Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => World Wide Association of Specialty Programs and Schools (WWASPS) => Topic started by: katfish on October 16, 2005, 09:52:00 PM
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Several weeks ago, A START (Alliance for the Safe, Therapeutic and Appropriate use of Residential Treatment) sent out an announcement inviting people to attend a press conference on Capitol Hill on October 18, 2005 calling for increased protections for youth in residential programs. We have since learned that because the press conference will be held in the Capitol Building, it is necessary to provide the Capitol Building security with a list of names of those people planning on attending at least 24 hours in advance of the event. If you are planning on attending the press conference but have not r.s.v.p.'d to Allison Pinto of A START, then please contact Cheryl Johnson in Congressman George Miller's office at 202-225-7118 before 11:00 a.m. on Monday, October 17. You can also reach Cheryl Johnson at:
Committee on Education and the Workforce
U. S. House of Representatives
2181 Rayburn House Office Building
Washington, D.C. 20515
(202) 225-4527; TDD/TTY: (202) 226-3372
Allison Pinto, Ph.D.
A START
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I'm sorry I cannot be there! I just discovered this site a week ago. I would have loved to have been there. I hope you all are able to make a difference.
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Me too ! Anyone planning on attending ???
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I'll be there.
Alex Koroknay-Palicz
Executive Director
http://www.youthrights.org (http://www.youthrights.org)
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I just registered. Looks like a good site here. :b:
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Ugh, sorry, I didn't want my first posts here to be a spammy triple post, but I forgot to login last time. Sorry. Anyways, nice site, I'll be at the press conference tomorrow.
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Ugh, this thing has problems.....
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Wish I could be there. I hope ya'll will come back and us how it went.
"The Program" and two years will get you a vastly improved kid in *EXACTLY* the same way that "The Program" and four bucks will get you a cup of espresso at Starbucks.
Timoclea
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Anyone hear anything??
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//Wish I could be there.//
I wish ya coulda too Ginger - and myself as well - but what may be more important to attend are congressional hearings we all hope to see take place.
One Way or another - you must attend then :wink:
I do know a few folks in attendance, and like everyone, am waiting to hear how it went.
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I just got back from Washington! The press conference went absolutely fantastic! You guys have got to see all of the co-sponsors of "A START", it is literally almost all of the Doctors in America LOL! Obviously that is an exageration, but honestly groups such as the National Mental Health Association, National Alliance for the Mentally Ill, Child Welfare League of America, Federation of Families for Children's Mental Health, American Orthopsychiatric Association, American Association of Community Psychiatrists, and the American Psychological Association all co-sponsor this cause!!!! It is truly amazing how this is coming together... MUCH MUCH thanks is due to the acclaimed Bazelon Center for Mental Health Law and the Dept. of Child and Family Studies at University of South Florida... They made this happen and will make much more follow...
I'm extremely exhausted right now, but I posted a little bit and some links on tbfight.com... I will write a full piece on it soon...
Once again this was awesome! And the response from Ken Kay was priceless!!! (He's calling all of these people wackos and clowns!! LOL)
[Admin edit: Link to tbfight.com is http://tbfight.com/ (http://tbfight.com/) ]
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I have not posted anything lately, but I have been checking, and rechecking to see how this went!!!! I am sooooooo thrilled. I have emailed atleast 5 different media organizations today in regard to the movie Self-Medicated, and the young man Monty Lapica who directed and wrote the movie. I'm hoping that he'll be able to shed some light on all this. The movie has it's premiere at the Hollywood Film Festival this Friday 10/21 at 4:00pm. It's been getting great reviews. I've exchanged some emails with Monty, and he seems like a great guy! Smart as hell too! I totally respect him, and what he's doing. Sometimes, it takes a movie like this to get the attention of the public, and the horrors that go on behind close doors of these WWASPS schools and others like them. I'll check out the sites you posted.
:wave:
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See http://www.teenadvocatesusa.blogspot.com (http://www.teenadvocatesusa.blogspot.com)
I have posted a copy of the offical press release from Bazelon about the conference. Not sure if any parents of children who very tragically, were KILLED while participating in a wilderness therapy program (or any other kind of teen help program) were in attendance but if so, I will try to post their remarks on the blog. Unfortunately, I believe there were many people from all over the country who wanted to attend the briefing but were not notified in time to make the necessary arrangements (e.g. some got 1-2 days notice). However, the list of Gulag survivors, their parents/friends, children's rights advocates, private investigators, etc. who are planning to testify before Congress and/or attend the hearings is extensive and growing larger every day!
Barbe
TAUSA
"Adolescence is NOT a conduct disorder, it is a rite of passage".
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This a great step towards ACCOUNTABILITY among these facilities. No more under the radar operations for such programs. It seems like Ken Kay?s concerns about this are that there are now going to be actually rules and regulations to follow (something WWASP has never liked, which is why they have overseas programs).
Thank you to all who made this happen,
Former WWASP Student.
