09:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-12-06 10:12:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-12-06 09:41:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-12-06 09:36:00, famjaztique wrote:
"I love that idea but I don't have the money. I am trying to get the school district to pay for an RTC and that's a fight in itself. Trying to get them to pay for him to study abroad is a no go.
"
Concerns about residential care primarily relate to criteria for admission; inconsistency of community-based treatment established in the 1980s; the costliness of such services (Friedman & Street, 1985); the risks of treatment, including failure to learn behavior needed in the community; the possibility of trauma associated with the separation from the family; difficulty reentering the family or even abandonment by the family; victimization by RTC staff; and learning of antisocial or bizarre behavior from intensive exposure to other disturbed children (Barker, 1998). These concerns are discussed below.
In the past, admission to an RTC has been justified on the basis of community protection, child protection, and benefits of residential treatment per se (Barker, 1982). However, none of these justifications have stood up to research scrutiny. In particular, youth who display seriously violent and aggressive behavior do not appear to improve in such settings, according to limited evidence (Joshi & Rosenberg, 1997).
http://www.enterthefreudianslip.com/sur ... ential.htm (http://www.enterthefreudianslip.com/surgeon_general_mental_health_ch3_treatment_interventions_residential.htm)
_________________________________________________
Ok, I'm ready. Show me your "positive research" on RTC's. I hope it's some real research and not just more pro-program bias that ruins so many people's credibility in these discussions...
"
Yes, I read that long ago. It really doesnt apply to the facilities we are talking about here. I can give you a link to someone who spent a few years at an RTC in Massachusetts interviewing and living with the kids thru their journey from beginning to end. It is a fascinating study on the treatment centers strengths and weaknesses.
Its a good read for those who are interested in a journalists point of view.
http://www.davemarcus.com/ (http://www.davemarcus.com/)"
A journalist? That's your "positive research?" Gimme a break already. You people are SO TIRED in your responses to basic questions.
A parent should trust a journalist's OPINION rather than the LONGITUDUNAL RESEARCH STUDIES of trained professionals in the psychiatric arena?
It really amazes me still, that after all these years there has never been even ONE SINGLE STUDY to show effectiveness of RTC's (read the definition from the study, "RTC" covers "behavior modification programs"). Again, all you have is glossy brochures with quotes from a journalist. With all that income, one would think the programs could have commissioned proper research by proper professionals to assess their efficacy. ALL relevent research concludes that RTC's are not effective in most of the cases researched and, in many cases, cause real psychological/social damages to the children and some even become victims of crime including abusive/perverse behaviors by staff or other more extreme patients.
These are the "schools" "program" supporters are referring perfectly normal kids to every day for TONS of money all for one end : HUGE PROFITS.
What I can't understand yet is why a parent will go for the glossy brochure over the judgment of real seasoned professionals? "There's one born every minute...""
Calm down..... Its obvious you didnt read the book, its not a "glossy brochure", nor commissioned by the schools. Its not the end all, final say on RTC's its a point a view from the childs standpoint. No one is saying lets send all our kids there. Its a good read for parents and a different perspective. If one is going to educate themselves they need to be open minded and look at all points of view.
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On 2005-12-07 05:18:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Also, about the Dave Marcus article:
1. It's full of holes.
2. It's ONE MAN'S OPINION of a particular program at a particular time, a "snapshot" if you will.
3. I personally know and worked with his major source for the story. A man known to be highly abusive, uncaring, strange, inappropriate, violent, etc. This person is as inappropriate and unprofessional as they come.
Just research a few of the names from the article and you'll find 20-year careers studded with such wonderful accomplishments ranging from physical/psychological abuse to vehicular manslaughter while DUI.
Yeah, I put a LOT of faith into THAT article. And those people."
Sorry, you dont know, his major source where the kids he followed thru peer group from "Wilderness base camp" thru life steps into graduation.
You dont know what you are talking about, read the book , not the inside cover.
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Ok, so you hated the program and you're pissed off that you were sent there. I get that. So now what?? Where do you go from here?? What's next??
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On 2005-12-07 06:38:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Ok, so you hated the program and you're pissed off that you were sent there. I get that. So now what?? Where do you go from here?? What's next??"
You really seem to enjoy convincing yourself of certain 'facts' which simply aren't true. Have fun while the rest of us enjoy the real world.
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Calm down..... Its obvious you didnt read the book, its not a "glossy brochure", nor commissioned by the schools. Its not the end all, final say on RTC's its a point a view from the childs standpoint. No one is saying lets send all our kids there. Its a good read for parents and a different perspective. If one is going to educate themselves they need to be open minded and look at all points of view.
Sorry, you dont know, his major source where the kids he followed thru peer group from "Wilderness base camp" thru life steps into graduation.
You dont know what you are talking about, read the book , not the inside cover.
Read a book? You must be kidding! ::puke::
SOOOO....
PLEASE provide us with this evidence that RTC's and Behavior Mod facilities actually do more good than harm. It's a billion dollar industry, so you should be able to come up with something right????
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On 2005-12-07 08:08:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Calm down..... Its obvious you didnt read the book, its not a "glossy brochure", nor commissioned by the schools. Its not the end all, final say on RTC's its a point a view from the childs standpoint. No one is saying lets send all our kids there. Its a good read for parents and a different perspective. If one is going to educate themselves they need to be open minded and look at all points of view.
Sorry, you dont know, his major source where the kids he followed thru peer group from "Wilderness base camp" thru life steps into graduation.
You dont know what you are talking about, read the book , not the inside cover.
Read a book? You must be kidding! ::puke::
SOOOO....
PLEASE provide us with this evidence that RTC's and Behavior Mod facilities actually do more good than harm. It's a billion dollar industry, so you should be able to come up with something right????
"
Whew, sorry to set you off. I mentioned reading the book because the respondents were referring to it as a glossy brochure, which indicated that they didnt look at it. I am not saying everyone needs to read it. All I am asking is dont comment on something you have not read. If you have been thru programs I wouldnt expect you to be interested. But there are parents who only see what the read here and there are other points of view. Marcus lived there by his own choosing but his thoughts and writing are not entirely his own, they come from the kids doing the hard work, and yes I stand by what I say "Read the book" or dont comment on it, I am not pushing the book, I could care less. Read back a few post, there is a mother looking for answers and ways to help her son, we are trying to provide her with options and information. If you dont have the correct information (positive and negative) it is hard to make an informed decision.
The data on RTC is hard to come by, I tried to gather some up (# graduated,# abused,# died, # doing well, # doing poorly etc) but no studies have been done. It would be interesting to compare it to say the public school system, but the data is not available, atleast that I can find. So we can only go with what is written and the experiences of those who have been there. dont advocate all programs.
So anyway that is how the whole book thing came up, sorry if you took it the wrong way.
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The data on RTC is hard to come by, I tried to gather some up (# graduated,# abused,# died, # doing well, # doing poorly etc) but no studies have been done.
This is not a coincidence. They know it doesn't work, so why keep statistics?
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On 2005-12-07 09:13:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
The data on RTC is hard to come by, I tried to gather some up (# graduated,# abused,# died, # doing well, # doing poorly etc) but no studies have been done.
This is not a coincidence. They know it doesn't work, so why keep statistics?"
Or it could be extremely successful and they dont want to let anyone know how they do it or how much money they are making to keep competition away, so that is why the data isnt released.
Sure you can argue both ways, but without the data to back up each's position there is no way of knowing.
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Or it could be extremely successful and they dont want to let anyone know how they do it or how much money they are making to keep competition away, so that is why the data isnt released.
Sure you can argue both ways, but without the data to back up each's position there is no way of knowing.
:lol: :lol: :lol: Thanks, I needed a good laugh today.
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On 2005-12-07 09:45:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Or it could be extremely successful and they dont want to let anyone know how they do it or how much money they are making to keep competition away, so that is why the data isnt released.
Sure you can argue both ways, but without the data to back up each's position there is no way of knowing.
:lol: :lol: :lol: Thanks, I needed a good laugh today."
I agree sounds absurd, but without data its all she said he said and we have to sift thru all the posts and then determine how many people there are and who is credible etc. a daunting task, which RTCs are good, which are bad, which kids should go , which should not and how do we base our decisions etc.
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On 2005-12-07 09:51:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-12-07 09:45:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Or it could be extremely successful and they dont want to let anyone know how they do it or how much money they are making to keep competition away, so that is why the data isnt released.
Sure you can argue both ways, but without the data to back up each's position there is no way of knowing.
:roll: :lol:
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how do we base our decisions etc
I am basing my decisions on actually having been at a few of the programs discussed here. How about you?
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[/quote]Or it could be extremely successful and they dont want to let anyone know how they do it or how much money they are making to keep competition away, so that is why the data isnt released.
Sure you can argue both ways, but without the data to back up each's position there is no way of knowing."
[/quote]
Yeah, whatever!!!! You don't really believe that do you?!!
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On 2005-12-07 09:55:00, Anonymous wrote:
"how do we base our decisions etc
I am basing my decisions on actually having been at a few of the programs discussed here. How about you?"
Based on a few people I know who have been to one, but see we are only 2 people and we see a very narrow veiw. I cant base anyones decision to send their child or not based on the little that I know or the advice of one person (yourself). We need to step back and look at a broader view, a view of all who have graduated/ dropped out and compare their experiences with the national averages of other institutions to see how they sized up.
