Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Seed Discussion Forum => Topic started by: tom s. on September 16, 2005, 11:08:00 PM
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Anyone here remember the seed 1970?Innocently posing as a hippie house on S.E.3'rd st.Ft.Laud. I think with a big metal peacesign sculpture on the lawn about 41/2- 5 feet in diameter-yellow and also green.I thought it was a used jean store.I went running in there february '70 and found myself in a very Billy Jack community school-like group of people around my age-15 and younger and some older,and Art in a room w/a desk,Pam,a really sweet girl about 20 who cooked for the group,and a sort of innocent seeming ambling about of all,eventually evolving into a session.Anyone remember back that far?
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I didn't come in until 76 but I think many of us here would love to hear anything you could share about the early Seed, it's origins, etc. Giant peace sign, huh? Amazing. By my time there nearly any trace of any such counter-culture trappings had disappeared.
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I came in July 73..those stories are all legend.
Welcome Tom!
Please tell us a bit about the seed back then. How formal were the "rap sessions". Punishments/rewards? Any mention of the synanon?
Anything you can remember, please tell us!
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Tom S.
I remember the house on 3rd ave. in 1970
Did Pam have long blond hair ? , she was very beautiful from what I remember. I was about 16 at that time as well time and they served free meals, which attracted a lot of the young street hippies at that time
Do you rmember Maureen, she was like a staff member, and Hap and Mavis, I remember a wedding there as well, it was very Billy Jack like, that was a great discription. People came and went as they pleased. No one tried to make me cut my hair , lots of hugging and genuine caring, it was a very special time. There was a record player up front with several of rock albums . I remember Maureen getiing down to "Mississippi Queen" by Mountain. I remember telling my friends about this cool place called the seed. Every time some one knew came in we really wanted to help them, I remember really caring about everybody back then. My friend Tom W. turned me on to the seed back then and he was only 14 at the time, we both Just walked in, and we were greeted with open arms, and of course a free meal , we used t hitch hike to the meetings from hollywood and some of the time someone would ride us home. [ This Message was edited by: rjfro22 on 2005-09-17 00:54 ]
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Marshall,
That Peace sign was also on St Rd 84.
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Where on the SR84 property was the peace sign hidden? I don't recall.
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Yes, it was very smooth and hip and gentle at first.Free meals and some music-hugs were real.Pam had dark hair and a bayou face gentle looking w/knowledge integrating a kindly attitude.he had a light speech impediment like a lisp-but not.She was actually nowhere near resembling a beautiful blond but she may have been an angel.In her wisdom and as her life unfolded she chose to leave just before all the gentleness dissolved and the caustic agents of the seeds'dictates began to crystalize.She must have seen it coming.She gave of herself freely and uncomplaining and treated everyone as a well loved family member.She was not often spoken of but I hear her clearly in my heart 35 years later and I thank her where ever she is. I remember Happy and Mavis well.Happy had a handlebar mustache,a fatherly firm but caring disposition and a sense of humor to match the occasion and his wife Mavis was a tad portly if only to hold in an amazing inner strength and an english wit that bordered on Dickens' cockney along w/the accent.Two totally unforgetable characters.I don't remember them making the move down to around S.Andrews at the little mansion which was to eventuslly house the Seeds' really growing rap sessions.I remember them recalling their arguements w/each other when they were drinking.Mavis would throw cast iron pots and pans at Happy and then they would make up of course.I remember Maureens' name well and almost the sound of her voice,but I can't visualize her.I get her confused with Renee from n.y.who had at one time a several hundred $$ per day heroin habit-which was a huge liability even by todays standards.The record player was moved w/the seed into a back room for a while along w/the albums and eventually chosen music was cited as a remembered association with past highs and I think sort of edged out of sight.Naturally they couldn't stop radio play.Never heard of synanon at the time.
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Hey Tom,
Welcome. How long did you hang around? First bldg I remember was S. Andrews. I know that our bodies were made to thrive only in pure air, and the scenes in which pure air is found.
-- John Muir
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I was somehow absorbed into being a participant.I remember being with them 6 months and then some more in '71.A bunch of us kids carried really heavy flagstones from down the street behind the seed at s. Andrews.These we placed down outside the house.As the rustic style floor became larger in area as we accumulated more of these flat stones,someone also built an overhead and presto-we had a meeting area much larger than the little cozy house we sadly left behind.At that point it appeared that the friendliness was washed away,but it existed more as an underground movement.I had appeared at the seed because I was running from my brother in law.I had to live w/my sister and him off and on because homelife was not possible peacefully.Well neither was the solution.Eventually I was placed into several other members' homes mostly to keep me apart from the flash point that would ensue from home life.Really,all I had to do was stand at the front door and an arguement would greet me-so-that was actually the basis for my mistaken entry into the orginization.The sessions at S.Andrews became heated.More staff members appeared.Charley Oats,Darlene,Rick and Linda-there's more but their names and faces don't always surface in clarity.Memory is sometimes like those magic eight-balls.You get what appears on the little window with a good shake!I remember when they got a pink toilet seat for what they would refer to as the hot seat.I think it was on a toilet.People got come down on hard.A lot of it was unnecessary.Many of us were accused of having attitudes of heavy druggies and we were entirely too young or inexperienced to know what in the world they were talking about.(Check my other post about the seed song)I was put on the hot seat because I liked someone.The girl was put on the seat because she was accused of playing games.Relationships were not allowed.But as youth flowers,so does the heart.I expect that's why so many cars that went by were accompanied by screams of "the seed sucks!!!"and so on.Those were humerous interludes spaced entirely too far apart.
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I have been trying to remember the peace sign you speak of and can't recall it for the life me. It was still there in 76, huh? Maybe I just blocked it out because it didn't fit the rest of the program. In any case, it was still a holdover from the old days of rockin' out to Mississippi Queen. Let me put it this way, if I'd walked into the Seed as an oldcomer wearing a peace sign necklace or T-shirt in 76 or 77, how do you suppose staff would have reacted? Remember, honesty is the first & most important rule. :wink:
As to the music; I think Straight did outlaw listening to specific radio stations. At the Seed, many oldcomers and graduates would criticize or condemn you if they knew you listened to rock. That's one thing I liked about moving to the guy's apartments. For some reason this condemnation was totally absent there. Nearly everyone rocked out on the weekends. I even remember listening to Jefferson Airplane's White Rabbit blaring. I don't know, but my bet is that staff eventually put a damper on that sort of thing too. It was an early version of the 'culture wars' that the right has declared of late.
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Before the seed each of my siblings and I had joined the colombia music club. We each had a huge stack of music. I had a small turntable in my room and would often just sit in there and listen to some really good music...yes and Emerson lake and palmer were two of my favorites.
When I came home, my parents told me that I needed to get rid of all "old druggie ties". I went in my room and discovered they had already done it for me for the most part..removing all my posters throwing away my clothes and replacing it with white tee shirts (pocket) and straight leg jeans and such.
But the music was saved for me. I physically had to throw all that music in the garbage. I didn't want to but knew the consequences of non compliance and was sure I would end up back on the front row if I even showed a hint of remorse. The truth is the fear of returning to someone else's locked home and increasing my "sentence" was a much bigger motivator than keeping my beloved music which represented two years of monthly choices and allowance and many hours of blissfull peacefull time alone.
so I did it, and as expected when my face and actions were explored for regret I stuffed it big time..
The seed I attended was much different than the early or the later seed. Straight, Inc. was modeled after my seed. Thanks Art!
Now, I woulnd't give you a nickel for the early or the later seed, but the Seed St Pete truly was screwed up and had a mean edge to it. Even John U acknowledged this when we spoke.
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I remember "No listening to WSHE or other druggie stations." That one carried over to the Bay area stations in the sequel.
Remember one stormy night a couple of guys snuck up behind somebody else and dumped the tarp on them? I remember the event but not the ppl involved.
When you say staff members appeared, what do you mean? Weren't they all drawn from group?We are a one party country. Half of them call themselves Democrats and the other half call themselves Republicans. All the good ideas come from the Libertarians.
--Hugh Downs
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed Chicklett `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
10/80 - 10/82
Apostate 10/82 -
Anonymity Anonymous
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Memory can be like looking through a container of ten thousand buttons.The peace sign might have made it to the 2'nd seed sight on s. Andrews to be placed in the back somewhere.It was not mentioned after an initial drown-out of all prior "hippy ways".In the very beginning of the 2'nd seed house we were allowed to sit behind or to the right of the house in the shade of an old tree which could actually shade all of the present members perhaps at that "shift".Other members did appear out of somewhere,staffers were appearing from who knows where.
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Now that is very interesting Tom.
Just where were these staffers appearing from, and who were they? Do you remember any visits from Robert Dupont during this Time?
