Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => World Wide Association of Specialty Programs and Schools (WWASPS) => Topic started by: BuzzKill on September 04, 2005, 03:50:00 PM
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Whats the deal with taking down the BBS?
You program parents - tell me - what do you think about this? Is it really gone?
Found this on a Blog site.
WWASPS/Teen Help - Utah, Montana, New York, etc...
In one of the most communistic moves to date, the General Discussion Forum on the parent's BBS has been deleted.
Not just sanitized of any posts that might raise concerns among half-baked parents - it's completely GONE.
There had been LOTS of chatter on the forum about Academy at Ivy Ridge not being accredited, being fined by the state of New York and being declared "education fraud" and my guess is that whomever cleans off those posts every day couldn't keep up and decided to just get rid of the problem altogether.
I can understand that.
I'm sure the LAST thing WWASPS/Teen Helps wants is for all 2,500 or so families involved to find out that the accreditation is worthless, the diplomas are junk, and they are being financially exploited.
posted August 24, 2005.
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The BBS from my experience was a GREAT tool for WWASP Program to perpetuate the lie. The BBS parents ,some old timeres continue to expound on the virtues of the Program. If ever a parent had a question they had a pro program solution. The explanation goven were always satisfying to the concerned person. Negative was never allowed.
IMO the BBS is the reason we stayed engaged for as long as we did.
If the BBS has been taken down it is as Buzzkill stated . The facts about Ivy Ridge would cause concern. Not for too long though.
An example would be Dundee Ranch and Casa by the Sea. Once a parent is inducted into their cult, it can be hard to see through the trees.......
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Oh WWASPS, what is it with you and accountability? You speak of children needing to be accountable, yet never the parents, or :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
this should be goooooooooooooooooooooooooooodThere's only one party on Capital Hill and it's the bipartisan spending party.
Tom Schatz, president of Citizens Against Government Waste
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I dont know much about the BBS. Do you think there will large back lash because of this? Was it used alot anyway? Could they put up a new one no one knows about yet? Could it just be down because of a hacker or some other issue? Please, thoughts on the causes.
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On 2005-09-05 07:25:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
The BBS from my experience was a GREAT tool for WWASP Program to perpetuate the lie. The BBS parents ,some old timeres continue to expound on the virtues of the Program. If ever a parent had a question they had a pro program solution. The explanation goven were always satisfying to the concerned person. Negative was never allowed.
IMO the BBS is the reason we stayed engaged for as long as we did.
If the BBS has been taken down it is as Buzzkill stated . The facts about Ivy Ridge would cause concern. Not for too long though.
An example would be Dundee Ranch and Casa by the Sea. Once a parent is inducted into their cult, it can be hard to see through the trees......."
The parents who fall for this program b.s. hook, line and sinker must feel like real smucks when they finally wake up to the reality that they, not their teens, are the troubled one(s).
The teens are the smart ones, from the first day they arrive at "the program" they know it's no club med and/or an exclusive boarding school. Hell, even their friends know the score ... as evident by the many postings here on Fornits written by kids looking for their lost friends who have been "sent away" to a place they know sounds more like a hellcamp than a program for "struggling teens".
Thank God for forums like Fornits where the truth, bitter as it is to swallow, is on the menu 24/7 for prospective parents to consider before making a decision they may regret for the rest of their lives.
:smokin:
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Well, I can't personally confirm that the BBS general board is gone because I was booted off it years ago.
It seems that the boards for the individual "schools" are still operating - just the general board that is gone - which leads me to believe the Bolger is correct in their guess as to why its gone. I'd guess its an attempt to keep the fire from spreading. As it is, I am guessing they think they can keep the majority of the parents ignorant of the problems in "schools" if they can stop the chatter from taking place on the general Discussion board.
I would love to know how the parents feel about this. I can't imagine they wouldn't mind. I can't say for sure about now - but the general board was much more heavily used than the more private school boards when I was on.
I wonder what ole Tom is thinking, about now?
And my friend Linda.
And so many others.
Com'on folks - I know your out there - whats up with this, huh?
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On 2005-09-06 11:30:00, BuzzKill wrote:
"Well, I can't personally confirm that the BBS general board is gone because I was booted off it years ago.
It seems that the boards for the individual "schools" are still operating - just the general board that is gone - which leads me to believe the Bolger is correct in their guess as to why its gone. I'd guess its an attempt to keep the fire from spreading. As it is, I am guessing they think they can keep the majority of the parents ignorant of the problems in "schools" if they can stop the chatter from taking place on the general Discussion board.
I would love to know how the parents feel about this. I can't imagine they wouldn't mind. I can't say for sure about now - but the general board was much more heavily used than the more private school boards when I was on.
I wonder what ole Tom is thinking, about now?
And my friend Linda.
And so many others.
Com'on folks - I know your out there - whats up with this, huh?
"
Hi Buzzkill,
I don't get it ... what could be more important to "discuss" than the issues that were brought to light concerning Ivy Ridge? I mean, it's not like these issues weren't front page news ... so why aren't these parents who have kids at this program (or any other) raising Holy Hell after finding out these diplomas weren't accredited? Could it be they didn't send their kids for an education but rather, to teach them a different kind of lesson?
Come on parents, put down the koolaid and think. What are you not seeing?
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Do the pro WWASPIE parents know about the lawsuit filed?
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On 2005-09-29 12:36:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Do the pro WWASPIE parents know about the lawsuit filed?"
Yes, of course! Even though you label me "pro wwaspie, I'm pro choice. It was my choice and what has been best for me and my kid.
When I looked at it and saw how miniscule the numbers - less than 10? I compared it to the hundreds of families that have been
helped in ways WAY beyond anything that the marketing companies ever said (In a good way)
The lawsuit has had not had a negative impact on parents getting effective help.
What effect has it had on you?
Dolphin
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On 2005-09-29 14:08:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-09-29 12:36:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Do the pro WWASPIE parents know about the lawsuit filed?"
Yes, of course! Even though you label me "pro wwaspie, I'm pro choice. It was my choice and what has been best for me and my kid.
When I looked at it and saw how miniscule the numbers - less than 10? I compared it to the hundreds of families that have been
helped in ways WAY beyond anything that the marketing companies ever said (In a good way)
The lawsuit has had not had a negative impact on parents getting effective help.
What effect has it had on you?
Dolphin
"
not this douchebag again.
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On 2005-09-29 14:08:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-09-29 12:36:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Do the pro WWASPIE parents know about the lawsuit filed?"
Yes, of course! Even though you label me "pro wwaspie, I'm pro choice. It was my choice and what has been best for me and my kid.
When I looked at it and saw how miniscule the numbers - less than 10? I compared it to the hundreds of families that have been
helped in ways WAY beyond anything that the marketing companies ever said (In a good way)
The lawsuit has had not had a negative impact on parents getting effective help.
What effect has it had on you?
Dolphin
"
It's not a numbers game ... it's a money game. If the plaintiffs win, this could be a HUGE SETTLEMENT, correct?
How is that good for WWASP?
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Hey dolpin -
What do You think about yanking the parent's general board? Does this not raise some questions in your mind? How do you answer them? What possible excuse can you come up with to justify it?
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On 2005-09-29 14:25:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-09-29 14:08:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-09-29 12:36:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Do the pro WWASPIE parents know about the lawsuit filed?"
Yes, of course! Even though you label me "pro wwaspie, I'm pro choice. It was my choice and what has been best for me and my kid.
When I looked at it and saw how miniscule the numbers - less than 10? I compared it to the hundreds of families that have been
helped in ways WAY beyond anything that the marketing companies ever said (In a good way)
The lawsuit has had not had a negative impact on parents getting effective help.
What effect has it had on you?
Dolphin
"
not this douchebag again."
:rofl:
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On 2005-09-29 14:41:00, BuzzKill wrote:
"Hey dolpin -
What do You think about yanking the parent's general board? Does this not raise some questions in your mind? How do you answer them? What possible excuse can you come up with to justify it?
"
Great question. Wonder if Dolphin will have an answer ... oops, I mean excuse? These parents should be seeing red flags not overdosing on the koolaid.
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General Board on WWASPS BBS being yanked? Where did that come from? I was just over there and it's alive and well - did Dolphin say it was gone or something? Maybe it was down for a short time, that happens once in a while. No threads missing or posts gone that I can tell.
The education/diploma issues are no longer issues and haven't been for quite some time.
The lawsuit is not about numbers (too small) nor money - there are too many programs out there that charge a lot more with less than desired results. Don't you all hate WWASPS because it has a great curriculum that can have phenomenal results? Is that why every other program out there tries to copy it, but just doesn't have it yet?
Badmouth it...no problem. I know why you do it and it IS all about money
:wink:
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I think the lawsuit is not about money.It may be more about exposing the abusers for what they do and NOT do.
A seminar entrenched parent is hooked line and sinker. No way to change their mind. Don't waste good energy trying.
They will be filing a suit too if and when they get a chance to speak safely with htier kid.
GOOD LUCK brain washed parent.
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On 2005-09-29 20:24:00, Anonymous wrote:
"General Board on WWASPS BBS being yanked? Where did that come from? I was just over there and it's alive and well - did Dolphin say it was gone or something? Maybe it was down for a short time, that happens once in a while. No threads missing or posts gone that I can tell.
The education/diploma issues are no longer issues and haven't been for quite some time.
The lawsuit is not about numbers (too small) nor money - there are too many programs out there that charge a lot more with less than desired results. Don't you all hate WWASPS because it has a great curriculum that can have phenomenal results? Is that why every other program out there tries to copy it, but just doesn't have it yet?
Badmouth it...no problem. I know why you do it and it IS all about money
:smokin:
:smokin:
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Check out Litchfield's Defintion of ABUSE ... no wonder these parents are so anti-teen. What kid doesn't have some sense of entitlement? Hell, you don't think these WWASPS WEENIE parents don't have some "entitlement" issues of their own? Of course they do ... they are just first-class hypocrites and quite frankly, more mean tempered than a junkyard dog. 9/b]
Program to Help Youths Has Troubles of Its Own
New York Times/September 6, 2003
By Tim Weiner
Thompson Falls, Mont. -- Spring Creek Lodge Academy, home to thousands of wayward children since 1996, calls itself "a safe haven for change." Many parents swear with near-religious devotion that the program, one of the nation's largest, has saved their sons and daughters. Others have come to curse it.
