Fornits
General Interest => Open Free for All => Topic started by: BuzzKill on November 02, 2005, 03:12:00 PM
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Sunday, October 9, 2005
A hoax most cruel
By Andrew Wolfson
[email protected] (http://mailto:[email protected])
The Courier-Journal
A teenager who was strip-searched in April 2004 at the Mount Washington McDonald's where she worked is objecting to terms of the plea bargain struck for the man who admitted sexually humiliating her.
As part of the agreement, Walter Nix Jr., 43, pleaded guilty last month to unlawful imprisonment and sexual misconduct, and was to be sentenced today in Bullitt Circuit Court to one year's probation under those charges.
But Louise Ogborn, 19, who was forced to sodomize Nix as part of telephone hoax at the store on April 9, 2004, objects to portions of the deal that allowed him to deny wrongdoing and to avoid registering as a sex offender, according to lawyers for both sides.
"The deal will not go through," said William C. Boone Jr., Ogborn's co-counsel.
Nix's lawyer, Kathleen Schmidt, said she will ask Judge Tom Waller to enforce the plea agreement today. If he doesn't, Nix will have the option of withdrawing his plea and going to trial, or accepting an agreement with harsher terms. Nix had been charged with sodomy and assault, which carry penalties of up to 20 years in prison.
Commonwealth's Attorney Mike Mann declined to comment on whether a new deal has been worked out, but he confirmed that Ogborn and her family expressed misgivings about the plea agreement when he met with them Saturday.
Steven Yater, Ogborn's other lawyer, acknowledged in an interview that he and Boone failed to tell their client about some terms of the agreement, including one that allowed Nix to enter an Alford plea, in which he maintained his innocence but admitted there was enough evidence to convict him.
Nix has claimed he was duped into humiliating Ogborn by a man who called the McDonald's pretending to be a police officer investigating a theft. Nix was engaged at the time to the store's assistant manager, Donna Jean Summers, who, at the behest of the caller, had taken away Ogborn's clothes before calling Nix in to help watch the teen.
Nix has said the man on the phone ordered him to direct Ogborn to do exercises in the nude and perform oral sex on him. He said he also slapped her several times on the buttocks at the direction of the caller.
Ogborn was detained for nearly four hours in the hoax, which was one of 70 perpetrated in 32 states from 1995 through last year. A private prison guard, David N. Stewart, of Fountain, Fla., was charged in July 2004 with impersonating a police officer and soliciting sodomy in the Mount Washington case. He has pleaded not guilty and is set for trial Dec. 13.
Summers, who was fired, is charged with unlawful imprisonment, a misdemeanor, and her trial is scheduled for Dec. 7. She also has pleaded not guilty.
Although Ogborn has agreed to probation for Nix, Yater said she objects to his contention that he was just following orders.
"That is the defense made by Germans at Nuremburg," Yater said. "You could be fooled into some of the things he did, but not sodomy."
In other developments:
ABC Primetime is scheduled to broadcast a segment Nov. 10 about the Mount Washington case, according to Yater, who said Ogborn was interviewed for it last week by a producer and reporter John Quinones.
Yater said efforts failed Monday to mediate a settlement of Ogborn's civil lawsuit, in which she alleges that McDonald's failed to warn her and other employees at the company-owned Mount Washington store about previous hoaxes.
An attorney for McDonald's, W. R. "Pat" Patterson Jr., confirmed that the mediation was unsuccessful. A corporate spokesman for McDonald's, Bill Whitman, would say only that "we are open to further discussions with the plaintiff and her legal counsel."
Managers of at least 17 McDonald's stores already had been conned by the time Ogborn was strip-searched, and the company was defending itself in at least four lawsuits stemming from such hoaxes, The Courier-Journal has reported.
McDonald's has denied liability and said Ogborn should have realized that the caller was not a police officer. The company also has filed civil claims against Stewart and Nix.
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How fucking stupid does this Nix guy have to be to go on and register as a sex offender. That he's still in the state is proof that this little McSheeple is dumber than paint!
It sucks when decent, hardworking people get screwed over like that. Because that means pricks like us don?t stand a chance.
Jim S. watching the devastation of the recent tsunami on the television at JR?s
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It really is incredible isn't it?