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Congress urged to help regulate boarding schools
Critic: The president of an association linked to three Utah facilities says hasty regulation would stop 'all the progress'
By Robert Gehrke
The Salt Lake Tribune
WASHINGTON - A group of mental health professionals and a former parent and student at a residential treatment facility urged Congress to pass legislation to help regulate the schools they said are abusive, harmful to the teens, and deceptively marketed to parents.
Robert Friedman, chairman of the Department of Child and Family Studies at the University of South Florida, said he has been alarmed by stories of children being mistreated at unlicensed and unaccredited facilities, and said there are no data to show the programs work.
?Some of these programs are exploiting the desperation of parents and mistreating the youth that they serve,? Friedman said. ?We don't have a shred of legitimate data on the overall long-term and short-term effects on the youth they serve.?
But Ken Kay, president of the World Wide Association of Specialty Programs, which is affiliated with a network of boarding schools, including three in Utah, said claims like Freidman's ignore the benefits of programs like his.
?These people who want to stop all the progress because they have all the answers are wackos. They are just out of control,? Kay said.
Rep. George Miller, D-Calif., has introduced legislation seeking to offer states incentives to regulate the boarding schools within their borders, but his bill has not yet had a hearing. Miller also plans to ask the Government Accountability Office to review the practices of the teen boarding schools.
Currently, a dozen states regulate their schools, said Cheryl Johnson, a staffer to Miller. In its most recent legislative session, Utah passed a bill to impose new licensing standards, although those still are being formulated.
Kathryn Whitehead said she was sent to a Montana program at age 13 after she skipped school, tried to run away and attempted suicide. She said students were forced to work and exercise for long hours, tormented by staff, and received inadequate care and little education.
Cristine Gomez sent her son to a residential facility in Montana for 16 months. She said he was isolated and given inadequate medical treatment before being sent to a companion school in Jamaica, where he complained about poor sanitation and abuse by staff. He returned home thin, traumatized and behind in school.
?In my opinion, these programs use cruel and inhuman treatment to modify behavior,? she said.
Nobody wants children abused, but opponents of the schools have not carefully thought out the impact of mandatory licensing and regulation of the facilities, Kay said.
?Where are they going to get this money and what is their plan?? asked Kay. ?What these clowns want to do is shut all these down as an option and in the meantime we don't have the proper options for everybody and they're not willing to listen.?
Kay's own chain has had problems. A school in Mexico was shut down by authorities there last year and is unlikely to reopen. Another, Ivy Ridge in New York, had to return more than $1 million to parents in August after the New York attorney general found it was distorting its academic credentials. Last year, there were allegations of abuse by staff at Majestic Ranch in Utah and one staffer pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor.
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This is fantastic news!!! I want these WWASPS exposed. I want plenty of notice the next time something major like this happens so I can be a part of it!
Former Inmate at Cross Creek Manor
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I was in Washington at the Press Briefing.
I was impressed with the concern and dedication of the Bazelon staff as well as the Astart professionals. Hope is in the air!
When I spoke ,I spoke not only for my child, for myself,but for all of the other children and parents who have been harmed by this sick industry.
I shared with the people I met the websites and the efforts of so many dedicated advocates for children and human rights.
When they have Congressional hearings on this effort, each and everyone of you all must come and be there. It was an exciting, successful afternoon. I have faith there will be more to come.
If Miller's bill can get the GOA to investigate.They will learn some intersting fACTS.
Cristine
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Hey Cristine... (It's Charles)... I just wanted to thank you for what you did tuesday, and actually for the great conversation throughout the trip... I don't know your email address or can't find it at this time, but it would be nice if you could email me ([email protected])... I was so impressed with you two parents and your speech at the conference... I feel very lucky to have been a part of it, and you are one of the main reasons... Thanks so much again
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On 2005-10-19 22:06:00, Anonymous wrote:
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I was in Washington at the Press Briefing.
I was impressed with the concern and dedication of the Bazelon staff as well as the Astart professionals. Hope is in the air!
When I spoke ,I spoke not only for my child, for myself,but for all of the other children and parents who have been harmed by this sick industry.
I shared with the people I met the websites and the efforts of so many dedicated advocates for children and human rights.
When they have Congressional hearings on this effort, each and everyone of you all must come and be there. It was an exciting, successful afternoon. I have faith there will be more to come.
If Miller's bill can get the GOA to investigate.They will learn some intersting fACTS.
Cristine
"
You aren't (or never were) a PURE parent volunteer right?
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Why do YOU ask? That's old news.
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?These people who want to stop all the progress because they have all the answers are wackos. They are just out of control,? Kay said.
Wackos?
Progress?
These educated, professional men and women are out of control?! - That's just to much - out of Your control maybe
" Nobody wants children abused, but opponents of the schools have not carefully thought out the impact of mandatory licensing and regulation of the facilities, Kay said."
Oh relax Kenny - its been thought over well enough.
If you think something important has been missed you should speak with the people working on the legislation - rather than calling them clowns and wackos!
?Where are they going to get this money and what is their plan?? asked Kay.
I have an idea - How about requiring 10% of all program owners and officer's income to go a fund to pay for the industry's oversight? If you really want to Help children, you shouldn't mind the sacrifice or the oversight. If your really about Huge profits, and warehousing teens in stark, negligent,and brutal conditions - it might be problematic enough to get you out of the business.
?What these clowns want to do is shut all these down as an option and in the meantime we don't have the proper options for everybody and they're not willing to listen.?
Creating proper options is largely what all this is about Kenny - did that get past you?
Really man - whose the Clown?
Nobodies laughing at Them!
:lol:
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On 2005-10-20 08:40:00, Anonymous wrote:
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Why do YOU ask? That's old news. "
Ya think?
:wink:
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On 2005-10-19 14:55:00, CCM girl 1989 wrote:
I have emailed atleast 5 different media organizations today in regard to the movie Self-Medicated, and the young man Monty Lapica who directed and wrote the movie. I'm hoping that he'll be able to shed some light on all this. The movie has it's premiere at the Hollywood Film Festival this Friday 10/21 at 4:00pm. It's been getting great reviews.
Ok, I'm not real familiar w/ the artsy film festival circut. How does a movie like this make it from there to the mainstream? What can we regular peasants do to help? I do have a couple of good old friends who are into that stuff. I'll be hitting them up about this and a couple of other things. Mean time, could you pose those questions to Marty and see if we can get a better understanding of how this works?
I am sick unto death of obscure English towns that exist seemingly for the sole accommodation of these so-called limerick writers -- and even sicker of their residents, all of whom suffer from physical deformities and spend their time dismembering relatives at fancy dress balls.
--Editor of the Limerick Times
(Limerick, Ireland)
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Monty had to raise money ($1 million) independently, which is no easy task.
Whatever happened to Coldwater, The Movie?
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Distributors who go to the screenings buy the movie, and distribute it to INDEPENDENT movie venues. As I understand it, Self Medicated is expected to be available in DVD format in a couple of months. It's also possible it could be bought by a television network such as Lifetime or CBS, Disney, etc. which would bring it into the homes of millions of viewers!
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On 2005-10-20 08:17:00, Anonymous wrote:
You aren't (or never were) a PURE parent volunteer right?
You first. Are you now or have you ever been affiliated w/ the Communist party?
Please, let's not go there. Every last parent who has firsthand experience w/ this industry got it by being reeled in by a slick edcon or other industry marketer. Some of those who wind up looking over this site were, indeed, taken in by the very charismatic, ambitious and successfull, Sue Scheff. Get over it already!
A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices.
-- William James
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Charles, where did you get that Ken Kay quote about BM schools? The orginal source should be forwarded to the media reporting his new "clown" and "wacko" statements!
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It was the June 17th, 2003 NY Times article that quoted it (and where I first read it)... but they got it from a 1999 Rocky Mountain News article...
Which is absolutely amazing considering his son was currently running Tranquility Bay... Here's the full quote from the article
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In a 1999 interview with The Rocky Mountain News, however, Mr. Kay, who at that time had left the Wwasps organization, criticized its programs and staff.
The staff was "a bunch of untrained people," he said, according to the newspaper. "They don't have credentials of any kind."
"We could be leading these kids to long-term problems that we don't have a clue about because we're not going about it in the proper way," he said. "How in the hell can you call yourself a behavior-modification program ? and that's one of the ways it's marketed ? when nobody has the experience to determine: Is this good, is this bad?" Link to full article : http://nospank.net/n-k52.htm (http://nospank.net/n-k52.htm)
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I would like to send that on to the Salt Lake Tribune, and maybe they could add that tidbit... but currently their website is down and I have a meeting to get to... so I'll send it off later on today...
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Sounds to me like another misquote...Ken said what???
Anyone that reads newspapers and magazines or watches news reports can see that it's all about selling stories, not about the truth. Too bad. Many reporters could make a huge impact in more positive ways than writing stories that could eventually kill teens beceause the parents believed the crap the reporters wrote and didn't get effective help.
My opinion of the ?These people who want to stop all the progress because they have all the answers are wackos. They are just out of control,? Kay said."... is: He wasn't saying that all the doctors, etc, were wackos. I read it as he was saying the ones that don't know the truth are just blindly believing reports like ISAC, or other slam sights (like this one) and not talking with even a few of the hundreds of families that had positive results. All they want to do is save their drug prescribing practices...
If they put out a message to these families, they would be happy to talk and Not the ones handpicked by Ken Kay or other program executives.
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Heres the original source of Kenny's famous quote:
http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/des ... rate.shtml (http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/desperate/site-desperate/mpg2-desperate.shtml)
Other criticism of the organization came earlier this year from a company executive shortly after he temporarily left its staff.
"These people are basically a bunch of untrained people who work for this organization," Ken Kay told the Denver Rocky Mountain News in an interview before he rejoined Teen Help as a vice president. "So they don't have credentials of any kind. ...
"We could be leading these kids to long-term problems that we don't have a clue about because we're not going about it in the proper way. ...
"How in the hell can you call yourself a behavior modification program -- and that's one of the ways it's marketed -- when nobody has the expertise to determine: Is this good, is this bad?"
If you've not read the Desperate Measure's series, you should.
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People who think that residential treatment facilities for teens should have oversight and regulation are "wackos" and "clowns?"
Are you saying these programs should continue to be unregulated, Dolphin?
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Who is fooling who?
1. The mental health industry has been shrinking (no pun intended) for decades in part due to medications and fix all drugs (Prozac etc.) which you can get from your primary MD. Do you think they want to jump in and shut everything down? No way, they want oversight, to put there controls in, do control studies, look at how many kids do well how many fail. Improve the system and create jobs for their field.
2. The government on the other hand isn?t going to get involved to shut things down either. That has never happened once (look at smoking) They want regulation they want a piece of it. They aren?t going to spend tax payers dollars to shut things down. The parents will send their kids off shore.
3. These private schools couldn?t get a loan from a bank to by a paint brush. It is all private money. The banks dont want to get involved because it is too risky, someone could sue and shut the whole school down. So once the feds regulate and put the "Good housekeeping seal" on some of these places, the banks will get loan guarantees and start lending these schools money so they can expand.
4. If the Feds guarantee the loans they are going to want the schools to accept low income kids.
5. If the feds and mental health people see a benefit after monitoring these schools for a few years BCBS and other insurers and the like will be forced to consider paying a portion if deemed necessary by a school or doctor.
6. The more schools that open the lower the price will get and the more affordable it will become for middle income families (thats the target audience) Right now there is a need but the private schools are too expensive for most.
7. Some of the lower end schools like I have heard about str8, seed etc. will probably go under and some of the higher end school will have to offer something special to stay in buisness but the majority will grow and thrive.
8. If people are mortgaging their houses and future to purchase somethign and it continues to grow the government is going to step in and try to get their shre thru regulation etc.
Do you really think all this is happening so they can shut an industry down?
How many think the teen help industry will be gone in 10 years, raise your hands....
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Nobody is saying that there isn't a place for private boarding schools... In Fact Dr. Friedman noted at the press conference that there is a need for some certain types of boarding schools... in particular, ones that have oversight and a proven and accepted by its peers program... WWASPS doesn't even come close to that... But another main point is that parents are jumping the gun with offing their kids to these places... More times than not, an approach that involves the kid's family and is not "prison" like will do wonders for a kid...
As Dr. Huffine and I discussed some of these things, he also noted that in his practice, he has an amazing success rate with kids by just meeting with them on a regular basis and talking through things (granted he is an exceptional person to talk to and probably more effective than others)... Many times kids react in the ways they do because they don't have someone to let it out with, or so many other issues that a well-trained mental health expert can remedy shortly...
I think what I just wrote might be a bit skewered..please forgive me :smile:
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Dolphin,
I have talked to many kids and parents. None had a happy,pleasant thing to say about their experience.
The ones who have happy stories are the programed parents. Their kids are sad faced. I have been looking and looking for the websites where the happy program kids are writing their stories.
Can you find one for us. Happy, glad to have gone stories.
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I don't think I know. Its you who ever you may be who is still mulling over the use to be.....
Then you didnt know you thought you did.. Get on with life I have.
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On 2005-10-20 16:04:00, Anonymous wrote:
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Dolphin,
I have talked to many kids and parents. None had a happy,pleasant thing to say about their experience.
The ones who have happy stories are the programed parents. Their kids are sad faced. I have been looking and looking for the websites where the happy program kids are writing their stories.
Can you find one for us. Happy, glad to have gone stories."
I have looked around and havent found many. Most of the active sites are people who are very passionate, excited, angry, lots of energy. Most of the kids I met are busy moving on, trying to catch up with school and some teen years they lost. I have seen a few report in on this site but their stories arent received very well here by some and others may be reading but dont want to be hammered, labled stepford kids etc, so they move on (thats just speculation on my part, putting myself in their shoes etc.)
I dont think all program parents are happy, some dont do well having their kids away for so long and then coming home grown up, graduating from High school and on to college etc. There are a lot of missed years there for some, not easy for most.
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CAN SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME WHAT THE HECK THIS IS SUPPOSED TO MEAN?????
On 2005-10-20 16:08:00, Anonymous wrote:
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I don't think I know. Its you who ever you may be who is still mulling over the use to be.....
Then you didnt know you thought you did.. Get on with life I have."
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Ya know, I used to really love dolphins..........when I was vacationing in Mexico I even swam with the dolphins!
Now, I don't like dolphins.
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On 2005-10-20 13:56:00, Dolphin wrote:
"Sounds to me like another misquote...Ken said what???
Anyone that reads newspapers and magazines or watches news reports can see that it's all about selling stories, not about the truth. Too bad. Many reporters could make a huge impact in more positive ways than writing stories that could eventually kill teens beceause the parents believed the crap the reporters wrote and didn't get effective help.
My opinion of the ?These people who want to stop all the progress because they have all the answers are wackos. They are just out of control,? Kay said."... is: He wasn't saying that all the doctors, etc, were wackos. I read it as he was saying the ones that don't know the truth are just blindly believing reports like ISAC, or other slam sights (like this one) and not talking with even a few of the hundreds of families that had positive results. All they want to do is save their drug prescribing practices...