The program is affiliated with the World Wide Association of Specialty Programs and Schools, or Wwasps, a multimillion-dollar business in the industry of "tough love" programs and "specialty boarding schools" that have flourished, often unregulated, for two decades.
Wwasps affiliates in Mexico, Costa Rica, Western Samoa and the Czech Republic have closed under accusations of cruelty since 1996. The affiliate in Costa Rica, in fact, collapsed in May when students revolted.
A review of seven of the company's largest affiliates in the United States, where it remains the fastest-growing program of its kind, found accusations of misconduct or wrongdoing at four of them.
In Utah and South Carolina, state officials have cited the programs and their staff members for violations including child abuse and overcrowding, and have challenged their right to operate.
Here at the company's largest affiliate, Spring Creek Lodge, the program and its staff have been accused of sexual abuse, physical violence and psychological duress.
Wwasps, whose programs house about 2,400 youths in all, some as young as 10, has fought and denied all charges.
The founder, Robert B. Lichfield, 49, called the accusations part of a difficult business. "When you have troubled kids and troubled parents - any school or program that works with troubled kids has complaints," Mr. Lichfield said in a telephone interview. "We're no different."
He attributed the growth of Wwasps to "the breakdown of the family," saying, "When the family is not functioning, society suffers."
Wwasps has flourished and profited by tapping a deep well of woe in American families, interviews and correspondence with more than 200 parents, children, staff members and program officials made clear.
Parents say they turned to the programs in exasperation, or exhaustion, seeking salvation, or in some cases exile, for their sons and daughters. Many say Wwasps was their only alternative after schools, public health systems, counseling and the courts failed them.
Spring Creek Lodge's associate director, Chaffin Pullan, 32, said, "We're crazy enough to say, 'Hey, we'll take your child, and we'll work on their values.' "
But at Spring Creek Lodge, as at several other affiliates, some of that work takes place under conditions and circumstances that some children and parents call physically and psychologically brutal.
Where state regulators have challenged affiliates, government officials often spend years trying to control or sanction the programs' defiance of licensing rules.
South Carolina officials, for example, after four years of fighting, have barred Narvin Lichfield, the brother of the Wwasps' founder, from Carolina Springs Academy, the program that Narvin Lichfield owns in the tiny town of Due West.
In Utah, officials are wrestling with Majestic Ranch, which takes children as young as 10, and where a program director was recently charged with child abuse, as well as with a new program at the flagship affiliate, Cross Creek, for clients over age 18. Neither program has obtained the required operating license, state officials said.
Robert Lichfield, who once said he believed only Satan stood in the way of the programs' goals, said state authorities were merely reacting to pressure from parents or reporters, adding, "If I was in their position, I would be doing the same thing."
Federal authorities are also taking a look at Wwasps. On July 10, Representative George Miller of California, the ranking Democrat on the House Education Committee, asked the Treasury Department to see whether Wwasps received unusual "tax deductions, tax credits or any special tax treatment."
Affiliates gross perhaps $70 million a year, an estimate based on their enrollment, tuition and fees. A company spokesman, James Wall, said it had always filed its federal income taxes properly. But Mr. Wall said Wwasps, which calls itself a nonprofit corporation in Utah, had never applied for nonprofit, tax-exempt status with the Internal Revenue Service.
The company says it does not directly own or control any of its affiliates, and claims no responsibility for their programs. But Spring Creek Lodge employees, for instance, say the program sends about 40 percent of its revenues to Wwasps.
Amberly Knight, a former director of Dundee Ranch, the affiliate in Costa Rica that collapsed last spring, said in a sworn statement that the company took 75 percent of Dundee Ranch's income, leaving little money to care for its 200 children. The statement also said company officials maintained "offshore bank accounts," in part to "evade U.S. income taxes."
Here in Montana, where 50 other programs for troubled teenagers have opened in addition to Spring Creek Lodge, the state does not regulate private schools, state officials say.
"We have a tremendous number - an inordinate amount - of these programs in western Montana," said Paul Clark, a Montana state legislator who represents the Thompson Falls area and also runs a program for about a dozen wayward teenagers. But the state lacks the capacity or the expertise to regulate them, Mr. Clark said, adding, "We'll get action after there's a crisis."
Many children from the affiliate that collapsed in Costa Rica wound up at Spring Creek Lodge, where the enrollment has doubled to about 500 in two years, and whose parents pay roughly $40,000 a year and up.
That growth has created an unfilled demand for trained teachers and counselors, staff members say. The program is the largest employer in this corner of Montana, where jobs are scarce and wages low.
As the school has grown, so have accusations of abuse.
A log cabin with tiny isolation rooms, called the Hobbit, sits on the edge of Spring Creek Lodge's compound in the woods. Some teenagers, like Alex Ziperovich, 16, say they have spent months in the Hobbit, eating meals of beans and bananas.
"He came out 35 pounds lighter, acting like a zombie," said his mother, Michele Ziperovich, a Seattle lawyer. "When he came back, he was worse, far worse."
In March, the county prosecutor charged a 20-year-old staff member with sexually assaulting two boys in the Hobbit, one 14 and the other 17. He denies the charges.
In June, a girl was beaten by students with a shower-curtain rod; in September 2002 a student bent on escape beat a guard with a vacuum-cleaner pipe and shattered his cheekbone, said Mr. Pullan, Spring Creek Lodge's the associate director, and several staff members.
The September assault followed a similar attack three weeks earlier; Thompson Falls residents say escape attempts are rising.
Mr. Pullan said the academy was curtailing use of the isolation rooms. He called the recent violence against staff members unusual and "horrific." But he is said he was convinced that the academy was helping the vast majority of its children.
He acknowledged that it had been hard to hire and retain skilled local staff members.
One former staff member, Mark Runkle, who worked for two and a half years at the academy, said he became skeptical of some practices, like taking children into the woods at night for psychological tests of will.
"They take kids down to the Vermillion Bridge at night, blindfold them, and push them off into the river; they take them off into the woods, and they come back hurt," Mr. Runkle said. "They claim it's a mind-increaser. I think it breaks the kids down - breaks their will down. Mentally, they do damage. Emotionally, too."
Despite such accounts, parents continue to turn to such programs. The reasons that the parents, children, staff members and program officials cite are the crises common to American family life: fractured marriages, failing schools, frantic two-job couples with no time to devote to children.
The accelerating pace of adolescence and a "zero-tolerance" culture leave teenagers no margin for mistakes, experts say.
Managed care has cut insurance coverage for residential treatment. Reduced federal and state support have hobbled community-based counseling. A new White House study calls state and federal mental health programs a shambles.
Some parents of children damaged by drugs, drinking, depression or divorce say Wwasps programs were their sole alternative.
"We refer to it, my husband and I, as the program of last resort," Debbie Wood said. She and her husband moved from Seattle to Thompson Falls in March to be near their son, Sam, now 17, at Spring Creek Lodge. "I don't know of another program that would fill our needs the way Wwasps has," Mrs. Wood said.
Other parents, too, are satisfied. Deb Granneman, of Saline, Mich., said: "With my son it worked; it's not going to work for every kid. When you send your kid there, you're giving them the last chance to turn their lives around."
Mr. Pullan, along with 37 parents, children and staff members interviewed personally, by phone, or through e-mail, say few Spring Creek Lodge children are delinquents.
Perhaps one-quarter are drug users or drinkers, Mr. Pullan said, while "about 70 percent are not hard core - they cannot communicate at home." Many children say they were sent here after a parent died or departed, or a new stepmother or stepfather rejected them.
A crucial part of the company's effort to shape its success is a requisite series of emotional-growth seminars for parents. "The seminars are the most important thing we have experienced as a family," said Rosemary Hinch, a teacher in Phoenix.
"It was painful; it was hard," Ms. Hinch said. "They teach you to take a really good look at yourself."
But the seminars persuaded Michele Ziperovich to pull her son Alex out. "It was 300 adults screaming and beating on chairs, three days of no sleep, and after that, you'll buy into whatever they say," Ms. Ziperovich said. "They berate you, they scream at you, exhaust you. It's basically mind control."
The question of control also arises among staff members and children who say many teenagers at Spring Creek Lodge are sedated, night and day. "There are girls on so many antidepressants given out by the program that they can't move," said Lauren Meksraitis, 18, of Tampa, Fla., a former Spring Creek client. "They can't get out of bed. They are like dead animals."
A company spokesman said a visiting psychiatrist prescribed the drugs, which are dispensed by a nurse or "other staff members."
But Ms. Meksraitis said: "The Spring Creek staff members responsible for family contacts don't tell your parents the truth. They lie to parents and tell them their kids are going to get fixed."
Her father, Michael Meksraitis, a lawyer, agreed, saying: "They misrepresent the program. They take advantage of parents in a very vulnerable position, who don't know what to do with their kids, who are at the end of their rope."
Robert Lichfield, who dropped out of college and became director of residential programs at a Utah institution for teenagers that was subsequently closed by the state for cruelty to children, says he has learned some lessons from a quarter-century of experience in the business.
"Kids think they ought to be able to do whatever they want," he said. "And if they can't, that's abuse."
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"We sent our son to Tranquility Bay after many problems. He returned to us a beaten, brainwashed young man who now is dealing with major psychiatric problems. He has nightmares about the abuse and the screams of others being assaulted. My husband and I actually visited there and all the horrible stuff was thoroughly covered up during our visit. I can't sleep at night due to the guilt I feel because I willingly sent him there. Since returning from Jamaica he has been treated in many hospitals."
"I attended a 'Teen Boot Camp' ('Academy') for three and one half months and have now returned to school in the United States. But I have many complaints about the treatment that I received there. I was taken from my home, brought to Samoa, strip searched, had my belongings taken from me and was not allowed to contact my mom. I also did not receive proper medical care and was thrown into isolation. My food and water were taken away at times and I was beaten. It seemed worse than being in jail."