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Boy Greg does this bring back memories. When I finally went home, my parents got rid of every "druggie" thing in my bedroom. They threw away all my albums and 8 track tapes. I had all the Beatle albums. They found all of my diaries, my poster of Kenny Rogers, that he gave me and signed, and they found my book I had cut out, clued the pages together, and used to hide my dope. I remember feeling so violated and angry. An old friend of mine had some of my albums, and gave them to me after I got out of the seed. Oh yeah right! "druggie" music is going to lead me back to dope. What the heck was Art thinking. Unfortuatly, my parents were so naive they believed every thing that they were told. What a bunch of B.S. Thanks for the memories- Not.
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I often wonder what must have gone through my mom's head when she went looking for my druggie ties. I did't have any. I had a diary that she had given me. But I never wrote much in it. I'd always tried to take up the habit, as I'd learned that all the best thinkers, authors and other accomplished and respected people had done that. But I was always scared to write anything important; anything I wouldn't want my mom to read. I think I knew from the time I was about 10 or so that, eventually, Mom would put me in the program. I knew the script, so I never dared give her anything that, in that alternate reality of hers, would constitute a warning sign or smoking-gun evidence.
She did throw out a bunch of stuff. Stole my guitar and hid it in her attic for a number of years. Lied and told me she'd given it away, then gave it back to me along w/ some old school stuff and an mi book some years later.
Still got the guitar, too, though it needs new strings and I never play it anymore.
It really puzzles me to see Marijuana connected with Narcotics - Dope and all that crap?it's a thousand times better than whiskey - it's an Assistant - a friend.
Louis Armstrong
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I don't recall a Dupont or any reps from anywhere.It seems in the time between my two seed sojourns they had absorbed a lot of new members,old staffers returned,and new ones knighted.Now I recall that Mavis Was there,so that means Happy was too.There were a few entrusted from the group to lead meetings and were possibly acting staff members.Renee was a tough n.y.B,but had an enduring sense of humor.Rick and Linda were a married staff couple of mediocre temperment.Rick was pretty funny.Linda was nice.Charley Oats appeared to be deeply sincere about learning human nature and discussing his lifes' mistakes in those terms.He was a great group leader and a tough staff member.He had a wiley way about him as though the nature of true deviousness was awash in his system and an incredibly believable infectious smile.His eyes twinkled when he did grin,but I could not pinpoint the something in myself that distrusted him.There was an indescribeable edge he had or exuded that perhaps not everyone picked up on.That feeling always made me darkly aware of his presence.He had his heart grabbed by Darlene who was just as deeply sly and a discussion leader and staffer of rank.She was tough and perhaps fair and reminded me of howdy doody-red hair-freckles-howdys'face-what can I say.I heard her and Charley got married.I even heard that they went and shot up together.I can't even imagine what that would have done to their relationship.There was a Maureen also.There was this young lady named Donna who by her good nature alone I think slid quietly into the upper echelon.We were all singing "When Irish Eyes Are Smiling"led by Art of course,and he was looking through the crowd inquisitively like someone trying to pinpoint a bacon-cheeseburger with their nose-and I realized what he was searching for.Quite a few of us caught on.It was the unmistakeable voice of an Irish Angel.My god what a voice.Art asked her if she wouldn't mind singing it for us all alone and she obliged.I gotta tell you I had goosebumps and tears!She was tall with dark hair and a very kind face and a nice disposition.I would love to hear her sing again.I believe she became a staff member,but I bet it was too strenuous or should I say her strength probably overcame the piousness necessary to continue in that mode.I draw a blank on other staffers but I know they were there.
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You know whats strange Tom?
By the time I got there in 73, to my knowledge every single one of those people were not associated with the seed anymore. I could be wrong because I spent my sentence up in St Pete, but I remember not even one of them being spoke about at all.
So it was with the Seed...in one minute and swinging at the top, out the next minute and no one even whispered your name anymore.
What a weird little closed society it was...
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Tom S.
You have a remarkable memory. Didn't Rick and Linda Get married at the seed? Maureen was also a tough girl from NY, also had a major habit, she had auburn redish hair and bad teeth, but actually very good looking, she was bout 24 at the time, she was fighting to get her baby girl back and Art helped get her baby back. She was wonderful, I really loved her. I rember Darlene and her younger brother from the early andrews ave days. I also remember the hot seat ( toilet cover)
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Thanks Tom and rjfro22 for that 'refresher'
I remember all of those people, and my impressions of them are very similar to yours. I was early Andrews, and SR 84. Just a kid, I had never met a junkie before then, to my knowledge. Tough bunch of folk! I seem to recall a toilet being used as the hot seat, I guess they got tired of lugging it out from the back room.
I liked Charlie and Darlene, sad to hear they may have returned to artificial joy. I hope they pulled out of it, if it's true.
I really enjoyed the singing too. The story you tell of Irish Eyes, and Art scanning the group really sounds familiar, but I'm not certain I was there. Was that Andrews, under the tarp?
Remember John Murphy from Boston? I used to get a kick out of the way he said part. Sounded like pot. He would throw out a question, and accept multiple responses. To each he would say, "That's pot", if they were anywhere near the topic, that is. Many of us would snicker when he did that. Giddy little pot-heads that we were.
When I became a 'born again newcomer' next time around, it was on SR84. I used to sing with 'The New Crusty Nostrals' I married one of the young ladies in that group. Lasted about 2 years, as I recall.
One day, Art took us all to his house to hear his sterio. The speakers were the largest I had seen in a home. The sound was incredible. He said the sound was very much like being onstage, in the center of a Big Band. Made a jazz fan out of me, My Wife and I are enjoying some right now.
Another time, may have been same day, prior to the home tour, he took a bunch of us to the restaurant of a local golf club for lunch. Jacaranda? Not sure. Fanciest place I had been in to that point.
Since I was a compliant client, I missed all the strip searches, escorts to the bathroom, hot seat, etc., that left so many here scarred for life.
Hey, thanks again for sharing (if I may use that word) your memories with such vivid detail!
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On 2005-09-20 09:52:00, Antigen wrote:
"I often wonder what must have gone through my mom's head when she went looking for my druggie ties. I did't have any.
She must have had old information. Most people were using zip lock bags by then
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Tom S. You sure do have a great memory. I was at the Seed on 3rd Avenue and then Andrews but only a little while on Andrews. I remember Hap and Mavis. They actually lived behind my best friend when I was a kid. On 3rd Avenue we used to listen to the sterio on breaks if you can believe it. I sure do remember Darlene and boy was I afraid of her and Lybbi. I then went back into the Seed on SR 84 where I stayed for many years. Thanks for all of the memories.
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A lot of people remember Libbi or Lybbi.She mind surfed between the psyches of many staffers apparently to stay w/Art for many years.Arts' wife was always behind him,but it appears Lib was there also.Nothing intended.I had a friend that lived behind the old seed no.1.:Larry.I lived there too on the next road for a while w/my bro in law and sister.Larry had a dad who was deaf and at that time seemed to be considered less of a person.Hard to f'n believe that crap could happen here.Larry had sniffed a bit too much something so they say.I liked the kid.We were a year apart with b'days on the same day.Art came down on his butt like a buffalo when his dad was missing some pills and I was responsible because we were into the medicine cabinet.I've felt bad for years.Larry was a good kid.They went back to Hawaii soon after.A fellow named Rick came to the newer seed on Andrews.He said"you can call me Rick,or Richard,or Nihasa or Grady, whatever you want.Art came down on him loud and hard saying this guy doesn't know who he is and that is a result of a drug orientated way of thinking.Rick and I became friends and he explained Nihasa was an Indian devil or spirit that he felt energy from.I accepted that.Art could not deal with that.Rick left, naturally.Rick and I used to practice esp tests with other members.We would line up coins on the stairs in the back and hold our fingers over the ones we though someone was thinking of.It appeared to work much of the time.The idea came from a book out of the library.Art was quite phobic about that sort of behaviour.We(me,Rick and Larry)knew we had a niche in his armor.It just bugged Art for us to play wizard with him.
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Hey, tom s ... Did you have a buddy Huck F.? :grin:
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Tell us a story about Becky.
:grin: :grin:
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I know a raft story about a cuban but thats about it :grin:
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I did not know anyone named Huck,but our cat was called Huck.He just ran off a couple months ago.I did know a Becky.She and her sister were red heads at the seed.Becky was 18 in '71 and her sister was 16 or 17.I thought they were pretty cool.There was also a tall Becky that I can barely remember,but no- wait,that was in 6'th grade-never mind.