If my airbag failed to deploy in a Ford Taurus, would it be short sighted of me to want all cars removed from the road and ban anyone from driving based on my experience? Shouldnt we first consider that cars may help people, Fire truck, ambulances etc. or should we step back and look at a larger picture, maybe collect some data and see how many other people are being hurt etc.
Just questions, I am not taking a stand.
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Based on a few people I know who have been to one
I was expecting this type of response based on your posts, which make it clear you have never been in a program or even toured one, let alone have the experience necessary to give advice to other people about programs.
We need to step back and look at a broader view, a view of all who have graduated/ dropped out and compare their experiences with the national averages of other institutions to see how they sized up.
You don't get it, do you? There will never be any numbers to compare. WWASP claims a 96% success rate on their website. Why don't you call them up and ask them how they came up with that figure. :lol:
>If my airbag failed to deploy in a Ford Taurus, would it be short sighted of me to want all cars removed from the road and ban anyone from driving based on my experience?
It wouldn't be up to you. If it was a problem with the vehicle, Ford would have to investigate and possibly recall millions of vehicles at great cost to them. Why? Because they are part of a regulated industry. Parents have filed many lawsuits against WWASP and other programs for abuse, and nothing is done. That's the difference between a regulated industry and a completely unregulated industry. One has standards, the other doesn't. Look at how many consumer vehicle report agencies are out there. How many dateline episodes have you seen about 'what car rated highest for safety', etc? When it comes to programs, we are simply supposed to take their word for it? Come on, wake up!
Shouldnt we first consider that cars may help people, Fire truck, ambulances etc. or should we step back and look at a larger picture, maybe collect some data and see how many other people are being hurt etc.
It does make sense to keep data, doesn't it? The auto industry keep detailed statistics about what works and what doesn't, as do most legitimate organizations. So why don't these RTC's and Behavior Mod places do it? It doesn't take much to make a call to the parents a year after the kid leaves and ask them to take a survey. Why doesn't a third-party agency do this? What are they hiding? Hmmm.
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On 2005-12-07 10:22:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Based on a few people I know who have been to one
I was expecting this type of response based on your posts, which make it clear you have never been in a program or even toured one, let alone have the experience necessary to give advice to other people about programs.
We need to step back and look at a broader view, a view of all who have graduated/ dropped out and compare their experiences with the national averages of other institutions to see how they sized up.
You don't get it, do you? There will never be any numbers to compare. WWASP claims a 96% success rate on their website. Why don't you call them up and ask them how they came up with that figure. :lol:
>If my airbag failed to deploy in a Ford Taurus, would it be short sighted of me to want all cars removed from the road and ban anyone from driving based on my experience?
It wouldn't be up to you. If it was a problem with the vehicle, Ford would have to investigate and possibly recall millions of vehicles at great cost to them. Why? Because they are part of a regulated industry. Parents have filed many lawsuits against WWASP and other programs for abuse, and nothing is done. That's the difference between a regulated industry and a completely unregulated industry. One has standards, the other doesn't. Look at how many consumer vehicle report agencies are out there. How many dateline episodes have you seen about 'what car rated highest for safety', etc? When it comes to programs, we are simply supposed to take their word for it? Come on, wake up!
Shouldnt we first consider that cars may help people, Fire truck, ambulances etc. or should we step back and look at a larger picture, maybe collect some data and see how many other people are being hurt etc.
It does make sense to keep data, doesn't it? The auto industry keep detailed statistics about what works and what doesn't, as do most legitimate organizations. So why don't these RTC's and Behavior Mod places do it? It doesn't take much to make a call to the parents a year after the kid leaves and ask them to take a survey. Why doesn't a third-party agency do this? What are they hiding? Hmmm.
"
"It doesn't take much to make a call to the parents a year after the kid leaves and ask them to take a survey. Why doesn't a third-party agency do this? What are they hiding? "
Careful dont assume things about people
I have toured many. My child finished up a couple of years ago, great idea about the survey!! See stuff like this works. Anyway, doesnt matter why there isnt any data, if there is a conspiricy or not, how does one conclude for sure? They cant, you need to have data.
Lets get them regulated !! great start, that was exactly my point with the car industry, but the schools need to be foreced into it, they are not going to volunteer!! Would most teens voluteer to get their drivers test, no would they be bad people if they didnt, no. There needs to be a law to force people and or institutions to comply and that plants the seed for unbiased and regulated data collection. But just because there is no data doesnt mean hand full of people can decide what is right, good or bad.
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Basically, the problem is that people who post here more often than not think they're a lot smarter than they are. The jackass that posted that last little airbag anecdote probably sat there licking his lips while he was writing it. "Oh man! This is GOLD! This'll tell 'em how it is." And he was probably so proud of himself when he posted it.
And in all reality he just sounded like the complete half-wit that he is. Quit trying to sound all intelligent and get back to rotating my tires.
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My child finished up a couple of years ago
What program you sent your child to, and how did it work out?
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On 2005-12-07 13:06:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Basically, the problem is that people who post here more often than not think they're a lot smarter than they are. The jackass that posted that last little airbag anecdote probably sat there licking his lips while he was writing it. "Oh man! This is GOLD! This'll tell 'em how it is." And he was probably so proud of himself when he posted it.
And in all reality he just sounded like the complete half-wit that he is. Quit trying to sound all intelligent and get back to rotating my tires. "
OH MAN, YOU TELL 'EM! :roll:
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On 2005-12-07 13:06:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Basically, the problem is that people who post here more often than not think they're a lot smarter than they are. The jackass that posted that last little airbag anecdote probably sat there licking his lips while he was writing it. "Oh man! This is GOLD! This'll tell 'em how it is." And he was probably so proud of himself when he posted it.
And in all reality he just sounded like the complete half-wit that he is. Quit trying to sound all intelligent and get back to rotating my tires. "
I guess you are on to me, I really have a low I.Q., the airbag analogy was a huge break thru for me, thought I would get respect with that one.
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On 2005-12-07 13:34:00, Anonymous wrote:
"My child finished up a couple of years ago
What program you sent your child to, and how did it work out? "
ASR, Did really well, a small adjustment period afterwards, it turned out to be a good thing.
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ASR, Did really well, a small adjustment period afterwards, it turned out to be a good thing.
What is ASR? Could you elaborate a little more, why don't you offer us your experience...?
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On 2005-12-07 14:13:00, Anonymous wrote:
"ASR, Did really well, a small adjustment period afterwards, it turned out to be a good thing.
What is ASR? Could you elaborate a little more, why don't you offer us your experience...?"
Academy at Swift River, small school in the Berkshires of Massachusetts. They are part of the Aspen group, 14 - 16 months on average as a stay.
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A call to the PARENTS?
After a YEAR?
A SURVEY?
How about a team of qualified and skilled professionals sit down with the PARTICIPANTS and ask enough questions to determine what methods were used to modify their behavior and if it was ethical, if it REALLY 'worked', or if their parents actually paid hundreds of thousands of dollars for a Holding Tank complete with Acting School.
Many suvivors don't come to reality until 5+ years out of their programming facility. So, to really know the truth you wouldn't stop with 1 year 'graduates'.
Who or what agency stands to gain from such data? Who would pay for this daunting task?
While we're waiting for that interested third-party to manifest, we could start compiling questions for ex-residents, for shits and grins.
Was the program 'successful' in modifying your behavior?
In your own words, how do you feel they accomplished this?
Do you ever have nightmares about the program?
Upon your release did you have problems 'fitting in', or ever feel like you were inherently flawed?
Have you been dx's with PTSD or any other 'disorder' since being released?
Are you on meds or in therapy?
Is it hard for you to genuinely trust others?
Do you ever feel rage or total helplessness around authority figures?
Do you hold resentment toward your parents or programs staff?
Do you have any problems associated with advocating for yourself?
Do you really abstain for drug/alcohol use, or have you just learned how to snow your parents?
Would you place your own child in a program?
The list could go on and on covering specific punishments; withholding of food, contact with family; etc.etc.etc.
And to get genuninely honest answers, the interviewee should be hooked up to a lie detector machine.
Their conditioning is such that they are confused. They have been punished for saying what they think and feel. They are required to always 'look on the sunny side' or suffer severe consequences- the creation of Stepford children, brilliant actors. Chances are really good that even if the program was abusive (covertly or overtly) their conditioned response would be to lightly make mention and quickly get off the subject or minimize. That's if they even recognize their 'treatment' as abuse.
Yes, accurate data could be very useful.
Until then, the accounts of abuse and deaths will have to suffice for the discerning parent who may not understand that they're rolling the dice with their child's well-being when they consider a warehouse facility.
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On 2005-12-07 14:50:00, Anonymous wrote:
"A call to the PARENTS?
After a YEAR?
A SURVEY?
How about a team of qualified and skilled professionals sit down with the PARTICIPANTS and ask enough questions to determine what methods were used to modify their behavior and if it was ethical, if it REALLY 'worked', or if their parents actually paid hundreds of thousands of dollars for a Holding Tank complete with Acting School.
Many suvivors don't come to reality until 5+ years out of their programming facility. So, to really know the truth you wouldn't stop with 1 year 'graduates'.
Who or what agency stands to gain from such data? Who would pay for this daunting task?
While we're waiting for that interested third-party to manifest, we could start compiling questions for ex-residents, for shits and grins.
Was the program 'successful' in modifying your behavior?
In your own words, how do you feel they accomplished this?
Do you ever have nightmares about the program?
Upon your release did you have problems 'fitting in', or ever feel like you were inherently flawed?
Have you been dx's with PTSD or any other 'disorder' since being released?
Are you on meds or in therapy?
Is it hard for you to genuinely trust others?
Do you ever feel rage or total helplessness around authority figures?
Do you hold resentment toward your parents or programs staff?
Do you have any problems associated with advocating for yourself?
Do you really abstain for drug/alcohol use, or have you just learned how to snow your parents?
Would you place your own child in a program?
The list could go on and on covering specific punishments; withholding of food, contact with family; etc.etc.etc.
And to get genuninely honest answers, the interviewee should be hooked up to a lie detector machine.
Their conditioning is such that they are confused. They have been punished for saying what they think and feel. They are required to always 'look on the sunny side' or suffer severe consequences- the creation of Stepford children, brilliant actors. Chances are really good that even if the program was abusive (covertly or overtly) their conditioned response would be to lightly make mention and quickly get off the subject or minimize. That's if they even recognize their 'treatment' as abuse.
Yes, accurate data could be very useful.
Until then, the accounts of abuse and deaths will have to suffice for the discerning parent who may not understand that they're rolling the dice with their child's well-being when they consider a warehouse facility."
This is a great start, the questions on the questionnaire could be expanded and actually given to the kids prior to entering a facility and then at 1 year increments after graduation, to see how their views have changed. As you mentioned there seems to be a 5 year critical point, this could be verified by a shift in data at that point. Some schools may graduate kids who have a shift at year 3, which would prompt someone to ask the question what is different with the 2 schools etc.
Success rates/failures could be monitored by number of years in college, times returned, jail time , living back with family etc.
I think the lie detector hook-up might be a hard sell, say a kid claims he was abused but refuses to be hooked-up, the data would have to be discarded and you would loss some valuable data that way. Any type of data collection from people is going to contain false reports, but as you collect more and more data points the skewed data tends to fall out and the truth rises to the top (but we are talking years)
for example during the period July 1, 1999 to June 30,2000 there were 2,124 Homicides and 1,922 Suicides of youth ages 5-19 in the United States. Do RTC account for more than their portion? Right now we dont know
Another Statistic:"In 1999?2000, an estimated 1.5 million violent incidents occurred in public elementary and secondary schools. Seventy-one percent of public schools experienced one or more violent incidents and 36 percent of schools reported one or more such incidents to the police.
Where do RTC's fall within this range? Are they doing better or worse? We just dont know and I dont think that is acceptable, we need to find out and the only way anyone will listen is to compare the data.
Until that time we can only rely on what other parents and students who have been there have to say and figure out credible their story is.
I think we agree
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I'm not sure if we agree.
I don't think I'm on board with your view of 'success'. Why would 'number of years in college' be listed. Who has determined that college is necessary for success, IF success is defined as peace and contentment with self and others?
This appears to be at least one significant factor in parents incarcerating their kids. They also put college education under the Success heading and when their kid veers off that pre-determined path, off they go to RTC. Would it be the end of the world if a kid chose not to attend college?
I also would not necessarily catagorize 'living back at home' unsuccessful- particularly in the current economy. Not sure what you're implying.
As to the lie detector. I'm very curious how this would work when someone has had their thoughts modified. For instance, my son, when asked to list abuses for discovery, would say "so and so happened but that wasn't abuse, it was a consequence". Well, it was abuse, by the most conservative definition. But he had been conditioned/trained to think of it as normal and appropriate. I don't know how that would work, but would be curious to see how the detector responded. Would it show him to be lying if he'd been led to believe that the abuses he endured were normal and not abuse. Now that's a study I'd be interested in seeing.
I understand that it's important to you to compare the deaths/accidents/abuse in RTCs to those in other social institutions, but I consider it a moot point. Parents pay upwards to 60, 70K a year to put their kid in a 'therapeutic' bubble, to isolate and protect them from the risks of living in the real world with all its inherent dangers; while having their behavior, thoughts, feelings modified. I'd say for that kind of money, there shouldn't be even one death, minimal injuries that are not associated with risky activities the child is forced to participate in, and certainly no abuse.
Injuries and abuse aside, there were 14+ deaths in RTCs in 2000- right up there with appendicitis. Too many. I do have to wonder how many of those kids would be dead today if they hadn't been placed outside their homes. That is impossible to ascertain with any study or survey for the obvious reason that they are dead.... and RTCs will remain a risk parents take with their kids life in their quest for protection, perfection and success- as they define it.
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On 2005-12-07 18:13:00, Deborah wrote:
"
I'm not sure if we agree.
I don't think I'm on board with your view of 'success'. Why would 'number of years in college' be listed. Who has determined that college is necessary for success, IF success is defined as peace and contentment with self and others?
This appears to be at least one significant factor in parents incarcerating their kids. They also put college education under the Success heading and when their kid veers off that pre-determined path, off they go to RTC. Would it be the end of the world if a kid chose not to attend college?
I also would not necessarily catagorize 'living back at home' unsuccessful- particularly in the current economy. Not sure what you're implying.
As to the lie detector. I'm very curious how this would work when someone has had their thoughts modified. For instance, my son, when asked to list abuses for discovery, would say "so and so happened but that wasn't abuse, it was a consequence". Well, it was abuse, by the most conservative definition. But he had been conditioned/trained to think of it as normal and appropriate. I don't know how that would work, but would be curious to see how the detector responded. Would it show him to be lying if he'd been led to believe that the abuses he endured were normal and not abuse. Now that's a study I'd be interested in seeing.
I understand that it's important to you to compare the deaths/accidents/abuse in RTCs to those in other social institutions, but I consider it a moot point. Parents pay upwards to 60, 70K a year to put their kid in a 'therapeutic' bubble, to isolate and protect them from the risks of living in the real world with all its inherent dangers; while having their behavior, thoughts, feelings modified. I'd say for that kind of money, there shouldn't be even one death, minimal injuries that are not associated with risky activities the child is forced to participate in, and certainly no abuse.
Injuries and abuse aside, there were 14+ deaths in RTCs in 2000- right up there with appendicitis. Too many. I do have to wonder how many of those kids would be dead today if they hadn't been placed outside their homes. That is impossible to ascertain with any study or survey for the obvious reason that they are dead.... and RTCs will remain a risk parents take with their kids life in their quest for protection, perfection and success- as they define it.
"
One really cant measure success for others. Some parents just want to see their kid alive for another 6 months. Sometimes the kids want to attend a trade school or get their GED which is great, its all individual, success is a personal measurement.
The lie detector issue is bizarre, it shouldnt be used, the data will speak for itself.
So far I agree with you, where we part a little is when you mention 14+ have died in 2000 and how many of these would have lived if they remained home and that the number is too high. I agree but we will never know. How many of the graduates who lived would have died if not for the, as you call it "'therapeutic' bubble"? Are the kids entering these schools at a higher risk of harming themselves then your average high school student? Less risky? We dont know. So how does one approach this?
If one child dies do we shut every school down?
2 die, 3? and what do we base our decisions on? If parents pay 70k they should expect 0 deaths, but the ones who are there on state money can accept a couple of deaths, that I dont buy. I dont think the money is a factor, who cares what it costs, the schools dont set the price the parents do. They charge exactly what the parents are willing to pay and not a penny less, the same as anything else in America, milk, gas, weed. The prices are set by the people, they stop buying and the price goes down.
Over time the data will speak for itself, even if it has flaws and people are not being honest. Once you start comparing the results to previous years and other institutions the problem areas stick out and you go after them.
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Oh thanks, Deborah, for your response. I think we basically agree that its hard to make sense of just individual cases without relating it somehow to a larger piece.
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***How many of the graduates who lived would have died if not for the, as you call it "'therapeutic' bubble"? Are the kids entering these schools at a higher risk of harming themselves then your average high school student? Less risky? We dont know.
No, we don?t. And it seems a waste of time, to seek answers to questions that can?t be objectively or definitively answered. How could you possibly ever show that those who were placed would?ve died otherwise? You can?t. How would you determine if they are at higher or lower risk than the average teen? You could only guess, based on your observations, perceptions and the level of fear you feel about their ?symptoms?. I can?t see that that would be any different than the status quo. If your child exhibits x,y,z behaviors they are at risk of being deadinsaneorinjail without a program.
Life holds no guarantees. A child could be stricken with an incurable disease the day they returned from a program, or be killed in a car accident or stab themselves in the chest while opening a box that contains their mail order skateboard- happened to a friend's son who didn't actually die but could've if he had removed the knife. The therapeutic bubble can provide no guarantees either. And that is a fact that is proven here at Fornits on a daily basis.
A point of clarity, in case you were confused. I didn?t imply that deaths in state run facilities or placements in programs funded by the state were acceptable. And I beg to differ regarding the money not being important. People are willing to pay unreasonable amounts of money, incur debt they can't afford for anything that appeals to them, that they feel they need or have been led to believe that they need, until or unless they realize they didn?t get their money?s worth. In other words, scammed. If it weren't an issue, how many program owners would be filing into the state office to get licensed if parents and Ed Cons refused to place another kid in an unlicensed facilities? Where money is involved you'll likely find compromises in integrity and ethics.