"I am a former student/inmate at Casa By the Sea. During 2001 a girl died in Jamaica's Tranquility Bay. Later, my mother pulled me out because she didn't approve of their so-called treatment program. My 10 month experience in Ensenada was traumatic. I endured their seminars and punishment. I hope WWASP will be shut down permanently."
"I took my daughter to Cross Creek Manor one of WWASP's programs and attended their Discovery Seminar. This seminar made me very uncomfortable. I did not like the techniques used to intimidate people. We were told we had to attend these seminars if we wanted to attend workshops with our children. I felt manipulated by the facilitator. The staffers all looked brainwashed to me, with hazy eyes and smiles from ear-to-ear. We were never informed that this program was to crush you as a person. It was supposedly a boarding school to help with self esteem and defiant problems. I got my daughter out of there as soon as possible, but she was in that hell hole for one month. The stories she tells are horrible. She said that she fought an emotional breakdown every day praying that we would come and get her. The program bothered me the moment they told me I could have no contact with my daughter, except through the mail, which they read. They told the children over and over that 'your parent's don't care about you and that's why you are here!' I am outraged by the damage they have caused my daughter. She would have been better off staying at home."
For every glowing WWASPIE testimonial, there are testimonials like these that can be found on the Internet, in this instance, the RICK ROSS website.
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On 2005-09-29 21:27:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Check out Litchfield's Defintion of ABUSE ... no wonder these parents are so anti-teen. What kid doesn't have some sense of entitlement? Hell, you don't think these WWASPS WEENIE parents don't have some "entitlement" issues of their own? Of course they do ... they are just first-class hypocrites and quite frankly, more mean tempered than a junkyard dog. 9/b]
Program to Help Youths Has Troubles of Its Own
New York Times/September 6, 2003
By Tim Weiner
Thompson Falls, Mont. -- Spring Creek Lodge Academy, home to thousands of wayward children since 1996, calls itself "a safe haven for change." Many parents swear with near-religious devotion that the program, one of the nation's largest, has saved their sons and daughters. Others have come to curse it.
The program is affiliated with the World Wide Association of Specialty Programs and Schools, or Wwasps, a multimillion-dollar business in the industry of "tough love" programs and "specialty boarding schools" that have flourished, often unregulated, for two decades.
Wwasps affiliates in Mexico, Costa Rica, Western Samoa and the Czech Republic have closed under accusations of cruelty since 1996. The affiliate in Costa Rica, in fact, collapsed in May when students revolted.
A review of seven of the company's largest affiliates in the United States, where it remains the fastest-growing program of its kind, found accusations of misconduct or wrongdoing at four of them.
In Utah and South Carolina, state officials have cited the programs and their staff members for violations including child abuse and overcrowding, and have challenged their right to operate.
Here at the company's largest affiliate, Spring Creek Lodge, the program and its staff have been accused of sexual abuse, physical violence and psychological duress.
Wwasps, whose programs house about 2,400 youths in all, some as young as 10, has fought and denied all charges.
The founder, Robert B. Lichfield, 49, called the accusations part of a difficult business. "When you have troubled kids and troubled parents - any school or program that works with troubled kids has complaints," Mr. Lichfield said in a telephone interview. "We're no different."
He attributed the growth of Wwasps to "the breakdown of the family," saying, "When the family is not functioning, society suffers."
Wwasps has flourished and profited by tapping a deep well of woe in American families, interviews and correspondence with more than 200 parents, children, staff members and program officials made clear.
Parents say they turned to the programs in exasperation, or exhaustion, seeking salvation, or in some cases exile, for their sons and daughters. Many say Wwasps was their only alternative after schools, public health systems, counseling and the courts failed them.
Spring Creek Lodge's associate director, Chaffin Pullan, 32, said, "We're crazy enough to say, 'Hey, we'll take your child, and we'll work on their values.' "
But at Spring Creek Lodge, as at several other affiliates, some of that work takes place under conditions and circumstances that some children and parents call physically and psychologically brutal.
Where state regulators have challenged affiliates, government officials often spend years trying to control or sanction the programs' defiance of licensing rules.
South Carolina officials, for example, after four years of fighting, have barred Narvin Lichfield, the brother of the Wwasps' founder, from Carolina Springs Academy, the program that Narvin Lichfield owns in the tiny town of Due West.
In Utah, officials are wrestling with Majestic Ranch, which takes children as young as 10, and where a program director was recently charged with child abuse, as well as with a new program at the flagship affiliate, Cross Creek, for clients over age 18. Neither program has obtained the required operating license, state officials said.
Robert Lichfield, who once said he believed only Satan stood in the way of the programs' goals, said state authorities were merely reacting to pressure from parents or reporters, adding, "If I was in their position, I would be doing the same thing."
Federal authorities are also taking a look at Wwasps. On July 10, Representative George Miller of California, the ranking Democrat on the House Education Committee, asked the Treasury Department to see whether Wwasps received unusual "tax deductions, tax credits or any special tax treatment."
Affiliates gross perhaps $70 million a year, an estimate based on their enrollment, tuition and fees. A company spokesman, James Wall, said it had always filed its federal income taxes properly. But Mr. Wall said Wwasps, which calls itself a nonprofit corporation in Utah, had never applied for nonprofit, tax-exempt status with the Internal Revenue Service.
The company says it does not directly own or control any of its affiliates, and claims no responsibility for their programs. But Spring Creek Lodge employees, for instance, say the program sends about 40 percent of its revenues to Wwasps.
Amberly Knight, a former director of Dundee Ranch, the affiliate in Costa Rica that collapsed last spring, said in a sworn statement that the company took 75 percent of Dundee Ranch's income, leaving little money to care for its 200 children. The statement also said company officials maintained "offshore bank accounts," in part to "evade U.S. income taxes."
Here in Montana, where 50 other programs for troubled teenagers have opened in addition to Spring Creek Lodge, the state does not regulate private schools, state officials say.
"We have a tremendous number - an inordinate amount - of these programs in western Montana," said Paul Clark, a Montana state legislator who represents the Thompson Falls area and also runs a program for about a dozen wayward teenagers. But the state lacks the capacity or the expertise to regulate them, Mr. Clark said, adding, "We'll get action after there's a crisis."
Many children from the affiliate that collapsed in Costa Rica wound up at Spring Creek Lodge, where the enrollment has doubled to about 500 in two years, and whose parents pay roughly $40,000 a year and up.
That growth has created an unfilled demand for trained teachers and counselors, staff members say. The program is the largest employer in this corner of Montana, where jobs are scarce and wages low.
As the school has grown, so have accusations of abuse.
A log cabin with tiny isolation rooms, called the Hobbit, sits on the edge of Spring Creek Lodge's compound in the woods. Some teenagers, like Alex Ziperovich, 16, say they have spent months in the Hobbit, eating meals of beans and bananas.
"He came out 35 pounds lighter, acting like a zombie," said his mother, Michele Ziperovich, a Seattle lawyer. "When he came back, he was worse, far worse."
In March, the county prosecutor charged a 20-year-old staff member with sexually assaulting two boys in the Hobbit, one 14 and the other 17. He denies the charges.
In June, a girl was beaten by students with a shower-curtain rod; in September 2002 a student bent on escape beat a guard with a vacuum-cleaner pipe and shattered his cheekbone, said Mr. Pullan, Spring Creek Lodge's the associate director, and several staff members.
The September assault followed a similar attack three weeks earlier; Thompson Falls residents say escape attempts are rising.
Mr. Pullan said the academy was curtailing use of the isolation rooms. He called the recent violence against staff members unusual and "horrific." But he is said he was convinced that the academy was helping the vast majority of its children.
He acknowledged that it had been hard to hire and retain skilled local staff members.
One former staff member, Mark Runkle, who worked for two and a half years at the academy, said he became skeptical of some practices, like taking children into the woods at night for psychological tests of will.
"They take kids down to the Vermillion Bridge at night, blindfold them, and push them off into the river; they take them off into the woods, and they come back hurt," Mr. Runkle said. "They claim it's a mind-increaser. I think it breaks the kids down - breaks their will down. Mentally, they do damage. Emotionally, too."
Despite such accounts, parents continue to turn to such programs. The reasons that the parents, children, staff members and program officials cite are the crises common to American family life: fractured marriages, failing schools, frantic two-job couples with no time to devote to children.
The accelerating pace of adolescence and a "zero-tolerance" culture leave teenagers no margin for mistakes, experts say.
Managed care has cut insurance coverage for residential treatment. Reduced federal and state support have hobbled community-based counseling. A new White House study calls state and federal mental health programs a shambles.
Some parents of children damaged by drugs, drinking, depression or divorce say Wwasps programs were their sole alternative.
"We refer to it, my husband and I, as the program of last resort," Debbie Wood said. She and her husband moved from Seattle to Thompson Falls in March to be near their son, Sam, now 17, at Spring Creek Lodge. "I don't know of another program that would fill our needs the way Wwasps has," Mrs. Wood said.
Other parents, too, are satisfied. Deb Granneman, of Saline, Mich., said: "With my son it worked; it's not going to work for every kid. When you send your kid there, you're giving them the last chance to turn their lives around."
Mr. Pullan, along with 37 parents, children and staff members interviewed personally, by phone, or through e-mail, say few Spring Creek Lodge children are delinquents.
Perhaps one-quarter are drug users or drinkers, Mr. Pullan said, while "about 70 percent are not hard core - they cannot communicate at home." Many children say they were sent here after a parent died or departed, or a new stepmother or stepfather rejected them.
A crucial part of the company's effort to shape its success is a requisite series of emotional-growth seminars for parents. "The seminars are the most important thing we have experienced as a family," said Rosemary Hinch, a teacher in Phoenix.
"It was painful; it was hard," Ms. Hinch said. "They teach you to take a really good look at yourself."
But the seminars persuaded Michele Ziperovich to pull her son Alex out. "It was 300 adults screaming and beating on chairs, three days of no sleep, and after that, you'll buy into whatever they say," Ms. Ziperovich said. "They berate you, they scream at you, exhaust you. It's basically mind control."
The question of control also arises among staff members and children who say many teenagers at Spring Creek Lodge are sedated, night and day. "There are girls on so many antidepressants given out by the program that they can't move," said Lauren Meksraitis, 18, of Tampa, Fla., a former Spring Creek client. "They can't get out of bed. They are like dead animals."
A company spokesman said a visiting psychiatrist prescribed the drugs, which are dispensed by a nurse or "other staff members."
But Ms. Meksraitis said: "The Spring Creek staff members responsible for family contacts don't tell your parents the truth. They lie to parents and tell them their kids are going to get fixed."
Her father, Michael Meksraitis, a lawyer, agreed, saying: "They misrepresent the program. They take advantage of parents in a very vulnerable position, who don't know what to do with their kids, who are at the end of their rope."
Robert Lichfield, who dropped out of college and became director of residential programs at a Utah institution for teenagers that was subsequently closed by the state for cruelty to children, says he has learned some lessons from a quarter-century of experience in the business.
"Kids think they ought to be able to do whatever they want," he said. "And if they can't, that's abuse."
"
Geez, I don't know what more evidence people (parents and legislators) need to see what these programs are all about.
It's no wonder they resist licensing and oversight so vehemently - they'd be fined, sued, and sanctioned out of business. And I do mean business, not "operation," as these places exist for the sole reason of gaining capital.
-
see info regarding this reporter at
http://www.wwaspsrebuttal.com (http://www.wwaspsrebuttal.com)
good guy or not...I think not
-
http://www.wwaspsrebuttal.com/nytimes.html (http://www.wwaspsrebuttal.com/nytimes.html)
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On 2005-09-30 14:10:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
see info regarding this reporter at
http://www.wwaspsrebuttal.com (http://www.wwaspsrebuttal.com)
good guy or not...I think not "
More WWASPie propaganda, eh? Don't you get it? People who haven't been through your brainwashing seminars can see through your bullshit, including your little "rebuttal" site.
-
Brainwashing? Living healthy is brainwashing??
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On 2005-10-01 13:41:00, Anonymous wrote:
"Brainwashing? Living healthy is brainwashing??
"
Do you consider walking around with a glazed-over dreamy look, while parroting program-ese because you're unable to construct a simple thought without permission of the program "Healthy"?
Why don't you watch the 15 minute video. The parents have two modes: scanning speech with a glazed over expression, or teary eyes. There's little variation.
-
You're right...in most cases teens sent to these programs weren't taking advantage of the education they were receiving prior to their admittance. Parents are hoping they'll keep the teen alive as the #1 priority, drug free as the 2nd priority. Once these 2 objectives are met, hopefully they will be receptive to an education.
The parents put down their Koolaid when their kids started making poor choices. It is not a rosey picture when you see your teen looking thru red eyes 24/7!
-
One of the things that brought to my attention just how programmed the parents were, was when it came to light Dundee was not accredited.
I was majorly PO'd. I had been sold a advanced and progressive educational experience. I was assured it was fully accredited and the credits were fully transferable - I was even told about the high percentage of Program students who went on to the Ivy League!
There were a few other voices expressing anger and frustration - but for the most part the attitude was - so what?
The majority of the parents bought the line the anon just gave - they are druggie punks who aren't achieving in school anyway - so the educational aspect of the program was a non issue.
Blew me away.
How could any thinking person say such a thing?
Their paying thousands on top of thousands of dollars to this "Academy" and their child's education was worthless, and they didn't care?!
Yeah - that was a wake up call.
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On 2005-10-13 09:19:00, BuzzKill wrote:
"One of the things that brought to my attention just how programmed the parents were, was when it came to light Dundee was not accredited.
I was majorly PO'd. I had been sold a advanced and progressive educational experience. I was assured it was fully accredited and the credits were fully transferable - I was even told about the high percentage of Program students who went on to the Ivy League!
There were a few other voices expressing anger and frustration - but for the most part the attitude was - so what?
The majority of the parents bought the line the anon just gave - they are druggie punks who aren't achieving in school anyway - so the educational aspect of the program was a non issue.
Blew me away.
How could any thinking person say such a thing?
Their paying thousands on top of thousands of dollars to this "Academy" and their child's education was worthless, and they didn't care?!
Yeah - that was a wake up call.
"
Maybe the Carlbrook parents would be interested in hearing about that. Right now they're drowning in Kool-Aid.
-
WWASPIE parents have a history of blind ignorance about many issues ...
Case In Point:
In the United States, under FEDERAL LAW, every child is entitled to an education.
Depriving a child of an education b/c they are "druggies" is a crime.
What needs to happen is for one of these kids to SUE THEIR PARENT (and the program, as a co-conspirator) for depriving them of an education.
Only then will parents sit up and take notice!
:smokin:
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On 2005-10-13 10:25:00, Anonymous wrote:
"WWASPIE parents have a history of blind ignorance about many issues ...
Case In Point:
In the United States, under FEDERAL LAW, every child is entitled to an education.
Depriving a child of an education b/c they are "druggies" is a crime.
What needs to happen is for one of these kids to SUE THEIR PARENT (and the program, as a co-conspirator) for depriving them of an education.
Only then will parents sit up and take notice!
:smokin:
"
I agree, but, they couldnt sue because they are receiving an education, maybe the best in the country, maybe the worse. Sounds like they are doing everything right, classrooms,teachers, desks etc.. They just dont have the paperwork done to hand out diplomas and as a previous post mentioned, education is probably #3 on the list for most parents. Many of the kids were not taking full advantage of the school they were in, so it is a step forward for most.
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On 2005-10-13 16:21:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-10-13 10:25:00, Anonymous wrote:
"WWASPIE parents have a history of blind ignorance about many issues ...
Case In Point:
In the United States, under FEDERAL LAW, every child is entitled to an education.
Depriving a child of an education b/c they are "druggies" is a crime.
What needs to happen is for one of these kids to SUE THEIR PARENT (and the program, as a co-conspirator) for depriving them of an education.
Only then will parents sit up and take notice!
:smokin:
"
I agree, but, they couldnt sue because they are receiving an education, maybe the best in the country, maybe the worse. Sounds like they are doing everything right, classrooms,teachers, desks etc.. They just dont have the paperwork done to hand out diplomas and as a previous post mentioned, education is probably #3 on the list for most parents. Many of the kids were not taking full advantage of the school they were in, so it is a step forward for most."
I understand the point you are trying to make, but here's the deal: Just b/c a kid isnt excelling at their regular school doesn't mean they can or should be DUMBED down by placing them in a school (cough-cough) that puts a low priority on academics.
Come on, raising a kid's emmotional IQ is just as important as academics. Most of these kids are teacing themselves in the behavior mod warehouses, there are no credentialed teachers ... there is cheating going on, trading deodrant for credits, etc. It's a fucking joke and the parents who condone this by saying ... well he/she wasnt going to graduate from their regular school anyway, are just making excuses.
Being a non-compliant teen is not an excuse to lock someone up, just as poor performance in school is not an excuse to lower the bar on academics.
These kids are being shortchanged in every way, thanks to their parents that buy into this crap dished out by their program of choice.
:smokin:
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On 2005-10-13 16:21:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-10-13 10:25:00, Anonymous wrote:
"WWASPIE parents have a history of blind ignorance about many issues ...
Case In Point:
In the United States, under FEDERAL LAW, every child is entitled to an education.
Depriving a child of an education b/c they are "druggies" is a crime.
What needs to happen is for one of these kids to SUE THEIR PARENT (and the program, as a co-conspirator) for depriving them of an education.
Only then will parents sit up and take notice!
:smokin:
"
I agree, but, they couldnt sue because they are receiving an education, maybe the best in the country, maybe the worse. Sounds like they are doing everything right, classrooms,teachers, desks etc.. They just dont have the paperwork done to hand out diplomas and as a previous post mentioned, education is probably #3 on the list for most parents. Many of the kids were not taking full advantage of the school they were in, so it is a step forward for most."
Wow, that's quite a spin. How much are you WWASPies getting paid for writing these things these days? Is it still $50?
Education in WWASP facilities is non-existent. The kids have to teach themselves out of books. There are no essays, book reports, presentations, etc. The only "work" these kids do is fill in bubbles in multiple choice tests. The "teachers" are, in most cases, uneducated and lacking any kind of educational certification or licensing. More often than not, they have to refer to an answer key when they grade a prisoner's test.
Prisoners are not allowed to get a grade that's less than 80%. That would make the program look bad. So, the kids are forced to re-take the same old test over and over again until they reach 80% (or until they give up and move on to a different booklet).
They are not doing anything "right". As far as academics go, it looks like WWASP isn't doing anything at all.
-
On 2005-10-13 16:41:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-10-13 16:21:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-10-13 10:25:00, Anonymous wrote:
"WWASPIE parents have a history of blind ignorance about many issues ...
Case In Point:
In the United States, under FEDERAL LAW, every child is entitled to an education.
Depriving a child of an education b/c they are "druggies" is a crime.
What needs to happen is for one of these kids to SUE THEIR PARENT (and the program, as a co-conspirator) for depriving them of an education.
Only then will parents sit up and take notice!
:smokin:
"
I agree, but, they couldnt sue because they are receiving an education, maybe the best in the country, maybe the worse. Sounds like they are doing everything right, classrooms,teachers, desks etc.. They just dont have the paperwork done to hand out diplomas and as a previous post mentioned, education is probably #3 on the list for most parents. Many of the kids were not taking full advantage of the school they were in, so it is a step forward for most."
Wow, that's quite a spin. How much are you WWASPies getting paid for writing these things these days? Is it still $50?
Education in WWASP facilities is non-existent. The kids have to teach themselves out of books. There are no essays, book reports, presentations, etc. The only "work" these kids do is fill in bubbles in multiple choice tests. The "teachers" are, in most cases, uneducated and lacking any kind of educational certification or licensing. More often than not, they have to refer to an answer key when they grade a prisoner's test.
Prisoners are not allowed to get a grade that's less than 80%. That would make the program look bad. So, the kids are forced to re-take the same old test over and over again until they reach 80% (or until they give up and move on to a different booklet).
They are not doing anything "right". As far as academics go, it looks like WWASP isn't doing anything at all. "
Well I guess you know better than I. I never went to Carlbrook and wasnt aware that they hired people to teach who are uneducated and forced the students to teach themselves, if they can find a book. I find it hard to believe that they force the kids to take the same test over and over until they pass.
Personally I dont think you know what you are talking about. Good qualified teachers dont demand a whole lot of money, any school can find someone to fill the void when it comes to teaching young adults on the highschool level, but this is just my opinion because I wasnt there. But I am sure it is not the final word, someone must know if the teachers have experience and finished college.
Anyone?
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"Education in WWASP facilities is non-existent. The kids have to teach themselves out of books. There are no essays, book reports, presentations, etc. The only "work" these kids do is fill in bubbles in multiple choice tests. The "teachers" are, in most cases, uneducated and lacking any kind of educational certification or licensing. More often than not, they have to refer to an answer key when they grade a prisoner's test.
"Prisoners are not allowed to get a grade that's less than 80%. That would make the program look bad. So, the kids are forced to re-take the same old test over and over again until they reach 80% (or until they give up and move on to a different booklet). "
"They are not doing anything "right". As far as academics go, it looks like WWASP isn't doing anything at all. "
Spring Creek Lodge Academy, Montana:
22 Montana OPI certified teachers, several with MA's, with teaching experience ranging from seven to twenty years. Students who don't master the material do the work again, and continue studying the material until they can demonstrate mastery.
Every English course--and there are five--requires two book reports, on books from the list, which exceeds the minimum grade levels as recommended by the publishers.
So at least one WWASP school is doing some pretty nice work. I know, because I teach there.
In a delightful twist, public schools around the country are finally catching on after extensive research showed that kids should learn stuff instead of being passed along like parts on an assembly line for the convenience of the teachers or administrators, as many public schools have done the last twenty years. Many are now adopting the same requirements.
:wave:
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Oh really, which one? 'cos the last person I know who went to a WWASPS program... actually two, Casa and CCM, says she had to teach herself out of a book. And re-taking the same test until you get at least 80% means... you were able to pass that test, not that you actually grasped the material and learned anything.
"22 Montana OPI certified teachers, several with MA's, with teaching experience ranging from seven to twenty years. Students who don't master the material do the work again, and continue studying the material until they can demonstrate mastery. "
In the real world they dont give do-overs :wink: Eskimo: "If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?"
Priest: "No, not if you did not know."
Eskimo: "Then why did you tell me?"
--Annie Dillard, "Pilgrim at Tinker Creek"
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Spring Creek Lodge Academy, Montana:
22 Montana OPI certified teachers, several with MA's, with teaching experience ranging from seven to twenty years.
Oh, really? Can you show any proof that they actually teach the kids? WWASPS sometimes keeps licensed, qualified teachers on staff, so they could pretend they offer a real academic program. But since that academic program doesn't include any frontal teaching or real instruction at all-- just reading booklet and filling in bubbles-- those teachers aren't really doing all that much.
tudents who don't master the material do the work again, and continue studying the material until they can demonstrate mastery.
Which is exactly what I said. Prisoners who get anything less than 80% are forced to do the exam over and over again until they reach 80% or higher.
Every English course--and there are five--requires two book reports, on books from the list, which exceeds the minimum grade levels as recommended by the publishers.
Again, can you show any proof for that? I've seen WWASPS' academic requirements list, which also lists book reports, but of all the former prisoners I've talked to, not even one mention actually writing book reports. Just the usual "teach yourself from a book and fill in the bubbles". WWASPS just writes this sort of bullshit to fool people who are stupid enough to fall for it.
So at least one WWASP school is doing some pretty nice work. I know, because I teach there.
Well, that explains it. WWASPS often makes sure that its employees are thoroughly indoctrinated in the program's ideology and worship the program just like the program parents.
In a delightful twist, public schools around the country are finally catching on after extensive research showed that kids should learn stuff instead of being passed along like parts on an assembly line for the convenience of the teachers or administrators,
...Which is exactly what WWASPS is doing. The "treatment program" and the "academic program" are both one-size-fits-all. No concern is given to the kids' individual needs. WWASPS is very aware of this, and they themselves have compareed their program to a car assembly factory many times.
But then again, what else can you expect from a cult that poses as a "school". A cult whose sole purpose is to rope in the parents, and reqire both parents and kids in such a way that they believe they've been helped (even though they hacen't) and that they worship the program.
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On 2005-10-14 01:02:00, Anonymous wrote:
Spring Creek Lodge Academy, Montana:
22 Montana OPI certified teachers, several with MA's, with teaching experience ranging from seven to twenty years.
Oh, really? Can you show any proof that they actually teach the kids? WWASPS sometimes keeps licensed, qualified teachers on staff, so they could pretend they offer a real academic program. But since that academic program doesn't include any frontal teaching or real instruction at all-- just reading booklet and filling in bubbles-- those teachers aren't really doing all that much.
tudents who don't master the material do the work again, and continue studying the material until they can demonstrate mastery.
Which is exactly what I said. Prisoners who get anything less than 80% are forced to do the exam over and over again until they reach 80% or higher.
Every English course--and there are five--requires two book reports, on books from the list, which exceeds the minimum grade levels as recommended by the publishers.
Again, can you show any proof for that? I've seen WWASPS' academic requirements list, which also lists book reports, but of all the former prisoners I've talked to, not even one mention actually writing book reports. Just the usual "teach yourself from a book and fill in the bubbles". WWASPS just writes this sort of bullshit to fool people who are stupid enough to fall for it.
So at least one WWASP school is doing some pretty nice work. I know, because I teach there.
Well, that explains it. WWASPS often makes sure that its employees are thoroughly indoctrinated in the program's ideology and worship the program just like the program parents.
In a delightful twist, public schools around the country are finally catching on after extensive research showed that kids should learn stuff instead of being passed along like parts on an assembly line for the convenience of the teachers or administrators,
...Which is exactly what WWASPS is doing. The "treatment program" and the "academic program" are both one-size-fits-all. No concern is given to the kids' individual needs. WWASPS is very aware of this, and they themselves have compareed their program to a car assembly factory many times.
But then again, what else can you expect from a cult that poses as a "school". A cult whose sole purpose is to rope in the parents, and reqire both parents and kids in such a way that they believe they've been helped (even though they hacen't) and that they worship the program.
"
SCL doesn't even use bubble sheets. Ask the former students. There are multiple choice, essay questions, true-false, etc. Most tests have a combination of these, as recommended by educational assessment experts. On math tests, students are required to show all work.
SCL doesn't use booklets. The curriculum is almost identical to the one used in public schools around Montana. And what, by the way, is "frontal teaching?" Is that an educational term I missed in my six years of college?
As far as proof, what works for you? SCL has been fully--not conditionally--accredited since 1996. But that doesn't seem to work as proof. Folks who work there have told you about it, but you don't accept it. So state the proof you'd consider valid. Or go find out for yourself.
The fact is, there's all this complaining about what should happen to make these good schools, and when it becomes clear that's actually the way SCL is, the only reaction is, Oh, that can't be true, you have to prove it. That's a ridiculous response. Prove all the BS claims about poor academics there.
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Hello All,
Been quite a while since I last posted here! I believe it was at the first of the year. I don't know what you may be looking for on the BBS, but I still have access, but only in the alumni forum, I think. I almost died laughing when I saw I was on the alumni list. I mean, please! We drove up and snatched our daughter on a weekend when the main staff is gone, with no advanced warning. We let them know we wouldn't be back. I have no idea why they still send us the magazine or try to contact us from time to time. About 3 mos. ago, I was asked to "teach" at seminar. I never even finished a seminar! Guess they have relaxed their standards. I have lots of thoughts about the things posted, but it would take a book to list them all. All I can say is I have seen it, done it, and still have nightmares! For anyone who remembers me, my daughter, Bri, is doing well. She is home-schooling her self in advanced classes, has a 3.85, works 2 jobs, and plans on graduating a year early. Her credits from the prison were not transferable to any of our area schools, but luckily a very nice private boarding school accepted them. She was an all A student going into the hell hole, and has come out intact. The education she received at the "school" was a farce. No teachers around, licensed or otherwise, a freezing cold shabby building, and asinine school work. I can't speak for all the WWASPS facilities, but hers was a shitty little hell hole that looked like it needed to be torn down, was filthy, and definately was misrepresented to us over the internet and phone. I wish with all my heart I would have listened to my gut feelings instead of focusing on the problems we were dealing with. I was so torn up about the situation ,I really didn't pay much attention to my surroundings,plus, we were only shown the "best" areas, such as the admin. office. It wasn't until I demanded to return 2 mos. later, against their wishes that I saw the whole place. I was very upset. I was in the process of finding another option for us when the Discovery seminar rolled round. This absolutely bizarre experience was all I needed to just go and snatch her. My daughter told me that all the kids dread parent seminars because this is when the parents get sucked into the cult and become fully committed. I told her, as I will tell you all, committed is the important word in this sentence. I have absolutely no idea anyone can be degraded and abused as the parents are, and still want their kids there. All I can say, it is the breeding ground for little junior psycopaths, who society need to look no further than the parents to find the guilty party.
-
:nworthy: :nworthy: :nworthy:
Chi3, thank you for getting your kid out of there! And, thank you for coming back to fornits :silly: How often, or on what system, the Thought Police plugged in any individual wire was guesswork. It was even conceivable that they watched everybody all the time. But at any rate, they could plug in your wire whenever they wanted to.
George Orwell, 1984
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What's BBS?