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I remember In my 2'nd seedling incarnation in '71 I arrived to hear Art talking about this kid who brought his sister to a party where she drank the remaining punch from the punch bowl that had been laced w/thc.Problem was-those days strychnine was used in quantity-usually in acid tabs,and the majority of the poisen was at the bottom of the bowl.Art blamed the kid for not telling his sister about the t,but I don't think he would have intended her to have been poisened.God,what a guilt trip that poor boy was put through,and what a horrible ending his sister embarked on as she struggled to maintain awareness in the seed as the muscles in her face on one side began to drag down and all she would finally say was "help me,please".This is absolutely true because I knew the doctor who personally had her admitted to the hospital.The girls' parents attempted to sue the doctor,but really all he did was to get her in the doors and to a room.No one knew how to treat her.At one point he asked me what I would have done and for the first time I had to agree with Arts' technique of high doses of niacin.It's really a very sad and terrible state of events to have had to know that had happened to any innocent life.I had heard that an autopsy had shown that one side of her brain had disintegrated.There's more horror in that story than I care to remember but I can't get it out of my mind.
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Tom a sad story.
Now we can just wait ansd see how Greg or Antigen can twist this one around. They will probably start with something like... oh well... ya'all's guess is as good as mine.
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Are you playing, tom s?
A good head and good heart are always a formidable combination. But when you add to that a literate tongue or pen, then you have something very special
--Nelson Mandela
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On 2005-09-23 04:31:00, Ft. Lauderdale wrote:
"Tom a sad story.
Now we can just wait ansd see how Greg or Antigen can twist this one around. They will probably start with something like... oh well... ya'all's guess is as good as mine."
What are you talking about? There is no shortage of sad and pathetic stories about people killing themselves and others under the influence of dangerous substances.
Hell, my mother drank and smoked the whole time she was pregnant with me, and I have internal heart problems likely as the cause of it.
I wish you would just stop making a mockery of this discussion and the people in it and start responding to the issues instead of attacking the people. It would be of great benefit to the discussion. It really would. I believe when you stop this stuff you really have a lot to offer.
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This sounds a little fishy. I've never heard of THC needing strychnine as a bonding agent. I have heard of LSD needing it. Don't know if that's true or just another urban legend. Are you sure it wasn't LSD? Where would a dumb kid get isolated THC in those days anyway? I mean, now you can get dranabinol if you really really want it. But I've never seen it and only ever seen marinol in pill form once in my life. In fact, never even heard of anyone having, seeking or offering isolated THC in all my life, except every last stinking introduction at the Seed and Straight.
So I looked into the clinical effects of strychnine anyway. Shaw nuff, nothing like what you describe.
Are you really a doctor?
Don't worry about temptation--as you grow older, it starts avoiding you.
-- Old Farmer's Almanac
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A lot of times in the 70s and 80s, PCP was sold as "THC". While THC can be synthesized, it's an an expensive process, and you won't get your money back on the finished product, so no one does it. It can be extracted from plants, but the high is nothing like what is often sold as "THC", which is, more than likely, PCP.
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Are you asking is my info true as remembered?Look into Beach Hospital admission records for end '70 or '71.I think that's the hospital.If not,do a little more research.It's too horrible an occurrance to be fiction.It's quite real when you consider how much strychnine was used in the 60s and early 70s.That IS what you're asking about, is it not?
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Tom I do believe your story.
However, Beach hospital closed years ago.
Antigen mostly believes only negitive stories against the Seed automatically everything else has to be proven by her & magnum PI(boy am I dated) :grin:
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I had a friend tell me once of a drug she did once growing up near Jacksonville called "T" I believe it was powder form.. no clue what it was made up of..
She did it at the beach with some friends.. she passed out for hours and later somehow made it home.. where she passed out in a tub of mostly vinager (because she was so sun burned ).. somehow hours later made it to the bed and woke up 3 days later..
I noticed in thom's post he used the letter "t" to label the drug he was talking about.. Could it be the same stuff she told me about? because if thom meant 't' .. I have also heard stories of it. I also assumed it was pcp or sorts..Was there, in the late 70's a drug in Fla. called just "T"?
I ,imo ,don't see how any form of THC could produce effects like that..
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The powder you are describing was available in Georgia in the early-mid 70's too. People called it "T" and everyone said it was THC at the time. I bought and used loads of it. Whatever it was...it was not pcp. The tabs that were sold as THC were indeed PCP...at least they had all the effects of that drug. That pill-form pcp was the first drug I ever used besides pot. The effects of 'T' were much different. T seemed much more like a mild hallucinogen of some sort...maybe mescaline, MDA or some derivative. Effects were too short to be acid.
Tom, I don't doubt your story about the girl dying from whatever was in the punch. But I do question whether the agent was either THC (not at all likely for reasons others have stated) or strychnine poisoning. From my research, the whole (& very common) belief that lsd was cut with strychnine was indeed a sort of druggie urban legend.
Here's an article I found on the web that may expain the origin of the myth:
"Strychnine in LSD
This rumor is spread with abandon, explained variously as "strychnine is a by-product of the LSD production process" or "strychnine is used to bind the LSD to the blotter paper" or "LSD is cut with strychnine." Again, there?s little basis in truth for this one. The main argument against this rumor is that active levels of strychnine wouldn?t fit on a piece of blotter paper. There seem to be a couple of mentions of strychnine associated with LSD in the professional literature. One screening test in 1971 showed a trace amount of strychnine in a sample of LSD, but was never verified. Then, in LSD: My Problem Child, Hofmann describes one 1970 case where strychnine powder was sold as LSD, but no LSD was actually involved."
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Why thank you, Terry. But I'm off my 3 daze now. I can speak for myself.
Tom, I wondered if the story you heard at the time had much to do w/ the facts of the case. I don't doubt that the girl died somehow or that you knew the admiting physician. But a LOT of raw bs about drugs flew freely as fact in those days. Still does. But most especially at the Seed.
The THC thing especially. I never knew till this day that anyone refered to PCP as THC. I always thought it was funny (ha ha funny, not odd... sort of my own private joke) that each and every newcomer in the Seed and Straight always claimed to have used THC in addition to pot.
So anyway, I went looking for info on what strychnine does. And it is as I vaguely remember from the last time I looked it up. It just doesn't do anything like what you described. So then I wondered how a practicing medical physician could be fooled, unless maybe you've just never had reason to question it. I imagine strychnine poisoning is extremely rare these days. I don't think I've ever heard a first or second hand account.
And I wonder what you think now about what really killed that poor girl.
Come the millennium,
month 12,
in the home of greatest power,
the village idiot will come forth to
be acclaimed the leader.
--Nostradamus
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Please refer to me as Lauderdale. Thats the 2nd time you did that.
Thankyou missy.
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Now that's silly. You've already said your name publicly and so have others.
O senseless man, who cannot possibly make a worm and yet will make Gods by the dozen!
--Michel Eyqyem de Montaigne, French essayist
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On 2005-09-23 12:01:00, Anonymous wrote:
"I had a friend tell me once of a drug she did once growing up near Jacksonville called "T" I believe it was powder form.. no clue what it was made up of..
She did it at the beach with some friends.. she passed out for hours and later somehow made it home.. where she passed out in a tub of mostly vinager (because she was so sun burned ).. somehow hours later made it to the bed and woke up 3 days later..
I noticed in thom's post he used the letter "t" to label the drug he was talking about.. Could it be the same stuff she told me about? because if thom meant 't' .. I have also heard stories of it. I also assumed it was pcp or sorts..Was there, in the late 70's a drug in Fla. called just "T"?
I ,imo ,don't see how any form of THC could produce effects like that.."
Sounds like PCP to me---trust me, I know about drugs.....
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I live N.of you in Va.I was in S.Fla for a visit and/or a stay after 15 years north and the population was way too much for my family's safety.I don't know what the hell I was thinking about.Moving back out was the best thing for us.Delving into the internet was like long distance burrowing.Why the fheck would I lie about anything on this or any type of forum without proof or undisputable proof for any reason that may be able to be grasped or not like smoke from the past cannot possibly be logical in a possible dispute concerning matters of the heart.
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tom, if your not prepared to be the object of outrageous, erroneous assumptions, and unfounded character assassination, you at da wrong place
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Oh, shut up, anon.
Tom, no, I don't think you're lying. I just wonder if Art (or whoever first told the tale) may have been misinformed or, maybe, "coloring" the details just a bit for effect.
Fact is, clinical signs of strychnine don't include slack muscles anywhere, nevermind only on one side of the victim's face. That sounds more like a stroke to me.
I think we've got a very reasonable explanation for the THC thing. But, as a doctor, do you think that what you saw was consistent w/ strychnine poisoning? Eskimo: "If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?"
Priest: "No, not if you did not know."
Eskimo: "Then why did you tell me?"
--Annie Dillard, "Pilgrim at Tinker Creek"
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On 2005-09-23 17:49:00, Anonymous wrote:
"tom, if your not prepared to be the object of outrageous, erroneous assumptions, and unfounded character assassination, you at da wrong place"
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Yeah, I second that!
I don't go lookin' for trouble. I just keep a little in a box should someone come by who is.
--Bill Warbis
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God, this is really getting under my skin. What I said was nothing compared to what you early Seedlings said to my brother! And I'm fairly certain that you didn't use polite language, either.
I know, he may be a grandpa now. But he WAS my 14yo brother. Then he seemed invincible. Now, looking back, I see him very like my young kids. He was impressionable and he believed you and now just LOOK at what he's become. You stole my brother, you mother fuckers! And no amount of soft-soapin' it is ever gonna get past my bullshit detector. You did this. And Thom's just one of thousands. A good many of them had little sisters too.
They came with a Bible and their religion- stole our land, crushed our spirit... and now tell us we should be thankful to the 'Lord' for being saved.
--Chief Pontiac, American Indian Chieftain
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Antigen,
What do you mean you lost your brother?
What's wrong with him? Do you not speak to him anymore?
-
Haven't had an authentic conversation w/ him or my mother since the very early `70's.
Every man has a property in his own person.
This nobody has any right to but himself.
The labor of his body and the work of his
hands are properly his.
--John Locke
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On 2005-09-23 10:42:00, Antigen wrote:
"This sounds a little fishy. I've never heard of THC needing strychnine as a bonding agent. I have heard of LSD needing it. Don't know if that's true or just another urban legend. Are you sure it wasn't LSD? Where would a dumb kid get isolated THC in those days anyway? I mean, now you can get dranabinol if you really really want it. But I've never seen it and only ever seen marinol in pill form once in my life. In fact, never even heard of anyone having, seeking or offering isolated THC in all my life, except every last stinking introduction at the Seed and Straight.
So I looked into the clinical effects of strychnine anyway. Shaw nuff, nothing like what you describe.
Are you really a doctor?
Don't worry about temptation--as you grow older, it starts avoiding you.
-- Old Farmer's Almanac
"
Ging, I used to take that stuff. I was told it was horse tranquilizer or something. I doubt it was anywhere near pure anything, but us teeny boppers would eat whatever anyone said was cool. I was a sheep as a drug user. Huff this, try this acid, etc. I'm just glad I didn't know any junkies. I had heard that story in '71 when I was there. I must have come in the first time shortly after Tom's 2nd. I'm not a Dr., but I play one on Fornit's[ This Message was edited by: Thom on 2005-09-23 22:24 ]
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On 2005-09-23 21:23:00, Antigen wrote:
"Haven't had an authentic conversation w/ him or my mother since the very early `70's.Every man has a property in his own person.
This nobody has any right to but himself.
The labor of his body and the work of his
hands are properly his.
--John Locke
"
Authentic conversation = total acceptance of Ginger's conspiracy theories, and a willingness to disavow any loyalty to or possible benefit from The Seed. If she is so all knowing and powerful (the opposite of powerless) what need would she have to converse with mere mortals such as we? Not that I fault her for it. I think if I were God, I might feel the same way. But as a :em: I guess we won't have to worry about that happening. WHAT HAVE I BECOME????!!!
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Thom,
I was in the Seed around 70 & 71 . I returned
73 to 75 Ft Lauderdale. The Seed helped me set a foundation to work from. I nevered felt brain washed, I do believe there was a certain control the seed had on me or most of us while we were there, but seeing that my life in my own hands wasn't working, I had to turn over some trust, and I am glad I did. I can look back over thirty years of being away from the Seed and Honestly say it was one of the best things that happen to me. I also feel a strong connection with people that went thru the program. I believe we were apart of something bigger then Art and the Seed itself, there was a spirituality from the group a connection with humanity a love and concern people around us, and also a chance at an early age to aquire some life time lessons. I am sure we crossed paths back then. I also enjoy reading your posts and thanks to
you wonderful sister Ginger, we have this great forum to express our personal experiences.
-
I concur, my friend! Thanks for reminding me I'm not alone. Hanging around here long enough, a person can get brain soiled. ::cheers::
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On 2005-09-23 19:55:00, Antigen wrote:
"God, this is really getting under my skin. What I said was nothing compared to what you early Seedlings said to my brother! And I'm fairly certain that you didn't use polite language, either.
I know, he may be a grandpa now. But he WAS my 14yo brother. Then he seemed invincible. Now, looking back, I see him very like my young kids. He was impressionable and he believed you and now just LOOK at what he's become. You stole my brother, you mother fuckers! And no amount of soft-soapin' it is ever gonna get past my bullshit detector. You did this. And Thom's just one of thousands. A good many of them had little sisters too.
And on behalf of myself and the thousands of others that were helped, I am, literally, eternally grateful! Thank you
-
On 2005-09-23 20:45:00, rjfro22 wrote:
"Antigen,
What do you mean you lost your brother?
What's wrong with him? Do you not speak to him anymore?"
I found me! I'm right here! :grin:
-
Everyone BEWARE this is all a big plot REMEMBER
KOREAN MIND control.
No one order take out. I repeat on take out.
& do your own RAUNDRY. :grin:
-
On 2005-09-24 05:18:00, Ft. Lauderdale wrote:
"Everyone BEWARE this is all a big plot REMEMBER
KOREAN MIND control.
No one order take out. I repeat on take out.
& do your own RAUNDRY. ::rocker:: ::troll::
-
Antigen:
"Haven't had an authentic conversation w/ him or my mother since the very early `70's."
When and if the day comes when you realize you are not the sole proprietor of authenticity, this could change.
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Hey, what if she really turns out to be God? Then we'll all be in a heapatrouble! :scared:
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Ever the caustic asshole, eh? I'm sure you'll make a fine cult leader. You've got the stuff.
Patient memoirs are a kind of protest literature like slave narratives or witness testimonies.
G.A.Hornstein
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I am not a doctor. (but I played one once with someone who wasn't a nurse)When the brain is becoming non-functional due to drug orientated strokes,clots,decreased synaptical response,hemmoraging,or what ever it loses its' ability to oversee the automatic care it has provided all those years.The girls' left or right side also was becoming numb and paralyzed.It was a nightmare to hear about and a nightmare to remember.Besides being deathly traumatic for the girl,doctors could do nothing but watch her deteriorate.That made them feel terribly helpless in the aftermath of such a wasteful happening.Their lives were saturated with helping people and this time one could only watch as another wasted away quickly and horribly.I drive trucks for a living.I have some control in my job.I get to steer and accelerate and roll down the windows or turn on the radio.They had no choice.She had no more choices left.Her familys' only valid option was to start grieving.That and try to sue the doctor who had her admitted to the hospital as though it might bring her back.The validity of this story can only be relied on by my having told it truthfully.The man who admitted her to the hospital was my father.He cried and was in moral anguish at not being able to do something.I'd never seen him like that.That was when it was revealed to me the nature of the event and the coorboration of the story I heard at the seed.Shelly,Charley,Darlene,Libby-they were all there.I'm sure it's got a mark on their hearts also.AS far as the punch bowl being just thc,could have been a mess of acid tabs dissolved in there also.Stryctnine was used for effect and enhancement.I remember the acid in the late 60's and the numbness it produced.Times that by a hundred or so....I'm outa here
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http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/lsd/lsd_myth2.shtml (http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/lsd/lsd_myth2.shtml)
Everybody needs beauty as well as bread, places to play in and pray in, where nature may heal and give strength to body and soul alike.
-- John Muir
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I'm sorry. I must have misread. I thought you said something about having years of experience as an infectious or contagious disease doctor. Was it someone else? Anyway, I got all excited. I've spent a good deal of time in the last couple of years hanging out w/ medical professionals. And so I've learned a lot of the language and culture. Thought we might connect on that level.
Never mind. This is still worth talking about, though. . .
On 2005-09-24 15:25:00, tom s. wrote:
When the brain is becoming non-functional due to drug orientated strokes,clots,decreased synaptical response,hemmoraging,or what ever it loses its' ability to oversee the automatic care it has provided all those years.The girls' left or right side also was becoming numb and paralyzed.It was a nightmare to hear about and a nightmare to remember.
But why do you attribute this girls tragic ending to her drug use? Maybe cause your dad told it that was it? I can understand why you'd find that to be compelling. But I know a doctor who put his kid in the program. Actually, my oldest daughter owes her existance to him. I should try and find out his name so she can thank him.
Here's how that happened. I was pinned to the floor for a couple of hours when I started to get scared. The numbness in my lower body turned to pain and it started to dawn on me that I might actually be getting permanently injured.* So I lied. I started shouting out "If I miscarry, I'm gonna kill somebody!"