Over time the data on deaths, injuries (physical and psychological), and abuses could be sufficient, if they were compiled in an easily readable format for parents. Unfortunately, it currently requires significant research, if parents even think to do that.
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All this talk about studies and efficacy misses the point. What are you trying to say? If a study proves that torture works then torture is okay? Not in my world.
It really pisses me off when I read about the physical and psychological torment that is inherent in the methods of these programs and then have program supporters chime in and say this is not abuse.
They act like teenagers are a sub-human species without rights or even the right to have a will of their own and that they, the parents, can pretty much do whatever they want to 'save' the kid, even if it involves such extreme measures.
There was a news article in MSNBC that says:
?The debate is whether you can use interrogation methods that are short of torture,? he said. ?Some who have been critical of the Bush administration have confused torture with cruel, inhumane treatment.?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10345320 (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10345320)
Excuse me? How can anyone get away with saying there is a difference between torture and cruel, inhumane treatment? Do you expect to anyone to believe that there is 'humane torture?'
Program supporters do.
61 percent of Americans agreed torture is justified at least on rare occasions.
I thought we were supposed to be the good guys. I thought one reason for going into Iraq was to stop the torture. It is this kind of hypocritical thinking that tolerates the existence of these programs.
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Stupid mother, I should've made an Ascent for dumbshit parents like yourself, fanjazzmatique or whatever the fuck your name is. It would have been a BILLION times more profitable.
Tried everything, eh? Except putting the rock down while you were pregnant. Or making sure the fumes didnt slip through the cracks in his bedroom door as your were lighting up when he was growing up. A little late to take all that back, huh. [ This Message was edited by: Papa Rossi on 2005-12-07 22:31 ]
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On 2005-12-07 20:37:00, Deborah wrote:
"***How many of the graduates who lived would have died if not for the, as you call it "'therapeutic' bubble"? Are the kids entering these schools at a higher risk of harming themselves then your average high school student? Less risky? We dont know.
No, we don?t. And it seems a waste of time, to seek answers to questions that can?t be objectively or definitively answered. How could you possibly ever show that those who were placed would?ve died otherwise? You can?t. How would you determine if they are at higher or lower risk than the average teen? You could only guess, based on your observations, perceptions and the level of fear you feel about their ?symptoms?. I can?t see that that would be any different than the status quo. If your child exhibits x,y,z behaviors they are at risk of being deadinsaneorinjail without a program.
Life holds no guarantees. A child could be stricken with an incurable disease the day they returned from a program, or be killed in a car accident or stab themselves in the chest while opening a box that contains their mail order skateboard- happened to a friend's son who didn't actually die but could've if he had removed the knife. The therapeutic bubble can provide no guarantees either. And that is a fact that is proven here at Fornits on a daily basis.
A point of clarity, in case you were confused. I didn?t imply that deaths in state run facilities or placements in programs funded by the state were acceptable. And I beg to differ regarding the money not being important. People are willing to pay unreasonable amounts of money, incur debt they can't afford for anything that appeals to them, that they feel they need or have been led to believe that they need, until or unless they realize they didn?t get their money?s worth. In other words, scammed. If it weren't an issue, how many program owners would be filing into the state office to get licensed if parents and Ed Cons refused to place another kid in an unlicensed facilities? Where money is involved you'll likely find compromises in integrity and ethics.
Over time the data on deaths, injuries (physical and psychological), and abuses could be sufficient, if they were compiled in an easily readable format for parents. Unfortunately, it currently requires significant research, if parents even think to do that.
"
Deborah, I see your point, kids can die no matter how much you try to protect them and I agree. I see alot of posting about this abuse or that death and a frustration of trying to have people take notice. My first question would be "Is the abuse/death rate for the schools you speak of significantly higher than the national average, say compared to public schools for example?" If that answer is yes then we have a systemic problem with RTCs and we should bring this to the attention of the authorities (who ever they may be) and they will listen if we approached them properly.
I see many people who would rather throw eggs at the school owners than try to help future kids who may be attending these facilities, pulling together and trying to make a difference. Most every significant change in regulation is done thru data analysis.
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On 2005-12-07 20:51:00, AtomicAnt wrote:
"All this talk about studies and efficacy misses the point. What are you trying to say? If a study proves that torture works then torture is okay? Not in my world.
It really pisses me off when I read about the physical and psychological torment that is inherent in the methods of these programs and then have program supporters chime in and say this is not abuse.
They act like teenagers are a sub-human species without rights or even the right to have a will of their own and that they, the parents, can pretty much do whatever they want to 'save' the kid, even if it involves such extreme measures.
There was a news article in MSNBC that says:
?The debate is whether you can use interrogation methods that are short of torture,? he said. ?Some who have been critical of the Bush administration have confused torture with cruel, inhumane treatment.?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10345320 (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10345320)
Excuse me? How can anyone get away with saying there is a difference between torture and cruel, inhumane treatment? Do you expect to anyone to believe that there is 'humane torture?'
Program supporters do.
61 percent of Americans agreed torture is justified at least on rare occasions.
I thought we were supposed to be the good guys. I thought one reason for going into Iraq was to stop the torture. It is this kind of hypocritical thinking that tolerates the existence of these programs."
Dont be pissed off. The guy is just trying to collect information to show the schools are not protecting our kids. I didnt see anyone talking about torture, oh maybe you poosted in the wrong place, sorry.
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"Stupid mother, I should've made an Ascent for dumbshit parents like yourself, fanjazzmatique or whatever the fuck your name is. It would have been a BILLION times more profitable.
Tried everything, eh? Except putting the rock down while you were pregnant. Or making sure the fumes didnt slip through the cracks in his bedroom door as your were lighting up when he was growing up. A little late to take all that back, huh. [ This Message was edited by: Papa Rossi on 2005-12-07 22:31 ]"
That's an incredibly intelligent insult, thank you so much. Are you implying my son is messed up because I'm a drug addict or something? That's brilliant. I am not now, nor have ever been a drug addict. And I made the decision to homeschool instead of putting him in an RTC while simultaneously continuing to pursue testing for non-verbal learning disabilities. I am also retaining a lawyer to protect my son's right within the school system and to keep him from being placed by the SCHOOL DISTRICT anywhere that might be abusive to him or exacerbate his problems.
But frankly, I am sick and tired of people automatically blaming parents. Not all parents are bad. I'm sorry if any of you were abused or misunderstood. I am exploring every option to understand my own child. Including talking to him....every day. That's a no-brainer. So if you want to do some good in the world, stop insulting people and get to work helping.
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On 2005-12-08 12:22:00, Anonymous wrote:
""Stupid mother, I should've made an Ascent for dumbshit parents like yourself, fanjazzmatique or whatever the fuck your name is. It would have been a BILLION times more profitable.
Tried everything, eh? Except putting the rock down while you were pregnant. Or making sure the fumes didnt slip through the cracks in his bedroom door as your were lighting up when he was growing up. A little late to take all that back, huh. [ This Message was edited by: Papa Rossi on 2005-12-07 22:31 ]"
That's an incredibly intelligent insult, thank you so much. Are you implying my son is messed up because I'm a drug addict or something? That's brilliant. I am not now, nor have ever been a drug addict. And I made the decision to homeschool instead of putting him in an RTC while simultaneously continuing to pursue testing for non-verbal learning disabilities. I am also retaining a lawyer to protect my son's right within the school system and to keep him from being placed by the SCHOOL DISTRICT anywhere that might be abusive to him or exacerbate his problems.
But frankly, I am sick and tired of people automatically blaming parents. Not all parents are bad. I'm sorry if any of you were abused or misunderstood. I am exploring every option to understand my own child. Including talking to him....every day. That's a no-brainer. So if you want to do some good in the world, stop insulting people and get to work helping."
Hey Mom, sorry you had to hear that. I have been here a while and from time to time we get people who sign on just to abuse people. They usually move on to another web site, dont take it personally, they are usually trying to deal with some personal problems and need a place to vent. They dont intend to add any value or help anyone.
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The largest problem with a longitudinal study on any of these programs is not that they are not regulated or wouldn't allow access or whatever. Though regulation would, in fact, significantly speed the process. Research happens when someone becomes interested in the topic and can pose a convincing argument that a valid study can be conducted to the funding source. This requires a lot of steps, and for all we know, someone is conducting a study as we speak. Valid research that will be respected by the scientific community and therefore the government, takes time.
Are people on this website rallying in any way for government regulation? Is there any cohesiveness to the movement? Someone, ideally one of you, needs to make contact with officials, get a petition started, and stage protests. Launch a media campaign. Start a non-profit.
Essentially, be pro-active. I think this website serves many purposes, even helping parents make decisions (except for those who simply enjoy slinging insults). And I commend you all for sharing your stories and thoughts with each other.
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Famjaztique,
I agree don't pay any attention to Papa Rossi! I have never come across him in here. Hopefully, he won't be back. Once in a while you come across people like him. You can't take anything he says personally. The majority of us here are good people. Hope all is well, and you are getting the information you need to make the right decision for your son. If you take the time to go through this site, you will find out that there is some wonderful progress being made by a number of people to bring about change in these RTC's, and how they are run.
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I think that people on this forum who are hostile toward parents are just going through their own thing. I think a few years ago, I would have been the same way. It took a long time to realize that although my parents made a bad decision that cost me a lot, they were fooled by the facility's promises too. My parents didn't have the luxury of the internet back in '92.
Anyway, famjaztique, I think it's great that you're researching. Your son sounds a lot like me at that age. I got into stuff pretty early, and that's what freaked my parents out. I wasn't a drug addict, but I didn't care about school, smoked pot, etc. at 13 and 14. I think that I would have benefitted a lot from home school. There are certain labels that you get in school that are nearly impossible to shake. Even switching schools, the labels still followed me. I think getting out of that type of social environment would have been good. My parents sent me away for three years. They wanted to make sure I graduated before I came home. I did, but when I got out, I dropped out of college and started doing drugs that I never dreamed I would do.
I think that there are kids who will learn by what you tell them, but there are kids who have to learn for themselves what the rules in life are. When I dropped out of college, my parents said I should get a job, because they weren't going to support me for no reason. I did, and figured out that I did not like minimum wage, and that I needed to go back to school if I wanted the type of lifestyle I had grown up with. Except my parents made me pay for it myself since I waited too long. I'll graduate from law school in May. So, you see, I needed to learn things my own way.
It's not the end of the world if your son drops out of school. There are plenty of people here at law school who got their GEDs and are at the top of the class. Your son may just be one of those people who has to learn the hard way. You could at least keep your relationship in tact by not sending him away.
Good luck to you.
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Thank you both. This is an emotionally raw time. As a parent, everywhere you go...to the school, other parents, friends, etc...there is always someone who just wants to say, "well, you must be fucking your kid up otherwise he wouldn't be this way.". Everyone seems to think they know just what to do, and when they try it backfires, and then the mantra is, "wow, there's really something wrong with this kid, he needs to be institutionalized or medicated."
Anyway, yes, I'm homeschooling for now. And already the change is remarkable. This isn't the first time. I homeschooled in sixth grade as well, and it was like he was "back". And without me having to tell him not to drugs, or be home or whatever, he just did those things because he was happy again! And this time, just the realization that he was going to be homeschooled turned him from a kid ready to bolt to a kid who was snuggled up with me on the couch watching a movie last night. Something about school is toxic to him, and it's not just that he wants to get out of doing work. He WANTS to be in school.
Anyway, so that is why I'm having tests for nonverbal learning disabilities. The school has labeled him as "depressed and angry". .....only when in school....only in school.
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This is an emotionally raw time.
Think how it must be for the guy/gal who just spent a couple years locked up against their will, to come on this forum and read about how hard it is for parents who send their kid away. Then you might understand some of the responses you get on this forum. Afterall, this is a program survivor board, correct - so why be so surprised when a bitter program victim shows up to say something?
Freaking out is exactly what these programs want you to do. They want you to let down your guard, and start looking for answers. Any answer. That is where they step in to, first, scare the living shit out of you with their lies and propoganda (deadorinjail...etc), second, somehow convince you to give up your child to a bunch of unqualified thugs and kidnappers for the cost of a new mortgage. It's a scam. Don't fall for it. Don't even consider these programs an option if you value any relationship with your son. If you feel you need to send him away, I hear they are taking applications for the next season of Brat Camp. :roll:
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On 2005-12-08 15:26:00, Anonymous wrote:
"This is an emotionally raw time.
Think how it must be for the guy/gal who just spent a couple years locked up against their will, to come on this forum and read about how hard it is for parents who send their kid away. Then you might understand some of the responses you get on this forum. Afterall, this is a program survivor board, correct - so why be so surprised when a bitter program victim shows up to say something?
Freaking out is exactly what these programs want you to do. They want you to let down your guard, and start looking for answers. Any answer. That is where they step in to, first, scare the living shit out of you with their lies and propoganda (deadorinjail...etc), second, somehow convince you to give up your child to a bunch of unqualified thugs and kidnappers for the cost of a new mortgage. It's a scam. Don't fall for it. Don't even consider these programs an option if you value any relationship with your son. If you feel you need to send him away, I hear they are taking applications for the next season of Brat Camp. :roll: "
Its tough on the entire family not just the parents. Everyone suffers when the family is broken apart, the child, siblings parents etc.
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Its tough on the entire family not just the parents. Everyone suffers when the family is broken apart, the child, siblings parents etc.
::boohoo::
One thing they do at WWASP programs is drill that thought into your head until you feel so guilty, you will do/say whatever they want. Future tip: if you don't want your family broken apart, don't hire kidnappers to come steal your kid away to keep them imprisoned by a cult for a couple years.
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On 2005-12-08 16:07:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Its tough on the entire family not just the parents. Everyone suffers when the family is broken apart, the child, siblings parents etc.
::boohoo::
One thing they do at WWASP programs is drill that thought into your head until you feel so guilty, you will do/say whatever they want. Future tip: if you don't want your family broken apart, don't hire kidnappers to come steal your kid away to keep them imprisoned by a cult for a couple years. "
No I am just thinking in general "Outside WWASP". Whenever a family is in crisis or one member is hurting the entire family unit is hurting, not just the parents or not just the kids. Has nothing to do with having a family member kidnapped?? not sure where that came from, must have missed a post somewhere.
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Famjaztique :nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy:
I know this may seem simplistic and unconventional, obvious and rediculous all at the same time, but... what if you found and solved the problem already? School, as we do it these days, based on the Prussian gymnasium model, is one messed up thing to do to anyone, never mind impressionable, helpless, trusting children. If getting out of school is that good for him, why do anything else? Why borrow trouble?
It's been my contention for some time now that the troubled parent industry* is a natural and necessary adjunct to our modern education system. As it becomes more toxic and more stressful to the average kid, more and more kids are snapping under the pressure, acting out in ways that we old farts find disturbing and inexplicable.
But we're making kids just the same today as we have for millions of years. It's the schools and the communities (or lack thereof) in which they exist that are changing. To say that a kid who's not happy and thriving in this monstrosity must somehow be disordered and in need of treatment sounds just exactly the same to me as Stalin's programe for "treating" people who were too mentally ill to be happy in the workers' paradise he'd given them.
But getting back to another point. What would be the value of studies to compare outcomes, injuries, etc.? IMO, not a whole hell of a lot. Certainly the true believers will not be impressed. They're convinced that their kids would be dead w/o the program. They liken it to chemo therapy or something. The trouble is there is no emperical evidence at all to support that there was anything wrong with the kids to begin with. But others outside of these cults might stand up and take notice if we could show, through peer reviewed study, the actual rates of suicide and other horrid outcomes that I believe come out of these programs.
It would be better, by far, to examine how the schools and changes in our society at large (Nazification?) and changes in the economy and in politics and war; how do these things contribute to our kids' wellbeing? And are we really seeing kids breaking down? Or are we just being overly nostalgic about our own history and deeming them disordered if they turn out a bit more like Eddy Haskel than like Wally Cleaver?
Honestly, I think that's the root of the problem. Our parents and grandparents fell for the scam that they needed professional help to make and raise kids. It was a like. The industrial revolution needed professionals to break children while they're young, to prevent them from becoming fully independent, free soverign adults. Free soverign adults don't make very good factory workers nor office workers. And, the way things are going today, any kid who resists the breaking process, who reacts to the inarticulable insult to their humanity is deemed disordered and tagged and cataloged for further processing.
Don't fall for it, that's all. Just do what comes naturally; love them.
*By 'troubled parent industry' I don't mean that parents are the only ones who screw kids up. I don't even believe that most, or even a significant minority of these kids are actually disordered or dysfunctional or in need of fixing at all. By troubled parent, I mean parents who take that bait, hook, line and sinker and who, unlike you, let the full force and brunt of the situation fall to their kids while they pay some used car salesman lots and lots of money to continually tell them they're doing the right thing, no matter what their gut says.
In all history, there is no instance of a country having benefited from prolonged warfare. Only one who knows the disastrous effects of a long war can realize the supreme importance of rapidity in bringing it to a close. It is only one who is thoroughly acquainted with the evils of war who can thoroughly understand the profitable way of carrying it on.
--Sun Tzu (author of The Art of War
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Antigen, I totally agree with you on many many levels. In fact, and I may have mentioned this before, but my focus in my studies is evolutionary psychology and looking at how many things that are labeled as "disorders" are not disorders at all when looked at from another angle. And I also feel that we are a culture of fear right now. If our child doesn't make it into Harvard, we're bad parents. And god forbid that they shoudl smoke a little pot or have a temper tantrum past the age of two. We live in an age where elementary school children are sometimes taken out of the school in handcuffs. We live post-Columbine and post 9/11. It's a shame that the whole society can't just take a step back and look at what we are doing to kids who just need a little more space or a little more encouragement (and I would definitely err on the side of encouragement).
That said, while homeschooling offers a temporary respite from my child's stress and being suspended every other week, it is not a long term solution for multiple reasons. One, I am a single mother and once I graduate in the spring, I will have much less flexibility because I will have to work full time. Ideally I would like to find something flexible or that I can do from home, but realistically that may not happen. Another reason is that my gut has been telling me for a long time there is something going wrong with this kid that is beyond the norm. That is based on a long history of anxiety, OCD behavior, night terrors, trouble sleeping since he was very small. He has certainly had events in his life that might cause this, but therapy has done little to help, and I've always been understanding. Even as a baby, he was very different from other kids.
Let me go off track for a sec. When he was little I didn't mind one little bit that he wasn't like other boys. Just so someone coming in without having my other posts doesn't jump to the conclusion that I'm trying to make a round peg out of a square one.
The fact is, his differences make him suffer in many arenas. But because he's bright, it is assumed by everyone it is just behavior problems. I see now that most of the programs we are talking about here would do little to help with that. But they DO prey on desparate parents. I'm also trying to help him head off problems as an adult. Many of the males on his father's side and my mother's side have had difficulty maintaining jobs and families due to their "behavior". I think a lot of them were in need of earlier intervention.
Whew.
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Ginger, thanks for the reminder of how similar RTCs actually are to PSs.
Comparing RTCs to PSs is like comparing Abu Garib to jail.
PSs don?t house kids 24/7 and are not in the business of ?treating? so-called ?mental disorders? (yet, anyway).
Wouldn?t it be more accurate to compare them to other lock-down institutions, say like juvie or jail or other out-patient interventions?
What percentage of kids are dx?d with PTSD or have recurrent nightmares or require therapy upon graduation from public school, juvie, or RTCs?
RTCs are considered and sold as intervention- providing ?therapy? and a controlled environment to keep kids safe.
Where you might see take-downs on a very rare occasion in PSs, it is standard practice in RTCs and probably in juvie/jail (not sure about the latter).
How will you determine
1)the total number of kids who have been through programs
2)the total number of preventable injuries
3)the total number of deaths- some don?t make the papers
4)the total number of cases of abuse
Without that data, you can?t compare them to anything. You obviously know the reality-- ?The data on RTC is hard to come by, I tried to gather some up (# graduated,# abused,# died, # doing well, # doing poorly etc) but no studies have been done.?
So how do you propose to collect the data? That?s the primary reason I see this as a moot issue. A waste of time.
Are you aware of this Risk Assessment of Wilderness Programs?
http://www.strugglingteens.com/opinion/ ... ident.html (http://www.strugglingteens.com/opinion/OBHICincident.html)
Excerpts:
The Hartford Courant, in an excellent series on deaths from restraints, was able to locate only two states that kept figures on fatalities in state-licensed and state-operated programs. [And we know that many (most?) RTCs and Wilderness programs are not licensed.] I had trouble believing this, so checked it out in my own small, responsible and fairly well organized state, Oregon. Sure enough, no one could tell me; the data simply are not centrally reported anywhere in Oregon, nor even tracked by particular agencies for their own clients. Based on the two states (one was New York) that do track fatalities, a statistician hired by the Courant extrapolated an estimate of 50 to 250 residential treatment deaths nationally per year from restraints alone.
For parents and referral sources, perhaps the best risk comparison is with the risks a child runs while living at home. Comparable injury data are hard to come by, but there are good national statistics on fatality rates by age and cause. The overall injury fatality rate for white 15 to 19 year olds is 54.4 per 100,000 population per year, which translates to 0.0015 per 1,000 days, or 1.5 deaths in 1 million days (National Center for Injury Prevention and Control, 1999.) This means that if you have an average adolescent living in your home, their risk of having a fatal accident is about 80 percent what it would be if they were in a NOLS program or, as well as we can estimate, an OBHIC wilderness treatment program.
Based on OBHIC's 1998 data, if one child were to spend 1,000 days in the field with an OBHIC program, a little less than three years, he or she could expect to be injured a little more than once, be ill enough to have to skip daily activities for a full day a little less than once, and would be taken to a doctor's office or hospital for treatment of an injury or illness a little more than once. [And deaths???] As a parent who has so far survived three adolescents (one to go!), this rate feels to me like about what we've dealt with given healthy, very active kids. From a program perspective, a 50-day program with 7 adolescents in a group could expect a group to have about one injury, one illness, and one evacuation every third 50-day outing.
Here?s a bit of irony. Cooley had three deaths at his facility after this assessment was released, May 2002- Mar 2003.
?One injury, one illness, one evacuation every third 50-day outing?, but 3 deaths in less than twelve months?
There?s also the 2001 ST survey http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#56579 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=6205&forum=9&start=0#56579) that shows they are best at what any lock-down would be successful at.
And this one on PCS http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... een01.html (http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives/1990/4/seen01.html) that basically states the same.
One big question? if these places are largely 'successful' due to a controlled, structured environment, why can?t parents provide that at home and save their kid the abuses inherent to life in a program?
Here?s one that compares kids who were placed with those who stayed home. http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=903&forum=9 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=903&forum=9) Almost two-thirds (63%) of the children who stayed with their families showed a reduction of clinical symptoms for AD/HD, general anxiety and depression. Only 11% of the children who participated in the residential program showed similar improvement. One year later, children who stayed at home were less anxious, less depressed and showed fewer symptoms of AD/HD than those who had been enrolled in the 5 day a week residential program.
I think the pertinent questions are: What methods are being employed and are they ethical and desirable. Does the ends justify the means? And here are a few articles on the ills of BM.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... &forum=9&0 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=9118&forum=9&0) http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#46691 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=5277&forum=11&start=0#46691) http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=2745&forum=9 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=2745&forum=9)
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#79171 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=8025&forum=9&start=0#79171) http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... &forum=9&1 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=3362&forum=9&1) http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=20#49825 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=5516&forum=9&start=20#49825) http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=10#63727 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=6851&forum=9&start=10#63727)
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#53071 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=5864&forum=9&start=0#53071) http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#56606 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=6211&forum=9&start=0#56606) http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#53849 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=5950&forum=9&start=0#53849) http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#63964 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=6868&forum=9&start=0#63964)
It?s no secret that they need more oversight and monitoring, for what good that might provide. The GAO and Office of Inspector General are in your corner. The issue, why isn?t it being done? And would it actually keep kids safe from potential abuse, injury, death, brainwashing?
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#84826 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=8471&forum=9&start=0#84826) http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=0#120163 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=11035&forum=37&start=0#120163) http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#84989 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=8487&forum=9&start=0#84989)
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And while we're comparing...
I like to imagine what our country would be like if all children could have this kind of 'education'
http://www.houstonsudbury.org/about.php#adayinthelife (http://www.houstonsudbury.org/about.php#adayinthelife)
For those near south Tx, John Taylor Gatto will be giving a lecture there on 14 Jan
Topic: "The Trapped Flea Principle and Other Weapons of Mass Instruction"
Soooo Gatto
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On 2005-12-08 19:47:00, Deborah wrote:
"Ginger, thanks for the reminder of how similar RTCs actually are to PSs.
Comparing RTCs to PSs is like comparing Abu Garib to jail.
PSs don?t house kids 24/7 and are not in the business of ?treating? so-called ?mental disorders? (yet, anyway).
Wouldn?t it be more accurate to compare them to other lock-down institutions, say like juvie or jail or other out-patient interventions?
What percentage of kids are dx?d with PTSD or have recurrent nightmares or require therapy upon graduation from public school, juvie, or RTCs?
RTCs are considered and sold as intervention- providing ?therapy? and a controlled environment to keep kids safe.
Where you might see take-downs on a very rare occasion in PSs, it is standard practice in RTCs and probably in juvie/jail (not sure about the latter).
How will you determine
1)the total number of kids who have been through programs
2)the total number of preventable injuries
3)the total number of deaths- some don?t make the papers
4)the total number of cases of abuse
Without that data, you can?t compare them to anything. You obviously know the reality-- ?The data on RTC is hard to come by, I tried to gather some up (# graduated,# abused,# died, # doing well, # doing poorly etc) but no studies have been done.?
So how do you propose to collect the data? That?s the primary reason I see this as a moot issue. A waste of time.
Are you aware of this Risk Assessment of Wilderness Programs?
http://www.strugglingteens.com/opinion/ ... ident.html (http://www.strugglingteens.com/opinion/OBHICincident.html)
Excerpts:
The Hartford Courant, in an excellent series on deaths from restraints, was able to locate only two states that kept figures on fatalities in state-licensed and state-operated programs. [And we know that many (most?) RTCs and Wilderness programs are not licensed.] I had trouble believing this, so checked it out in my own small, responsible and fairly well organized state, Oregon. Sure enough, no one could tell me; the data simply are not centrally reported anywhere in Oregon, nor even tracked by particular agencies for their own clients. Based on the two states (one was New York) that do track fatalities, a statistician hired by the Courant extrapolated an estimate of 50 to 250 residential treatment deaths nationally per year from restraints alone.
For parents and referral sources, perhaps the best risk comparison is with the risks a child runs while living at home. Comparable injury data are hard to come by, but there are good national statistics on fatality rates by age and cause. The overall injury fatality rate for white 15 to 19 year olds is 54.4 per 100,000 population per year, which translates to 0.0015 per 1,000 days, or 1.5 deaths in 1 million days (National Center for Injury Prevention and Control, 1999.) This means that if you have an average adolescent living in your home, their risk of having a fatal accident is about 80 percent what it would be if they were in a NOLS program or, as well as we can estimate, an OBHIC wilderness treatment program.
Based on OBHIC's 1998 data, if one child were to spend 1,000 days in the field with an OBHIC program, a little less than three years, he or she could expect to be injured a little more than once, be ill enough to have to skip daily activities for a full day a little less than once, and would be taken to a doctor's office or hospital for treatment of an injury or illness a little more than once. [And deaths???] As a parent who has so far survived three adolescents (one to go!), this rate feels to me like about what we've dealt with given healthy, very active kids. From a program perspective, a 50-day program with 7 adolescents in a group could expect a group to have about one injury, one illness, and one evacuation every third 50-day outing.
Here?s a bit of irony. Cooley had three deaths at his facility after this assessment was released, May 2002- Mar 2003.
?One injury, one illness, one evacuation every third 50-day outing?, but 3 deaths in less than twelve months?
There?s also the 2001 ST survey http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#56579 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=6205&forum=9&start=0#56579) that shows they are best at what any lock-down would be successful at.
And this one on PCS http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives ... een01.html (http://www.strugglingteens.com/archives/1990/4/seen01.html) that basically states the same.
One big question? if these places are largely 'successful' due to a controlled, structured environment, why can?t parents provide that at home and save their kid the abuses inherent to life in a program?
Here?s one that compares kids who were placed with those who stayed home. http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=903&forum=9 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=903&forum=9) Almost two-thirds (63%) of the children who stayed with their families showed a reduction of clinical symptoms for AD/HD, general anxiety and depression. Only 11% of the children who participated in the residential program showed similar improvement. One year later, children who stayed at home were less anxious, less depressed and showed fewer symptoms of AD/HD than those who had been enrolled in the 5 day a week residential program.
I think the pertinent questions are: What methods are being employed and are they ethical and desirable. Does the ends justify the means? And here are a few articles on the ills of BM.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... &forum=9&0 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=9118&forum=9&0) http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#46691 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=5277&forum=11&start=0#46691) http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=2745&forum=9 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=2745&forum=9)
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#79171 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=8025&forum=9&start=0#79171) http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... &forum=9&1 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=3362&forum=9&1) http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=20#49825 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=5516&forum=9&start=20#49825) http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=10#63727 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=6851&forum=9&start=10#63727)
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#53071 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=5864&forum=9&start=0#53071) http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#56606 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=6211&forum=9&start=0#56606) http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#53849 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=5950&forum=9&start=0#53849) http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#63964 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=6868&forum=9&start=0#63964)
It?s no secret that they need more oversight and monitoring, for what good that might provide. The GAO and Office of Inspector General are in your corner. The issue, why isn?t it being done? And would it actually keep kids safe from potential abuse, injury, death, brainwashing?
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#84826 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=8471&forum=9&start=0#84826) http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=0#120163 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=11035&forum=37&start=0#120163) http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#84989 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=8487&forum=9&start=0#84989)
"
Wow - great data research -- So it looks like the kids are no more or less safe in a wilderness program than if they stayed home (as far as injury or death). The RTC do a less effective job at treating disorders AD/HD etc.
So if I had a kid that had a Diagnosed disorder of some type One probably wouldnt want to send them to a RTC.
I think the 3 deaths in 1 year is a bit odd for one facility and if that continued it certainly should be looked at.
Thanks, Deborah, for the links, I will like spending some time going thru them.
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Famjaztique,
This is just a hunch, but what do you think of these folks? http://www.sudval.org/ (http://www.sudval.org/)
All I know about them is that John Taylor Gatto, with whom I'm quite impressed, has been impressed by them and what they say about themselves in their website. So I don't have any basis to say yes, this is good and safe and just right for your kid (who, of course, I've never met either). But I would be interested in your take on the concept and, if you visit or actually send your son there, how it all turns out.
If triangles had a God, He'd have three sides.
--Old Yiddish proverb
_________________
Drug war POW
Straight, Sarasota
`80 - `82
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Antigen,
I did look it up last night actually and it looked pretty decent. And I'm a huge fan of John Taylor Gatto. I was introduced to him years ago.
I don't know if it would work for my son or not. I am honestly mystified about what is going on with him and am anxiously awaiting the neuropsych. It's like he can't control any impulse whatsoever. It is very hard to explain here, you would have to spend time with him to get a sense of it. He is an incredibly unique kid and draws a lot of attention from adults who either love him right away or despise him right away.
Early this morning he took off again! I know that he was seen this morning with the same kid who has run from foster care. His friend tried covering for them but didn't do a very good job. I am waiting for my daughter to get picked up then I'm going over there. It's a very weird situation. I don't think he intends to run away...he didn't take anything with him, we didn't have a fight, he was telling me what he wanted for Christmas....yet at the same time, he keeps sneaking out and taking off with this kid. I don't get it. He even gives me information that always leads me to where they are. He comes home willingly every time, and then as soon as I turn my back he sneaks out again!
This has been going on for about a week now! Very strange behavior. He's been refusing to go to school, has walked out of school. I've been missing work, and have gotten extensions in all of my classes in order to offer more intensified supervision. Where I felt "at my wits end" a week ago, I now feel completely stumped! I get that teens rebel etc, but most know how much they can get away with, or still stay within some range of norm. I.E. they know they still have to go to school. My son doesn't seem to care about any aspect of authority or normality, yet at the same time, like I said, when I find him, he comes home willingly, talks to me (and he could be feeding me a line of BS for all I know), I make clear the consequences for sneaking out and he agrees and then the next second that I'm not looking he takes off. ????????
I should probably be on a different forum, but I think the reason I prefer this one is because many of you were that same teen. I rebelled too, but when I got caught, I would give it a rest for a while, you know?
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On 2005-12-09 09:31:00, Antigen wrote:
"Famjaztique,
This is just a hunch, but what do you think of these folks? http://www.sudval.org/ (http://www.sudval.org/)
All I know about them is that John Taylor Gatto, with whom I'm quite impressed, has been impressed by them and what they say about themselves in their website. So I don't have any basis to say yes, this is good and safe and just right for your kid (who, of course, I've never met either). But I would be interested in your take on the concept and, if you visit or actually send your son there, how it all turns out.
If triangles had a God, He'd have three sides.
--Old Yiddish proverb
_________________
Drug war POW
Straight, Sarasota
`80 - `82"
Great school and a good concept. I toured Sudbury Valley a few years ago and it seems to be a good fit for kids who dont do well (for whatever reason) in a class room environment. There is tons of freedom, you can sign up for classes and work at your own pace towards college prep or G,E.D. first. You can just hang out and play guitar if you want to some days, but you must stay on campus. Lots to do, books everywhere,plenty of people to talk to etc.
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Famjaztique,
Is there a compromise that could be worked out? Teens are very social typically. He also may feel some empathy or need to be with the boy, to provide some companionship, if he feels bad about the boy's situation. If that's the case, you wouldn't want to punish his demonstration of caring.
The way I'd approach it is to tell him that I didn't want the role of policing his activities but needed to have some mutual agreements with him. Then ask if we could work out a schedule which included some social time with the boy (preferably at our house) along with some self-study, personal chores, etc.
You know what he doesn't want. Do you know or does he know what he wants? What excites him.
How about asking him to do a report which would require some research and thought about his future. He could explore what kind of lifestyle he desires and how much income he'll need to support it. The cost of housing, utilities, food, etc. Check internet and local newpaper. What work would he enjoy doing. This in itself could take weeks if you take him to the career counseling center at the college. Thousands of jobs to look through. What level of education is required, etc, etc.
I'm guessing that he's just trying to get his 'needs' met which appear to be in conflict with your's. And could benefit from discovering his passions.
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I had had such a conversation with him and thought we had come to a mutual agreement. It wasn't a few hours later when he took off and he is still missing. There is a whole group of kids that are covering for this one kid. He has now been gone (my son) since last night with no contact. I've notified police, all other parents that I know of, and have toured the town, made visits to his friends houses, and went to the local mall and all other hangouts. He was last seen this morning with the kid. I have given him every choice to make decisions with me. And I know he does feel empathy towards this kid who has run away, but he isn't going about it even remotely responsibly.
And don't forget that we live in an age where parents are held responsible for their kids behavior. Even on this forum! So I could very well be looking at DSS invading our home because of his actions. And because I think he might have an emotional disorder that has not yet been uncovered, I am extremely worried what he would do in a foster care or juvenile situation.
When I started looking into RTC's, which is how I landed here, I was hoping to find something that would provide very tight structure with a therapeutic element. He's refusing to see his therapist, who he LIKES, refusing to try medications, and refusing to enter into compromises with me. He is rapidly removing all of our choices. I could take the stance that he just needs to outgrow the phase...well that didn't happen with his father. I could try more freedom....already done it. I could try policing him...doesn't work. He waits for the first moment he knows that I'm busy, i.e. HAVE to go to work or class eventually, and need to care for his sister as well. Grounding doesn't work. I've offered alternative schools of his choosing, including homeschooling, which he is clearly blowing off by taking off.
This is where parents get desparate. And I am.
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I want to try and give you a word of encouragement.
Both my kids were frequent run aways.
I know the fear - the overwhelming anxiety involved with a run away situation. And yes, its true there are real reasons for anxiety. However - these kids are usually fine.
Like your son, my daughter has some emotional issues. I had many of the same concerns you have with your son. When my girl took off - she really took off. She once left school and took off with the rainbow people (a cross between gypsies and hippies) and lived for a couple months in the national forest in Illinois - I think it was.
Another time, she actually ran off with the circus.
Turned up in Mississippi.
Another time, she left for a "job" painting murals in New York, and instead ended up in Arizona. Lived for awhile in a abandoned buss.
All of these episodes where heart stopping for me. I have spent entire months crying - just not able to stop.
But she is fine. Never came to any real harm at all. Once she got to a point where no one was chasing her to bring her home - she quite running off.
My son was a little different. He never left the neighborhood. I knew exactly were he was. But the people there lied to me and the cops were useless.
It made me angry, but I wasn't as worried. Not that there weren't reasons for worry - there were - but it helped knowing, more or less, were he was.
Nothing made much difference with my daughter.
With my son, there were some things that might have helped.
I got good results on one occasion, by making a wanted poster - I took his school picture and scanned it and printed out a bunch of "posters" - If seen, call JCPD - listed the case number the cops gave me, and the cops phone number. I put them up in all his hang outs spots. The pizza hutt, the KFC, and so on. He was home before I was. Ran home in the pouring rain, just as soon as the first one was posted. The "network" gave him a heads up, I guess.
Another time, at the holidays, I used a present he wanted badly to manipulate him. Told the girl whose house he was at, if he didn't get his ass home, it was going back to the store. On that occasion, I had it set up with YMCA's shelter house for him to go there. And That might be an option to consider. They really do have a good sort of situation set up. They provide food and shelter free of charge to the kid; but the kid has to attend school or take GED classes - and they have to attend counseling with therapist provided by the Y - also free of charge. If its an older kid who doesn't want to return home, they work on independent living skills. If a younger teen, or one who wants to go home, they work on helping the family figure out ways to get along - family counseling.
If this sounds like something that might help, just call your local YMCA and ask about their shelter house program. If they are in your area - your son can access them by going into any designated "safe place" and calling them. They will go get him. This can help if you have a kid who will not go near the parents.
If you decide you really need to look into an RTC, then look at ISAC's site, and read over their warning signs - so you'll have a better idea how to evaluate the various choices.
http://www.ISACcorp.org (http://www.ISACcorp.org)
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Desperate MOM,
Ive been where you are .We went the RTC route and it was the biggest mistake. If I could do it over and difeerntly I would tell the kid to go if he wants to.
The moment he knows you are not going tobe worrying yourself over his decision ,he may get it. Some times it takes maturing . i know this is a scary concept to detach and allow the kid to do as he wants(not in your house)hell be back.Sooner than you realize. Stop worrying and hell be ok.
I wish more than I can say I had just let my son do as he thought he wanted to do.He would have been fine. He was seriously hurt in the "school" went sent him to for "HELP."
Try Alonon they help you learn to detach with love. I've seen it work with parnets whose kids were using substances and they were worried to desperation. Dont do any thing really, really dumb.
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Can't legally let the kid go unless he is 17. Before that parents are liable for any and all criminal activity and can be charged for the crimes or abandonment.
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On 2005-12-10 06:30:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Can't legally let the kid go unless he is 17. Before that parents are liable for any and all criminal activity and can be charged for the crimes or abandonment."
Well you better lock them up fast, before YOU get in trouble! :roll:
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On 2005-12-09 13:44:00, famjaztique wrote:
"I had had such a conversation with him and thought we had come to a mutual agreement. It wasn't a few hours later when he took off and he is still missing. There is a whole group of kids that are covering for this one kid. He has now been gone (my son) since last night with no contact. I've notified police, all other parents that I know of, and have toured the town, made visits to his friends houses, and went to the local mall and all other hangouts. He was last seen this morning with the kid. I have given him every choice to make decisions with me. And I know he does feel empathy towards this kid who has run away, but he isn't going about it even remotely responsibly.
And don't forget that we live in an age where parents are held responsible for their kids behavior. Even on this forum! So I could very well be looking at DSS invading our home because of his actions. And because I think he might have an emotional disorder that has not yet been uncovered, I am extremely worried what he would do in a foster care or juvenile situation.
When I started looking into RTC's, which is how I landed here, I was hoping to find something that would provide very tight structure with a therapeutic element. He's refusing to see his therapist, who he LIKES, refusing to try medications, and refusing to enter into compromises with me. He is rapidly removing all of our choices. I could take the stance that he just needs to outgrow the phase...well that didn't happen with his father. I could try more freedom....already done it. I could try policing him...doesn't work. He waits for the first moment he knows that I'm busy, i.e. HAVE to go to work or class eventually, and need to care for his sister as well. Grounding doesn't work. I've offered alternative schools of his choosing, including homeschooling, which he is clearly blowing off by taking off.
This is where parents get desparate. And I am."
Based on all of your posts in this topic, one thing is obvious. In spite of your son's behavior, you are still very much a valued part of his life. You are providing his anchor and safety net through all of this. In fact, you are apparently the only anchor and safety net he has. His father is not present and you have not mentioned any extended family involvement.
Keep in mind that if you send him to a facility that limits or prevents his contact with you, you be removing the only solid adult in his life and the only solid thing he has left to stand on. Such an act would be traumatic and could damage his ability to trust and relate to other people for the rest of his life. I would imagine he is not happy to have one parent absence himself. I cannot imagine how removing the other one (even temporarily) could possibly help.
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Your so right Atomic Ant - but from my experience, I can suggest what a parent with a run away is most concerned with is keeping them safe - keeping them alive. When you are living in fear of what might happen to your kid who is out in the "wilderness" you just feel desperate to get them in a situation where they can't run off. Home isn't it. But still, you are right, and your advice is sound, and if this mom does decide she needs an RTC - I hope it will be one close to home and that she will be visiting very frequently.
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On 2005-12-09 10:02:00, famjaztique wrote:
I should probably be on a different forum, but I think the reason I prefer this one is because many of you were that same teen. I rebelled too, but when I got caught, I would give it a rest for a while, you know?
:rofl: :rofl: Yes! That probably would have been me if I had stayed in public school. Maybe not. Maybe there would have been some adult on campus who I deemed worthy of my respect; who honored their agreements and who was not so arrogant as to continually and sorely tempt me to knock them down a peg. Just guessing, of course, but for the sake of argument, let's entertain (w/o accepting) the notion that your son does think quite a lot like I did when I was around the same age.
My mother (who was raised Catholic in a German neighborhood--hearing things like "raising children is like training dogs--discipline, discipline, discipline!) simply could not understand my strange behavior. For example, I'd study hard in one class, even though the teacher was a strict disciplinarian and the course work didn't come easy to me. And I'd be proud of achieving a low B from good old Feisty Jim Meisty. Next hour, I had Mr. Doctor, who I'd swear was overdosed on Thorazine or something. And I'd flat refuse to do anything but constantly punk him out and humiliate him. Then there was the other idiot, who week after week, never noticed that I'd casually stood up and walked out w/ the Student Council till I was halfway down the hallway.
The mysterious secret? Seemed obvious to me then and still does, but it was absolutely beyound some adults' understanding or my ability to articulate. Some adults earned and returned my respect, others were just power trippin little tin gods who thought we owed them respect just for their having sucked wind for a certain number of years.
Sounds to me asif your son respects you (most of the time) but, perversely (these days, anyway) doesn't automatically defer to any arbitrary rules or arrangements. And maybe he just loves this friend and would rather spend time w/ them than w/ whomever he finds himself with at any given moment?
I dunno, it's all speculation from my standpoint. Just food for thought.
science is the record of dead religions.
--Oscar Wilde
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my name is Beth Cooper and I was brutally abused at high impact, Tecate, Mexico. I am a victim trying to seek justice and people whom have been through it with me.
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On 2005-12-01 09:07:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Why don't you guys just get a life and fight for a real cause! You can sit on here and cry your eyes out each and everyday about how poorly you were treated in the program, and how the abused you, but it will do no good! Why?! Because there are thousands of people just like myself who are living witnesses of the goodness and change created in the programs! I graduated nearly 6 years ago, and I will forever stand as a witness against the false testimony of those who claim that the programs are abusive! Perhaps there have been those staff who have abused their power, and even crossed the line, but how many teachers and administrators in the public school system, or in the federal prison system of been guilty or equally or even more grievous crimes?! Perhaps we should then just shut down all of the schools in prisons in the world because of those employees who have crossed the line. Wake up and face the facts here people, every year hundreds of teens lives are saved, hundreds of families are restored, and hundreds of parents can sleep at night knowing that their children are safe. There are those of you, and you are certainly the minority that have claimed to have been seriously physically abused while in the program, if it true that pursue legal action, I have yet to seem many people try. You claim that the program is bullet proof because of contracts or such, while in reality the widespread abuse is just a work of fiction created by lying manipulating teenagers who were menaces before the program and now continue to be just that!
Proudgrad
SCL graduate 1999
"
You know, that post reads an awful lot like this one:
Post URL: http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=0#116027 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=10814&forum=44&start=0#116027)
Why do you keep starting threads designed to get a negative response? You are obviously not interested in a real discussion, you come here to disrupt and should be treated as such. You are a long-term fornits troll, get a life.
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I guess your the lucky one