McSheeple - thats an appt term.
But whats even more amazing - Lots of people fell for this Hoax - I just can't get over it.
How could anyone walking around be THAT stupid!?
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I thought it was interesting that the dude only had to make about 10 calls to find a sucker. That's roughly 10 times the rate of suckers you can find by phone who are willing to sign up for a free weekend timeshare sales pitch. Hmmm... could it be that authoritarianism is even more appealing than a weekend getaway?
The other thing that got me was the one girl's reaction: "This shatters your illusions" asif that's a bad thing! Not that the specific things that happened to her should be taken lightly. But come on, now! They Were Illusions! The only good to come out of this may be the shattering of illusions, damn it!
But I'm surprised you'd ask how ppl can be so dumb. Isn't this just the way the troubled parent industry works? Not that there's any way to get an objective answer, but here's a question I think is worth asking anyway. How many parents who land up in the TOUGHLOVE hategroups would ever have even faltered in their natural faith and devotion to their kids if it hadn't been for a long succession of experts constantly suggesting there might be something very wrong w/ their kid?
so long as the priest, that professional negator, slanderer and poisoner of life, is regarded as a superior type of human being, there cannot be any answer to the question: What is truth?
--Freidrich Nietzsche, German philosopher
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targeted stores in small towns and rural communities -- areas where managers were more likely to be trusting.
They must mean stupid. In all honesty, when I read this story I am not sure whether to laugh or be concerned. I am shocked at how easily people fall for this scam, and it's such an obvious scam I can't believe it worked. I don't know what to say, I am speechless, and am kind of scared there are people out there that are THAT trusting of a stranger over the phone. Unbelievable!
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/// But I'm surprised you'd ask how ppl can be so dumb. Isn't this just the way the troubled parent industry works? ///
I was waiting for this -
Yes, to a degree your right. But there are important differences here, that justify my amazement.
The managers are not under the kind of duress and stress the parents are, and so should be thinking more clearly/rationally.
Anyone who lives in America knows how the police force operates.
Very few people understand how the trouble teen industry operates.
The managers are responding to a stranger on the phone, who called them an suggested outrageous and illegal actions ; rather than a stranger they have called, hoping for help, and found helpful.
I believe most of the parents would not so easily go along with the helpful strangers, IF the helpful strangers told the truth about how the teen would be treated.
This phone call hoaxer directed the abuse and these managers did it!
I do find it incredible that there were so many that fell for it.
Wouldn't you think, any person with a lick of sense, would tell the "cop" on the phone, "if my employ is a thief, then come and arrest her." Wouldn't you think such suggestions as this "cop" made, would be met with the declaration, "Not my job, man." I betcha they make that clear when its time to clean out the fryer, and pick up the parking lot.
But what really seems beyond belief is that anyone would think a cop would have the victim/thief spanked or forced to perform a sex act! No body is THAT stupid. There is just no excuse for this - none at all.
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On 2005-11-03 13:05:00, BuzzKill wrote:
The managers are responding to a stranger on the phone, who called them an suggested outrageous and illegal actions ; rather than a stranger they have called, hoping for help, and found helpful.
Well yeah. But the conditioning starts long before you ever pick up a phone and call some stranger to straighten out your kid.
I'm sure there were actually more than 10 ppl who hung up on the freak at some point before one went along all the way. Those wouldn't make the papers. Only the cases where someone did go along to the point of doing something bizarre will make mention.
I think the writer did a good job of citing context items; the Stanford experiment, the Dr. Shock experiment. And anyone who's ever done telemarketing knows how this works. Once you get someone complying and saying yes, you just keep going. In telemarketing, no matter what you're selling, usually 1/100 will actually close at the end of the script.
But back to the troubled parent marketing comparison. Not a rhetorical question at all here. What made anyone think it was a good idea to call up some stranger for advice on how to deal with their own child? I can think of a lot of things, and I've named a few in earlier conversations. So they say they're experts, and I guess you assume they're as expert as the schoolpeople; maybe more. But you know very well that most schoolpeople are just people who couldn't make it in the adult world. But they're experts, they're authority figures. And I bet they'd been working on you for years to get you to doubt your kid's mental health or whatever and your own ability to deal.
Think about it. That is an insane idea on the face of it, and yet people do it every damned day. I wonder what their closing rates are?
All religions have been made by men.
--Napoleon Bonaparte, French emperor
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Programming aside, I find this simply amazing that anyone would fall for such a hoax. But then, I find it simply amazing that people fall for the Nigerian money transfer scam on the Internet.
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Me too - about the Nigerian scam - as well as this one. It reallly blows me away.
Ginger - your right of corse that parents are conditioned to think they are not able to raise their children with out expert, outside advice.
Still, it is often quite undeniable when a person's mental health isn't what it should be - and in such cases, a family really does need "expert" advice.
A lay-person trying to deal with a family member's mental illness, with out guidance, can make things much worse - On the other hand - so can an ignorant "expert". Thus my frequent advice to families and patients to educate themselves as much as possible - so as to be better equipped to recognize the ignorant experts.
I would say the same thing generally applies to a seriously drug abusing teen - not the recreational tokker - but the one whose life has hit the skids and who is unable to stop the wreck for themselves.
On the other hand - as you so often point out - these programs are useless, until and unless the teen or young adult feels they very much want to accept help.
But back to the articles - I too thought they were well done and well researched. I was a bit surprised to see the references you mention - but pleased.
Maybe you ought to write this reporter, and explain how all this relates to the Teen Help fiasco? Point him to the straights dot com. This paper is very liberal - and some of the stuff on there may well get this reporter's attention.
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Well, according to Poor Richard, all are queer but me and thee, and even thou art a little strange.
But yeah, I get the sense that this reporter sort of gets it, or at least senses that there's something to get and is piqued. Think I'll just go and find some more of his writings and see if I can get a better sense of where he's coming from.
A faith that cannot survive collision with the truth is not worth many regrets.
Arthur C. Clark
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Well, I've read a little of his stuff. He seems to be fascinated w/ outrageously bold criminals. Maybe he'd take an interest in Virgil.
I turned to speak to God, About the world's despair; But to make bad matters worse, I found God wasn't there.
--Robert Frost, American poet
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Back when I was a young and naive pup, I was living with a couple of roommates. On returning home one day, one of them gave me a phone message from a guy named Bill at a pizza joint from where I'd never ordered anything. Apparently the year before I had written a fraudulent check on a closed account... at a bank I never used.
Well, it still scared me. Scared me more when the following day my roomie told me that "detectives" showed up to speak to me while I was out. She let them look in my room and other areas of the house to prove I wasn't there. They informed her that they would just meet me at my place of employment then. No last names... no badge numbers... hmmmm.
When she told me they pulled up in a newish red sports car, the suspicion set in. What does a pizza delivery cost? Twenty bucks... tops? So the sheriff's office is gonna send two plainclothes cops out, Miami Vice style rather than in a black Crown Vic? I don't think so.
I was scared enough to call my boss before I headed in to work - he thought the story sounded fishy too - and assured me that if the cops were going to come pick me up over a $20.00 check, my job wasn't at risk.
A phone call to this pizza place resulted in they didn't have a "Bill" working there, and had never heard of me.
Anticlimactic ending - that was the end of it. I had the S.O. number set to speed dial on the phone for a while, kinda hoping these bozo's would show up or call, but they never did.
Over time I began to suspect a stalking by a guy I had briefly dated, but who knows. Not sure he could pull off such a ruse.
I guess the moral of the story is too many people automatically whither in the presence of perceived authority, and fail to ask the necessary questions. This is more of a threat now since everyone seems to be online and have access to more info.
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On 2005-11-06 09:24:00, Helena Handbasket wrote:
I guess the moral of the story is too many people automatically whither in the presence of perceived authority, and fail to ask the necessary questions. This is more of a threat now since everyone seems to be online and have access to more info.
Yes, and that is just so fucking dissapointing! When I split the Program, those bozos in St. Pete got a Program friendly judge to issue an extradition order to get me back on Florida soil for another kidnapping attempt. Two plain clothes detectives showed up to execute the warrant. I asked them for ID and then asked them to wait a minute while I called their office to verify it. It was legit. But I really and truely wouldn't put it past Program people (or other deranged zealots) to try and pull a scam pretending to be cops. Would you?
You would think (or at least I would think) that, given all this great access to so much information, people would start to put two and two together and be more skeptical. Instead, they seem to be going the other way, becoming more cerdulous. I give up. I'm going to retire to some lovely wooded mountainside somewhere and live off the land among the dumb, but relatively sane, animals.
People everywhere enjoy believing things that they know are not true. It spares them the ordeal of thinking for themselves and taking responsibility for what they know.
BROOKS ATKINSON (1894-1984), Once Around The Sun, 1951.
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... I give up. I'm going to retire to some lovely wooded mountainside somewhere and live off the land among the dumb, but relatively sane, animals.
I could say something here, but I won't! :grin:
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Hate to generalize, but the guy obviously knew who to target: fast food flunkies in rural communities... those people aren't exactly going to be that high up on the intelligence food chain.
It's almost hard for me to feel sorry for them, because they are so fucking stupid.
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God, Helena, that gives me the creeps. I'm glad I visit this forum. I'm one of those trusting types. Unless someone is trying to sell me something, I generally believe people are telling me the truth, even though I know for certain the world is a crazy place filled with loonies. It's just that people I know have let me down and I've had wonderful experiences with honest, caring strangers.
I guess if the check scenario happened to me, my first thought would be a case of stolen identity. Whatever the case, it would freak me out to no end that strangers pilfered my home and went through the trouble to devise this scheme. God, they could have been rapists. UGH!
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On 2005-11-07 01:44:00, sorry... try another castle wrote:
"Hate to generalize, but the guy obviously knew who to target: fast food flunkies in rural communities... those people aren't exactly going to be that high up on the intelligence food chain.
It's almost hard for me to feel sorry for them, because they are so fucking stupid.
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Sorry, I disagree with that. Many people in the fast food industry are using it as stepping stone to bigger, better things. It is a temporary job for youth or people needing a temorary income while going to school.
Yes, some managers stick around as store managers and future franchise owners, but even then, these jobs are not for dummies.
I have good friends who could not go to college who worked as managers at fast food franchises. They now own their own companies.
Still, I am totally amazed that someone would fall for this hoax for any length of time to the point of committing sexual acts. That is just plain stupid!
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On 2005-11-06 10:16:00, Antigen wrote:
"
On 2005-11-06 09:24:00, Helena Handbasket wrote:
I guess the moral of the story is too many people automatically whither in the presence of perceived authority, and fail to ask the necessary questions. This is more of a threat now since everyone seems to be online and have access to more info.
Yes, and that is just so fucking dissapointing! When I split the Program, those bozos in St. Pete got a Program friendly judge to issue an extradition order to get me back on Florida soil for another kidnapping attempt. Two plain clothes detectives showed up to execute the warrant. I asked them for ID and then asked them to wait a minute while I called their office to verify it. It was legit. But I really and truely wouldn't put it past Program people (or other deranged zealots) to try and pull a scam pretending to be cops. Would you?
You would think (or at least I would think) that, given all this great access to so much information, people would start to put two and two together and be more skeptical. Instead, they seem to be going the other way, becoming more cerdulous. I give up. I'm going to retire to some lovely wooded mountainside somewhere and live off the land among the dumb, but relatively sane, animals.
People everywhere enjoy believing things that they know are not true. It spares them the ordeal of thinking for themselves and taking responsibility for what they know.
BROOKS ATKINSON (1894-1984), Once Around The Sun, 1951.
"
Hey, I found it on the Internet. It must be true! :grin:
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One of the news magazines is going to cover this. It may be Dateline, but I'm not certain.
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//ABC Primetime is scheduled to broadcast a segment Nov. 10 about the Mount Washington case, according to Yater, who said Ogborn was interviewed for it last week by a producer and reporter John Quinones. //
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::bump::
Hey, everybody! Try and see this in as big a crowd as possible. I'm inviting a few ppl over unawares. Can't wait to find out what ppl make of the story.
The age of ignorance commenced with the Christian system.
--Thomas Paine, American revolutionary
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I just saw an ad for a bit on this story on tomorrow night's ABC PRIMETIME show. Aparently they have the strip search on tape.