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Big Bull Shit! No, it is a parent forum where the "cult" parents reassure you that you are doing the very best thing for your child. They give testimony daily to how great WWASPS is. It would be very funny if it weren't so sad. It would blow your mind to read some of the stuff parents write, they will be livid and cussing and saying they think it is all a crock of shit, then about 10 parents swoop down and write novels about how it has reformed their kid, helped their other kid, saved their marriage, and got rid of the dog's worms. After a while of this, and not hearing from your kid, just the staff,(who sees a major change already), parents go to the seminars and are in ecstasy! It is like Stepford Nation.......
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Chi 3
That was was stated.Dont foreget tomentionit works. The BBS definately keeps parents engaged.
Probaly why any negative comments are deleted and the person who wrote is removed and prevented from ever being "invited" back on.
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Well what have they got to hide? If the program works so good, they why do they have to spend so much time and effort putting down dissenting views?
Chi, glad your daughter is doing so well. I sure wish there were more like you.
Were the power of Congress to be established in the latitude contended for, it would subvert the very foundation, and transmute the very nature of the limited Government established by the people of America.
James Madison
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On 2005-11-18 13:57:00, Antigen wrote:
"Well what have they got to hide? If the program works so good, they why do they have to spend so much time and effort putting down dissenting views?
Chi, glad your daughter is doing so well. I sure wish there were more like you.
Were the power of Congress to be established in the latitude contended for, it would subvert the very foundation, and transmute the very nature of the limited Government established by the people of America.
James Madison
"
The programs work "good" because they don't spend time and money supporting the work of their enemies. Say whatever you want, but don't expect me to buy you a microphone. If you had a neighbor you hated, would you be pissy about him not inviting you into his house to bitch at him?
The BBS is to SUPPORT the parents, not trash them. That in no way implies anything to hide. It just implies the programs aren't run by idiots.
:wave:
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On 2005-11-19 09:33:00, Anonymous wrote:
The programs work "good" because they don't spend time and money supporting the work of their enemies. Say whatever you want, but don't expect me to buy you a microphone. If you had a neighbor you hated, would you be pissy about him not inviting you into his house to bitch at him?
The BBS is to SUPPORT the parents, not trash them. That in no way implies anything to hide. It just implies the programs aren't run by idiots.
:wave: "
The programs work well. I think few would dispute that. They turn beautiful individuals into program-spouting robots, preaching the gospel of WWASPS. It's HOW they work that is the central question here. If you beat a dog into submission and he now 'obeys' you, is that considered a success? Same thing with the teens, even if there is no physical abuse. The emotional does the trick just as well.
And how 'bout full disclosure? Shouldn't prospective and active parents have another point of view? What you're descibing sounds like totalism (sp and correct term??). Another cult tactic...
http://www.ex-cult.org/General/lifton-criteria (http://www.ex-cult.org/General/lifton-criteria)
From Dr. Robert J. Lifton for Thought Reform: The psychology of Totalism
5. SACRED SCIENCE
the totalist milieu maintains an aura of sacredness around its basic
doctrine or ideology, holding it as an ultimate moral vision for the
ordering of human existence
questioning or criticizing those basic assumptions is prohibited
a reverence is demanded for the ideology/doctrine, the originators of
the ideology/doctrine, the present bearers of the ideology/doctrine
offers considerable security to young people because it greatly
simplifies the world and answers a contemporary need to combine a
sacred set of dogmatic principles with a claim to a science embodying
the truth about human behavior and human psychology
For more, read here... especially Lifton's, Singer's and Hassan's. The similarities are just plain scary. http://www.ex-cult.org/General/lifton-criteria (http://www.ex-cult.org/General/lifton-criteria)God did not reward men for being honest, generous and brave, but for the act of faith. Without faith, all the so-called virtues were sins. and the men who practiced these virtues, without faith, deserved to suffer eternal pain.
--
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On 2005-11-19 09:33:00, Anonymous wrote:
"
On 2005-11-18 13:57:00, Antigen wrote:
"Well what have they got to hide? If the program works so good, they why do they have to spend so much time and effort putting down dissenting views?
Chi, glad your daughter is doing so well. I sure wish there were more like you.
Were the power of Congress to be established in the latitude contended for, it would subvert the very foundation, and transmute the very nature of the limited Government established by the people of America.
James Madison
"
The programs work "good" because they don't spend time and money supporting the work of their enemies. Say whatever you want, but don't expect me to buy you a microphone. If you had a neighbor you hated, would you be pissy about him not inviting you into his house to bitch at him?
The BBS is to SUPPORT the parents, not trash them. That in no way implies anything to hide. It just implies the programs aren't run by idiots.
:wave: "
"They work good because they dont support their enemies". Huh? Thats all you need to do to 'work'? Why not explain how a program works, or demonstrate such with facts - and no, WWASPS press releases of 90-something% success rate dont appply. Unbaised 3rd party stuff would though, got any?
"The BBS is to SUPPORT the parents, not trash them". Uh, who the fuck would admit what theyre doing wrong to their own customer base? Nobody here is accusing WWASPS of being STUPID, baghead. But, thanks for explaining that theyre not idiots.
Regarding the fact that its nothing more than a regime of mind control that works via milieu control, stressors to cause psychological regression (having constant 24/7 humiliation and fear, the seminars, and turning their parents against them) and a level based system to ensure conformity within their little pocket universe, youve done nothing to address that or discredit that.We meet every day in school a reflection of the national leadership class displaying every indication it has abandoned its fundamental American obligation to raise ordinary people up, becoming instead an overseas transmitter of the original mother ideas of England.
John Taylor Gatto
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My experience has been individual who so musch as QUESTION what they feel may be something odd about why and how come about the program they were booted.
No trahing wa snecessary.Off they went.
Try and tell it to someone who doesnt KNOW the TRUTH.
Pathetic fool.
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QUOTE: Regarding the fact that its nothing more than a regime of mind control that works via milieu control, stressors to cause psychological regression (having constant 24/7 humiliation and fear, the seminars, and turning their parents against them) and a level based system to ensure conformity within their little pocket universe, youve done nothing to address that or discredit that.
Regarding something here, but not facts . . .
Maybe some programs use these tactics, but I've worked at several, and never saw the boogeymen you claim are there.
Mind control: The kids arrive at programs out of control, and the idea is to teach them to create it for themselves. You teach it, demonstrate it, have them practice it, and reinforce it with rewards (In college, we called that "education." Eventually, they learn to do it just because running your own life feels good.
24/7 humiliation and fear: Oh, come on, who the hell has the time, money, or energy to put into methods that don't even work? The programs I've seen find it far easier and more productive to create a safe and compassionate environment for the kids and the staff. Frankly, it's just too much work to be bad guys on this level.
Turning their parents against them: Now that makes perfect sense, doesn't it? Alienate the parents so they feel they're really getting their money's worth.
When kids arrive, their parents are already feeling a lot of tension in the relationship, and the kids are usually outright defiant. Since that's already the case, programs hardly need to expend a lot of time working toward such a dubious goal.
It makes much more sense to include the whole family in the process of growth---Oh, wait a minute, there's those evil seminars again. So if the parents aren't included in the seminars, programs are evil for keeping families apart, and if the parents are included, then the programs are guilty of brainwashing the whole family.
:rofl:
I guess I should apologize for my sarcasm, but man, it's so hard to take this shit seriously! Have you ever even seen a program?! So no, on second thought, no apology.
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On 2005-11-21 09:38:00, Anonymous wrote:
"QUOTE: Regarding the fact that its nothing more than a regime of mind control that works via milieu control, stressors to cause psychological regression (having constant 24/7 humiliation and fear, the seminars, and turning their parents against them) and a level based system to ensure conformity within their little pocket universe, youve done nothing to address that or discredit that.
Regarding something here, but not facts . . .
Maybe some programs use these tactics, but I've worked at several, and never saw the boogeymen you claim are there.
Mind control: The kids arrive at programs out of control, and the idea is to teach them to create it for themselves. You teach it, demonstrate it, have them practice it, and reinforce it with rewards (In college, we called that "education." Eventually, they learn to do it just because running your own life feels good.
24/7 humiliation and fear: Oh, come on, who the hell has the time, money, or energy to put into methods that don't even work? The programs I've seen find it far easier and more productive to create a safe and compassionate environment for the kids and the staff. Frankly, it's just too much work to be bad guys on this level.
Turning their parents against them: Now that makes perfect sense, doesn't it? Alienate the parents so they feel they're really getting their money's worth.
When kids arrive, their parents are already feeling a lot of tension in the relationship, and the kids are usually outright defiant. Since that's already the case, programs hardly need to expend a lot of time working toward such a dubious goal.
It makes much more sense to include the whole family in the process of growth---Oh, wait a minute, there's those evil seminars again. So if the parents aren't included in the seminars, programs are evil for keeping families apart, and if the parents are included, then the programs are guilty of brainwashing the whole family.
:rofl:
I guess I should apologize for my sarcasm, but man, it's so hard to take this shit seriously! Have you ever even seen a program?! So no, on second thought, no apology. "
You dodge so well, you should be a lawyer or politician. Maybe you are.
1. 24/7 humiliation is cheap when those implementing it are upper level clients and not paid staff.
2. Turning the parents against the kids does not mean alienating the parents. You make no sense to anyone capable of critical thought. They convince the parents that their children will lie to them about the way they have been treated. It works and voids the clients' only protection from abuse, since they cannot contact anyone else outside the facility.
3. Posters against programs never condemn parental involvement per se. They condemn these particular seminars as being based on harmful models that were sued out of existence in the 1980s (Lifespring, est). These seminars are designed by the very people that were sued in the 1980s. They are simply running the same scam with different victims.
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QUOTE: Turning the parents against the kids does not mean alienating the parents. You make no sense to anyone capable of critical thought. They convince the parents that their children will lie to them about the way they have been treated. It works and voids the clients' only protection from abuse, since they cannot contact anyone else outside the facility.
But turning the parents against the kids WOULD have the effect of alienating them. Think about this: the kids have already lost all trust. No one could make that happen if the child's behavior didn't support such a conclusion. And those kids lying to Mom and Dad at home don't change overnight and suddenly become honest. No one has to tell Mom and Dad about that, either. There's a very real possibility the kids will lie, but the parents can check it out any time they want. Here's how:
Parents can pop in any time they want. Yep, it's discouraged because frankly, it wasn't working for them to ask how high when the kids said to jump. But the fact is, parents keep all parental rights, and can see or talk to their kids on demand, with or without notice. The guardianship the programs assume includes only the right to make emergency decisions, and never supercedes the parental rights. NEVER.