If they put out a message to these families, they would be happy to talk and Not the ones handpicked by Ken Kay or other program executives. "
You sound like you just came from WWASPS Rebuttal site... Tell me this, what reporter recommended anything? All I've heard is the reporters repeating accounts from the kids about what they experienced at certain programs... I do not think the reporters ever said if your child is screwed up just leave him that way and let him die... no they are merely pointing out that a lot of these programs (especially wwasps) can be dangerous and that you'd better research it before you send them away... is that really too much to ask for?
As for your assumption of what "Ken" meant... So you think that all of these people sposoring this action don't know what they are talking about? You did read all the sponsors didn't you? That's an awful lot of very well respected ignorami huh? I think what so many of you supporters don't get is the fact that if one child, let alone a protracted onslaught of children, has been abused then there is a problem... Jay Kay has admitted of past abuses, and did you not read the Ken Kay quote on the other page from 99? How do you defend that one? And why the hell do you guys seem to think that this is the only damn place to send them? There are literally thousands, and yet you stick by the ones that have had all of their other over-seas facilities raided and shut down for abuse... and you really think of yourself as a parent... its so sick... everytime I think about people defending it, with full knowledge of what is going on and all the warning flags out there... its so damn sick to send your kid to one of these places anyway... jesus
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WWASPS parents are known to be the "worst of the worst". Don't expect Dolphin to react with anything but venom.
:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
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On 2005-10-20 14:11:00, BuzzKill wrote:
"Heres the original source of Kenny's famous quote:
http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/des ... rate.shtml (http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/desperate/site-desperate/mpg2-desperate.shtml)
Other criticism of the organization came earlier this year from a company executive shortly after he temporarily left its staff.
"These people are basically a bunch of untrained people who work for this organization," Ken Kay told the Denver Rocky Mountain News in an interview before he rejoined Teen Help as a vice president. "So they don't have credentials of any kind. ...
"We could be leading these kids to long-term problems that we don't have a clue about because we're not going about it in the proper way. ...
"How in the hell can you call yourself a behavior modification program -- and that's one of the ways it's marketed -- when nobody has the expertise to determine: Is this good, is this bad?"
If you've not read the Desperate Measure's series, you should.
"
What year was that written??? 1999?
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An what has changed since 99, except wwasp re-hired and promoted Kenny?
Its a very well done article and is as relevant today as it was when it was written.
Anyone with any interest in these issues should read it in its entirety.
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On 2005-10-21 15:04:00, BuzzKill wrote:
"An what has changed since 99, except wwasp re-hired and promoted Kenny?
Its a very well done article and is as relevant today as it was when it was written.
Anyone with any interest in these issues should read it in its entirety.
"
Precisely! Though I would recommend the WWASPSIE parents read it twice, just to make sure they didn't miss the fact that this organization is nothing if not HIGHLY CONTROVERSIAL.
Of course, they'd know this if their child was allowed to communicate openly and honestly with them and could TELL THEM THE TRUTH ... that Mom and Dad made a huge mistake and need to come and get them ASAP!!!!!
:smokin:
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QUOTE: You first. Are you now or have you ever been affiliated w/ the Communist party?
Please, let's not go there. Every last parent who has firsthand experience w/ this industry got it by being reeled in by a slick edcon or other industry marketer. Some of those who wind up looking over this site were, indeed, taken in by the very charismatic, ambitious and successfull, Sue Scheff. Get over it already! /////////////
I second that, Ginger!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Get over it, folks, something good is happening here. Let's enjoy the moment and those to come.
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On 2005-10-20 15:16:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Who is fooling who?
1. The mental health industry has been shrinking (no pun intended) for decades in part due to medications and fix all drugs (Prozac etc.) which you can get from your primary MD. Do you think they want to jump in and shut everything down? No way, they want oversight, to put there controls in, do control studies, look at how many kids do well how many fail. Improve the system and create jobs for their field.
2. The government on the other hand isn?t going to get involved to shut things down either. That has never happened once (look at smoking) They want regulation they want a piece of it. They aren?t going to spend tax payers dollars to shut things down. The parents will send their kids off shore.
3. These private schools couldn?t get a loan from a bank to by a paint brush. It is all private money. The banks dont want to get involved because it is too risky, someone could sue and shut the whole school down. So once the feds regulate and put the "Good housekeeping seal" on some of these places, the banks will get loan guarantees and start lending these schools money so they can expand.
4. If the Feds guarantee the loans they are going to want the schools to accept low income kids.
5. If the feds and mental health people see a benefit after monitoring these schools for a few years BCBS and other insurers and the like will be forced to consider paying a portion if deemed necessary by a school or doctor.
6. The more schools that open the lower the price will get and the more affordable it will become for middle income families (thats the target audience) Right now there is a need but the private schools are too expensive for most.
7. Some of the lower end schools like I have heard about str8, seed etc. will probably go under and some of the higher end school will have to offer something special to stay in buisness but the majority will grow and thrive.
8. If people are mortgaging their houses and future to purchase somethign and it continues to grow the government is going to step in and try to get their shre thru regulation etc.
Do you really think all this is happening so they can shut an industry down?
How many think the teen help industry will be gone in 10 years, raise your hands...."
Point 1 is patently false. Please provide some evidence. The fact is that the mental health industry is expanding with more licensed professionals than ever.
Point 3 is also false. There are some big banks attracted to the industry because of the guaranteed cash flow. Since the parents pay up front, they do not have to hassle with HMOs or insurance companies that place limits on what they will pay for and demand itemized documentation. HMOs and Insurance companies do not pay for these programs because they lack the basic billing processes and detailed accountabilty of treatments that are required. In many HMOs, a therapist is required to provide a diagnosis, a treatment plan, and outline the number of sesssions required. Once those sessions are over and the therapist/patient feel more is needed this must be justified all over again to the HMO.
Point 8. The government is not that proactive. They tend only to get involved when constituents complain loudly enough that they have no choice.
Point 2. Let's look at smoking. The courts stepped in and made it okay to sue the tobacco companies for the illness they caused. Local and state laws have pretty much banned smoking in public places (at least here in NY/NJ). There are laws against sales and advertising to minors. The taxes are so high that the price of cigarettes alone is reason enough to quit. In other words, they working pretty hard to shut down this industry.
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On 2005-10-20 13:56:00, Dolphin wrote:
"Sounds to me like another misquote...Ken said what???
Anyone that reads newspapers and magazines or watches news reports can see that it's all about selling stories, not about the truth. Too bad. Many reporters could make a huge impact in more positive ways than writing stories that could eventually kill teens beceause the parents believed the crap the reporters wrote and didn't get effective help.
My opinion of the ?These people who want to stop all the progress because they have all the answers are wackos. They are just out of control,? Kay said."... is: He wasn't saying that all the doctors, etc, were wackos. I read it as he was saying the ones that don't know the truth are just blindly believing reports like ISAC, or other slam sights (like this one) and not talking with even a few of the hundreds of families that had positive results. All they want to do is save their drug prescribing practices...
If they put out a message to these families, they would be happy to talk and Not the ones handpicked by Ken Kay or other program executives. "
He said exactly what he said. You are only making an attempt at damage control. The fact is the man lost his cool and said something stupid. He should be put into OP for that.
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On 2005-10-22 07:48:00, AtomicAnt wrote:
"
On 2005-10-20 15:16:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Who is fooling who?
1. The mental health industry has been shrinking (no pun intended) for decades in part due to medications and fix all drugs (Prozac etc.) which you can get from your primary MD. Do you think they want to jump in and shut everything down? No way, they want oversight, to put there controls in, do control studies, look at how many kids do well how many fail. Improve the system and create jobs for their field.
2. The government on the other hand isn?t going to get involved to shut things down either. That has never happened once (look at smoking) They want regulation they want a piece of it. They aren?t going to spend tax payers dollars to shut things down. The parents will send their kids off shore.
3. These private schools couldn?t get a loan from a bank to by a paint brush. It is all private money. The banks dont want to get involved because it is too risky, someone could sue and shut the whole school down. So once the feds regulate and put the "Good housekeeping seal" on some of these places, the banks will get loan guarantees and start lending these schools money so they can expand.
4. If the Feds guarantee the loans they are going to want the schools to accept low income kids.
5. If the feds and mental health people see a benefit after monitoring these schools for a few years BCBS and other insurers and the like will be forced to consider paying a portion if deemed necessary by a school or doctor.
6. The more schools that open the lower the price will get and the more affordable it will become for middle income families (thats the target audience) Right now there is a need but the private schools are too expensive for most.
7. Some of the lower end schools like I have heard about str8, seed etc. will probably go under and some of the higher end school will have to offer something special to stay in buisness but the majority will grow and thrive.
8. If people are mortgaging their houses and future to purchase somethign and it continues to grow the government is going to step in and try to get their shre thru regulation etc.
Do you really think all this is happening so they can shut an industry down?
How many think the teen help industry will be gone in 10 years, raise your hands...."
Point 1 is patently false. Please provide some evidence. The fact is that the mental health industry is expanding with more licensed professionals than ever.
Point 3 is also false. There are some big banks attracted to the industry because of the guaranteed cash flow. Since the parents pay up front, they do not have to hassle with HMOs or insurance companies that place limits on what they will pay for and demand itemized documentation. HMOs and Insurance companies do not pay for these programs because they lack the basic billing processes and detailed accountabilty of treatments that are required. In many HMOs, a therapist is required to provide a diagnosis, a treatment plan, and outline the number of sesssions required. Once those sessions are over and the therapist/patient feel more is needed this must be justified all over again to the HMO.
Point 8. The government is not that proactive. They tend only to get involved when constituents complain loudly enough that they have no choice.
Point 2. Let's look at smoking. The courts stepped in and made it okay to sue the tobacco companies for the illness they caused. Local and state laws have pretty much banned smoking in public places (at least here in NY/NJ). There are laws against sales and advertising to minors. The taxes are so high that the price of cigarettes alone is reason enough to quit. In other words, they working pretty hard to shut down this industry."
Point 2:
Yes but they have known for 40 or 50 years that it is harmful but our teens still buy them. If TBS are showing that they are ineffective or abusing children 50 years from now I would expect the same response, but it seems like a long time to react.
The response to my other points I am sorry but I dont agree.
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Point 3 Troubled Teen Industry as big business:
http://www.thinkequity.com/about/articl ... 81705.html (http://www.thinkequity.com/about/articles/nyt_081705.html)
The field began to commercialize in the mid-1990's. In 1998, the Sprout Group and Frazier Healthcare Ventures of Seattle bought the majority of Aspen, a company with a handful of programs at that time but with major plans to expand. In 2002, Warburg Pincus invested $15 million in Aspen; around the same time, the company received at least $48 million in loans from CapitalSource and Caltius Mezzanine, two companies that specialize in lending to small and midsize companies.
Investors are particularly drawn to the field because it is almost entirely supported by individual payments rather than being dependent on public financing. "I've been in the private equity business for 15 years, and I don't like to invest in companies where, with one strike of a pen, you can wipe out your business," said Nader J. Naini, a general partner with Frazier Healthcare and also the chairman of Aspen's board.
[ This Message was edited by: AtomicAnt on 2005-10-22 16:18 ]
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On 2005-10-22 16:15:00, AtomicAnt wrote:
"Point 3 Troubled Teen Industry as big business:
http://www.thinkequity.com/about/articl ... 81705.html (http://www.thinkequity.com/about/articles/nyt_081705.html)
The field began to commercialize in the mid-1990's. In 1998, the Sprout Group and Frazier Healthcare Ventures of Seattle bought the majority of Aspen, a company with a handful of programs at that time but with major plans to expand. In 2002, Warburg Pincus invested $15 million in Aspen; around the same time, the company received at least $48 million in loans from CapitalSource and Caltius Mezzanine, two companies that specialize in lending to small and midsize companies.
Investors are particularly drawn to the field because it is almost entirely supported by individual payments rather than being dependent on public financing. "I've been in the private equity business for 15 years, and I don't like to invest in companies where, with one strike of a pen, you can wipe out your business," said Nader J. Naini, a general partner with Frazier Healthcare and also the chairman of Aspen's board.
[ This Message was edited by: AtomicAnt on 2005-10-22 16:18 ]"
Yes I agree, there is plenty of money out there but they are venture capitalists not banks. You borrow money from a bank and make your payments on time no one will bother you. You get money from a venture capitalist and they want a piece of the action, one of their people on the board, attend all your meetings etc, and all of a sudden you are not in control of your own destiny, I am not saying it is a bad thing.
Its like getting a car loan from a guy who may call you up and say you cant drive your car that day because there is a big storm coming and it is too risky for him to let you, you may or may not agree but you have to comply or he may ask for his money back and if you sell you car at a profit he will want some of that too not just what you borrowed.
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Christine,
it's kat! It was so wonderful to meet you in DC, please e-mail me at [email protected]
as I don't have your contact info.
best,
kat
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Well, yeah, but it's not just that w/ the pedegree of the funding that's rollin' in this year. And aren't there some education finance companies advertising to troubled parents on various industry websites?
Art Barker had his slice of Bobby DuPont's NIDA funding as far back as the very early `70's. This was a fulfilment of his stated objective to use public funding to spread the Synanon method accross the land. You must know, at least I hope you do, the pedegree of WWASP, CEDU, the Seed and Elan's "program", right? It's a synanon. Switch out the stage dressing; warehouse, boarding school, remote rustic campsite or some other scene. What you have left is a synanon.
When that funding was cut off, following Sam Ervin's report (yes, that Sam Ervin of Watergate fame) on the Federal Role in Behavior Modification explicitly comparing The Seed to Korean POW indoctrination, why they just went below the radar for a year or two, reincorporated under a new name and proceeded to launder their federal funding through Law Enforcement Assistance Agency.
They then proceeded to hand out ambassadorships and cabinet level appointments to their cronies who founded and ran Straight, Inc. once they'd already sacrificed their firstborn to The Seed. Not just the Semblers, either. Donald Ian MacDonald was just a local pediatrician till he put his son in the Program and landed up as Federal drug czar.
Do you (and your pals) get that? You're asking the Federal Government to regulate and legislate in an area where we're the apostates. Not saying you can't win. Just that, if you intend to win, you should brush up on the other team and their players and history.
My biggest worry about this whole thing is NOT the intentions behind it. It's that ya'll are bringing a knife to a gun fight and you're already predisposed to villainies anyone who tries to tip you off.
It is the absolute right of the state to supervise the formation of public opinion.
--Joseph Goebbels
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//My biggest worry about this whole thing is NOT the intentions behind it. It's that ya'll are bringing a knife to a gun fight and you're already predisposed to villainies anyone who tries to tip you off. //
Very good point. For my part, I don't villainies you for your well placed caution. I know you have a point. Even so, I can't help but feel this recent attention from people who can not justly be called clowns and wackos is a good thing.
And of corse the government screws up everything it sticks its hand in. Even so - there needs to be some rules and some force behind the rules holding these kinds of places accountable.
Its a farce to pretend the paying customer (the parents) can or will hold the programs accountable - or have any meaningful detrimental effect on their cruelties.
Yes, the powers that be are responsible for a lot of the problem. One can hope, they may come to see they were wrong. One can hope, even if they don't give a ratt's ass, they might decide it is in their best interest to jump ship - the tide turning an all, like it is. One can hope.
To get the tide to turn, we need to educate a lot more people; for which we need a lot more media attention; for which we need such folks as have taken an interest lately - So - again - one can hope.
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I can certainly understand your point of view... I, myself, have an extremely dim view of our government... But I believe what is being asked here, is not necessarily federal oversight, but money to go to individual states so that they may have the resources to "police" these programs themselves... I understand there are many ways that things could go sour very quickly, but what other option do we really have? I mean we sit here talking about these things until we're blue... But what are we aiming for? If we aren't aiming for oversight of some sort (most likely it would have to be sponsored by a state or feds) then what are we trying to do? With the regulation comes laws... It's those "rules" that are going to need to be scrutinized... but I believe looking for oversight is really the only first step...
We can shut down all the wwasps facilities and cedu and aspen and all that... but they will pop up everyday if there aren't laws... I don't know... but I'm fully behind it, becaus ein my opinion it is the only first step...
Plus I really believe in the good nature of the people involved... and even more so, the intelligence and "know-how" that they bring to the table...
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On 2005-10-23 20:42:00, BuzzKill wrote:
To get the tide to turn, we need to educate a lot more people; for which we need a lot more media attention; for which we need such folks as have taken an interest lately - So - again - one can hope.
A-Men and A-Men! It takes a thousand voices to tell just one story.Religion is a byproduct of fear. For much of human history, it may have been a necessary evil, but why was it more evil than necessary? Isn't killing people in the name of God a pretty good definition of insanity?
--Arthur C. Clarke, author
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But I believe what is being asked here, is not necessarily federal oversight, but money to go to individual states so that they may have the resources to "police" these programs themselves.
Yeah, I am sure Utah will take its "policing" duties very seriously. :roll:
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***I believe what is being asked here, is not necessarily federal oversight, but money to go to individual states so that they may have the resources to "police" these programs themselves... I understand there are many ways that things could go sour very quickly, but what other option do we really have? I mean we sit here talking about these things until we're blue... But what are we aiming for? If we aren't aiming for oversight of some sort (most likely it would have to be sponsored by a state or feds) then what are we trying to do? With the regulation comes laws... It's those "rules" that are going to need to be scrutinized... but I believe looking for oversight is really the only first step...
Playing Devil's Advocate for a moment, the states that currently have regulations in place are not doing such a good job enforcing the rules that already exist, according to the Inspector General.
http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.ph ... 87&forum=9 (http://www.fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=8487&forum=9)
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#24989 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=3405&forum=9&start=0#24989)
All states have an ICPC office, which has the potential to stop many out-of-state placements, but are not enforcing that federal law. Why?
There are thousands of kids in programs who were placed in violation. Who will require each state to enforce and each program to comply?
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#55532 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=2265&forum=9&start=0#55532)
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... rt=0#51700 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=5722&forum=9&start=0#51700)
What is the solution to this issue? Who is going to provide oversight for Licensing, ICPC Offices, Attorney General, etal, to ensure they are doing their jobs?
To quote Ken Stettler (Utah Licensing), "we're reactive, not proactive". Each state with regulations for childcaring institutions will define which facilities require a license to operate. When a program side-steps regs by stating they are a boarding school, I feel it's the state's job to require the facility to provide documentation that would prove they are not housing teens 24/7/365 and providing 'therapy'. Do they care? Apparently not. They take the program's word for it until there is a tragedy. Then they present themselves to the public as being ignorant and/or powerless to require the facility to come under their scrutiny.
There are so many agencies along the the way that could do more to protect teens from the industry. They don't. Why? And how do you (ASTART) see that changing?
More money to states? Really? How will that money be used?
States would have an abundance of operating funds if they enforced regulations and fined the maverick programs for operating without a license. Some stating fines as high as $500 per day.
What's the 'new' consequence going to be for states that aren't doing their job? How will anyone 'force' these folks to do the right thing?
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What do you all suggest be done?
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Good question, Kat. What the hell is the answer? What can we all do to help the kids who are locked up in hell-holes as we speak? They're in there wishing we were out here doing something to help them. It's our responsiblity to figure out what the hell it is that we can do to help them. Please, if anyone has suggestions, please share them here. As Ginger pointed out, many of us have good hearts and our intentions are good. We want and need to do something to help. We want to do what will be most effective. We all need to put our heads together to figure out what we can do.
I know many of you are not in favor of the proposed legislation, that you aren't in support of what Alison Pinto is doing. So, if that's the case, what do you suggest? I thought that at least having some legislation in place would be better than what we have now.