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On 2005-11-07 05:16:00, Anonymous wrote:
"God, Helena, that gives me the creeps. I'm glad I visit this forum. I'm one of those trusting types. Unless someone is trying to sell me something, I generally believe people are telling me the truth, even though I know for certain the world is a crazy place filled with loonies. It's just that people I know have let me down and I've had wonderful experiences with honest, caring strangers.
I guess if the check scenario happened to me, my first thought would be a case of stolen identity. Whatever the case, it would freak me out to no end that strangers pilfered my home and went through the trouble to devise this scheme. God, they could have been rapists. UGH!"
Stolen identity never occurred to me - would it occur to you at 19? It really wasn't a publicized problem back then anyway.
But when something gives you the creeps - check it out - it just might be creepy!
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Did anybody else watch this last night?
Even after having read the articles, and so knowing what happened - I was shocked.
Somehow, seeing the tapes made it far more "real" - and I am so angry about it all.
Once again I found myself sputtering in disbelief - How can anyone be So Stupid!!??
Somehow - I feel angrier with the Supervisor than with her boyfriend - How could she possibly think that situation was OK??!! Leaving that little girl, naked, locked in an office with her boyfriend - she should be charged with - oh anything and everything that might apply.
And him??
I'd like to see him locked up like any rapist, and dam right he should have to be registered as a sex offender. That's what he is.
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Yeah. We had a friend over when it came on. Consensus was that the ditzy bitch in charge must be dumber than a post. They just couldn't understand wtf they were watching or how she behaved then or now.
The victim, though, brought a different response. Remember when that woman in SC drowned her kids and claimed some big black guy took them? Remember how so many people spotted the lie, but just kept mum? I got the same feeling from this girl. I don't think she had any part in planning the thing. But there was one very telling moment at the end of the interview. The interviewer asked "So, how long will this stay with you?" and the girl smiled, "Oh, for the rest of my life, I'm sure." That's probably true, too. And I, for one, was damned satisfied to see that, contrary to her former statements about being damaged by the shattering of her illusions, I think maybe the kid learned something valuable and powerful about human nature. Oh yeah, she's gettin' some of that Mickey D's cash. And she won't be fooled again!
Even mushroom clouds have a silver lining.
I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me.
-- Hunter S. Thompson
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Hey, did anybody watch the next show on ABC? It was interesting. It was basically a promo for a personal defense type coach. They did the segment on a highschool campus drilling kids and faculty on a school shooting scenareo. Then they critiqued it, dunning them all for blindly floowing idiotic instructions instead of thinking. Then he coached them on better ideas like looking around, getting the hell out if you can, messing w/ the bad guys any way you can; just common sense stuff.
And I've seen presentations like this about self defense coaching plenty of times before. Evidently, an entire industry is growing up around undoing the damage done by our Prussian schooling system.
Some days, I feel like I just woke up in a Johnathan Swift story.
The government is much more interested in preserving the purity of its ideology than it is in allowing patients to get effective medicine.
-- Ethan B. Russo, neurologist at Western Montana Clinic
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Me thinks that's the whole point of Jonathan Swift stories - to help us better recognize ourselves and societies strengths and weaknesses. We walk around in his stories every day :wink:
The world is full of Yahoo's and small minds - and wisdom and grace can be found in the most unexpected places.
I do agree, there seems to be a trend away from conformity and mindless obedience.
But I don't much think anything will change - not on any kind of large scale. Indiviguals will be reached, and it will make a difference in their lives - but over all, a simple fact remains - there are a lot more sheep than eagles.
* [ This Message was edited by: BuzzKill on 2005-11-12 15:47 ]
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_%28sociology%29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_%28sociology%29)
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Foucault (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Foucault)
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Keep watching and reading for updates on this story- b/c there is a whole lot more than meets the eye. To clarify- the victim was NOT told that this was a "strip-search"- she was first locked in the office with the two brutish women and then head-locked and told that if she didn't comply her parents would be going to jail for drugs, etc., etc. She KNEW it was BS but could not escape... the family HAD NO TELEPHONE!!! Much more to be told- who could imagine that something like this could happen and that it would get worse and worse? I think she is very brave- how many women are raped, assualted who are too afraid to tell???
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You are damned straight she won't be fooled again. And hopefully, she will have a whole lot of McD cash.