So maybe they're worried and can't get there right away? They can call CPS or even local law enforcement for a welfare check.
And don't forget (if you're even aware) that in most programs, parents control the kids' mail. They make the call on who can write, and where they'll send letters the kids write.
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On 2005-11-21 18:51:00, Anonymous wrote:
"QUOTE: Turning the parents against the kids does not mean alienating the parents. You make no sense to anyone capable of critical thought. They convince the parents that their children will lie to them about the way they have been treated. It works and voids the clients' only protection from abuse, since they cannot contact anyone else outside the facility.
But turning the parents against the kids WOULD have the effect of alienating them. Think about this: the kids have already lost all trust. No one could make that happen if the child's behavior didn't support such a conclusion. And those kids lying to Mom and Dad at home don't change overnight and suddenly become honest. No one has to tell Mom and Dad about that, either. There's a very real possibility the kids will lie, but the parents can check it out any time they want. Here's how:
Parents can pop in any time they want. Yep, it's discouraged because frankly, it wasn't working for them to ask how high when the kids said to jump. But the fact is, parents keep all parental rights, and can see or talk to their kids on demand, with or without notice. The guardianship the programs assume includes only the right to make emergency decisions, and never supercedes the parental rights. NEVER.
I am sure this is legally true, but not practical. There is no witness to the abuse and the teen with a reputation for lying therefore needs more protection, not less, as the abuser is well aware that the parents don't trust the teen. Also, the abuser can easily convince the parent that the poor kid is lying. Flying to Jamaica to investigate the teen's complaint is also unlikely. Let's face it, it boils down to the word of the teen vs the word of the staff or other teen committing the abuse.
So maybe they're worried and can't get there right away? They can call CPS or even local law enforcement for a welfare check.
In Jamaica, these authorities have no jurisdiction. Even the USA, they cannot investigate private, unlicensed facilities. Law enforcement needs a warrant.
And don't forget (if you're even aware) that in most programs, parents control the kids' mail. They make the call on who can write, and where they'll send letters the kids write. "
Based on reports here and in news articles, a feature of WWASP programs is that the mail (and other forms of contact) are controlled by the program, not the parent. The program monitors the teen's mail and can censor it and even punish the teen for writing negative statements about the program.
I am not convinced there is adequate protection.
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On 2005-11-21 23:58:00, AtomicAnt wrote:
"
On 2005-11-21 18:51:00, Anonymous wrote:
"QUOTE: Turning the parents against the kids does not mean alienating the parents. You make no sense to anyone capable of critical thought. They convince the parents that their children will lie to them about the way they have been treated. It works and voids the clients' only protection from abuse, since they cannot contact anyone else outside the facility.
But turning the parents against the kids WOULD have the effect of alienating them. Think about this: the kids have already lost all trust. No one could make that happen if the child's behavior didn't support such a conclusion. And those kids lying to Mom and Dad at home don't change overnight and suddenly become honest. No one has to tell Mom and Dad about that, either. There's a very real possibility the kids will lie, but the parents can check it out any time they want. Here's how:
Parents can pop in any time they want. Yep, it's discouraged because frankly, it wasn't working for them to ask how high when the kids said to jump. But the fact is, parents keep all parental rights, and can see or talk to their kids on demand, with or without notice. The guardianship the programs assume includes only the right to make emergency decisions, and never supercedes the parental rights. NEVER.
I am sure this is legally true, but not practical. There is no witness to the abuse and the teen with a reputation for lying therefore needs more protection, not less, as the abuser is well aware that the parents don't trust the teen. Also, the abuser can easily convince the parent that the poor kid is lying. Flying to Jamaica to investigate the teen's complaint is also unlikely. Let's face it, it boils down to the word of the teen vs the word of the staff or other teen committing the abuse.
So maybe they're worried and can't get there right away? They can call CPS or even local law enforcement for a welfare check.
In Jamaica, these authorities have no jurisdiction. Even the USA, they cannot investigate private, unlicensed facilities. Law enforcement needs a warrant.
And don't forget (if you're even aware) that in most programs, parents control the kids' mail. They make the call on who can write, and where they'll send letters the kids write. "
Based on reports here and in news articles, a feature of WWASP programs is that the mail (and other forms of contact) are controlled by the program, not the parent. The program monitors the teen's mail and can censor it and even punish the teen for writing negative statements about the program.
I am not convinced there is adequate protection."
I won't respond to comments about Jamaica or other out of country facilities, because I have no experience with that. But please check your facts on law enforcement and other investigations here in the states. Law enforcement can indeed go and ask about the child. They can ask to see them and talk to them. If the program wants some documentation, they can require that, but I have never heard of any doing so.
As far as practicality, that's not the issue for schools here in the USA. Surely if you felt your child was being maltreated, simple practicality would not take priority!
According to the laws of at least three states I looked at (most are available online), CPS has the authority to investigate abuse complaints no matter who owns or runs the school.
And basing your ideas about the mail handling on reports here and in the news is a mistake. Read the policies and procedures of the individual schools.
I am speaking from my own experience. You are absolutely mistaken about how this works.
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No the person is not mistaken. Yor assertion doesnt make it fact.
When I called CPS after my child came home, the relative of the relative who worked there in the remote down in no where land, wasnt interested in what I had to say.
Because you say so doesnt make it true.
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On 2005-11-18 13:57:00, Antigen wrote:
"Well what have they got to hide? If the program works so good, they why do they have to spend so much time and effort putting down dissenting views?
I will ask you to take a look at if it doesn't work, why are the schools full? Why are there forums like this that are intended to discredit what does work? You forget that it's not the program itself that works, it's the out of control teen that has to buy into it. The program is the vehicle not the results. These type of forums serve the purpose by using fear to control.
If a kid doesn't want to buy into it, there are a hundred ways to maintain control of mum and dad...even when they're in the program. Gotta love it.
PHX
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I will ask you to take a look at if it doesn't work, why are the schools full?
because there are plenty of program shills out there, like you, referring other parents in exchange for thousands of dollars in cash or services to these hell-holes. just because something is prevalent, does not make it right.
If a kid doesn't want to buy into it, there are a hundred ways to maintain control of mum and dad...even when they're in the program.
you are insane. the control goes ONE way. the parents are under control by their own unjusitified fears... only to be played upon by WWASP officials.. such as yourself. go back to your hole, troll.
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WWASP is a cult, a very profitable one. There is no debate, other than what we should do to shut these places down. Arguing the legality, or morality of these programs with programmies is a waste of time. A complete waste of time. At least for those who lived it, because we know. Obviously, the program supporters do not. If they do, then they are brainwashed, like in any cult. Shut the cult down!!! :evil:
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I won't respond to comments about Jamaica or other out of country facilities, because I have no experience with that. But please check your facts on law enforcement and other investigations here in the states. Law enforcement can indeed go and ask about the child. They can ask to see them and talk to them. If the program wants some documentation, they can require that, but I have never heard of any doing so.
I already have, and while the laws do vary from state to state, no, law enforcement cannot just waltz onto private property and start questioning juveniles. They need a warrant.
Just go and read the headlines about the boy who killed his 14-year-old girlfriend's parents in PA. The couple fled to IN. IN police were not permitted to interview the girl because IN law says minors can only be interviewed while their parent or guardian are present.
As far as practicality, that's not the issue for schools here in the USA. Surely if you felt your child was being maltreated, simple practicality would not take priority!
How can you say this? Utah is very far away from New Jersey or Virginia.
According to the laws of at least three states I looked at (most are available online), CPS has the authority to investigate abuse complaints no matter who owns or runs the school.
That's right. Someone has to file a complaint. The incarcerated teen is not permitted this basic protection.
And basing your ideas about the mail handling on reports here and in the news is a mistake. Read the policies and procedures of the individual schools.
My 'ideas' about the mail are taken from WWASPS own contract. I quote from one:
Due to the potential harm that certain mail could cause your child or progress, we as legal guardians (having both legal an physical custody) direct and authorize Tranquility Bay and its staff to monitor all outgoing and incoming mail.
They are all pretty much the same.
Certainly, this has a chilling effect on what a client will write and opens the door for punishing negative remarks or abuse allegations.
I am speaking from my own experience. You are absolutely mistaken about how this works.
As parent, client, or staff? Just curious.
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These programs that have been created to "better your children" are full of shit. there are things that i got out of the program but i have to say that i wish i could erase them. Starting day one I learned the key to success, which was manipulation. I knew if i could make friends and learn how to make people think i was ok and getting better the sooner i was going home. little did i know by faking it until i made it would ruin my life. I dont know how to be myself anymore. Every situation i get myself in I automatically think on how to manipulate the situation. Everyday i am afraid that someone might find out that i am empty inside. This place took everything from(my deepest secrets, the bad experiences that drove my life, my passions) now all i have is this unmanagable apathy towords life. sometimes i think the thing that will help me is to contact some of my friends i met there but they are nowhere to be found because fucked up parents dont want their kids names to be mentioned. i have a message to you all. FUCK YOU!!!! see i am a depressive and when everything was taken out of me, i realized that i had to face life. well the truth is that i wasnt ready to face life quite so fast and in return that was even more depressing. well having that said i can no longer continue with this post. I want people to respond and in doing so you will get an answer for any question you may have and untill next time......good day
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My heart goes out to you and I hope that you are able to find your way back to yourself. Have you communicated with KAT on the Mission Mountain Thread? She had a really rough time of it too, and might have some ideas for you on where you can turn for some real help. In time you will be able to heal the spirit those despicable people so badly damaged. I can tell it is still in there because you still have spunk and passion, and are able to articulate the problems they caused you very well. Communicate with others who have been been through it, even if they are from different programs. Best of luck to you.