So they send me and the other girls back to group. Next day, they take me out of group to the little medical room in the corner. There I meet another kid's father, who was (presumably) some kind of doctor. For some damned reason, he saw fit to do a full pelvic exam in addition to the standard urin test to determin if I were pregnant. I told him I knew I wasn't, that I had just made it up to get them to quit sitting on me. Didn't phase him in the least.
Next he informs me that, due to my permiscuous sexual activity, my fallopian tubes were all scarred up and permanently blocked. I knew enough to disregard his assertion that it was due to severe infection. I had never had any sort of infection or female problems. Hadn't been anything close to easy, either. But I believed he was telling me the truth about the condition of my innards. He was, after all, a professional doctor, right?
But, more than that, he was a program believer, donating his professional services to the cause. And the cause was all about convincing us kids and each other that drugs are the biggest, worst, most frightening new threat to an entire genearation of Americans. Since that's not true, it's often necessary to make shit up. And so he did.
That's a lot of prose. But I really want you to understand what I'm asking and what I'm trying to say. I don't take it lightly that this girl died, not at all. Hell, I have teenaged daughters and older. Trust me, it's impossible to read a story like that and not shed a tear for everyone involved.
But that doesn't mean that Art &Co. are above spinning such a tragedy to serve their agenda. Not only did the girls brother suffer an unconcionable mindfuck over it, but I think maybe you have too. It's these tragic stories that justify the most untenable aspects of the Program. And they so often turn out to be embellished or even made up out of whole cloth.
* BTW, Thom, do you remember when our sister read somewhere that you could stand on someone's most tender gut w/ one foot and, if they relaxed, it wouldn't hurt or injur them? She and I demonstrated in the livingroom, which we often used as a stage for the audience at the table. Well, that came in real handy in this instance. Fat old Lisa P. sat right on my stomach for something close to an hour. Didn't even phase me. I think it freaked staff out just a bit. That made it worth it.No drug, not even alcohol, causes the fundamental ills of society. If we're looking for the sources of our troubles, we shouldn't test people for drugs, we should test them for stupidity, ignorance, greed and love of power.
P. J. O'Rourke
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No, sorry. I don't recall that.
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No other comment?
Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of tapes hurtling down the highway.
Andrew Tannenbaum
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You misspelled injure?
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Apologies to all.Maybe I was BS'ed.I cannot get the story from my mind after 34 years.I did see the newspaper article where my father was being sued (to no great help for anyone)when I was in school.Could that have been a hoax? I don't know.Art used to talk about taking great doses of niacin and how it would clean out the veins and tiny cappilaries of drug byproducts,strychnine pockets,for one.I actually believed that.Niacin DOES do just that.BUT-strychnine pockets?Very f'in doubtful.I forgot all about that.I don't really know what the story reality was.It appears to have been more of a drinking related poisoning.I have tried to check archives,but police files would probably lead the way to the answer.I do not remember following the story any furthur in 1971.How does one get into (cold case files) if in fact they had been ended and mended that long ago?
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Go to the clerk of courts and ask them to do an archive search in the civil and criminal divisions. They'll need a date range and specific terms you're looking for, such as surnames.
First management had plans and then strategic plans. Now we have vision, and we're only one small step from hallucination.
-- Ansley Throckmorton upon assuming the presidency of Bangor Theological Seminary in Bangor, Main per Information World 8-4-`97
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Tom, you have absolutely nothing to apologize about. The inverse is true.
We have all at one point or another repeated these urban myth type stories that really are at their core bullshit but somehow the story on its face is believable because it appeals to our fears or our general belief systems.
It is the others here that refuse to review their belief of the story just because it supposedly came from the o holy seed that need to think about why they adopt that attitude.
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Yeah, what he said. Sorry, dunno where my manners went. We all bought into a lot of bull in those days. And if you're buyin', you're sellin' too.
I honestly was stunned speechless over the niacin thing. I don't remember that from back then. But I do know of one other cult that recomends large doses of niacin for purification.
http://www.femalefirst.co.uk/celebrity/52392004.htm (http://www.femalefirst.co.uk/celebrity/52392004.htm)
Then I remembered that Art received some sort of award or something from a Mason's lodge in Clearwater after the Seed shut down.
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shel ... cs-08.html (http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shelf/xenu/scs-08.html)
Sort of `splains a lot, don't it?
When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one.
--Benjamin Franklin, American Founding Father, author, and inventor
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed Chicklett `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
10/80 - 10/82
Apostate 10/82 -
Anonymity Anonymous
-
Ginger, I think they may have been another Art Barker, the one that got the award in clearwater. Not sure, but when that first appeared I searched the name and sure enough, an Art barker that lived in clearwater showed up.
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http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shel ... cs-08.html (http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shelf/xenu/scs-08.html)
Sort of `splains a lot, don't it?
Yes it does. The methodology of the Seed had many things in common with scientology. One difference..scientology is/was much less coercive. But the us/them mentality, the exclusivity, the special powers, the one and only way to becoming straight, all that bull is in there.
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"Scientology fanatically avoids any independent review or evaluation of its actions."
--------
Hmmm. Sounds familiar.
--------
"The coercion which accomplishes this defeat of "street smarts" may not be obvious. It would be a pretty ineffective group that had to control its members through blatant coercion. It is much more efficient to create a milieu in which the members indoctrinate and control themselves, and convince each other that it was all their own free choice and decision."
-------
Sort of like; "I never felt brainwashed" I suppose.
------
Here's another interesting article re scientology and thought-reform:
http://www.xenu.net/archive/infopack/7.htm (http://www.xenu.net/archive/infopack/7.htm)
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Ok, different Barker.
But I still have to wonder if the clams are the wellspring here. Or maybe not. Maybe he just came accross some helpful info about niacin compliments of the clams and wove it into his own fantasy.
I think that all right-thinking people in this country are sick and tired of being told that ordinary, decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I'm certainly not! But I'm sick and tired of being told that I am!
-- Monty Python
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A. Scientology is incredibly coercive. One of the largest private landholders, ready to sue any opponents/journalists, took over the anti-Scientology website for their own purposes. The Seed on Speed!
B. Art did recommend Naicin. We took it as oldcomers, and I remember we actually talked about "is this wrong", because it produced a head-rush and mild euphoria in addition to the skin flushing. Art believed it was good for the heart and removed toxins.
-
On 2005-09-27 07:07:00, cleveland wrote:
"A. Scientology is incredibly coercive. One of the largest private landholders, ready to sue any opponents/journalists, took over the anti-Scientology website for their own purposes. The Seed on Speed!
B. Art did recommend Naicin. We took it as oldcomers, and I remember we actually talked about "is this wrong", because it produced a head-rush and mild euphoria in addition to the skin flushing. Art believed it was good for the heart and removed toxins."
Well Cleveland, that is a different type of coercion. They aren't sending people out to throw you in cars, nor do they padlock you in buildings at night, nor do you sit in wooden chairs for twelve hours a day getting screamed at and sexually humiliated.
No, the seed was scientology on speed, I am afraid you have that backwards.
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I think you are over exaggerating Greg as usual.
Its kind of like a lie detector test I once took before I entered the Seed. Let me clairfy this right away. It was done at a place I worked before I ever thought about going into the Seed.
I thought I was being honest about drug usage, but I probably would have in reality been popping a pill every hour on the hour every day of my life if I would have thought about it. I was way off, but at the time I thought I was telling the truth. They never fired me either, strange. They must have liked me. I in reality remember a couple of over the top raps. I'm sure if you thought about it you would come up with the same figures.
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I have thought about it. The whole shebang was way over the top, IMO..including but not limited to the extreme raps and the "you couldn't fuck a coke bottle" style therapy some of the kids got.
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What, specifically, do you think he's exagerating, Lauderdale?
"sending people out to throw you in cars"
I remember talk of this happening back then, and so I wasn't at all surprised when it happened in Straight.
"padlock you in buildings at night"
Ditto. Padlocks, dead bolts, travelers' locks and even an instance of an attack dog tied outside the bedroom door.
"sit in wooden chairs for twelve hours a day"
'We come each day from 10 till 10....'
"getting screamed at and sexually humiliated."
I think we've pretty well reached a consensus on that one. Remember the rule about not doing that in front of "company" at open meetings? Why in the world would you need a rule like that if it were not going on when the parents weren't sitting there?
"No, the seed was scientology on speed, I am afraid you have that backwards."
I think there's a much darker side to Scientology than what the typical recruit gets. Remember Linda McPherson? Sure, now you can just google her name and read all about it. But back a few years ago, there were very few people willing to speak up about that whole ordeal. And the lawyer who pressed the issue was severely harassed.
I can't say the Seed ever was as scary as Scientology. Not that it drew from any higher moral well or anything. They'd do whatever they could get away with, just like anybody. But they never were so powerful a cult as Hubbard's little shindig.
I don't think that a drug that creates euphoria in patients with terminal diseases is having an adverse effect.
--San Francisco oncologist & AIDS doctor, Donald Abrams, M.D.
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In the hippie subculture of the late '60s & early 70s, it was fairly common to believe that niacin "would clean your system." It's origin, to the best of my recollection, was Haight-Ashbury.
It was believed that niacin could help clean the acid out those experiencing bad trips.
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Well, scientology is big and scary because frankly it is big and powerfull.
I am talking about the every day techniques used. They are no where near coercive as the seed was.
Imagine if Art had accomplished building a major cult the size of scientology full with his "seed army", with thousands upon thousands of kids sitting captive in warehouses till they "got it".
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Well, looking at it slightly differently, we're halfway there.
I think of each of these programs as a part of a much larger movement. How scary are they? Ask a Nicaraguan or an Afghan woman who lived through US funding and support or anyone (long list) who's endured decades of covert and overt US military operations in their neighborhoods, austensibly in the name of the drug war.
But it's not a centrally organized, controled cult. It's more like a movement; I guess I'm describing what some people call the culture war. I think there still are two viable sides to the issue w/ a whole lot of uninformed, uninterested folks in the middle.
The wretchedness of religion is at once an expression and a protest against real wretchedness. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the feeling of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of unspiritual conditions. It is the opium of the people.
--Karl Marx, German economist and political philosopher
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Scientology Fundamentals by L. Ron Hubbard
What is Scientology? Scientology is an applied religious philosophy.
The term Scientology is taken from the Latin word scio (knowing in the fullest sense of the word) and the Greek word logos (study of). In itself the word means literally knowing how to know. Scientology is further defined as the study and handling of the spirit in relationship to itself, universes and other life. Any comparison between Scientology and the subject known as psychology is nonsense.
For Full Essay http://www.ronthephilosopher.org/page43.htm (http://www.ronthephilosopher.org/page43.htm)
Religion is all bunk.
--Thomas Edison, American inventor
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What, specifically, do you think he's exagerating, Lauderdale?
"sending people out to throw you in cars"
I remember talk of this happening back then, and so I wasn't at all surprised when it happened in Straight.
"padlock you in buildings at night"
Ditto. Padlocks, dead bolts, travelers' locks and even an instance of an attack dog tied outside the bedroom door.
"sit in wooden chairs for twelve hours a day"
'We come each day from 10 till 10....'
"getting screamed at and sexually humiliated."
I think we've pretty well reached a consensus on that one. Remember the rule about not doing that in front of "company" at open meetings? Why in the world would you need a rule like that if it were not going on when the parents weren't sitting there?
"No, the seed was scientology on speed, I am afraid you have that backwards."
I think there's a much darker side to Scientology than what the typical recruit gets. Remember Linda McPherson? Sure, now you can just google her name and read all about it. But back a few years ago, there were very few people willing to speak up about that whole ordeal. And the lawyer who pressed the issue was severely harassed.
I can't say the Seed ever was as scary as Scientology. Not that it drew from any higher moral well or anything. They'd do whatever they could get away with, just like anybody. But they never were so powerful a cult as Hubbard's little shindig.
HERESAY THATS WHAT ALOT OF THE ABOVE IS.
NO ONE SAT IN WOODEN CHAIRS SINCE 1972. NO ONE EVER THREW ANYONE IN A CAR THAT I SAW.
ANYTHING COULD HAVE HAPPENED AND MAYBE ISOLATED INCIDENTS OF CERTAIN THINGS MAY HAVE HAPPENED.
YOU KNOW WHAT, THAT WAS OVER 30 YEARS AGO. THAT SHIT I NEVER SAW AND YOU KEEP SAYING THAT YOU HEARD IT HAPPENED YOU WERE NEVER THERE.
I SAY GET OVER IT ALSO. THE SEED WAS NOT PERFECT BUT YOU SURE AS HELL ARN'T EITHER.
A HELL OF ALOT OF GOOD WAS DONE ...PEOPLE'S LIVES CHANGED FOR THE BETTER...I DON'T CARE WHAT THE F--- YOU SAY. I WAS THERE.
PS THE CAPS WERE USED , BECAUSE IT WAS EASIER.[ This Message was edited by: Ft. Lauderdale on 2005-09-27 13:14 ]
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Are you calling my brothers and my parents liars? Oh, and not only them, let's see, neighbors, friends, teachers, newspaper reporters... the list could go on and on.
Greg has said over and over again that, much to his shame, he himself participated in just such an incident. Even John confirmed that you guys did chase people down and lock them in. Not always, but often enough. His words exactly, if I remember right, were "Of course we did, we wanted them to stay".
Why do you feel such a strong need to contradict what is plain fact to all of us who were involved at the time? And yes, I was there, for years. Just because I wasn't in group from 10 - 10 doesn't mean I had no accurate information.
I am sick unto death of obscure English towns that exist seemingly for the sole accommodation of these so-called limerick writers -- and even sicker of their residents, all of whom suffer from physical deformities and spend their time dismembering relatives at fancy dress balls.
--Editor of the Limerick Times
(Limerick, Ireland)
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Well, Barker was almost half-right on the Niacin thing. Chronic alcoholics are usually deficient in Niacin. I used to ride on an ambulance, and we stocked niacin for the more symptomatic drunks. Don't get me wrong - it never snapped them into reality, but it was medical protocol.
But strychnine pockets???? Oh come ON! Where exactly were these "pockets" located? :rofl:
_________________
Where are we going, and what are we doing in this handbasket??[ This Message was edited by: Helena Handbasket on 2005-09-27 20:02 ]
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No one sat in wooden chairs since 1972?
Really, and to think, I came in in July 73 and all that time I coulda swore it was wooden chairs the kids would break pieces off to cut themselves with.
What were they then?
Heresay? Bullshit on that bigtime. Each and every one of the things I have mentioned were witnessed on a routine regular basis by people who were inprisoned involuntarily in your cult. In addition, they were well documented in the press.
Ft Lauderdale, were you really in the seed? All that shit was the culture of the day and if you would use the first and most comical rule, you would stop trying to deny or minimize the facts.
gregfl
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On 2005-09-27 20:24:00, Anonymous Greg wrote:
"No one sat in wooden chairs since 1972?
Hey Greg, maybe he meant no one sat in wooden chairs continuously since 1972. 33 years would be a long sitting. At the Lauderdale Seed, I seem to recall mostly wooden chairs at first, then metal. As I have never seen or heard of wood turning to metal, I guess the kids eventually broke all the pieces off, or Art sent them to St. Pete to have that done. Probably the latter, as I don't recall anyone being asked to sit on a single sliver of wood in Lauderdale. Then Art replaced them with the metal ones. Hell, I suppose in single sliver condition, you couldn't keep calling them chairs anyway. At least not with a straight face.
Newcomers got tougher over time. Can you imagine breaking off chunks of STEEL with your bare hands to cut yourself with? The wooden chair people had it too easy in my opinion.
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Imagine? I've seen it done, bro! Not only that but those metal chairs are not just neat props for WWF events. They actually do make effective offensive weapons.
But wtf are we arguing about, anyway? Wood, plastic, metal, what's the difference? It's not good for anybody to be confined in a highly stressful, ongoing meeting for 12 hours a day, months at a stretch. But that remains a core element of the Seed spawned programs.
But I'm glad you're finally willing to admit to the cutting that went on there. Never saw that happen in school or in juvenile detention or anywhere else but in group.
[Religion is] the daughter of hope and fear, explaining to ignorance the nature of the unknowable.
--Ambrose Bierce
_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed Chicklett `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
10/80 - 10/82
Apostate 10/82 -
Anonymity Anonymous
-
On 2005-09-28 08:44:00, Antigen wrote:
"Imagine? I've seen it done, bro! Not only that but those metal chairs are not just neat props for WWF events. They actually do make effective offensive weapons.
But wtf are we arguing about, anyway? Wood, plastic, metal, what's the difference? It's not good for anybody to be confined in a highly stressful, ongoing meeting for 12 hours a day, months at a stretch. But that remains a core element of the Seed spawned programs.
But I'm glad you're finally willing to admit to the cutting that went on there. Never saw that happen in school or in juvenile detention or anywhere else but in group.
Whoa, Sis. I'm not arguing anything. I don't deny cutting went on. There are not many claims made here that I am in a position to deny. I was simply trying to inject some humor into the day. If anyone is offended by that, please except my apology. My rambling was not intended to evoke anything but a chuckle. :eek:
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Antigen,
It was once 12 hrs a day going back 30 yrs ago.
Lots of things have changed since the 70's 80's and even 90's.
The last time I remember someone even getting yelled at in the group had to be 20 years ago.
I guess ALMOST all of us have evolved since then and moved on.
I never was in ST. Pete so I'm sorry maybe there were wooden chairs there.
Do you still use wire hangers?
:grin:
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On 2005-09-28 09:46:00, Ft. Lauderdale wrote:
"Antigen,
Do you still use wire hangers?
:rofl: :evil: :mad: :tup:
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I seem to remember wooden chairs (vaguely) I guess I was paying more attention to the raps...
But really now... come one 12 hour days BFD, I remember taking acid & speed & being awake for close to a week once....
Let's not forget we were fuckin YOUNG then eh???
I mean I could go all day on about two hours of sleep, hell I'm 48 now & I still only get about 5 - 5 1/2 hours now...
I'm just a little slower now... just a little
:tup:
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Why I oughtta...
When I was in the seed ....
Why we used to stand 20, no, 22, no 24 yeah 24 hours a day at attention, yeah that's it
The rest of these programs now are for BABIES, babies I tell ya...
yada yada you know the rest :em:
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Do you still use wire hangers?
Only to clean my bong!
(just a joke I sold my bong over 20 years ago to Sonny Bono)
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come one 12 hour days BFD, I remember taking acid & speed & being awake for close to a week once....
Let's not forget we were fuckin YOUNG then eh???
I mean I could go all day on about two hours of sleep, hell I'm 48 now & I still only get about 5 - 5 1/2 hours now...
"
and the point flies over your head....
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Yeah,
and sadly did he not crash into a tree while skiing?
Maybe its all your falt Greg. :grin:
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Sorry Sonny.
I was just trying to help.
:grin:
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quote----
"Do you still use wire hangers?"
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Hmmm. Everyone might want to hang on to any of those you still have. The prez just confirmed Robert's so they might make a comeback as a medical tool. Sorry...sick humor. :roll:
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On 2005-09-28 19:36:00, ChrisL wrote:
I remember taking acid & speed & being awake for close to a week once....
I did that once too, taking speed to stay up. After I escaped the overwhelming love of the cult, I wanted to work two shifts then play for one. That lasted maybe a week. The minute I decided it wasn't worth it, I quit.
For two solid years in the Program, I never got to catch up on sleep. It was involuntary. That's the difference.
The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able may have a gun.
-- Patrick Henry
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I had a pretty bad headache one day and a staff member gave me what I thought were two aspirins.Found out by the extreme itching and flushing I had taken two hundred mg. niacin tablets.:eek:rder of art himself.I think Bunny was there,a girl named Marcia,Libby,and Mavis also.That may have been akin to an unlawful act,do you think?
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I DO believe my folks may have been influenced by Arts' proceedures for a short time only,BUT-having my abums taken and my only poster thrown away was sincerely a ploy for power in a family that really wanted me gone anyway-which I was soon after.My phone conversations were recorded and tv time had been taken since I was 11.Arts' deal was helpful to a point,until the parents were asked to basically follow the same rules.That's when they dropped it like a lead weight.My folks were sincere drinkers of scotch from the old school.My old man could finish a fifth and a half in an evening and be fresh at 5a.m.However,on his desk for years was a bottle of 1000 10 mg. dextroamphetaminesulphate tabs.Of course the more I visited, the less the bottles contents became.Mom said "If I listenend to that music it'd be no wonder i took drugs." The biggest changes in music were happening then-1970 and around.They were born 1910 and 1917.There was no way they could hold themselves together with their views though.It's tough now for me to see the true within the new as it is now and I just hit 50.I feel a new conscientiousness and can't share it at a teen level where my heart beats.I suppose that should be normal.
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June was a nice name for this highly individualized personna.She didn't fit into any sterotypes and counselors couldn't tie her to habitual behaviour.She eventually tended at at a big daddys where Big Mama Blu started singing.She had a bit of a crimson rosatia on one cheek and a highly addictive fun attitude.On the strip in '73 she would haunt the strip with cries of "ah ah eee eee tookie tookie"!!Off the strip slighty and near the hall of fame pool,Big Mama Blu was starting to come to her singing senses.
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I was in the SEED on 84, I was one of the guys who mowed arts grass(LOL). I actually like some of the staff and then there were other I could do wihtout. Does anybody remember Robert Chunn, Suzie Conners of any other staff for the early 70's?
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Sure I remember Suzie, but I never personally knew Robert.
Welcome to the forum!
Tell us something you remember about your experience at the seed.
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I was a grad of the 84 room. I remember playing softball and I was one the guys who work with Robert (a black staff member) at Art's house. I also worked on Art's boat when it sank. I have a lot of fond memories of the Seed, I was on staff for a grand total of about two weeks. I knew right away it was not for me. Suzie was always trying to get other people to do her work for her. The staff members played the same game on me after I left staff-the guilt trip-not good enough. but I hung with some other guys who were pretty decent people and had fun with them. I am glad I went. I was lost, confused and angry 16 year old. I had a lot of resentment when I left.
As the years went by I saw that what I learned at the Seed still applied-so weather I was conned or not the words were correct and to be honest with myself and keep challenging myself still applied. As I stated befoe I was angrya nd went back out for a long time. Then I guess I grew up and don't even drink anymore. I feel a lot better now-but mainly due to growing a pair.
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Are you the marble floor Ricci C? I probably know you. Private message me if you want.
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Yes and my father (God rest his sole) did the upstairs staff conference room. HOw do I private message?[ This Message was edited by: RicciC on 2005-11-06 13:36 ]
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See on the left side "Private Messages" click on it.
put in RICCC and your pass word and reead away.
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See on the left side "Private Messages" click on it.
put in RicciC and your pass word and read away.
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Robert Chunn! He was a black staff member and a barber(or was before the Seed). If that was the him, he was a great guy!
He was sincere and really wanted to see peaple succeed. In fact, a number of times I have helped peaple out, I had him in the back of my mind.
Ever hear what happened to him? I hope he has had a great life.
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RicciC,
I have pretty much the same view of the Seed as yourself, at least as I interpret your posts.
There are peaple who I recall.
There was one black dude, Leonard Pope. He was a tough, smart street hustler on the outside. I wonder what ever happened to him.
Or this red haired hard core biker, Randy.
Or this, tall what appreared to be fairly respected dealer on the outside, Marco.
I wonder what happened to those guys.
I met a guy from the Seed in Texas in the early 80's. I was at state road 84, he was at the Miami race track. I met him in the University of Texas MBA program. He got the highest starting salary with what was then the Big 8 pulic accounting firms. He was telling the partners in the firms he was interviewing about his misspent youth and being in the Seed. I think he used it as a differentiator.
A male friend who got put in the Seed after me, and would talk to me after I got kicked out, I just saw how he is working as a Librarian at a Junior college.
Interesting memories.
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I worked with him and Hank and Art's house alot.
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On 2005-09-16 20:08:00, tom s. wrote:
"Anyone here remember the seed 1970?Innocently posing as a hippie house on S.E.3'rd st.Ft.Laud. I think with a big metal peacesign sculpture on the lawn about 41/2- 5 feet in diameter-yellow and also green.I thought it was a used jean store.I went running in there february '70 and found myself in a very Billy Jack community school-like group of people around my age-15 and younger and some older,and Art in a room w/a desk,Pam,a really sweet girl about 20 who cooked for the group,and a sort of innocent seeming ambling about of all,eventually evolving into a session.Anyone remember back that far? "
I was there and I was nine years old and I remember Pam. I had forgot about the sign. Thank you.
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On 2005-09-17 00:48:00, rjfro22 wrote:
"Tom S.
I remember the house on 3rd ave. in 1970
Did Pam have long blond hair ? , she was very beautiful from what I remember. I was about 16 at that time as well time and they served free meals, which attracted a lot of the young street hippies at that time
Do you rmember Maureen, she was like a staff member, and Hap and Mavis, I remember a wedding there as well, it was very Billy Jack like, that was a great discription. People came and went as they pleased. No one tried to make me cut my hair , lots of hugging and genuine caring, it was a very special time. There was a record player up front with several of rock albums . I remember Maureen getiing down to "Mississippi Queen" by Mountain. I remember telling my friends about this cool place called the seed. Every time some one knew came in we really wanted to help them, I remember really caring about everybody back then. My friend Tom W. turned me on to the seed back then and he was only 14 at the time, we both Just walked in, and we were greeted with open arms, and of course a free meal , we used t hitch hike to the meetings from hollywood and some of the time someone would ride us home. [ This Message was edited by: rjfro22 on 2005-09-17 00:54 ]"
I was there then and it was a great place at that time I was only nine which made me somewhat conspicuous for that time. It was a place of love then what happened for God's sake.
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On 2005-09-17 17:50:00, tom s. wrote:
"I was somehow absorbed into being a participant.I remember being with them 6 months and then some more in '71.A bunch of us kids carried really heavy flagstones from down the street behind the seed at s. Andrews.These we placed down outside the house.As the rustic style floor became larger in area as we accumulated more of these flat stones,someone also built an overhead and presto-we had a meeting area much larger than the little cozy house we sadly left behind.At that point it appeared that the friendliness was washed away,but it existed more as an underground movement.I had appeared at the seed because I was running from my brother in law.I had to live w/my sister and him off and on because homelife was not possible peacefully.Well neither was the solution.Eventually I was placed into several other members' homes mostly to keep me apart from the flash point that would ensue from home life.Really,all I had to do was stand at the front door and an arguement would greet me-so-that was actually the basis for my mistaken entry into the orginization.The sessions at S.Andrews became heated.More staff members appeared.Charley Oats,Darlene,Rick and Linda-there's more but their names and faces don't always surface in clarity.Memory is sometimes like those magic eight-balls.You get what appears on the little window with a good shake!I remember when they got a pink toilet seat for what they would refer to as the hot seat.I think it was on a toilet.People got come down on hard.A lot of it was unnecessary.Many of us were accused of having attitudes of heavy druggies and we were entirely too young or inexperienced to know what in the world they were talking about.(Check my other post about the seed song)I was put on the hot seat because I liked someone.The girl was put on the seat because she was accused of playing games.Relationships were not allowed.But as youth flowers,so does the heart.I expect that's why so many cars that went by were accompanied by screams of "the seed sucks!!!"and so on.Those were humerous interludes spaced entirely too far apart. "
Charlie still had long hair and was cool in my memory, Darlene even at nine I found that red head to be a little antagonistant shall we say as opposed to the word that comes to mind. Funny I remembered Mavis as being a New Yorker until I read your post and it clicked. And they were hugely helpful both her and Hap and loving and tough as nails all at the same time. I was so sad when Hap and Mavis disapeared and Charlie especially I looked up to him so much that it made me really sad when he was gone.
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On 2005-09-20 17:51:00, tom s. wrote:
"I don't recall a Dupont or any reps from anywhere.It seems in the time between my two seed sojourns they had absorbed a lot of new members,old staffers returned,and new ones knighted.Now I recall that Mavis Was there,so that means Happy was too.There were a few entrusted from the group to lead meetings and were possibly acting staff members.Renee was a tough n.y.B,but had an enduring sense of humor.Rick and Linda were a married staff couple of mediocre temperment.Rick was pretty funny.Linda was nice.Charley Oats appeared to be deeply sincere about learning human nature and discussing his lifes' mistakes in those terms.He was a great group leader and a tough staff member.He had a wiley way about him as though the nature of true deviousness was awash in his system and an incredibly believable infectious smile.His eyes twinkled when he did grin,but I could not pinpoint the something in myself that distrusted him.There was an indescribeable edge he had or exuded that perhaps not everyone picked up on.That feeling always made me darkly aware of his presence.He had his heart grabbed by Darlene who was just as deeply sly and a discussion leader and staffer of rank.She was tough and perhaps fair and reminded me of howdy doody-red hair-freckles-howdys'face-what can I say.I heard her and Charley got married.I even heard that they went and shot up together.I can't even imagine what that would have done to their relationship.There was a Maureen also.There was this young lady named Donna who by her good nature alone I think slid quietly into the upper echelon.We were all singing "When Irish Eyes Are Smiling"led by Art of course,and he was looking through the crowd inquisitively like someone trying to pinpoint a bacon-cheeseburger with their nose-and I realized what he was searching for.Quite a few of us caught on.It was the unmistakeable voice of an Irish Angel.My god what a voice.Art asked her if she wouldn't mind singing it for us all alone and she obliged.I gotta tell you I had goosebumps and tears!She was tall with dark hair and a very kind face and a nice disposition.I would love to hear her sing again.I believe she became a staff member,but I bet it was too strenuous or should I say her strength probably overcame the piousness necessary to continue in that mode.I draw a blank on other staffers but I know they were there. "
Its funny I remember the little devious smile of Charlie but as nine year old kid i idealized him and he was always real good to me. I am a little mixed up was renee the little bitty junkie prostitute with really long hair or am I mixing her up with Libby?
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This is fascinating stuff! Thanks for posting it. The way you describe it, it seems like it started out w/o Art being the big goomba. Is that right? Were these other people more like peers in the beginning?
He, who has nothing, and who himself belongs to another, must be defended by him, whose property he is, and needs no arms. But he, who thinks he is his own master, and has what he can call his own, ought to have arms to defend himself, and what he possesses; else he lives precariously, and at discretion.
James Burgh 1774
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On 2005-11-22 19:11:00, Antigen wrote:
"This is fascinating stuff! Thanks for posting it. The way you describe it, it seems like it started out w/o Art being the big goomba. Is that right? Were these other people more like peers in the beginning?He, who has nothing, and who himself belongs to another, must be defended by him, whose property he is, and needs no arms. But he, who thinks he is his own master, and has what he can call his own, ought to have arms to defend himself, and what he possesses; else he lives precariously, and at discretion.
James Burgh 1774
"
Peers of Art or of us? I think Hap and Mavis felt like they were part of the leadership yet they related to the group and were in that sense peers. Still it was clear that Art was the vision and leader none the less but Hap and Mavis were mature self thinking adults who worked with Art I felt not for him. And Art at least came across as a vessal for this important work rather than a despotic individual. No doubt it was his vision. But the vision that was his i understood to be motivated by the intolerance within AA that goes on to this day to let people describe there experience with drugs. Another difference was that there were so many adults in the early program. Hardcore users even bikers and such. No very young kids at all really. So to me and I know some argue about the gateway theory but at least the collective experience of those early members reflected that they to a person everyone had started with pot and or alcohol. No question that alcohol led me to a point even after two rounds at the seed to shooting coke and then heroin. Thank God alcohol kept me so broke and busy for a while that I never got too serious about it. Funny too I gave up pot long before my drinking was addressed. I think the peer pressure theory started to evolve out of the idea that it was peer pressure that got us into our problems and just it could in the reverse. For some it did and for some it did not and for some like me a little of both. I think I digressed a little from your point of interest but I guess this is just what one little boy saw and how he understood it.
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On 2005-11-22 20:34:00, landyh wrote:
And Art at least came across as a vessal for this important work rather than a despotic individual.
All despots see themselves as the vessal of some vision or other.
So to me and I know some argue about the gateway theory but at least the collective experience of those early members reflected that they to a person everyone had started with pot and or alcohol.
But the inverse isn't true. Most people who use any kind of psychotropics do not move on to harder drugs. If that were true, around half of my highschool graduating class would have been deadinsaneorinjail years ago. Yours?
I bet they all drank coca-cola and smoked cigaretts, too? Could those be the cause? I'm reducing this to the absurd, I know; but to make a point. A lot of things can play into someone having trouble w/ hard drugs. But pot doesn't seem to be one of them, except by way of venue.
When a man you like switches from what he said a year ago, or four years ago, he is a broad-minded person who has courage enough to change his mind with changing conditions. When a man you don't like does it, he is a liar who has broken his promise.
-- FRANKLIN P.ADAMS (1861-1960).
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On 2005-11-22 20:58:00, Antigen wrote:
"
On 2005-11-22 20:34:00, landyh wrote:
And Art at least came across as a vessal for this important work rather than a despotic individual.
All despots see themselves as the vessal of some vision or other.
So to me and I know some argue about the gateway theory but at least the collective experience of those early members reflected that they to a person everyone had started with pot and or alcohol.
But the inverse isn't true. Most people who use any kind of psychotropics do not move on to harder drugs. If that were true, around half of my highschool graduating class would have been deadinsaneorinjail years ago. Yours?
I bet they all drank coca-cola and smoked cigaretts, too? Could those be the cause? I'm reducing this to the absurd, I know; but to make a point. A lot of things can play into someone having trouble w/ hard drugs. But pot doesn't seem to be one of them, except by way of venue.
When a man you like switches from what he said a year ago, or four years ago, he is a broad-minded person who has courage enough to change his mind with changing conditions. When a man you don't like does it, he is a liar who has broken his promise.
-- FRANKLIN P.ADAMS (1861-1960).
"
I agree with you actually I just was expressing how it made sense to me then in light of those I met with serious problems and there experience. And for me it was letting my guard down one worse thing at a time but nothing was ever so pervasive for me as alcohol. But when you read my story in the other thread I think you will better understand that my gateway was escape. In AA I can almost invariably fein a sort of awareness regarding the women I meet there in that damn near all of them got there through some of same cause and effect relationships in there life that effected me. I can see it a mile away usually so its not intirely feined yet the problem is so pervasive amongst serious addicts of any kind that yours odds are on to guess right. I'm still dazzling with my pyschic powers :lol: