Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Troubled Teen Industry => Topic started by: Anonymous on September 27, 2005, 10:50:00 PM
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Anybody ever heard of this program? What's it's track record (the good, bad and ugly)?
Thanks!
:smile:
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Try ISAC ... maybe they have heard of this program?
http://www.isaccorp.org (http://www.isaccorp.org)
:wave:
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http://www.intergate.com/~caaa/LET3_04.pdf (http://www.intergate.com/~caaa/LET3_04.pdf)
This past August I was privileged to travel to Havre Montana, to work at the Anchor Academy for Boys Camp (ACC) under the direction Pastor Trevor Spencer and Bro Dennis McElwrath, this ministry is a blessing for young men that have trouble with authority. Both Pastor Trevor and Bro. Dennis worked in the Roloff Ministries and saw a need for such a facility in the open fields of Montana. Located at a former AirForce Strategic Air Command Base the camp is renovating a vast number of structures.
Seventeen members of Peoples Baptist Church spent a week assisting the ministry in a variety of needs, the CAAS has provided drawings for the relocation for the existing school and the general offices. We also have over a dozen projects that will take place over the course of the next five years. The Largest is the renovation of a radar tower into a five story dormitory. Bro. David and Debby Newby , former members of PBC are on staff at this ministry. Please pray for this ministry.
_________________________________________________
It's a Baptist "Mission" relocated from Texas. It has been referred to as "Anchortraz" by some of its "clients."
Looks pretty sketchy...
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On 2005-09-28 07:06:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
"
http://www.intergate.com/~caaa/LET3_04.pdf (http://www.intergate.com/~caaa/LET3_04.pdf)
This past August I was privileged to travel to Havre Montana, to work at the Anchor Academy for Boys Camp (ACC) under the direction Pastor Trevor Spencer and Bro Dennis McElwrath, this ministry is a blessing for young men that have trouble with authority. Both Pastor Trevor and Bro. Dennis worked in the Roloff Ministries and saw a need for such a facility in the open fields of Montana. Located at a former AirForce Strategic Air Command Base the camp is renovating a vast number of structures.
Seventeen members of Peoples Baptist Church spent a week assisting the ministry in a variety of needs, the CAAS has provided drawings for the relocation for the existing school and the general offices. We also have over a dozen projects that will take place over the course of the next five years. The Largest is the renovation of a radar tower into a five story dormitory. Bro. David and Debby Newby , former members of PBC are on staff at this ministry. Please pray for this ministry.
_________________________________________________
It's a Baptist "Mission" relocated from Texas. It has been referred to as "Anchortraz" by some of its "clients."
Looks pretty sketchy...
"
OMG, Roloff?
Thanks DJ -- you are the best!
:wave:
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Filthy heritcal deviants, these are not christians, they are beasts.
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On 2005-09-28 07:06:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
"
http://www.intergate.com/~caaa/LET3_04.pdf (http://www.intergate.com/~caaa/LET3_04.pdf)
This past August I was privileged to travel to Havre Montana, to work at the Anchor Academy for Boys Camp (ACC) under the direction Pastor Trevor Spencer and Bro Dennis McElwrath, this ministry is a blessing for young men that have trouble with authority. Both Pastor Trevor and Bro. Dennis worked in the Roloff Ministries and saw a need for such a facility in the open fields of Montana. Located at a former AirForce Strategic Air Command Base the camp is renovating a vast number of structures.
Seventeen members of Peoples Baptist Church spent a week assisting the ministry in a variety of needs, the CAAS has provided drawings for the relocation for the existing school and the general offices. We also have over a dozen projects that will take place over the course of the next five years. The Largest is the renovation of a radar tower into a five story dormitory. Bro. David and Debby Newby , former members of PBC are on staff at this ministry. Please pray for this ministry.
_________________________________________________
It's a Baptist "Mission" relocated from Texas. It has been referred to as "Anchortraz" by some of its "clients."
Looks pretty sketchy...
"
Looks worse than sketcy. It's a Roloff spin-off. The Roloff homes and their spin-offs are all highly abusive programs.
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On 2005-09-28 07:40:00, Teen Advocates USA wrote:
"
On 2005-09-28 07:06:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
"
http://www.intergate.com/~caaa/LET3_04.pdf (http://www.intergate.com/~caaa/LET3_04.pdf)
This past August I was privileged to travel to Havre Montana, to work at the Anchor Academy for Boys Camp (ACC) under the direction Pastor Trevor Spencer and Bro Dennis McElwrath, this ministry is a blessing for young men that have trouble with authority. Both Pastor Trevor and Bro. Dennis worked in the Roloff Ministries and saw a need for such a facility in the open fields of Montana. Located at a former AirForce Strategic Air Command Base the camp is renovating a vast number of structures.
Seventeen members of Peoples Baptist Church spent a week assisting the ministry in a variety of needs, the CAAS has provided drawings for the relocation for the existing school and the general offices. We also have over a dozen projects that will take place over the course of the next five years. The Largest is the renovation of a radar tower into a five story dormitory. Bro. David and Debby Newby , former members of PBC are on staff at this ministry. Please pray for this ministry.
_________________________________________________
It's a Baptist "Mission" relocated from Texas. It has been referred to as "Anchortraz" by some of its "clients."
Looks pretty sketchy...
"
OMG, Roloff?
Thanks DJ -- you are the best!
:wave: "
Hey, don't thank me. I just reposted the work of a more astute forumite.
I see a lot of people ask general questions about these programs and they normally get a response like "use the search feature," etc.
Unfortunately, the folks looking for information here often know less about 'puters and the net than they know about the program about which they are inquiring, so I usually try to find something for them. Oftentimes, like today, the "heavy lifting" has been done by another and simply needs to be freshly reposted.
In any case, I'm glad that the information is useful to you...
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I have a brother that was sent to this "Academy" April of 2004.
When he was sent to Anchor Academy (A home for ?troubled? boys) my sister and I were told by my parents that he would be there for a year. My mom had decided that he needed to "get right with God" and that this was the place to make that happen. During this year my mom told me consistently that he was doing wonderful, he had ?completely changed?, and that he thinks of that place as a home. He was there for a year and four months when my mom decided that he could come back. He returned home on a Sunday in July of 2005 and that following Saturday I got a phone call and was told by my dad that my brother had been put on a plane destination Anchor Academy but had missed his second flight. My dad was calling to find out if I had seen him. My sister received the same phone call?my parents were pretty sure that we knew where he was. Not the case. My brother was missing for 3 days and then located at a mission in Montana somewhere by a staff member from Anchor ("Brother" Dennis McElwrath) and then taken back to the Academy. If this place was so ?wonderful? for him or had thought of that place as a home, he would have never run away.
The only communication possible with my brother is through my parents. Every letter sent to him must be replied to and he can only send mail to my parents address...very convenient. My parents are all for this place and it is very disturbing.
I need to find out if there is any way possible to get him out of that ?Academy? before the time he is eighteen (he is sixteen) and no longer my mother?s responsibility. If there is anyone with any information regarding this issue...it would be most appreciated.
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You could go to a court and get court order for him to have his case heard by the court. You could present information to your parents about how evil the place is. You could also go get him your self, you are his blood relation after all. I would not think the cops would stop you. And these people are christians, if they lift a physical hand against you, as a woman. I would give you permision, as a christian as well, to shoot them, because we dont need people like that in the church. Of course what I just said was a example of sarcasm to make a point that I dont like what these people reprsent. (I have to cover my ass because some of you dont get that)
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On 2005-09-28 10:44:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I have a brother that was sent to this "Academy" April of 2004.
When he was sent to Anchor Academy (A home for ?troubled? boys) my sister and I were told by my parents that he would be there for a year. My mom had decided that he needed to "get right with God" and that this was the place to make that happen. During this year my mom told me consistently that he was doing wonderful, he had ?completely changed?, and that he thinks of that place as a home. He was there for a year and four months when my mom decided that he could come back. He returned home on a Sunday in July of 2005 and that following Saturday I got a phone call and was told by my dad that my brother had been put on a plane destination Anchor Academy but had missed his second flight. My dad was calling to find out if I had seen him. My sister received the same phone call?my parents were pretty sure that we knew where he was. Not the case. My brother was missing for 3 days and then located at a mission in Montana somewhere by a staff member from Anchor ("Brother" Dennis McElwrath) and then taken back to the Academy. If this place was so ?wonderful? for him or had thought of that place as a home, he would have never run away.
The only communication possible with my brother is through my parents. Every letter sent to him must be replied to and he can only send mail to my parents address...very convenient. My parents are all for this place and it is very disturbing.
I need to find out if there is any way possible to get him out of that ?Academy? before the time he is eighteen (he is sixteen) and no longer my mother?s responsibility. If there is anyone with any information regarding this issue...it would be most appreciated.
"
It's been done before (Gini Farmer got her 12 y/o cousin out of Tranquility Bay back in 2002, against his father's wishes), but it obviously takes a lot of time, money, and a good lawyer. You didn't say if you are a minor or not-- if you are, there may not be much that you can do.
Contact ISAC (www.isaccorp.org (http://www.isaccorp.org))-- they may be able to give you some more concrete advice.
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Have you read Alexia Parks book "An American Gulag" which details her struggles trying to rescue her neice from an abusive faith-based program in the south? She did some extensive research on faith-based programs across the U.S. which might be helpful to you in terms of broadening your parent's awareness of what can and does happen in both non and faith-based programs. You can also email Ms. Parks from her website. Good luck!
http://www.teenliberty.org (http://www.teenliberty.org)
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Good point about runaways ... why run if the program is so good? Do you know if kids from this program have run away before and been subject to punishment when caught and returned? This really worries me!!!
:sad:
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If you can get a court order, it would be helpful to find former students who are willing to tell the court about their experience. If I recall correctly, that is what Gini Farmer did. She located a couple of teens from the same program who testified under oath about their care and treatment (which was abusive according to them).
Here's a link:
http://bayes.joshpurinton.com/~joshp/tr ... imony.html (http://bayes.joshpurinton.com/~joshp/tranquility-bay-testimony.html)
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I do not know. My communication with my brother has been very limited. He has said that when one boy does something deserving punishment, all sixty or so boys are punished. How I?m not sure.
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I 21...not a minor.
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On the plains of Northern Montana, a place where many describe as ?the middle of nowhere,? stands an academy for rebellious teenage boys called the Anchor Academy. The landscape is truly striking at first sight. Vast, open, and remote, the scenery supports Montana?s nickname ?Big Sky Country?. In the wintertime the temperature can drop to ?30 creating what looks like an enchanted wonderland of snow, frosted tress, icicles, and unbearably cold air.
The Anchor Academy began accepting young men in trouble, between the ages of 13-17, back in 1999. They have the capacity to keep fifty boys at a time and usually run full. The adolescents seem to struggle with every problem on earth, but by the time they leave the academy they are respectful, hardworking, and significantly different young men.
Sturdy buildings, once inhabited by military personnel manning a USAF Radar Base, dot the property owned by the Anchor Academy. From the outside these edifices show the wear of time and duty. On the inside, most of the buildings have been remodeled into a comfortable living environment. The facilities do not transmit an institutional feel but rather a family atmosphere with traces of personal touch everywhere.
The boy?s dormitory is a big open room with bunks uniformly arranged along the outside wall. The beds are all made inspection ready tight reminding one of a military barracks, except for an occasional stuffed animal neatly perched atop the blanket. In the middle of the room is a large open area where the students can lounge on comfortable couches. Against one wall is a large oak hutch displaying dozens of books, board games, and pictures of days gone by.
The Academy?s academic and living programs are highly structure, as one would expect, focusing on spiritual growth, academics, and character building. There are no guards, barbed-wire fences, or security cameras. The young men are simply given a level of trust and expected to function responsibly as a member of a team.
?We take students from all types of backgrounds? says Dennis McElwrath the director of the academy a red haired man in his late twenties with a medium build and hazel green eyes. ?Some of the young men come to us in trouble with the law, and using drugs, others are just extremely defiant toward authority. Either way, their parents are usually at their wits end when they turn to us for help.?
A first glance the students do not look like they are former troublemakers. Everyone?s hair is short and neatly parted to either the left or the right. Their shirts are usually tucked in and when they speak to an adult they will invariably address them as ?sir? or ?ma?am?.
?When we go places we get all kinds of complements,? declares Brandon, a stocky sixteen year old from Louisiana. ?People notice us because the way we are dressed and the way we talk. Most teenagers these days don?t show any respect.?
When Brandon first came to the Anchor he looked like a full-fledged gang member and even had the attitude to go along with it. ?I always knew I was missing something and tried to fill the void with drugs, rap music, and the wrong friends. I was constantly getting into trouble and my parents and the judges were getting sick and tired of seeing my face in court.?
?My parents tried everything until they heard about the Anchor. When I first got here my heart was hard as a rock but one month later during a Sunday night service I felt a heavy conviction because of my sin. I broke down in tears and cried out to God to save me. I?ll never forget that night as long as I live,? Brandon says with a convincing smile.
The Anchor Academy believes that the Bible is the instruction manual for solving life?s problems. The boys attend chapel services, memorize Scripture, and often sing at area churches and community events. The church services center on enthusiastic congregational singing and preaching. Visiting parents and area residents often participate.
?We stand strong on the biblical values this country was founded upon and we make no apologies for it!? says Dennis McElwrath. ?So many of these young men were searching for significance in their lives and we have the unique opportunity to show them the truth.?
Though the Anchor Academy is not nationally known, it has no problem finding enrollees. On average the academy receives three calls a day from parents who desperately need help for their teenage sons. Not all the boys who come to the Anchor Academy succeed, but most of them will return home and be hard working, respectful members of society.
In six years of working at the Anchor it has been my privilege to minister to hundreds of young men in need. I believe the work done at the Anchor Academy is an investment in the future. The destiny of our nation rests in the hands of today?s young people.
The Anchor Academy is a faith-based ministry of the Hi-Line Baptist Church in Havre, MT. We take troubled and at-risk boys ages 13-17 for a minimum stay of one year. The program is very structured and focuses on character building, respect for authority, hard work, establishing goals, and reconciling families. We work on changing the outside, while God works on the heart. This creates an atmosphere of tough-love discipline where the young men are taught to take responsibility for their actions.
The boys have daily Bible reading and prayer, memorize scripture, attend daily chapel services, and participate in weekly worship services. The boys are also taught to work with their hands and participate in building projects, maintenance work, upkeep on the grounds, and cleaning buildings.
We run a private Christian school that uses the ACE (Accelerated Christian Education) curriculum. Each student is given diagnostic tests to place him in the correct level of work. The curriculum is self-paced and focuses on each student?s individual needs to enable him to succeed academically. The boys attend school Monday-Friday during the regular school year, and summer school sessions are offered for students who need additional ?catch-up? work.
With so many troubled youth in our society, we are excited that young men exiting our program demonstrate a changed life. The majority will stay in school, hold down jobs, respect their parents, and become law-abiding citizens. Presently, our ministry takes 3-5 calls per day from parents hoping to get their sons into our program.
--Dennis McElwrath, Superintendent
406-394-4454
My name is McKenzie Smith, from Coos Bay, Oregon, and I'm seventeen years old. I was raised in a good home with loving parents. When I was seven, my parents got divorced; but both of my parents still supported me.
I started being rebellious when I got into junior high. I began to get involved in the wrong stuff. On June 26th, when I was sixteen, my parents sent me here to the Anchor Academy for boys. Right from the start the staff and other guys here started giving me the Gospel.
Although I grew up in church, it wasn't until I came here and saw a difference in the people, that on July 26th, the Lord convicted me and I got saved! From that point on, the Lord has given me countless blessings. He made me a leader in the dorm, I graduated from high school early, and many other wonderful things. In the future, I plan to attend college and get a degree in criminal justice with the goal of working in law enforcement.
Listen to the
Anchor Academy sing
"He Is Mine."
Anchor Academy
24247 Base Rd.
Havre, MT 59501
406-394-4454
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If you and your sister are not minors, and you can not convince your mother to remove your brother from this abusive facility (and I assure you anything connected to Roloff is abusive)--then you and your sister need to start legal proceedings to have your brother removed from Anchor Academy immediately. OR, go there and remove him yourself, and deal with the legalities, and your mother later!
You are right--your brother ran for a reason.
Perhaps you could register here under some name so you can receive Private Messages.
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On 2005-09-28 08:34:00, OverLordd wrote:
"Filthy heritcal deviants, these are not christians, they are beasts."
Geez, OL, couldn't you quit being so wishy washy? :rofl:
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On 2005-09-28 09:20:00, Anonymous wrote:
On 2005-09-28 07:06:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
"
http://www.intergate.com/~caaa/LET3_04.pdf (http://www.intergate.com/~caaa/LET3_04.pdf)
<
Looks worse than sketcy. It's a Roloff spin-off. The Roloff homes and their spin-offs are all highly abusive programs. "
This is the sort of generalization that makes you look silly, DJ. :roll:
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DJ doesn't look silly at all. He's right on the money here.
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"Brother" McElwrath, how come your fine school doesn't have a website, yet you say Anchor Academy gets 3-4 calls per day? Who refers these boys to your school?
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THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR ANSWERING TO MY POST.
I HAVE REGISTERED AND AM ABLE TO RECEIVE PRIVATE MESSAGES.
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This place is in an old Air Force base...
check out the pics.
http://www.radomes.org/museum/recent/HavreAFSMT.html (http://www.radomes.org/museum/recent/HavreAFSMT.html)
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Would your mother let your brother live with you? What's this program cost? Maybe the savings alone would convince her to let your brother live with you (or another family member)?
:???:
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On 2005-09-28 13:07:00, Anonymous wrote:
On 2005-09-28 09:20:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-09-28 07:06:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
"
http://www.intergate.com/~caaa/LET3_04.pdf (http://www.intergate.com/~caaa/LET3_04.pdf)
<
Looks worse than sketcy. It's a Roloff spin-off. The Roloff homes and their spin-offs are all highly abusive programs. "
This is the sort of generalization that makes you look silly, DJ. :idea:
Why are you more concerned with jabbing me than comprehending and understanding what you are commenting upon? That type of weakness of character will get you nowhere in life.
_________________
"Compassion is the basis of morality."
-Arnold Schopenhauer[ This Message was edited by: Dysfunction Junction on 2005-09-29 04:44 ]
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On 2005-09-28 12:55:00, Anonymous wrote:
"On the plains of Northern Montana, a place where many describe as ?the middle of nowhere,? stands an academy for rebellious teenage boys called the Anchor Academy. The landscape is truly striking at first sight. Vast, open, and remote, the scenery supports Montana?s nickname ?Big Sky Country?. In the wintertime the temperature can drop to ?30 creating what looks like an enchanted wonderland of snow, frosted tress, icicles, and unbearably cold air.
The Anchor Academy began accepting young men in trouble, between the ages of 13-17, back in 1999. They have the capacity to keep fifty boys at a time and usually run full. The adolescents seem to struggle with every problem on earth, but by the time they leave the academy they are respectful, hardworking, and significantly different young men.
Sturdy buildings, once inhabited by military personnel manning a USAF Radar Base, dot the property owned by the Anchor Academy. From the outside these edifices show the wear of time and duty. On the inside, most of the buildings have been remodeled into a comfortable living environment. The facilities do not transmit an institutional feel but rather a family atmosphere with traces of personal touch everywhere.
The boy?s dormitory is a big open room with bunks uniformly arranged along the outside wall. The beds are all made inspection ready tight reminding one of a military barracks, except for an occasional stuffed animal neatly perched atop the blanket. In the middle of the room is a large open area where the students can lounge on comfortable couches. Against one wall is a large oak hutch displaying dozens of books, board games, and pictures of days gone by.
The Academy?s academic and living programs are highly structure, as one would expect, focusing on spiritual growth, academics, and character building. There are no guards, barbed-wire fences, or security cameras. The young men are simply given a level of trust and expected to function responsibly as a member of a team.
?We take students from all types of backgrounds? says Dennis McElwrath the director of the academy a red haired man in his late twenties with a medium build and hazel green eyes. ?Some of the young men come to us in trouble with the law, and using drugs, others are just extremely defiant toward authority. Either way, their parents are usually at their wits end when they turn to us for help.?
A first glance the students do not look like they are former troublemakers. Everyone?s hair is short and neatly parted to either the left or the right. Their shirts are usually tucked in and when they speak to an adult they will invariably address them as ?sir? or ?ma?am?.
?When we go places we get all kinds of complements,? declares Brandon, a stocky sixteen year old from Louisiana. ?People notice us because the way we are dressed and the way we talk. Most teenagers these days don?t show any respect.?
When Brandon first came to the Anchor he looked like a full-fledged gang member and even had the attitude to go along with it. ?I always knew I was missing something and tried to fill the void with drugs, rap music, and the wrong friends. I was constantly getting into trouble and my parents and the judges were getting sick and tired of seeing my face in court.?
?My parents tried everything until they heard about the Anchor. When I first got here my heart was hard as a rock but one month later during a Sunday night service I felt a heavy conviction because of my sin. I broke down in tears and cried out to God to save me. I?ll never forget that night as long as I live,? Brandon says with a convincing smile.
The Anchor Academy believes that the Bible is the instruction manual for solving life?s problems. The boys attend chapel services, memorize Scripture, and often sing at area churches and community events. The church services center on enthusiastic congregational singing and preaching. Visiting parents and area residents often participate.
?We stand strong on the biblical values this country was founded upon and we make no apologies for it!? says Dennis McElwrath. ?So many of these young men were searching for significance in their lives and we have the unique opportunity to show them the truth.?
Though the Anchor Academy is not nationally known, it has no problem finding enrollees. On average the academy receives three calls a day from parents who desperately need help for their teenage sons. Not all the boys who come to the Anchor Academy succeed, but most of them will return home and be hard working, respectful members of society.
In six years of working at the Anchor it has been my privilege to minister to hundreds of young men in need. I believe the work done at the Anchor Academy is an investment in the future. The destiny of our nation rests in the hands of today?s young people.
The Anchor Academy is a faith-based ministry of the Hi-Line Baptist Church in Havre, MT. We take troubled and at-risk boys ages 13-17 for a minimum stay of one year. The program is very structured and focuses on character building, respect for authority, hard work, establishing goals, and reconciling families. We work on changing the outside, while God works on the heart. This creates an atmosphere of tough-love discipline where the young men are taught to take responsibility for their actions.
The boys have daily Bible reading and prayer, memorize scripture, attend daily chapel services, and participate in weekly worship services. The boys are also taught to work with their hands and participate in building projects, maintenance work, upkeep on the grounds, and cleaning buildings.
We run a private Christian school that uses the ACE (Accelerated Christian Education) curriculum. Each student is given diagnostic tests to place him in the correct level of work. The curriculum is self-paced and focuses on each student?s individual needs to enable him to succeed academically. The boys attend school Monday-Friday during the regular school year, and summer school sessions are offered for students who need additional ?catch-up? work.
With so many troubled youth in our society, we are excited that young men exiting our program demonstrate a changed life. The majority will stay in school, hold down jobs, respect their parents, and become law-abiding citizens. Presently, our ministry takes 3-5 calls per day from parents hoping to get their sons into our program.
--Dennis McElwrath, Superintendent
406-394-4454
My name is McKenzie Smith, from Coos Bay, Oregon, and I'm seventeen years old. I was raised in a good home with loving parents. When I was seven, my parents got divorced; but both of my parents still supported me.
I started being rebellious when I got into junior high. I began to get involved in the wrong stuff. On June 26th, when I was sixteen, my parents sent me here to the Anchor Academy for boys. Right from the start the staff and other guys here started giving me the Gospel.
Although I grew up in church, it wasn't until I came here and saw a difference in the people, that on July 26th, the Lord convicted me and I got saved! From that point on, the Lord has given me countless blessings. He made me a leader in the dorm, I graduated from high school early, and many other wonderful things. In the future, I plan to attend college and get a degree in criminal justice with the goal of working in law enforcement.
Listen to the
Anchor Academy sing
"He Is Mine."
Anchor Academy
24247 Base Rd.
Havre, MT 59501
406-394-4454
"
After reading this, Brother. It looks even more sketchy.
Items of concern:
-"Tough Love" discipline
-No Accredited Academics (what the heck is an Accelerated Christian Education anyway?)
-"Diagnostic Testing" administered by clergy
-Memorizing Scripture (why? what purpose does memorizing a book serve?)
-Kids taught to work with their hands (they're gonna need that when they "graduate" with no diploma or high school credits)
By the way, what do you charge for these "charitable" services, Brother?
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My mother has told me that she pays $1000.00 a month to send my brother to Anchor. [ This Message was edited by: CBIDWK on 2005-09-29 11:11 ]
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Geez, OL, couldn't you quit being so wishy washy?
Yeah, yeah I know. Haha, but that is a thing with me, I hate people that do things like this, I hate people that claim to do things in Gods name, sence some one posted a address, the will indeed get a letter from me berating them.
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Well, they dont have a website, I would of found it other wise.
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No website found. Wonder who sends these kids to this program? Think they work with ed cons, or just word-of-mouth referrals within the church network?
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Ancho Academy in Montana does have a website:
http://www.christiangiving.net/Anchor%20Academey.htm (http://www.christiangiving.net/Anchor%20Academey.htm).
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On 2005-09-30 06:43:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Ancho Academy in Montana does have a website:
http://www.christiangiving.net/Anchor%20Academey.htm (http://www.christiangiving.net/Anchor%20Academey.htm)."
Dead link.
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On 2005-09-30 06:43:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Ancho Academy in Montana does have a website:
http://www.christiangiving.net/Anchor%20Academey.htm (http://www.christiangiving.net/Anchor%20Academey.htm)."
Thanks Anon, but the link is malfunctioning.
Can you try again?
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From the website (just paste in your browser http://www.christiangiving.net (http://www.christiangiving.net) and click on Anchor Academy).
The Anchor Academy is a faith-based ministry of the Hi-Line Baptist Church in Havre, MT. We take troubled and at-risk boys ages 13-17 for a minimum stay of one year. The program is very structured and focuses on character building, respect for authority, hard work, establishing goals, and reconciling families. We work on changing the outside, while God works on the heart. This creates an atmosphere of tough-love discipline where the young men are taught to take responsibility for their actions.
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http://www.christiangiving.net/featured ... zation.htm (http://www.christiangiving.net/featured_nonprofit_organization.htm)
Click on the radio button for Anchor Academy.
I noticed I was only the 85th visitor to the website that covers all of their "institutions," including Anchor. This must not be the primary marketing tool...
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On 2005-09-30 06:59:00, Anonymous wrote:
"From the website (just paste in your browser http://www.christiangiving.net (http://www.christiangiving.net) and click on Anchor Academy).
The Anchor Academy is a faith-based ministry of the Hi-Line Baptist Church in Havre, MT. We take troubled and at-risk boys ages 13-17 for a minimum stay of one year. The program is very structured and focuses on character building, respect for authority, hard work, establishing goals, and reconciling families. We work on changing the outside, while God works on the heart. This creates an atmosphere of tough-love discipline where the young men are taught to take responsibility for their actions.
"
http://www.christiangiving.net/featured ... zation.htm (http://www.christiangiving.net/featured_nonprofit_organization.htm)
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Place sounds down-right scary!
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I just found this site and have read all the posts about Anchor Academy in Havre. It seems to me that you are quick to judge and slow to find out what is wrong. Why is Anchor being swept with a broad brush and being condemned based on what other organizations do? Sounds like the way they condemned Jesus...nothing good can come out of Nazareth. This isn't the dark ages and you can go and see if you really care. It seems also, that everything from the "Roloff" ministry is also painted BLACK.
While I do realize that there are some really weird stuff out there, I have never seen any abusive stuff from Anchor nor do I find anything that is hurtful or cruel to the boys. Unless, you call discipline and order and good manners and developing character cruel and hurtful.
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This would be the pastor I emailed earllyer. IT seems like you anyway, because you dont really seem to know much about the industry, and you spoke of jesus. Please, look around, read, see why I fight so hard. We have surviors from some of the worst walks of life here, all will tell you about what evils happened to them in the name of God and "fixing" them.[ This Message was edited by: OverLordd on 2005-10-02 18:39 ]
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Yes, I am the one. I don't disagree, but let's not write everything and everyone off that is doing a good work. I challenge you and others to find the evidence that you are saying exists, but I don't see or don't know any evidence. It is easy to throw around accusations without proof. If there is proof of Anchor Academy doing wrong or having abuse, then I will join your endeavors, but I will not accuse someone or an organization of wrong doing when in fact, they are not guilty. Come forth with proof and make it accurate, not hearsay or so conjecture.
You wrote: "This would be the pastor I emailed earllyer. IT seems like you anyway, because you dont really seem to know much about the industry, and you spoke of jesus. Please, look around, read, see why I fight so hard. We have surviors from some of the worst walks of life here, all will tell you about what evils happened to them in the name of God and "fixing" them"
OverLordd, I do know some about the problems that you are speaking about, but I also know honesty and integrity and to slander or make these accusations and paint all groups with a broad brush is wrong and you know that. So, why do you do it? We could also write and give much proof from "state" institutions who treat people wrongly and there are just as many if not more evils, in the name of fixing them. Why single out so called "religious" organizations. I appeal to honesty and fairness. Yes, I am the pastor you wrote to and I make my appeal for honesty. If, in fact, I am wrong, as I told you, I will go all I can to stop Anchor Academy but I will not stand by and see them maligned without proof. There are churches that are wrong and I know this and so do you, that does not mean all churches are wrong. There are schools that are wrong and parents that are wrong and doctors that are wrong. We don't write off all these because of the wrong of a few.
In a former post, Overlordd, you wrote some very strong posts...you used the phrase "I hate" refering to the people. I can understand hating what they do, but to hate them is quite condemming and often our "hate" blinds us to truth. I would not want to be the object of your "hatred" because you might attack me unjustly because I am attempting to do right.
For the record, I have heard nothing but good about Anchor Academy in Haver, MT. The area around Haver is very supportive of the group and I have talked with many of the students there and they are some very fine young men. Anchor seeks to teach character as well as integrity. My name...Harvey Seidel, Pastor of First Baptist Church in Thermopolis, WY
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On 2005-10-02 22:30:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Yes, I am the one. I don't disagree, but let's not write everything and everyone off that is doing a good work. I challenge you and others to find the evidence that you are saying exists, but I don't see or don't know any evidence. It is easy to throw around accusations without proof. If there is proof of Anchor Academy doing wrong or having abuse, then I will join your endeavors, but I will not accuse someone or an organization of wrong doing when in fact, they are not guilty. Come forth with proof and make it accurate, not hearsay or so conjecture.
You wrote: "This would be the pastor I emailed earllyer. IT seems like you anyway, because you dont really seem to know much about the industry, and you spoke of jesus. Please, look around, read, see why I fight so hard. We have surviors from some of the worst walks of life here, all will tell you about what evils happened to them in the name of God and "fixing" them"
OverLordd, I do know some about the problems that you are speaking about, but I also know honesty and integrity and to slander or make these accusations and paint all groups with a broad brush is wrong and you know that. So, why do you do it? We could also write and give much proof from "state" institutions who treat people wrongly and there are just as many if not more evils, in the name of fixing them. Why single out so called "religious" organizations. I appeal to honesty and fairness. Yes, I am the pastor you wrote to and I make my appeal for honesty. If, in fact, I am wrong, as I told you, I will go all I can to stop Anchor Academy but I will not stand by and see them maligned without proof. There are churches that are wrong and I know this and so do you, that does not mean all churches are wrong. There are schools that are wrong and parents that are wrong and doctors that are wrong. We don't write off all these because of the wrong of a few.
In a former post, Overlordd, you wrote some very strong posts...you used the phrase "I hate" refering to the people. I can understand hating what they do, but to hate them is quite condemming and often our "hate" blinds us to truth. I would not want to be the object of your "hatred" because you might attack me unjustly because I am attempting to do right.
For the record, I have heard nothing but good about Anchor Academy in Haver, MT. The area around Haver is very supportive of the group and I have talked with many of the students there and they are some very fine young men. Anchor seeks to teach character as well as integrity. My name...Harvey Seidel, Pastor of First Baptist Church in Thermopolis, WY"
Mr. Seidel,
I suggest you do some reading about the Roloff Ministries and the damage they caused to hundreds of young people. Like it or not, Anchor IS a Roloff spin-off. I don't know for certain if Anchor is abusive or not. But it being a Roloff spin-off is a BIG red flag. ALL of the Roloff-connected "schools" I've encountered have a long track record of complaints from former residents and in some cases investigations by state authorities.
Now matter how you spin it, it looks bad.
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If you are ever on Amtrak's "Empire Builder" Chicago/Seattle train you can get an excellent "to go" burger and fries across the street from the train station in Havre.
Make sure the train is on time because you can get left there.Usually it is a service stop for the train,but if the train is running late it may depart earlier than expected.(Dont buy the chicken dinner and DONT PLAY THE POKER MACHINES)
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Yes, I am the one.
Welcome to Fornits pastor. I will do my best to see that you come to a understanding with us and maybe at least pull your support if not hurt Anchor Academy.
I challenge you and others to find the evidence that you are saying exists, but I don't see or don't know any evidence.
This website is full of evidence condemning a large swath of people, maybe not your specific institution, but indeed others that are like your institution. We are greatly concerned about Anchors links to Roloff, which has had proven abuses.
paint all groups with a broad brush is wrong and you know that. So, why do you do it?
This discussion has come up a great many times in forum and out. I will explain it to you because you are somewhat new to the ideas surrounding the teen help industry. We paint with such a wide brush because the industry is indeed largely corrupt. It started in the 70's and 80's and has still continued to hurt others. Your organization is not a primary target here, we are just concerned. While yes at a base idea we would like it shut down, but that speaks for the entire industry. We know Roloff was abusive, and we have linked the organization to Roloff, that is why we are worried and why we have taken action.
We could also write and give much proof from "state" institutions who treat people wrongly and there are just as many if not more evils, in the name of fixing them. Why single out so called "religious" organizations. I appeal to honesty and fairness
Indeed you have the honesty pastor. You believe you are being focused on, but indeed you are not. State intuitions are the same if not worse as private ones. I do not single out religious programs. I single out anyone suspected of abuse and anyone that has hurt children. You are not being focused on, do not think otherwise.
There are churches that are wrong and I know this and so do you, that does not mean all churches are wrong. There are schools that are wrong and parents that are wrong and doctors that are wrong.
Your example here is not correct because of the very nature of the industry. Workers that hurt children have been passed around, and hidden in other programs, they have gotten work elsewhere after being fired. There have been instances of murders getting a job at another intuition. Churches do not pass around members, schools don?t pass around students, and doctors are punished. The industry faces no punishment for its murdering. We write off all people in the industry, because all have a hand in, if not in the idea of a direct hand, then in the idea of they let it happen.
I can understand hating what they do, but to hate them is quite condemming and often our "hate" blinds us to truth. I would not want to be the object of your "hatred" because you might attack me unjustly because I am attempting to do right.
Yes, I hate child abusers, I will stand by that, I hate people that break up families, and I hate people that take advantage of parents in a tough spot. I will not change that. But I do not hate people such as you, people that truly do not know and do not understand what is going on. I have friends in the industry, I have friends that have worked for the industry, I have had loved ones forced into the industry, kidnapped. And I hate it, believe, I hate it. Like God hates sin.
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Pastor Seidel,
I trust that you will continue to read and educate yourself about Mr. Dennis McElwrath and his connection to the abusive Roloff Ministries. An AP newspaper article of March 15, 2001 discusses "BROTHER" DENNIS'S work in Texas with the Roloff Homes, that were operated by People's Baptist Church in Corpus Christi, Texas, and "BROTHER" Dennis did work there.
You might want to ask this man, "BROTHER" Dennis why the boys at Anchor Acadmey are not allowed free communication with their families? Do you approve of monitored telephone calls? Do you approve of censoring the mail of these boys? To what extreme means would you allow "BROTHER" Dennis to go in order for these boys to "be saved?" These are questions that must be answered, Pastor Seidel--because now that you have been made aware, you TOO are now responsible for these young men. The welfare, and safety of these young men and boys has now been placed on your doorstep. YOUR CHURCH--the Baptist Church, through YOU and YOUR STATEMENTS has so stated that these boys are safe, and are not being abused, and that their rights are not being violated.
You owe it to these boys to MAKE SURE that you are, in fact, speaking the "gospel truth."
Thank you for your interest in these boys.
http://www.gocorpuschristi.com/2001/mar ... 00351.html (http://www.gocorpuschristi.com/2001/march15/today/localnew/200351.html)
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I suggest you do some reading about the Roloff Ministries and the damage they caused to hundreds of young people. Like it or not, Anchor IS a Roloff spin-off. I don't know for certain if Anchor is abusive or not. But it being a Roloff spin-off is a BIG red flag. ALL of the Roloff-connected "schools" I've encountered have a long track record of complaints from former residents and in some cases investigations by state authorities.
Now matter how you spin it, it looks bad. "
[/quote]
Looking bad and being bad are two different things. You don't know that it is bad and saying that it looks bad is condeming. What you are doing is deplorable.
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I have recently talked to Mr. Spencer who is the man in charge and have asked him to come to this forum and at least read these things and be ready to answer them. It is not just me that is accountable it is all the groups, churches or individuals that support Anchor Academy. We want to be right and do right. If Roloff ministries were abusive, then those who supported them should have been more aware and done something. My position is that we would never support abuse. Who is defining abuse. Is correcting or not letting a person/child/adult do what they want abuse. Is obeying the rules abuse. You have to be careful here for we move from the subline the ridiculus. Making a child wash dishes to some is abuse. I don't know the majority of you who are writing these things so definitiions are in order. My big concern here is that you don't ruin a good ministry by slander or connection, but give it a chance to defend itself. I know of people who are slandered and accused and are innocent of the wrong they have been accused of, but because someone wanted to "destroy" them, they set out, doing just that. Thanks for listening. s/ Pastor Seidel
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Well we have emotional and physical abuse. Emotional abuse would be things like.
Forced disclosure.
Embarassment.
No privacy
Trying to change a persons state of mind
Yelling (also verbal abuse)
Reinforcing the idea that they are crap without the program.
Anything that harms a persons mental state and that they cannot combat against. (ex. a parent calling a kid a waste of space. Or useless)
I would also call forced conversions a form of emotinal abuse.
Physical abuse would be things like.
Beatings.
Mal-noursment.
Standing long periods.
Being restrained.
Forced into a uncomfortable position for long periods.
Not allowed to use the bathroom.
Forced march.
Things like that, im sure this does not cover the bases and im sure others can add to this.
Moving on, making them wash dishes is not abuse, its pointless busy work that should be done by someone being paid. It drags the kids down to the level of slaves.
And please pastor... do not call this a good ministry, call it a program, call it a orginistation, but please, do not call it a ministry. God would never ever have this done, nor does it better the kingdom in anyway.
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Pastor:
Abuse is yelling, calling names, monitoring calls to the family, denying the boys the right to communicate with their families, denying the boys food as punishment, censoring the boy's mail.
Physical abuse: hitting, restaining, excessive exercise as punishment, sleep deprivation, spitting on them, sitting on top of them, twisting their arms.
Emotional, psychological abuse: telling the boys they are worthless, telling them their parents don't want them, making fun of them in group sessions, making the boys "confess" in open meetings, making the boy's confidential information "public" to the other boys.
You are a grown man, Pastor: you know that washing dishes is NOT ABUSE.
Surely you, in your wisdom know what physical, psychological, emotional, sexual abuse is.
Surely as a pastor you have counseled people in your flock who have come to you as "victims of abuse." Please do not present yourself as a person who does not understand the term "abuse."
And these boys do have RIGHTS, and they must be protected.
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Told you things could be added.
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On 2005-10-03 18:23:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Pastor:
Abuse is yelling, calling names, monitoring calls to the family, denying the boys the right to communicate with their families, denying the boys food as punishment, censoring the boy's mail.
Physical abuse: hitting, restaining, excessive exercise as punishment, sleep deprivation, spitting on them, sitting on top of them, twisting their arms.
Emotional, psychological abuse: telling the boys they are worthless, telling them their parents don't want them, making fun of them in group sessions, making the boys "confess" in open meetings, making the boy's confidential information "public" to the other boys.
You are a grown man, Pastor: you know that washing dishes is NOT ABUSE.
Surely you, in your wisdom know what physical, psychological, emotional, sexual abuse is.
Surely as a pastor you have counseled people in your flock who have come to you as "victims of abuse." Please do not present yourself as a person who does not understand the term "abuse."
And these boys do have RIGHTS, and they must be protected.
"
Don't patronize me, I don't need it, nor do I respect you when you do it. You are doing just what you claim is abuse, pouring a type of verbal/written scathing to me. I am saying that your definition of abuse and someone else's definition of abuse is definitely different.
Sure I know what abuse is, both verbal and physical.
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On 2005-10-03 15:06:00, OverLordd wrote:
"Well we have emotional and physical abuse. Emotional abuse would be things like.
Forced disclosure.
Embarassment.
No privacy
Trying to change a persons state of mind
Yelling (also verbal abuse)
Reinforcing the idea that they are crap without the program.
Anything that harms a persons mental state and that they cannot combat against. (ex. a parent calling a kid a waste of space. Or useless)
I would also call forced conversions a form of emotinal abuse.
Physical abuse would be things like.
Beatings.
Mal-noursment.
Standing long periods.
Being restrained.
Forced into a uncomfortable position for long periods.
Not allowed to use the bathroom.
Forced march.
Things like that, im sure this does not cover the bases and im sure others can add to this.
Moving on, making them wash dishes is not abuse, its pointless busy work that should be done by someone being paid. It drags the kids down to the level of slaves.
And please pastor... do not call this a good ministry, call it a program, call it a orginistation, but please, do not call it a ministry. God would never ever have this done, nor does it better the kingdom in anyway."
Okay, program. I will give you that. I don't disagree with you on most of your list of abuse. In any program it does not hurt anyone/someone to join in and help the program...see, I am using the word. That is not abuse, it is understanding responsibility. In a school program we have too many kids who are waited upon and they treat the facilities and the equiptment with no respect, thus it/they are soon destroyed or lost. So, pickup and take care of equiptment. If you don't you lose the privilge of having them.
I do understand some of your concerns but feel you are jumping to a conclusion based on no facts in evidence.
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To Pastor Seidel, I do hope that you will check into the history of the Roloff schools, Rebekah School, and its history of abuse. It is documented that Dennis McElwath worked with the Roloff ministries. The concerns expressed here are sincere. I do not have anything personally to gain by this request--I do not have a child at Anchor Academy, and have no personal vendetta against this school. But I am gravely concerned. Since your church and people you know support this school, I ask that you personally find a way to investigate this situation. Thank you.
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On 2005-10-03 21:53:00, Anonymous wrote:
"To Pastor Seidel, I do hope that you will check into the history of the Roloff schools, Rebekah School, and its history of abuse. It is documented that Dennis McElwath worked with the Roloff ministries. The concerns expressed here are sincere. I do not have anything personally to gain by this request--I do not have a child at Anchor Academy, and have no personal vendetta against this school. But I am gravely concerned. Since your church and people you know support this school, I ask that you personally find a way to investigate this situation. Thank you. "
I will do this. I am already doing my homework on Anchor Academy. It makes it impossible to be fair and honest when there are so many accusations leveled against Anchor Academy with no proof. The one "student" who is mentioned earlier, and his sister makes some accusations that are not just as it was described to me. So, you have one side and it seems there is another. The parents seem satisfied but the sister wants to get her brother "out." I would challenge her to go see her brother if she is so concerned. Don't hide in a forum and stir people up when she really might not have the facts. When and if she goes, and finds things as she thinks and presents them, then evidence can be shown. If on the other hand, she finds that her brother is safe and well cared for, I would hope she would have the honesty to report such findings to this forum.
What I see here in this forum is also a negativity toward anything that might smack of God or Christ, or "religion." True Christianity is not abusive and is not violent. Many of you have seen the opposite and I am sorry for that. I truely believe that there are some good programs out there and they are doing a good work to help.
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In a school program we have too many kids who are waited upon and they treat the facilities and the equiptment with no respect, thus it/they are soon destroyed or lost. So, pickup and take care of equiptment.
I can agree with this, but not because of the resons you are thinking. Not to get into side notes. But I think its because the youth have no stake in what is in the public schools. You know what I mean? The schools are federally funded, so the kids dont have to pay for it. Its like communism, they dont have a stake in it and it can be replaced in their mind so they just dont care about it. Thats my view anyway.
I would challenge her to go see her brother if she is so concerned.
Pastor, some times, in some programs people who are not supportive of the program are not allowed on campus, that is pretty common, families have been broken up over this.
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Does Anchor Academy have an "open door policy?" Are ALL family members allowed to visit the students there?
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I don't know if Anchor does have an open door policy or not. I am sure that you can contact Mr. Spencer and ask. In the case where there is concerns, I would think that it would be possible. I will ask and report back.
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Thank you very much pastor.
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Pastor: please read under the topic " need advice..." it is by Desperate Dad who is considering placing his son at Achor Academy. He spoke with a newpaper in Havre: and it appears that an employee at Anchor was fired for inappropriately touching one of the boy students at Anchor. Seems there have been "problems" at Anchor! Why would anyone take such a CHANCE by placing their child at this facility, or LEAVING their child there?
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bump, where are you pastor?
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I am here, I answered over on the other thread. I am in contact with Anchor and am planning to go visit them soon. They are very cooperative and willing for visitors.
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Pastor be sure to speak to the children in private, with a promise that you will not discuss it with the program people. These children need to feel protected if they are to say anything.
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On 2005-10-08 23:08:00, OverLordd wrote:
"Pastor be sure to speak to the children in private, with a promise that you will not discuss it with the program people. These children need to feel protected if they are to say anything."
I understand what you are saying but remember these are young men...Most of what I have seen and visited with are 15 and up. I think they would resent you calling them children. We had a number of them (40) here in our church a few months ago. There were no restraints, no extra discipline, not a problem one. Very excellent group. Well mannered, respective to the adults. We heard from a number of them. Either they are all brainwashed or there is some good things happening at this program.
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Pastor, it appears your Baptist Church wants to to support this so-called school, and wants to accept that nothing is wrong there, and wants to accept that firing a child molester just clears up everything. You already have on blinders. That is evident. You are not searching for any TRUTH, you are merely justifying why that so-called school in in existence and why your church should continue to support it.
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I understand what you are saying but remember these are young men...Most of what I have seen and visited with are 15 and up. I think they would resent you calling them children. We had a number of them (40) here in our church a few months ago. There were no restraints, no extra discipline, not a problem one. Very excellent group. Well mannered, respective to the adults. We heard from a number of them. Either they are all brainwashed or there is some good things happening at this program.
Very well, youth then. Is youth ok? But anyway, you have to understand how the portgams work pastor, they only take the broken ones out into public. The high level ones or whatever you want to call it. They show a good face and keep the ones fighting still at the compound. Those that are shown to the public may not nessasarly be brain washed but indeed they are being held in check some how, via horror or threat, or something else.
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By law, these young men are "children". MINORS.
And yes, "children" who reside in private programs ruled by fear and intimidation often suffer abusive treatment at the hands of adults ... in silence. Anyone who expects otherwise is sadly mistaken.
:smokin:
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Pastor said:
What I see here in this forum is also a negativity toward anything that might smack of God or Christ, or "religion." True Christianity is not abusive and is not violent. Many of you have seen the opposite and I am sorry for that. I truely believe that there are some good programs out there and they are doing a good work to help.< End of quote>
This is an abomination in itself. Christianity would not exist today with out Violence and forcing beliefs on others. Using fear as the prime tactic. If you didn't believe, you were tortued and or killed. I think we all know what I am talking about here.
I see how someone who believes christianity in any form or many other formed religious Organizations, can not see abuse or violence. They may see it as a path to "God" Showing someone the "better" way. All in all it is forced group think that makes people comply to any program. These Children would never tell you of abuse, because it would not be safe for them to do so.
To deny Christianity was forced on millions by sheer violence is just Blasphemous. I have been personally asked to leave a church when I questioned their tactics. I'm not against any religion, but I must be aware of them all and take caution. Many allow abuse and violence ( maybe on a much smaller scale than before, but still greatly present) as a "showing the way"
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On 2005-10-09 11:20:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Pastor said:
What I see here in this forum is also a negativity toward anything that might smack of God or Christ, or "religion." True Christianity is not abusive and is not violent. Many of you have seen the opposite and I am sorry for that. I truely believe that there are some good programs out there and they are doing a good work to help.< End of quote>
This is an abomination in itself. Christianity would not exist today with out Violence and forcing beliefs on others. Using fear as the prime tactic. If you didn't believe, you were tortued and or killed. I think we all know what I am talking about here.
I see how someone who believes christianity in any form or many other formed religious Organizations, can not see abuse or violence. They may see it as a path to "God" Showing someone the "better" way. All in all it is forced group think that makes people comply to any program. These Children would never tell you of abuse, because it would not be safe for them to do so.
To deny Christianity was forced on millions by sheer violence is just Blasphemous. I have been personally asked to leave a church when I questioned their tactics. I'm not against any religion, but I must be aware of them all and take caution. Many allow abuse and violence ( maybe on a much smaller scale than before, but still greatly present) as a "showing the way""
Your reference to Christianity is different that my understanding and also Bible Christianity. No one forces a belief on anyone as it pertains to the Bible. Jesus never forced or pressed anyone to believe, that is a personal decisioin. What you know of Christianity as you call it, is not what I believe. Careful of lumping all of these things into one basket. I for one don't want to be a part of that. I am sorry for what you have experienced. The Lord is not that way, unfortuntely, many are.
I further resent the patronization I am recieveing on this forum. I am continually referred to as blind, ignorant and un-educated and all of you feel sorry for me because I have not recieved the light like you. I am sorry you don't know the type of Chrisitianity that I know and I am further sorry for the hurt you have recieved. I have lerned to take each situation or individual and program for what it is and not condemn others because of those who have done wrong.
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On 2005-10-09 07:57:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Pastor, it appears your Baptist Church wants to to support this so-called school, and wants to accept that nothing is wrong there, and wants to accept that firing a child molester just clears up everything. You already have on blinders. That is evident. You are not searching for any TRUTH, you are merely justifying why that so-called school in in existence and why your church should continue to support it."
Please don't catagoize me and please don't say what you don't know to be. I justify nothing and I further resent you saying I do. What we support is really none of your business. You have on blinders in that you can't see any good in anything that isn't to your standard or code. I don't know who you are, as you post Anonymously, and I doubt if you have any concern for the boys there either, but rather lump anyone who is trying to do a program as suspicious. People do bad things. Anchor fired the person who did wrong. What more do you want them to do. Draw and quarter everyone? Would you be happy then. What should they have done....closed the school/program because someone did wrong? Use your logic and when they did right, rejoice they didn't push it under the covers and let it continue.
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On 2005-10-09 12:42:00, Pastor wrote:
"
On 2005-10-09 11:20:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Pastor said:
What I see here in this forum is also a negativity toward anything that might smack of God or Christ, or "religion." True Christianity is not abusive and is not violent. Many of you have seen the opposite and I am sorry for that. I truely believe that there are some good programs out there and they are doing a good work to help.< End of quote>
This is an abomination in itself. Christianity would not exist today with out Violence and forcing beliefs on others. Using fear as the prime tactic. If you didn't believe, you were tortued and or killed. I think we all know what I am talking about here.
I see how someone who believes christianity in any form or many other formed religious Organizations, can not see abuse or violence. They may see it as a path to "God" Showing someone the "better" way. All in all it is forced group think that makes people comply to any program. These Children would never tell you of abuse, because it would not be safe for them to do so.
To deny Christianity was forced on millions by sheer violence is just Blasphemous. I have been personally asked to leave a church when I questioned their tactics. I'm not against any religion, but I must be aware of them all and take caution. Many allow abuse and violence ( maybe on a much smaller scale than before, but still greatly present) as a "showing the way""
Your reference to Christianity is different that my understanding and also Bible Christianity. No one forces a belief on anyone as it pertains to the Bible. Jesus never forced or pressed anyone to believe, that is a personal decisioin. What you know of Christianity as you call it, is not what I believe. Careful of lumping all of these things into one basket. I for one don't want to be a part of that. I am sorry for what you have experienced. The Lord is not that way, unfortuntely, many are.
I further resent the patronization I am recieveing on this forum. I am continually referred to as blind, ignorant and un-educated and all of you feel sorry for me because I have not recieved the light like you. I am sorry you don't know the type of Chrisitianity that I know and I am further sorry for the hurt you have recieved. I have lerned to take each situation or individual and program for what it is and not condemn others because of those who have done wrong. "
I wasn't patronizing you. I was pointing out that from your perspective things do infact look diffrent. And based on history, many cultures and religions used Violence as a means to impose their beliefs on others. History repeats itself, but often isn't realized until many years later. We must take caution to not allow our vision to be clouded based one ONE set of principles.
My other point is children who may be being abused in any program will be afraid to tell someone or may not even realize for many years they were being abused. Group think is a powerful tool, which must be kept in check by many points of view. To keep in "check" a program by it's own principles will only benefit that specific program and hide any abuse which may be occuring. This is why often outside observations are brought in. Many of us here are trying to bring about change in how programs are regulated, and they must be regulated/evaluated by an outside/non bias observer.
Don't get me wrong, I'm one of the more open people posting on Fornits.
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On 2005-10-09 09:40:00, OverLordd wrote:
"I understand what you are saying but remember these are young men...Most of what I have seen and visited with are 15 and up. I think they would resent you calling them children. We had a number of them (40) here in our church a few months ago. There were no restraints, no extra discipline, not a problem one. Very excellent group. Well mannered, respective to the adults. We heard from a number of them. Either they are all brainwashed or there is some good things happening at this program.
Very well, youth then. Is youth ok? But anyway, you have to understand how the portgams work pastor, they only take the broken ones out into public. The high level ones or whatever you want to call it. They show a good face and keep the ones fighting still at the compound. Those that are shown to the public may not nessasarly be brain washed but indeed they are being held in check some how, via horror or threat, or something else."
Okay, I respect you for what you say. I will speak to youth in private. I will also ask the powers that be if there is anything going on and root out what "truth" is. Are we not all kept in check by something. Why don't we break laws? Why don't we speed on the highway....fear of the consequences. We must be careful how we say what we do... If I tell a child that he should not do something and he does, and I tell him he will go to bed without supper, is this abuse? To some it is. The child made the decision. Are you saying that there can be no consequesces for our wrong doing? If I tell my son that he has to be in before 10 PM and he comes in at 10:30, and I say, okay, your decison, you can't have priviledges, I take away those priviliges. Is that abuse? Come, let's be reasonable. Laws are right and laws are to obey. If laws are not obeyed, then we have anarchy. If using drugs is illegal and it is, then when someone uses drugs they disobey the law. When I tell you that you can't smoke in my house, tobacco is a drug, and you do, then I give you a choice. Don't use tobacco and stay in my house, or use it and leave. Your choice. Take the consequences. A society, any society without boundries soon falls apart. I could go on and on, but I want to hear what you say. Thanks for listening.
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I am kept in check by my desire to not harm others and myself.
Laws mean little to me when they were made for a time that is not now. By people who may or maynot have been abusing power, drugs, alcohol, their children, their wives etc.
Our world needs a hefty "looking into" We need to reflect on ourselves what our individual morals mean and how we can allow each person their rights as an incarnated Soul here. No matter their physical age.
Children have had their rights taken away.Is going to bed w/o supper abuse?How do you feel when you have been deprived of food as a punishment?I think we as people living here all together on this Earth need to wake up and take a good look at ourselves.
You as a Christian believe we should use fear of consequences as a motivator? I don't but I also I don't have a solution on a large scale, but there must be a better way.I also understand history has created this and would take an enormus movement to change it.You and I are but 2 people who can work to come up with a solution.
Allowing children to learn about themselves and how they effect others without judgement or consquences would be ideal.Far too many people in power are afraid to give children this kind of self-rightous power. Based on the history of fear/control making our laws and Teaching us what our morals Should be, it doesnt look like a change will come any time soon. Sad for the fate of the world.
Don't be a victim of history repeating itself.Don't add to the propaganda of why things should be a certian way based on fear.
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On 2005-10-09 13:27:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I am kept in check by my desire to not harm others and myself.
Laws mean little to me when they were made for a time that is not now. By people who may or maynot have been abusing power, drugs, alcohol, their children, their wives etc.
Our world needs a hefty "looking into" We need to reflect on ourselves what our individual morals mean and how we can allow each person their rights as an incarnated Soul here. No matter their physical age.
Children have had their rights taken away.Is going to bed w/o supper abuse?How do you feel when you have been deprived of food as a punishment?I think we as people living here all together on this Earth need to wake up and take a good look at ourselves.
You as a Christian believe we should use fear of consequences as a motivator? I don't but I also I don't have a solution on a large scale, but there must be a better way.I also understand history has created this and would take an enormus movement to change it.You and I are but 2 people who can work to come up with a solution.
Allowing children to learn about themselves and how they effect others without judgement or consquences would be ideal.Far too many people in power are afraid to give children this kind of self-rightous power. Based on the history of fear/control making our laws and Teaching us what our morals Should be, it doesnt look like a change will come any time soon. Sad for the fate of the world.
Don't be a victim of history repeating itself.Don't add to the propaganda of why things should be a certian way based on fear."
Thank you for your reply. I don't have the answer either and I do agree that the whole world needs looking into, but until then, I have to work with the system and laws we have. Until then, we do the best we can. Honesty and intgerity always are right. If I am told to be at a place by 7 for a meal and I don't get there, I don't get the meal. My disobeying, or not being prompt caused me to go without. Sure it happens. I may as an adult be able to govern myself and go elsewhere for a meal but maybe not too. I go without supper. I will learn to be there on time. This doesn't seem to be a problem to me, like it does you.
Public School has as a god the athletic programs. The students are told to do some things, if they don't, they run laps, don't get to play or something else. Schools tell students they must keep a grade average to be in sports, if they don't they don't play. A student soon learns these are the rules and to qualify they keep their grades up, and obey the coach. In wrestling, they qualify in a weight divison. They can meet the weight or not, their choice. If it is abuse to do all these things, then we operate on a society of abuse. A child who is a bully, is told not to do something. If he does, what are you going to do? Take that bully away from the rest of the children is an answer. He is now set aside and told if he/she can't abide by rules, he will be over by himself. Abuse? No, he made the choice. See, there has to be some sort of structure. Anchor did hire this employee. The employee did wrong, they turned him over to the authroities (three years ago) and the authorities prosecuted him. The the Sheriff's office do wrong by prosecuting him? it all depends on which side you are on, doesn't it? Un disciplined children or undisciplined adults are all the same...without structure they become a rule and law unto themslves and hurt or cripple society. No, I don't have all the answers either. Wish I did. But we must be logical and think through some answers. What would you have these parents do who have rebellious boys or girls. Do you want to follow the Bible principle of the Old Testament and take them out and stone them? Of course not. We try and yes, we fail. I have heard of programs that are failures and do abuse children/youth. Shut them down and prosecute them if they indeed are guilty of wrong. On the other side of the coin, when a group....like Anchor Academy is doing right, encourge them and support them and in the same time police them so they don't do wrong. Constant criticism and constant questioning and accusations is not the answer.
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I love that idea, I really do. The world needs a "looking into." thats something that im going to remember for a long time. Thank you very much that.
What would you have these parents do who have rebellious boys or girls. Do you want to follow the Bible principle of the Old Testament and take them out and stone them? Of course not. We try and yes, we fail. I have heard of programs that are failures and do abuse children/youth.
What I really want them to do pastor is to love them. You know as well as I do that love is very powerful and it can do great things. If the parents were good parents then things like this would never happen and you know what I mean. If the parents loved their children then the children would not have to be forced to work for their repemption in the eyes of the parents.
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Jesus did not practice TOUGH LOVE on sinners.
Why the pastor and all those who hurt children in the name of "Therapy", "Treatment" or "Salvation" can not see this is proof positive that the work they are doing is NOT the will of GOD but rather, the DEVIL, himself.
:flame:
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On 2005-10-11 14:14:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Jesus did not practice TOUGH LOVE on sinners.
Why the pastor and all those who hurt children in the name of "Therapy", "Treatment" or "Salvation" can not see this is proof positive that the work they are doing is NOT the will of GOD but rather, the DEVIL, himself.
:flame:
"
Oh, but I think he did. Besides, you don't know what so called tough love is? There are so many definitons running wild out there that I would want to know what you call so called "TOUGH LOVE."
Jesus didn't coddle the money changers when he drove them out of the temple. Moses didn't treat those who were worshipping the golden calf very nice. Made them drink the ground up gold and in so doing made them accountable for what they had done.
And, be careful how you lump me with those who hurt children. I would never allow nor would I condone children being abused or hurt. You are quick to judge and quick to stack those who do wrong with someone who is seeking the truth. Your quickness is as wrong as their's. Just don't start throwing rocks till you know there is someone who is guilty. There are plenty who are guilty and I would agree to that, But there are some who are not, and you don't seem to recognize that fact.
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On 2005-10-11 14:14:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Jesus did not practice TOUGH LOVE on sinners.
Why the pastor and all those who hurt children in the name of "Therapy", "Treatment" or "Salvation" can not see this is proof positive that the work they are doing is NOT the will of GOD but rather, the DEVIL, himself.
:flame:
"
Was it also implied that Early christianity was NOT "True Christianity" I'd like to know when they became 2 seperate entities? and Why, What is "True Christianity" covering up or misleading people into an un-reality for. This is like saying as a baby I was a completely diffrent entity than after I grew old.
The end "True Christianity" is being implied as a justification of "The means" Another idea imposed by programs who use abuse, such as the early christians did to become whatever it is they call themselves today.
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Pastor said "...........Oh, but I think he did. Besides, you don't know what so called tough love is? There are so many definitons running wild out there that I would want to know what you call so called "TOUGH LOVE."
Jesus didn't coddle the money changers when he drove them out of the temple. Moses didn't treat those who were worshipping the golden calf very nice. Made them drink the ground up gold and in so doing made them accountable for what they had done < end of quote >
The way I understand it is: Jesus loved all, he didn't practice "tough love" He didnt punish anyone or look down on anyone. He loved all. Who was the lady he is suspected (and some have said its proven) of being married or having a relationship with, Mary Magdeliy (sp) Wasn't she suspected of being a prostitute? Maybe he was with her beating her into submission or with holding food from her until she repented. I doubt that! More like showing her thru love there was another way, if infact she had been prostituting.
Wasn't it Jesus who loved unconditionaly and said "do not worship me, worship my father" I was taught in early Sunday school.. That Jesus was trying to teach the people they had NO right to judge good or bad, so how could he have inacted punishment? Wait maybe that was in the PRE King James version? Well heck How would we know for sure, it changes to meet the current "needs" of it's Goverment.
i may be rambling, but I hate when one person says they know for absolute something was a certian way because they read in it which ever version of the book they were issued. And then told it was the ABSOLUTE truth and to SPREAD the word. Well imo the WORD has been spread much like a virus. And like virus it changes to meet the needs of it's current survival.
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Pastor,
I don't think anyone of us is attacking you here, please don't take it that way. If you are comming here claiming truth, so must many of us. The point of the debate, I think, is to show you there is a MUCH larger picture than you have been trained to see. Believe what you will, but harm none. (this includes teenagers who may be a diffrent example of what you see as healthy growth.)
Be well.
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On 2005-10-11 14:27:00, Pastor wrote:
"
On 2005-10-11 14:14:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Jesus did not practice TOUGH LOVE on sinners.
Why the pastor and all those who hurt children in the name of "Therapy", "Treatment" or "Salvation" can not see this is proof positive that the work they are doing is NOT the will of GOD but rather, the DEVIL, himself.
:flame:
"
Oh, but I think he did. Besides, you don't know what so called tough love is? There are so many definitons running wild out there that I would want to know what you call so called "TOUGH LOVE."
Jesus didn't coddle the money changers when he drove them out of the temple. Moses didn't treat those who were worshipping the golden calf very nice. Made them drink the ground up gold and in so doing made them accountable for what they had done.
And, be careful how you lump me with those who hurt children. I would never allow nor would I condone children being abused or hurt. You are quick to judge and quick to stack those who do wrong with someone who is seeking the truth. Your quickness is as wrong as their's. Just don't start throwing rocks till you know there is someone who is guilty. There are plenty who are guilty and I would agree to that, But there are some who are not, and you don't seem to recognize that fact. "
Driving money-chargers out of a temple (fighting corruption) has what to do with "tough love" upon children, Pastor?
And BTW, "Tough Love" as we know it and how its PRACTICED is basically treating children and teenagers as austere and acetic as possible, being extremely authoritarian and doling out lots of punishments for not following excessive rules and 'structure'.
Oh, and 24/7 loss of privacy and freedom, and minimalizing any amount of fun or enjoyment in their lives. Calling it "hard" as if making something difficult, unenjoyable, or painful is somehow more than just difficult/unenjoyable/painful and is actually "good".
Now, dont setup a strawman and say Im not for holding people/children/teenagers accountable, because Im not against that. I just dont have any belief or reasoned support for being 'hard' on people for its own sake and treating children and teenagers like felons.
But anyway, back to Jesus, he loved everyone, forgave all sinners, and said "do not worship me, worship my father". I personally find it so sad that so many Christians are so far from his teachings all the time. Im sure you can share that feeling. However, I am not going to accept that fighitng corruption somehow equates to "tough love" upon teenagers thats nothing more than behavior modification and feel-good authoritarianism. Marijuana in its natural form is one of the safest therapeutically active substances known to man. By any measure of rational analysis marijuana can be safely used within the supervised routine of medical care.
Administrative Law Judge, Francis Young, DOJ/DEA
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Pastor wrote >>> Un disciplined children or undisciplined adults are all the same...without structure they become a rule and law unto themslves and hurt or cripple society.
If it weren't for people Questioning and refusing to follow anothers rule of them, America and many other cultures would NOT exist. Most religions would NOT exist. America was formed by people refusing to live by someone elses terms. Religous and Goverment rebels came. So are you not grateful for these who fought for freedom then? Are you not grateful for those Diffrent-thinking/reacting adults? are you not grateful they were not forced into some thought reform prison and brainwashed their ideas were Wrong? They are the type of peoples being locked away in Behavior/thought reform programs. People who ~buck the system. Programs are locking away people who's ideas do not match their own. Who is to judge, I won't take that upon myself, will you?
Pastor wrote >> What would you have these parents do who have rebellious boys or girls. Do you want to follow the Bible principle of the Old Testament and take them out and stone them? Of course not.
Is that not what programs do? I will have to assume you have never been a ~client yourself.
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On 2005-09-28 10:34:00, Dysfunction Junction wrote:
I see a lot of people ask general questions about these programs and they normally get a response like "use the search feature," etc.
Unfortunately, the folks looking for information here often know less about 'puters and the net than they know about the program about which they are inquiring...
"Hmmmm..." says the fly on the wall.... for it is a truth, which the experience of all ages has attested, that the people are commonly most in danger when the means of insuring their rights are in the possession of those of whom they entertain the least suspicion.
--Alexander Hamilton
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Would it be helpful to have the search feature return a prefabricated link like this?
Anchor Academy Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet.
--Napoleon Bonaparte, French emperor
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Hey Pastor, why not just hand the boy a phone and let him call his sister? She's obviously worried about him. If everything's alright, wouldn't it be simple just to let him tell her so and be done with it?
Penalties against possession of a drug should not be more damaging to an individual than the use of the drug itself
--Jimmy Carter
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Jesus didn't coddle the money changers when he drove them out of the temple. Moses didn't treat those who were worshipping the golden calf very nice. Made them drink the ground up gold and in so doing made them accountable for what they had done.
Pastor driving the money changers was fighting coruption, drinking the ground up gold was punishing those that should stand for God, a parallell would the the councliers. The children would be comparable to the masses, the crowds of people following that know no better. Also jesus showed mercy, great mercy. The women who was going to be stoned, the tax collecter up in the tree whos name I could not spell if I had spell check. Jesus was very mercyful, he only came down hard on hypocrites.
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On 2005-10-11 17:29:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
"
On 2005-10-11 14:27:00, Pastor wrote:
"
On 2005-10-11 14:14:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Jesus did not practice TOUGH LOVE on sinners.
Why the pastor and all those who hurt children in the name of "Therapy", "Treatment" or "Salvation" can not see this is proof positive that the work they are doing is NOT the will of GOD but rather, the DEVIL, himself.
:flame:
"
Oh, but I think he did. Besides, you don't know what so called tough love is? There are so many definitons running wild out there that I would want to know what you call so called "TOUGH LOVE."
Jesus didn't coddle the money changers when he drove them out of the temple. Moses didn't treat those who were worshipping the golden calf very nice. Made them drink the ground up gold and in so doing made them accountable for what they had done.
And, be careful how you lump me with those who hurt children. I would never allow nor would I condone children being abused or hurt. You are quick to judge and quick to stack those who do wrong with someone who is seeking the truth. Your quickness is as wrong as their's. Just don't start throwing rocks till you know there is someone who is guilty. There are plenty who are guilty and I would agree to that, But there are some who are not, and you don't seem to recognize that fact. "
Driving money-chargers out of a temple (fighting corruption) has what to do with "tough love" upon children, Pastor?
And BTW, "Tough Love" as we know it and how its PRACTICED is basically treating children and teenagers as austere and acetic as possible, being extremely authoritarian and doling out lots of punishments for not following excessive rules and 'structure'.
Oh, and 24/7 loss of privacy and freedom, and minimalizing any amount of fun or enjoyment in their lives. Calling it "hard" as if making something difficult, unenjoyable, or painful is somehow more than just difficult/unenjoyable/painful and is actually "good".
Now, dont setup a strawman and say Im not for holding people/children/teenagers accountable, because Im not against that. I just dont have any belief or reasoned support for being 'hard' on people for its own sake and treating children and teenagers like felons.
But anyway, back to Jesus, he loved everyone, forgave all sinners, and said "do not worship me, worship my father". I personally find it so sad that so many Christians are so far from his teachings all the time. Im sure you can share that feeling. However, I am not going to accept that fighitng corruption somehow equates to "tough love" upon teenagers thats nothing more than behavior modification and feel-good authoritarianism.
I want to anwer you but your have put so many things together this is going to take a while to sort out.
Tough Love and Jesus: "The statement was that Jesus didn't practice Tough love" Not that he practiced it on Children. Keep the context. Jesus did practice tough love with the adults that he dealt with. The woman of Samaria was asked, where is your husband, she had to reply she didn't have one and he further...well you know what he said, I don't have to teach you.
Thank you for your definition of Tough Love. That is your definition and may or may not be accepted by others or practiced by others as Tough Love. I don't presume to have a definition for it. I know it means doing what you have to do to make someone realize that they can't continue the way they are going. Even in that statment, I realize that what you have to do must have restrictions and those restrictions have to have boundries. I accept that. What boundries we or someone else sets is based on many factors. Obviously those factors are vital and important. I quote: "...being extremely authoritarian and doling out lots of punishments for not following excessive rules and 'structure'." What is lots of punishment and what is excessive rules and structure? See, those are general terms that can be taken by just about anyone and either accepted or rejected. Your definition of punishment and excessive rules might be very simplistic or very detailed. I don't know. I see a lot of people today who don't like any rules and reading signiture at the bottom of your post that "Marijuana in its natural form is one of the safest therapeutically active substances known to man. By any measure of rational analysis marijuana can be safely used within the supervised routine of medical care." I am sure that many would agree with you and you open a whole new can of questions. According to your statement you think that Marijuana is acceptable. I don't, so we disagree. We probably disagree on what is excessive rules too, and also what is punishment and structure.
I quote you: "Oh, and 24/7 loss of privacy and freedom, and minimalizing any amount of fun or enjoyment in their lives. Calling it "hard" as if making something difficult, unenjoyable, or painful is somehow more than just difficult/unenjoyable/painful and is actually "good"." I don't know where you are coming from on this. I am dealing only with Anchor Academy. I don't justify anyone else, any group, organization or person. If they have done wrong, then they are wrong and I feel you are bringing into this disucssion about Anchor Academy things that you don't have knowledge of or judgement that you should leave for some other organization. Please don't catagorize or get the implication that I would agree to any type of abuse or wrong doing. I will leave this at that. If you have knowldge regarding Anchor Academy in these areas, I would tell you outright, I don't agree and know from "first hand knowledge" that you are wrong. Again, I speak only as it relates to Anchor Academy.
Again...I quote you: "Now, dont setup a strawman and say Im not for holding people/children/teenagers accountable, because Im not against that. I just dont have any belief or reasoned support for being 'hard' on people for its own sake and treating children and teenagers like felons."
No Straw man...No one has said they agreed with treating children or teens like felons. I think that you should realize that the present laws in this land do treat teens and children like felons but some of them are. And mostly it is becasue they have had no structure in their life and live a life like they have no accountablity. Once they learn accountability and love, the Love of Christ, then we see wonderful change.
And finally: "But anyway, back to Jesus, he loved everyone, forgave all sinners, and said "do not worship me, worship my father". I personally find it so sad that so many Christians are so far from his teachings all the time. Im sure you can share that feeling. However, I am not going to accept that fighitng corruption somehow equates to "tough love" upon teenagers thats nothing more than behavior modification and feel-good authoritarianism."
Jesus did love sinnners. He died for us. That is greater love than any man could show. Be he taught that if a man repent forgive him. No man can get the forgiveness of God if he doesn't repent. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins...but repentance is necessary. That is where tough love comes in. If there is no repentance there can be no changing. I am not going to get into a theological discission with you but we have a socitety and a bunch of people out there who feel that you can just let wrong doing go and it will take care of itself. Not so.
Somewhere in these discussions we need to be careful who our enemies are. I am not your enemy nor do I want to be. I want right as well as you but I don't like to lump everything and everyone into a boiling pot.
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On 2005-10-11 18:50:00, Antigen wrote:
"Hey Pastor, why not just hand the boy a phone and let him call his sister? She's obviously worried about him. If everything's alright, wouldn't it be simple just to let him tell her so and be done with it?Penalties against possession of a drug should not be more damaging to an individual than the use of the drug itself
--Jimmy Carter
"
Good idea, and more than that, why doesn't she go see him. I have asked the same question. Ask the boys parents. I have talked to the Anchor people and they are more than willing for her to visit him, talk with him or whatever, but the parents are the ones to deal with. They have told them, Anchor, no, she is not allowed. Some problem there or something.
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On 2005-10-11 14:32:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-10-11 14:14:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Jesus did not practice TOUGH LOVE on sinners.
Why the pastor and all those who hurt children in the name of "Therapy", "Treatment" or "Salvation" can not see this is proof positive that the work they are doing is NOT the will of GOD but rather, the DEVIL, himself.
:flame:
"
Was it also implied that Early christianity was NOT "True Christianity" I'd like to know when they became 2 seperate entities? and Why, What is "True Christianity" covering up or misleading people into an un-reality for. This is like saying as a baby I was a completely diffrent entity than after I grew old.
The end "True Christianity" is being implied as a justification of "The means" Another idea imposed by programs who use abuse, such as the early christians did to become whatever it is they call themselves today."
No, listen to what I am saying. To do wrong in the name of Christianity is not "true Christianity." We live in a day when everything under the sun is label as "Chrisitianity and religious." When in fact it is not true or real or even Christian. The Catholic Church and their priests that molest boys is not true Christianity. That is not God like or Christ like. But, it is labeled such. That is only a very simple illustration. Any program that is labeled as Christian and doesn't practice Christ like is not "true" Christianity. I deal every day with people who don't want anything to do with God or the church because of a problem in the past with someone they know or someone who hurt them. Becasue they were hurt they reject God. God didn't hurt them, False Christianity did. That is what I am saying. Hope this helps.
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On 2005-10-11 14:50:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Pastor said "...........Oh, but I think he did. Besides, you don't know what so called tough love is? There are so many definitons running wild out there that I would want to know what you call so called "TOUGH LOVE."
Jesus didn't coddle the money changers when he drove them out of the temple. Moses didn't treat those who were worshipping the golden calf very nice. Made them drink the ground up gold and in so doing made them accountable for what they had done < end of quote >
The way I understand it is: Jesus loved all, he didn't practice "tough love" He didnt punish anyone or look down on anyone. He loved all. Who was the lady he is suspected (and some have said its proven) of being married or having a relationship with, Mary Magdeliy (sp) Wasn't she suspected of being a prostitute? Maybe he was with her beating her into submission or with holding food from her until she repented. I doubt that! More like showing her thru love there was another way, if infact she had been prostituting.
Wasn't it Jesus who loved unconditionaly and said "do not worship me, worship my father" I was taught in early Sunday school.. That Jesus was trying to teach the people they had NO right to judge good or bad, so how could he have inacted punishment? Wait maybe that was in the PRE King James version? Well heck How would we know for sure, it changes to meet the current "needs" of it's Goverment.
i may be rambling, but I hate when one person says they know for absolute something was a certian way because they read in it which ever version of the book they were issued. And then told it was the ABSOLUTE truth and to SPREAD the word. Well imo the WORD has been spread much like a virus. And like virus it changes to meet the needs of it's current survival.
"
Well, I seem to have struck a cord here someplace. You have lots of different things in this post. I see a lot of sarcasm first and I really don't want to deal with that. This is not a forum on King James and versions as you have brought them into your post. I further will not answer a post that brings Jesus into being married to Mary Magdalene. She was a woman that was possessed with devils and Jesus had cast them out. Mark 16:9 and Luke 8:2. I know nothing of the woman you talk about being a prostitute other than the woman of Samaria in John 4. This has nothing to do with what is being discussed. Jesus was kind to the woman of Samaria, asked her for a drink and discussed the Lord with her. But when he dealt with her sin, he never flinched and questioned her about her (im) moral life. Regarding the woman caught in adultery, he forgave her but told her to go and sin no more. He didn't tell her to go on doing what she was. So, try any translation and you will find I told it the way it was.
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On 2005-10-11 13:06:00, OverLordd wrote:
"I love that idea, I really do. The world needs a "looking into." thats something that im going to remember for a long time. Thank you very much that.
What would you have these parents do who have rebellious boys or girls. Do you want to follow the Bible principle of the Old Testament and take them out and stone them? Of course not. We try and yes, we fail. I have heard of programs that are failures and do abuse children/youth.
What I really want them to do pastor is to love them. You know as well as I do that love is very powerful and it can do great things. If the parents were good parents then things like this would never happen and you know what I mean. If the parents loved their children then the children would not have to be forced to work for their repemption in the eyes of the parents."
You are right, parents need to love their children. I have read a lot of the posts about the Roloff homes and unquesionably there were some wrongs committed. But there were some who reported nothing but love and help and compassion by some of the people he had working with him. Unfortunatly, something got out of hand and lots of hurt resulted.
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I suppose you can see why I was asked to leave a "christian" church. I ask alot of tough questions that some are afraid to answer. I rebel. I'm glad of that in myself. It is one of my better qualities.
But I must ask myself why you are so sure the truth you have been taught, is in fact The truth.
After re-reading the Whole thread again. I wanted to jump on a plane and go demand to see these children and this facility. I wish there was a panel of people who can go/will check out this place. It really sounds like a scarey place, where secret behavior/thought reform take place. I am concerned for these children. I am greatly concerned about the inability for these Youth to communicate with any one they choose, in Private.
Many Cult leaders think they were/are doing good things, teaching their followers his/her understanding of God and how to best serve God. Often it is called The True way
PS-all the anons are not the same here, some of Pastor's responses have made me think he doesn't realize this.
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On 2005-10-11 14:58:00, Dreamy Surf wrote:
"Pastor,
I don't think anyone of us is attacking you here, please don't take it that way. If you are comming here claiming truth, so must many of us. The point of the debate, I think, is to show you there is a MUCH larger picture than you have been trained to see. Believe what you will, but harm none. (this includes teenagers who may be a diffrent example of what you see as healthy growth.)
Be well.
"
Thank you, Dreamy Surf. I agree but let me also say, as I learn what you are saying and what many of these posts are about, please also learn from me that "there might be a good one out there" that needs protecting as well. I never would be so wrong as to not acknowledge that the programs or whatever we call them are in great need of closing down, judgement against etc. but don't kill a good one in your stabbing at the bad ones.
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If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins...but repentance is necessary. That is where tough love comes in. If there is no repentance there can be no changing.
WTF?
You think "tough love" makes them repentant? :lol:
GOOD ONE! 'repentance' as in the acceptance that youre a human and not an infallable being and wanting to be better and genuinely not wanting to harm others is not something that can be shoved onto someone or forced onto others. But yes, I could conceiveably beat someone into 'repentance' unless he would rather be beaten to death or was a masochist. But saying "Im sorry, please stop hurting me" is a far different thing.
Then again, when you said you don't have a definition of tough love in the first place... how does your definition of "tough love" bring that about? Proselytization? Making them suffer to some undefined degree by some undefined means so they repent to make it stop? Breaking their spirit and killing their identity as a person and replacing it with someone else in their body?
Coersion is not bringing about some change inside someone unless you mean damaging them or brainwashing them into walking the line the programmers have set for them.
But I degress. To go any further I need to know what you feel 'tough love' is and how its supposed to work. Also, Im not arguing from the POV of Anchor Academy, but rather the concepts of tough love, and trying to change children and teenagers in programs via the various methods they use.
I've been out of the forum loop lately due to personal issues, so Im not going to jump into the AA thing... because I dont know about it or whats going on, but the concepts themselves I'm pretty familiar with. The function of the press is very high. It is almost holy. It ought to
serve as a forum for the people, through which the people may know freely what is going on. To misstate or suppress the news is a breach of trust.
--Mr. Justice Brandeis
[ This Message was edited by: Nihilanthic on 2005-10-11 21:03 ]
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Thank you, Dreamy Surf. I agree but let me also say, as I learn what you are saying and what many of these posts are about, please also learn from me that "there might be a good one out there" that needs protecting as well. I never would be so wrong as to not acknowledge that the programs or whatever we call them are in great need of closing down, judgement against etc. but don't kill a good one in your stabbing at the bad ones. "
I'd disagree. The wellbeing of the children, teenagers, and even the few adults still under the yoke of coersive programs is far more important than the checkbooks of program operators. Id sooner have ever good program go bad (hey, business ain't always fair) than one bad program hurt another child even for a second.
Maybe if you really knew what was going on, it would click more. And no, I dont mean the graphic details of the PHYSICAL ACTS upon them, like what happened to Samantha Monroe (http://http://www.webdiva.org/fox) or the Child in ISAC's "Statement E" (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=8973&forum=9#93462) regarding Tranquility Bay, but I mean the broken spirits, humiliation, the deep, DEEP harm to their souls and their hearts. Having to spend your existance walking a tightrope of ridiculous rules and regulations, at the mercy of the whims of the staff and higher-level 'students' there with you, and in at least some of them periodically having your mind and spirit put through an emotional meatgrinder... colloquially called a Seminar, Propheet, Rap, or Workshop, but in the terminology of Psychology a "Large Group Awareness Training", or LGAT for short.
Furthermore, the way that everything is currently going on... theres no real way to find out. A good program (which Ive yet to see) would... appear to be a good program! A bad one would hide it. I they can choose who you talk to, and when you talk to them, and simply dont have bloody or beaten children walking around in sight and keep the grounds reasonably clean, you wouldnt be able to tell.
A suitably coersed child would lie right through their fake smile to you about how wonderful the program is because they know if anyone found out they told the truth, their suffering would rival childbith or crucifixion. Again, its not about the mechanics of it, the phyiscal acts and coreography, its about what it does to their minds and souls. Cuts heal, infections are fought off, broken bones mind and bruises fade, but they're really nothing compared to the psychological impact of it.
Basically, the crux of it is that its isolated and controlled, and there arent video cameras with microphones in every room at all times. The other thing is many outsiders simply don't get what the feeling of hopelessness is like when youre trapped away from home and all who love you with people you fear and loathe with not a moment of pleasure, happiness, privacy, where even a moment of simply not suffering is as treastured as icewater in hell. You wont EVER find out whats going on in the program from someone whose been picked to leave the program, because nobody who disagrees would be allowed to leave!
Thats the thing. The program is always right, and you are always wrong. Whether they operate under the banner of emotional growth, fighting "druggies", Jesus Christ or Mickey Mouse?, they all operate the same way. Youre broken down until you conform to them and then when youre sent out youre only allowed to do so when they know you wont run or tell whats going on... and a lot of the time you really dont know its anything bad.
Talk to Antigen or Perrigaud about that... Antigen a long time ago and Perrigaud (and her friend Amanda) recently came out of their WWASPS brainwashing at the hands of Cross Creek Manor.
The only way to make sure the programs are okay is with psychologists analyzing it basically constantly and video cameras with microphones in EVERY SINGLE ROOM. Programs with cameras just have the child drug off to a "cameraless room" to do the beatings, and many laypeople would tolerate LGAs as "weird therapy" without knowing the true damage they cause.
Again, Im not trying to insult you, but there is so much more going on here than you know. Theres a lot that you dont know you dont know, and theres also a long history of this stretching back to the Synannon Cult. You've got a lot of research and reading to do before you start to grasp it... and then a lot of people to talk to before you really begin to comprehend it. Maybe the two links I put in what I said could at least give you an idea.
Now, imaigne tens of thousands at any given time for DECADES. Pretty hard to wrap your mind around, isnt it? Now imagine how THEY feel!
And, just so you have a feel about what I am... I stumbled on this whole mess around April 2004, and Ive never been in any program - but thats the thing. Im apparently one of VERY FEW people who understand and care about this who isnt a victim, parent, or one of the perps themselves. The function of the press is very high. It is almost holy. It ought to
serve as a forum for the people, through which the people may know freely what is going on. To misstate or suppress the news is a breach of trust.
--Mr. Justice Brandeis
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I'll probably be the odd-ball out here, but I don't think Jesus practiced 'tough love' in any sense of the word. And definitely not after he obtained 'christ consciousness'.
I consider his behavior in the temple (which I wouldn't classify as tough love, btw) to have been an indignant reaction to what he perceived as a violation of his values. An outright disrespect of other humans.
After obtaining CC he taught acceptance and forgiveness. He didn't call his grassroots movement christianity. There were NO churches and he never intended there to be churches.
He apparently went through some soul searching, grieved the reality before him, and my guess is that he surrenedered to the ultimate disappointment- that his fellow humans were beyond reach. Incapable of entertaining anything different. He knew the inevitable- they would crucify him for challenging their fear based beliefs. He traveled around and taught by example and methaphor. He hung out with the 'lowest of the low', in nature.
He apparently could've administered some 'tought love' to those who crucified him, or just poofed into another realm of existence... but chose to use his death as another teaching.
Unfortunately, Humans still haven't gotten the message. It's too fucking simple for their distressed minds to comprehend. And the money changers are still feverishly at work, raping and pillaging those who actually work for a living.
And the 'christians' still support 'tough love'. I don't recall one story in which the christian's lord advocated 'beating the devil' out of anyone- physically or psychologically. That's a misguided human creation. And the more sadistic will try like hell to justify it with their religion.
As for Moses. Anyone know if he took Peyote up with him? That's a pretty wild tale. Those who rule by religion are not much different than politicians. They've always known that to gain any compliance from the masses that the word had to come from some external, disembodied 'authority'.
What most practice as 'christianity' is not the true teaching of jesus, it's the bastarized version provided by the romans when they couldn't put down his movement. The whole virgin birth and jesus being the son of god, blah, blah, blah.
If you look at his life and all its challenges, it's pretty clear to see that he was as human as the rest of us and took the challenge to rise above the dominant paradigm.
Further, they conveniently removed all the important information from the 'holy text' that might teach other humans how he obtained CC. It appears that they didn't tamper with his direct quotes. In them, some truths might be found.
Ever since I was a child, this was my favorite:
"All these things I do, You can do AND MORE".
Now, why would he say such a thing if it weren't true? Ask the romans. What's stopping you?
Protect the children. Advocate for life sustaining social policies. Stop tithing to a religious organization and put that money directly in the hands of a family in need, without strings. You might be surprised how good it does your heart. And you might get the first inklings of CC. It ain't got a thing to do with 'tough love'.
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Pastor,
Your kind, kinda scare me. I hope this doesn't end with Kool-aid or anything :eek:
Wow, how can we free these children? All I can say is Wow. I've said my thoughts earlier, but now seeing a bigger picture of Anchor and places like it, just Wow. What can I do to help free these children. I am now also a witness, and have some responsibility.
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"A suitably coersed child would lie right through their fake smile to you about how wonderful the program is because they know if anyone found out they told the truth, their suffering would rival childbith or crucifixion."
Assinine statement. Unfounded, untrue, ridiculous, and over the top.
:silly:
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1. good job fucking up the quote tags AGAIN. We dont have enough open tags and line breaks, seriously. I love scrolling, yes, I really do.
*ANYWAY* :wave:
May your days be joyfully challenging and your words artfully true
-- Ginger Warbis SMA, `00
[ This Message was edited by: Nihilanthic on 2005-10-12 14:30 ][ This Message was edited by: Nihilanthic on 2005-10-12 14:31 ]
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wtf, I cant read shit on this page. :silly:
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On 2005-10-12 14:27:00, Anonymous wrote:
"wtf, I cant read shit on this page. :silly: "
No shit! But hey, at least I can CLOSE MY QUOTE TAGS, even if Im some drama-lover (or whatever dr phil is gonna try on me next, seeing as saying I was a mama's boy failed miserably in another thread) :rofl: Christianity is the most ridiculous, the most absurd and bloody religion that has ever infected the world.
--Francois Marie Arouet "Voltaire", French author and playwright
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Yay, quote tags fixed, now I can actually read all of what he had to say.
So yeah, NOW I can actually go after your posts! :roll:
1. Its ASININE, and two, Uh... what part of that is not understandeable? If youre in a bad program and try to tell or run, and get caught and drug back, theyre going to beat the shit out of you.
2. Uh, you mean all programs are good? In a bad program thats sure as fuck how I was told it was by people who were there... and you haven't been there yourself, either.
3. Have YOU been to all of them? The fact that its impossible to know except for what survivors say is my WHOLE POINT!
4. Yes, it is good that Im not directly impacted by it yet still care, because people who were in the programs and say its bad are often accused of being insane or manipulated BY IT and thus because I was not Im more credible to some people.
And yes, are you omniscient? Do YOU Know all about whats going on in all programs? NO!All religions bear traces of the fact that they arose during the intellectual immaturity of the human race - before it had learned the obligations to speak the truth. Not one of them makes it the duty of its God to be truthful and understandable in his communications.
--Freidrich Nietzsche, German philosopher
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do you? do you know they are ALL bad? have you visited all of them or spoken to every student? how about dropping the generalities and say some programs are bad. that is for sure. some may be good, but most people on this forum have had bad experiences with them. just as no one can say all programs are good and all students benefit from them, you should not say that all are bad and no student has ever benefitted from them.
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On 2005-10-12 16:03:00, Anonymous wrote:
"do you? do you know they are ALL bad? have you visited all of them or spoken to every student? how about dropping the generalities and say some programs are bad. that is for sure. some may be good, but most people on this forum have had bad experiences with them. just as no one can say all programs are good and all students benefit from them, you should not say that all are bad and no student has ever benefitted from them."
this has to be one of the dumbest arguments ive read on this site. really.
'but not all are bad' lol :roll:
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On 2005-10-09 07:57:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Pastor, it appears your Baptist Church wants to to support this so-called school, and wants to accept that nothing is wrong there, and wants to accept that firing a child molester just clears up everything. You already have on blinders. That is evident. You are not searching for any TRUTH, you are merely justifying why that so-called school in in existence and why your church should continue to support it."
Word.
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WORD? What does that mean?[ This Message was edited by: Pastor on 2005-10-12 17:36 ]
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I'm sorry, I meant-- werd.
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It's what the common folk say when they mean "Such is the word of God". I shit you not!
You can lead a camel to water but you can't make it stink (any more than it already does)
-- Job
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http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=word (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=word)
Under the slang definition.
Ain't the internet grand?
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?Trying to cloud it with the "well you dont know whats going on" arguement is actually proving my point. We dont know, and IF something is going on they wont tell because they dont want to get hurt again.?
Thank you for admitting you don?t know.
?But anyway, no, I dont have first hand experience, but I know a lot of people who do. But anyway... WTF is your point? Your statement is a lot of words that doesn't say anything or make any points.?
What makes a person a valid witness? If they?ve been students and they fail to spot the pervasive abuse you rattle on about, they?re brainwashed. If they have experience working at a program and they somehow never saw or participated in torture, they?re lying or brainwashed. If they?re parents whose child came out of a program in better shape than they went in, they?re dirty rat bastards who just don?t realize the damage yet. If they?re government agents who have investigated programs and found no problems, they?re all part of a plot. Apparently anyone who has experienced programs in propria persona is simply less competent than one speaking, as you are, per rectum.
::dove::
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Thanks to all that have posted in my request for information on the Anchor Academy in Havre, MT. I have found this site very informative. I have found the following:
1: People seem to like to generalize and have input even if they have no personal experience (shich is what I have asked for)
2: There seems to be an overabundance of attacking another's beliefs instead of respecting a differing point of view
3: A lot of people with nothing better to do than sit and condemn an entire industry (that, I admit, is fraught with abuse) when theree are examples of success and some good programs out there.
By success I mean teaching a youth how to survive and behave in a manner that is acceptable to society (at least a part of society that I want to participate in). That teaches a youth to respect others and their property as well as themselves and not degenerate to a point of self-destruction. That believes in God (as I do) and the principles that the Bible teaches....Morality, service to others and doing good for good's sake.
4: That there are a few people out there that are willing to look at an individual program/facility with an open mind and judge it on it's own merits
5: I have seen an entire facility condemned because the director worked in the past at a school that had problems without finding out what his position was at that school...was he responsible or the abuses that were suffered there? Does that mean that everyone that worked at Enron was guilty? or that every Catholic priest is a child abuser? Does it mean that every person that lived in Germany during WWII is guilty of participating in the Holocaust? Brother Dennis worked at a Roloff school.....does that identify his standards now or then? Or does it mean that he found employment in a less than desireable facility? But then, I haven't researched Roloff, so I don't know for a fact what kind of place it is.
I appreciate Pastor, who tried to help make calmer heads prevail and bring a sense of calm, investigative thinking and research to this forum, only to be personally attacked, have his belief system berated and generalized beyond any sense of realism by people who can't spell, don't research or think before they speak. I, for one would want to RUN from those that choose to bring gasoline to a fire instead of trying to find out what started the fire in the first place.
Now a little about my situation.....so you don't think that I am the type to run amok..My son, now 16, effectively left school in the 8th grade. He reads at a college level, comprehends at a college level, does math at a 9th grade level without ever doing any studying, so he's not an idiot. He got into drugs and started skipping school....no consequences I could mete out would have any impact on him. I have had him in 3 inpatient programs and 3 outpatient programs and according to the last one "He could teach this stuff. He knows what to do, he just won't do it" The only program that effected a change in him in any way was the Catherine Freer Wilderness Program in Albany Oregon. When he came back from that, I had my son back for about 8 months...life was great....we talked, did family things, spent time together, etc...and he admitted taht he NEEDED the structure that was provided there. I couldn't provide the 24/7 supervision that he needed for an extended period of time until he was able to internalize the self-discipline needed to maintain. He was aware that boarding school would be a last resort andhas know it for over a year. I live in Washington State which is, besides beautiful, one of the worst states in the country for parental rights when it comes to dealing with children. Here they have a program to help parents with children that are out of control called "At Risk Youth". It brings the courts into the home......there is a list of behavior standards that the parents put together for their household....the child is made aware through the courts of these standards....when a child doesn't follow the rules, they are taken to court and dealt with through sanctions such as community service, house arrest, warnings (innumerable times) and finally, detention time. My son, in the past year has been in detention 22 times..for times ranging from 1 day to 30 days for refusing to go to court and running away for 12 days, doing drugs and stealing form me (once again). Over the past year and a half, he has stolen over $5K in goods and cash, refuses to participate in any family functions except vacations. We love him dearly, he loves us, but only thinks of himself and what he will get out of his actions, not what his actions are doing to him, his 5 yr old sister or the rest of the family. He has very low self-esteem because he has not been able to complete anything in his life (except Catherine Freer....he left all the other treatment programs) adn doesn't feel he can. I will do whatever it takes to help him succeed and accomplish/complete something in his life....except the ruiniation of his life.
I appreciate everyone's input....this is one forum that gives all forums a bad name....and is a waste of the internet.
I abhor any form of child abuse, but applaud any effort to teach children the kind of values that this wonderful country was founded on....family, God, discipline, patience, work and ethics.
As for the A.C.E. education program...I know 2-3 dozen families that utilize the same program to educate their children at home....and they all graduate from high school at a level that public schools could only dream of achieving. They are all, respectful, intelligent, kind and trustworthy children/young adults. Most graduates are attending colleges and maintaining grade levels of 3.7 or above and don't seem to be falling into the self-depracating lifestyle that we find in a lot of college students. The families that I am familiar with are from Baptist churches, non-denominational Christian, evangelical Christian, Lutheran and even a Catholic family....Yes, they are all church going people and good people. People that I would, and am, prouod to call friends.
Thanks.
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Has your child read these forums or researched programs? Does he realize the path he is on will lead somewhere? At the end could be an abusive program which will impact him forever. Or do you just tell him about jail and death? Those didn't scare me, If I had however knew what Straight would possibly do to me, and that was one option my parents looked at seriously. I may have changed my running away (thats all I was really doing, to escape family abuse) I may have taken a more serious look at my life.
*I brought Gasoline to this fire to show, as an example of, how this fire was started in the first place.
You have a choice to not bring your son to the fire at all. Please, I am begging you, do everything in your power to find out as much as you can about a program you choose, Your son's life depends on it. Don't just choose the "lesser of the evils" Make a chioce based on the long term effects it may cause. Have you stopped to think it's the previous programs making him act out further? That is what it did to me, and I didn't even remember/let myself remember Straight until 15+ years later. It was that horrid. Some have speculated/researched that Teens "brainwashed" in these behavior/thought reform facilities are programed to NOT remember for a period of years.
Don't give up on your child's life, because someone has dangled a pretty picture of what your son WILL be after any program. It is all propaganda to take the responsibility off you....
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On 2005-10-13 13:19:00, Desparate Dad wrote:
"Thanks to all that have posted in my request for information on the Anchor Academy in Havre, MT. I have found this site very informative. I have found the following:
1: People seem to like to generalize and have input even if they have no personal experience (shich is what I have asked for)
Are you talking about physically being in the program? Is that what you're looking for? You know, just becuase someone wasn't at THAT place, doesn't mean they don't have bad memories of being held down in a revival tent and being told how worthless they are if they don't believe the words on the bible pages that are (sometimes literally) shoved down their throats.
2: There seems to be an overabundance of attacking another's beliefs instead of respecting a differing point of view
Why don't you respect a differing point of view then?
3: A lot of people with nothing better to do than sit and condemn an entire industry (that, I admit, is fraught with abuse) when theree are examples of success and some good programs out there.
Success as a result of the program, or success as a result of the kid just wising up and taking on his/her own life? Success as a result of thinking for themselves, or "success" because they've just been beaten down so much that they don't fight anymore? What is your idea of "success"?
By success I mean teaching a youth how to survive and behave in a manner that is acceptable to society (at least a part of society that I want to participate in).
Oh! There we go. The society that YOU want to participate in. Well what if the kid doesn't want to participate in that part of society? Maybe the kid is fine. Maybe he needs to be out in the real world, instead of some cloistered fabrication of someone's design in which you believe.
How does anyone learn about the real world
in that environment?
That teaches a youth to respect others and their property as well as themselves and not degenerate to a point of self-destruction. That believes in God (as I do) and the principles that the Bible teaches....Morality, service to others and doing good for good's sake.
Why can't you teach this yourself? And so what if your kid doesn't believe in God as you do? You're going to "program" him into believing? THAT statement ALONE is why some people around here are really pissed off. Many around here consider that brainwashing.
This is where Al Quaeda is coming from in their argument, too. Would you seek "treatment" for your son tomorrow, if he announced he was going to study Islam?
4: That there are a few people out there that are willing to look at an individual program/facility with an open mind and judge it on it's own merits
This is true. But what about those of us who have been in the earlier atrocious programs? What would you tell a victim of a pedophile priest when he tells you that he no longer trusts priests?
I agree - there are probably decent places within "The Industry" - but damned if I can understand why you people have these kids and oust them when they just get too damned "difficult".
5: I have seen an entire facility condemned because the director worked in the past at a school that had problems without finding out what his position was at that school...was he responsible or the abuses that were suffered there? Does that mean that everyone that worked at Enron was guilty? or that every Catholic priest is a child abuser? Does it mean that every person that lived in Germany during WWII is guilty of participating in the Holocaust? Brother Dennis worked at a Roloff school.....does that identify his standards now or then? Or does it mean that he found employment in a less than desireable facility? But then, I haven't researched Roloff, so I don't know for a fact what kind of place it is.
Well, read, then maybe you'll understand.
But also - isn't it people like you who take one look at your kid's friends, and deem them worthy or unworthy based on hairstyle, tatoos, piercings, clothing style or tobacco preference??
I appreciate Pastor, who tried to help make calmer heads prevail and bring a sense of calm, investigative thinking and research to this forum, only to be personally attacked, have his belief system berated and generalized beyond any sense of realism by people who can't spell, don't research or think before they speak. I, for one would want to RUN from those that choose to bring gasoline to a fire instead of trying to find out what started the fire in the first place.
The research has been done. This is the basis on which most of us speak.
Now a little about my situation.....so you don't think that I am the type to run amok..My son, now 16, effectively left school in the 8th grade. He reads at a college level, comprehends at a college level, does math at a 9th grade level without ever doing any studying, so he's not an idiot. He got into drugs and started skipping school....no consequences I could mete out would have any impact on him. I have had him in 3 inpatient programs and 3 outpatient programs and according to the last one "He could teach this stuff. He knows what to do, he just won't do it" The only program that effected a change in him in any way was the Catherine Freer Wilderness Program in Albany Oregon. When he came back from that, I had my son back for about 8 months...life was great....we talked, did family things, spent time together, etc...and he admitted taht he NEEDED the structure that was provided there. I couldn't provide the 24/7 supervision that he needed for an extended period of time until he was able to internalize the self-discipline needed to maintain. He was aware that boarding school would be a last resort andhas know it for over a year. I live in Washington State which is, besides beautiful, one of the worst states in the country for parental rights when it comes to dealing with children. Here they have a program to help parents with children that are out of control called "At Risk Youth". It brings the courts into the home......there is a list of behavior standards that the parents put together for their household....the child is made aware through the courts of these standards....when a child doesn't follow the rules, they are taken to court and dealt with through sanctions such as community service, house arrest, warnings (innumerable times) and finally, detention time. My son, in the past year has been in detention 22 times..for times ranging from 1 day to 30 days for refusing to go to court and running away for 12 days, doing drugs and stealing form me (once again). Over the past year and a half, he has stolen over $5K in goods and cash, refuses to participate in any family functions except vacations. We love him dearly, he loves us, but only thinks of himself and what he will get out of his actions, not what his actions are doing to him, his 5 yr old sister or the rest of the family. He has very low self-esteem because he has not been able to complete anything in his life (except Catherine Freer....he left all the other treatment programs) adn doesn't feel he can. I will do whatever it takes to help him succeed and accomplish/complete something in his life....except the ruiniation of his life.
I appreciate everyone's input....this is one forum that gives all forums a bad name....and is a waste of the internet.
I abhor any form of child abuse, but applaud any effort to teach children the kind of values that this wonderful country was founded on....family, God, discipline, patience, work and ethics.
Maybe the kid is tired of living up to your expectations. Maybe he wants to have a drink and a joint with his friends on the weekends, and his low self-esteem -as you call it- stems from knowing he's going to have to face "failing you".
How has he come to be so smart, when you consider him so dumb? Just because his choices in recreation aren't jibing with yours?
Yes, I'm playing devil's advocate here. But the fact that he's been "in trouble" tells us nothing. I've known kids "in trouble" for taking a beer at a party, and having no effects from it, and not having their lives affected, but since they got CAUGHT, they got "in trouble" - to where the punishment doesn't fit the crime.
Yeah, I guess a lot of us here are a little sensitive when that is the case - and in a lot of cases, that's exactly it.
IF your kid TRULY has a problem - then treat the problem.... preferably by a professional. Forget all this "low self-esteem", and "not living up to their potential" crap. Who are you to judge that anyway? What do you know what his "potential" is? Maybe he's quite happy (when you step out of his way) and will figure things out on his own.
As for the A.C.E. education program...I know 2-3 dozen families that utilize the same program to educate their children at home....and they all graduate from high school at a level that public schools could only dream of achieving. They are all, respectful, intelligent, kind and trustworthy children/young adults. Most graduates are attending colleges and maintaining grade levels of 3.7 or above and don't seem to be falling into the self-depracating lifestyle that we find in a lot of college students. The families that I am familiar with are from Baptist churches, non-denominational Christian, evangelical Christian, Lutheran and even a Catholic family....Yes, they are all church going people and good people. People that I would, and am, prouod to call friends.
Thanks."
I can't say anything about the cirriculum, because I don't know anything about it. What I do know is that there is an established cirriculum here in FL for home-schooled students, and a TON of paperwork for the parents to fill out and abide. Homeschool isn't a "self-taught" cirriculum - it's supposed to be a guided cirriculum, as in a regular school.
The fact that you want your kid to adhere to a Religious cirrculum isn't bad per se, but you really have to keep your finger on the pulse of what kids needs to be learning in order to be competitive in the real world. IMHO, "academics" should not involve religious training at all. Religious training is an aside.
And that's my 4 cents.
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Why don't you liberate your son. Sounds like he may be BORED as hell.
He might really excel, given the opportunity to work... which could do wonders for his self-esteem, keep him busy and off the streets, and if you charge enough for rent/transportation/food, he shouldn't have much left for buying drugs. If you require him to reimburse you for the $5000 he borrowed, in addition to room/board, he surely will not have money for drugs. Time to treat him more like a roomy than a dependent.
Catherine Freer sent you back a good actor. We'd all live 'better' lives if we lived in highly structured and rigid institutions. Lights out at ten. No TV, radio, internet. No overeating. No sleeping in. No touch, intimacy. Mandatory exercise. No distractions... just work, work, work. If you think more time in such an environment is the key, you are sorely wrong. Look at the prison recidivism rate. Locking someone away from reality doesn't help them deal with reality. You have any vices that might need treatment, dad? Say, rabid moralism?
Change occurs when the person desires change. Sometimes, the more you push externally, the futher you push them away and into destructive behavior.
Let him take on some 'adult' responsibilities. It's a bitch- very disappointing to realize that your intellegence exceeds that of your parents.
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My son has not researched these programs...and if I asked himn to, I would ask him to RESEARCH...and NOT to come to these forums that are so biased. As for where his actions will lead him, he has plenty of examples in his life...his favorite uncle died of drug and alcohol overdose at 34....his mother is in prison (for 4 years now) for drunk driving and killing someone and will be there for another 3 years. If you ask, yes, I have had him in counseling for 6 1/2 years since his mother and I have divorced. He has been through 5 counselors...the most educated of all of them indicated to me (after reading the application packet of 40 pages from Anchor Academy) that the Cadillac of treatments would have been to go to Catherine Freer Wilderness for 21 days, then directly to Anchor.....(I will say that he had no personal knowledge of Anchor specifically, he was saying that the type of structure and action/consequence system that they purport to embrace is the type of help my son needed). I have told him for over a year that if he didn't change his ways...(and yes, I was specific with him on which ways), I would have no other choice, but to send him to a boarding school. One of his "friends" was sent to 2 different schools for the same reasons, both of which were horrible and only made the problems worse when they threw the boy out. My son is aware of the bad that could conceivably come out of a facility such as this, but he also knows how much I love him and that I would not allow any harm to come to him.
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How the hell would you know if harm was coming to him if hes in a program, exactly? And why is a program necessary? Id wager theyre not because people have gotten fine without them for... uh, since the dawn of time, and *MOST* people get by without them ANYWAY!
But yeah, thats the thing... how does hiking through the woods eating bland food for a fwe weeks and then spending months to a few years in some locked in, isolated program going to help with emotional issues stemming from his divorced parents?
'Structure' (do as I say) and 'action/consequence' (I will make you do as I say) is uh.. teaching obedience. What does that have to do with emotional issues?
But that notwithstanding, why are you calling Fornits 'biased' when every program out there is biased to itself? Also, Lon Woodbury's "struggling teens" allowed *ZERO* negative statements about programs at all - if anything DID happen how would it get out?
Fornits is simply uncensored. People can say whatever they want, not what someone approves of, like EVERY OTHER PLACE ON THE INTERNET. I fail to see how this place is so horrible.
Anyway, before you do any research, check out http://www.isaccorp.org (http://www.isaccorp.org) - and then figure out just why a program is needed at all.
P.S. - my nickname is from Nihilanth - a character from a videogame called Half-Life?.Allow the President to invade a neighboring nation whenever he shall deem it necessary to repel an invasion, and you allow him to do so whenever he may choose to say he deems it necessary for such purpose, and you allow him to make war at pleasure. Study to see if you can fix any limit to his power in this respect, after having given him so much as you propose. If today he should choose to say he thinks it necessary to invade Canada to prevent the British from invading us, how could you stop him? You may say to him,--"I see no probability of the British invading us"; but he will say to you, "Be silent: I see it, if you don't."
--Abraham Lincoln
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I love him and that I would not allow any harm to come to him."
And yet, you seem eager to put him in a place that will more likely than not do him harm.
Warnings ("if you don't change your ways, this is what's going to happen") don't often work. Yes, your kid knows what kind of behaviors he needs to change. It's also probable that he wants to change his ways. But there's something stopping him from doing that. A good therapist could help him find out what that obstacle is, and how to handle it.
Programs, on the other hands, don't deal with issues all that much. Their main lesson is conformity. Conform to rules, even if you find them wrong in some way. Submit to authority, any authority. Never speak your mind. Always tell them what they want to hear. These are the true lessons of the programs, and, more likely than not, that is what your son will learn.
But maybe that's what you're looking for. A submissive robot who does everything you ask him to-- not because it's the right thing to do, but because you're The Parent. That is what programs teach: blind obedience. Nothing else.
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Wow, Dad. Sounds like your son has been abandoned on more than 1 account. I am personally pleading with you, If your son is not a direct threat to your or someone elses life, just love him through this troubled time in his life. Sounds like he deserves some stability. We are not your enemy, many of us are absolutely passionate about protecting teens from further abuse. What may seem like a good idea could destroy all of you forever, are you willing to take that chance? My parents did and were wrong, they made a bad choice based on what the program had to say. Please don't take your child's life into your hands. It may be the worst mistake you could ever make.
Try another counselor maybe, or is their any Outpatient "day" programs available to you? I just can't believe Any inpatient program is the best idea. He has had alot of tramitic events happen already, he has every right to have been responding to them the way he has. The events you told are very tough for a young person to process, Time maybe the only healer. Just please don't add to the trauma.
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On 2005-10-13 15:06:00, Desparate Dad wrote:
One of his "friends" was sent to 2 different schools for the same reasons, both of which were horrible and only made the problems worse when they threw the boy out. My son is aware of the bad that could conceivably come out of a facility such as this, but he also knows how much I love him and that I would not allow any harm to come to him.
Well, if there's anything better than expensive quack therapy, it's more expensive quack therapy! Hey, here's another idea. Lots of people seem to think this makes sense, so maybe it does. Let's just raise taxes. That will solve the problem, right? Well, maybe not. But at least it won't directly harm your son.
Why not take that money and some time off and you, yourself, take your kid hiking and maybe on a vacation or something. In the end, it'll be cheaper, more helpful and less risky.
Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of it's victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busy-bodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those that torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.
C.S. Lewis, God In The Dock
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I have tried to treat the problem....the drugs, alcohol (and it's not just a beer or two). He has stolen from friends, myself of course, shoplifted (and gotten caught), taken my car at night....(I have had to sleep with my car keys and my wallet under my mattress). Last time he went to detention, he couldn't remember how he got there he was so drunk...his friends turned him in (he was on the run for 12 days and I offered $200 to anyone that could get him to come home). His use of pot and alcohol will prevent him from keeping a job and his continued use of potwill prevent him from becoming what he espouses to be his hope....of becoming a law enforcement officer. I don't ask my son to believe as I do...what I was trying to convwey was that I believe in God...if he wants to become Buddhist, ok.....Islam, I might question his reasons, as long as he didn't subscribe to the jihadist extremism, ok....Judaism, fine, even Wiccan might be OK..
The curriculum is very well rounded....although they do teach creationism instead of evolution, but he is already aware of the theory of evolution from his days in public school.
I find it interesting that everyone that knows him well....family, family friends and even his friends that have struggled with and beat the drugs and alcohol are behind a program such as this 100%...I am here looking for someone with experience (personal experience) with the program at Anchor.
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Well, as I understand it, Anchor is a new name. So you're unlikely to come up w/ a lot of firsthand experience since the name change. But the people who run the place have a long and sordid history.
Your son's lucky to have good old friends who are willing to stick by him. You could learn from them.
It will be generally found that those who sneer habitually at human nature and affect to despise it, are among its worst and least pleasant examples
--Charles Dickens
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Thanks for your concern....he has been in 3 outpatient programs including one that he claims to like to be in....but he goes for 1 week....then refuses to go.....gets in trouble with the court, the court tells him to go back...so he goes for 1-2 days...then he is out again...drinking, drugging, dealing and stealing...Outpatient help....alternative schools....counselors......vacations......twice weekly ski outings in the winter.....seasons passes to local amusement parks......and I am the one taking him, his sister, their friends everywhere....I haev tried time all together...time just one-on-one.....I have taken time from work...for weeks at a time trying to find what he needs....and it seems what he needs most is himself and a belief in himself that he can succeed....something Catherine Freer gave him.....he did NOT enjoy the program, but he suer was proud of what he accomplished on that 12 day trip through the wilderness.
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Yeah, I get it. That's what I meant by that snide tax reference.
Bottom line is this, I know you think this is the better, safer option. But if you look into the backgrounds of the people to whom you've entrusted your son's safety and care, you may change your mind.
I'm sorry, but there are no guarantees. Either way is wrought with dangers. Either way may result in dismal failure or great triumph over adversity. But isn't it silly to pay someone to provide a contrived sort of adversity from which your son to learn? This gives you no net advantage over letting him find his own organic risks in the wild and carries the overwhelming liability of your being the immediate cause of whatever happens.
Sooner or later, he's going to start growing up for real; coming to terms w/ mistakes and their consequences and planning, in a concrete way, how to take care of himself and what kind of adult to be. Most kids rather need the support of their parents through this, though it gets more esoteric and less financial as you go. I know it meant the WORLD to me as I was striking out on my own that my Dad was no longer in support of the Program. He was no longer going around trying to fix or control me. Instead, he was happy to offer a cup of coffee and friendly conversation whenever I turned up.
Even when I turned up pregnant by an obviously abusive loser, he had quit trying to fix me and just went back to wishing me luck and being on my side. I fixed my own life in my own way. It would have been far and away more difficult for me had my dad never quit medaling in the process.
Just my .02
The road to hell is paved with good intentions. The people who ran straight had the best of intentions. I hope they reached their destination.
James Lloyd
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Just wondering... are you treating the problem or the symptoms?
Behavior modification to change his behavior doesnt do anything for the underlying issues. I realize your immediate concern is "drugs, stealing" bla bla bla, the typical stuff the programs are catering to the fears of ( a lot of the time the FEAR of kids doing it gets them sent to programs, not the actual action!).
You saw brat camp, right? You know how wilderness programs work, right? Tricked into coming in or FORCED to come in, forced to sign off on some BS paper, and then youre forced to physically exert yourself, endure crap, and the stress of that + the stress from the councelors (pushing buttons) so you basically get pushed until you break emotionally. Generally they get mad or have a crying breakdown or whatever.
So now, hes in a program, right? DUH hes gonna say hes 'proud he accomplished in it' because thats part of the deal. You have to agree with the shit in the brochures and 'work the program' to get out, even if its bullshit or simply a case of not being needed or necessary. Sure, if you survive shit you might be sure of yourself... but engineered, artificial hardship to 'overcome' is still just fake life experience.
I mean shit, its not as if he can leave or ask you pick him up, is it? So how would you know what he REALLY thinks? You DO know what happens if you say anything bad about the program, riiight? You get pusnished for 'manipulating.
Seriously, this place is teaching CREATIONISM. How hard would it be to imagine their whole model is to indoctrinate and make him repeat their dogma and act good before he gets out. So yeah, if you want him to be trained into obedience and spout Anchor's bullshit... well, there ya go.
Hell, while Im posting - please, share with us what kind of communication you and him have. Can you or have you shown up unannounced? Are his calls or letters monitored or censored? Did they say not to listen if he said anything bad because its manipulative?
My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I am right.
-- Ashleigh Brilliant
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My son is not in the program. If you actually read what I write instead of glance through it, you would have read that he completed Catherine Freer over a year ago. He hated the program, but by the way he talked about it and the stories he tells about it (still tells, by the way) it was an experience that is still showing positive effects and he IS proud of completing the program, enduring and thriving through the hardships of the program. I know you said forced exercise, bland food etc....how about your last hike in the woods and enjoying nature....did you hike to a secluded campsite and eat freeze-dried stew or is your idea of camping in a 36' motorhome with microwave and color tv? Nothing personal, but I think you are such an idiot....it's hard to take anyone seriously when they take a name from a computer game.....let's talk about the real world....of all the people "contributing" to this forum, you have the least amount of credibility to me....
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On 2005-10-13 15:59:00, Desparate Dad wrote:
"Thanks for your concern....he has been in 3 outpatient programs including one that he claims to like to be in....but he goes for 1 week....then refuses to go.....gets in trouble with the court, the court tells him to go back...so he goes for 1-2 days...then he is out again...drinking, drugging, dealing and stealing...Outpatient help....alternative schools....counselors......vacations......twice weekly ski outings in the winter.....seasons passes to local amusement parks......and I am the one taking him, his sister, their friends everywhere....I haev tried time all together...time just one-on-one.....I have taken time from work...for weeks at a time trying to find what he needs....and it seems what he needs most is himself and a belief in himself that he can succeed....something Catherine Freer gave him.....he did NOT enjoy the program, but he suer was proud of what he accomplished on that 12 day trip through the wilderness."
2 kids have died at Catherine Freer programs. One in Oregon (tree branch fell on him) and another in the Nevada based program.
Oh well. Your son was one of the lucky ones. Did you enroll him before or after the deaths?
:smokin:
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I forgot to address a couple of your comments. NO, I have never seen Brat Camp...heard about it from a few people, but I don't glue myself to the TV.....and Creationism.....been around longer than darwinian stuff....and creationism doesn't rule out evolution....or "the evolving of a species to better adapt to its environment...it just doesn't say that humans evolved from apes...that we were created as unique beings....and it doesn't say that humans were created exactly as they exist today.....
One last thing....please try to make ONE post without using profanity.....it shows your ignorance when you have to use it to express yourself.
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wasn't aware of the Nevada death....I was aware of the death of the youth when the tree (or branch) fell on him. Should we blame a program for the death? It was very unfortunate and I feel for the parents of the teen. I don't see how a program can be held to blame for an accident such as that.....What about the Boy Scouts that were killed by lightening at the Jamboree this past summer....is the Boy Scout program to blame for that? Should we disband them also?
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:roll: its hard to take someone serious when his online name is "Desperate dad" Are you SERIOUS? I just came up with this randomly several years ago because I needed an online name. You're REAL original yourself :wink:
Anyway, back to the actual reasons youre here:
Ok, I didnt read all your posts. Thats my fault. I've been busy all day and I didnt have time to follow the whole thread, so I got some splainin' to do. I just assumed the usual program parent schpiel. So, I must apologize to you, and then thank you for not being like that! It kind of grates on my nerves when children are sent to programs for being gay, talking back, skipping school, etc.
Anywho, if the whole point of wildneress programs is to keep them in their custody and force them to endure hardships... uh... why the hell not just let him go endure real life? Im sure it can be cathartic to have the suffering END, and THEN look back on it and go "yeah, I can survive it" but I doubt that suffering in and of itself is something therapeutic or safely guaranteed to not simply cause more damage and suffering. Hell, why not just beat him your damn self and then at the end go "see, you survived!"
If your son went in, and then came back out better for it, then Im DEFINTELY happy for him and yourself. Im just inherantly distrustful of something that amounts to lying or kidnapping to put a child with some people that give them crappy food and make them march around and exert themself and get their buttons pushed so they have emotional episodes, and then turns into just the start of the program pipeline and feeds into some "residential" place.
Well, that and I think theres more to his turnaround than just spending a few weeks shitting in a hole and smelling like B.O. and oatmeal. Until you've lost your reputation,you never realize what a burden it was or what freedom really is.
MARGARET MITCHELL
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On 2005-10-13 16:54:00, Desparate Dad wrote:
"wasn't aware of the Nevada death....I was aware of the death of the youth when the tree (or branch) fell on him. Should we blame a program for the death? It was very unfortunate and I feel for the parents of the teen. I don't see how a program can be held to blame for an accident such as that.....What about the Boy Scouts that were killed by lightening at the Jamboree this past summer....is the Boy Scout program to blame for that? Should we disband them also?"
We're talking about children and teenagers being pushed physically until they literally drop and die, while the "councelors" say "oh theyre FAKING and MANIPULATING, no, DONT give them shade or water!"
Its happened many, many times. And yeah, generally, they ARE ACCOUNTABLE FOR THEIR SAFETY. Falling branches I will admit are kind of hard to predict unless the branch is simply obviously about to break, but marching someone until they die is completely preventable. The overwhelming majority of people have more than the average (mean) number of legs.
-- E. Grebenik
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This accident occured during the night. They had all dug snow caves to sleep in.....while they were all asleep.......well.....Hard to hold anyone at fault for that, in my estimation.
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So because a program forced children into snow caves ... to learn about themselves and a child ironically was killed by a "falling branch/tree" isn't the programs fault? If a box falls and kills someone at a Dept. store, is it not the fault of the store? or wrong place/wrong time? Act of "God" maybe?
Maybe it was the parents fault for the child being in that enviroment in the first place. Or is it possible the truth was covered up at all? I wouldn't take those kind of chances with my kid's life.
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Rule #1... you don't set up your tent, or ice cave, under branches that are heavily laden with snow.
What, they didn't know? I bet they do now. Or, let's hope they learned from their mistake. A mistake that carried no consequence.
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The news article said the boy was killed when a tree branch heavily laden with snow fell on his tent.
Why were these children allowed to pitch a tent under a tree heavily laden with snow?
The branch broke (caused by the heavy snow) and fell on the boy, killing him.
This was a PREVENTABLE ACCIDENT resulting in death not an unforseen, tragic act of nature.
As for the other death, that was a young girl who died as a direct result of her participation in the CF program, as well.
:smokin:
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On 2005-10-13 16:41:00, Desparate Dad wrote:
"My son is not in the program. If you actually read what I write instead of glance through it, you would have read that he completed Catherine Freer over a year ago. He hated the program, but by the way he talked about it and the stories he tells about it (still tells, by the way) it was an experience that is still showing positive effects and he IS proud of completing the program, enduring and thriving through the hardships of the program. I know you said forced exercise, bland food etc....how about your last hike in the woods and enjoying nature....did you hike to a secluded campsite and eat freeze-dried stew or is your idea of camping in a 36' motorhome with microwave and color tv? Nothing personal, but I think you are such an idiot....it's hard to take anyone seriously when they take a name from a computer game.....let's talk about the real world....of all the people "contributing" to this forum, you have the least amount of credibility to me...."
Nothing personal, but even an idiot knows how to spell DESPERATE :rofl:
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Search WWF for Catherine Freer. There's quite a bit of info here.
You could start by reading the program's press release about what happened:
http://www.strugglingteens.com/news/cfpressrelease.html (http://www.strugglingteens.com/news/cfpressrelease.html)
Then read a statement from Erica Harvey's mom here:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=10#49114 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=654&forum=9&start=10#49114)
Having read both, how could ANYone believe the statement provided by CFW to be accurate?
No way in hell did that girl die due to hypothermia and dehydration from hiking "3 MILES". :rofl:
Kids in wilderness programs are guinea pigs. The programs are playing russian roulette with your child. As someone else pointed out, you were one of the lucky ones, rather your son was. There wasn't a bullet in the chamber on his turn. Fifty some other kids weren't so lucky.
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On 2005-10-13 15:53:00, Antigen wrote:
" But the people who run the place have a long and sordid history.
"
You don't know that to be true!
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DD...I would encourge you to keep considering Anchor Academy. Go there and visit. I will meet you there if that would help. Stick around for awhile and see what you see. Unlike many of the posters here, I think there are good programs out there and that Anchor happens to be one. I further don't think we are dummies that can't view and see and learn what is happening at any program.
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Does the term dog and pony show mean anything?
Theyre going to have the higher-level students around you, and youre going to be guided around on the tour and be given the whole song and dance. How it really is when a visitor isnt around vs how it is when theyre selling it to you are two totally different things.
I mean come on, any program is going to do a good job to sell it to you and show you what you want and have the good kids around to sell it. You wont be allowed to talk to the ones who dont like it and anyone with something bad to say wont be allowed to say it. If they let something bad slip while youre there then it would be an obvious no-sale... so keep your eyes peeled. This isnt about what YOU want to see, or YOU want to hear. Its not about your feelings and fears, its about your son.
But I degress. Any business will try its hardest to sell itself to you before you send your kid to their custody and give them money. Just keep your eyes open and be critical, and see how they respond to criticism.
The real test is what happens when the dad is gone, and the child is kept there and he cant leave, and cant tell anyone whats going on without going through monitored phone calls or mail :roll:
If you really MUST send him to a program, then at LEAST read up in this:
http://www.askquestions.org/articles/teens/ (http://www.askquestions.org/articles/teens/)
Also, a few bullet points here for you. One of them is visit in person, which pastor has recommended you to do. The two most important ones are as follows:
* Ask a lawyer to review enrollment contracts before signing them.
* And finally, stay in contact with the child throughout their stay in a residential facility so that you can move them out quickly at the first sign of trouble.
Stay in contact, and do not allow censorship, do not let them say things such as "any bad things said are made up to manipulate their way out" bla bla bla. If there is criticism, it should be rebutted and faced, not dismissed or pre-emptively discredited. Any calls are between you and him, and dont let someone listen in or be there to hang up or interrupt if he has a criticism or a grievance. Oh, and no censored mail... that being censored on the way in or out.
I realize that not all places are bad, as its extremely unlikely - but letting them hide it if it IS is hardly the responsible thing to do.It may be that our role on this planet is not to worship God, but to create him.
--Arthur C. Clarke, author
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Just because your son is doing things that you can't deal with now, doesnt mean he deserves the chance you are taking with his life.
It could end with a branch or improper restraining or koolaide for that matter. YOU just don't know. And any program will cover up anything negitive when you call or visit. Your kid will be scared to death (literally to death) to tell you if anything is wrong, once you send him away. I think the risk you are taking with your kid's LIFE is greater than any risk he is taking himself.
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Why the hell am I in the subtopic of all these posts? :???:
O senseless man, who cannot possibly make a worm and yet will make Gods by the dozen!
--Michel Eyqyem de Montaigne, French essayist
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On 2005-10-13 21:03:00, Pastor wrote:
"
On 2005-10-13 15:53:00, Antigen wrote:
" But the people who run the place have a long and sordid history.
"
You don't know that to be true!"
Yes, we do. Go read some about the Roloff Ministries and the damage they cause to hundreds of kids.
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EVEN IF the Roloff Ministries have a "long and sordid history" of poor treatment of youth -- and this doesn't deny (or affirm) that -- I've not seen any connection here, let alone a clear and continuing connection, between Anchor and the Roloffs.
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On 2005-10-14 05:51:00, Anonymous wrote:
"EVEN IF the Roloff Ministries have a "long and sordid history" of poor treatment of youth -- and this doesn't deny (or affirm) that -- I've not seen any connection here, let alone a clear and continuing connection, between Anchor and the Roloffs. "
Ok, ya know - you can get the facts just as well as the rest of us can. Whether you get them and what you choose to do with them is purely up to you.
Bottom line - if Anchor's Policies look like this list, there's a problem: http://www.isaccorp.org/warningsigns.html (http://www.isaccorp.org/warningsigns.html)
If you want to minimize the risk, rationalize the red flags and stick your head in the sand while blowing sunshine up the ass of an abusive program, that's your decision. Maybe your God will forgive you some day, as well as your kid.
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On 2005-10-14 01:04:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-10-13 21:03:00, Pastor wrote:
"
On 2005-10-13 15:53:00, Antigen wrote:
" But the people who run the place have a long and sordid history.
"
You don't know that to be true!"
No you don't, you are judging a separate organization or group by the actions of another. You are wrong, wrong. You do not know that Anchor Academy has a long and sordid history. How can you be so closed minded and judgemental.
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[/quote] :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
WOULD YOU PLEASE USE IT? You keep screwing up the formatting for the whole page!
We get crushed in the first three, four years of school...We're trained to become parrots. We're trained to learn information and give it back at test time. But we're not taught to think. We're not taught how to access genius.
--Victor Villasenor, author of Burro Genius (2004)
[ This Message was edited by: Nihilanthic on 2005-10-14 12:03 ]
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Cause I've seen this song and dance before. So have you, or at least heard or read about it. Remember manifest destiny? How fervently we of Western Christian heritage believed our murderous policies were the will of God, Almighty. How'd that work out for us, Pastor?
There's a special place in Hell for those who mislead the innocent.
...the coercive collectivist State is distinctly uninterested in the cultivation of intelligence and wisdom. This is understandable...for the State has no uses to which persons of intelligence and wisdom can be put.
--Albert Jay Nock.
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On 2005-10-14 05:51:00, Anonymous wrote:
"EVEN IF the Roloff Ministries have a "long and sordid history" of poor treatment of youth -- and this doesn't deny (or affirm) that -- I've not seen any connection here, let alone a clear and continuing connection, between Anchor and the Roloffs. "
Quick, Pastor, cover your eyes!!!
http://www.tsha.utexas.edu/handbook/onl ... froar.html (http://www.tsha.utexas.edu/handbook/online/articles/RR/froar.html)
BTW, this is the VERY FIRST hit if you google roloff anchor.
Any priest or shaman must be presumed guilty until proven innocent.
--Robert A. Heinlen, American science-ficiton author
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed Chicklett `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
10/80 - 10/82
Apostate 10/82 -
Anonymity Anonymous
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Oh, lookie here! Straight from the horse's ass
http://www.roloff.org/about/weare.htm (http://www.roloff.org/about/weare.htm)
Have you asked the nice people at Anchor if/how they're affiliated w/ Roloff?We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark. The real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.
--Plato
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My answer to you is:
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark. The real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.
--Plato
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On 2005-10-14 12:35:00, Antigen wrote:
"
On 2005-10-14 05:51:00, Anonymous wrote:
"EVEN IF the Roloff Ministries have a "long and sordid history" of poor treatment of youth -- and this doesn't deny (or affirm) that -- I've not seen any connection here, let alone a clear and continuing connection, between Anchor and the Roloffs. "
Quick, Pastor, cover your eyes!!!
http://www.tsha.utexas.edu/handbook/onl ... froar.html (http://www.tsha.utexas.edu/handbook/online/articles/RR/froar.html)
BTW, this is the VERY FIRST hit if you google roloff anchor.
Any priest or shaman must be presumed guilty until proven innocent.
--Robert A. Heinlen, American science-ficiton author
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed Chicklett `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
10/80 - 10/82
Apostate 10/82 -
Anonymity Anonymous"
Ginger, I didn't write that, but it is okay, I know the connection. So, Not everything that you think is bad, is! What about going and investigating instead of running everything down. Go and see. I would hate to be your enemy. Jesus was attacked because he was connected with sinners. You don't give anyone a chance. I have read all the posts...well at least a lot of them...and I find as many that were helped and speak up,as those that castigate the Roloff ministries. Sure there are churches that are bad, I don't discount all churches, you might. Sure there are programs that are bad, I don't discount all programs, you seem to want to do that. And, I know people, parents, ladies named Ginger and Pastors who are bad, but I don't discount all that have those afiliations. Come on, let's be fair. No, that doesn't seem to be a word that is used![ This Message was edited by: Pastor on 2005-10-14 13:23 ]
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Nice references to places that link Roloff and the "Anchor Home" --- BUT THAT IS NOT THE PLACE THAT STARTED THIS THREAD. Anchor Home was in Texas, then moved to Missouri, all according to the two links provided. That seems a far distance from where Anchor Academy is located.
It rather seems like (a) you didn't do your work carefully, (b) you don't really care about being right so long as you slam any kind of youth home/program, or (c) both a and b.
There is another (good) program in another state with a name that is similar to, but not the same as, an unrelated and different (as in totally different type) but not-recommendable program that has been hurt by the same lack of accuracy. At least that is in the same state. Here, we're talking a thousand miles or more.
So I repeat - no connection shown.
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On 2005-10-14 13:23:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Nice references to places that link Roloff and the "Anchor Home" --- BUT THAT IS NOT THE PLACE THAT STARTED THIS THREAD. Anchor Home was in Texas, then moved to Missouri, all according to the two links provided. That seems a far distance from where Anchor Academy is located.
It rather seems like (a) you didn't do your work carefully, (b) you don't really care about being right so long as you slam any kind of youth home/program, or (c) both a and b.
There is another (good) program in another state with a name that is similar to, but not the same as, an unrelated and different (as in totally different type) but not-recommendable program that has been hurt by the same lack of accuracy. At least that is in the same state. Here, we're talking a thousand miles or more.
So I repeat - no connection shown. "
Thats the biggest load I've heard in a while. Whats next, "Define is?" :rofl:
Ok, yes, the PLACE OF BUSINESS moved. The LOCATION changed. THAT DOESNT MATTER! Its the *PEOPLE* that we care about, and the affiliations between the people who run and operate these places and what umbrella they operate under. THOSE connections definitely matter, so what if they move around?
FYI: after some straight programs were closed, they changed their names and moved accross the street. Must be TOTALLY different, huh :roll: Heard of S.A.F.E. Orlando? Hey, why not go ask Helena Handbasket about KHK and LIFE?How often, or on what system, the Thought Police plugged in any individual wire was guesswork. It was even conceivable that they watched everybody all the time. But at any rate, they could plug in your wire whenever they wanted to.
George Orwell, 1984
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On 2005-10-14 13:07:00, Pastor wrote:
"My answer to you is:
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark. The real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.
--Plato"
Its the random quote bot, Pastor.
But uh... why are you saying that back to Ginger (er, or back to the quote bot? When it was humorously germane.. to you? We're not afraid of the facts coming out, and trying to keep everything under wraps. We're trying to make everything about the program transparent and prevent them from cutting off communication, and censoring and monitoring what communication that IS allowed and holding the programs accountable. So again, just who is afraid of the light?The first human who hurled an insult instead of a stone was the founder of civilization.
--Sigmund Freud
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Gee, I wonder why they deleted this page...
Google Cache
CHAPTER III - Faith
Brother Roloff's Testimony
Now, let me bear a personal testimony that I trust and pray will encourage God's people. My life of faith began one Wednesday night as I lay a very sick young man in the hall of that old ranch house in Navarro County in Central Texas. About ten o'clock that night I said, "Lord, if you're calling me to preach, I'll preach," and God gave me a real taste of peaceful sleep that I had not known in months. It was during the Great Depression and the times seemed impossible. After staying out of school a year following high school graduation and picking cotton in West Texas, I went off to Baylor University. I took my old milk cow to furnish milk for my board and room, and I had to guarantee three gallons a day. That was a step of faith!
My body was weakly and sick and one of the outstanding doctors in Waco recommended that I beat it back to the farm. However, my real ministry of faith did not begin until about eighteen years later when I began to take the Bible literally and believe that it meant what it said for today. It was about that time that I started reading it through each year on my knees and started believing God for my physical needs as well as the needs of the ministries into which he had led me.
Faith allows many tears and testings, but never puts up with a compromise. Faith constantly cuts away temporary pilings and is continually settling us on the pillars of eternal truth. Faith permits loneliness and heartaches and many misunderstandings. Faith is a pioneer. It keeps its subject constantly in the new ground. Faith is the Marine leathernecks making new beachheads. Faith demands a tough hide and a tender heart and a saw log for a backbone. Faith longs for only one thing, and that's the vindication of the Word of God.
We went on a two hundred and fifty watt radio station and got kicked off a few months later because we preached against liquor traffic, but the next day, we went on a fifty thousand watt station. Our church building burned down, known as the Park Avenue Baptist Church, six months after we bad been in Corpus Christi, and through much pressure and misunderstanding, we purchased the Furman Avenue site for fifty-five thousand dollars and built the Second Baptist Church.
There was a big corner of the property that belonged to the Sinclair Refining Company and we were hoping at a later date to get that when one morning my men came into the study and said, "They have started drilling holes for a Sinclair service station on the corner of our property," suggesting that it was too late to do anything. I said, "Let's pray." After prayer, I called New York City to Mr. Harry Sinclair's office and told them how disappointed we were and how much we had desired to have that property. At eleven o'clock, the men walked off of the job. And we bought another piece of property for fifteen thousand dollars and traded even with them for the property for which they had asked twenty-two thousand dollars. Oh, that was a real answer from heaven!
The old Park Avenue site that I was sincerely hoping to use for a day school was sold one night at the deacons' meeting while I was speaking at another church in town. When I went back to the deacons' meeting that had just concluded, one of the deacons told me that he knew I would be disappointed, but that the property was sold because they needed the money. The property consisted of 150' on Park Avenue, 250' on King Street with two houses, a two story garage, and a nice building that we called the Brotherhood Building. It had been sold for fifteen thousand dollars. But the next fall, through the kindness of Dr. Logan, we fixed up the old Brotherhood Building and started a Christian Day School with a kindergarten and first grade and, over a period of years, bought all that property and built the big brick building, over a hundred feet long, which housed the school and the Enterprises offices. It all seems like a dream and yet, simply a work of faith and labor of love.
May I right here say that this venture of faith was made possible through the patience, love, and confidence of Brothers Ben and Dale Davis. In thirty-seven years, the Park Avenue Day School was responsible for leading over a thousand people to Christ, teaching many precious children, and furnishing a place of service for consecrated teachers.
After seven years of a glorious Gospel ministry in the Second Baptist Church, and with a human desire to stay twenty years, the Lord, one night under Evangelist B. B. Crim's tent at Cuero, gave the order to cut loose and hit the trail of tent evangelism, a thing I had almost despised. And so, without a house to live in and without any money, we launched into a new ministry.
In just a little while, the Lord spoke to a layman in the Rio Grande Valley and told him to send us four thousand dollars as a loan for a down payment on a little frame home at 429 Naples Street in Corpus Christi. We paid back the loan in five years. He spoke to the friends of evangelism and our ministry, and in a little while, we had thirty thousand dollars worth of vans, a tent, and portable equipment which we used for over ten years.
Faith will allow no competition to Christ or the Word. "It is not mine to question the judgments of the Lord. It is but mine to follow the leading of His Word." When one questions the Word of God, the wisdom of God, or the goodness of God, he is immediately off of faith ground. When one begins to whine and murmur, complain and doubt, he is off the good old faith line. When one spends his time enumerating what he had to give up in order to live by faith instead of what he got by living by faith, he has missed the trail.
In 1944, one night in the deacons' meeting, I asked the deacons if they would be willing for me to launch out by faith on a fifty thousand watt radio station, fifteen minutes a day, five days a week. They said they would if I would have it understood that they would be released from any financial obligation. God honored that step of faith and it was not long until we were on six days a week for thirty minutes, and Sunday afternoon for one hour. But after eight years of glorious ministry and the building of a wonderful audience, we were told that we could no longer preach on this station because we were controversial. This was the severest and most sickening disappointment of our entire life.
Without a root of bitterness or a spirit of criticism, I relate this incident because I can see that Romans 8: 28 had its plow in the ground and also Philippians 1:12, "But I would ye should understand, brethren, that the things which happened unto me have fallen out rather unto the furtherance of the Gospel," even though it looked like we were in a complete blackout. Lifetime friends and schoolmates left us over night. This decision of the brethren was made public by the associated press in the newspapers and also in our church publications.
I was on the road in evangelism when the word reached me. I shall never forget the day in Henderson, Texas, when I made the announcement to the radio friends, with many tears. After the message, Mike Garcia, the Latin-American friend who traveled with me and watched the tent for a number of years, put his arms about me and pointed to the heavens and in broken English said, "Our Father will help Brother Roloff." I knew full well that He was the only one who could help me in that time of darkness.
Two years later, the station was sold and an unbeliever in Christ came and asked me if I would like to go back on to which I said, "Yes." So, for two more years we preached the Gospel, to be disappointed again by a letter saying the station was going to "total programming," which left the Gospel off. More time elapsed and I walked into the office of one of the owners and made request to go back on.
Now, in the meantime, I had to go to Alice, forty-five miles away, and Sinton, twenty-eight miles away, in order to have a radio ministry in my home town. The friend said they would like to have my contract and I agreed to borrow the money for a year's time in advance, but after weeks of waiting and no word, I walked into the studio and asked the reason why. I received this answer, "I'm sorry, but we have four beer accounts and they all said if you went on they would go off, therefore we must have their accounts instead of yours."
As I walked out of the studio that day, the Lord impressed me that He would give us that station. I walked rapidly to the my office and called my lawyer. I asked him to offer three hundred thousand dollars for the station to which he said, "Are you kidding?" I said, "I was never more serious in my life." I told him to offer just one thousand dollars as earnest money, cautioning him not to tell them who was buying the station.
I remind you that I didn't have any money at the time. Many of you will remember that we had just finalized a contract for one hundred thousand dollars for a broadcast on a Mexico border station which covered most of our nation and was being blessed of the Lord. (Mexico has since outlawed all religious programming.) This, of course, was a tremendous step of faith in itself, having to put up twenty-five thousand dollars every three months. But, oh, the letters and the testimonies!
In a few days, the lawyer said that he had a tentative contract for the 50,000 watt station for three hundred thousand dollars, with twenty-five thousand dollars earnest money. In no time at all, the Lord put into our hands the twenty-five thousand dollars, and in turn, it was put up for earnest money. The die was cast, the shore lines clipped, and the bridges burned. Another hundred thousand dollars had to be raised in three months and then the F.C.C. permit had to be given from Washington, D.C. God spoke to our friends.
The only thing personally I put into the station was five hundred dollars for five shares, and they were given to the Roloff Evangelistic Enterprises. The Enterprises could not buy the station. Other Christian friends bought the remainder of the stock and we named the station K.C.T.A. (Know Christ The Answer). So, on October 23, 1959, at five o'clock in the morning, we went on the air singing "In shady green pastures, so rich and so sweet, God still leads His dear children along." For two hours we testified and bragged on Jesus and praised His wonderful Name.
I feel like saying with Brother Paul, "O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen." Romans 11:33-36.
The Alameda Baptist Church was a real project of faith. Some friends and I put up twenty-five hundred dollars on seventy-five thousand dollars' worth of land, ten and four-tenth acres, without a church, without an organization, and months later we started just a plain simple Bible church. In our first meeting that Sunday afternoon, October 24, 1954, under a tent at 3401 South Alameda Street, a little band of Christians gave hundreds of dollars to missions, which was their first offering. In a few weeks we started the Good Samaritan Rescue Mission, the first rescue mission in Corpus Christi, spending some five hundred dollars a month for the down-and-outs before we ever had a church building of any kind. But God gave us a beautiful brick building with a seating capacity of sixteen hundred. I preached grace and we majored in evangelism and God blessed.
Another work of faith was the City of Refuge, which was begun as an extension of the Good Samaritan Rescue Mission. It was a farm-type home for alcoholics, narcotic addicts, and people who needed spiritual help. Some friends who lived near Lexington, Texas let us use some property they owned there in the sand hills of Lee County. Without a stick of lumber or barbed wire fence or well of water or any sort of improvement, this city came into being. God vindicated this worthy cause, and some former alcoholics and drug addicts are now preaching the glorious Gospel of Christ that will deliver from alcohol, drugs and any other sinful habit. Since its beginning in 1956 this "City with a soul" has been moved three times, ending up in Corpus Christi on the People's Baptist Church property in 1979. Many men have come to this Home and have been taught the way of life and have "gone back another way."
The greatest step of faith concerning the ministry of the City of Refuge was when the Lord led us to move it to Culloden, Georgia. A friend in Atlanta, whose father-in-law had been delivered from alcoholism under our ministry, took me to see the place which was a beautiful 273-acre estate with a magnificent old antebellum home, a log cabin, a few other buildings, a lake and many stately pine trees. When I first saw it, I told my friend that it was "too rich for my blood." The selling price was $185,000. But the Lord reminded me that the greatest interest in our ministry at that time was from people and preachers who were located in that area of the country. I was traveling a lot and preaching in churches in Florida, Georgia, Virginia, Tennessee, Alabama and the Carolinas. I could see it being used, not only for the alcoholics and narcotic addicts, but also for a beautiful place for preachers and friends and supporters who lived east of the Mississippi to come and join us for Bible Conferences and Camp Meetings. They would also be able to see that phase of the ministry firsthand.
But not wanting to go into a heavy indebtedness, I gave up and then God gave me the assurance that He did want us to have this place and assured me that it would be paid for in cash. The price had been lowered to $108,000. I went to the bank that was handling the estate and gave them five thousand dollars as a down payment. A radio station in Atlanta donated nine hours of radio time to tell of our burden and the need and by July 4, 1965 we lacked $38,000. On July 5 we owed $10,000, which was due on July 16.
We were holding a camp meeting on the property and many precious friends came with their tents, trailers and campers. I had asked the banker to bring the note on the property to the meeting, because I felt the Lord would provide the balance due so that we could burn the note at the noon meeting.
A man and his wife walked up to me and handed me a blank check that had been signed and said, "This is for whatever you still lack." We were debt free! I still remember what that dear couple said. "We believe this place must be debt free to set men free."
This was another reminder of the truth of the Scriptures that we had claimed so many times, "Now the just shall live by faith," and "Without faith it is impossible to please God."
The home for ladies, which is currently the Jubilee Home, was at one time a part of the City of Refuge. Even while it was located in Lexington, Texas, ladies who needed deliverance from alcohol and drugs were allowed to come. They were housed in separate dormitories from the men. At the time they were transferred to Corpus Christi, they were called "The Help-Hers Home", and later the name was changed to The Jubilee Home. Many of the ladies who came to this home experienced miraculous changes in their lives.
The Lighthouse for delinquent and drug addicted boys was also a project of faith that the Lord greatly blessed. It was started in the summer of 1958 forty miles down the Intracoastal Canal from Corpus Christi. The first few years it operated only during the summer months, but due to the increasing need of helping boys and young men on a continuing basis, it became a full-time ministry. The Lord continued to bless as more and more young men and boys came and were delivered from drugs and alcohol. Some were sent by judges and brought by probation officers. Many of these fellows who came as young men are now in full- time service for the Lord. Because of the wide range in the ages of the fellows who came, this home was eventually divided. The Anchor Home for Boys took in boys, age 9-17, and the Lighthouse continued with the young men ages 18-25.
The Anchor Home, originally known as the City of Refuge for Boys, was also relocated a few times, due to the donation of properties from friends of the ministry.
The Peaceful Valley Home, which was located amidst the citrus groves in the Rio Grande Valley of Texas was begun in 1964. This was a dream come true, to be able to provide a place for older Christians who had retired but had a desire to be in a community of other Christians and still be of use in a ministry, if only to be a prayer warrior for the other phases of the ministry.
One of the most well known and nationally-publicized homes the Lord led us to start is the Rebekah Home for Girls. It was begun in September, 1967 in the home of some dear friends in East Texas when they took in a teen-age unwed mother who had called us for help. More and more girls began to call and come, and within four months the home was moved to Corpus Christi. It, too, was in two locations before we purchased the property on Old Brownsville Road, which was also another tremendous step of faith.
Realizing the need for a permanent location for the Rebekah Home for Girls, we located a 79-acre tract of farm land a few miles out in the country west of Corpus Christi. The Lord impressed on my heart that this was the location He would have us purchase. The cost was $97,000. When our friend, Alfred Edge, a realtor, was instructed to contact the owner of the property, he asked me how we intended to pay for it. I immediately replied, "Cash!" When he asked me when we would have the money, I answered "September 1!" The Enterprises put up $5,000 earnest money and Alfred Edge deducted his commission. September was only three or four months away. We prayed. On September 1, 1968 a check in the amount of $84,373.76 was written to pay for the property where the first Rebekah Home dormitory would be built. Within a few years the Lord added more sections of adjoining property, totaling 557 acres.
The People's Baptist Church was organized in 1969. The first building that was built on the property that had been purchased for the Rebekah Home was a two story red barn for a cow, some goats and other farm animals. The second story was used for a hayloft. Since the Rebekah girls were living in house trailers at the time, there was no place for the church to meet, so the hay was cleared out, some carpet put down, and chairs put in the second floor of the barn. The People's Baptist Church met for services in the "Heavenly Hayloft" until the the last of June, 1970, at which time the first dormitory for the Rebekah girls was dedicated. Other dormitories were later built on the property, along with a church building, cafeteria, school building, and other buildings. Radio friends and supporters from several states came during their vacation times to construct the buildings. By the summer of 1979 the City of Refuge, the Help-Hers (now Jubilee Home for ladies), the big Lighthouse dormitory, and the Anchor Home for Boys were all located on this property.
Due to the restrictions of the State Welfare Department regarding taking care of unwed mothers in Texas, they were eventually moved to Hattiesburg, Mississippi to a dormitory we built there on property donated by a Christian friend in that area. This home was named Bethesda, which means House of Mercy.
The last big step of faith that I would like to share with you is the starting of Regeneration Reservation which ministers to and works with the American Indians.
In 1981, Mrs. Ann Murphy, a missionary who had worked among the American Indians for many years, had heard of our Homes in Corpus Christi and the Lord had used the ministry of the Homes to transform alcoholics and drug addicts into responsible citizens as they became Christians and submitted their lives to the Lord's leading. A majority of the people she had been working with were alcoholics. She came to visit and to see this work firsthand. After sharing her burden for these desperate people with me, I accepted her invitation to go and visit her mission field. Upon seeing these people, many of whom were in jail or were lying around on the ground drunk, I made the statement to her, "May God forgive me; I never knew this existed. We can and we must do something!"
I returned to Corpus Christi with a definite burden for these desperate people who are precious in God's sight. In February of 1982 the Roloff Evangelistic Enterprises made a down payment on nearly 70 acres of land near the Apache Indian reservation at Fort Thomas, Arizona. This was named Regeneration Reservation and they continue to minister to all tribes of American Indians.
The radio ministry, the Family Altar Program, had also expanded to as many as 200 stations across the nation at one time. Again, I remind you of the wonderful way the Lord blessed the radio ministry and used it to raise up friends who were inspired to also trust the Lord by faith as they invested in lives by helping to provide the funds to build and operate the homes for people in trouble.
I do not know of a work in this land that is more worthy of your prayers and support than this ministry. We would like to say more, but it would take another book to write the glorious story of all the Lord has done through people and with people who have submitted to His leading by faith.
In closing, let me suggest that if you want to live by faith, don't run with infidels and people who question the Word of God. Second, read the Bible through every year. Third, practice and exercise your faith. Don't attend a cold, modernistic church. Keep your eyes upon Jesus, the Author and Finisher of your faith. Memorize much of the Scripture and praise Jesus and testify for Him every day.
I find it as hard to stop writing as I did to start writing, but if this book has been a blessing to you, pass it on or get another one for a friend.
"Hold the fort, for I am coming,"
Jesus signals still;
Wave the answer back to heaven,
"By Thy grace we will."
Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet.
--Napoleon Bonaparte, French emperor
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http://www.gocorpuschristi.com/2001/mar ... 20351.html (http://www.gocorpuschristi.com/2001/march/15/today/localnew/20351.html)
Thursday, March 15, 2001
Corpus Christi-based home faces legal issues
Boy's home that moved to Montana has thousands of dollars in bills, legal fees
Associated Press
HELENA, Mont. - "Good intentions gone awry" might be the best explanation for the legal and financial troubles that have piled up on a church-based boys home that moved from Corpus Christi into Montana last summer.
The money troubles may force Anchor Academy out of the old Air Force radar base it thought would be home. Even if it leaves, big debts could follow it.
It has spent thousands of dollars repairing and renovating the long-empty buildings and has thousands more in unpaid bills. The parent church group could wind up liable for thousands more, possibly $100,000, to clean up heating oil that spilled in January.
The home is a branch of Roloff Homes, operated by the People's Baptist Church of Corpus Christi. Dennis McElwrath, who ran one of the homes there, bused about 30 boys to the old radar base in Maiden Valley northeast of Lewistown in August.
Why Montana? McElwrath cites the climate, the openness, the need to expand, the available, although rundown, facility.
Others say it was Montana's complete lack of authority to regulate such homes: Roloff Homes fought for years against regulation by Texas authorities and eventually won. Gov. George W. Bush arranged to let a church-operated accrediting association oversee such faith-based charities.
McElwrath had an oral agreement with Lewistown businessman George Berg to buy the radar base, but Berg filed for bankruptcy months before McElwrath arrived. Assuming he would soon own the place anyway, McElwrath began an enthusiastic construction project, until the state Commerce Department and the bankruptcy court ordered him to stop.
Oh no! Looks like the Corpus Christi Caller Times is in on the conspiracy.
Again, pastor, special place, all just for you and your kind.
When I started as a federal narcotics agent, the budget that we were working with, it was less than $5 million a year, and there was only 125 agents for the entire world to work the narcotic trade that we were fighting in those days. Times have changed. The gluttony has grown.
--Nick Navarro, former Broward, FL Sherrif
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In all seriousness, Pastor, did they lie to you or are you lying to us? It's got to be one or the other. Obviously, Dennis McElwrath knows damned well what the truth is. Did he fib to you? Or are you covering for him?
Either way, why? Jails and prisons are the complement of schools; so many less as you have of the latter, so many more you must have of the former
--Horace Mann
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(http://http://home.ripway.com/2004-8/154813/punkd.jpg)
:nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy: Faith, as well intentioned as it may be, must be built on facts, not fiction- faith in fiction is a damnable false hope.
--Thomas Edison, American inventor
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(http://http://home.ripway.com/2004-8/154813/Smoked.JPG)
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Nice work Ginger! I knew my gut was telling me to be afraid of these kind of people. It's good though, to feel your soul cry out for the safety and well being of others.
Pastor and Dad,
I hope you take a real clear look at any place you decide to support or send ANY child to. These kids are depending on someone, anyone to save them from abuse they can't even see clearly yet. Will you be there for them in 5, 10, or 20 years when the memories start to destroy their lives? We say alot here, but no matter what you may think, it is all said in the hopes another child will not be hurt like we have been.
Get on the right side, Fight with us to protect children. Help us pass laws to give children rights. Make an underground to rescue children from abusive facilities. Save these children, don't serve them a life sentence.
Be well and Harm NONE.
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I feel quite sure that pastor and dad do not want children abused. And you are right. Laws need to be changed. Especially the laws that do not allow parents to legallly let their teenager suffer the natural consequences of their behavior. If a child runs and a parent doesn't use all possible resources to find him and keep him at home, the parent is charged with abandonment, no matter how badly the teen says he doesn't want to be home and follow the rules. Parents have to "use every resource" to protect the child by law. Too often the only resource left is a program. It is not legal to let a kid hit rock bottom on their own and then make a decision if they want their parents help or not. Parents HAVE to stop the runaway. Kids know this. Yes...Laws MUST be changed, not only to protect the kids, but to help the kids learn from their own mistakes and to protect the parents that would like to let their child learn from life's experiences.
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On 2005-10-15 06:36:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I feel quite sure that pastor and dad do not want children abused. And you are right. Laws need to be changed. Especially the laws that do not allow parents to legallly let their teenager suffer the natural consequences of their behavior. If a child runs and a parent doesn't use all possible resources to find him and keep him at home, the parent is charged with abandonment, no matter how badly the teen says he doesn't want to be home and follow the rules. Parents have to "use every resource" to protect the child by law. Too often the only resource left is a program. It is not legal to let a kid hit rock bottom on their own and then make a decision if they want their parents help or not. Parents HAVE to stop the runaway. Kids know this. Yes...Laws MUST be changed, not only to protect the kids, but to help the kids learn from their own mistakes and to protect the parents that would like to let their child learn from life's experiences."
Either I missed the memo, or this is bullshit.
In many states, running away is no longer considered a criminal act. In some States, harboring a runaway is no longer a crime provided you do not deny the child is with you to law enforcement or parents; then it becomes kidnapping.
I know parents of run away kids here who have informed me that it can be legally difficult to force the child to return home. If the legal system gets involved in at all, Family Services and Family Court determine the child's fate, not the parents.
Go the Covenant House website and you will find stories about 'throw away' teenagers whose families refuse to allow them to return home. There is no mention of legal action against these parents.
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On 2005-10-14 13:26:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
"FYI: after some straight programs were closed, they changed their names and moved accross the street. Must be TOTALLY different, huh :roll: Heard of S.A.F.E. Orlando? Hey, why not go ask Helena Handbasket about KHK and LIFE?"
I was in LIFE (started by Helen Petermann -- one of the founding fathers of straight) and I was also in Bethel (started by Herman Fountain -- a Roloff disciple).
Helen Peterman not only slapped me silly, but ironically, she helped plan my kidnapping for my second trip to Bethel.
Bethel had a big portrait of the great "Brother Roloff" on the wall of their office when I was there. And when I drove by the place back in '96, the church door was wide open, and you could plainly see Roloff's picture on the wall just inside. I guess it's a good thing he died in a plane crash and wasn't crucified on a cross. Maybe they should all be wearing little airplanes around their necks.
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I was making that statement in reply to some asinine comment about how they moved the program around and thus its not connected to the original one.
I mean shit, its like if you're accused of murder, you change your name and move accross the street. Apparently if you run a program thats a-okay to some people.
But thanks for stopping by :wave: someone with first hand experience with the Roloffs is a welcome contributor to this thread. Although after Ginger basically whooped their ass, the only thing left for the anonymous programmite trolls to do is to totaly sidestep that issue, and open up a new one: "well if theyre out of control we got nothing else to use but a program". I just love their desperation tactics :lol: In any civilized society, it is every citizen's responsibility to obey just laws. But at the same time, it is every citizen's responsibility to disobey unjust laws.
--Martin Luther King
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http://www.intergate.com/~caaa/LET3_04.pdf (http://www.intergate.com/~caaa/LET3_04.pdf)
This past August I was privileged to travel to Havre Montana, to work at the Anchor Academy for Boys Camp (ACC) under the direction Pastor Trevor Spencer and Bro Dennis McElwrath, this ministry is a blessing for young men that have trouble with authority. Both Pastor Trevor and Bro. Dennis worked in the Roloff Ministries and saw a need for such a facility in the open fields of Montana. Located at a former AirForce Strategic Air Command Base the camp is renovating a vast number of structures.
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On 2005-10-14 14:07:00, Antigen wrote:
"In all seriousness, Pastor, did they lie to you or are you lying to us? It's got to be one or the other. Obviously, Dennis McElwrath knows damned well what the truth is. Did he fib to you? Or are you covering for him?
Either way, why?
Jails and prisons are the complement of schools; so many less as you have of the latter, so many more you must have of the former
--Horace Mann
"
Pastor? No comment? I bet this would surprise some of your congregation to find you speechless like this, huh?
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On 2005-10-15 10:53:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
"I was making that statement in reply to some asinine comment about how they moved the program around and thus its not connected to the original one.
I mean shit, its like if you're accused of murder, you change your name and move accross the street. Apparently if you run a program thats a-okay to some people.
But thanks for stopping by :wave: someone with first hand experience with the Roloffs is a welcome contributor to this thread. Although after Ginger basically whooped their ass, the only thing left for the anonymous programmite trolls to do is to totaly sidestep that issue, and open up a new one: "well if theyre out of control we got nothing else to use but a program". I just love their desperation tactics :lol: "
I realize that. Unlike a lot of people, I actually read thru the thread before posting.
Actually, I was thinking of Growing Together but I now see you were talking about Kids Helping Kids. I don't really know the exact history of that place, but I do remember hearing about Growling Together when I was at LIFE. I know it's not exactly the same as a program moving and changing their name. Growing Together was really just an offshoot of LIFE, much like LIFE was an offshoot of Straight.
And Bethel (AKA Bethel Academy, Bethel Children's Home, Eagle Point Christian Academy, etc.) is just another Roloff cult. I think it pretty plainly illustrates the pattern that these places all seem to follow. You'd think they would have learned some new tricks by now.
I guess Pastor is too busy praying to Roloff right now to reply. Then again, maybe not. Publically renouncing your faith in your god would be a sin.[ This Message was edited by: TimeBomb on 2005-10-15 15:20 ]
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What does faith in god have to do with faith in some chode named Roloff? ::cheers::
Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived.
--Isaac Asimov, Russian-born American author
Edit: I did *NOT* pick that quote, thats the bot being a wiseass, I swear![ This Message was edited by: Nihilanthic on 2005-10-15 15:35 ]
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On 2005-10-15 15:34:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
"What does faith in god have to do with faith in some chode named Roloff? :roll: I think thats the biggest lesson for this type to learn... god is not the middle man whose directly telling you to do this and that whose just a human just like you!
"
What I meant was, if he was a true Roloff worshipper, he probably wouldn't be so quick to deny his god (Roloff).
But, I think guilt by association applies. Cops, doctors, judges, politicians, etc., who lend their support to these places, may very well be the biggest thing that keep these gulags in business. The same goes for pastors who will stand up for a place, because they paraded some kids in front of the congregation.
When I was at Bethel, they took us to a Church in Pensacola. There were a few of the most "well behaved" kids that stood up and talked about what a great blessing Bethel had been to them. Of course they didn't say a word about being beaten if they failed to memorize their daily scripture verse in 5 minutes, or that if any one of us tried to walk out of that church they'd send a hunting party after them and bring them back with black eyes. Then the runner would get beaten bloody with fat green stick a yard long. Hell, I got the 10 licks once just for talking about running.
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So ... Anchor does have a link to Roloff Ministries?
OMG, that sucks.
:scared: :scared: :scared:
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Edit: I did *NOT* pick that quote, thats the bot being a wiseass, I swear![ This Message was edited by: Nihilanthic on 2005-10-15 15:35 ]"
It's Crazy Mac! Spooky guy sometimes! :smile:
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I was a student from Anchor Academy I didn't graduate from the program and i definitely didn't leave on good behavior most of the time i went through hell but there was those good moments. I had a high rank i was over most of the students then i fell off, and lost rank. Yes, too all those that wonder if theirs abuse but to an extent. From my experince, if there was camera's when I got in trouble there would be every military service there to save me. But you would never see it and most of the time theres no proof. You can win against them. Because of there spiritual background and those in high rank that will have there back. When I was in rank anything they told me to do it would be done on the double. It's very well organized like the mob for example, you just won't win. Almost untouchable, because of there background. Think about it
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What type of abuses did you see/experience at Anchor? When were you there? What can you tell us about Brother McElwrath?
Thanks in advance...
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Niles, Desperate Dad IS posting on Stuggling Teens asking about Anchor Academy. He MIGHT NOT be encourged to send his kid to ANCHOR, but he WILL be encourged to send this kid to some wilderness program and long-term treatment facility. You can count on THAT!
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Oh, I know. I have an account there. Im just not gonna bother emailing him because hes made it abundantly clear he chooses to block out what he does not want to hear.
Nice example of "Accountability", sir. :roll: Government exists to protect us from each other. Where government has gone beyond its limits is in deciding to protect us from ourselves
--Ronald Reagan
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That's how it is sometimes, you all have read about my time in a program. Yet my parents still can't face what they did to me.
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THIS retard cant face what hes GOING TO DO! ARGH!
Dont you want to tear your hair out sometimes?A student burst into his office. "Professor Stigler, I don't believe I deserve this F you've given me." To which Stigler replied, "I agree, but unfortunately it is the lowest grade the University will allow me to award."
--Professor Stigler
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I was sent to Anchor academy a year after they moved from Lewistown to the radar base. My guides would tell me about all the times they got into trouble and the things they told me,if you really want to know about the abuse ask about red shirt. The name Eric M.is nortorious around there. Probably not anymore because people from my generation arent there anymore,but if you could witness what happened to him you would stop askng question and seek only justice. So when they ever threaten you with red shirt it almost was compared to someone threatening to kill you and your family. The legacy has to still be heard around, everyone has there own version but I was there I got to take some shifts of watching him, which was I good thing for me so that mean't Brother Dennis was trusting me more,so I wasn't going to dissappoint him. I didn't care at the time about Eric M. I just wanted higher rank. That's the down fall of the program, people put up the only front just to get rank. I was real about my convictions and my testimony. I'm not going to say I'm the greatest christian, I don't have all the same convictions but you should dig a little deeper if you want the truth that's all I can help you with.
------------------------------------------------
May GOd open your eyes to whats right in front of your face.
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On 2005-10-17 17:08:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
"THIS retard cant face what hes GOING TO DO! ARGH!
Dont you want to tear your hair out sometimes?A student burst into his office. "Professor Stigler, I don't believe I deserve this F you've given me." To which Stigler replied, "I agree, but unfortunately it is the lowest grade the University will allow me to award."
--Professor Stigler
"
Hmm. No, can't say I do. But I'll help with yours if you'd like. :razz:
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Anon poster who went to Anchor.
Help us more with finding the TRUTH about Anchor Academy, "BROTHER" Dennis, and what happened to Eric and the "red shirt issue."
You can google Anchor Academy, the names of the owners etc. yourself--and not much can be found.
These people seem to be doing a good job at hiding things. The Roloff connection is there FOR SURE.
Internet information: a bunch of BS about "wind generated electricity," and a bunch of boys singing in a choir, going from church to church begging money for the school.
We aren't Private Detectives here, but give us information; and if kids are being abused there, you will see something happening to expose this school in every way possible! Government agencies will be contacted, local and state; as will the media.
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Former Anchor student. Why don't you register under SOME name, like Former Anchor Student, or whatever you choose; then you could receive private messages.
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"Oh no! Looks like the Corpus Christi Caller Times is in on the conspiracy.
Again, pastor, special place, all just for you and your kind. "
So, what is wrong with this Post in the Helena paper. Who is saying that they lied about anything. The article says they are/were having trouble with the acquisiton of the faciliteis. [ This Message was edited by: Pastor on 2005-10-19 12:00 ]
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Pastor read that article again:
Key points--it IS a branch of the Roloff ministries!
Montana's lack of autority to regulate such schools.
Are you just choosing to ignore these key points?
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Come on, Pastor. Think. I sort of wish the Baptist church was structured a little more like other mainstream denominations. That way, 'Pastor' would be short hand for a fairly reliable body of education and certification. But, as it is, I have no idea what your background is or your education.
Did you go to some sort of seminary? Have you any formal or informal training in human behavioral science like the Presby pasors usually have?
I'm asking because I just have a hard time understanding how you could be so niave. Unrepentant child abusers jump state and set up yet another facility where they have unrestricted access to more children. And you seem to just take their word for it that they've been cured of their evil ways, even when kids who have been there since the move try to tell you, from their firsthand experience, that this is just not so.
By what formula do you decide to believe the unrepentant child abusers over the abused children?
G: "If we do happen to step on a mine, Sir, what do we do?"
EB: "Normal procedure, Lieutenant, is to jump 200 feet in the air and scatter oneself over a wide area."
-- Somewhere in No Man's Land, BA4
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"Key points--it IS a branch of the Roloff ministries!
Montana's lack of autority to regulate such schools.
Are you just choosing to ignore these key points?"
No, I am not igonoring those points. Have you ever tried to run a program under the juridiction of state regulations? You who post on this site agree that state institutions are not safe either so we don't want to get into that. There are some things that state government regulations are so strict on you can't afford to do them. So, Montana has a lesser control. That certainly doesn't mean that Anchor is doing wrong. If they are, then it will be found out and they will be shut down. Found out, it the questions. What does that mean? Found out in my opinion is that they are found to be harming the students in abuse or neglect. Discipline and rules are not harming and neglecting. The post from a former Anchor student only infers things and doesn't say anything. I wish he would contact me so I can know if what he is saying was abuse and if so, it needs to be uncovered.
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Come on, Pastor. Think. I sort of wish the Baptist church was structured a little more like other mainstream denominations. That way, 'Pastor' would be short hand for a fairly reliable body of education and certification. But, as it is, I have no idea what your background is or your education.
Did you go to some sort of seminary? Have you any formal or informal training in human behavioral science like the Presby pasors usually have?
Antigen wrote: "I'm asking because I just have a hard time understanding how you could be so niave. Unrepentant child abusers jump state and set up yet another facility where they have unrestricted access to more children. And you seem to just take their word for it that they've been cured of their evil ways, even when kids who have been there since the move try to tell you, from their firsthand experience, that this is just not so.
By what formula do you decide to believe the unrepentant child abusers over the abused children? "
It is not just Baptists that are in question here. We are independent to a degree but hopefully we have the sense to police ourselves. Don't turn the tables and start to question anyone that questions your view. Right is right and wrong is wrong, no matter who or what. Truth is also truth and so is slander, slander.
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This thread is confusing, but I think what I see what you're trying to say here Pastor. Correct me if I'm wrong:
"Yes, Anchor Academy is connected to one of the most abusive, cram-the-bible-down-your-throat-under-coercion gulag chains in the history of the world, but there is no connection."
[ This Message was edited by: TimeBomb on 2005-10-19 18:10 ]
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***Have you ever tried to run a program under the juridiction of state regulations?
Have you, Pastor?
***You who post on this site agree that state institutions are not safe either so we don't want to get into that.
That's right, and 99% of the time it's because they are in violation of regs- illegal restraint being top of the list, medical neglect, out right abuse too. While many violations in programs are frequently overlooked, ocassionally it happens that someone's conscience is working and they do the right thing. Or they can no longer cover for the program's faults and are forced to take action to save face with the public. Without that authority, they have no power to take any action.
***There are some things that state government regulations are so strict on you can't afford to do them. So, Montana has a lesser control.
No sir, you're wrong. Any decent set of state regs will include a process for applying for a waiver/variance if the facility can not afford to comply with a particularly 'expensive' rule. They have the option of showing they can meet the intent of the rule in a less expensive way OR will be given very 'ample' time to come into compliance.
***Discipline and rules are not harming and neglecting.
That is relative. Some would consider your suggeston to withhold dinner as punishment to be neglect. While you may get away with that as a parent, institutions that care for children 24/7/365 are not allowed to do such things.
Where are you acquiring your education on this topic?
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Pastor... uh... what point are you trying to make? It reads like and feels like youre blathering and squirming and saying nonsense and avoiding the point... that it IS related and connected to the Roloffs.
It is not just Baptists that are in question here. We are independent to a degree but hopefully we have the sense to police ourselves. Don't turn the tables and start to question anyone that questions your view. Right is right and wrong is wrong, no matter who or what. Truth is also truth and so is slander, slander.
So uhhh yeah. Youre saying we should just "believe" in them to police themselves? :rofl:
Cos thats the only thing I can make out from that blathering nonsense you posted.
Please, try to CLEARLY make a point next time, so that we wont have to sit and scratch our heads over this. Also, the whole... uh... "thing" about "dont turn the tables and question anyone that questions your view" and "right is right" (etc)... okay? You said a bunch of nonsense.
No shit, x = x. They're related, and you cant face up to that so you just say a bunch of crap. Come on man, fess up and admit to it.
And no, 'self regulating' doesnt work. We have cops for a reason. A man is accepted into a church for what he believes and he is turned out for what he knows.
--Samuel Clemens "Mark Twain", American author and humorist
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Pastor wrote:
***Discipline and rules are not harming and neglecting.
Ok, rule #1. You must confess to the entire group your innermost sexual secrets and fantasies. You must search your mind daily, constantly for any errant thoughts of a sexual nature and confess to all the other messed up kids and all of the adults in attendance. In order to ensure compliance, those kids and adults can badger and berate you. And you'd best just suck it up and not try to defend yourself. Walking out of the room is not an option either.
There now, it's a rule.
There once was a rule that certain persons born of certain ethnic stock and who's names appeared on certain ownership documents must do whatever the owner instructed, bar nothing. Hey, it was a rule. How could it possibly be abusive or neglectful. Nothing wrong with a little structure and discipline, eh?
Penalties against possession of a drug should not be more damaging to an individual than the use of the drug itself
--Jimmy Carter
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There is no way around it. Absolute power over anything becomes corrupt. You can't totally control every facet of someones natrual life and expect it to be doing good.. no matter how you look at or in what ~name you think your doing it for. No matter how you label it, it is abusive and degrading to human souls. Power=corruption, period.
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I have not read through these (many) pages discussing this home for boys. But I will tell you what I know.
I was sent to Mountain Park Baptist Boarding "Academy" in 1994. I was 13. It was the most horrific 2 years of my life. My childhood was taken away from me by people who were in a position of power over young people who were helpless. Thank GOD that place has since been shut down through the hard work and dedication of former students who would not stand for any more kids to be abused by them. I will say that the owners' daughter and son-in-law of the facility were generally fairly kind to me, (The Gerhardts). On a side note, Dennis did work there at the time that I was there, although I had minimal interaction with him because the male workers did not have anything to do with the female students.
My mom finally brought me home and I was attending a Baptist church school using the ACE curriculum. I will tell you that I remember more from high school than most people my age. I did learn quite a bit using that curriculum. Some people are not good at independent study, fortunately for me, I am.
My mom sent me to another boarding school after bringing me home for only 7 months. This school was in Missouri also (like Mountain Park). It had some of the same methods as far as locking us in, ACE, Bible study, modest dress, etc. However, the couple who ran it and their family were incredible. I credit much of who I have become today with what I was exposed to there. I do not call myself a Christian, although I do believe in Christ. I do not go to church, as I am of the opinion that we were not created to sit in a church with a bunch of hypocrites, but to go out and enjoy the Earth that God created.
The second school I went to was run by Dennis McElwrath's aunt. His mother worked there also. They loved the girls there. They wanted to help us. I still talk to Dennis' aunt about twice a year. I love her dearly and I love her family.
So basically, I believe that Dennis has the best intentions in helping these kids. Yes there are abusive homes out there and its so unfortunate for the rare few who truly want to help people.
I am anonymous because I am not registered on here, not because I was put up to posting or whatever. Thanks.
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So Dennis McElwrath worked at this abusive Mountain Park, huh? And he also is connected to the abusive Roloff Ministries.
Well, BROTHER Dennis may have a NICE Aunt and Mom, but his "history of working in abusive programs" speaks LOUDLY about what is probably going on at Anchor Academy!
Doesn't that concern you, just a little?
You can easily register here using an anonymous name. Most people do not use their given names.
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To the Poster "praising BROTHER DENNIS:"
A reader only needs to "google" Mountain Park Baptist Academy to get a real EYE FULL!!!
Articles written in the Wayne County Journal-Banner decribes an EXTREMELY ABUSIVE SITUATION!
The founder of Mountain Park is Rev.Bob Will whose reputation in Hatiesburg, Mississippi is well-known at the Bethesda Home for Girls, which was closed for its abusive treatment of students.
A student at Mountain Park was awarded $20,000 in a suit for abuse he suffered by an employee.
WORESE YET: A student at Mountain Park, Joseph Burris, received a life sentence with no parole when he "repeatedly slit a fellow student's throat...."
Seems BROTHER McElwrath just surrounds himself around ABUSIVE SCHOOL SITUATIONS, young lady!!!!
Mountain Park has been charged with denying students outside communications...limitations on bathroom breaks...sleep deprevation...excessive corporal punishment.
Do you honestly expect anyone to believe these SAME tactic are not being used at Anchor Academy?
NOW, what was the name of this OTHER WONDERFUL school that the Aunt ran that you attended that was run by the McElwraths?
And tell me: Who DID ask you to post here?
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hey bro i was in the academy for 4 yers you want info ask me my e-mail is cleon@@mindspring.com
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sorry it's [email protected] and i know everything that happened from eric M. to david L etc... i was there for 4 years and i knew how everything worked from staff to students i knew every student all the way up to 2 years ago almost i know about the abuse and everything i will tell if asked so e-mail me if you want my knowledge of the anchor academy for boys in havre montana who used to be in lewistown montana and corpus christi texas.
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Why don't you register here so you can receive private messages?
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What types of abuse happened at these facilities?Was Dennis McElwrath directly involved in the abuse against these boys? That's the concern: this man is now at Anchor Academy!
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I had said I was not going to post here again, it is a futile effort. But I must answer this post. Overlord is the one who contacted me to read this posts and I answered on my own. The inference that Anchor Academy put me up to this is unfounded. Second, I don't know Deniis McElrath. I can't defend him or curse him because I don't know him. He has a good Mom and a good aunt is all I know. I also know, now that he has been connected to some abusive homes.
What I do see is that once you are even identified in any way with some group that this forum is attacking you turn the tables and start to attack the person or persons who even try and defend wrong judgement. All I have said in this entire forum is to not judge Anchor without facts and mere suspision or afiliation.
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dude i know dennis i told you if you want info so bad i can tell you everything about him i know his mom and his dad they know me everyone in the program knows who i am because i was there so long and i will tell you it wasn't pretty but dennis is a good guy again YOU WANT INFO JUST FREAKEN ASK ME E-MAIL ME!
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I had said I was not going to post here again, it is a futile effort. But I must answer this post
:rofl: Dont let the door hit ya on the way out...
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there i registered you can aim me or email me or do whaever you want for information
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On 2005-10-21 08:20:00, Pastor wrote:
"I had said I was not going to post here again, it is a futile effort. But I must answer this post. Overlord is the one who contacted me to read this posts and I answered on my own. The inference that Anchor Academy put me up to this is unfounded. Second, I don't know Deniis McElrath. I can't defend him or curse him because I don't know him. He has a good Mom and a good aunt is all I know. I also know, now that he has been connected to some abusive homes.
What I do see is that once you are even identified in any way with some group that this forum is attacking you turn the tables and start to attack the person or persons who even try and defend wrong judgement. All I have said in this entire forum is to not judge Anchor without facts and mere suspision or afiliation. "
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.
You know full and damn fucking well how hard it is to get actual INFORMATION out of a program because of the nature of how they operate.
No, Im not going to repeat it to you AGAIN, if you honestly cant figure it out enumerating it, AGAIN, would be a waste of my time.
Suspicion is enough to arrest a INDIVIDUAL or throw a kid into a program, but not enough to even critically look at a program itself? Lovely double standard Buddy!
Also, because nobody will investigate it, Id say to turn away from it. Youre saying if its a business that touts jesus they get a slap on the wrist? If not, then what?
Furthermore, Id say the facts from the mouth (well, keyboarding hands) of someone who went there do pretty good myself, wouldnt you?
Affiliation certainly matters with the industry when people operate just like the school they split off from or the network theyre connected to, and suspicion is plenty to go by when NOBODY WHOSE SUPPOSED TO INVESTAGE DOES THEIR FREAKING JOBS.
So, again, Pastor, youre just throwing up chaff becuase you cant admit youre wrong, or anchor is wrong. I tried to use your excuses on someone who is accused of selling or using drugs, and Id love to see your reaction to that. Probably "send the druggie away" or the "dealer to jail", right?I do not consider it an insult, but rather a compliment, to be called an agnostic. I do not pretend to know where many ignorant men are sure.
--Clarence Darrow, American lawyer
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What do you mean "it wasn't pretty," and Dennis is a good guy?
We can all pull up sites and read the internet!
BROTHER DENNIS: worked at Mountain Park and while there Joseph Burris cut the throat of another student, 16 year old William Andrew Futrelle.
And: While David Luna was on RED SHIRT punishment--being made to do "squats" while he held a weight over his head, Luna threw the weight at his "tormenter'" hitting him in the head. Believe Luna was tried for manslaughter.
Eric M. was on RED SHIRT for what? a couple of months?
And GOOD OLE DENNIS is the Superintendent of this fine "SCHOOL?"
Why not explain what RED SHIRT is, instead of trying to tell everyone what a "GOOD FELLOW" Dennis is?
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Pastor, Dennis McElwrath has worked at some abusive schools: Roloff, Mountain Park. Now people are complaining about Anchor Academy; and discussing such thing as "Red Shirt" punishment.
Lots of people have a nice mother. That is a totally meaningless statement.
Did you ever see an interview with Jeffrey Dahmer's mother? She was a seemingly nice lady, and was even a psychologist. AND LOOK HOW HER SON BEHAVED!
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How about the education at Anchor Academy?
Do they attend actual classes? Are they taught by certified teachers?
Are the credits transferable when these boys return home?
What about the religious aspects of Anchor Academy? Do the students have "freedom of religion" at Anchor Academy? Are they forced to participate in the religious practices of BROTHER Dennis? What happens if the boys refuse? Are they punished, put on RED SHIRT for not participating?
How about some TRUTHFUL ANSWERS to these questions?
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well, there seems to be a lot of folks here with a lot of time on their hands and a lot of bitterness. I have read a lot of heresay, but no actual facts of BAD things that have happened. I think you guys need to go and get jobs!!
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A kid with a slit throat, and another kid charged with manslaughter...all under the supervision of Dennis McElwrath sounds rather factual! And this man is still supervising children at Anchor Academy? He's the one who needs another job---AWAY FROM CHILDREN.
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Did Dennis slit his throat?? When you are dealing with disturbed or rebellious youth things happen!!!
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On 2005-10-21 15:28:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Did Dennis slit his throat?? When you are dealing with disturbed or rebellious youth things happen!!!"
The question is, "What exactly made the kid "disturbed"?
You know, Pastor and the other supporters - you are amazing - you want to blame kids for being kids, toss them into an isolated, prison type environment, and then you wonder why they fight back.
There is no due process. No evidence is required for admission. The only requirement is based on the the word of the parent(s). What do you do when the parent(s) are the problem?
What steps do you take to make sure the parents aren't the problem in the first place?
Maybe you should grab your WWJD bracelet and ask yourself that question!
You most likely support the war in Iraq, no? You know - because your own freedom was threatened? That's all well and good, but let some wrongfully accused (and yes, there are wrongfully accused kids) kid try to fight back, and all of the sudden, "SEE! LOOK! They ARE Little Criminals!
This is how you bolster your position. You drive a kid to the breaking point, then you feel vindicated when they take a stand and fight back. That makes you right.
You ever wonder what happens to a kid when they're forced to go to extreme measures? You think they live out the rest of their lives smugly, without a second thought to the innocent lives they damaged in order to attempt to drive a point home to your deaf ears? Do you?
Of course not. It's all about control for you, and an "uncontrollable kid" is a "bad kid"
.
Tell me... tell all of us -- what would you do if your home was ransacked tonight and you were tossed in a private jail, - where anyone can do whatever they want to you, because there is no regulation - on a someone's word alone? You're not allowed to provide evidence, and you're not allowed to defend yourself - because being "defensive" just proves to the powers that be, that you are guilty.
So what do you do?
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NO, but it is Dennis's JOB to be supervising these kids! And it is Dennis's obligation to not have KIDS supervising KIDS! And, these schools know these children are "troubled," so they need therapy, supervision. That is HIS JOB, and there is no excuse for this happening.
What's next: THIS WAS GOD'S WILL?
Give me a F....ing break.
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On 2005-10-21 07:10:00, Anonymous wrote:
"What types of abuse happened at these facilities?Was Dennis McElwrath directly involved in the abuse against these boys? That's the concern: this man is now at Anchor Academy!"
To my knowledge (I was not one of the boys at Mountain Park) Dennis was very good to them. He also LEFT there, from what I understand because of things going on there that he did not agree with.
Mountain Park was a HORRIBLE place. I did not say anything defending it. All I said was that the people who are most commonly named as offenders were never mean to *me* personally. Most of the abuse and anguish I suffered was at the hands of Mr and Mrs Wills, and a few of their staff members. If you also do some research, you will find many former students who still have good things to say about some of the staff. Many of the staff have contacted us apologizing for the abuse they put us through. Mountain Park, at least on the girls' side, was a brainwashing institution. I believe that is why Dennis left...
Regardless, I am not on here to support lockdown schools. I think they're horrible, and I have talked many a parent out of sending their troubled children away. Out of the over 50 parents I have talked to, not ONE sent their kid to boarding school.
My only intention in posting on here was to say what I know about a man who I believe truly wants to help other young men. I hope I am not wrong.
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Excuse me!!! Dennis McElwrath moved students FROM Mountain Park in Missouri TO Anchor Academy in Montana.
That is a FAR CRY from him leaving an abusive facility "because of things going on there that he did not agree with."
He was part of the problem there and he is the SUPERINTENDENT at Anchor Academy NOW!
ABUSE IS ABUSE young lady, and you can not excuse it away for BROTHER Dennis.
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Do you think having staff apologize for abusing minor children is adequate? Abusing children is ILLEGAL!!!!!
Child Abusers do not get a "legal pass" just by saying "sorry."
You may forgive them; but they must to answer in a court of law.
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Seems like BROTHER DENNIS has been busy gathering up "students" to post here about what a GOOD GUY he is, huh?
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when's one of these students going to explain what red shirt is all about, and why dennis has not put a stop to that?
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I was a student at the Anchor Academy in 2001 and 2002. I just missed Dave
L., but I heard stories about him when I came in. I was at Anchor while Eric
M. was there. I was one of the guys that watched him and I probably watched
him the most. I remember red shirt very well. I remember the details. One of
the scariest things of my whole stay at the Anchor happened at this time.
Eric M. stabbed Chris L. with a school compass. When this happened, Eric was
immediately restrained. After he was restrained, the staff searched his
locker and his bed and found a 12 inch knife that he had stolen from the
kitchen. This is when I really felt scared. I guess they did invade his
privacy by looking for this, but I sure felt relieved by this situation.
Eric was then made to sleep away from the rest of us to ensure our safety.
On red shirt Eric M. was told to do basic calisthenics and running, which he
refused to do. One day I remember watching him for the afternoon, and all
that he did was lie down and sleep for 9 hours while not a single hand was
laid on him else wise.
I have read through this whole forum, and I know information that could help
some of you with your concerns. I can only give you information about the
Anchor Academy because that is the only home my parents have placed me in.
Some of the things said in this forum are not 100% accurate, and I would
like to discuss them.
#1 CBIDWK posted on 2005-09-29-9:40:00
****About the tuition of the Academy being $1000****
The tuition was $850 during my stay at the Anchor, and at the end of my stay
it was raised to $1000, but only for those who could afford to pay. There
were a lot of cases where parents would drop off some of the guys and not
pay a single dime for tuition. We could tell who these kids were because
they never got letters or packages from home and were always getting
presents from the staff at Anchor.
#2 OVERLORDD posted on 2005-10-03-8:36:00
****That he hates people who break up families****
Most of us (including myself) didn't ever give a crap about our families. I
didn't like my mom or dad. Bro Dennis really encouraged us to have a
relationship with them and help bring our families back together.
#3 ANON posted on 2005-10-03-9:43:00
****Our phone calls and mailed were monitored and censored****
Once every two weeks my parents would call, and I was allowed to freely
speak to them with nobody listening in or telling my what I could and could
not say. Bro Dennis aloud me to say whatever I wanted about him or the
program with no consequences for doing so. I was not, however, to back talk
or disrespect my parents. If I was doing that and a staff walked by, the
call was ended. All my letters to my parents are at their home and have not
been edited at all.
#4 OVERLORDD posted on 2005-10-03-15:06:00
****In this post OVERLORDD gave his definition of abuse****
During my stay in the Academy, I never experienced any type of abuse nor did
I see anyone else experience any type of abuse. One thing that OVERLORDD did
mention as abuse was restraint. There were incidents where the staff used
passive restraint to control one of us, myself included.
#5 OVERLORDD posted on 2005-10-09-9:40:00
****stated that only the good ones go on trips****
This is as far fetched as a statement there could be. In October of 2001, we
ALL went on a month long tour in California, and again in April we ALL went
to Tennessee. There were other shorter trips, that only a few selected kids
went on, but these are two while I was in the program that we went on as a
group.
#6 HELENA HANDBASKET posted on 2005-1-13-14:11:00
****we were forced to believe their religious teachings****
The Anchor did teach us the Bible, but there were always kids that didn't
except it. We were never beaten for not believing or told that we were crap
if we didn't believe. They never proselytized us nor forced us to believe
what they taught.
#7 ANON posted 2005-10-14-13:23:00
****the Academy was in Missouri****
The Academy was in Corpus Christi, TX and moved from there to Lewistown, MT
and then to Havre, MT, where I believe it is still in operation. Bro Dennis
always told us that the reason they moved from Texas to Montana was because
of the issue of State Licensing. When the State would license a home such as
the Anchor, Bro Dennis said it would violate the principle of separating the
church from the state. Never did I hear of any abuse claims or accusations
in Texas nor were there ever stories among the guys of such abuses. If you
want to find out more about this, you would have to look up the changing
laws in Texas at the time of the move, and also look for claims of child
abuse against the Anchor in Texas.
#8 ANON posted 2005-10-21-14:23:00
****asked whether or not there are certified teachers, credits are
transferable, and if they attend actual classes****
There are two certified teachers in the school. The credits are
transferable. I am actually a senior at college, going to college with the
diploma I got from Anchor. Many of the guys went home and graduated from
public high schools with the credits from Anchor. As to the questions of
whether or not we attended classes, the answer is YES! But only for elective
classes. The other classes were taught to us on a individual basis through
the ACE curriculum.
After living at the Academy under the supervision of Bro. Dennis McElwrath,
it is hard for me to even imagine the picture that has been painted of him.
Bro. Dennis has my utmost respect and support for his love and concern for
youth in America and his willingness to give of himself for my sake and
others that have attended the Anchor Academy.
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Welcome to fornits BROTHER DENNIS...HA!
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How does one become a "BROTHER?" What does that title mean anyway?
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What IS red shirt, and why are kids supervising kids?
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You know the phone calls home were recorded. Why lie? Did you see the boy physically throw over the chairs for not closing his eyes during prayer? Were you there watching when Eric M. drank the bleach after 2 months of RED SHIRT? Rule: You follow the religious practices at Anchor, OR ELSE!
Come on...kids are talking and telling the TRUTH about Anchor.
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No reply to these questions?
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On 2005-10-21 21:12:00, Anonymous wrote:
"You know the phone calls home were recorded. Why lie? Did you see the boy physically throw over the chairs for not closing his eyes during prayer? Were you there watching when Eric M. drank the bleach after 2 months of RED SHIRT? Rule: You follow the religious practices at Anchor, OR ELSE!
Come on...kids are talking and telling the TRUTH about Anchor."
Darlin', he doesn't want to get it. But a lot of us do. Trust that and trust your gut....the people have a right to keep and bear arms.
-- Patrick Henry and George Mason Debates
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i just got back from the academy , was there visiting my grandson , i understand that the punishment for leaving the academy, or, running away, will cause the child to have to start all over again from week one. no matter how long he has already been there
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>>>Bro Dennis always told us that the reason they moved from Texas to Montana was because of the issue of State Licensing. When the State would license a home such as the Anchor, Bro Dennis said it would violate the principle of separating the church from the state.<<<
That's a convenient excuse for avoiding oversight, but any facility (religious or not) that houses kids 24/7/365 should have somone watching them. The kids' parents are not tithing. They are paying 'tuition', therefore the facility is technically a business... NOT a church.
It would be wrong to assume that any facility run by a religion is functioning within the law. In fact, many kids have been heinously abused at the hands of religious zealots.
'Spare the rod' would definitely be in conflict with state regulations, and they shouldn't be allowed to abuse because they can 'justify' it with scripture.
BTW, What is Red Shirt??
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What's most disingenuous about the Separation of church and state argument is - There is no such separation in the constitution; and it is often Christian schools that most stridently point this out.
What we are promised in the constitution is, that there shall be no establishment of a "church state" - meaning, the US of A will never be declared a Catholic nation, or a protestant nation, or a nation of Luciferians.
There is nothing what so ever prohibiting prayer in school, or the study of Biblical text in schools, or in the posting of scripture in government buildings.
If there had been anything like that, this country would have been a very different sort of place than it now is.
Early American children were primarily taught to read using a Bible.
Early American state and federal officials often prayed in public and quoted scripture.
They should still be able to do so - AND - the "state" has every right to protect its citizens from cruel abuses at the hands of "clergy".
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Red Shirt is a form of punisish, strong, prolonged punishment. Being on Red Shirt could last up to 2 months. The student is required to wear the "red shirt." The one on RED SHIRT is not allowed to be spoken to, looked at. RED SHIRT is supervised by the LEADERS who are in control of him (one or more students who have risen in RANK). RED SHIRT will be given prolonged, intense PT (physical training) to the point of extreme exhaustion. His "buttons will will pushed" until he reaches his breaking point, and when he DOES...and when he "strikes out at his tormentors," THEN he will be physically punished (attacked by these LEADERS). One the weekends, the RED SHIRT will be giving prolonged, meaninings physical tasks: like moving a pile of rocks; and then being made to move the pile of rocks BACK to the original spot. OR, he may be made to dig a huge hole with a spoon; to only be made to refill the hole with the spoon. All this activity will take place in the rain if raining. The RED SHIRT's diet will consist of Peanut Butter sandwiches and water. The whole point: TO BREAK HIM DOWN so he is ready to conform and be MOLDED!
What "rules" are broken to get on RED SHIRT?
Meaningless rules: not bowing his head during prayer. Getting too many "complaints" by the LEADER, and the LEADER'S rules are arbitrary, and subjective...not standard, written down universal rules set by the adult supervisor of the school. All these "punishments" are usually not supervised by any adult. The LEADERS have free reign to mentally, emotionally, and physically punish the RED SHIRT at will.
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They should still be able to do so..
And, what if that 'state official' happened not to be christian and read from the Torah or Koran or some other religious text of their preference?
Even as a child I resented being forced to listen to the principal pray over the PA system.
Want to have a moment of silence, fine. And everyone can do as they choose.
That's not good enough for christian zealots. Always looking to cram it down someone's throat and further the notion of their 'superiority'.
Why is it so damned important for you (christians)to pray in public. I, and many others, aren't interested in your 'outloud' prayers.
Might kids have learned to read from the bible because that's the only book most families possessed?
Yikes.... the arrogance still gives me the willies.
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On 2005-10-25 07:57:00, Anonymous wrote:
"i just got back from the academy , was there visiting my grandson , i understand that the punishment for leaving the academy, or, running away, will cause the child to have to start all over again from week one. no matter how long he has already been there"
Ah... "Starting Over" - how familiar. Funny how they can't leave when decide that place isn't for them.
Are there "phases" there as well?
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On 2005-10-25 09:58:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Red Shirt is a form of punisish, strong, prolonged punishment. Being on Red Shirt could last up to 2 months. The student is required to wear the "red shirt." The one on RED SHIRT is not allowed to be spoken to, looked at. RED SHIRT is supervised by the LEADERS who are in control of him (one or more students who have risen in RANK). RED SHIRT will be given prolonged, intense PT (physical training) to the point of extreme exhaustion. His "buttons will will pushed" until he reaches his breaking point, and when he DOES...and when he "strikes out at his tormentors," THEN he will be physically punished (attacked by these LEADERS). One the weekends, the RED SHIRT will be giving prolonged, meaninings physical tasks: like moving a pile of rocks; and then being made to move the pile of rocks BACK to the original spot. OR, he may be made to dig a huge hole with a spoon; to only be made to refill the hole with the spoon. All this activity will take place in the rain if raining. The RED SHIRT's diet will consist of Peanut Butter sandwiches and water. The whole point: TO BREAK HIM DOWN so he is ready to conform and be MOLDED!
What "rules" are broken to get on RED SHIRT?
Meaningless rules: not bowing his head during prayer. Getting too many "complaints" by the LEADER, and the LEADER'S rules are arbitrary, and subjective...not standard, written down universal rules set by the adult supervisor of the school. All these "punishments" are usually not supervised by any adult. The LEADERS have free reign to mentally, emotionally, and physically punish the RED SHIRT at will."
Singling out and a version of "marathoning". They even propogated the PB&J Diet. Hey, Pastor - you wanna tell us again that we don't know what we're talking about?
This is one sick place.
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They have a something like that at Hyde. It's
called work crew.The college idealists who fill the ranks of the environmental movement seem willing to do absolutely anything to save the biosphere, except take science courses and learn something about it.
--P.J. O'Rourke
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On 2005-10-25 11:13:00, tommyfromhyde1 wrote:
"They have a something like that at Hyde. It's
called work crew.The college idealists who fill the ranks of the environmental movement seem willing to do absolutely anything to save the biosphere, except take science courses and learn something about it.
--P.J. O'Rourke
"
Same shit, different era.
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Buzz,
Are you familiar with Wallbuilders? It is a great site all about what you are saying. Visit http://www.wallbuilders.org (http://www.wallbuilders.org)
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Yeh, same methods, different terms. At HLA it's called 'restrictions'.
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An anon puts me in my place :wink:
///And, what if that 'state official' happened not to be christian and read from the Torah or Koran or some other religious text of their preference?
Even as a child I resented being forced to listen to the principal pray over the PA system.
Want to have a moment of silence, fine. And everyone can do as they choose.
That's not good enough for christian zealots. Always looking to cram it down someone's throat and further the notion of their 'superiority'.
Why is it so damned important for you (christians)to pray in public. I, and many others, aren't interested in your 'outloud' prayers.
Might kids have learned to read from the bible because that's the only book most families possessed? ///
OK - as far as I am concerned, the state official may pray as he wishes.
My personal believe is, that many of them have traditionally (and still do) prayed to Lucifer; rather than the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Altho, they Craftily hide this fact from their constituents.
My point is, that since the founding of this nation, prayer has had a place in government and governing.
Its only in the last few decades that any protest has been raised; and this talk of separating church and state took such a twist, as to make it unacceptable to do so - or to allow students to pray, or study the Bible in public school.
I am not advocating principals praying over the loud speaker (I myself never heard one do this) but that students be allowed to pray at graduation, or before meals, or before a game - as they so choose.
I am saying, the sate has no business telling them they may not, simply b/c they are in school or taking part in school activities.
The constitution, far from forbidding public school prayer, or Bible study, guarantees these rights.
I'm sorry you felt assaulted by the prayer at your school - but did it do you any harm? Really?
I have had to sit threw prayers made to the father and mother god (pure Luciferian paganism) and while I felt sad and aggrieved (as this took place in the Presbyterian church I had grown up in) it didn't hurt me any.
But all this is really beyond the scope of my argument - which is - these private teen programs have no right to function totally free of any state regulation. Because - there IS no wall of separation in the constitution.
The state may not close them down b/c they call themselves Christian (or whatever) but they may certainly close them down for fraud, or abuse and neglect; and if claiming to be a school, for failing to educate.
The Bible, BTW, is an extremely important aspect of Western culture; European and American History - and one can not claim to be well educated with out knowing whats in it - weather or not they believe it.
-
Oh - I meant to explain some of my own educational history - I had one teacher in High school, that was a which. She openly explained all about it and taught it in all her classes - no matter what the class was. I found her to be a major flake and avoided her classes - but lots of the kids loved her - b/c there was no way to fail her class - no matter what it was. Besides, she could be very entertaining - levitating her desk an all, like she was prone to do.
'Do you know what Mz Care did this morning', was a common subject in the smoking areas.
I also had several teachers with other "non-traditional" views, that they openly taught in class; for example, that Homosexuality was superior and preferable to Heterosexuality. This got wormed into a class on ancient history - and by one of my very favorite teachers. Still, I didn't feel the least bit tempted to try it.
None of this hurt me any, tho I disagreed strongly with it.
I should maybe stress, I would strongly protest such extremes in grade school; But in High school, most students are able to understand teachers are not always founts of wisdom; and that much that comes out of their mouths is just plain wrong. (snakes are not invertebrates for example)
The point being, if a teacher wants to talk about their faith, they should not be fired, or litigated into submission to PC rhetoric.
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***My point is, that since the founding of this nation, prayer has had a place in government and governing.****
Don?t make it ?right?.
**(Its only in the last few decades that any protest has been raised; and this talk of separating church and state took such a twist, as to make it unacceptable to do so - or to allow students to pray, or study the Bible in public school. I am not advocating principals praying over the loud speaker (I myself never heard one do this) but that students be allowed to pray at graduation, or before meals, or before a game - as they so choose.***
Now that?s just silly. I attended three graduations last year and at all three someone (principal, valedictorian) prayed or made some reference to god.
Spoke with a young woman who was angry about the same things, AND that christianity was only studied/taught in the section on world religions. What? That?s not good enough? It?s school, not ?Sunday? school.
There?s not a damn thing stopping parents from teaching their kids about their preferred religion, or stopping kids from praying when and where they want. They just may not be allowed to do it out loud, at other?s expense, who may not pray or pray to another god. They may also not be allowed to pass out pens with scripture printed on them, or little bibles, or any other religious propaganda.
Why do they pray before games? Can?t they pray in silence or at home before the game? Is it written somewhere that their prayer must be outloud and witnessed by all present?
This same mother was most upset that her child could no longer celebrate Xmas or other religious holidays (AS IF THERE IS ONE) at school. No parties, no nativity scenes, etc.
Religion is a personal thing. It?s not about their prayers ?harming? me. It?s about the arrogance behind the act. And the total lack of acknowledgment of other religions, or lack thereof.
***The state may not close them down b/c they call themselves Christian (or whatever) but they may certainly close them down for fraud, or abuse and neglect; and if claiming to be a school, for failing to educate. ***
The state may not ?license and monitor? them if they call themselves christian, and that?s a big problem.
Might anyone who wants to talk about their religion, first ask their audience IF THEY ARE INTERESTED???
Personally, I'd be more interested in watching Ms Care levitate her desk than hearing a boring lecture on religion.
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Honestly, I think we went wrong with compulsory schooling. It's compulsory that we attend, force our kids to (unless we take advantage of recently created legal alternatives) and, most of all, that we ALL pay for it.
Now, there is just NO way that any such public institution can teach anything w/o crossing some of it's payors and consumers' sensibilities.
I say, do away w/ public schooling, quit taking our money for it and let us all educate ourselves and our kids as we see fit.
First management had plans and then strategic plans. Now we have vision, and we're only one small step from hallucination.
-- Ansley Throckmorton upon assuming the presidency of Bangor Theological Seminary in Bangor, Main per Information World 8-4-`97
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Don't you believe the problem with doing away with complusory education might be that there would be lots and lots of kids in America who would wind up with NO EDUCATION WHATSOEVER? I could see that happening. Not all parents would be responsible enough to see to their children's education, you know?
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Well, you would think so. And, certainly, I thought so for all the years I sent my precious kids to the public indoctrination centers.
But history just doesn't bear it out. If compulsory public schooling is necessary to education, then the Renaissance could never have happened. But it did happen and, in fact, it started out as a rebellious, subversive movement against the church/governments of the time.
If people, left to their own care can't or would not be inclined to learn and improve themselves, how in the hell did us hillbillies over here turn back the mighty awsome Brittish empire? How come things didn't just fall apart in the aftermath? Instead, we excelled at everything that mattered; peace, prosperity, invention... hell, in the day when Mark Twain was deemed the most well loved man in the world, compulsory public education was not pervasive in this country. In those days, primary school boys saved their pennies to purchase tattered copies of Robert Louis Stevenson books to hide inside their readers. Try getting a college student today to even be able to comprehend that level of litterature.
There's a very good history of American schooling written by a well respected, two time NY teacher of the year. It's called The Underground History of American Education by John Taylor Gatto. Here's the main link:
http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/underground/toc1.htm (http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/underground/toc1.htm)
Here's the beginning of the chapters on pre-forced schooling and litteracy and competency.
http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/10a.htm (http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/10a.htm)
You're bound to get angry if you read this book. Probably first at the author for the harsh things he has to say about your profession and your devotion to it, then maybe at the scam that's been perpatrated on us all.
At the bottom of it, kids are born with as strong an appetite for knowledge and competency as for food, love and air. You don't have to force kids to learn useful things. In fact, one of the biggest crimes against children, in my view, is the way schooling teaches them to hate books! God, I'm so glad I never fell for that one! I already loved books and knew that all the adults in my life found them pleasurable, or at least useful.
Never in the history of any nation has an education system been so on the point of disintegration and decay as the education system in this country...We know that education in this country is as bad as it can be. We know that it is old-fashioned, irrelevant, and not meaningful.
--U.S. Senator Abraham A. Ribicoff, 1970
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed Chicklett `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
10/80 - 10/82
Apostate 10/82 -
Anonymity Anonymous
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I agree Ginger.
Public school is designed to make children resist learning.
They are engineered to make the kids think reading is work.
The intent is to dumb down and degrade, so that the masses will accept mindless work and be content to spend their lives doing as they are told.
Its all part of the conspiracy . . .
Anon writes:
/// Personally, I'd be more interested in watching Ms Care levitate her desk than hearing a boring lecture on religion. ///
Ha - well me too!
But my point is, Mz Care can tell me I give off negative vibes and have a sick aura - And I can tell her there is no salvation apart from God's Son.
The US constitution protects us both - not just her.
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***The US constitution protects us both - not just her.
Good point... but it wasn't the argument.
As 'paranoid' as some may perceive it... all the more reason to home school your younguns.
Just as in programs, parents have NO idea what misinformation/ideas/beliefs the 'caring' adults they spend their day with are planting in their impressionable minds.
If one wants their kid studying the bible during school time, wouldn't it make sense to enroll them in a christian academy. I for one, sure thought that was what distinguished to two. Vouchers would be appropriate in this situation, but to expect your child to be instucted on the bible/religion in 'public' school makes no sense whatsoever.
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//but to expect your child to be instucted on the bible/religion in 'public' school makes no sense whatsoever. //
I tend to agree; but what I was thinking of was elective classes on the Bible as literature and History; or, in student lead Bible studies held out side of class instruction (or a study of Tora or the Koran or whatever) like the chess club or Key clubs and so on. There is no reason this could not be permitted in public schools, as long as it is elective.
//Just as in programs, parents have NO idea what misinformation/ideas/beliefs the 'caring' adults they spend their day with are planting in their impressionable minds.//
Precisely why I say the limits of instruction in grade school ought to be more strict. But these limits should apply to the teachers, not the students. Suspending a child from grade school for passing out cards with a Christian message is outrageous.
///Good point... but it wasn't the argument. ///
Well, I didn't intend for it to be, but it seems it was. All I wanted to point out was the fallacy of the 'Roloff' argument. There is no wall of separation; and he can not use his faith as a shield against the states interest in protecting its citizens.
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On 2005-10-25 20:45:00, BuzzKill wrote:
"//but to expect your child to be instucted on the bible/religion in 'public' school makes no sense whatsoever. //
I tend to agree; but what I was thinking of was elective classes on the Bible as literature and History; or, in student lead Bible studies held out side of class instruction (or a study of Tora or the Koran or whatever) like the chess club or Key clubs and so on. There is no reason this could not be permitted in public schools, as long as it is elective.
//Just as in programs, parents have NO idea what misinformation/ideas/beliefs the 'caring' adults they spend their day with are planting in their impressionable minds.//
Precisely why I say the limits of instruction in grade school ought to be more strict. But these limits should apply to the teachers, not the students. Suspending a child from grade school for passing out cards with a Christian message is outrageous.
///Good point... but it wasn't the argument. ///
Well, I didn't intend for it to be, but it seems it was. All I wanted to point out was the fallacy of the 'Roloff' argument. There is no wall of separation; and he can not use his faith as a shield against the states interest in protecting its citizens.
"
I received my ACLU report. In it they mention they are defending a second-grader's right to religious expression. The girl wanted to sing "Awesome God" at an after-school talent show. The school, fearing it would appear to be favoring a relgion refused to allow her to sing it. The ACLU is claiming that no reasonable observer would think the school endorsed the religious message and so this was not grounds to deny her choice of song.
People usually think of the ACLU joining the opposite side, because they get more press for that. The fact is that they support just as many cases siding with freedom of religious expression.
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Yeah, ACLU is a pretty cool organization. At least, I often agree w/ their positions on different issues.
However, I think they're just scampering around the edge of this one.
Look, there is absolutely no need in our society for another expensive, ineffective layer of elective school courses in religion. If you want your kid to learn all about religions, get them out of school so they'll have enough time to study then send or take them to various churches, libraries and Bible/comparitive religion studies. Any kid w/ reasonable intelligence and a sincere interest can surely educate themselves well enough by the time they're about 16 to handle seminary or college level course work.
How about other hot topics. How about economic facts and attitudes? I was shocked when I read the introductory chapter of my daughter's 9th grade economics book. According to McGraw, our value to society and the economy begins and ends with our ability to tolerate our meaningless, disconnected job tasks in order to consume the products of everyone else's meaningless, isolated, boring jobs.
Fucking amazing! My dad and other mentors taught me that our value to society and the economy is to be producers of useful, innovative, quality products and services; to take care of ourselvs and our own, to save and invest and, hopefully, leave something of value to the next generation.
Again, glad I never paid attention in school!
Here's another nifty trick. Want your kid to be competent at handling money? Give them some money. It can be an allowance, earnings from a paper route or some other venture. As soon as they express an interest (usually by around age 3 or 4 if you take them with you pretty often when you go shopping) let them get a little practice at price shopping, counting change, figuring sales tax and so forth.
The way they do it in school? It's so silly it's hard to even believe reasonably intelligent adults can carry it off with a straight face. They manufacture cardboard or paper faccimilies of coins then drill the kids, on paper, w/ meaningless, redundant and boring questions that they haven't even asked.
Same with telling time. Rather than just explain how to read a clock and encourage the kids to try it whenever they have a need to know what time it is, they make them sit and entertain meaningless invented scenareos; again, not when they ask for it but whenever the curriculum authors and tweakers have decided they should think about it.
Life's just so much simpler than that.
Our nada who art in nada, nada be thy name. Thy kingdom nada, thy will be nada as it is in nada. Give us this nada our daily nada and nada us our nada as we nada our nadas and nada us into nada but deliver us from nada; pues nada. Hail nothing full of nothing, nothing is with thee.
--Ernest Hemingway, American author
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"Yeah, ACLU is a pretty cool organization."
You gotta be kidding?
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On 2005-10-27 23:50:00, Pastor wrote:
""Yeah, ACLU is a pretty cool organization."
You gotta be kidding? "
'sup there scardeycat.
Back in this thread trying to jack it off of anchor academy and YOU not being able to answer (well, youre damn sure good at making excuses) and make it about the ACLU?
I DONT THINK SO, PASTOR!
Dont turn this into anything about the ACLU - its not. Its about ANCHOR ACADEMY.
So, kindly start facing up to their link to the roloffs and the abuse, and do kindly stop trying to throw up chaff about the ACLU instead of coming clean.
What are you running from? (http://http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic=12335&forum=9&start=10&Sort=)
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On 2005-10-27 23:50:00, Pastor wrote:
""Yeah, ACLU is a pretty cool organization."
You gotta be kidding? "
I thought you left? :wink:
(http://http://mediamatters.org/static/video/bill-oreilly.jpg)
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okay... why when you load THIS page specifically, do I hear CRICKETS?? Turn on your speakers.. am I the only one? Should I start taking meds ? it's a chirping noise. am I missing something here? :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Maybe it's a "message" to PASTOR telling him to get real and do something about BROTHER DENNIS and this abusive school?
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Oh, there are crickets... its because of the akward silence pastor gives us whenever we ask him to answer a friggin' question! :silly:
One does not have to appeal to God to set the initial conditions for the creation of the universe, but if one does He would have to act through the laws of physics.
--Stephen Hawking, English scientist
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On 2005-10-27 23:50:00, Pastor wrote:
""Yeah, ACLU is a pretty cool organization."
You gotta be kidding? "
What do you have against defending Civil Liberties? All the ACLU does is support people when their legal civil rights are being violated.
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Is Pastor impling the ACLU is not a great organization?
If so, he has proven on more than one account in this thread he will not protect a human's rights. Wow, That just blows me away.....
What is funny here, is all we asked Pastor to do is PROTECT other Human beings but he refuses to see past the end of his own nose.
Don't drink the k00l-aide!
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On 2005-10-30 14:16:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Is Pastor impling the ACLU is not a great organization?
If so, he has proven on more than one account in this thread he will not protect a human's rights. Wow, That just blows me away.....
What is funny here, is all we asked Pastor to do is PROTECT other Human beings but he refuses to see past the end of his own nose.
Don't drink the k00l-aide!"
Too late... seems Pastor has already gone over the mortal (moral?) limit - he's had way too much to answer a simple question.
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On 2005-10-25 20:45:00, BuzzKill wrote:
I tend to agree; but what I was thinking of was elective classes on the Bible as literature and History; or, in student lead Bible studies held out side of class instruction (or a study of Tora or the Koran or whatever) like the chess club or Key clubs and so on. There is no reason this could not be permitted in public schools, as long as it is elective.
Yes, there is a reason. Who's paying for these elective courses and the venues for the student led events? Me, that's who. Am I willing to pay to promote these ideas? Personally, no. And I'm not alone. I'd actually love to see drug policy reform activities that involve the student body.
In my view, an ideal curriculum of instruction would teach kids that pot is about the safest recreational drug going, though there are some minor risks, and that tobacco or alcohol will ruin your life if you don't mind and manage the dangers. I'd want them taught to understand the dangers of blind obedience and superior ways of thinking and getting along in the world.
I could go on and on. But my point is that many of my neighbors would disagree with me about what is important to teach, never mind what viewpoints are worth supporting or condemning. Therefore, I have no more right to demand that they pay for what I view as proper instruction of children than they have to insist that I pay to teach their children what I view as harmful propaganda.
In other words, education never has been the legitimate province of the public sector. We were yokels, though, 90 years ago when most of us first started flocking to the industrialized cities. We gave it a shot, with a hope and a prayer that it really would deliver at least half what was promised. And maybe it did; somewhere near half. But the best fruits of colectivism have been the lessons, which we can take right back with us up into the hills and out onto the prairies.
We have a very powerful imagined dependency on the experts and professionals to sort this stuff out. But we haven't got half the education, either in terms of rote knowledge or of the ability to reason, that our grandparents grew for themselves out of whatever culture they inherited. I think we should go back to the old, organic ways and try our luck. Call it faith, if you want, I won't even complain. :wink:
At the end of the day, we're arguing about how to bring about a curriculum for our children (Our own children!) that will be inoffensive to everybody. There's an old tribal (though, evidently quite nuanced and sophisticated) culture in China where the presentation of a blank sheet of paper rises to the level of a killing offense.
They've had thousands more years of relative peace and prosperity to work these things out. Maybe they're onto something? Speculations on the Origin of Human Intelligence: "In defense of the Pygmies, perhaps I should note that a friend of mine who has spent time with them says that for such activities as the patient stalking and hunting of mammals and fish they prepare themselves through marijuana intoxication, which helps to make the long waits, boring to anyone further evolved than a Komodo dragon, at least moderately tolerable. Ganja is, he says, their only cultivated crop. It would be wryly interesting if in human history the cultivation of marijuana led generally to the invention of agriculture, and thereby to civilization.
Carl Sagan - The Dragons of Eden - 1977
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:wstupid:
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Hey Ginger -
I didn't mean that I think it is "Important" to have Bible classes - but rather, that as important as the Bible and Christianity are to Western civilization , culture and history, omitting all reference, as has become common practice, does a disservice to the student body.
As for elective classes that you'd rather not pay for - as you point out - this is always a problem. There are ALL kinds of things taught in public school, I'd rather not pay for.
All I am saying is, the students should not be denied these classes, if they want them, based on some imaginary constitutional prohibition.
Nor can this imaginary constitutional prohibition be used to shield a "religious" institution from state investigation and sanction, if they are hurting the state's citizens.
PS again -
I agree with you on the blight of public education.
Still, the fact remains, it is here to stay, no matter how much evidence one produces that it does more harm then good.
And so, like with the "regulation" debate - I simply feel we are beholden to make the best of any ability we have to make a change for the better.
No - it won't solve the problem - but it might help make things better.[ This Message was edited by: BuzzKill on 2005-11-01 14:54 ]
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On 2005-11-01 14:47:00, BuzzKill wrote:
"Hey Ginger -
I didn't mean that I think it is "Important" to have Bible classes - but rather, that as important as the Bible and Christianity are to Western civilization , culture and history, omitting all reference, as has become common practice, does a disservice to the student body.
As for elective classes that you'd rather not pay for - as you point out - this is always a problem. There are ALL kinds of things taught in public school, I'd rather not pay for.
All I am saying is, the students should not be denied these classes, if they want them, based on some imaginary constitutional prohibition.
Nor can this imaginary constitutional prohibition be used to shield a "religious" institution from state investigation and sanction, if they are hurting the state's citizens.
PS again -
I agree with you on the blight of public education.
Still, the fact remains, it is here to stay, no matter how much evidence one produces that it does more harm then good.
And so, like with the "regulation" debate - I simply feel we are beholden to make the best of any ability we have to make a change for the better.
No - it won't solve the problem - but it might help make things better.[ This Message was edited by: BuzzKill on 2005-11-01 14:54 ]"
You might wanna check just how important paganism is to western civilization. A lot of our holidays are just rebadged pagan rites... like halloween, christmas trees, and plenty of other stuff Im too lazy to look up right now :grin:
OTOH, the history of Christiantiy as far as the Catholic church, and its influence, corruption, and political powers is already part of history classes... so whats there to add to? Do you mean studying the dogma more than the direct historical impact?In war, the stronger overcomes the weaker. In business, the stronger imparts strength to the weaker.
--Frederic Bastiat
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On 2005-11-01 14:47:00, BuzzKill wrote:
I agree with you on the blight of public education.
Still, the fact remains, it is here to stay, no matter how much evidence one produces that it does more harm then good.
Never say never. Really, compulsory public schooling has only been broadly accepted in this country for well under a hundred years. That's a mere flash in the pan.I believe in God, only I spell it Nature.
--Frank Lloyd Wright, American architect
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I was in Anchor for 1 year in 2001-2002. It's a good place. A lot better than juvenile hall for 4 years. They teach troubled boys to behave and function in society.
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On 2005-11-27 21:35:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I was in Anchor for 1 year in 2001-2002. It's a good place. A lot better than juvenile hall for 4 years. They teach troubled boys to behave and function in society."
I really gotta wonder - why is it that so many supporters have suddenly appeared from a little known place located in the middle of nowhere?
I was "troubled" yesterday because my purse was missing. I'm "struggling" with a work "issue". Why must you be so vague?
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The anchor academy is a faith based ministry of the hi-line baptist church. Most of the posts here about "WAR STORIES" about how the academy is so horrible is a bunch of bologna. The anchor is a very nice place for troubled boys. They focus on outward issues while God takes care of the heart. They teach the bible as basis of authority. They are very nice to the boys, but they do have rules that they must follow. Ok if you went to jail and got what ever you wanted and you could run a muck well then that dosn't accomplish nothing, but if you have rules you have to follow then you will straighten up. They also teach the boys vocational skills to help them during life. I was blessed to work with the boys in my home state for several months and they were awsome so awsome i am going there to work for a few week to see if i wanna move to the anchor and be a full time staff member. It takes special people to work with young men in situations like that. I want to thank all the staff at the Anchor Academy for your time and efforts that you sacrafice each day. Thanks Bro Dennis the world need more people like you.
Bro Mike
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On 2005-12-15 18:39:00, Anonymous wrote:
"The anchor academy is a faith based ministry of the hi-line baptist church. Most of the posts here about "WAR STORIES" about how the academy is so horrible is a bunch of bologna. The anchor is a very nice place for troubled boys. They focus on outward issues while God takes care of the heart. They teach the bible as basis of authority. They are very nice to the boys, but they do have rules that they must follow. Ok if you went to jail and got what ever you wanted and you could run a muck well then that dosn't accomplish nothing, but if you have rules you have to follow then you will straighten up. They also teach the boys vocational skills to help them during life. I was blessed to work with the boys in my home state for several months and they were awsome so awsome i am going there to work for a few week to see if i wanna move to the anchor and be a full time staff member. It takes special people to work with young men in situations like that. I want to thank all the staff at the Anchor Academy for your time and efforts that you sacrafice each day. Thanks Bro Dennis the world need more people like you.
Bro Mike "
:rofl: :rofl:
right on time... :wink:
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On 2005-12-15 18:39:00, Anonymous wrote:
"The anchor academy is a faith based ministry of the hi-line baptist church. Most of the posts here about "WAR STORIES" about how the academy is so horrible is a bunch of bologna. The anchor is a very nice place for troubled boys. They focus on outward issues while God takes care of the heart. They teach the bible as basis of authority. They are very nice to the boys, but they do have rules that they must follow. Ok if you went to jail and got what ever you wanted and you could run a muck well then that dosn't accomplish nothing, but if you have rules you have to follow then you will straighten up. They also teach the boys vocational skills to help them during life. I was blessed to work with the boys in my home state for several months and they were awsome so awsome i am going there to work for a few week to see if i wanna move to the anchor and be a full time staff member. It takes special people to work with young men in situations like that. I want to thank all the staff at the Anchor Academy for your time and efforts that you sacrafice each day. Thanks Bro Dennis the world need more people like you.
Bro Mike "
Amen! Bro Dennis is a good guy, caring and compassionate. He lives his faith with integrity. No one who knows him questions that.
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Think "BROTHER" Roloff was praised just like this, wasn't he? and this Anchor is an offshoot of the Roloff ministries. Give me a f....ing break!
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After Amen.... I just stopped reading. That word alone says.. Heck yea, I'll go along with your lie.
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I have been a student and worked at Anchor academy - Dennis is an upright man, does right for everything and to everyone. And the staff are not abusive.
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How is it that so many supporters are suddenly coming out of the woodwork from a little known place out in the middle of nowhere? Really, how do all these successful grads find Fornits in the first place?
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You should taken any sequencial anonymous posting with a grain of salt. To program supporters, this forum is a threat, something they take very seriously - and will do anything to protect.
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On 2005-12-15 18:39:00, Anonymous wrote:
"The anchor academy is a faith based ministry of the hi-line baptist church. Most of the posts here about "WAR STORIES" about how the academy is so horrible is a bunch of bologna. The anchor is a very nice place for troubled boys. They focus on outward issues while God takes care of the heart. They teach the bible as basis of authority. They are very nice to the boys, but they do have rules that they must follow. Ok if you went to jail and got what ever you wanted and you could run a muck well then that dosn't accomplish nothing, but if you have rules you have to follow then you will straighten up. They also teach the boys vocational skills to help them during life. I was blessed to work with the boys in my home state for several months and they were awsome so awsome i am going there to work for a few week to see if i wanna move to the anchor and be a full time staff member. It takes special people to work with young men in situations like that. I want to thank all the staff at the Anchor Academy for your time and efforts that you sacrafice each day. Thanks Bro Dennis the world need more people like you.
Bro Mike "
Two questions? If these stories are bologna, why to people post them?
What if the boy is an aethist?
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Anchor Academy saved my life
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On 2005-12-18 13:57:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Anchor Academy saved my life"
Me too, when were you there man?
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Please pass the KOOL AID!
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On 2005-12-18 13:57:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Anchor Academy saved my life"
Kendall Jackson saved my life! If not for staying home and having a glass o' grapes, I may have been hit by a bus! I could have been hit in the head by a chunk of flying debris, and suffered brain damage! I was actually thinking about robbing a bank, but that glass of wine saved me from prison!
I owe my life, health and freedom to Kendall Jackson!
:grin:
Age is mind over matter. If you don't mind...it doesn't matter!
-- Chuck Gauran
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On 2005-12-18 15:39:00, Three Springs Waygookin wrote:
"I don't own my life to the Jackson 5.
That damn Kool Aid at least better have some everclear in it.
"Kendall Jackson" is a brand of wine... and it tastes better than KoolAid and Everclear :grin:
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You really need to consider the fact that the government and county facilities that are available for delinquent boys are all risks for our boys. When a boy starts violating laws and rebelling against the rules of home and society you can go to court and they will either put him in a detention center, a group facility or a foster home. All of which, I must inform you, are placing your child at risk for sexual abuse. I am a social worker in the field of child welfare and a faith based facility that had an incident is no news in this helping field. Not to take sexual abuse lightly, or any abuse lightly, but it happens. All the programs have stuff happen, they deal with it, and plug forward. You really need to realize that. I had a three year old sexually abused in a foster home. This is very painful to know that this kinda thing could happen. Does that mean we need to shut down foster care all together? NO. We still need foster care and faith based facilities like Anchor, etc. Be realistic and stop trying to shut down options. These options may not be the ideal, but the human situations and social problems we deal with are not ideal either, and there is no perfect solution coming from a social worker in the field since 1995. These placed do turn kids around and give hope. Stop trying to take that hope away.
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On 2006-01-16 19:44:00, tk wrote:
These placed do turn kids around and give hope.
Evidence, please?
Stop trying to take that hope away.
It's false hope, darlin. Sorry to be the bearer of that sad news. But I'd be sorrier still to just keep it to myself.
The TC method (or confrontational therapy or group meliu or LGA... by any name) is not only ineffective, it can be quite harmful. It also fosters an environment ripe for abuse by secluding potential victims, keeping them in a weakened psychological and emotional state and by virtue of the prime directive of such a program, "the program is always right, the kid is always wrong".
They make big bucks by convincing parents, juvenile judges and others in positions of authority that they're safe and effective. But you just go and find the peer reviewed studies to prove it out. Ga' head. I dare ya. They don't exist.
One does not have to appeal to God to set the initial conditions for the creation of the universe, but if one does He would have to act through the laws of physics.
--Stephen Hawking, English scientist
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I have proof of the environment at Anchor.
My wife and I sent our son to Anchor a year and a half ago. When he was sent, he had been through drug rehab and we were pressured out of removing him from 2 public schools. He was on his way out of high school as he threatened teachers and eventually ran away only because he was grounded for cheating on a test.
These types of activities had been going on for years. After we took him to anchor, we found drawings of gross sexual acts and drawings of him murdering his mother. Yes, he drew these.
What has happened since then? Our son has respect for people. More importantly, he has a sense of pride and self-esteem. He takes responsibility for his actions and how they impact other people.
Our son will never be perfect and he will battle with his challenges just as we all battle with our own challenges. I can say that he is no longer on the road he was on. I know we will not get a call from the police informing us that he has been murdered or arrested for involvement in drugs or violence.
On our son's last visit home we told him that he no longer needed to stay at anchor if he didn't want to. We told him he was welcome home whenever he wanted to return. He made the choice to return to anchor.
We talk to Dennis on a weekly basis and I believe that Dennis cares for what he does. He cares for the welfare of all the boys in the program. He thoughtfully processes information to do what is best for the boy's self-esteem.
I thank Dennis for operating the program in Montana. He has his work cut out for him. His ministry, through God, saved our son.
-Proud Father
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It's obvious that you have a problem with Christians in general.
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You're grasping at straws. Some of my favorite people on the planet happen to be Christians. But they don't condone or participate in brainwashing children (or adults, for that matter)
By the year 2000, we will, I hope, raise our children to believe in human potential, not God.
--Gloria Steinam, women's rights activist
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On 2006-01-16 20:03:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I have proof of the environment at Anchor.
My wife and I sent our son to Anchor a year and a half ago. When he was sent, he had been through drug rehab and we were pressured out of removing him from 2 public schools. He was on his way out of high school as he threatened teachers and eventually ran away only because he was grounded for cheating on a test.
These types of activities had been going on for years. After we took him to anchor, we found drawings of gross sexual acts and drawings of him murdering his mother. Yes, he drew these.
Gross sexual acts? You mean something other than the missionary position while wearing bunny slippers?
And if I could draw - it would be quite cathartic to put my mother out of her misery on the canvas since she's fucked up my entire day and now lies drunk on my couch... and I'm 36.
What has happened since then? Our son has respect for people. More importantly, he has a sense of pride and self-esteem. He takes responsibility for his actions and how they impact other people.
Wow... four program terms in three sentences! How does one measure "pride" and "self esteem"?
Our son will never be perfect and he will battle with his challenges just as we all battle with our own challenges. I can say that he is no longer on the road he was on. I know we will not get a call from the police informing us that he has been murdered or arrested for involvement in drugs or violence.
uh uh uh! Supposed to say STRUGGLE, not "Battle"! "Battle"??? Didn't they teach you anything in the parent meetings?
But anyway... so let me get this straight: Because your son went to Anchor, he will never be murdered. Maybe we should send infants to Anchor to guarantee their safety?
He will never be arrested for involvement in drugs or violence? Really?
Funny... many of us were incarcerated on a screwed up parent's word alone. No questions asked. Just ask the lady sleeping on my couch.
On our son's last visit home we told him that he no longer needed to stay at anchor if he didn't want to. We told him he was welcome home whenever he wanted to return. He made the choice to return to anchor.
Made the choice? I wonder what the consequences would be if he didn't
We talk to Dennis on a weekly basis and I believe that Dennis cares for what he does. He cares for the welfare of all the boys in the program. He thoughtfully processes information to do what is best for the boy's self-esteem.
I thank Dennis for operating the program in Montana. He has his work cut out for him. His ministry, through God, saved our son.
Funny... do you remember your son's name? I can see you protecting his anonymity, but this seems to be all about "Dennis" and your "relief" rather than the guy that's going thru it.
And furthermore,
We never said that the program wouldn't succesfully make your kid into a Stepford kid, what we said is that it's abusive and even if you don't CARE if it's abusive, the trauma from the program will cause problems 3-5 years later. The real test would be - once of he's out of the program's control and the program by proxy (the parents), if he reverts back to his old behavor - acts out or not.
- Niles by proxy
Immortality: A toy which people cry for, And on their knees apply for, Dispute, contend and lie for, And if allowed Would be right proud Eternally to die for.
--Ambrose Bierce
[ This Message was edited by: Helena Handbasket on 2006-01-16 21:44 ]
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These types of activities had been going on for years. After we took him to anchor, we found drawings of gross sexual acts and drawings of him murdering his mother. Yes, he drew these.
:rofl: :rofl:
Oh shit man... this is why I come to fornits. LMFAO.
Can you scan those pictures for us? :em:
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Do you think that attacking me and making fun of how I construct my phrases will really further your efforts? No one will take you seriously and I'm sure no one does. If you care about the boys in Montana then you should get off your lazy butt and do something about it. If they are being abused, then collect evidence and let the authorities know. That is how you do things in this country.
I do remember my son's name. We talk to him several times a week. No, I'm not going to say his name on here. That was done on purpose. Why would I put his name on a publicly read site when I aired his past mistakes?
I wrote one paragraph about Dennis and his efforts, how does that make it all about Dennis? Is it because we talk to him once a week? We talk to him about our son and his progress. You can play with my words all you want and attack me all you want but if those boys in Montana are being abused then maybe you should take a serious logical stand and do something about it.
What is your alternative? You attach Anchor but you have not given the alternative. It is proven that prisons and government ran programs are worse. What is your alternative?
My son, while he was in our home on a visit, was told he could stay. What would the consequence be? LOL, do you think we would have beaten him if he stayed? Do you think Anchor has the time and the resources to track him down and drag him back? I would like to hear your thoughts, since you are so wise, as to what the consequences would have been. If you could try to make your arguments logical and discuss the subject instead of attacking my words and me, that would be great.
If a convicted drug dealer went to prison and straighten himself up does he become a Stepford son/husband whatever? I presume that he would only be labeled a Stepford if he claimed Christianity as his religion. It is obvious everyone who attacks anchor hates God or the idea of God. Just think, if you would have been logical and acted as if you had any sense or humbleness, someone might listen to you. Someone might take you seriously.
I am not sure why you minimized and made fun of my son's efforts while he was at anchor. I am not sure why you find it funny and call him a Stepford son because he realized that his past actions were no good for him. That is true even if you remove the element of Christianity. Doing drugs, raping girls, threatening to murder people is no good for anyone and if they stop doing these things, regardless of whether it is through Christianity, Buddhism, or whatever, it is a victory. What I can say is that I am 100 percent grateful that he was never submitted to your care because I would hate to see the results.
I challenge you to give up whatever it is you have in your life and open a school to help troubled teens. Can you do it better? Do you even care enough to do it? I doubt it.
On 2006-01-16 21:38:00, Helena Handbasket wrote:
"
On 2006-01-16 20:03:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I have proof of the environment at Anchor.
My wife and I sent our son to Anchor a year and a half ago. When he was sent, he had been through drug rehab and we were pressured out of removing him from 2 public schools. He was on his way out of high school as he threatened teachers and eventually ran away only because he was grounded for cheating on a test.
These types of activities had been going on for years. After we took him to anchor, we found drawings of gross sexual acts and drawings of him murdering his mother. Yes, he drew these.
Gross sexual acts? You mean something other than the missionary position while wearing bunny slippers?
And if I could draw - it would be quite cathartic to put my mother out of her misery on the canvas since she's fucked up my entire day and now lies drunk on my couch... and I'm 36.
What has happened since then? Our son has respect for people. More importantly, he has a sense of pride and self-esteem. He takes responsibility for his actions and how they impact other people.
Wow... four program terms in three sentences! How does one measure "pride" and "self esteem"?
Our son will never be perfect and he will battle with his challenges just as we all battle with our own challenges. I can say that he is no longer on the road he was on. I know we will not get a call from the police informing us that he has been murdered or arrested for involvement in drugs or violence.
uh uh uh! Supposed to say STRUGGLE, not "Battle"! "Battle"??? Didn't they teach you anything in the parent meetings?
But anyway... so let me get this straight: Because your son went to Anchor, he will never be murdered. Maybe we should send infants to Anchor to guarantee their safety?
He will never be arrested for involvement in drugs or violence? Really?
Funny... many of us were incarcerated on a screwed up parent's word alone. No questions asked. Just ask the lady sleeping on my couch.
On our son's last visit home we told him that he no longer needed to stay at anchor if he didn't want to. We told him he was welcome home whenever he wanted to return. He made the choice to return to anchor.
Made the choice? I wonder what the consequences would be if he didn't
We talk to Dennis on a weekly basis and I believe that Dennis cares for what he does. He cares for the welfare of all the boys in the program. He thoughtfully processes information to do what is best for the boy's self-esteem.
I thank Dennis for operating the program in Montana. He has his work cut out for him. His ministry, through God, saved our son.
Funny... do you remember your son's name? I can see you protecting his anonymity, but this seems to be all about "Dennis" and your "relief" rather than the guy that's going thru it.
And furthermore,
We never said that the program wouldn't succesfully make your kid into a Stepford kid, what we said is that it's abusive and even if you don't CARE if it's abusive, the trauma from the program will cause problems 3-5 years later. The real test would be - once of he's out of the program's control and the program by proxy (the parents), if he reverts back to his old behavor - acts out or not.
- Niles by proxy
Immortality: A toy which people cry for, And on their knees apply for, Dispute, contend and lie for, And if allowed Would be right proud Eternally to die for.
--Ambrose Bierce
[ This Message was edited by: Helena Handbasket on 2006-01-16 21:44 ]"
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Brainwashing? Please help me to understand how teaching someone to think different about their actions is negative brainwashing?
What are doing when you tell children over and over how to be a good person? Or not to do certain things, that is brainwashing.
Please give some concrete examples. Brainwashing is pretty general.
Also, what alternative do you propose?
On 2006-01-16 21:05:00, Antigen wrote:
"You're grasping at straws. Some of my favorite people on the planet happen to be Christians. But they don't condone or participate in brainwashing children (or adults, for that matter)By the year 2000, we will, I hope, raise our children to believe in human potential, not God.
--Gloria Steinam, women's rights activist
"
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LOL, when someone does give evidence, you attack them and their words. So whats the point?
On 2006-01-16 19:53:00, Antigen wrote:
"
On 2006-01-16 19:44:00, tk wrote:
These placed do turn kids around and give hope.
Evidence, please?
Stop trying to take that hope away.
It's false hope, darlin. Sorry to be the bearer of that sad news. But I'd be sorrier still to just keep it to myself.
The TC method (or confrontational therapy or group meliu or LGA... by any name) is not only ineffective, it can be quite harmful. It also fosters an environment ripe for abuse by secluding potential victims, keeping them in a weakened psychological and emotional state and by virtue of the prime directive of such a program, "the program is always right, the kid is always wrong".
They make big bucks by convincing parents, juvenile judges and others in positions of authority that they're safe and effective. But you just go and find the peer reviewed studies to prove it out. Ga' head. I dare ya. They don't exist.
One does not have to appeal to God to set the initial conditions for the creation of the universe, but if one does He would have to act through the laws of physics.
--Stephen Hawking, English scientist
"
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Why doy you find this funny? You all claim that Anchor is abusive but find it funny that a kid fantasizes about murdering his mom and raping girls? Do you think this is ok?
On 2006-01-17 00:31:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
These types of activities had been going on for years. After we took him to anchor, we found drawings of gross sexual acts and drawings of him murdering his mother. Yes, he drew these.
:rofl: :rofl:
Oh shit man... this is why I come to fornits. LMFAO.
Can you scan those pictures for us? :em: "
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Doing drugs, raping girls, threatening to murder people is no good for anyone and if they stop doing these things,
Girls? As in plural?
So, how many girls exactly did your son rape, and why is he not in jail?
OR
Are you full of shit?
Which is it?
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I challenge you to give up whatever it is you have in your life and open a school to help troubled teens. Can you do it better? Do you even care enough to do it? I doubt it.
These programs don't need to exist and the only reason these programs DO exist is to take advantage of the plentiful amount of ignorami such as yourself. You are a cash machine to these people. Real help is out there and intelligent people tend to find it. What does that make you? Nobody here is opening a program because they don't have the proper qualifications/experience/education, and feel it needs to be left to professionals who went to school for this sort of thing... you know, training and education? Only program parents would say something like that. You challenge them, huh? Funny stuff, it really is, and it wouldn't be nearly as funny if you knew why it was funny, which makes it all the better. Normal people care enough about teens to NOT open up a teen boot camp. You were serious though, weren't you? That says it all right there. :lol:
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Once again, your logical arguments of attacking me do nothing. Why not engage in logical arguments? You really do sound silly.
You made my point by explaining that NO ONE here is an educated professional. I've worked with the so-called EDUCATED PROFESSIONALS who yell at a kid because he believes in God. You know them, the professionals that put a kid on drugs and collect their 20 dollar co-payment? That's not abusive?
Your argument is not logical on any level because you are ignoring the negative actions of the "Educated professional". My wife is in child protective services and her Educated Professional supervisor lied about certain actions taken on behalf of a 2 year old infant. Because of those lies, the infant died. (Details left out for brevity).
Do you see how I broad brushed the whole educated professional industry by the actions of one person or organization? Of course I believe there are very thoughtful and kind people in the secular organizations just as there are thoughtful kind people in faith based orgs. The opposite holds true in both places as well.
I'll repeat it in every post, now that I'm registered and can't be accused of remaining anonymous; I challenge you to give me the alternative. I also challenge you to give me specific actions of abuse at ANCHOR, not Mountain Park or the other faith-based facilities.
So now that you purged your self of illogical rhetoric then maybe you can educated me. Now is your chance to make an impact on the people you say are being abused.
On 2006-01-17 05:55:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
I challenge you to give up whatever it is you have in your life and open a school to help troubled teens. Can you do it better? Do you even care enough to do it? I doubt it.
These programs don't need to exist and the only reason these programs DO exist is to take advantage of the plentiful amount of ignorami such as yourself. You are a cash machine to these people. Real help is out there and intelligent people tend to find it. What does that make you? Nobody here is opening a program because they don't have the proper qualifications/experience/education, and feel it needs to be left to professionals who went to school for this sort of thing... you know, training and education? Only program parents would say something like that. You challenge them, huh? Funny stuff, it really is, and it wouldn't be nearly as funny if you knew why it was funny, which makes it all the better. Normal people care enough about teens to NOT open up a teen boot camp. You were serious though, weren't you? That says it all right there. :lol: "
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Opps, sorry, this is my registered name.
On 2006-01-17 06:26:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Once again, your logical arguments of attacking me do nothing. Why not engage in logical arguments? You really do sound silly.
You made my point by explaining that NO ONE here is an educated professional. I've worked with the so-called EDUCATED PROFESSIONALS who yell at a kid because he believes in God. You know them, the professionals that put a kid on drugs and collect their 20 dollar co-payment? That's not abusive?
Your argument is not logical on any level because you are ignoring the negative actions of the "Educated professional". My wife is in child protective services and her Educated Professional supervisor lied about certain actions taken on behalf of a 2 year old infant. Because of those lies, the infant died. (Details left out for brevity).
Do you see how I broad brushed the whole educated professional industry by the actions of one person or organization? Of course I believe there are very thoughtful and kind people in the secular organizations just as there are thoughtful kind people in faith based orgs. The opposite holds true in both places as well.
I'll repeat it in every post, now that I'm registered and can't be accused of remaining anonymous; I challenge you to give me the alternative. I also challenge you to give me specific actions of abuse at ANCHOR, not Mountain Park or the other faith-based facilities.
So now that you purged your self of illogical rhetoric then maybe you can educated me. Now is your chance to make an impact on the people you say are being abused.
On 2006-01-17 05:55:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
I challenge you to give up whatever it is you have in your life and open a school to help troubled teens. Can you do it better? Do you even care enough to do it? I doubt it.
These programs don't need to exist and the only reason these programs DO exist is to take advantage of the plentiful amount of ignorami such as yourself. You are a cash machine to these people. Real help is out there and intelligent people tend to find it. What does that make you? Nobody here is opening a program because they don't have the proper qualifications/experience/education, and feel it needs to be left to professionals who went to school for this sort of thing... you know, training and education? Only program parents would say something like that. You challenge them, huh? Funny stuff, it really is, and it wouldn't be nearly as funny if you knew why it was funny, which makes it all the better. Normal people care enough about teens to NOT open up a teen boot camp. You were serious though, weren't you? That says it all right there. :lol: "
"
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One girl, and according to you folks, he is in jail.
I find it interesting that you have a huge problem putting a 15 year old boy into a faith based facility that does put very strict rules in place but you will not hesitate to push him into the secular system that by comparison is much worse.
I posted an explanation of my experience with Anchor and the victory of my son. Yes, victory. Anchor is very strict and i talked to my son about it and it was not an easy task for him to go through the program. I posted my experience, which called no one a name, attacked no ones grammar, phrasology, or character. In just a few hours since that post I've been called ignorant, full of crap, the words I choose to express my experience have been made fun of, and the thought of my son murdering my wife was laughed at. I'm sure the girl (no grammar mistake that time) that was forced to have sex will find the banter very comical. Of course no one here is concerned with what she went or is going through!
With that said, do you really expect anyone to believe anything that comes out of your mouth? Do you expect anyone to join your cause?
On 2006-01-17 05:50:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Doing drugs, raping girls, threatening to murder people is no good for anyone and if they stop doing these things,
Girls? As in plural?
So, how many girls exactly did your son rape, and why is he not in jail?
OR
Are you full of shit?
Which is it?"
[ This Message was edited by: corecrash on 2006-01-17 06:56 ][ This Message was edited by: corecrash on 2006-01-17 08:07 ][ This Message was edited by: corecrash on 2006-01-17 08:07 ]
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I'm not grasping for straws when people in this forum over and over attack Christianity by saying, I stop reading after Amen, pass the kook-aide etc. Read the posts. They attack Christianity. Thus, It's obvious they have a problem with Christianity in general.
Just because you have some favorite christians doesn't mean everyone here does not hate Christians and Christianity.
On 2006-01-16 21:05:00, Antigen wrote:
"You're grasping at straws. Some of my favorite people on the planet happen to be Christians. But they don't condone or participate in brainwashing children (or adults, for that matter)By the year 2000, we will, I hope, raise our children to believe in human potential, not God.
--Gloria Steinam, women's rights activist
"
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Yes, you can dislike Christianity without disliking Christians. Fundies? Totally different story. Fundamentalist Christians are complete and total fascist morons trying to force their set of values and beliefs on the rest of the country and now they're gaining a foothold in the Teen Help industry. That truly frightens me.
Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground.
--Anonymous
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"
With that said, do you really expect anyone to believe anything that comes out of your mouth? Do you expect anyone to join your cause? "
::fuckoff::
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How are they "forcing" their views? Can you read your post and say that you are not "forcing" your view on anyone? I can see your point in the context of a boy being sent to a program where he is made to read the bible; however, you are refering to all Fundamentalist christians.
I can't remember a time that I walked into a church and saw the members chained to the chairs with their eyes and ears proped open.
Atheist, in my opinion, are the most verbally vicious people I have ever come across. If they choose not to believe that is their business but the ones I have experience with (maybe not all) will GO OUT OF THEIR WAY to confront a christian. The very word sets them off.
On 2006-01-17 08:17:00, WWFSMD wrote:
"Yes, you can dislike Christianity without disliking Christians. Fundies? Totally different story. Fundamentalist Christians are complete and total fascist morons trying to force their set of values and beliefs on the rest of the country and now they're gaining a foothold in the Teen Help industry. That truly frightens me.Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground.
--Anonymous
"
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"
Atheist, in my opinion, are the most verbally vicious people I have ever come across."
I'd say the same thing about you crazy program people.
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Please quote where I have been verbally vicious.
On 2006-01-17 08:41:00, Anonymous wrote:
""
Atheist, in my opinion, are the most verbally vicious people I have ever come across."
I'd say the same thing about you crazy program people. "
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You're the one who brought Xtianity into this particular conversation. Yes, most fundamentalist Xtians I know DO try and force or coerce their views on others. I also know quite a few Xtians that are completely cool with my atheism. I've spent days at sea discussing religion with them and both of us have come out the better for it having learned something.
You talk about me lumping all Fundie Xtians together, what did you just do with atheists? This is the first time I've had an exchange with you and you've already played that card.If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there are men on base.
-- Dave Barry
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:lol: I dont have a cause. My cause is to understand why parents like you send their kids away to these mindfuck factories.. thats my cause. You aint shaming or guilting anyone here, you are a psycho. and guess what, i dont care what you think about me... what a concept. expect to be treated like shit when you post on a survivors board because parents like you paid small fortunes to make sure we got our dose... its time you got yours. ::fuckoff:: "
LOL, nice argument. I especially like your ending, F Off I think it was? That's a great debating technique. Realy impresses the crowd.
Now the truth begins to come out. You are a survior right? Why did your parents put you in Anchor? What happened to you while you were there? Did you have any responsiblity at all for your trip to Montana?
I suppose it is similar to the people in prison, everyone is innocent. After all, that's why there is no crime in our country.
If you cared and experienced TRUE abuse, you would be dead set on getting that place shutdown. If you can give me proof, I'll help you. If you did experience TRUE abuse and you do not care for the others, then that just makes you selfish. But what do I know? I'm psycho for wanting a better path for my son. Not a perfect path, but a path other than prison.
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"Realy impresses the crowd. "
yep, you are a psycho. :lol:
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Played what card? I have atheist friends, I have Buddhist friends. I also have Muslim friends. I can observe and, limited to my experience in my small world, the Atheists I know work harder to prove their point than anyone else.
BTW, You are making a ton of assumptions here. I have not even professed to be a Christian.
The only reason I brought Christianity in this is because Anchor, in some posts, were being attacked for their religous affiliation. Regardless if I'm Atheist, Christian, or Agnostic, it's a bad argument to attack their belief. Attack specific actions.
Let's be real here. Everyone that has a conviction tries to coerce others. I believe Linux is better than Windows and I make that thought known. Force is the wrong word because we are in America. No one is forced. Even if you were chained to a wall, you still can't be forced to believe. That is entirely up to you.
On 2006-01-17 08:57:00, WWFSMD wrote:
"You're the one who brought Xtianity into this particular conversation. Yes, most fundamentalist Xtians I know DO try and force or coerce their views on others. I also know quite a few Xtians that are completely cool with my atheism. I've spent days at sea discussing religion with them and both of us have come out the better for it having learned something.
You talk about me lumping all Fundie Xtians together, what did you just do with atheists? This is the first time I've had an exchange with you and you've already played that card.If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there are men on base.
-- Dave Barry
"
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"
I suppose it is similar to the people in prison, everyone is innocent. "
ya I guess we will never know... they have actual trials and advocacy in the legal system.
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On 2006-01-17 08:00:00, corecrash wrote:
Just because you have some favorite christians doesn't mean everyone here does not hate Christians and Christianity.
Then what the hell was this all about? You're jumping to the conclusion that everyone here hates Xtians and Xtianity.Never underestimate the power of the status quo...America's schools are part of government, subject to public whim and will. By and large, we have the kind of schools that people want. While they acknowledge the need for improvement, in other people's schools, most American are reasonably content with their own.
--Former public school superintendent Ronald J. Perry, 1992.
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On 2006-01-17 08:39:00, corecrash wrote:
I can't remember a time that I walked into a church and saw the members chained to the chairs with their eyes and ears proped open.
<
I can think of a few million who'd like to see ID taught in science class of the public school system.
If these programs use anything remotely similar to the "12 Steps", that's coerced religion no matter how you slice it.If life were fair, Dan Quayle would be making a living asking 'Do you want fries with that?'
John Cleese
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Atheist, in my opinion, are the most verbally vicious people I have ever come across.
Here's some facts for you:
According to the 2001 World Almanac, Atheists number:
121 million in Asia
56 million in the former USSR
23 million (3.5%) in Europe
2.7 million in Latin America
1.6 million (0.5%) in North America
0.4 million in Oceania
0.4 million in Africa
The Graduate Center of the City University of New York conducted a massive interview of over 50,000 adults. They estimate that 902,000 (0.4%) of Americans identify themselves as Atheists. The number of Atheists exceeds the number of followers of all of the organized religions in the U.S., except for Christianity, Judaism, Islam and Buddhism. If one were to count the number of Agnostics among the Humanists, Unitarian Universalists, and those who refused to answer the pollster, they would probably outnumber all of the organized religions in the country, except for Christianity and perhaps Judaism.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/atheist1.htm (http://www.religioustolerance.org/atheist1.htm)
How many Atheists have you met?
BTW, You are making a ton of assumptions here.
Take your own advice.
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On 2006-01-17 08:00:00, corecrash wrote:
I'm not grasping for straws when people in this forum over and over attack
Look, this is a truely PUBLIC forum. Unlike the industry support groups, ALL viewpoints are heartily welcome. By virtue of human nature and the contentious nature of the focus of this site, virtually ALL VIEWPOINTS will be pilloried.
How can you whine about people making fun of you after all the fucked up things you've said about your own kid.
Drawing nasty pictures! :eek: Oh My, well then! Carry on, carry on! And if it doesn't work, I recomend a lobodomy (for you, leave the damned kid alone!)
Sorry, but people who have survived this sort of brainwashing as kids tend to have a short fuse for put-upon, bellyaching parents who just have NO idea what they've done to their kids or how trivial their complaints. It wouldn't be so hard to take if you actually lacked access to the information. But you don't. It's all right there before you, you simply refuse to see and then get all indignant and injured when people try to draw it out in big purple crayon for you.
Dude, I've been through a program and I've been in juvenile detention. Not that I ever did anything to put myself in detention, like hurt anybody, steal anything or cause real trouble. I was only trying to escape the Program.
By comparison, detention was a CAKE WALK! It was boring, it was lock down, but no one was harassing and nitpicking anyone all day long and we actually were allowed to sleep all night long. It was like a vacation by comparison. Everything in moderation, including moderation.
Mark Twain
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:nworthy:
(http://http://humanities.byu.edu/elc/student/idioms/idioms/images/hit_nail_on_head.jpg)
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It means what it implies. I said everyone but I should have said some. Some do hate them and some do not. That was implied, at least in my mind. But Read the post and tell me that "some" do not bash Anchor for their affiliation and beliefs.
If I did make the mistake of generalizing then I've really joined the masses in the forum.
On 2006-01-17 09:19:00, WWFSMD wrote:
"
On 2006-01-17 08:00:00, corecrash wrote:
Just because you have some favorite christians doesn't mean everyone here does not hate Christians and Christianity.
Then what the hell was this all about? You're jumping to the conclusion that everyone here hates Xtians and Xtianity.Never underestimate the power of the status quo...America's schools are part of government, subject to public whim and will. By and large, we have the kind of schools that people want. While they acknowledge the need for improvement, in other people's schools, most American are reasonably content with their own.
--Former public school superintendent Ronald J. Perry, 1992.
"
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On 2006-01-17 09:53:00, corecrash wrote:
"It means what it implies. I said everyone but I should have said some. Some do hate them and some do not.
Yes, that's true.
. But Read the post and tell me that "some" do not bash Anchor for their affiliation and beliefs.
Yes, that's true...some do. That is their right. Some people have a huge problem with the strict interpretation of the bible and an even bigger problem with trying to terrorize children with those beliefs.
If I did make the mistake of generalizing then I've really joined the masses in the forum.
'Sawright, happens to the best of us. :wave: If it is believed that... elementary schools will be better managed by the governor and council, the commissioners of the literary fund or any other general authority of the government than by the parents within each ward, it is a belief against all experience.
Thomas Jefferson
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That proves that I have not met all of the atheists. Does it prove that the ones I have met are not verbally vicious? It also proves that you have not met all "Fundies", does that prove that all Fundies FORCE Christianity on you?
On 2006-01-17 09:22:00, YuckFou wrote:
"
Atheist, in my opinion, are the most verbally vicious people I have ever come across.
Here's some facts for you:
According to the 2001 World Almanac, Atheists number:
121 million in Asia
56 million in the former USSR
23 million (3.5%) in Europe
2.7 million in Latin America
1.6 million (0.5%) in North America
0.4 million in Oceania
0.4 million in Africa
The Graduate Center of the City University of New York conducted a massive interview of over 50,000 adults. They estimate that 902,000 (0.4%) of Americans identify themselves as Atheists. The number of Atheists exceeds the number of followers of all of the organized religions in the U.S., except for Christianity, Judaism, Islam and Buddhism. If one were to count the number of Agnostics among the Humanists, Unitarian Universalists, and those who refused to answer the pollster, they would probably outnumber all of the organized religions in the country, except for Christianity and perhaps Judaism.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/atheist1.htm (http://www.religioustolerance.org/atheist1.htm)
How many Atheists have you met?
BTW, You are making a ton of assumptions here.
Take your own advice. "
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On 2006-01-17 09:58:00, corecrash wrote:
"That proves that I have not met all of the atheists. Does it prove that the ones I have met are not verbally vicious? It also proves that you have not met all "Fundies", does that prove that all Fundies FORCE Christianity on you?
The Fundies in power sure seem to be trying to do that!!!!!!!! The Fundies who are most vocal declared that ridiculous 'war on Christmas'. The vocal Fundies are trying to circumvent separation of church and state every chance they get. And the worst of the worst, the damn Fundies that claim they can fix kids with the help of Jeebus.It takes a village idiot to believe that a family needs instruction from the government to raise a child.
-- Anonymous homeschooler
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This thread should be renamed "the backward ramblings and delusional reasoning of a program parent" !
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How can you whine about people making fun of you after all the fucked up things you've said about your own kid.
I didn't make fun of my son. I stated the facts. His actions, which were in the context of praising him for his accomplishment of turning around.
Drawing nasty pictures! :eek: Oh My, well then! Carry on, carry on! And if it doesn't work, I recomend a lobodomy (for you, leave the damned kid alone!)
Make lite of his actions all you want. I hope you never have to deal with your son fantasizing about killing your wife and threating to kill because you expect a grade of C out of him.
Dude, please share why you think you were put in DH and why you were put in a home? I'm not going to pretend that there are not any parents that just want to get rid of their kid. There was a post explaining how some parents drop their kids off, never pay a dime, and never return. That is tragic and that is abusive.
Also, Please share with me what you experienced at Anchor. I'd like to know (and I don't mean this sarcastically) because my son tells me that abuse does not occur. Maybe he is scared and not telling the truth, but he has told me that he would not allow anyone to abuse him. That doesn't seem like a scared boy to me.
Sorry, but people who have survived this sort of brainwashing as kids tend to have a short fuse for put-upon, bellyaching parents who just have NO idea what they've done to their kids or how trivial their complaints. It wouldn't be so hard to take if you actually lacked access to the information. But you don't. It's all right there before you, you simply refuse to see and then get all indignant and injured when people try to draw it out in big purple crayon for you.
Dude, I've been through a program and I've been in juvenile detention. Not that I ever did anything to put myself in detention, like hurt anybody, steal anything or cause real trouble. I was only trying to escape the Program.
By comparison, detention was a CAKE WALK! It was boring, it was lock down, but no one was harassing and nitpicking anyone all day long and we actually were allowed to sleep all night long. It was like a vacation by comparison. Everything in moderation, including moderation.
Mark Twain
"
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"I suppose it is similar to the people in prison, everyone is innocent."
But different in that, flawed and overburdoned as it is, our criminal justice system is still about the best on the planet for establishing actual guilt and metting out apropriate sentences. The troubled parent industry thinks that disturbing drawings are prima facia evidence of one horrible kid.
The most fundamental purpose of government is defense, not empire.
--Joseph Sobran
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On 2006-01-17 09:53:00, corecrash wrote:
"It means what it implies. I said everyone but I should have said some. Some do hate them and some do not. That was implied, at least in my mind. But Read the post and tell me that "some" do not bash Anchor for their affiliation and beliefs.
If I did make the mistake of generalizing then I've really joined the masses in the forum.
Honestly? I've recently discovered a smouldering resentment for people who routinly behave badly then grab the priest and cry sanctuary.
See, I was raised in the church. Went to Christian school and sunday school, VBS and those dry, boring bible studies led by my brother in law, the deacon. I thought they were good people. More than that, special people to me and exceptionally decent, compassionate and sensible.
Then I was abducted into the Twilight Zone for a couple of years. It wasn't an austensibly religious program, either. But when I got out, I was virtually orphaned. Lost touch w/ those good folks who, by then, were afraid of me because of all the bullshit my mother had been telling them about me while I was locked up. And I got to know some other Christians, all too well. There are the Roloff deciples, of course, the Mormon gulag operators and yer run o the mill Pat Robertson types who go around taking out hits on foreign leaders and blaming God for people like Ray Nagin's incompetence and hubris.
I thought I must have just not noticed how hypocritical and vindictive these folks were, being that I was so young and raised in close community with them.
I've recently rediscovered that I wasn't trippin' after all. These were decent people. I do still draw on much that they taught me over those early years. And it does get my goat when people like the ones who run Anchor jump state to escape investigation and scrutiny and a whole herd of mindless bozos like you discard out of hand the valid complaints that have follwed them for half a century now and insist that it's just that we all hate Christians.
No, you're wrong. We hate child abusers, even self deluded ones. Not even that, really. The church says God loves the sinner and hates the sin. I'm not God and I'm not that generous. I hate the child abuse and am pretty nearly completely indifferent to the child abusers.
God grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked anyway, the good fortune to run into the ones I do, and the eyesight to tell the difference.
Perl Services
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Yea, I guess rape is not a very good indicator either.
An our court system does not care about these kids. They let the child welfare system take care of it. Those systems do whatever is cheaper. That system will put a kid back in the home of a crack head parent if Children Services cannot find a cost effective means to deal with it. come on, do you really think the courts or an underpaid social worker that is burnt out cares what ultimately happens to that kid? Again, some do, but listening to the experinces of my wife, a social work in arena of child protective services, they do not care.
The people we spoke to in the court system itself advices us to do whatever possible to keep him out of the system.
The real issue is what to do with a teenager that is completely off the hook. Talking to him doens't help. Sticking him in DH with kids that are worse than him doesn't help. If he won't listen or cooperate with counselors then what?Let him run the streets in hope that he'll find his way home?
I don't think Anchor is perfect. I don't agree with every single action, but nor do I agree with the courts or our "Educated Professionals". If it were up to them, my son would be drugged and they would have collected their fee.
The only evidence I have to base my view on is how my son is now. What comes out of his mouth and how his future appears to be or how his self-esteem appears to be. Right, I can't measure it, but I can observe his behaviors. Maybe he'll revert, I can't know that until it happens.
No one else has given me any evidence. Maybe there was some early on in this forum? I searched the internet before we took him to Anchor and there was nothing on Anchor. I talked to the Mayor and the Sherriff in Havre and they both praised the facility.
On 2006-01-17 10:48:00, Antigen wrote:
""I suppose it is similar to the people in prison, everyone is innocent."
But different in that, flawed and overburdoned as it is, our criminal justice system is still about the best on the planet for establishing actual guilt and metting out apropriate sentences. The troubled parent industry thinks that disturbing drawings are prima facia evidence of one horrible kid.
The most fundamental purpose of government is defense, not empire.
--Joseph Sobran
"
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You still have not shared what abuse you endured at Anchor or the other facility. You also have not shared what actions you committed that made your parents believe you should be there.
I'm disillusioned by some christians as well. I'm also disillusioned by people that are not christians. Being a Christian doesn't by default make a person satisfy all of your expectiation or mine.
I disillusioned by people that blame everyone else for their problems and will not lift a finger to better themselves.
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On 2006-01-17 11:29:00, corecrash wrote:
"You still have not shared what abuse you endured at Anchor or the other facility. You also have not shared what actions you committed that made your parents believe you should be there.
Are you talking to me or Antigen?
I disillusioned by people that blame everyone else for their problems and will not lift a finger to better themselves.
"
I'm disillusioned by people who send their kids away to be raised by strangers. :roll: He who joyfully marches in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would suffice.
--Albert Einstein
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Corecrash, You would not be here posting time after time if you were not concerned about the placement of your son at some basic level. I want you to listen to your gut instincts about WHY you are concerned about your choice about placing your son at Anchor, and listen carefully.
You, and you alone, get to live with that decision down the road. IF your son is being abused, then YOU get to answer to your son about why you placed him there, and WHY you left him there. Read about Roloff Ministries, and Mountain Park. Anchor is a spin-off of these schools, and you can't deny that! Leave your son at Anchor, if you choose. But stop trying to justify your actions.
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I'm disillusioned by people who send their kids away to be raised by strangers. :roll:
Hmm. Versus letting the court system stick them in a place to let worse off thugs raise them? Dude your logic is interesting. Do you realize that people come out of prison and instiutions with aids, drug problems, sexual problems etc.. ?
You call other people a child abuser but you make it sound as if you would just do nothing and let the child do what he wants? The educated professionals say; however, that if you do not do something with your child, they will do it for you! That's why foster care agencies cannot find enough foster care homes. While we are on the subject, what would you do?
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You seem to have all the right answers, Corecrash. Why don't you raise your own son the RIGHT WAY instead of sending him off to some abusive facility?
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Ahh..but you are not reading my posts. I told my son that he could stay. His mother told him she wanted him to stay. He wanted to go back. So no I didn't keep him there. He kept himself there.
Actually, the reason I'm here is because my wife directed me here. She works with troubled teens and she reads about troubled teens. Imagine that, her finding this.
On 2006-01-17 11:44:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Corecrash, You would not be here posting time after time if you were not concerned about the placement of your son at some basic level. I want you to listen to your gut instincts about WHY you are concerned about your choice about placing your son at Anchor, and listen carefully.
You, and you alone, get to live with that decision down the road. IF your son is being abused, then YOU get to answer to your son about why you placed him there, and WHY you left him there. Read about Roloff Ministries, and Mountain Park. Anchor is a spin-off of these schools, and you can't deny that! Leave your son at Anchor, if you choose. But stop trying to justify your actions."
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Foster kids in Tx are five (5) times more likely to be killed or injured in out-of-home placements. I'd say leave them alone, their chances of safely maturing are 5 times greater at home.
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You mean what DID I do? I have two kids who are thankfully coming out of the teen years now. Had one kid who did a shitload of Ecstacy, cocaine and a miriade of other drugs, stayed gone from home for days, was completely argumentative and angry to the point where she would pick fights with her sister and then take a baseball bat to her sister's room.
In the first place I always talked honestly with my kids. I didn't throw a bunch of hype and propoganda about drug use at them. I didn't freak out when they started to experiment with different substances. I understood that rebellion and extremely poor decision making are a part of growing up. A very important part not to be skipped. Once she started having to answer for her actions she began to grow up and out of the idiotic behavior. I was really scared for a while but I knew that doing nothing was FAR superior to sending her away somewhere.
Do you realize that people come out of prison and instiutions with aids, drug problems, sexual problems etc.. ?
Dude, do you realize that kids come out of programs far more likely to get in worse trouble than before they went in? Do you realize that all those things you described above can and do happen in programs? Speaking as a program vet, I would MUCH rather have been in some kind of juvenile detention than where I was. At least I would have had some rights in juvy. My ex-husband has been to prison and was in a program and says HANDS DOWN he was abused far more in the program than in prison. He was there for about 5 years, the program for a little over 2.
Infidel: In New York, one who does not believe in the Christian religion; in Constantinople, one who does.
--Ambrose Bierce
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Proclaiming my dis-tastes for goverment ran programs, prisons, foster homes is not knowing it all. I know very little. I know that my son can now move on with his life if he chooses too.
On 2006-01-17 12:11:00, Anonymous wrote:
"You seem to have all the right answers, Corecrash. Why don't you raise your own son the RIGHT WAY instead of sending him off to some abusive facility?"
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On 2006-01-17 12:13:00, corecrash wrote:
"Ahh..but you are not reading my posts. I told my son that he could stay. His mother told him she wanted him to stay. He wanted to go back. So no I didn't keep him there. He kept himself there.
Yeah, I'm sure he did. I would have done the same at the time I was in my program. The fear of what might happen if I didn't would have been enough. I knew what would happen if I rejected their "lifestyle" in any way. Life may have no meaning. Or even worse, it may have a meaning of which I disapprove.
Ashleigh Brilliant
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Corecrash: You have taken away any of this boy's real choices by placing him him this facility. You, yourself, question this placement, and it is evident in your postings. Otherwise, you would have placed him, been confident in your decision, and not be posting here seeking justification for your placement. IF YOU ARE IN FACT A FATHER WHO PLACED HIS SON IN THE FIRST PLACE.
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On 2006-01-17 12:17:00, corecrash wrote:
I know that my son can now move on with his life if he chooses too.
He always could. You just allowed people to fuck with his mind so it may take him a while to figure things out. And watch out when he DOES understand exactly what was done to him. It ain't gonna be pretty.Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.
--Albert Einstein
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No, I'm not seeking justification from people who themselves have done time in prison and can't manage their own life.
I posted to give my experience and to execute my small piece of freedom of speech. What I got back was name calling, circular thinking, and not one single shred of evidence, a link to any indication of anchor being what you say it is, or a single person that will profess why their parents put them in Anchor.
On 2006-01-17 12:22:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Corecrash: You have taken away any of this boy's real choices by placing him him this facility. You, yourself, question this placement, and it is evident in your postings. Otherwise, you would have placed him, been confident in your decision, and not be posting here seeking justification for your placement. IF YOU ARE IN FACT A FATHER WHO PLACED HIS SON IN THE FIRST PLACE."
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On 2006-01-17 12:35:00, corecrash wrote:
"No, I'm not seeking justification from people who themselves have done time in prison and can't manage their own life.
Who are you directing that towards?
Did you look into the origins of Anchor?Real criminals walk free every day to rape, rob, and murder again because the courts are so busy finding consensual criminals guilty of hurting no one but themselves.... To free cells for consensual criminals, real criminals are put on the street every day.
Peter McWilliams
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Well, I have never been in jail or prision. BUT I have looked into the origins of Anchor Academy; and I have read about Roloff Ministries, and Mountain Park. And Brother Dennis, as you call him: has been associated with both of these abusive facilities--and knowing that: I would never place my child at Anchor Academy. You also need to read every posting about Anchor Academy here on Fornits. Former Students of Anchor Academy have posted about abuse at this facility. IF you are really concerned about your son's welfare, you will do the work/research yourself.
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On 2006-01-17 12:13:00, corecrash wrote:
Ahh..but you are not reading my posts. I told my son that he could stay. His mother told him she wanted him to stay.
If my father had said that to me when I was on the highest phase of my program, I would have assumed it was a fidelity test--a trick--and lied right to his face.
I don't know as I'll have time to catch up w/ this whole thread. But you asked me why I got sent off. I'll tell you why; because my mother had joined a local cult called the Seed about 10 years prior and had put each of her minor kids in their program.
When I hit puberty, I found out (predictably enough) that she was plotting to do the same to me. So I ran away. I hitchhiked to my sister's home in Massachusetts, hoping that she'd let me stay and get a job and just not tell anybody I was there. But she did, and I didn't have the heart to leave her holding the bag for letting me get away. My dear mother could be extremely ruthless and, well, my sister was a decent person just starting a family. I figured I had less liability than she.
Why my mother thought I needed drug treatment, well that's easy ALL teenagers need the Seed, except those who behave about like Mark David Chappman (who, coincidentally or not, attended the very same, very orthodoxed Presby college up in the hills of Tennessee as my older sister did. Missed each other by only a matter of months, actually)
You can believe me or not, but bear in mind that I'm not some punk kid who's angry w/ her parents. I'm 40 years old. My eldest is 21 now. Trust me on this, we've been through hell and high water. Basically, I paid the ticket, she rode the ride. I wasn't doing anything to get myself locked up, except trying to escape the Seed.
And why? Cause they were strict? Cause I wanted to avoid my problems and just get high? No, none of that. At the age of 16, I got myself to school every day, never skipped or even cut class. I got decent grades, except in algebra (which bedeviled me for 3 years till I finally managed to squeek by) I had had a total of two detentions for clowning around in class, no arrests, no accusations of illegal or antisocial behavior, no fights... nothing. I was just trying to duck and cover and get through the next two years w/o getting brainwashed like my older brothers and sister.
I was TERRIFIED of that! I couldn't articulate it, but there was something very creepy and different about them when they came out the other end. There was this deep sadness and... cowed bearing underlying their blithe, vacant smiles. And they didn't hang around much, either. Sure, they were extremely polite and downright deferent to my mother where they had been yer typical wise assed Irish kids before. But it wasn't respect or affection behind it, it was fear, same as mine. That's why they made themselves scarce. My mom could fit ANYthing into one or more of the "warning signs".
In fact, I just spoke w/ a former Seed staffer a few months back and he confirmed my suspicions. Not only were my parents trying to get me placed there, but they were trying to get my older sister started over as well. For drugs? No. Bad attitude? Not even close. She was too busy working and studying to get into any sort of trouble. It's that they didn't like her boyfriend. Well, I didn't like him either, quite frankly. But you don't club someone over the head and have them brainwashed just because you don't like their choice in friends. Not in the real world, anyway. Only in the TOUGHLOVE hategroup is that sort of thing acceptable.
For whatever reason, the Seed wouldn't take me. I'll never know why. There's not a soul alive anymore who would know and who has more than a nodding acquaintance w/ the truth of the matter. So they kept on looking, just like a hypochondriac (Munchausen by proxy, maybe?) shopping for the "right" doctor. They found Straight, Inc. Might just as easily have found Bethel, as I learned some years later that at least two of my friends got shipped off to the Roloff's for "treatment" not long after I got dissapeared.
So that's my story of how I was held captive and tortured by Republicans for two years. Yeah, I know your story. Not the specific details, but the script is as old as the hills and just as dusty. You started out concerned for your son and took him for evaluation. Through mystical, magical expertise in taming the wild teenager monster, they confirmed your worst fears.
The trouble is, these are no experts and their wild tales of devil worshiping dangerous monsters have about as much veracity as James Frey's million little lies.
You should be allowed to do whatever you want with your own person and property, as long as you don't physically harm the person or property of a nonconsenting other.
Peter McWilliams - Ain't Nobody's Business If I Do
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This is an old post, but wow you are absolutely wrong. My wife works for child protective services. If a parent fails to keep their kid at home, make them go to school, or keep them out of trouble the kid will be taken away put in a program of the states choice, including boot camps, and you will find yourself going to parenting class and paying child support to the state. If you fail, you will go to jail. If you do not believe this, ask any parent involved with the system due to letting their teen find their own way.
On 2005-10-15 07:29:00, AtomicAnt wrote:
"
On 2005-10-15 06:36:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I feel quite sure that pastor and dad do not want children abused. And you are right. Laws need to be changed. Especially the laws that do not allow parents to legallly let their teenager suffer the natural consequences of their behavior. If a child runs and a parent doesn't use all possible resources to find him and keep him at home, the parent is charged with abandonment, no matter how badly the teen says he doesn't want to be home and follow the rules. Parents have to "use every resource" to protect the child by law. Too often the only resource left is a program. It is not legal to let a kid hit rock bottom on their own and then make a decision if they want their parents help or not. Parents HAVE to stop the runaway. Kids know this. Yes...Laws MUST be changed, not only to protect the kids, but to help the kids learn from their own mistakes and to protect the parents that would like to let their child learn from life's experiences."
Either I missed the memo, or this is bullshit.
In many states, running away is no longer considered a criminal act. In some States, harboring a runaway is no longer a crime provided you do not deny the child is with you to law enforcement or parents; then it becomes kidnapping.
I know parents of run away kids here who have informed me that it can be legally difficult to force the child to return home. If the legal system gets involved in at all, Family Services and Family Court determine the child's fate, not the parents.
Go the Covenant House website and you will find stories about 'throw away' teenagers whose families refuse to allow them to return home. There is no mention of legal action against these parents."
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We just got off the phone with our son about 5 minutes ago. We told him about this forum and asked him, do you know that you can come home anytime you want without any form of consequence? He said he did know and he wanted to stay and graduate. I am sure you will say that call was monitored and he was forced to say something, but I know it is not monitored because we have had conversations about him coming home before. We had conversations when he was on a staff cell phone with no possibility of monitoring.
Tonight, He was proud because he passed his algebra test. Our son has struggled with Algebra since he was first introduced to it. None of the educated professionals would lift a hand to help him, except one extraordinary teacher. He cried and pleaded not to have to take it but he finally overcame and was successful. He is excited that he is going to graduate from high school and expressed that he thought he would never make it before Anchor. Wow, the abuse and evil is so pervasive there.
I also asked him what Red Shirting was. It does not exist there any longer. He did tell me that from what he was told it was for kids that continuously break major rules like stealing and threatening.
In addition, it is interesting to know that our son informed us tonight that Eric M. is now in prison. Of course, I can hear the masses say that Anchor is bad and put Eric M. in prison because of the abuse; but it shows that Anchor is not for everyone and not everyone that the "Educated Professionals" help take advantage of the situation and come out on top.
Our son indicated that the majority of kids completely over exaggerate and we all know that is true, our son over exaggerated way before Anchor and now admits it and has come forward with what actually happened.
Nevertheless, I bet I just wasted 10 minutes of my time because you will find some illogical unproven reason why it is not a valid example. He is a Stepford kid, he has been brainwashed. Well all I can say is that I'm proud of him and I'm proud that he takes pride in his accomplishments of getting a car, yes at Anchor he is buying a car and received his drivers license about a year ago. Is that abusive?
I am proud that he finally, after many years, has beaten algebra! I can hear the sense of accomplishment in his voice! He has more to go, but I know he can do it.
And that?s all I have to say about that.
[ This Message was edited by: corecrash on 2006-01-17 19:24 ][ This Message was edited by: corecrash on 2006-01-17 19:25 ]
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:wstupid: :wave: :razz:
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So that's my story of how I was held captive and tortured by Republicans for two years. Yeah, I know your story. Not the specific details, but the script is as old as the hills and just as dusty. You started out concerned for your son and took him for evaluation. Through mystical, magical expertise in taming the wild teenager monster, they confirmed your worst fears.
The trouble is, these are no experts and their wild tales of devil worshiping dangerous monsters have about as much veracity as James Frey's million little lies.
That is not even close to our story. Furthermore, we were never told that he would fall into devil worship etc. You are way off base. That is ok; you could not know my situation.
I am very sorry that you endured what you did for no reason. I would think it very rare that a straight A student without a trace of defiant behavior would find themselves in a behavior modification facility. Maybe it is not rare. Your mother sounds like a lazy tramp that only wanted to get rid of you for her benefit. That is very sad and I am glad you have come out of it ok.
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On 2006-01-17 19:46:00, corecrash wrote:
I would think it very rare that a straight A student without a trace of defiant behavior would find themselves in a behavior modification facility. Maybe it is not rare.
Trust me, its not. I was in the same place as Antigen and I'd say that the majority (98%) were pretty typical teens that were unlucky enough to have parents that bought into the whole fear mongering bullshit that was thrown at them. Facts are, yes FACTS, that most kids will grow out of whatever behavior is freaking out the grown-ups. I was told that all my pre-program friends were the unlucky ones who's parents didn't care enough about them to put them somewhere where they could get the "help" they needed. All those kids were gonna DIE without the programs divine intervention. They're all fine and I'm stuck with nightmares and a family that has been in shambles for over 20 years (my parents and myself.....my husband and kids are fine now that I got them away from the lunatic fringe). You can't even yet fathom the damage you're doing to the relationship between you and your son.I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me.
-- Hunter S. Thompson
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This is an old post, but wow you are absolutely wrong. My wife works for child protective services. If a parent fails to keep their kid at home, make them go to school, or keep them out of trouble the kid will be taken away put in a program of the states choice, including boot camps, and you will find yourself going to parenting class and paying child support to the state. If you fail, you will go to jail. If you do not believe this, ask any parent involved with the system due to letting their teen find their own way.
I'll look into it further. My post came only from Internet research, but I have met some people that work in the Juvenile Justice system of my State. I'll check with them. Of course, the point is so old, I can't remember the context of discussion.
So far, I found wide variations between States. Some States require parental permission before Police can take a runaway into custody. Some States only cover runaways if they are 15 and under. Some say that the teen can only be apprehended if they have violated some statute such as curfew or truancy. In general, Police are reluctant to take teens into custody unless they listed as missing because they don't want to go through the vague legal hassles. It is all very vague, in general.
Teen shelters operate in a gray area of the law. It often isn't clear if the law requires them to notify parents or not. It also isn't clear if it is legal for them to shelter and aid runaways. Because of the services they provide, law enforcement does not normally interfere.
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I do understand your point and I do believe that abuse will damage a child. We have diverged to many different subjects, notably Christianity and Drug and criminal reform.
It still stands that the subject of this forum is if Dennis McElwrath abuses the teenagers at Anchor Academy.
It is my conclusion from reading this entire forum, talking to my son, and researching the little information available on Anchor and Dennis, that he does not abuse those boys.
The word abuse carries with it certain connotations. An abuser has certain motivations that make the abusers actions abusive. That is why extreme liberals claim having a kid do dishes or shovel the snow is abuse, if it's not without pay. Well, my household is indicative of a social system and you must put in and take out. Doing chores is putting in and doing your part and it's not abuse. It also teaches other important life skills.
When I was a child, I played football and I was made to run, do push-ups, leg lifts, etc. This according to you is abuse and I certainly hated it! I wanted to quit, I thought it was unfair and at 13 years old I thought it was abusive. However, my coach?s motivation was to strengthen my body so that I would not get injured during a game. It was also a method to build character and leadership abilities. That was not abuse.
At 15, I wrestled and was encouraged to limit our food intake to make weight. We ran with layers of clothes on to drain our body of fluid to lose that one last pound. This taught tenacity and perseverance. Was the coach abusing us? No, at the time I hated it and wanted to quit, it taught me a lot and I did not die.
You all can call my a psycho I don't care but I guess I'm with the other few million psychos, football coaches, wrestling coaches, drill sergeants, high school teachers, prison wardens, and drug counselors.
It will be interesting to see the next wave of intelligent debating skills laden with name-calling and abusive language. :smile: Then some of you have the gall to wonder why you found yourself in a place you would rather not be and to this day continue to blame everyone else in society for your problems.
On 2006-01-17 19:55:00, WWFSMD wrote:
"
On 2006-01-17 19:46:00, corecrash wrote:
I would think it very rare that a straight A student without a trace of defiant behavior would find themselves in a behavior modification facility. Maybe it is not rare.
Trust me, its not. I was in the same place as Antigen and I'd say that the majority (98%) were pretty typical teens that were unlucky enough to have parents that bought into the whole fear mongering bullshit that was thrown at them. Facts are, yes FACTS, that most kids will grow out of whatever behavior is freaking out the grown-ups. I was told that all my pre-program friends were the unlucky ones who's parents didn't care enough about them to put them somewhere where they could get the "help" they needed. All those kids were gonna DIE without the programs divine intervention. They're all fine and I'm stuck with nightmares and a family that has been in shambles for over 20 years (my parents and myself.....my husband and kids are fine now that I got them away from the lunatic fringe). You can't even yet fathom the damage you're doing to the relationship between you and your son.I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence, or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me.
-- Hunter S. Thompson
"
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Good point. Some states probably do differ. I can only draw from what my wife has experienced. The state I live pretty much doesn't need permission to do anything. I've seen cases where the child is taken for very small reason. Skipping school is a big one here.
Shelters are required to notify the parents though. It's unfortunate that once a child is in the system, going to program and to court, it seems to begin a downward spiral for the majority. That's not to say that some kids come out of it unscathed.
On 2006-01-18 04:32:00, AtomicAnt wrote:
"
This is an old post, but wow you are absolutely wrong. My wife works for child protective services. If a parent fails to keep their kid at home, make them go to school, or keep them out of trouble the kid will be taken away put in a program of the states choice, including boot camps, and you will find yourself going to parenting class and paying child support to the state. If you fail, you will go to jail. If you do not believe this, ask any parent involved with the system due to letting their teen find their own way.
I'll look into it further. My post came only from Internet research, but I have met some people that work in the Juvenile Justice system of my State. I'll check with them. Of course, the point is so old, I can't remember the context of discussion.
So far, I found wide variations between States. Some States require parental permission before Police can take a runaway into custody. Some States only cover runaways if they are 15 and under. Some say that the teen can only be apprehended if they have violated some statute such as curfew or truancy. In general, Police are reluctant to take teens into custody unless they listed as missing because they don't want to go through the vague legal hassles. It is all very vague, in general.
Teen shelters operate in a gray area of the law. It often isn't clear if the law requires them to notify parents or not. It also isn't clear if it is legal for them to shelter and aid runaways. Because of the services they provide, law enforcement does not normally interfere."
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My question to you again Corecrash: if you are so SURE everything is just so wonderful at Anchor Academy--why are you here posting? You sure aren't going to convince any of us to send our sons to Anchor. What's your point? We've done the research and we know all we need to know about Brother Dennis and his connections to two of the most abusive facilities in this industry. You're the one with a son there, not us!
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On 2006-01-18 05:11:00, corecrash wrote:
"I do understand your point and I do believe that abuse will damage a child. We have diverged to many different subjects, notably Christianity and Drug and criminal reform.
Its kind of hard to avoid when talking about these places.
It still stands that the subject of this forum is if Dennis McElwrath abuses the teenagers at Anchor Academy.
There's plenty of abuse reported at Roloff's from which I understand Anchor came from as well as Dennis. That would be scary enough for me.
When I was a child, I played football and I was made to run, do push-ups, leg lifts, etc. This according to you is abuse
You quoted my text so I'm assuming you're speaking to me. Where did I ever say that physical exercise in THAT context is abuse?
and I certainly hated it! I wanted to quit, I thought it was unfair and at 13 years old I thought it was abusive. However, my coach?s motivation was to strengthen my body so that I would not get injured during a game. It was also a method to build character and leadership abilities. That was not abuse.
At 15, I wrestled and was encouraged to limit our food intake to make weight. We ran with layers of clothes on to drain our body of fluid to lose that one last pound. This taught tenacity and perseverance. Was the coach abusing us? No, at the time I hated it and wanted to quit, it taught me a lot and I did not die.
This argument holds no water. Those were choices that you made to enter into sports. You were aware that there would be difficult physical training involved. I also don't know of many coaches that would keep their jobs for long if humiliation, withholding of food as punishment[/b], forced confession etc. were part of their training routine.
It will be interesting to see the next wave of intelligent debating skills laden with name-calling and abusive language. :smile: Then some of you have the gall to wonder why you found yourself in a place you would rather not be and to this day continue to blame everyone else in society for your problems.
My you're sancitmonious this morning! I don't think I've called you any names. ARe you saying that because kids call people names and use abusive language that they deserve to be locked away in one of these "camps"?? I don't blame everyone in society for my "problems". The only "problem" I blame my program for is tearing apart my family and trying to break my spirit at such a young age. I think I've done pretty well to come out of that with my sanity somewhat intact.Arms in the hands of citizens [may] be used at individual discretion...in private self-defense...
-- John Adams, (1788)
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Nahh..I just pressed the quote button but it was not specifically to you. You make more sense than anyone else on the forum, well recent posts that is. You have made me think more than anyone else.
You are right in that I had a choice in my participation.
Not directed to you, but when I read posts from adults that are survivors of these places and the posts amount to nothing more than name-calling and profanity, you really have to wonder what else they were/are into. Maybe nothing, but a critical thinking individual cannot help but wonder what kind of person that is.
I have a small pool of experiences compared to the set of possible life experiences. Those experiences include watching people from my High School, which was considered a good school in the 80?s kill themselves, fall into addiction and eventually prison, become thieves, or just generally live a difficult life. Maybe they are happy but they give no indication of it.
It sounds like we take a risk no matter what we do as a parent. The parents of one of my high school friends took the approach to let him come out of it on is own. He died of a heart attack while freebasing cocaine when he was 20 years old. My biological father took the approach to let my brother Chris do what he needed to do and come out of it on his own. Chris is in prison for the next 10 years for armed assault and attempted murder. My ex-girlfriend?s father felt that it was wise and an avenue for closeness to allow his daughter to smoke pot. He thought it would curb her curiosity and she would get over it. Today, 20 years later, she is held hostage by addiction to painkillers and marijuana. She is in and out of trouble with the authorities for theft, drug possession, and she cannot ever have a real relationship with anyone because they end up being an avenue for drug procurement.
That is only 3 of the total population, and certainly not all the examples I've seen, but those are pretty real and risky chances just as tough love programs appear to be risky from what I'm reading in these forums. I think personally I would rather take a chance on the tough love side and pay for counseling in the end because the educated professionals find it hard to help those that are dead.
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On 2006-01-18 05:36:00, Anonymous wrote:
"My question to you again Corecrash: if you are so SURE everything is just so wonderful at Anchor Academy--why are you here posting? You sure aren't going to convince any of us to send our sons to Anchor. What's your point? We've done the research and we know all we need to know about Brother Dennis and his connections to two of the most abusive facilities in this industry. You're the one with a son there, not us!"
:question:
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Yea, I'm not going to answer your question because I answered it in previous posts and it's implied in the totality of my posts.
On 2006-01-18 07:05:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-01-18 05:36:00, Anonymous wrote:
"My question to you again Corecrash: if you are so SURE everything is just so wonderful at Anchor Academy--why are you here posting? You sure aren't going to convince any of us to send our sons to Anchor. What's your point? We've done the research and we know all we need to know about Brother Dennis and his connections to two of the most abusive facilities in this industry. You're the one with a son there, not us!"
:question: "
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On 2006-01-18 06:57:00, corecrash wrote:
You are right in that I had a choice in my participation.
You also didn't have to endure forced confession to your team, humiliation and degredation to the point of anihilation of your spirit.
Not directed to you, but when I read posts from adults that are survivors of these places and the posts amount to nothing more than name-calling and profanity, you really have to wonder what else they were/are into. Maybe nothing, but a critical thinking individual cannot help but wonder what kind of person that is.
Yeah, its an unfortunate side effect of being raised in one of those places.
I have a small pool of experiences compared to the set of possible life experiences. Those experiences include watching people from my High School, which was considered a good school in the 80?s kill themselves, fall into addiction and eventually prison, become thieves, or just generally live a difficult life. Maybe they are happy but they give no indication of it.
Yeah, I think we've all known people like that. I'm not understanding the point you're trying to make here. These places are good and righteous because you know some people who screwed up their lives?
It sounds like we take a risk no matter what we do as a parent. The parents of one of my high school friends took the approach to let him come out of it on is own. He died of a heart attack while freebasing cocaine when he was 20 years old. My biological father took the approach to let my brother Chris do what he needed to do and come out of it on his own. Chris is in prison for the next 10 years for armed assault and attempted murder. My ex-girlfriend?s father felt that it was wise and an avenue for closeness to allow his daughter to smoke pot. He thought it would curb her curiosity and she would get over it. Today, 20 years later, she is held hostage by addiction to painkillers and marijuana. She is in and out of trouble with the authorities for theft, drug possession, and she cannot ever have a real relationship with anyone because they end up being an avenue for drug procurement.
That is only 3 of the total population, and certainly not all the examples I've seen, but those are pretty real and risky chances just as tough love programs appear to be risky from what I'm reading in these forums. I think personally I would rather take a chance on the tough love side and pay for counseling in the end because the educated professionals find it hard to help those that are dead.
"
Well, according to the place I was in (and its virtually identical to what I've read throughout these forums) all the kids I was hanging out with before going in were going to be dead, insane or in jail if they didn't get the programs special brand of "help". Guess what? They're all fine! They all went on to live productive, fulfilling lives while I was struggling to pick up the pieces of my psyche that had been shattered to pieces.Don't let your dogma run out in front of your karma.
--Anonymous
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Yeah, its an unfortunate side effect of being raised in one of those places.
It's not a side effect if the behavior was there before they attended ANY program be it faith based or goverment ran.
Yeah, I think we've all known people like that. I'm not understanding the point you're trying to make here. These places are good and righteous because you know some people who screwed up their lives?
Remember, I'm not claiming ANY program is righteous. Every program in this country is only as good as the individual makes it. My son thrived at Anchor, others don't. Some thrive in drug rehab others rebell and use it as an excuse to plunge deeper into whatever they are into.
Well, according to the place I was in (and its virtually identical to what I've read throughout these forums) all the kids I was hanging out with before going in were going to be dead, insane or in jail if they didn't get the programs special brand of "help". Guess what? They're all fine! They all went on to live productive, fulfilling lives while I was struggling to pick up the pieces of my psyche that had been shattered to pieces.
However, according to your viewpoint, which I do not believe is invalid, neither is mine, no one can succeed, and everyone is abused in these programs. According to my son and a few other people that post here, this is not true. However, when they do claim it is not true you label them as brain washed Stepford kids. You cannot discount the achievements of some by saying they are now part of the problem. Drug addicts do this when their using friend reforms and they can no longer count on them as a co-partier. That is from the mouth of an educated professional. Not me but a chemical dependency counselor we went to while our son was in drug rehab. Supported by the state, whom I might add, restrict phone calls from parents after the first 30 days and none for the first month. Note that every staff has a degree, and directors have a masters or PhD in their respective fields.
Therefore, if you can use a few people for your examples, then I can use a few for mine. Note I used words like "some" and phrases like "Only 3 of the total population.? I am indicating that my sample size is small. You have indicated that your sample size is drawn from the entire population.
[ This Message was edited by: corecrash on 2006-01-18 08:28 ]
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On 2006-01-18 08:22:00, corecrash wrote:
It's not a side effect if the behavior was there before they attended ANY program be it faith based or goverment ran.
You're assuming that it was there before, why?
Remember, I'm not claiming ANY program is righteous. Every program in this country is only as good as the individual makes it. My son thrived at Anchor, others don't.
I know you believe that, I just doubt it.
Some thrive in drug rehab others rebell and use it as an excuse to plunge deeper into whatever they are into.
Are you trying to be condescending or does it just come naturally to you? Some don't have a goddamn drug problem in the first place. Why does it have to be that anyone who is "rebellious" towards treatment is just in "denial" or using criticism of programs as "an excuse"?
However, according to your viewpoint, which I do not believe is invalid, neither is mine, no one can succeed, and everyone is abused in these programs.
We can get into a semantical argument here. Yours and my definitions of success I think would be very different.
According to my son and a few other people that post here, this is not true. However, when they do claim it is not true you label them as brain washed Stepford kids.
No, I haven't done that but it's a likely after having been in a thought reform camp. Read these, its very similar if not identical to the kinds of practices these programs employ.
http://www.ex-cult.org/General/lifton-criteria (http://www.ex-cult.org/General/lifton-criteria)
http://www.ex-cult.org/General/singer-conditions (http://www.ex-cult.org/General/singer-conditions)
http://www.ex-cult.org/bite.html (http://www.ex-cult.org/bite.html)
You cannot discount the achievements of some by saying they are now part of the problem. Drug addicts do this when their using friend reforms and they can no longer count on them as a co-partier. That is from the mouth of an educated professional. Not me but a chemical dependency counselor we went to while our son was in drug rehab. Supported by the state, whom I might add, restrict phone calls from parents after the first 30 days and none for the first month. Note that every staff has a degree, and directors have a masters or PhD in their respective fields.
Yep, you betcha they're part of the problem. This view of teens and the whole propoganda machine has been running for so long that a lot of "professionals" just accept it at face value without even bothering to do any real, unbiased research into it.
Therefore, if you can use a few people for your examples, then I can use a few for mine.
I wrote about my pre-program friends in response to your anecdote about your high school buds.
Note I used words like "some" and phrases like "Only 3 of the total population.? I am indicating that my sample size is small. You have indicated that your sample size is drawn from the entire population.
No I haven't. That's what you're reading into it.To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical.
Thomas Jefferson
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However, according to your viewpoint, which I do not believe is invalid, neither is mine, no one can succeed, and everyone is abused in these programs.a
Ya still don't get it do ya? This is not that complicated, sir. You are not the first to come here desperately posting over and over just like you have. You are not special or unique.
Here is the obvious answer, that everyone seems to know, excluding you. These type of facilities are known for abusing kids, have horrible track records and have been documented by the NHI and NMHA to NOT work and actually do emotional harm to teens. Most importantly of all, there is already help out there available at NON abusive and NON emotionally stressful treatment hospitals. Your argument states it's these types of 'programs' or nothing. That is completely false logic, and dangerous thinking for your kids.
You say your son is a rapists? You say he has anger issues? Why don't you want to get him some serious and real help with his issues and help him out in the future? Why do you go to the back-alley version of treatment, the absolute least effective form of treatment?
If my kid got hit by a car, and I instead of taking him to a hospital, took him to my friend with no medical training to 'fix him' wouldn't you think that is strange? Wouldn't you ask why I don't just take him to the real hospital for help? You are doing the same thing. You are putting a bandaid on a blood gushing, mortal wound, and it won't hold for long.
You have managed to find the bottom-of-the-barrel treatment for teens, and now are spending your days and nights defending this to a bunch of strangers on a website. And you don't see anything weird about this???? The rest of us sure do. Time for a reality check, sir.
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, no one can succeed, and everyone is abused in these programs
Of course EVERYONE is not abused. But some are. Are you willing to take that chance with YOUR kid?
One common theme among kids in these programs however is, NEGLECT- a whole different type of emotional abuse.
By choosing one of the worst treatment environments in the country, that is showing extreme neglect. Instead of researching alternative treatments you are trying to 'impress the crowd' on fornits with your stunning debating skills, that is NEGLECT. Why aren't you spending your time reading about teenage psychology, finding a more effective treatment environment, or reading everything you can find on this program? Ya know, your kid IS coming home one day, and even though you think he will be 'fixed', chances are he will return to his old behaviors when out of the controlled environment.
Instead you are spending your time here trying to one-up a bunch of program survivors. Your kid isn't even out of the program and you are already singing it's praise.
That's like me doing a restaurant review before I even taste the food.
You know how they say crazy people don't know their crazy....?
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My posts are not desperate and I'm singing my SONS praises not the program. He went through, he overcame, he succeeded.
You are so bent on condemning a SPECIFIC program that you discount the achievements of some of the students. That is abuse too folks. What would you say to his face? I am sure you would spew profanity and resort to name-calling. Yea that's healthy and exactly what you claim Anchor does. Where do I sign up? You have not even been able to provide any evidence of abuse AT ANCHOR. One member of this forum claimed he was abused AT ANCHOR. 3 of them said Dennis was a good guy. In response, you say they are crazy. Why are you even on the Anchor Academy survivor forum if you did not go to Anchor? That is what I find funny.
What is even more amazing, the one person that claims abuse will not even tell the details. HEY EVERYONE..I HAVE BEEN ABUSED BUT IT IS A SECRET BECAUSE AGENT DENNIS WILL KILL ME! Come on people, I have been to Anchor; it is not the Special Forces or the NSA. The US Air Force removed all the surveillance equipment a long time ago. Do you think they have the resources to monitor these sites, hack fornits for the IP of the poster, hack the ISP, get personal information in an effort to mame, and kill each one of you? Talk about conspiracy theory.
So instead of telling me that some dead old man born in 1914, began his ministry in 1950, and adhered to a 1930's point of view, is guilty of abuse, find me the people or the evidence that Dennis McElwrath abused anyone.
There is a high probability that someone in your ancestry owned a slave in either America or some other country. That means you are a slave trader, which is illegal by the way. Cain killed Abel. So the origins of humans are murderous. You know what that means in your logic? YOU ARE A MURDERER! This will be an easy case, I have all the proof right her in my daughter?s American History book. Oh, here is another piece of evidence right here in the Jewish Torah. I?ve researched your origins and I have in my self proclaimed wisdom found you guilty as charged. So I think you should go on trial for the murder of Abel and the troubles of all the Africans forced into slavery. What time is best for you?
On 2006-01-18 09:46:00, Anonymous wrote:
", no one can succeed, and everyone is abused in these programs
Of course EVERYONE is not abused. But some are. Are you willing to take that chance with YOUR kid?
One common theme among kids in these programs however is, NEGLECT- a whole different type of emotional abuse.
By choosing one of the worst treatment environments in the country, that is showing extreme neglect. Instead of researching alternative treatments you are trying to 'impress the crowd' on fornits with your stunning debating skills, that is NEGLECT. Why aren't you spending your time reading about teenage psychology, finding a more effective treatment environment, or reading everything you can find on this program? Ya know, your kid IS coming home one day, and even though you think he will be 'fixed', chances are he will return to his old behaviors when out of the controlled environment.
Instead you are spending your time here trying to one-up a bunch of program survivors. Your kid isn't even out of the program and you are already singing it's praise.
That's like me doing a restaurant review before I even taste the food.
You know how they say crazy people don't know their crazy....? "
[ This Message was edited by: corecrash on 2006-01-18 10:28 ]
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Again you choose to spend your time justifying yourself to us. NEWS FLASH: none of this effects any of us, and very few (if any) people care. It effects you and your son only. There is obviously a reason why you are here spending day after day with these long rambling posts about nothing. It certainly seems strange to me. Good luck with your son, I hope I'm wrong.
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Do you know whom my posts affect? It affects the people that read this and their kid who has been in DH 22 times, who has been through wilderness camps, several counselors, drug rehabs and continue to run away. The parents who the courts force them to take parenting class because their kid will not go to school no matter what you do. It impacts the crying mother that lives next door to my parents who's son was found dead in a tree house from over use of whip its.
When they come here they get uneducated, unproven rhetoric from people that to this day continue to have problems and choose to blame everyone else. You know, The ones letting their kids toke it up claiming they will be ok when they won't even be able to remember how to boil an egg let alone how to pass a drug test when they try to get a decent job.
That is why I post here.
have posted in some form or another.
On 2006-01-18 10:27:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Again you choose to spend your time justifying yourself to us. NEWS FLASH: none of this effects any of us, and very few (if any) people care. It effects you and your son only. There is obviously a reason why you are here spending day after day with these long rambling posts about nothing. It certainly seems strange to me. Good luck with your son, I hope I'm wrong."
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You are not the first parent who has come here DEMANDING proof from those abused and will not be the last. You/they claim in absense of this, you must be completely right about the program and it's the survivors fault for not providing proof. Again, nothing new, many parents do this here. Who would want to debate such a sensitive topic with the likes of you? Your aggressive, close minded and interested in debating. Nobody wants to debate facts, and events that happened in their own life. You choose not to believe people, that's your choice. We all make choices, some are right and some are wrong. I hope you are right about this one, and judging by your obsessive need to post here and justify yourself, I'd say it was the wrong one.
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Do you know whom my posts affect? It affects the people that read this and their kid who has been in DH 22 times, who has been through wilderness camps, several counselors, drug rehabs and continue to run away.
Yeah, there is many evangelical programmies such as yourself. Nothing new here. So if you choose, go spend your life 'saving' teens by sending them to innapropriate treatment when real treatment is avialable and see how that works. I'm sure it will be very fulfilling. To some of us who view you from an outside, detached perspective it's quite obvious you are unsure of your decision and are simply trying to justify it to yourself. You NEED others to agree with you, hence your mission to spread the good word of HLA. It's very common in this industry. Misery loves company, eh?
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On 2006-01-18 10:39:00, corecrash wrote:
When they come here they get uneducated, unproven rhetoric from people that to this day continue to have problems and choose to blame everyone else.
No, they get the benefit of speaking to people who have been on both sides of the issue. A good many of us have been incarcerated in these places AND we have kids. Why do you insist that we've all "got problems to this day" and we "blame everyone else"? Sure, I've got problems in life, everyone does. Some of those problems are due to the abuse and neglect I endured in a warehouse, some are not. I've also got a pretty decent life in spite of what I was subjected to. That's due largely in part to finally being able to connect the dots to how the places work.
You know, The ones letting their kids toke it up claiming they will be ok when they won't even be able to remember how to boil an egg let alone how to pass a drug test when they try to get a decent job.
Yeah, that no good eldest of mine who put me through hell for a couple of years is really having a difficult time. :grin:
damn kids.....GET OFF MY LAWN!! :lol: Neither in my private life nor in my writings, have I ever made a secret of being an out-and-out unbeliever.
--Sigmund Freud, Austrian-born psychologist
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On 2006-01-18 10:18:00, corecrash wrote:
"I'm singing my SONS praises not the program. He went through, he overcame, he succeeded.
I thought you said your son was still at the program, at least it was suggested with this post of yours a couple pages back:
We just got off the phone with our son about 5 minutes ago. We told him about this forum and asked him, do you know that you can come home anytime you want without any form of consequence? He said he did know and he wanted to stay and graduate.
So how did he 'overcome' and 'succeed' already, those words make it seem like this is a done deal, and he's been home for years and is doing well. Is this the case, or was it a grammatical error and he's still there?
I'm sure many will find this post interesting.
Post URL: http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=0#135840 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=11972&forum=9&start=0#135840)
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You seem to make my posts about you. I know you don't have a drug problem etc.. but I'm not refering to you.
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He is still there, for the next 4 months. Then he comes home. I guess he's a failure and I should discount all of his success then. Are you sure you aren't an abuser yourself? Dag, I should have never told him I was proud of him last night!
I'm sure many will find this post interesting.
Post URL: http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=0#135840 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=11972&forum=9&start=0#135840)"
yea..that was very interesting. It gives so much explicit detail of of how he was abused. (sarcasm) So the father a few post after that who had his son in DH 22 times and ran away from every other court mandated service, the ones you advocate, was he not abused?
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If this boy wasn't possibly in danger, couldn't one almost feel sorry for this pitiful father who is trying so hard to justify locking his son away in this cheap, faith-based, abusive facility? Bet this father is even "proud" his son is singing in Brother Dennis's choir, and is paraded around from church-to-church so Brother Dennis can beg more money for "God's Work." Makes one want to puke, doesn't it?
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Actually, yes it does. ::puke::
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That's not an intelligent argument.
On 2006-01-18 13:34:00, Anonymous wrote:
"If this boy wasn't possibly in danger, couldn't one almost feel sorry for this pitiful father who is trying so hard to justify locking his son away in this cheap, faith-based, abusive facility? Bet this father is even "proud" his son is singing in Brother Dennis's choir, and is paraded around from church-to-church so Brother Dennis can beg more money for "God's Work." Makes one want to puke, doesn't it?"
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But its one hell of an acute observation!!! ::nod::
On 2006-01-18 13:40:00, corecrash wrote:
"That's not an intelligent argument.
On 2006-01-18 13:34:00, Anonymous wrote:
"If this boy wasn't possibly in danger, couldn't one almost feel sorry for this pitiful father who is trying so hard to justify locking his son away in this cheap, faith-based, abusive facility? Bet this father is even "proud" his son is singing in Brother Dennis's choir, and is paraded around from church-to-church so Brother Dennis can beg more money for "God's Work." Makes one want to puke, doesn't it?"
"
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You think it's accurate but it's not.
On 2006-01-18 13:41:00, Anonymous wrote:
"But its one hell of an acute observation!!! ::nod::
On 2006-01-18 13:40:00, corecrash wrote:
"That's not an intelligent argument.
On 2006-01-18 13:34:00, Anonymous wrote:
"If this boy wasn't possibly in danger, couldn't one almost feel sorry for this pitiful father who is trying so hard to justify locking his son away in this cheap, faith-based, abusive facility? Bet this father is even "proud" his son is singing in Brother Dennis's choir, and is paraded around from church-to-church so Brother Dennis can beg more money for "God's Work." Makes one want to puke, doesn't it?"
"
"
[ This Message was edited by: corecrash on 2006-01-18 13:43 ]
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On 2006-01-18 13:42:00, corecrash wrote:
"You think it's accurate but it's not.
Yes, you are correct. I believe it to be accurate.
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Or do you belive it to be acute?
On 2006-01-18 13:44:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-01-18 13:42:00, corecrash wrote:
"You think it's accurate but it's not.
Yes, you are correct. I believe it to be accurate. "
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How is that different than Americans spending millions of dollars on well known singers that profess to be drug addicts and child molesters? You suport them.
On 2006-01-18 13:41:00, Anonymous wrote:
"But its one hell of an acute observation!!! ::nod::
On 2006-01-18 13:40:00, corecrash wrote:
"That's not an intelligent argument.
On 2006-01-18 13:34:00, Anonymous wrote:
"If this boy wasn't possibly in danger, couldn't one almost feel sorry for this pitiful father who is trying so hard to justify locking his son away in this cheap, faith-based, abusive facility? Bet this father is even "proud" his son is singing in Brother Dennis's choir, and is paraded around from church-to-church so Brother Dennis can beg more money for "God's Work." Makes one want to puke, doesn't it?"
"
"
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Take what you can get "daddy," you are pitiful!
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I rest my case.
On 2006-01-18 13:50:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Take what you can get "daddy," you are pitiful!"
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You are grasping for straws, sir. No one on this forum has expressed any support of singers who might be child molesters or drug addicts. Think you have come to the end-of-the-line in any arguments supporting your "cause." Give it a f....king break, sir.
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On 2006-01-18 13:49:00, corecrash wrote:
"How is that different than Americans spending millions of dollars on well known singers that profess to be drug addicts and child molesters? You suport them.
<
Really? You know that about me from that one sentence? Wow. Kreskin is here.
I know of musicians who claim to be drug USERS. That's different from a drug ADDICT. Although I do know of a good many that probably were or are addicts. They make some of the best music around. I don't see them force-feeding mind control dogma to them.
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No one expressed it but I think its a VERY safe assumption that the majority of you listen to some form of music with people that struggle with drug addiction or abusive behaviors.
On 2006-01-18 13:54:00, Anonymous wrote:
"You are grasping for straws, sir. No one on this forum has expressed any support of singers who might be child molesters or drug addicts. Think you have come to the end-of-the-line in any arguments supporting your "cause." Give it a f....king break, sir."
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Ahh..but that is where you are wrong. It is force fed. It's in many movies, radio stations, commercials, and venues.
You just said it's some of the best music around, that tells me you support it and thus, my assumption was not wrong, so yea, I gained that from what you said.
On 2006-01-18 13:57:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-01-18 13:49:00, corecrash wrote:
"How is that different than Americans spending millions of dollars on well known singers that profess to be drug addicts and child molesters? You suport them.
<
Really? You know that about me from that one sentence? Wow. Kreskin is here.
I know of musicians who claim to be drug USERS. That's different from a drug ADDICT. Although I do know of a good many that probably were or are addicts. They make some of the best music around. I don't see them force-feeding mind control dogma to them."
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AND just what does the music one listens to have to do with YOUR SON being dumped at an abusive facility like Anchor Academy? You are in desperate need of a reality check.
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The same as me liking Choir music.
On 2006-01-18 14:03:00, Anonymous wrote:
"AND just what does the music one listens to have to do with YOUR SON being dumped at an abusive facility like Anchor Academy? You are in desperate need of a reality check."
-
On 2006-01-18 13:58:00, corecrash wrote:
"No one expressed it but I think its a VERY safe assumption that the majority of you listen to some form of music with people that struggle with drug addiction or abusive behaviors.
Are you seriously putting that forth as an argument for sending your kid away to a mindrape mill?
You're right, we should all be listening to Lawrence Welk, Perry Como and various selections of classical music.
Talk about child molesters, have a look at the Catholic Church. You looking for abusive behavior? Try Jimmy Swaggart, Pat Robertson etc. Corruption? Joel Osteen, Pat Robertson, Jimmy Swaggart etc. Take your strawman argument elsewhere, we ain't buying it.
Jesus Christ! You can't be serious with this shit! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
History gives us a kind of chart, and we dare not surrender even a small rushlight in the darkness. The hasty reformer who does not remember the past will find himself condemned to repeat it.
--John Buchan
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Don't believe for a moment that Corecrash even has a son at Anchor Academy. He's a troll. Let him talk to himself for awhile, and maybe he will go away.
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On 2006-01-18 14:05:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Don't believe for a moment that Corecrash even has a son at Anchor Academy. He's a troll. Let him talk to himself for awhile, and maybe he will go away."
:lol: No kidding! This troll lost touch with reality about 6 pages back.
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LOL, no, that is not the reason I placed him in Anchor. YOu forgot the other posts already?
Stay with me.
On 2006-01-18 13:58:00, corecrash wrote:
"No one expressed it but I think its a VERY safe assumption that the majority of you listen to some form of music with people that struggle with drug addiction or abusive behaviors.
Are you seriously putting that forth as an argument for sending your kid away to a mindrape mill?
You're right, we should all be listening to Lawrence Welk, Perry Como and various selections of classical music.
Talk about child molesters, have a look at the Catholic Church. You looking for abusive behavior? Try Jimmy Swaggart, Pat Robertson etc. Corruption? Joel Osteen, Pat Robertson, Jimmy Swaggart etc. Take your strawman argument elsewhere, we ain't buying it.
Jesus Christ! You can't be serious with this shit! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
You are right, I do not, like any of the aboved mentioned people or organizations either. Interesting that you pulled out only Christians.
Nice..here comes the profanity we talked about earlier.[ This Message was edited by: corecrash on 2006-01-18 14:13 ][ This Message was edited by: corecrash on 2006-01-18 14:14 ]
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Yea.. bring out the names when you can't prove anything..that's what you people ALWAYS DO
Yea..I love to go around making up that I put my son in a place vs having him here at home. That would make tons of sense.
It's also obvious none of you can read sarcasm.
On 2006-01-18 14:05:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Don't believe for a moment that Corecrash even has a son at Anchor Academy. He's a troll. Let him talk to himself for awhile, and maybe he will go away."
-
On 2006-01-18 14:10:00, corecrash wrote:
You are right, I do not, like any of the aboved mentioned people or organizations either. Interesting that you pulled out only Christians.
Nice..here comes the profanity we talked about earlier."
Oh, I'm sorry your poor virgin eyes. :roll: Come on! I think I've treated you with quite a bit of respect and restraint!
I could have pulled out christians or any other group. That was kinda the point. What was yours? Are you equating music with drug abuse?For the most part we inherit our opinions. We are the heirs of habits and mental customs. Our beliefs, like the fashion of our garments, depend on where we were born. We are molded and fashioned by our surroundings.
--Environment is a sculptor -- a painter.
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On 2006-01-18 13:58:00, corecrash wrote:
No one expressed it but I think its a VERY safe assumption that the majority of you listen to some form of music with people that struggle with drug addiction or abusive behaviors.
You're joking, right?...it does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate,
tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds..
--Samuel Adams
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On 2006-01-18 14:00:00, corecrash wrote:
"Ahh..but that is where you are wrong. It is force fed. It's in many movies, radio stations, commercials, and venues.
Do you not have an on/off switch on your radio and TV? Can you not change the channel? Can you not decide which movies to see and not see?
You just said it's some of the best music around, that tells me you support it and thus, my assumption was not wrong, so yea, I gained that from what you said.
<
It is. You should also look up some of the bios of some of the classical composers. If you like their music you're most likely supporting drug use if you're gonna use those standards. :roll: In all history, there is no instance of a country having benefited from prolonged warfare. Only one who knows the disastrous effects of a long war can realize the supreme importance of rapidity in bringing it to a close. It is only one who is thoroughly acquainted with the evils of war who can thoroughly understand the profitable way of carrying it on.
--Sun Tzu (author of The Art of War
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On 2006-01-18 14:12:00, corecrash wrote:
Yea..I love to go around making up that I put my son in a place vs having him here at home. That would make tons of sense.
Well, an adept troll certainly makes a lot more sense than a coder who thinks that appreciation for drug influenced music is a cause for concern. I mean, come on! How do you ever debug anything w/ logic like that? You'd have to start out assuming every line, call and phrase were in error and work backward from there.
So, ya like Bach? Beethoven?
so long as the priest, that professional negator, slanderer and poisoner of life, is regarded as a superior type of human being, there cannot be any answer to the question: What is truth?
--Freidrich Nietzsche, German philosopher
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You should know that now you are moving to my territory, I'm a musician. So no, I don't equate music with drug use but no one can deny Kurt Cobain and the others before and after him.
My point was that one of the posters attacked the Choir at anchor but of all the actions anchor could take, that would be the least abusive. The poster can make fun of a Choir for "God's Work" but will support a Musician who openly uses or is addicted to drugs. It still all boils down to not a single person having solid evidence against Dennis. Not Lester Roloff, Not some survival camp mishap, which was the camp's fault, or not against your oppressors. Was it Dennis?
I could care less if you cuss, my ears have heard worse, but again, my point is when the debate gets to a certain level the names and profanity come out. People aren't taken seriously when that happens. YOu can call me whatever you want, I've been called worse when I was in High School.
(Note: You have not called me a nsme, others have, I'm bulking you all together within one post. I have not seen you claim their methods are wrong yet).
On 2006-01-18 14:14:00, WWFSMD wrote:
"
On 2006-01-18 14:10:00, corecrash wrote:
You are right, I do not, like any of the aboved mentioned people or organizations either. Interesting that you pulled out only Christians.
Nice..here comes the profanity we talked about earlier."
Oh, I'm sorry your poor virgin eyes. :roll: Come on! I think I've treated you with quite a bit of respect and restraint!
I could have pulled out christians or any other group. That was kinda the point. What was yours? Are you equating music with drug abuse?For the most part we inherit our opinions. We are the heirs of habits and mental customs. Our beliefs, like the fashion of our garments, depend on where we were born. We are molded and fashioned by our surroundings.
--Environment is a sculptor -- a painter.
"
-
On 2006-01-18 14:48:00, corecrash wrote:
"You should know that now you are moving to my territory, I'm a musician.
Yeah, yeah...so's my husband. With three Emmys to his name. Big deal.
(Note: You have not called me a nsme, others have, I'm bulking you all together within one post. I have not seen you claim their methods are wrong yet).
Yeah, you are lumping us all together. Don't do that.
I don't know if their "methods" are right or wrong (don't even really think they have a "method", think they're just stating how they feel). I know they're completely justified in their anger. I was just as angry for quite a while after I first began researching where all this shit came from. You may not like it, but again, you don't have to read it. You can choose to read and respond to whomever you choose.We ought to be grateful that our government monopoly schools are such a failure. If today's 18 year olds could do arithmetic, they'd be out buying enough rope to hang everybody over 40.
--Alan Handleman on Social Security
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It's not a cause for concern. If it was, I'd need to attend Ancho because I don't have a collection of Choir music.
Just because I don't listen to Choir music doesn't mean I'll bash it. It's probably one of the more positive things Anchor does and it was used for cause to shut them down and execute Dennis?
Do you really care what I like to listen to? Troll music I would presume, that is if Jason Bieler, Butch Walker, and Mitch Allan are trolls.
Not a coder, hey..but close. Good guess.
On 2006-01-18 14:42:00, Antigen wrote:
"
On 2006-01-18 14:12:00, corecrash wrote:
Yea..I love to go around making up that I put my son in a place vs having him here at home. That would make tons of sense.
Well, an adept troll certainly makes a lot more sense than a coder who thinks that appreciation for drug influenced music is a cause for concern. I mean, come on! How do you ever debug anything w/ logic like that? You'd have to start out assuming every line, call and phrase were in error and work backward from there.
So, ya like Bach? Beethoven?
so long as the priest, that professional negator, slanderer and poisoner of life, is regarded as a superior type of human being, there cannot be any answer to the question: What is truth?
--Freidrich Nietzsche, German philosopher
"
[ This Message was edited by: corecrash on 2006-01-18 15:01 ]
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It's got nothing to do with the particular brand of high holy cause for which the particular zealots do what they do. I have nothing against Muslims. In fact, those I've come to know I tend to really respect. But I take issue w/ throwing bomb laden virgins at anyone for any reason.
Same thing. The people who run Anchor are absolutely NOTORIOUS for cruelty to their charges in the name of some God (who bears no resemblance whatever to the one I learned about as a kid) And they're always grabbing the priest and crying sanctuary. Anyone who's ever known a good and compassionate believer might be rankled by that.
You have to expect people to be angry about child abuse. And people do get frustrated and run out of words and such when folks like you cling so tenatiously to your ignorance you don't even see your kid being broken down. Especially those of us who had it happen to us in the name of the drug war or fear of devil music or what have you.
The cultural hunger for a substance that lets you hold affordable conversations with God, watch walls melt, breathe colors, and explore your psyche remains unsated.
--Ryan Grim for Slate, April 1, 2004
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And just tell us again WISE ONE, just why was it that you could not keep your son at home with you and NOT send him to an abusive facility? You seem to have ALL the answers. Why couldn't you parent your own son, huh?
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But we keep coming back to that. You keep saying things like "The people who run Anchor are absolutely NOTORIOUS for . . .". So is it the people of Anchor or the people who you were exposed to?
I've read the entire forum and have not seen one single piece of information that tells me of anyone from Anchor abusing a child. I read from survivors that the Mills did, I read that Dennis left MT. Park because of it. I read that Dennis is a good guy in one survirors opinion. I heard from the Havre Sherrif that the boys are not abused. Same with the Mayor of Havre. so with that, you expect me to condem one man and advocate locking him up for the actions of others when my son SEEMS to be happier than he ever has been since 12 years old? Explain to me how I can even present that to my mind. I'm really trying to do that but it's not working.
On 2006-01-18 15:01:00, Antigen wrote:
"
It's got nothing to do with the particular brand of high holy cause for which the particular zealots do what they do. I have nothing against Muslims. In fact, those I've come to know I tend to really respect. But I take issue w/ throwing bomb laden virgins at anyone for any reason.
Same thing. The people who run Anchor are absolutely NOTORIOUS for cruelty to their charges in the name of some God (who bears no resemblance whatever to the one I learned about as a kid) And they're always grabbing the priest and crying sanctuary. Anyone who's ever known a good and compassionate believer might be rankled by that.
You have to expect people to be angry about child abuse. And people do get frustrated and run out of words and such when folks like you cling so tenatiously to your ignorance you don't even see your kid being broken down. Especially those of us who had it happen to us in the name of the drug war or fear of devil music or what have you.
The cultural hunger for a substance that lets you hold affordable conversations with God, watch walls melt, breathe colors, and explore your psyche remains unsated.
--Ryan Grim for Slate, April 1, 2004
"
[ This Message was edited by: corecrash on 2006-01-18 15:13 ]
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If I could answer that I'd be rich. But of course maybe the other two teenagers, who listen to punk music, debate with me about homosexuality, safely with no condemnation, who I might add get A's and B's can answer your question.
On 2006-01-18 15:09:00, Anonymous wrote:
"And just tell us again WISE ONE, just why was it that you could not keep your son at home with you and NOT send him to an abusive facility? You seem to have ALL the answers. Why couldn't you parent your own son, huh?
"
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Yeah, yeah...so's my husband. With three Emmys to his name. Big deal.
Definitions of emmy on the Web:
an annual award by the Academy of Television Arts and Sciences for outstanding achievements in television
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
3 Emmys is a fantastic accomplishment. I'm sure the folks that remember that they aren't musicians find it a very big deal.
I sure hope your assertions about Dennis are more accurate than that.
[ This Message was edited by: corecrash on 2006-01-18 15:51 ][ This Message was edited by: corecrash on 2006-01-18 15:51 ]
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On 2006-01-17 19:23:00, corecrash wrote:
"We just got off the phone with our son about 5 minutes ago. We told him about this forum and asked him, do you know that you can come home anytime you want without any form of consequence? He said he did know and he wanted to stay and graduate. I am sure you will say that call was monitored and he was forced to say something, but I know it is not monitored because we have had conversations about him coming home before. We had conversations when he was on a staff cell phone with no possibility of monitoring.
Tonight, He was proud because he passed his algebra test. Our son has struggled with Algebra since he was first introduced to it. None of the educated professionals would lift a hand to help him, except one extraordinary teacher. He cried and pleaded not to have to take it but he finally overcame and was successful. He is excited that he is going to graduate from high school and expressed that he thought he would never make it before Anchor. Wow, the abuse and evil is so pervasive there.
I also asked him what Red Shirting was. It does not exist there any longer. He did tell me that from what he was told it was for kids that continuously break major rules like stealing and threatening.
In addition, it is interesting to know that our son informed us tonight that Eric M. is now in prison. Of course, I can hear the masses say that Anchor is bad and put Eric M. in prison because of the abuse; but it shows that Anchor is not for everyone and not everyone that the "Educated Professionals" help take advantage of the situation and come out on top.
Our son indicated that the majority of kids completely over exaggerate and we all know that is true, our son over exaggerated way before Anchor and now admits it and has come forward with what actually happened.
Nevertheless, I bet I just wasted 10 minutes of my time because you will find some illogical unproven reason why it is not a valid example. He is a Stepford kid, he has been brainwashed. Well all I can say is that I'm proud of him and I'm proud that he takes pride in his accomplishments of getting a car, yes at Anchor he is buying a car and received his drivers license about a year ago. Is that abusive?
I am proud that he finally, after many years, has beaten algebra! I can hear the sense of accomplishment in his voice! He has more to go, but I know he can do it.
And that?s all I have to say about that.
[ This Message was edited by: corecrash on 2006-01-17 19:24 ][ This Message was edited by: corecrash on 2006-01-17 19:25 ]"
Judging from your post, you seem really excited by his final triumph over algebra. Seems like a sorry reason to kid away though.
I don't get to hang out and watch each and every post (as some have accused me, but that's another story). Most of my original post to you was gallows humor. Humor.. you know "Ha ha"? I doubt even those with sexual hangups actually bring bunny slippers into the act.
Anyway, fine - so Anchor only "Redshirts" repeat offenders. Why do these kids continously break major rules? Why would the kids worthy of "Redshirting" continue to put up a fight?
Let me tell ya something - a lot of kids fight because of injustice. They act out at home because of something the parents have done, or are just not getting. But what can the kid do? Nothing. What can the parents do? Lock 'em up. If these kids get locked up for crying out because of parental abuse, negligence, or just flat out IGNORING them, then the KID gets locked up, what does that tell a kid about justice?
Pray: To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy.
--Ambrose Bierce
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Corecrash,
THIS is the stuff I'm talking about:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=20#67140 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=6964&forum=13&start=20#67140)
It's an old post, but relevant. All a parent has to do is sign their kid up, invent what they want, and whoosh - you get scooped up.
I'm sure if you look hard enough (I'm a little too busy to post the gory details tonight) - in a nutshell - my mother had me thrown into a a "Therapeutic Community" because she was pissed of that I testified against her for child abuse, then smashed her booze after I found 3 liter jugs of Carlo Rossi after I was returned to her custody a year and a half later.
Hey, I was being pro-active. She was quite a mean drunk in those days. :smile:
It's obnoxious to ask law enforcement to follow the law. That's insulting to every cop.
--John Lovell, lobbyist for the California police chief's association
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On 2006-01-18 15:49:00, corecrash wrote:
"
Yeah, yeah...so's my husband. With three Emmys to his name. Big deal.
Definitions of emmy on the Web:
an annual award by the Academy of Television Arts and Sciences for outstanding achievements in television
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
3 Emmys is a fantastic accomplishment. I'm sure the folks that remember that they aren't musicians find it a very big deal.
I sure hope your assertions about Dennis are more accurate than that.
[ This Message was edited by: corecrash on 2006-01-18 15:51 ][ This Message was edited by: corecrash on 2006-01-18 15:51 ]"
Uh huh. That's right. He's been a musician since he was about 10, made a fair living at it for quite some time and has now been awarded three Emmys for Outstanding Achievement in Live Event Audio/Sound.
Did you have a point? Since I'm treading into "your territory" now I'd like to know what it is you're trying to say.
Ya know, I've been pretty respectful of you. You've baited and given your predictions on how people will respond to you all the while being a really self-righteous, condescending, sanctimonious ass. As you seem to be so fond of saying, its not a very productive way to try and get your point across.I do not believe in the immortality of the individual, and I consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority behind it.
--Albert Einstein, German-born American physicist
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Helena,
Regarding the link to your post:
I'll never debate with you on that. A parent that drinks them self into a stupor, beats their kids, and then ships them off because they fought back is not what I'm defending and Truly, that is not the argument I brought to the table.
It is possible; however, that good parents have their kids fall in with kids that are a bad influence. YOu can't really control that. It's also possible that most of us were never given a manual on how to raise kids. Even if you do not smoke, drink, do drugs, and beat your kids, you are bound to make mistakes that a teenager could use to justify the thought that their parent is a complete idiot and do whatever they want. No one has figured out why the worst of them do what they do.
My agrument is for the parents who find themself on the edge of falling into a web of dysfunctional justice and penal systems. The parents that tried to do everything they could. My argument is also around whether Dennis McElwrath and his current staff are guilty of the crimes you accuse them of. It's clear the person you responded to had a complete different experience in a different place; However, I can't use that to measure Anchor.
I watched an episode of Forensic Files not too long ago. The story was about a girl who was close with her mother, seemed to live a nice life. She was the class president and had straight A's. One day she decided to become a crack addict and prostitue her self out. She eventually was murdered. That is tragic and I'm sure that mother to this day cannot figure out what the heck happened. That is a rare situation she was not in and out of state ran and court ordered programs but man it is sad.
On 2006-01-18 16:12:00, Helena Handbasket wrote:
"Corecrash,
THIS is the stuff I'm talking about:
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=20#67140 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=6964&forum=13&start=20#67140)
It's an old post, but relevant. All a parent has to do is sign their kid up, invent what they want, and whoosh - you get scooped up.
I'm sure if you look hard enough (I'm a little too busy to post the gory details tonight) - in a nutshell - my mother had me thrown into a a "Therapeutic Community" because she was pissed of that I testified against her for child abuse, then smashed her booze after I found 3 liter jugs of Carlo Rossi after I was returned to her custody a year and a half later.
Hey, I was being pro-active. She was quite a mean drunk in those days. :smile:
It's obnoxious to ask law enforcement to follow the law. That's insulting to every cop.
--John Lovell, lobbyist for the California police chief's association
"
[ This Message was edited by: corecrash on 2006-01-18 16:40 ]
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I didn't claim to be a world renown musician. I was a back alley, long hair, metal wanna be. None the less a musician. You read my statment as arogant but it wasn't, I'm not that good. But, to the point I was making is that I'm capable of listening, looking, and thinking about the music industry.
You say I'm self righteous, sanctimonious, and condescending but have you read your posts? Have you read the posts of all the others? (with the exception of Helena). I also will add it again, I never needed to call anyone a name or spout of profanity to amke my point. You did. [ This Message was edited by: corecrash on 2006-01-18 17:02 ]
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I watched an episode of Forensic Files not too long ago. The story was about a girl who was close with her mother, seemed to live a nice life. She was the class president and had straight A's. One day she decided to become a crack addict and prostitue her self out. She eventually was murdered. That is tragic and I'm sure that mother to this day cannot figure out what the heck happened. That is a rare situation she was not in and out of state ran and court ordered programs but man it is sad.
You sure you don't work as a program telemarketer?
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You don't find that sad? And you all call me psycho?
On 2006-01-18 16:50:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
I watched an episode of Forensic Files not too long ago. The story was about a girl who was close with her mother, seemed to live a nice life. She was the class president and had straight A's. One day she decided to become a crack addict and prostitue her self out. She eventually was murdered. That is tragic and I'm sure that mother to this day cannot figure out what the heck happened. That is a rare situation she was not in and out of state ran and court ordered programs but man it is sad.
You sure you don't work as a program telemarketer? "
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::bangin::
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I find it SAD that you think it is OK to send your son off to strangers at Anchor, rather than keep him at home and seek help for him. I find it SAD that you accept "redshirting" as an acceptable way of punishing children. I find it SAD that you are willing to wait until Brother Dennis or someone else working at Anchor severely injures a child before you "snap" and say to yourself, "hey, if this Brother Dennis guy has always worked in abusive facilities, maybe this isn't a good place to have my own kid." I think it is SAD that you are so full of yourself that you have no real concerns about this boy. No one really cares about your wanna-be-musical-career. People do care about your son. Too bad you don't!
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Judging from your post, you seem really excited by his final triumph over algebra. Seems like a sorry reason to kid away though.
I know you haven't read all the post but I didn't put my son in Anchor because of his musical tastes or his struggles with algebra. It's in the previous posts
Anyway, fine - so Anchor only "Redshirts" repeat offenders. Why do these kids continously break major rules? Why would the kids worthy of "Redshirting" continue to put up a fight?
According to my son Anchor does not Red Shirt any longer. My son also said that, even in Anchor, people make it out to be much more than it is. He explained that you have to get up an hour early, you do not get dessert, and you do not get second helpings of food but you do get your full meal. I dunno..that sounds pretty evil. (That sarcasm does not indicate that I would in anyway minmize what you went through. Yours and WWFSMD's situation sounds unjust and unneed.
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DONT WASTE YOUR TIME WITH THIS TROLL! HE DOES NOT HAVE A KID IN ANCHOR ACADEMY. ALL THIS PERSON WANTS IS ATTENTION -- DONT GIVE IT TO THEM. ::troll:: THEY DESERVE YOUR PITY NOT YOUR TIME THEY DISTRACT FROM THE MORE IMPORTANT THREADS ON THIS FORUM.
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Do you find it sad that my Son is happier than he ever has been? Do you find it sad that he has a much better self-esteem? Do you find it said that he was PAID for work at anchor and can now purchase a car and have pride in his accomplishment?
I do find it sad that you conviently skip over all of that information to make it seem that I made it about me. I didn't make it about me, you did. There are many more posts lifting my son up with pride than stupid posts about music. You find that sad? If so, then you are the abuser. You are the one that would knock him down from off his horse that he worked VERY HARD to get on.
I find it interesting that you say you are concerned for MY SON, but you call him a Stepford child? You say he's crazy because he bought in to it?
NOTE: HERE COME SARCASM..NOT SERIOUSNESS: If Roloff were alive, I'd spend my savings putting him in his school rather than put him in your care!
For the record, my son decided on his own to remove him self from my home. He kept running away. Why? Because I'm a drunk? A crack head? An abuser? I've never hit ones of my kids, ever. It's because he was expected to get C's, smoke outside, not do drugs, and respect his mother and his teachers. Sounds pretty abusvie doesn't it. (SARCASM).
On 2006-01-18 17:44:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I find it SAD that you think it is OK to send your son off to strangers at Anchor, rather than keep him at home and seek help for him. I find it SAD that you accept "redshirting" as an acceptable way of punishing children. I find it SAD that you are willing to wait until Brother Dennis or someone else working at Anchor severely injures a child before you "snap" and say to yourself, "hey, if this Brother Dennis guy has always worked in abusive facilities, maybe this isn't a good place to have my own kid." I think it is SAD that you are so full of yourself that you have no real concerns about this boy. No one really cares about your wanna-be-musical-career. People do care about your son. Too bad you don't!"
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LOL yea, I don't have a son in anchor. You busted me out. (SARCASM) I love spending my time here letting other parents know that you feel it's a waste of time for me to praise my son. Something all the professionals say we should do and something all of your parents seemed to have failed to do. Are you jealous?
On 2006-01-18 17:51:00, Anonymous wrote:
"DONT WASTE YOUR TIME WITH THIS TROLL! HE DOES NOT HAVE A KID IN ANCHOR ACADEMY. ALL THIS PERSON WANTS IS ATTENTION -- DONT GIVE IT TO THEM. ::troll:: THEY DESERVE YOUR PITY NOT YOUR TIME THEY DISTRACT FROM THE MORE IMPORTANT THREADS ON THIS FORUM. "
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jelous of the most pathetic parent on these boards in a while... hmm... maybe you should talk to karenindallas. :wave:
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On 2006-01-18 17:51:00, Anonymous wrote:
"DONT WASTE YOUR TIME WITH THIS TROLL! HE DOES NOT HAVE A KID IN ANCHOR ACADEMY. ALL THIS PERSON WANTS IS ATTENTION -- DONT GIVE IT TO THEM. ::troll:: THEY DESERVE YOUR PITY NOT YOUR TIME THEY DISTRACT FROM THE MORE IMPORTANT THREADS ON THIS FORUM. "
yea i thought the same thing judging by his spelling this is a teen playing parent.
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If I knew my parent was on this forum doing what your doing I would seriously lose respect for him. This is funny and entertaining, but in a very sad way.
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ITS NOT A PARENT. USE COMMON SENSE. A PARENT WOULD NOT SPEND THEIR ENTIRE DAYS AND NIGHTS ON HERE ARGUING LIKE THIS. THIS IS THE SAME TROLL WHO TAKES ALL THREADS UP TO 50 PAGES PRETENDING TO BE A PARENT AND RUNNING CIRCULAR ARGUMENTS THAT JUST DEFLECT. THEY CANT SHUT FORNITS DOWN BUT THEY CAN DISTRACT AND TRY TO MESS WITH THIS BOARD THAT WAY. DONT THINK THE PROGRAM EMPLOYEES ARENT HERE.
::troll:: ::troll::
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Let me get this straight. My very first post was very calm and just a simple praise of my son and what my experience was at Anchor. It was not condescending, it wasn't santimonous, it wasn't self righteous. Just a declaration of what I knew to be true.
Immediatly, I was called an idiot, pitiful, and whatever else the posters called me, and you call me a troll? Do you know the definition of a troll? It's one that posts ABUSIVE content in an internet forum. Imagine that, you ABUSIVE. I didn't write the definition.
Of course I'm going to call you out on what I believe to be false but it is pretty dag on comical that when anyone tries to input their experience and it's in direct conflict with your version of what the world is, you resort to name calling and vial profanity.
On 2006-01-18 17:51:00, Anonymous wrote:
"DONT WASTE YOUR TIME WITH THIS TROLL! HE DOES NOT HAVE A KID IN ANCHOR ACADEMY. ALL THIS PERSON WANTS IS ATTENTION -- DONT GIVE IT TO THEM. ::troll:: THEY DESERVE YOUR PITY NOT YOUR TIME THEY DISTRACT FROM THE MORE IMPORTANT THREADS ON THIS FORUM. "
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EVEN IF THIS IS A PARENT THEY ARENT INTERESTED IN ANYTHING BUT SPOUTING THEIR PROPOGANDA. THEY ARE A DEFACTO EMPOLOYEE AND RECRUITER LIKE ANY GOOD CULT MEMBER. THEY DONT WANT INFORMATION THEY WANT TO PREACH. LET THEM PREACH TO THEMSELVES.
PERIOD.
. <-------------------
::troll::
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Yep, I'm not a program employee. I'm a parent. Say what you will. Who is deflecting now? Give me the proof. Not up to the challenge?
On 2006-01-18 18:14:00, Anonymous wrote:
"ITS NOT A PARENT. USE COMMON SENSE. A PARENT WOULD NOT SPEND THEIR ENTIRE DAYS AND NIGHTS ON HERE ARGUING LIKE THIS. THIS IS THE SAME TROLL WHO TAKES ALL THREADS UP TO 50 PAGES PRETENDING TO BE A PARENT AND RUNNING CIRCULAR ARGUMENTS THAT JUST DEFLECT. THEY CANT SHUT FORNITS DOWN BUT THEY CAN DISTRACT AND TRY TO MESS WITH THIS BOARD THAT WAY. DONT THINK THE PROGRAM EMPLOYEES ARENT HERE.
::troll:: ::troll:: "
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Preach? When did I preach? The majority of my posts are about my sons accomplishments and asking for proof of what you say is a FACT.
On 2006-01-18 18:16:00, Anonymous wrote:
"EVEN IF THIS IS A PARENT THEY ARENT INTERESTED IN ANYTHING BUT SPOUTING THEIR PROPOGANDA. THEY ARE A DEFACTO EMPOLOYEE AND RECRUITER LIKE ANY GOOD CULT MEMBER. THEY DONT WANT INFORMATION THEY WANT TO PREACH. LET THEM PREACH TO THEMSELVES.
PERIOD.
. <-------------------
::troll:: "
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That, is the funniest thing I've read all day. Did you ever think that my work is based on the computer? Did you think maybe I work 18 hours a day and have the ability to watch the posts and type so fast that I make typo's? lol
You say I'm delusioned? You all really need to take a long hard look in the mirror. Step out of your self and re-read your posts from beginning to end.
On 2006-01-18 18:14:00, Anonymous wrote:
"ITS NOT A PARENT. USE COMMON SENSE. A PARENT WOULD NOT SPEND THEIR ENTIRE DAYS AND NIGHTS ON HERE ARGUING LIKE THIS. THIS IS THE SAME TROLL WHO TAKES ALL THREADS UP TO 50 PAGES PRETENDING TO BE A PARENT AND RUNNING CIRCULAR ARGUMENTS THAT JUST DEFLECT. THEY CANT SHUT FORNITS DOWN BUT THEY CAN DISTRACT AND TRY TO MESS WITH THIS BOARD THAT WAY. DONT THINK THE PROGRAM EMPLOYEES ARENT HERE.
::troll:: ::troll:: "
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Some say Brother Dennis truly believes this trolling is a form of free advertising. Does he really believe he can round up future "cadets" from this forum? What a laugh!
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Now if you want to use this forum for what it should be used for, to talk about your experience and how it affected you. To find support in your quest for understanding. I'm all for supporting someone when they are hurt. Giving them kind words when they need to hear it and lifting them up. But you have used this forum for an avenue to slander, and mislead other parents about one specific place that none of you have any empirical evidence about. So lets talk about your experience with the progrm you were in. Lets shut down those places and if and when it has been proven that someone else has commited a crime, then we focus on that problem, at that time.
If you can't identify with that, then you are the troll and you are the psycho and deep down you know it. You all had heated this forum up way before I got here.
On 2006-01-18 18:27:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Some say Brother Dennis truly believes this trolling is a form of free advertising. Does he really believe he can round up future "cadets" from this forum? What a laugh!"
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Bye Bye.......
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Now this is proof, and this is reason to shut down a facility.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... &forum=9&6 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=13430&forum=9&6)
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And here is an example of an intelligent person who opposes programs with evidence and facts and helps parents make an informed decision. That my friends is true compasion.
Post URL: http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=0#163956 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=13426&forum=9&start=0#163956)[ This Message was edited by: corecrash on 2006-01-18 19:13 ]
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Corecrash,
After skimming through the thread, I must ask the obvious question. Why do you post here? Are you trying to change the minds of those who speak out against Anchor Academy?
Seriously, if you son is successful and you are both happy with the program, why not just ignore this forum and go live your happy lives together? Why not just stay out of the muck?
As for me, I have never personally been involved with a program in any way. I have never met a survivor face-to-face (that I am aware of). I have no teenage children (mine is younger). I have never attended a program.
I found this forum by accident. I was looking up information on Outward Bound and ran into these programs. The more I read on the sites promoting the programs, the more alarmed I became. The red flags were everywhere, even to my untrained eye. My bullshit radar was sounding so loud I lost sleep for a few days. This reaction was from reading sites that promoted this sort of thing!
Even before finding Fornits I had decided that the only reason these programs can exist at all is for three reasons. First, teenagers have been stripped of their right to self determination. The laws that are designed to protect them work against them. This industry exists by exploiting the legal loopholes that deny teenagers some of the most basic rights that every adult takes for granted. More and more, teenagers are being infantilised and vilified (unjustly) by society at large. So this is an industry created for the sole reason of exploiting legal loopholes against young people. This industry does not and could not exist for adults simply because as adults, we would not tolerate this kind of treatment. It can only exist by exploiting a population segment that has no voice.
Second, there are parents who suffer from the illusion that they can (and should) control every facet of another human being's life. Control of this sort is an illusion, except in controlled prison-like environments.
The third reason is ignorance. The general population is in a get tough, 'spare the rod, spoil the child' mindset. This mindset dominates in spite of every mainstream psychologist and pretty much all credible research that has stated that coporal punishment and get tough approaches do more harm than good and leave lasting scars. People still fall for catchy phrases like 'three strikes...' which only serve to garner votes and fill prisons (and have no effect on crime rates). Catchy phrases are not exactly my idea of sound policy decisions.
We now live in a society where behavior is stuck between the moral righteousness of the neo-conservative right and the nanny state that will protect us from ourselves on the left. The concept of individual choice and freedom upon which the country was founded is quickly disappearing.
This alarms me. That is why I am here. Because it is my resonsibility to speak up when another's rights are being violated.
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After skimming through the thread, I must ask the obvious question. Why do you post here? Are you trying to change the minds of those who speak out against Anchor Academy?
Seriously, if you son is successful and you are both happy with the program, why not just ignore this forum and go live your happy lives together? Why not just stay out of the muck?
First, let me say that your post was very well written and has so much good content. If I may, let me tell you why I even started to post here. I rarely ever post on any forums contrary to be called a troll. .
My wife found this forum and told me to check it out. Therefore, I read the posts and thought I would give a positive outcome to the Anchor story. I was rather taken back by the barrage of name-calling and profanity that followed. I was also taken back by the lack of proof, for this particular program or its staff. I continued to post because I feel it is wrong to unjustly accuse someone without proof while the accusers label any form of success as proof of a deep seeded conspiracy.
Even before finding Fornits I had decided that the only reason these programs can exist at all is for three reasons. First, teenagers have been stripped of their right to self determination. The laws that are designed to protect them work against them. This industry exists by exploiting the legal loopholes that deny teenagers some of the most basic rights that every adult takes for granted. More and more, teenagers are being infantilised and vilified (unjustly) by society at large. So this is an industry created for the sole reason of exploiting legal loopholes against young people. This industry does not and could not exist for adults simply because as adults, we would not tolerate this kind of treatment. It can only exist by exploiting a population segment that has no voice.
I agree with much of your assertions and certainly think there are many people that are afraid of youth and find it necessary to smoother it. I am not so sure it is as bleak as you seem to think. This is what I believe.
When a child is born, they begin their journey. As they develop, they explore and learn. From day one, it is our job to keep them safe and make sure they stay within acceptable and safe bounds, which can be different for each parent as we do live in a culturally diverse world.
When the child moves to the next stage of their development, [stage for lack of a better term], the boundaries expand. They move from their play pen to the floor. From the floor to outside and eventually, they can ride their bike down the street, choose their friends, and so on.
Once the child reaches the teen years, they have ideas of right and wrong and can truly think on their own. Some are very intelligent and critical thinkers. Some teens will flirt with the edge of their known bounds just to see what happens, maybe not intentionally. Just because they are a teenager or just because they become a young adult, in my opinion, those bounds do not go away. I live within bounds still to this day and if I go outside of them continually, I'll be forced to stay inbounds. That is how our society works.
What happens then if a teenager begins to go further and further out of their bounds? As adults we loss our self-determination if we do it. Teens are people and I know teens that can think quicker, clearer, and can out wit me.
I do not advocate programs like the one in Florida that beat a kid to death. I also do not support the program that sat on a teenager while he begged for his inhaler and died from suffocation. They should be shut down and only the participants involved should be put behind bars for murder. Nevertheless, I am not going to accuse every single program based on something someone else did in another program. There are good programs and their intention is to help the LOW percentage of teens that need help. I happen to believe that Anchor is one of them because I have only positive proof and zero real negative proof. I have only the assertions of folks that have never even been to Anchor.
We need places for kids and adults for when they continually step beyond the bounds put in place by our society. If not then we have anarchy. Not to beat and murder them but to teach them what the acceptable bounds are and how to explore it. I also believe that if a parent feels that Christianity is an acceptable solution then they can teach it. The child will untimely decide whether to adhere to it. That is the beauty of salvation. It is based on freewill. If there is a heaven or a hell, you choose freely where you end up.
Second, there are parents who suffer from the illusion that they can (and should) control every facet of another human being's life. Control of this sort is an illusion, except in controlled prison-like environments.
All forms of control are illusions. That does not mean we settle for anarchy.
I think that you have an accurate picture of some of our society but again I don't think it's that bleak. I do not think everyone hates teens and wants to squash them.
I'm sorry if I misunderstood your general theme, that's what I thought I picked up on. I also do not want to give the impression I know it all. Those are my beliefs and who knows, after this experience they may change.
This alarms me. That is why I am here. Because it is my resonsibility to speak up when another's rights are being violated.
In attmpt to have this not come across as sarcasm I'd like to say that it alarms me that the staff's rights at Anchor have been violated because many here have already tried and convicted them. [ This Message was edited by: corecrash on 2006-01-18 20:17 ]
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I think I am in love!!!! Just kidding.......but I second what Atomic Ant said!
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Even before finding Fornits I had decided that the only reason these programs can exist at all is for three reasons. First, teenagers have been stripped of their right to self determination. The laws that are designed to protect them work against them. This industry exists by exploiting the legal loopholes that deny teenagers some of the most basic rights that every adult takes for granted. More and more, teenagers are being infantilised and vilified (unjustly)."
I cannot say much regarding other programs but I can say what I personally know of Anchor Academy and believe that it is a positive option for parents who have tried all the other methods of curbing destructive behaviors. I do believe that self determination is a human right, however I also believe as society believes, the right to self determination is limited. We show this in that we have consequences for actions that are made into laws. We can self determine all we want, until we violate the boundries. Kids are limited to self determine in that they must go to school, its law, they must be in by curfew etc. We as adults have limits on our ability to self determine. When a child/teen is at a point where they have taken self determination and abused this PRIVELEDGE,then they lose it. Even as a parent your children are afforded choice and self determination but you limit it to a safe range. The limit is when ones self determination is hurting themselves and others, thats when its time to step in. As a parent you cannot sit by and allow your child to abuse others and themselves. You limit their range. That is what Anchor does. Teens that are at Anchor are there for a reason. They didn't get there by one slip up. At least, from the ones I know, they exhausted the systems that are in place to help them, family, counselors, foster care parents, you name it. They have gone through the systems. They could not learn to limit their volitions. They could not self determine in a healthy productive manner. They were self destructive. Anchor teaches kids to work within limits , to self limit and be self disciplined. Unfortunately, they lost the privilege of sitting down and playing a video game at their own volition on their own pre-determined time but they gained an opportunity to endure and grow.
Think about this, if you had a kid that was getting kicked out of school all the time, wouldn't it be helpful to know that there is a school that won't kick him out but teach him. Not only teach him, but help him learn the things he might have missed along the way. The public school system gives suspensions (free vacations) to kids that act up in school, instead of lets say( just a suggestion, Saturday school). Public schools re-enforce manipulation and the right to self determine a free vacation. Public schools tag kids with an IEP and continue to pass our kids on to graduation even if they cannot read. ( I know this for fact I've worked with kids that grew up and had no idea how to read the back of a box of ricearoni for preparations, they looked at the pictures.
Achors exists for a reason to give kids their lives back and teach self determination that is healthy.
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On 2006-01-18 18:53:00, corecrash wrote:
"Now this is proof, and this is reason to shut down a facility.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... &forum=9&6 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=13430&forum=9&6)"
Yeah, that would be Brother Jeb making good on his promises. Just after he took office as Governor, he promised $100M in state funded juvenile rehabilitation. The Bush Family are extremely close nit w/ the founders of Straight, Inc. It's true, see http://thestraights.com/gop.htm (http://thestraights.com/gop.htm) And I do believe the Rolloff homes were in on lobbying W as gov of Texas to lift regulation of 'faith based' rehabs in that state. Wadaya know. Jeb is also involved w/ Gothard based Character FIRST! charter schools. Nother big surprise.
IBLP and Character Inn in Indy raised a lot of the same kind of scandal there for awhile. Wonder what ever happened with them.This I believe: That the free, exploring mind of the individual human is the most valuable thing in the world. And this I would fight for: The freedom of the mind to take any direction it wishes, undirected. And this I must fight against: Any idea, religion, or government which limits or destroys the individual.
--John Steinbeck, American novelist
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On 2006-01-18 19:12:00, corecrash wrote:
"And here is an example of an intelligent person who opposes programs with evidence and facts and helps parents make an informed decision. That my friends is true compasion.
Post URL: http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=0#163956 (http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?topic=13426&forum=9&start=0#163956)
:rofl: You sure about that?Never in the history of any nation has an education system been so on the point of disintegration and decay as the education system in this country...We know that education in this country is as bad as it can be. We know that it is old-fashioned, irrelevant, and not meaningful.
--U.S. Senator Abraham A. Ribicoff, 1970
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I cannot say much regarding other programs but I can say what I personally know of Anchor Academy and believe that it is a positive option for parents who have tried all the other methods of curbing destructive behaviors. I do believe that self determination is a human right, however I also believe as society believes, the right to self determination is limited. We show this in that we have consequences for actions that are made into laws. We can self determine all we want, until we violate the boundaries. Kids are limited to self determine in that they must go to school, its law, they must be in by curfew etc. We as adults have limits on our ability to self determine. When a child/teen is at a point where they have taken self determination and abused this PRIVILEGE,then they lose it. Even as a parent your children are afforded choice and self determination but you limit it to a safe range. The limit is when ones self determination is hurting themselves and others, thats when its time to step in. As a parent you cannot sit by and allow your child to abuse others and themselves. You limit their range. That is what Anchor does. Teens that are at Anchor are there for a reason. They didn't get there by one slip up. At least, from the ones I know, they exhausted the systems that are in place to help them, family, counselors, foster care parents, you name it. They have gone through the systems. They could not learn to limit their volitions. They could not self determine in a healthy productive manner. They were self destructive. Anchor teaches kids to work within limits , to self limit and be self disciplined. Unfortunately, they lost the privilege of sitting down and playing a video game at their own volition on their own pre-determined time but they gained an opportunity to endure and grow.
Okay, good. This is a good post and now maybe we can have a reasonable dialogue and I can learn something. I don't expect either of us to convince the other to change our opinions. I only seek to understand your view in a rational way, and hope you can mine. We seem to share the same view of the stages of a child's development and, in principle, there is nothing in your post I would disagree with.
From your posts, I suspect your son is fairly safe from any blatant abuse (here come the flames) because you seem to have open and honest communication with each other. If he were abused, he would tell you and I expect you would believe him. I will not get into arguments of what constitutes abuse here because I don't have the time or patience.
From a religious standpoint, we are very far apart. You are most certainly Christian and I am atheist. This is important, because as an atheist, I am less grounded in a clear ideology. I have great ambivalence when attempting to draw lines between the rights of the individual and rights of society. When these lines must be drawn, I prefer to favor the rights of the individual. So, from my perspective, we as a society get to make the rules based on the needs and wants of our society. They don't come from a higher power and nothing is absolute.
I can't find much material on the Internet about Anchor Academy in Havre, MT, so I am going to ask you for information.
How does Anchor "...teaches kids to work within limits , to self limit and be self disciplined?" What I am getting at is an explanation of what Anchor can do (has done) for your son that you could not do at home and that public schools don't do. I'm not talking about the obvious point that your son cannot run away as easily. I get that part. I am just looking for an outline of what the program entails. You have already been accused of having a 'brainwashed' 'Stepford kid." I want to know if this school uses the same so-called tough love approach (coercive persuasion, brainwashing) that other programs do. For me, it is this technique that makes programs so objectionable. If Anchor uses them, then I want to discuss that.
If it is not too personal, I'd like to ask about the faith part. What was your son's relationship with God prior to the program? What is it like now?
I want to explain why I ask this. When I was nine I came to the realization (in my mind anyway) that there is no God. It was traumatic. I cried myself to sleep for many nights even condemning God with, "How dare you not exist!" I know, I know. Anyway, I never again had faith. I told my grandmother about my doubts and she slapped me hard in the face. My mother was mortified and feared I would burn in hell. "Quiet," she said, "God will hear you." At twelve, my parents made me attend confirmation classes at the family church. As part of the process, I was required to write a one-thousand word essay entitled, What Jesus Means to Me. I told the Minister why I could not write this. He was understanding and said I would reach my faith in my own good time and secretly waived the requirement. I was confirmed in the church to make my Mom happy. In 7th grade I had a zealous teacher make our class repeat the Pledge of Allegiance over and over while he walked around the room listening to each of us say it. I said the whole Pledge each time falling silent only for the two words, "Under God." I was given 5 days detention. I told my Dad about this and he ordered me not to go to detention. I didn't, and nothing was ever said about it. So you see, I have had my run ins with the Christian culture of America.
The possibility that a kid like me, atheist with Christian parents, could be sent to a place like Anchor scares me. How would my views and dissent be taken at Anchor? I picture a series of escalating conflicts leading to some very harsh treatment in the name of 'reforming' such a kid. Do you think any kids are sent to Anchor with the express purpose of turning them into Christians?
This past Fall, there was an Internet buzz about a 16-year-old boy who came out as gay to his Christian Parents. They forced him into a Christian program (ex-Gay) designed to 'cure' his homosexuality. This horrified me. Should his parents have that right? This program openly espoused the same coercive-persuasion techniques that are condemned on this forum. Personally, I just don't think it was the right thing to do and I feel for the boy. I don't know what the outcome was.
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Corecrash,
I object to the whole behavior modification thing simply because I feel the subject is being manipulated into changing rather than consciously (willingly) deciding to change. I think this violates a person's right to self-determination. We posted about self-determination before, but in this context I am not referring to an individual's actions regarding limits, I am referring to the individual's thought processes. How about, "You have the right to make your son behave, but you no right to force him to like (believe in) it?" Does that make any sense? I think it does because you said...
I also believe that if a parent feels that Christianity is an acceptable solution then they can teach it. The child will untimely decide whether to adhere to it.
I think you meant to type 'ultimately.' The point is that you allow the child the choice of accepting or rejecting belief.
On that note, I would like to address the issue of brainwashing. Some posters have made the assertion that your son is a 'brainwashed Stepford kid." You have said he is not and present his independence and success as evidence. He does not behave like a zombie. Here is my take on the subject.
The word brainwashed does not describe the subject's current frame of mind, rather it describes the process used to achieve that frame of mind.
Brainwashed people do not act not like zombies and are not under the direct control of their brainwashers. They are not robots responding to the commands of their masters.
I like the term coercive persuasion better than brainwashing. It is more descriptive. To qualify as having been brainwashed, I think three criteria must be met:
1. Coercion. The subject is forced to change and does not undergo the change willingly. In programs, kids are forced into programs (taken by escorts), held against their will and forced through the process. They are coerced.
2. Persuasion. Real change takes place. Your son has radically altered his behavior (for example). The subject renounces his former self and actions and embraces his new self. The subject's world view has [been] changed.
3. The illusion of choice. The subject feels that his new world view is a result of a conscious choice. In other words, the subject is not aware he was 'brainwashed.'
Programs are good at manipulating language to achieve this illusion. I call this no-choice choices. They present the idea that the teenager's poor choices led them into the program. This is not strictly true. The parents placed the teen there. Yes, the child's behavior influenced the parents' actions, but that does not make the child responsible for the parents' actions. The parents had other choices. The child has none. Further, programs state that progress through the program is determined by the teen's choices. They can 'choose' to work the program or not. They are awarded points or privileges for compliance and punished for disobedience. Once again, this is a no-choice choice. Yes, the child can resist the program, but the program ensures this decision will result in torment severe enough that it is not a viable option. Also, the child cannot leave until they embrace the program. Thus I contend that the whole choice thing is an illusion and part of the mind control game being played.
Because the behavior changes in the teen are arrived at through manipulation and coercion, these changes are not properly internalized and are in some sense 'false.'
Once the child reaches the teen years, they have ideas of right and wrong and can truly think on their own. Some are very intelligent and critical thinkers. Some teens will flirt with the edge of their known bounds just to see what happens, maybe not intentionally. Just because they are a teenager or just because they become a young adult, in my opinion, those bounds do not go away. I live within bounds still to this day and if I go outside of them continually, I'll be forced to stay inbounds. That is how our society works.
I'd like to elaborate on this. Once the child reaches the teen years, and begin to think on their own, they also begin to challenge (question) the authority of parents and society. They question things that in their childhood were self evident truths ('because my Mom said so'). They begin to 'devalue' their parents and see them as fallible humans. They look to sources beyond the home for guidance and answers. The opinions of peers become important. In the end, most teens will come to accept a set of values very similar to those of their parents, but because these values have stood up to the test of challenges and rebuttals, the teen has internalized them and made them his own.
The short coming of coercive persuasion is that this process is not permitted. The teen in a program is not permitted this stage of challenge, rebuttal and acceptance. This is a process of free will and choice. The program does not accept dissension. Thus the values the program teaches are unchallenged. Once the teen leaves the program and is confronted with alternate and opposing views, they cannot defend their programmed views well. This is why brainwashing doesn't really work.
I suggest there are five possible outcomes for a teenager forced through a coercive persuasion program:
1. FAILURES: These kids fail the program. They successfully resist the manipulations and stubbornly refuse to work the program. They see through the curtain of loaded language and no-choice choices and will have none of it. They are pulled from the program by parents who see the same thing. They escape, they turn 18 and leave. Rarely do they graduate. This group is in the most danger of suffering the most severe abuse. As their conflicts with the program escalate, the TRUE CONVERTS will resort to increasing levels of force in an attempt to break these strong spirited 'rebels.' These kids already know what they believe in and they ain't changin'. They don't want to be saved. (These people post on Fornits).
2. SUCCESSES: These kids graduate but they are not brainwashed. They understood the need for change and accepted the program as a means to achieve that change. They are likely to make statements like, "I don't agree with all the program's methods and it was tough, but I am better for it." My objection here is that these kids likely would have either out grown their behaviors or responded well to less traumatic interventions. These kids move on with their lives and you won't find them on Fornits for very long. They don't care.
3. TRUE CONVERTS: These kids are like pendulums. They swing from one extreme (the behavior that got them into the program) and another (true believers). These kids were looking for something, anything, to give them purpose and direction in life. They found it. The program is their religion and they will defend it at all costs. Further, they become evangelical about it and insist that everyone else must be saved as well. These kids become staff members and program directors. They think in black and white terms and when they can't defend their program ideology with logic and reason, they will resort to vicious attacks, lies, and circular logic. They will never give in. They are the most likely to be abusive towards resisters. Without the program, they would be dead or in jail. The program saved their lives. On Forrnits, they are denounced as trolls. The brainwashing worked and it is this group that the programs depend on to perpetuate their existence. They are members of the cult.
4. FALSE CONVERTS: Kids who appear to be helped, but were not. This requires subcategories:
4.1 The mentally ill. The program can change their behavior, but fails to address the underlying issues causing that behavior. These kids really need qualified, professional help and not tough-love schemes. These kids may need medication. Programs actually advertise to get these kids by claiming to be a solution for ADHD, depression, bi-polar and other disorders. These kids are in real danger of being seriously harmed by a program. The recidivism rate is high because they simply cannot control their behavior. I would argue that just forcing them through a program constitutes abuse.
4.2 Fakers. These kids simply fake their way through. I suppose they could go into Group 1.
4.3 Scared Straight. These kids change their behavior due to the fear and intimidation of the program. They will do anything to get out and anything to stay out. They behave okay, but not because they want to behave. They behave because they feel they have to. Once they feel safe, look out. These kids are most likely to say that programs are a form of psychological abuse. I agree with them. Being forced to live in fear is abuse.
4.4 Situational Adaptation (Stockholm Syndrome) This is the most complex outcome. These kids buy into the program only because they need something and no alternative exists. These kids are vulnerable, probably because they have not gone through the process of establishing a strong sense of self, yet. They bought into and worked the program, but it doesn't stick. Once out, they question their experience and begin to see what happened to them in a new light. These kids may go in any direction. Their outcome is the least certain. Because of their destabilized psychology, therapy is in order.
5. DEATH: Through medical neglect, staff restraint, or suicide.
I would add that one person may overlap into more than one category. It's a complicated issue.[ This Message was edited by: AtomicAnt on 2006-01-20 03:50 ]
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From a Anchor student-
Your #2 outcome is basically me - but unlike your objection - "these kids likely would have either out grown their behaviors or responded well to less traumatic interventions" I KNOW that without a controlled environment away from the opportunities of my past I WOULD NOT HAVE GROWN OUT OF IT. And when you say "traumatic" - ????? HUH ????? - I would never call any of my experiences there traumatic (and I was on redshirt). At least no more traumatic than when I stubbed my toe this morning (before going to my "Fundie" church). Oh darn - now you have another sarcastic soul on the forum - LOL.
"These kids move on with their lives and you won't find them on Fornits for very long. They don't care." - It has been 2 years for me and I still care. I still care because the future of our nation, our world, the place where my kids (should I have any) will grow up depends on the youth of world. If I ever stopped caring life would be senseless.
BTW - why not attack the military? - They have had numerous abuse situations including the recent widely publicized death of the marine recruit. You aren't trying to shut them down too are you?
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On 2006-01-22 12:16:00, Anonymous wrote:
BTW - why not attack the military? - They have had numerous abuse situations including the recent widely publicized death of the marine recruit. You aren't trying to shut them down too are you?
Because the military pays and trains voluntary participants (employees) for the purpose of military operations. They're right up front about it and they do what they say.
The troubled parent industry, on the other hand, takes advantage of distraught parents, rooks them for all they're worth and sells them a handful of magic beans. Not ONLY that, but they do unconcienable things to these kids for all that money. It's a totally different scenareo.When dogma enters the brain, all intellectual activity ceases.
Robert Anton Wilson
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When a child/teen is at a point where they have taken self determination and abused this PRIVELEDGE,then they lose it.
Excuse me? Just where do you get off declaring things to be priviladges for some authority to dole out? Thats one of the biggest problems with america these days, nobody has read our own history books or our own constitution and forgot that all the rights not explicitly given to the government BY us, are our own!
As of late, and increasingly more so as you come closer to the present, the government has decided upon itself that everything is a priviladge it can dole out, and there are no rights, because they are the authority and we are the goverened... just like many people with complexes will go "I am the parent, you are the child" when they have no reason behind what they have to say at all.
And uh, buddy, self-determination is not a priviladge, it is a fundamental right of existance. Anyone who tries to take the right of self determination from someone else has to face the consequences... rebellion being the foremost among them.May the fleas of one thousand llamas infest your armpits
--One ticked off sysadmin
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On 2006-01-22 14:05:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
And uh, buddy, self-determination is not a priviladge, it is a fundamental right of existance. Anyone who tries to take the right of self determination from someone else has to face the consequences... rebellion being the foremost among them.
Yeah, justified rebellion if it's a government. When a private citizen does it in their own right it can be kidnapping, false imprisonment, undue influence, coercion, blackmail or any number of other dirty, but apt words. If they do it on the pretense of enforcing the law (as in "your parents gave permission for us to do this, therefore we're legally obliged to imprison you till it is done") that coule be an automatic serious federal offence, crime under color of law.
Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.
--Abraham Lincoln (1809-1865)
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One has not only a legal, but a moral responsibility to obey just laws. Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws.
- Martin Luther King, from his "Letter from Birmingham Jail"
What is this new loyalty? It is, above all, conformity. It is the uncritical and unquestioning acceptance of America as it is. It rejects inquiry into the race question or socialized medicine or public housing, regards as heinous any challenge to what is called the system of private enterprise, identifying that system with Americanism. It abandons evolution, repudiates the once popular concept of progress, and regards America as a finished product, perfect and complete. The concept of loyalty as conformity is a false one. It is narrow and restrictive, denies freedom of thought and conscience... What do men know of loyalty who make a mockery of the Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights?
Henry Steele Commager, 1947
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On 2006-01-22 12:16:00, Anonymous wrote:
"From a Anchor student-
Your #2 outcome is basically me - but unlike your objection - "these kids likely would have either out grown their behaviors or responded well to less traumatic interventions" I KNOW that without a controlled environment away from the opportunities of my past I WOULD NOT HAVE GROWN OUT OF IT.
You must own an amazing crystal ball. I've know some pretty 'out-of-control' kids that did outgrow it over time. It is not an automatic process and not easy. Basically, 'outgrowing' it means they learned some pretty tough lessons the hard way in life.
And when you say "traumatic" - ????? HUH ????? - I would never call any of my experiences there traumatic (and I was on redshirt). At least no more traumatic than when I stubbed my toe this morning (before going to my "Fundie" church). Oh darn - now you have another sarcastic soul on the forum - LOL.
I suppose if a number of people were to be shown a mutilated human corpse, some would say that it was not traumatic and others would find the experience very traumatic. Thus perhaps emotional trauma is a relative thing. Your personal reaction is noted and accepted, but does not discount the perception of others.
BTW - why not attack the military? - They have had numerous abuse situations including the recent widely publicized death of the marine recruit. You aren't trying to shut them down too are you?"
Not a valid analogy as Antigen has already pointed out. We have an all volunteer military (for now) and boot camp there is for a fixed time period that the recruit is aware of. If our nation were forcing teenagers to join the military (and they have done so in my lifetime, remember) then I would be "attacking" that practice, too.
Finally, your post doesn't speak the to the real issues I am questioning. What is your take on the rights of teenagers in society? What do think about the rights of teenagers vs the rights of parents? What is your take on my assertion that to violate the sanctity of an individual's right to freedom of thought and expression is just wrong in any context regardless of that person's age?[ This Message was edited by: AtomicAnt on 2006-01-22 19:20 ]
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And uh, buddy, self-determination is not a priviladge, it is a fundamental right of existance. Anyone who tries to take the right of self determination from someone else has to face the consequences... rebellion being the foremost among them.
But, as Corecrash pointed out, self-determination is limited by law for adults, and delinquency or status offences for minors. Adults can be incarcerated for crimes and children can lose priviledges or violating rules. I don't have a problem with that.
The form of self-determination I was defending as inviolate, was that of the mind to think whatever it wishes and for the thinker to be able to express those thoughts freely. Further, let's qualify that expression to include words, artwork, and music, but not to include acts of violence or property destruction.
While I fully accept that society must limit behavior, I cannot accept that one can subject someone to forceful mind altering experiences as a consequence of that behavior. If a drug were developed that could turn anyone into a happy and law abiding citizen by altering their brain, should society be allow to force people to take it? I would say no, not against the drug taker's will.
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Self determination is and always is a right of the individual to have, and to remove it by fucking with their mind is wrong, period.
An adult can choose to follow societies laws, or to break them, or to go about altering them or to leave that society entirely! "Society" isn't anything other than the collective of cultural norms, the influence of the influential and the power of the government. Its not a 'right' or 'wrong' thing, its 'might makes right' kind of thing.
The 'society' of Saudi Arabia says women cant go out of their house without a man, drive a car, etc... thats a 'crime' they committed and are punished for. I dont agree with that, and Im very sure you dont either. But Saudi Arabia is "soverign" because they have the power to enforce it, its a "law" becuase its on paper and people with guns (or swords) will force you to follow it, and doing what the law said you cant do is a "crime".
I think its a result of the perspective I put on things - government is just a big orginization that (well, now at least) is self-appointed to administer and govern and represent a nation, and has the power to enforce laws and rules because it has goons with guns to MAKE you. Now, sure, there are good laws, but a law good or bad is only a law because you can be made to follow it, nothing more.
Im not disagreeing with you, AA, Im just not buying into the "follow the law because its a law" or divine right of authority schtick I hear alllllll the damn time. Not that you do, but when you say "Adults can be incarcerated for crimes and children can lose priviledges or violating rules. I don't have a problem with that.", who determines what is a crime, and what is a rule, or not? Whoever has the power (or appointed by someone who has power to make decisions about that for them) and through that power send people with weapons to force compliance.
And suffering is not a badge of honor. Experiencing tyranny does not deserve a bow or a kiss. The honor is in removing the stumbling stone. The honor is in the impolite destruction of tyranny through honest, powerful dialogue - not etiquette. Not political correctness.
Maximus
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Many Cult leaders think they were/are doing good things, teaching their followers his/her understanding of God and how to best serve God. Often it is called The True way
PS-all the anons are not the same here, some of Pastor's responses have made me think he doesn't realize this. "
This made me think of Charles Manson for some reason..o.0
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This whole (looooong) thread seems to be a lot of people going back and forth.
I think both sides have a point, but the best thing to do is to research these places and visit them before entering your kid into one..
I'm sure there are a lot of parents who go to these places for all of 5 minutes and dump their kids in and probably ones who don't even see the place.
I myself was put into a program by my social worker (he had taken custody from my mother and entered me there), however I was lucky and was not abused.
If I had been abused at that place, I honestly don't think I would have made it. I would have killed myself at some point, during or after the fact.
Anyways, what I'm getting at is these places can have a profound effect on someone. The place I went to wasn't abusive, but there are still some things that linger there (and I also look back in utter hatred of that place) and no parent should send their kid there lightly.
I think serious research and thinking needs to happen before one sends their child someplace. I also think the child themself should be spoken to.
-Edit-
Also, alternative treatment is probably a better option. These types of places seem like the last resort. The place you have to send your kid if they are going to murder someone the next day or something.
A parent being understanding and loving can make *all* the difference and I know that first hand.
Also, having others to talk to is helpful as well, such as a psychiatrist or even just a counsellor of some kind.
-Edit-
Even if a kid is out of control, they still have an opinion and they are *STILL A HUMAN BEING*. Regardless if they follow the norms of society and/or laws, they still deserve to be treated like a human being, but parents seem to not realize this.
I can't count how many times I've seen/heard of parents treating their kids like inferior beings, toys or just dirt. There are many children who are treated very well by their parents and they are definitely examples to be followed, but sadly it isn't that common.
I personally was never treated with much respect by adults so of course I rebelled and whatnot. If you were treated like crap by everyone around you (especially those with authority), wouldn't you have a hard time following their rules and expectations?
Anyways, I don't think anyone is trying to jump on Anchor and say "They are abusive" without any solid proof. I think all they are saying is that yes, there are some red flags here and this place is potentially dangerous.
No, it's not fair to condemn a place without proof, but there is no proof as to it being *safe*. If you don't know what really goes on behind those walls, should you really put your kid in there? Is risking your child's life really worth it?
If it were to surface that this place was not abusive and was a model that all others should follow, I'm sure people around here would feel better about it.
But as it stands there is no proof *either way*, and since there is no proof as to it being safe, nobody wants to even think of risking it.
Also on the topic of your religion pastor, I don't believe anyone is trying to attack you on it. I think they are just trying to point out that a lot of these places use religion as a sort of "disguise". They say "we do god's bidding" to make parents feel at ease, but what really happens there can't be anything but the devil's business.
However, I will agree that many are too quick to jump on religious people. While yes, there are many fanatics out there who will use religion as an excuse for all kinds of horrible things, there are lots of people who *don't* do that.
There are many people who won't force their beliefs on others and focus on the positive aspects of the bible (love, understanding, forgiveness, etc) and not the negative (which many seem to misunderstand anyways).[ This Message was edited by: Cidsa on 2006-01-23 12:51 ]
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m not disagreeing with you, AA, Im just not buying into the "follow the law because its a law" or divine right of authority schtick I hear alllllll the damn time. Not that you do, but when you say "Adults can be incarcerated for crimes and children can lose priviledges or violating rules. I don't have a problem with that.", who determines what is a crime, and what is a rule, or not? Whoever has the power (or appointed by someone who has power to make decisions about that for them) and through that power send people with weapons to force compliance.
Hopefully our democratic process determines what a crime is. And, it just seems that parents do have to limit a child's behavior for safety. I am a parent and discovered that through experience.
Now to address the philosophy. Have you ever read Max Stirner. I suggest going to Wikipedia and reading their article about him.
My personal philosophy is in line with what you are saying. As an atheist is it easy to draw the conclusion that there is no such thing as right or wrong, good or evil. These are only ideas made up by humans that have no reality in the external universe. It is also easy to draw the conclusion that there is no such thing as 'legitimate authority,' there are only different kinds of power. After all, where does 'authority' come from if not God? Anything one places over the Ego becomes a higher power, but without God that higher power is arbitrary. As for democracy, a slave to the majority is still a slave. What gives any person or group of people the right to tell another person or group what they can or cannot do? Extending that, you can conclude that rights are really only privileges that people in power allow those under that power to have. As privileges, they can be taken away (just ask the Bush Administration). This whole concept is the basis of anarchist thinking and that is why Max Stirner is often called the father of anarchy.
That said, we are human beings and if we presume we are just animals (no God) we must also realize that we are social animals. We depend upon each other for our well being and security (physical, emotional psychological). Humans are not adapted to living completely alone. Therefore, humans create societies. Throughout history, there have been egalitarian societies, but all societies have rules. Humans need some sort of rules to get along, it seems. So if we must have rules, then my rule number one is that; every human being deserves to be treated in a fair and humane way.
Programs violate my rule number one. They are neither fair nor humane.
Now how do we convince a Christian father that his son should be not be subjected to Anchor? How do we advocates of free will and self-determination go about convincing someone who believes in an absolute power, that determines what is absolutely right and wrong, that individuals should have the 'right' to dissent?
Can I do that by admitting my atheist/anarchist philosophy? Can I do that by announcing for me, my rights are those I take for myself and fuck all rules and authority?
The Anchor Dad wrote in terms that indicate for him, anarchy (as in anarchy = chaos) is not a valid option. For me, it is. But I sincerely doubt such a stance will influence anyone to remove a child from a program or convince them that programs violate a persons 'right' to self-determination. After all, did I not just say 'rights' don't exist?
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but the best thing to do is to research these places and visit them before entering your kid into one..
Unfortunately, this just isn't true. Some of the most abusive facilities offer 'tours' which are highly scripted PR events.
Visiting the facility is just ONE STEP in the long proccess of research. For parents who care, at least.
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Now how do we convince a Christian father that his son should be not be subjected to Anchor?
I'm not sure you can. This is something each individual has to make up their own mind and this guy certainly doesn't seem like he is considering any other option. Fanaticism seems an appropriate term in this thread.
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I dunno, suggest he read Gulag Archipelago? I wonder what it would cost to get and resell copies of the 74 Senate Commission Report on the Federal Role in Behavior Modification? That might help.
You see, I don't care what they profess, the methods the're using are exactly contrary to anything Jesus would advocate. Hitler would dig it, so would Stalin, Lenin and Marx would be right on board. But not Jesus, not at all. If there must be trouble, let it be in my day, that my child may have peace.
--Thomas Paine
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QUOTE: Programs violate my rule number one. They are neither fair nor humane. END QUOTE
Atomic, you make so much sense until you pull one of these astounding generalizations. I attended a program (state-run), I had a kid attend one (private), and I've worked at several. I think I have some experience here, but I never claim to know one absolute thing about programs in general. You've never even seen one, so how can you make such claims?
The program I attended was really tough, physically and mentally, but it was fair all the way, and no matter how much we squawked (and we did, feeling quite free to express our thoughts and feelings) no one could really call it inhumane.
So even one program out there that doesn't fit your generalization weakens all your other reasoning. Please! Get more information!!!!! You are too intelligent a person to swallow the whole ball of BS without more scrutiny!
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Oh really? What programs did you work at?????
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On 2006-01-24 07:39:00, Anonymous wrote:
"QUOTE: Programs violate my rule number one. They are neither fair nor humane. END QUOTE
Atomic, you make so much sense until you pull one of these astounding generalizations. I attended a program (state-run), I had a kid attend one (private), and I've worked at several. I think I have some experience here, but I never claim to know one absolute thing about programs in general. You've never even seen one, so how can you make such claims?
The program I attended was really tough, physically and mentally, but it was fair all the way, and no matter how much we squawked (and we did, feeling quite free to express our thoughts and feelings) no one could really call it inhumane.
So even one program out there that doesn't fit your generalization weakens all your other reasoning. Please! Get more information!!!!! You are too intelligent a person to swallow the whole ball of BS without more scrutiny!
"
Okay, you were sent to a state run program..........then you sent your kid to a private program..........then you worked at several, but can't claim to know one absolute thing about programs in general?
What are you a fucking moron?!!!!!
Just playing, but seriously what did you do... work in the cafeteria? No, no, no....you'd learn something about the nutrition atleast, or lack there of?!!!
Ummm........you got me! What did you do why you worked at these places? Did you work at these facilities before or after the placement of your child?
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On 2006-01-24 08:18:00, CCM girl 1989 wrote:
"
On 2006-01-24 07:39:00, Anonymous wrote:
"QUOTE: Programs violate my rule number one. They are neither fair nor humane. END QUOTE
Atomic, you make so much sense until you pull one of these astounding generalizations. I attended a program (state-run), I had a kid attend one (private), and I've worked at several. I think I have some experience here, but I never claim to know one absolute thing about programs in general. You've never even seen one, so how can you make such claims?
The program I attended was really tough, physically and mentally, but it was fair all the way, and no matter how much we squawked (and we did, feeling quite free to express our thoughts and feelings) no one could really call it inhumane.
So even one program out there that doesn't fit your generalization weakens all your other reasoning. Please! Get more information!!!!! You are too intelligent a person to swallow the whole ball of BS without more scrutiny!
"
Okay, you were sent to a state run program..........then you sent your kid to a private program..........then you worked at several, but can't claim to know one absolute thing about programs in general?
What are you a fucking moron?!!!!!
Just playing, but seriously what did you do... work in the cafeteria? No, no, no....you'd learn something about the nutrition atleast, or lack there of?!!!
Ummm........you got me! What did you do why you worked at these places? Did you work at these facilities before or after the placement of your child?"
The point is that I know about the programs in my experience; unlike you, I don't surmise things about the ones of which I have no experience. I know enough to know there are vast differences, even among those ostensibly run by the same people.
For example, in all the programs I've experienced in one way or another, I have seen very few people--or policies, for that matter--that could be considered abusive by any stretch. Yet I would never assume that because of that, all programs are safe and healthy places.
I'm suggesting that using generalizations can set back any attempts to address authentic concerns; a generalization such as the one Atomic used makes it impossible for anyone who has a different experience to really believe the remainder of that person's assertions. It creates a wrong premise.
I'm not nit-picking here, or playing word games. I care about the truth, which, in my experience, is that some programs are doing great work, and others need to improve or go away.
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I care about the truth, which, in my experience, is that some programs are doing great work, and others need to improve or go away.
Why not help some people out and list the programs you consider good, and list the programs which you consider bad? Include your reasoning, and your personal story and experience with working at a program and being at a state run program. I think that would be the best way to get to the truth. As is, your post is simply designed to discredit someone else's, but really has little substance in of itself. Why not contribute to the discussion?
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On 2006-01-24 12:42:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-01-24 08:18:00, CCM girl 1989 wrote:
"
On 2006-01-24 07:39:00, Anonymous wrote:
"QUOTE: Programs violate my rule number one. They are neither fair nor humane. END QUOTE
Atomic, you make so much sense until you pull one of these astounding generalizations. I attended a program (state-run), I had a kid attend one (private), and I've worked at several. I think I have some experience here, but I never claim to know one absolute thing about programs in general. You've never even seen one, so how can you make such claims?
The program I attended was really tough, physically and mentally, but it was fair all the way, and no matter how much we squawked (and we did, feeling quite free to express our thoughts and feelings) no one could really call it inhumane.
So even one program out there that doesn't fit your generalization weakens all your other reasoning. Please! Get more information!!!!! You are too intelligent a person to swallow the whole ball of BS without more scrutiny!
"
Okay, you were sent to a state run program..........then you sent your kid to a private program..........then you worked at several, but can't claim to know one absolute thing about programs in general?
What are you a fucking moron?!!!!!
Just playing, but seriously what did you do... work in the cafeteria? No, no, no....you'd learn something about the nutrition atleast, or lack there of?!!!
Ummm........you got me! What did you do why you worked at these places? Did you work at these facilities before or after the placement of your child?"
The point is that I know about the programs in my experience; unlike you, I don't surmise things about the ones of which I have no experience. I know enough to know there are vast differences, even among those ostensibly run by the same people.
For example, in all the programs I've experienced in one way or another, I have seen very few people--or policies, for that matter--that could be considered abusive by any stretch. Yet I would never assume that because of that, all programs are safe and healthy places.
I'm suggesting that using generalizations can set back any attempts to address authentic concerns; a generalization such as the one Atomic used makes it impossible for anyone who has a different experience to really believe the remainder of that person's assertions. It creates a wrong premise.
I'm not nit-picking here, or playing word games. I care about the truth, which, in my experience, is that some programs are doing great work, and others need to improve or go away."
Everything you have to say is as generalized, vague and anonymous as yourself.
Glittering generalizations, power words and other newspeak dont cut it.
Also, reversing the burden of proof... dosent work either, well, it doesnt if anyone who knows better is around to call you on it.
WHAT program(s) is in question, WHAT are the methods used, and WHAT is the definition of abusive YOU go by? You have answered no specifics, youre simply talking about unknowns.
The budren of proof is upon the programs to show their not abusive, ARE effective, ARE helpful, and a good, safe environment for the children in them.
Furthermore, the old, tired, canned arguement of "its not abusive, its tough" and other such nonsense is getting on my nerves and Im sure the nerves of everyone else. WHY is it that whenever someone talks of abuse, someone goes "its not abusive, its just tough".
Oh, and when you draw upon the mentalities of many, tough/suffering/hardship = character building = good, so it cant be bad, can it? :roll:
Start talking about actual, specific things, and realize where the burden of proof rests, get a name to identify yourself, or go away.The most fundamental purpose of government is defense, not empire.
--Joseph Sobran
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On 2006-01-24 14:30:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
"
On 2006-01-24 12:42:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-01-24 08:18:00, CCM girl 1989 wrote:
"
On 2006-01-24 07:39:00, Anonymous wrote:
"QUOTE: Programs violate my rule number one. They are neither fair nor humane. END QUOTE
Atomic, you make so much sense until you pull one of these astounding generalizations. I attended a program (state-run), I had a kid attend one (private), and I've worked at several. I think I have some experience here, but I never claim to know one absolute thing about programs in general. You've never even seen one, so how can you make such claims?
The program I attended was really tough, physically and mentally, but it was fair all the way, and no matter how much we squawked (and we did, feeling quite free to express our thoughts and feelings) no one could really call it inhumane.
So even one program out there that doesn't fit your generalization weakens all your other reasoning. Please! Get more information!!!!! You are too intelligent a person to swallow the whole ball of BS without more scrutiny!
"
Okay, you were sent to a state run program..........then you sent your kid to a private program..........then you worked at several, but can't claim to know one absolute thing about programs in general?
What are you a fucking moron?!!!!!
Just playing, but seriously what did you do... work in the cafeteria? No, no, no....you'd learn something about the nutrition atleast, or lack there of?!!!
Ummm........you got me! What did you do why you worked at these places? Did you work at these facilities before or after the placement of your child?"
The point is that I know about the programs in my experience; unlike you, I don't surmise things about the ones of which I have no experience. I know enough to know there are vast differences, even among those ostensibly run by the same people.
For example, in all the programs I've experienced in one way or another, I have seen very few people--or policies, for that matter--that could be considered abusive by any stretch. Yet I would never assume that because of that, all programs are safe and healthy places.
I'm suggesting that using generalizations can set back any attempts to address authentic concerns; a generalization such as the one Atomic used makes it impossible for anyone who has a different experience to really believe the remainder of that person's assertions. It creates a wrong premise.
I'm not nit-picking here, or playing word games. I care about the truth, which, in my experience, is that some programs are doing great work, and others need to improve or go away."
Everything you have to say is as generalized, vague and anonymous as yourself.
Glittering generalizations, power words and other newspeak dont cut it.
Also, reversing the burden of proof... dosent work either, well, it doesnt if anyone who knows better is around to call you on it.
WHAT program(s) is in question, WHAT are the methods used, and WHAT is the definition of abusive YOU go by? You have answered no specifics, youre simply talking about unknowns.
The budren of proof is upon the programs to show their not abusive, ARE effective, ARE helpful, and a good, safe environment for the children in them.
Furthermore, the old, tired, canned arguement of "its not abusive, its tough" and other such nonsense is getting on my nerves and Im sure the nerves of everyone else. WHY is it that whenever someone talks of abuse, someone goes "its not abusive, its just tough".
Oh, and when you draw upon the mentalities of many, tough/suffering/hardship = character building = good, so it cant be bad, can it? :roll:
Start talking about actual, specific things, and realize where the burden of proof rests, get a name to identify yourself, or go away.The most fundamental purpose of government is defense, not empire.
--Joseph Sobran
"
Ah Nils, you always come out with both barrels blazing, but you always miss . . . :razz:
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On 2006-01-24 07:39:00, Anonymous wrote:
"QUOTE: Programs violate my rule number one. They are neither fair nor humane. END QUOTE
Atomic, you make so much sense until you pull one of these astounding generalizations. I attended a program (state-run), I had a kid attend one (private), and I've worked at several. I think I have some experience here, but I never claim to know one absolute thing about programs in general. You've never even seen one, so how can you make such claims?
The program I attended was really tough, physically and mentally, but it was fair all the way, and no matter how much we squawked (and we did, feeling quite free to express our thoughts and feelings) no one could really call it inhumane.
So even one program out there that doesn't fit your generalization weakens all your other reasoning. Please! Get more information!!!!! You are too intelligent a person to swallow the whole ball of BS without more scrutiny!
"
Point taken. It is a generalization and I admit I do not know 'all' programs.
What I do know is taken from newspaper and magazine articles, TV reports, and testimonials of those who have been through programs. I have also read the programs' own websites. I have read the posts on Fornits from both sides of the fence. I have even lurked on the strugglingteens forums. I would argue that I know as much or more about these programs than some professionals that refer to them. I certainly know more than the general public. What "... more information!!!!!" should I get?
I honestly feel I have enough information to form a reasonable opinion on the specific programs covered. I do not think I am being completely unfair or ignorant if I extrapolate that the methods used in 'most' programs are similar in both the specific techniques applied and the basic approach (concept) that is used.
For the sake of clarity, the term 'Programs' in my generalization refers to any organization that uses methods of 'breaking' a person and then 'building' them up again. I believe this technique is intrinsically unfair and inhumane. I accept that others do not share my opinion. My concern is for those teenagers who share my opinion and are still forced through these programs against their will.
Is that clear enough?
I purposely avoid the word abuse in my posts. One man's spanking is another man's abuse. How long does a time out last before it is called abuse? I have given my son time-outs with the rule of one minute times his age in years. Is that abuse? I don't think so. But when I read of kids spending days, weeks, even months (admitted to by the director of the facility), in isolation, then I must insist that this is more than a time-out to calm down or for thought and reflection. This is abuse. Such treatment can only have one purpose; to break the kid's will.
But ultimately, who gets to decide where the line is drawn?
Okay, so you have been through a program, you worked at several and even sent your kid through one. Wouldn't that make you a bit biased? Just a thought. How about giving me some specific ways in which the program worked for you? Can you share a memory of a life changing moment? For the sake of discussion, I will assume that your program works/worked. What made it work?
Oh, and for the sake of full disclosure, it turns out I went through two programs. I went through a wilderness program at age 15 (more like an Outward Bound than a Brat Camp). As an adult, I attended an LGAT. I was surprised to find it listed on http://www.rickross.com (http://www.rickross.com). Of course, I could leave the LGAT at any time and I never joined the 'cult.' In my mind these don't count as programs. I was never whisked away by strangers in the middle of the night and held somewhere against my will. I was never kept from communicating with my parents for months at a time.
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On 2006-01-24 05:52:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
Now how do we convince a Christian father that his son should be not be subjected to Anchor?
I'm not sure you can. This is something each individual has to make up their own mind and this guy certainly doesn't seem like he is considering any other option. Fanaticism seems an appropriate term in this thread."
I don't think this man is a fanatic. I honestly think he is doing what he thinks is best for his child. For all I know, he is (flame on).
I don't think I can convince him to alter his course either, but maybe he can intellectually understand my perspective.
How can I make this clear? The discussion has become philosophical; at least for me.
I stand behind my assertion that no one, not the courts, not the parents, not a program, not a church, not law enforcement, not the military, nor the government, should be allowed to forcibly 'break' a person's will in an attempt to reform them. It is morally and intrinsically wrong to do so. There can be no exceptions.
It does not matter how extreme the teenager's behavior is. It does not matter how serious the adult's crime might be. It does not matter whether or not it works. It does not matter if the intent is to help the person. There is just no excuse to disregard another person's thoughts and feelings in this way.
I feel very strongly about this. I cannot fully explain it, but to date, no one has convinced me that this process is a good and just and fair thing to do.
It attacks the very core of the notion of freedom, free will, self-determination, and the right of every individual to choose their own path in life. It negates the very core concept of justice, which cannot exist without the individual's freedom to make his/her own moral choices.
God help me. I just made a statement defining an absolute value. :eek:
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Congratulations, you, in one single post, destroyed the entire judicial system. So much for innocent until proven guilty.
The last I checked the burden of proof is suppose to rest with the accuser.
On 2006-01-24 14:30:00, Nihilanthic wrote:
"
On 2006-01-24 12:42:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2006-01-24 08:18:00, CCM girl 1989 wrote:
"
On 2006-01-24 07:39:00, Anonymous wrote:
"QUOTE: Programs violate my rule number one. They are neither fair nor humane. END QUOTE
Atomic, you make so much sense until you pull one of these astounding generalizations. I attended a program (state-run), I had a kid attend one (private), and I've worked at several. I think I have some experience here, but I never claim to know one absolute thing about programs in general. You've never even seen one, so how can you make such claims?
The program I attended was really tough, physically and mentally, but it was fair all the way, and no matter how much we squawked (and we did, feeling quite free to express our thoughts and feelings) no one could really call it inhumane.
So even one program out there that doesn't fit your generalization weakens all your other reasoning. Please! Get more information!!!!! You are too intelligent a person to swallow the whole ball of BS without more scrutiny!
"
Okay, you were sent to a state run program..........then you sent your kid to a private program..........then you worked at several, but can't claim to know one absolute thing about programs in general?
What are you a fucking moron?!!!!!
Just playing, but seriously what did you do... work in the cafeteria? No, no, no....you'd learn something about the nutrition atleast, or lack there of?!!!
Ummm........you got me! What did you do why you worked at these places? Did you work at these facilities before or after the placement of your child?"
The point is that I know about the programs in my experience; unlike you, I don't surmise things about the ones of which I have no experience. I know enough to know there are vast differences, even among those ostensibly run by the same people.
For example, in all the programs I've experienced in one way or another, I have seen very few people--or policies, for that matter--that could be considered abusive by any stretch. Yet I would never assume that because of that, all programs are safe and healthy places.
I'm suggesting that using generalizations can set back any attempts to address authentic concerns; a generalization such as the one Atomic used makes it impossible for anyone who has a different experience to really believe the remainder of that person's assertions. It creates a wrong premise.
I'm not nit-picking here, or playing word games. I care about the truth, which, in my experience, is that some programs are doing great work, and others need to improve or go away."
Everything you have to say is as generalized, vague and anonymous as yourself.
Glittering generalizations, power words and other newspeak dont cut it.
Also, reversing the burden of proof... dosent work either, well, it doesnt if anyone who knows better is around to call you on it.
WHAT program(s) is in question, WHAT are the methods used, and WHAT is the definition of abusive YOU go by? You have answered no specifics, youre simply talking about unknowns.
The budren of proof is upon the programs to show their not abusive, ARE effective, ARE helpful, and a good, safe environment for the children in them.
Furthermore, the old, tired, canned arguement of "its not abusive, its tough" and other such nonsense is getting on my nerves and Im sure the nerves of everyone else. WHY is it that whenever someone talks of abuse, someone goes "its not abusive, its just tough".
Oh, and when you draw upon the mentalities of many, tough/suffering/hardship = character building = good, so it cant be bad, can it? :roll:
Start talking about actual, specific things, and realize where the burden of proof rests, get a name to identify yourself, or go away.The most fundamental purpose of government is defense, not empire.
--Joseph Sobran
"
-
Congratulations, you, in one single post, destroyed the entire judicial system. So much for innocent until proven guilty.
The last I checked the burden of proof is suppose to rest with the accuser.
If program parents believed in the judicial system, they wouldn't utilize programs that allow kidnapping their child against their will and holding them at a facility by force. For people who believe in locking up teens in private jails with no trial, judge or jury, I find that statement a tad ironic.
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The budren of proof is upon the programs to show their not abusive, ARE effective, ARE helpful, and a good, safe environment for the children in them.
Not to these program parents, Niles. They are either the most trust folks I've ever seen, or the dumbest - take your pick. They want the kids who were tortured in these facilities to prove it to them. They don't think doing proper research with an open mind is necessary, as long as the people they're making the check out to tell me what they want to hear, that's good enough for them.
As far as proving abuse, it's difficult when you are not in control of anything, including your own body. Next time I'll shove a digital camera and microphone up my ass to gather proof for you program parents. :roll:
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I have to assume that you are indicating that you were analy molested. Have you brought the perpetrater before a court system?
On 2006-02-17 06:13:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
The budren of proof is upon the programs to show their not abusive, ARE effective, ARE helpful, and a good, safe environment for the children in them.
Not to these program parents, Niles. They are either the most trust folks I've ever seen, or the dumbest - take your pick. They want the kids who were tortured in these facilities to prove it to them. They don't think doing proper research with an open mind is necessary, as long as the people they're making the check out to tell me what they want to hear, that's good enough for them.
As far as proving abuse, it's difficult when you are not in control of anything, including your own body. Next time I'll shove a digital camera and microphone up my ass to gather proof for you program parents. :roll: "
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Also, what research? I don't see anyone here providing any research results accept to say, a guy in the 50's did something, thus, all programs do the same thing. Come on, are you that ignorant?
On 2006-02-17 06:13:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
The budren of proof is upon the programs to show their not abusive, ARE effective, ARE helpful, and a good, safe environment for the children in them.
Not to these program parents, Niles. They are either the most trust folks I've ever seen, or the dumbest - take your pick. They want the kids who were tortured in these facilities to prove it to them. They don't think doing proper research with an open mind is necessary, as long as the people they're making the check out to tell me what they want to hear, that's good enough for them.
As far as proving abuse, it's difficult when you are not in control of anything, including your own body. Next time I'll shove a digital camera and microphone up my ass to gather proof for you program parents. :roll: "
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My name is Adam. I went to that boys home. The only way for your brother to get out of that home is to say that the staff members are going to sexually touch the boys. It already happend once to boy there. He was fifteen. The staff member that molsted him was Justin Dallas Petterson. He is no longer a staff member there. But, who knows other staff members could do the same thing. Call the Havre police,and tell them that your brothers well being is being is in danger. Get this info to the police, the already know that this molstation has happend there.
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yes, i have been at this school for boys. The staff there try not to have a physical contact with the students. But, the man in charge teaches the student that are brain washed to hurt the new student that come in to obey the rules. If, they dont and refuse to do anything,they can be forced or they will do anything it takes to make a student obey. Another punishment is a penut butter sandwich. This punishment can last for months, for every meal of the day. I was there for two years. So, you tell me. Does it sound bad or good.
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I know that this school is abusive, ive been there.I have seen other students who have been told to hurt other students who do not obey. A staff member who worked there molseted a fifteen year old boy. So you tell me is tough abusive or unsafe because of gay horny old men running a boys school.
QUOTE
Atomic, you make so much sense until you pull one of these astounding generalizations. I attended a program (state-run), I had a kid attend one (private), and I've worked at several. I think I have some experience here, but I never claim to know one absolute thing about programs in general. You've never even seen one, so how can you make such claims?
The program I attended was really tough, physically and mentally, but it was fair all the way, and no matter how much we squawked (and we did, feeling quite free to express our thoughts and feelings) no one could really call it inhumane.
So even one program out there that doesn't fit your generalization weakens all your other reasoning. Please! Get more information!!!!! You are too intelligent a person to swallow the whole ball of BS without more scrutiny!
"
[/quote]
Okay, you were sent to a state run program..........then you sent your kid to a private program..........then you worked at several, but can't claim to know one absolute thing about programs in general?
What are you a fucking moron?!!!!!
Just playing, but seriously what did you do... work in the cafeteria? No, no, no....you'd learn something about the nutrition atleast, or lack there of?!!!
Ummm........you got me! What did you do why you worked at these places? Did you work at these facilities before or after the placement of your child?"
[/quote]
The point is that I know about the programs in my experience; unlike you, I don't surmise things about the ones of which I have no experience. I know enough to know there are vast differences, even among those ostensibly run by the same people.
For example, in all the programs I've experienced in one way or another, I have seen very few people--or policies, for that matter--that could be considered abusive by any stretch. Yet I would never assume that because of that, all programs are safe and healthy places.
I'm suggesting that using generalizations can set back any attempts to address authentic concerns; a generalization such as the one Atomic used makes it impossible for anyone who has a different experience to really believe the remainder of that person's assertions. It creates a wrong premise.
I'm not nit-picking here, or playing word games. I care about the truth, which, in my experience, is that some programs are doing great work, and others need to improve or go away."
[/quote]
Everything you have to say is as generalized, vague and anonymous as yourself.
Glittering generalizations, power words and other newspeak dont cut it.
Also, reversing the burden of proof... dosent work either, well, it doesnt if anyone who knows better is around to call you on it.
WHAT program(s) is in question, WHAT are the methods used, and WHAT is the definition of abusive YOU go by? You have answered no specifics, youre simply talking about unknowns.
The budren of proof is upon the programs to show their not abusive, ARE effective, ARE helpful, and a good, safe environment for the children in them.
Furthermore, the old, tired, canned arguement of "its not abusive, its tough" and other such nonsense is getting on my nerves and Im sure the nerves of everyone else. WHY is it that whenever someone talks of abuse, someone goes "its not abusive, its just tough".
Oh, and when you draw upon the mentalities of many, tough/suffering/hardship = character building = good, so it cant be bad, can it? :roll:
Start talking about actual, specific things, and realize where the burden of proof rests, get a name to identify yourself, or go away.The most fundamental purpose of government is defense, not empire.
--Joseph Sobran
"
[/quote]"
[/quote]
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really dont know what this website is all about, but i can tell you this much you guys are full of it. i was a full time staff member at the anchor academy and this is not an abusive program. if you want to know more about the program you can visit our website at www.anchoracademy.tripod.com (http://www.anchoracademy.tripod.com)
but please if you dont know what you are talking about how about not talking about the anchor academy unless you visit and then talk about it.
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SORRY I FORGOT THE 1 ITS www.anchoracademy1.tripod.com (http://www.anchoracademy1.tripod.com)
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i was a full time staff member at the anchor academy and this is not an abusive program.
Translation
"Why ... I was a guard at that concentration camp.. and i can tell you it really wasn't that bad"
Why should we believe staff?!?!?! They have a vested interest in lying, especally if they were involved in abuse.
Oh.. and a defunct website hosted on tripod... wow. that just SCREAMS professional.
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What the hell?
(http://http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/9287/Necropost.gif)
Thanks for bringing this shithole back to our attention, twit.
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Bump.
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I know this comment may be too late to help your brother or a comment that will you will even receive, but I was sent to the Anchor Academy from June 2003 to June 2004. Please let me know if I can help.
[email protected]
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I don't know if it is too late for your brother, but I was at the Anchor Academy from June 2003-June 2004 let me know if I can help
[email protected]
Anybody ever heard of this program? What's it's track record (the good, bad and ugly)?
Thanks!
:smile:
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Coleman, what was Anchor Academy like for you? Can you post your experience here?
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i am a witness on how abusive the anchor academy is. i know that it is a very manipulative program for both the kids and the adults. they do use physical force and they do threaten the kids and lie to the parents.
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The address of the page is:
http://wiki.fornits.com/index.php?title=Anchor_Academy (http://http://wiki.fornits.com/index.php?title=Anchor_Academy) or http://www.secretprisonsforteens.dk/fornitswiki/index.php/Anchor_Academy (http://http://www.secretprisonsforteens.dk/fornitswiki/index.php/Anchor_Academy)
In fact I discovered that they are either expanding with a second facility or moving the faciliy. I have sat. photo of both locations linked on the page.
But.
I need to fill out the page with information. If they as other Christian facilities use corporal punishment, please state stat. Mail censorship: Please state that. Level system if any: Please state that.
If you have questions, please mail me at a secretprisonforteen address like anchor(a)secretprisonsforteens.dk
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I am a former student of the Anchor academy. I have one question to all the parents and people that think that anchor should still be around. As i was sitting down eating my disgusting peanut butter sandwhich that was mandatory ,Why did Dennis mclewrath(the owner and founder) Tell one of the preachers of a church we visited that 80% of the students that attend the academy do worse when they leave than when they first joined the academy
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Ugh, was it that funky greasy wheat bread with lumps? & all natural pbutter?