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I'm sorry you're having such a hard time. I've been there a few times myself. don't know who long you'v been "out", but once you really begin to realize what happened to you sometimes the pain and anger get overwhelming. All I can say is it does pass. Dont' get me wrong, it comes back again but it seems like its a little easier to deal with each time.
When I get really bad like that I put in my fav. cd and go for walk on the beach. Sound cliche, but more than half the time it settles me enough to start again.It is the absolute right of the state to supervise the formation of public opinion.
--Joseph Goebbels
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On 2005-11-23 15:05:00, IDunno wrote:
"These programs that have been created to "better your children" are full of shit. there are things that i got out of the program but i have to say that i wish i could erase them. Starting day one I learned the key to success, which was manipulation. I knew if i could make friends and learn how to make people think i was ok and getting better the sooner i was going home. little did i know by faking it until i made it would ruin my life. I dont know how to be myself anymore. Every situation i get myself in I automatically think on how to manipulate the situation. Everyday i am afraid that someone might find out that i am empty inside. This place took everything from(my deepest secrets, the bad experiences that drove my life, my passions) now all i have is this unmanagable apathy towords life. sometimes i think the thing that will help me is to contact some of my friends i met there but they are nowhere to be found because fucked up parents dont want their kids names to be mentioned. i have a message to you all. FUCK YOU!!!! see i am a depressive and when everything was taken out of me, i realized that i had to face life. well the truth is that i wasnt ready to face life quite so fast and in return that was even more depressing. well having that said i can no longer continue with this post. I want people to respond and in doing so you will get an answer for any question you may have and untill next time......good day"
Do you ever wonder what your life would be like if you hadn't faked it? You even admitted that you weren't ready to leave (face life) quite so fast, so you see, it was you that created the place you are in right now. Have you ever thought of going to the adult seminars and starting over, except this time be real with yourself and not fake your way in life for someone else's benefit. Do it for yourself this time.
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How the fuck did anyone get through life without any "rehabs", "life-seminars" "self-help this, self help that". Damn people. WAKE THE FUCK UP!!!!! You've been duped for YEARS!!!!!
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Idunno, don't listen to the program troll.
I know just how you feel. Cayo Hueso is right. It does pass. I think if there's one thing I would do differently, it would be to try harder to pick up old plans. I never even remembered that I had wanted to hike the Apalachian trail till I was already raising kids. Never gotten the chance since, either. What sort of things did you dream about doing before the Program?Nothing can be more contrary to religion and the clergy than reason and common sense.
--Francois Marie Arouet "Voltaire", French author and playwright
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On 2005-11-23 18:07:00, Anonymous wrote:
Do you ever wonder what your life would be like if you hadn't faked it? You even admitted that you weren't ready to leave (face life) quite so fast, so you see, it was you that created the place you are in right now. Have you ever thought of going to the adult seminars and starting over, except this time be real with yourself and not fake your way in life for someone else's benefit. Do it for yourself this time. "
Damn! Do you even hear yourself?? This kid is talking about all the damage that was done in there, all the self doubt that was created and you come back with typical 'program-speak'. "You didn't really apply your program." Got news for ya darlin' the program is FUCKED from the beginning. How can people think they can take these kids and turn them into stepcrafting, good little republican robots?????The inspiration of the Bible depends on the ignorance of the person who reads it.
--Robert G. Ingersoll, American politician and lecturer
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On 2005-11-23 18:15:00, Antigen wrote:
I think if there's one thing I would do differently, it would be to try harder to pick up old plans. I never even remembered that I had wanted to hike the Apalachian trail till I was already raising kids. Never gotten the chance since, either. What sort of things did you dream about doing before the Program"
Excellent idea!!! Everytime we took the kids to the keys and let them use the hookah (no, not that hookah) we came back and talked for hours about what we had seen. That's kinda what I meant about walking on the beach. It doesn't solve everything, but that's my sancuary. It helps me put thigns into perspective. Find something like that of yours, whatever it is. If it's something you enjoy doin g now, great. iF its somethingn you always dreamed about but felt it was out of your reach......IT'S NOT!!!!!!!!!! Not by a long shot. Hands that help are far better then lips that pray.
--Robert G. Ingersoll, American politician and lecturer
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THe BBS is up and running just fine. Only thing they removed was the general discussion fourm.
I have a son enrolled at Cross Creek, and I agree that the 'program speak' makes me insane; but I know that the people directly in contact with my son are legit and making a diference in his life.
I will bring him home when I hear in his voice that he is feeling better about himself. He is close, I am not concerned with him completing the program or graduating CC persay, but I know he needed the interuption in his self distructive behaviors. :eek:
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Do you ever wonder what your life would be like if you hadn't faked it? You even admitted that you weren't ready to leave (face life) quite so fast, so you see, it was you that created the place you are in right now. Have you ever thought of going to the adult seminars and starting over, except this time be real with yourself and not fake your way in life for someone else's benefit. Do it for yourself this time.
:wstupid:
Don't these program people just make ya wanna puke?!?!?
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but I know that the people directly in contact with my son are legit and making a diference in his life.
You're wrong about that.
I will bring him home when I hear in his voice that he is feeling better about himself.
This will only happen after you bring him home, and years later after his hellish ordeal implemented by you.
The program speak should be a big red flag!
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On 2005-11-23 20:53:00, Anonymous wrote:
I will bring him home when I hear in his voice that he is feeling better about himself.
The beating will continue until the crying stops.There are not enough jails, not enough policemen, not enough courts to enforce a law not supported by the people.
-- HUBERT H. HUMPHREY, speech (1965)
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Have you been there? If not then do not spout! He is not being beaten!
He was on a self destructive path to suicide I chose to stand up for his life....he gets that and has thanked me for saving him from himself....I am hoping to hjave him home by Christmas. :smile:
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he gets that and has thanked me for saving him from himself
Well... duh. You have spent thousands of dollars per month berating that into his psyche by keeping him there. You are an all-too typical program parent. So typical, I wonder if you are for real.
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On 2005-11-23 20:53:00, Anonymous wrote:
"THe BBS is up and running just fine. Only thing they removed was the general discussion fourm.
I have a son enrolled at Cross Creek, and I agree that the 'program speak' makes me insane; but I know that the people directly in contact with my son are legit and making a diference in his life.
I will bring him home when I hear in his voice that he is feeling better about himself. He is close, I am not concerned with him completing the program or graduating CC persay, but I know he needed the interuption in his self distructive behaviors. :eek: "
I feel sorry for you mister, you will never be able to hear in your childs voice that he is ready. according to the program he isnt ready until he fijnishes the program!
I have a better idea that might make some sense. It wasnt until my father sent me to europe by myself that i finally started to understand my part in life. i was all by myself and the only thing i had was the internet and smarts i recieved from my parents. after all they are the ones who raised me and taught me everything i know. directly and indirectly, but they thought they failed because i chose not to use it and rebel. nows the time to take action, take the money you are throwing away and let your kid take a stand in his life. you are just making it tougher for him. being trapped in the middle of the woods will not make him feel like you love him. i live in san diego and very willings to take time to talk with you or your son. whatever i can do to get your kid on the right path in life. you want to know what happened to me when i returned home? My name is Ivan and i look forward to your response.
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Mister you talk the program talk. Open your eyes and ears.
He's thanking you because
1. He is upper level playing the part or
2. The staff is hovering over his shoulder during his phone time withg his parents.
Good luck mister. Pray the kid doesnt spiral dive when he gets home. Most do.......THAT you can thank th program for.
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In the seminars and at the facilities we were'nt allowed to rebuttal anything. We had to take in the "feedback" and were not allowed to disagree with it under any circumstance. Why can't Mr. Kay do the same. This is feedback for him and everyone who says anything against him is attacked and discredited. Hey mr. Kay if it does'nt apply let it fly. Is'nt that what we were taught in the seminars? Or have'nt you attended one?
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Oh My, Oh My! First off I am sorry Ivan you went through such a tough time. My daughter did, too. She wasn't there long, but it took her awhile to come to terms with her anger over it all. Good luck, let us know if we can help you in some way.
To the trolls: When you bring your child there you are encouraged to join the BBS a.s.a.p. It is actually part of your first "homework" as a parent. If you do not do this work, you are not allowed to advance further. I went there thinking I would get the true story and meet other parents to share with. Instead, it was a daily love story written by the culties who sweep down on you if you express any doubts or complaints. They testify to you how terribly important this is to your child's survival and that he/she will never make it w/o being there. Then they tell you that you are a wonderful parent for giving your child this "gift" of life. Tell that to Ivan and all the other of people who are or have been struggling with themselves over what happened to them. I went back on the BBS a few weeks back and read for awhile. Guess what? It is still the same old group of parents on there that have been for years. I noticed that some of the diehards whose children have been there for years and supposedly "graduated", had re-enrolled their kids! Seems they just couldn't hack it in the real world. I guess they will continue this cycle until the kid gets 18. By the way, my daughter works in a clothing store at the mall, and she noticed someone shoplifting the other day. Turned out to be one of the girls she was with at the cult. She had been there 3 years!!!! She also told me that she has had contact with a few others she met there, and they are wilder now than they were when they went in. HMMMMMMMMM! As far as popping in to see your child, maybe at some places, but where we were, was a no go. We went up last year at Christmas to drop off presents for our daughter, and they would not even let me look out the window at her going to lunch! I begged to see her. They brought a disenrollment form to me and said that was the only way I could. I wish more than anything I wouldn't have waited the 3 weeks I did and signed it on the spot. The mail that my daughter sent me was always read. If she was negative in any way, she lost privileges. Considering she couldn't even shave her legs for nearly 3 mos., she was always scared to chance it. How many kids are badly abused and are afraid to say anything for fear of the consequences????? This pisses me off so badly! I have to live everyday with the knowledge of my mistake placing her there, I can't believe you think these places are honest and care for the kids. Bullshit! It is allll about the money. :flame:
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I have yet to meet anyone who hasn't relapsed at least once or moved on to harder drugs since the program. I am talking about graduates only.
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SO, how do I get into their bulletin board and read what they are saying??????????? :tup: :tup: :tup: