Fornits
Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => The Seed Discussion Forum => Topic started by: John Underwood on September 02, 2005, 01:45:00 PM
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Defendant: The Seed
Issue: Good v. Bad
The problem with the trial we have going on here is that there is no judge, there is no jury. What we have is a continuous loop containing arguments and testimony from both sides. Though some questions may be answered and minor details cleared up, there is no resolution (verdict) in sight, nor will there ever be to the satisfaction of everyone.
The architecture (and intent) of this site is designed with the Seed as defendant. If we are going to continue to hold court, why shouldn?t it be the other way? Why shouldn?t The Seed be the complainant?
Why did you fail The Seed? What did you fail to do? Why did you fail your parents? Why did you fail yourself? Why didn?t you benefit when so many did? What was (is) lacking in you that made The Seed experience was so negative, while others only have positive memories?
How many people?s lives have you personally destroyed who may have been helped at The Seed, but the influence of your attitude prevented them from ever having a chance?
Do you believe you?re are God, so omniscient that you can answer the previous question with complete confidence? Or are you so arrogant that you just don?t care? Have you failed at everything? Have you been successful when no self-examination is required? Have you failed when responsibilities charged to you were not to your liking? Why did you allow your thinking to set you up for failure from day one? Why are you still failing to comprehend? Why do you choose to point your fingers at others instead of yourself? Are you living in such denial, buried in false pride that you fear swallowing it might lead to asphyxiation? Is separating yourself now from the good The Seed did self-affirming, ego satiating? Are you capable or willing to honestly answer (to yourself) these questions today?
Maybe the most important question is, why are you even here? ...to engage in some contrived pseudointellectual debate that exists only for its own sake? Are you ego driven, is jealously a motive, do you ever, ever take time to challenge your own thinking? And finally, if awareness, enlightenment can simply be gained from life (as so many of you propose), without the intervention of a prominent catalyst, how do you explain the state of the people, the nations, the condition of planet earth today?
Okay, enough of this. There were a few questions I found in reading recent posts that I would like to attempt to answer. The program lasted as long as it lasted. Initially, two weeks as a newcomer, three months as an oldcomer. (Not a lot of those) For those sent by the court, two weeks as a newcomer, six months as an oldcomer. (A few more of these met the time frame)
Someone asked if I was asking for forgiveness because of the Socrates quote. I?m not asking anything, except the aforementioned questions. This is a principle that I believe in applying to my own life. (And no, I?m not in the one-hundred percentile group, obviously; if I have days where I?m in the upper 80s, I feel pretty good, they?re not common, but I?m still working at it, everyday, and getting better, of course that?s always been the case) Coercion! Of course there was coercion, we wanted people to stay. As for those 18 and over without court order, we could not make them stay, contrary to what has been stated here. We would, however, attempt to have the person?s parents intercede. If this worked they stayed, if it didn?t they were gone. To answer another question, living in Broward County, my path has crossed maybe 200, give or take a few, former Seedlings in the past 25 years. As I related to GregL on the phone, only one had anything negative to say to me. He chose to get in my face, spouting not so nice things, at a softball game about 15 years ago, I remembered him well and was not surprised. One out of 200 or so, and he was drunk at the time. ?Get out of your head,? simply was/is synonymous with ?Wake up and smell the flowers,? though I gather some of you had a problem staying awake period.
As I told GregL, I will try and post on this site occasionally and answer legitimate questions where genuine information gaps exist. Becoming a part of the day to day debate, I just cannot do, don?t need to. Finally, I reread my two initial posts today and found that many of the answers to questions continuing to be asked I?ve already answered.
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There is no trial going on. That's just your way of framing the situation, John. It's a discussion, and you are merely being asked to answer for yourself in a situation where you don't hold the whip. Of course the frequency and quality of your participation are up to you. (Maybe a few of us WOULD like to lock you in a room for a few weeks, and deprive you of sleep, and shout in your face, etc. but alas . . .)
Your questions above are transparent diversions, and insulting ones. "Why did you fail yourself, your parents, the Seed?" etc. Who failed? What do you mean by failed? Failed what? Does the fact that many of us look back on the Seed with anger indicate that we "failed"? That's a heck of an assumption. "How many people?s lives have you personally destroyed who may have been helped at The Seed, but the influence of your attitude prevented them from ever having a chance?"
??? Gosh. Now we're the ones who've destroyed lives? With our ATTITUDES? Boy are we powerful!
"And finally, if awareness, enlightenment can simply be gained from life (as so many of you propose), without the intervention of a prominent catalyst, how do you explain the state of the people, the nations, the condition of planet earth today?"
Good grief. The intervention of a prominent catalyst???
Okay, you did ask one valid question. What are we doing here in this forum? Why are we here? I can answer that one for myself, but it's only my own answer. (Unlike the Seed, I don't assume--Godlike--that my answer is everyone's answer.) First, I'll admit I don't altogether know the complete answer. But for what it's worth: The Seed was a deep trauma in my life. I feel healed from it, but there's a way in which it still fascinates me, because it was such a powerfully negative experience. Having been away from Florida since '79, I think back to the Seed but I don't have any contact with anyone else who went through it, so it's interesting to compare notes, and especially fascinating to see what YOU or any other staff member might have to say.
Every time you post, I find it rather enlightening frankly. So thanks for posting. Your rambling, thunderous, self-righteous post above speaks volumes.
Oh, and I'll give you credit for answering one question straight on, the one about how do you know how many kids benefitted vs. how many didn't. You say you've run into about 200 grateful Seed graduates over the years. Fine. Presuming that's true, it's a good answer. But honestly, John, I don't trust anything you say. For example:
"The program lasted as long as it lasted. Initially, two weeks as a newcomer, three months as an oldcomer. (Not a lot of those) For those sent by the court, two weeks as a newcomer, six months as an oldcomer." Come on, man. Those were MINIMUM times, not fixed schedules. But maybe that was just a typo or something . . .
okay enough of this. gotta go.
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Wow, John, my stomach crawls when I read your post. Oy vey...
No, I am quite successful. I am a good member of my family, community and am a parent myself now. And I was a super-loyal, full time Seed kid for 7 years, pal. So...
What I am here for is to fully understand an experience which informed my life from age 19 t0 26, representing one third of my life and all of my early adulthood. This is the same scrutiny I applied to examining my (traumatic) childhood. Remember, Socrates, and the unexamined life?
Woe to all who disagree with you. I have put The Seed on trial in my heart every day. Sure, there are partisan posters on this site, probably actually a near balance. What is wrong with that?
There are Seed folks posting here that want to discuss their experiences WITHOUT a controlling central force or whatever you called that (what are you talking about?)
Please, go read George Orwell, OK? Please work to develop a sense of irony and nuance...jeez...
Love ya!
Walter
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quote..................
"Defendant: The Seed
Issue: Good v. Bad
The problem with the trial we have going on here is that there is no judge, there is no jury. What we have is a continuous loop containing arguments and testimony from both sides. Though some questions may be answered and minor details cleared up, there is no resolution (verdict) in sight, nor will there ever be to the satisfaction of everyone."
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Good vs. Bad? Hey, you forgot 'The Ugly'! :grin:
I agree. I've studied comparative religion for years and frequented internet message boards of various faiths and smaller cultic groups and the discussion here is very similar to what goes on there. I don't think this is a coincidence. Like marxist communism, the Seed seems to function as a secular religion for many. Though there was no emphasis upon or discussion of the nature of God or eternal life, the Seed did try to fill many areas that we usually regard as religious. It claimed to provide a meaning & purpose to life and promoted a specific set of beliefs about what is good vs. bad. Just as in religious debates between believers or nonbelievers, there is no resolution. In our case, it's more like believers vs apostates. These sorts of debates tend to be even nastier. For instance, Mormons tend to be more forgiving of other religions but really harsh on former mormons. Same with most other groups. The very existence of those who believed but fell away from the faith constitutes a strong source of doubt and threat to the believers. Those who reject some or all aspects of the program are apostates. Many evangelical christians that I've observed, when confronted with those who claim that they were once born-again and saved, but are now atheists or muslims, etc. tend to respond that those who converted were not 'really' born again, were not 'true' christians and not actually saved. Compare this to your suggestion that anyone who is critical of the Seed "Just didn't get it". From my own reading here for the past 2 or 3 years, I suspect the majority here are not junkies or alcoholics. Most of the posters here are not Seed screw-ups or those that failed to complete their program. Most of us seem to be graduates of the Seed.
I don't think it's a case of Good vs. Bad though. If you read carefully, nearly everyone here...even the most venom spewing critics...have stated that there were good aspects to the program. Similarly, even the most forceful defenders of the Seed (such as yourself) have stated that there were bad aspects. If you conclude that anyone here who has any criticism of the program on any level at any time are part of the 'seed is bad' group...you might consider whether Lybbi or Art or other staff might put you in that category as well due to your own criticism and disagreement with them. My own views and evaluation of the program is an open and on-going process. My initial doubts and problems emerged while I was still an oldcomer and have evolved over time. I'm open to anything anyone has to say about it, good or bad.
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"The architecture (and intent) of this site is designed with the Seed as defendant. If we are going to continue to hold court, why shouldn?t it be the other way? Why shouldn?t The Seed be the complainant"
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I assume you mean the intent of Ginger and Greg in creating & hosting the site. I don't think anyone is holding court either. I have no idea why this metaphor springs to your mind...other than perhaps reading here makes you feel personally prosecuted and arouses the need to defend yourself. I confess I didn't really expect that sort of reaction from you though. It's more understandable from someone that spent 20 or 30 years giving their life to the program like Lauderdale. Like many of your fellow graduates on this site, you broke with the program too. You disagreed with certain points and chose to leave years ago. Given this, I am surprised that you still identify with the program so much that you feel personally attacked by any criticism of it. Being uninvolved with the Seed for so many years, I would have guessed would give you more objectivity or at least the ability to bear crticism of the program without needing to lash out as you have.
You might not realize it, but many here are torn between handling you with kid gloves and responding actively to your challenges. Why? Many of us would be happy to hear your side and your version of events. Some fear any challenge might cause you to leave. You were in a very privileged position in terms of both time (you were in the very early Seed) and control (you, along with lybbi seemed to act as managers of the seed, with art as owner / founder)and have a unique perspective.
Most here have treated you with respect. Greg has even created a folder where you can answer questions or offer your views without fear of being personally attacked or challenged. (Even Ginger doesn't get a folder like that! :grin: ) In return, you respond with more name-calling, comparing yourself to others, insults, broad, unfounded assumptions and hyperbole. While leaving those questions untouched. Did I dream it or didn't we use to have raps about why we compared ourselves to others?
Perhaps we all started on the wrong foot in some way. Before posting again, take a deep breath. Try to refrain from trying to address the entire site as if we were one homogenous 'them' vs. you. If you would address any of us on a one to one basis & stick to criticizing or debating ideas offered here rather than a series of ad-hominem attacks, you might find that it isn't so unpleasant and others might return the consideration.
There's another option that many strongly pro-Seed graduates that read here might seriously consider. You could easily start your own on-line group. It doesn't have to be as sophisticated as the fornits site. I think MSN, Yahoo and other portals offer web space for private message boards for little or no cost. I've seen crazy sounding groups listed...left-handed dyslexic republican mothers against rap, maybe? All of you could agree to only let pro-seed people join and delete any content you dislike. Why not? You would not have to read any dissenting views or attacks against the seed. No talk of korean brainwashing or cults. You could even have raps of a sort. (a chat room might be better for that come to think of it.) It could all be positve and uplifting. Endless talks about all the good you've done and people you helped. You could feel free to compare yourselves and talk derisively about all those druggie assholes and all the people 'out there' that just aren't as good as you that just don't get it...especially those failures over on fornits! I'm only half kidding here. That does seem to be what some of you want or expect here. Only one side presented, no dissension, no disagreement. Give the idea a try and see what develops. See how long it takes for the same us vs. them divisions to begin to spring up within your clique...before a few posters decide to break away and start their own group...or before your leaders begin to disagree amongst themselves and leave.
Or we could just stop dividing ourselves up inwardly along those lines here and just listen to each other without self-righteous condemnation of 'those' pro-seed zombies and 'those' anti-seed losers.
Personally, I like the pro and con views here. The disagreeing views can be instructive as long as we remember they're just views. From my pov, the truth has no need of being protected from dissent or criticism. It doesn't need censorhip. It is good to question, to look without fear of where the inquiry may take you. The rest of what you wrote (the questions) could easily be turned back to their source as well. Especially:
"Why are you still failing to comprehend? Why do you choose to point your fingers at others instead of yourself? Are you living in such denial, buried in false pride that you fear swallowing it might lead to asphyxiation?"
Myself and others have answered the
question 'why are you here' numerous times. Just because you dislike or disagree with the answer, doesn't mean it wasn't addressed.
BTW, as to the Socrates quote, nearly everyone here that has offered any disagreement with the program has at some point made it plain that they have forgiven any perceived wrongs connected with the seed. Maybe you just need to forgive yourself.
[ This Message was edited by: marshall on 2005-09-02 17:09 ]
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Remember the Dr. Kaiser song that you created? Most of the group was in the building...seems it may have been close to christmas. Art was out front doing his schtick and he called you (John) from the back. Art explained that you'd written a song about the Seed's official psychiatrist to be sung to the tune of the old Armour hotdog song / commercial. I still recall the look on your face when he asked you to sing it for everyone. Seemed like a combinaton of embarrassment and disgust that art would ask such a thing. I remember the song:
Kaiser
Dr Kaiser
What kind of kids like Dr. Kaiser?
Fat kids, skinny kids, kids that climb on rocks
Tough kids, sissy kids
Even kids with crooked cocks
love Kaiser
Dr Kaiser
The Doc kids love to bite!
I'd been on the program less than a month and we were outside sitting on the ground. You were leading a rap and it turned to how lazy we were before theseed and how much better we feel about ourselves now that we're more active. I raised my hand and related. I went on about how lazy I was and how bad that made me feel physically from getting no exercise. Then the kicker, I went on to say how much better I'd felt after a few weeks spent in prison! How the cutting bushes and digging ditches made me feel so much better. Nearly everyone in the group raised their hand to tell me where I was at...probably because nothing pre-seed was ever supposed to be good...especially not prison, fer crisake. You motioned for everyone to put their hands down and proceeded to support what I'd said as being true. Maybe you could relate from your own time in Raiford?
Anyway, I was grateful. I can't recall a single instance where you were unkind or insensitive to me. None of my disagreement springs from any personal animosity. It IS possible to disagree with people without wanting to bomb them to dust, send them to hell, villify them as 'other' or 'those people', or even dislike them. You shouldn't take any of the stuff you read here so personally. That might help you actually examine whether any of it has any validity. Maybe it doesn't. Maybe anyone that criticizes or finds fault with any aspect of the program is as deluded as you assert. Or maybe not. The sort of self-examination that you proposed might be profitable to all of us...no exceptions Take care.
[ This Message was edited by: marshall on 2005-09-02 17:00 ]
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The Seed had an official psychiatrist? What did Dr. Kaiser do?
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They're all ungrateful and pussies.
I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life, I absenteed myself from Christian assemblies.
--Benjamin Franklin, American Founding Father and inventor
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Dear Marc and a little for Walter, ?hell, anyone who wants to bother reading it,
This may be my last post without first hiring an interpreter, an editor of sorts, to rewrite what I say, so that is more easily understood by some of you. The irony here of course is that after being called arrogant, condescending, etc. you put be in a position where it is necessary for me to write an analysis of my post so that you may understand it. So here goes, read slow if you must. This is sarcastic.
The questions in the above post were not meant to be taken literally. They were an attempt (and a very mild, gentle one at that) to make the point that anything or anyone put under the scrutiny The Seed, myself and others are put under here, probably wouldn?t fair very well, and that most stories have, at a minimum, two sides. And yes, I do see them even if I happen to be standing on only one, ?one and a half, maybe. This is not sarcastic.
Transparent diversions? - They?re obviously not transparent enough or I wouldn?t be writing this. This is sarcastic.
Irony?, nuance?, I know for myself that just because I fail to always see things, it doesn?t necessarily mean they?re not there, but don?t tell me what I do see isn?t there. Read more closely. This is a little sarcastic.
And George Orwell? I hope you aren?t referring to Animal House, appropriate as that may be. Damn, I wish I hadn?t said that. Now I?ll have to write a completely new post to explain what that means. This is sarcastic.
Of course those were minimum times I mentioned, just what exactly did you think ??lasted as long as it lasted,? ?Not a lot of those,? and ?A few more of these met the time frame,? meant? This is not sarcastic.
This is why I need to hire an interpreter to assist some of you. This is sarcastic.
Thunderous, Righteous? I think I like that, thanks. (I?ll get back to you about whether or not this is sarcastic)
Locked in a room, sleep deprived, yelled at ? been there done that more than once.
The last time was 34 ½ years ago, cold turkey kicking a pretty substantial heroin habit in solitary confinement on a frigid concrete floor in, what was then a fairly well known, unit of the jail called the dungeon. No bed, no lights, no food, only the cops who would come around once or twice a day to laugh and kick you just to make sure you weren?t dead. This is not sarcastic.
?and the casual manner words like trauma, torture are used to describe The Seed experience?
Never mind, if sitting in a drug rehab for a few months, a year, ?whatever, traumatized you, then I confess, I can?t relate, I can try to empathize, but the fragility of your delicate psyche is truly something beyond my comprehension. A bad experience, maybe, one you wish you never had, okay. This is not sarcastic.
I?m sure that I omitted a few points, but not to worry, next time I?ll have the nine year-old that lives next door come over and put my thoughts into his words. His name?s Kevin, a great kid that I believe you?ll find very helpful. This is sarcastic (I hope).
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Did I just read my post and say Animal House? Yes I did. Farm not House, though now that I think about it, could this be a Freudian Slip?
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Marshall,
How can you expect the composer of the Dr. Kaiser song not to be a little sarcastic?
I just read your post and there is a lot I would like to say in response, but not tonight. Too damn tired, ...but I will.
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hey Marshall, Love your thoughtful posts, but just a small personal note of disagreement. I do think of myself as entirely anti-Seed, but I hardly think I've been "spewing venom." That is to say, I do have an absolute position here. I think the Seed stunk and there was no excuse for it. I agree that it's fine to see the good and the bad and ugly, and to have mixed feelings, and life usually comes to us in ambiguous colors. But that doesn't mean we have to have mixed feelings about everything. I did share long ago that a couple of staff members--Clay in particular--were very kind. There were a number of kind human deeds I witnessed in the Seed. Kindness can happen anywhere. But the institution itself . . . I think it was evil. Is that venomous?
As for John's last post, whew! John, you're so complex and deep. (Sarcastic.) When you asked "Why did you fail The Seed? What did you fail to do? Why did you fail your parents? Why did you fail yourself? Why didn?t you benefit when so many did?" were these questions "not meant to be taken literally"? Wow, no wonder I didn't "get it" in the Seed! I still don't get it!
When you asked "Are you living in such denial, buried in false pride that you fear swallowing it might lead to asphyxiation? Is separating yourself now from the good The Seed did self-affirming, ego satiating?" was this your "very mild, gentle attempt" to make a point? (Perhaps, come to think of it, it is mild and gentle compared to the language used in the Seed, but that wouldn't look so good in print, would it?)
And was THIS one sarcastic???
"And finally, if awareness, enlightenment can simply be gained from life (as so many of you propose), without the intervention of a prominent catalyst, how do you explain the state of the people, the nations, the condition of planet earth today?"
Is the "prominent catalyst" alluded to above The Seed, God, or . . . perhaps yourself? I mean, as you can see, I'm lost. There are just so many levels to your depth and subtlety that escape me entirely.
I can't help but suspect you were suggesting that the Seed might have actually "saved the world" had it flourished. WERE YOU???
Your answer to the question of whether or not coercion can truly be a method of "enlightenment" or "raising awareness" was this gem:
"Of course there was coercion, we wanted people to stay."
Wow, that is deep! Or was it sarcastic?
Yes, my delicate psyche was traumatized by the Seed. You call it "sitting in a drug rehab for a few months, a year, ?whatever." Yeah, sure. Come to think of it, that's all it was. I just had to sit around for a while. (Sarcastic.)
Hey John, I did raise sleep deprivation and mind control (constant haranguing, "Get out of your head!" "What are you thinking!" etc. etc. . . . the disallowance of a moment's private reflection) as salient issues. Will you ever address them, I wonder?
Oh wait a minute, you did address them, very succinctly:
"?Get out of your head,? simply was/is synonymous with ?Wake up and smell the flowers,? though I gather some of you had a problem staying awake period."
Yeah, what was wrong with some of us, that we couldn't stay awake? What was our PROBLEM? Hm.
As for the locked room and your heroin habit, yeah, I get it now. It sounds like The Seed was made for people like you, who had no life, who really did need a whole new ego structure in order to survive. If everyone who came to the Seed had been that desperate, perhaps it would have been a good thing.
But did you also have a desperate need to see all the high school "druggies" in the same light you saw yourself? (not sarcastic)
Finally, John, I keep wondering . . . what exactly WAS the "the potential of The Seed, the dream" that you refered to in your initial post to this site? Seeds all over the world, sledgehammering "brotherly love and be your own best friend" into unwilling adolescents? Or perhaps the whole world would have BEEN the Seed? People power tripping each other all over the place, punctuated by sanctimonious speeches about how much love they feel?
Yeah. I wasn't feeling very angry at you personally, John, as I said earlier, before you posted. But your posts do piss me off. Congratulations. Your own denial goes soooo deep. I doubt anything anyone writes here will ever get underneath it.
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As for applying the same level of scrutiny to ourselves that we do to the Seed, I don't think this is the forum for it. That "point" is a red herring. We apply scrutiny to our own selves in the privacy of our own lives, within ourselves and with our loved ones. This page is about the Seed; therefore that's what we're talking about.
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marcwordssmith,
It's easy to to rip people apart 30 something years ago. Get over John Underwood, he was just a very young man at the time helping people,
doing what he thought was right. You know exactly what " get out of your head meant" staying out of the shit, it meant no more and no less. John Underwood was just a small part of the seed, the seed was there before him and it was there after him. I was never close to John but I don't remember him ever demeaning anyone, I remember john had a sadness about him, at least that was my feeling, he was a bit serious. I hope he is doing well today, Now that I think about it John was a great guy, he help save lives, he dedicated part of life helping people, thats more then most of us can say, he didn't have to be there.
. We all know the seed worked for some of us and some feel it did us an in justice, well blame that on your parents that put you there. This site is beginning to get mean , I hate to see people leave it.
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Small correction: I'm not ripping John apart for 30 something years ago. I'm responding to his postings on this page, August and September, 2005.
Yes, you're right, John did seem sort of sad. He was not the worst staff member, not by a long shot. There were a few flaming sadists, but he certainly wasn't one. He was rather kind to me personally. He sang "Moon River" to the group, and he probably afforded us more than half the rare moments of genuine levity we enjoyed there. Okay. If I've introduced an element of meanness here, I was unaware of it. But maybe I'll back off.
I disagree with you though about the meaning of "Get out of your head." How do you know someone's "in the shit" just because they're looking spaced out and inward? But hey, we've been over that one, huh?
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here you be!
Welcome back John!
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Marshall, you're a prince.
Marc, I wish I had your composure.
John, when I read those 'sarcastic' questions, I almost fell out of my chair laughing. Why did I fail the Seed? Get out of your head! I never had any obligation to the Seed or Straight and neither did a single member of group who was held against their will.
We live in a contract based society. Contracts acquired through desception, coercion or undue influence are simply invalid. Can you comprehend that? That, even though yours and Art's and most of the parents' intentions were entirely good, you never had a right to force them onto us or to expect, far less demand, anything in return; at least, not anything good!
As to failures within our families, that's none of your damned business. Maybe you should have become a shrink and laid these neurotic parents out on a couch for a living. Oh yeah, rjfro, blame the parents for believing what they were sold? Riiiiiight! It's all their fault. Maybe the Enron execs should have tried that defense?
This was the real gut buster, though. "And finally, if awareness, enlightenment can simply be gained from life (as so many of you propose), without the intervention of a prominent catalyst, how do you explain the state of the people, the nations, the condition of planet earth today?"
John, it's been over 20 years now. You still believe the Seed would have saved the world if only.... what? If only Art and Lybbi had listened to your advice? Fact is, whether you accept it or not, Straight and The Seed were similar enough that I had no problem at all getting along in group for two years by applying what I had learned about the Seed. There was even a Sr. Staffer named Chris who reminded me very much of you personality-wise. It was a constant tet-a-tet between Chris and me. He was obviously smart enough and dispassionate enough to see what was going on and, occasionally, cut a kid or the entire group some much needed slack. And I was constantly dropping little hints that I thought he ought to know better when he did let things get out of hand, which was rather too often in my opinion.
Straight HAS had a significant impact on our country and on the world. I don't know how you could call it positive. Just look into what DFAF, DPNA, ASAMS, MJCDTF* and the rest of their aliases and cronnie organizations have been up to on every level of local to international policy. There's little doubt that the Semblers succeeded where Art failed. They had a better business plan, better connections and they have imposed Program onto broader society in many ways.
And that's just one offshoot. Around the same time Bobby DuPont was setting Art up w/ his millions in federal funding, Mel Wasserman took the Synanon method to greater heights through CEDU (rumored to stand for Chuck E. Dederich University) They hooked up w/ the LGA people and have build a virtual empire of toughlove hategroups which generate millions per year for investment in public policy.
Now here I can cut Art considerable slack and even dig deep and find some genuine gratitude. He was a smart guy, no doubt. And he was in a position to do damned near anything. The cops wouldn't question him, neither would the parents and woe to any politician, teacher or anyone else who made his enemies list. I can't believe he was too dumb to play ball on that level. So that only leaves one alternative; he decided to cut his losses and reign over his small following rather than ride along to where that train was headed.
Based on what you've said about why you split, I'm thinkin' you didn't see it coming. And, based on what I've heard from later-day Seedlings, it seems that Art was able to regain some of that hippy love-fest vibe that was missing from Straight. And all these years later, you're still crying sour grapes cause you didn't get to take over the world? Please! Count your blessings!
Finally, I obviously recognize that some people like you landed up there at a time in your lives when you were genuinely in dire straits. And you must recognize that, for whatever reasons, the Seed experience has had a profound impact (good or bad) on just about everyone who had significan contact w/ it, regardless of their condition going in. Has it occured to you yet that, quite possibly, you were not thinking entirely clearly back then? Maybe, in the process of alterning your path away from opiate addiction and prison, the experience had other effects on you of which you were not and are not aware?
* If you're completely unfamiliar w/ these acronyms, then you don't know what you're talking about. Sorry, that's just how it is. Marihuana influences Negroes to look at white people in the eye, step on white men's shadows and look at a white woman twice.
--Hearst newspapers nationwide, 1934
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It was what kind of kids "see" Dr Kieser not love
Dr Kieser.
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I think I was wrong. Maybe it was love.
[ This Message was edited by: Ft. Lauderdale on 2005-09-03 09:34 ]
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Hey Ginger, I think we can acknowledge that rjfro22 makes a valid point by saying "blame your parents." I don't think putting a kid in the Seed or Straight was analogous to buying stock in an oil company. What kind of parent "buys" an organization that says, "Turn your kid over to us, just let us do what we do, and we'll turn that kid into a model child, with the proper attitude." ??
All the same, again, this site isn't about our parents; it's about the Seed. Saying that the Seed has no culpability because the parents were to blame is like saying that if a child is sold into slavery by his or her parents, then the slaver himself has no culpability.
(Just an analogy. I'm not equating the Seed with being sold into slavery.)
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No Marc, the anology stands because many of the parents (not all) were sold a phony bill of goods, just like those investors in various ponsy schemes and the like.
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I disagree. The "bill of goods" was.
1) get kids off drugs
2) We teach kids to " Love self , Love God and Love Country"
thats how I remember it.
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There was alot to be learned at the Seed. #1 - learn to love thyself and God. #2 - I loved the expression "get out of your head". When I am feeling sad about something that expression still comes to mind and helps me realize that I need to move on and stop feeling sorry for myself. I look around sometimes and realize that I have alot more insight into life than most of the people I am around do. Most people have not ever taken the time in their lives to learn about themselves because it's not always pleasant. I thank God everyday for the Seed and all that I gained from it. If you didn't gain anything, I guess that was your choice and your loss. My motto in life is to Make the Best out of Things -- we have a choice (choose to go outside today and enjoy the day instead of writing in this website). By the way, what would you have done differently if it were your child and you were worried about them dying? And the last thing is, sorry it didn't help everyone but thank God it helped me and several of my wonderful new/old friends. It's not too late to go outside and have some fun or enjoy life.
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JRENFRO YOU ASK: (Sorry if I misspelled your screen name)
What kind of parent "buys" an organization that says, "Turn your kid over to us, just let us do what we do, and we'll turn that kid into a model child, with the proper attitude." ??
THEY ARE DOING IT RIGHT NOW - TODAY. In these very times in which we live and breathe. These drug rehab businesses did it from the inception. If this MARKETING works (which it does) and it keeps profits steady or drives profits up, then it is never changed- it is only improved upon. That's business plain and simple.
I wrote on another thread about my "baiting" application to a company out in Utah. I swear it was real. Try it yourself if you don't believe me. It might take about 3 or 4 hours, but you will get confirmation of what I wrote. You can arrange for it all on-line.
The people who think it did not happen 30 years ago are just as blind now as folks were back then. Blind to what right in front of your faces.
Why give John Underwood or any other blind sleeping people any power or creedence by responding to the obviously condescending and programmed responses. Seriously, let 'em hang in the wind.
Guys, it's time to get active and serously look at our lives and what we have done, or not done, as a result of our experiences. Put the knowledge and proof you have from the past month into action.
Just a thought.[ This Message was edited by: Stripe on 2005-09-04 08:02 ]
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No, its not too late to enjoy anything. In fact, right now I am outside, In Indonesia, and having a blast.
Shout Out Maggie.
Here is the thing...you "choose" to take positive lessons from the seed. You found god where god really only existed in a conceptual form, not where any god..christian or otherwise..was studied or revered. That is your choice..
I would ask you again Maggie My friend..do you realize you were in a cult, and how do you feel about that?
John...others have answered you much better than I choose to try here. You keep throwing diversions out there a la seed tactics instead of engaging people in real diaglogue. No matter, that as well is your choice.
The order of the day, fT. Laud, at the seed can be anything you want, but that does not change the reality that it was shoved down the throat of people that didn't want or need it, and mixed in with all these sappy lessons you people extol was at the core an exlusionary cult based on the hero worship of a smidget of a man who attempted to replace the families of normal people with the seed while he sat on his on created throne on his own little kingdom. The wonderful "lessons" that art originated are today, as we speak, being forced on young kids that smoked a joint or two and are now locked away from normal society until such time as their will and spirit are sufficiently broke until they "get it".
How about Someone swings by your house right now and locks you in a room until you convert to Islam? Would you then be extoling the virtues of Mohammed to us 30 years later? Does the fact that Positive lessions can be taken from Islam excuse the methods that we may now shove down your involuntary throat? Would it help that countless Muslims logged on a website and told you that the lessons you learned under captivity could be used for good and you could just "forget the bad"? Com'n, open your eyes and see the elephant in the room!
What is so hard for some of you to understand here? It isn't whether or not for example you took a positive slant on the serentiy prayer that is at issue, it is that the seed was a coercive behavior modification cult that harmed countless children and the legacy of this slanted warped idea continues to harm children to this day. To deny the reality of that is to be stuck 30 years ago in some failed utopian fantasy somewhere in your mind.
Good luck letting THAT go....
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Thanks for the clarification there, Greg.
I do wish everyone good luck in LETTING THAT GO. It's nice to see that it runs both ways.
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Amen. Thank you, Greg.
So . . . I wonder if there is anything we can do, as an interested demographic, to end or limit these kind of abuses as they exist in the present. Kind of like a "Veterans Against the War" group? Wouldn't it be great if we could actually--forgive the expression!--save some kids?
We're definitely more powerful together than any of us are alone. Perhaps those of us interested in this idea should start to brainstorm a little.
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Well, I have to agree that these teen programs have always been about the parents. And yes, that's exactly how they're marketed.
But not all the parents who fall for it are insane beyond redemption. A good many, in fact, come to their senses after awhile, pull their kids, help pursue civil and criminal action against the abusive programs. Remember, too, that the marketers now have an array of program names and marketing material to choose from. So they can sell a parent even more effectively on whatever they want to hear.
So the market remains strong. Even in a case like Brown Schools where a few lawsuits and regulatory sanctions drove them into bankruptcy, they just ship most of the kids to other programs, sell off the properties to other program operators, hang a new shingle and continue w/ business as usual. This is often true even of programs where kids die of stupid things like dehydration, exhaustion, exposure and untreated illness. And the operators and majority of the parents are just as adept as Seedlings ever were at blaming the kid for it.
Here's a prime example:
Corey had snapped as he and Laura discussed implementing one of Teen Help's latest practices ? removing kids from their homes if they didn't follow a strict behavior contract.
Despite the tragic outcome, Laura says that Teen Help was a godsend. Without it, she says, Corey might have died years earlier.
http://www.denver-rmn.com/desperate/sit ... esp1.shtml (http://www.denver-rmn.com/desperate/site-desperate/0702desp1.shtml)
I'm pretty certain that's exactly how my mother would respond if it were me.
Now, there are legislative efforts in the works to better regulate and control the industry. Just search these forums on "institutional child abuse" or "rep miller" for leads on that. Personally, I don't see any significant progress in this area since HRS managed to force Straight to hang meaningless 'clients bill of rights' sheets on the walls back in around `81 or so.
Personally, I think the root of the problem goes back to the demonization of youth that's been going on here since the `60's and in Europe to some extent more recently. In our day, the Manson Family was the big shocker. What parent wasn't terrified that their middle class white kids would take a hit off a joint and then, suddenly, go crazy and knife them in their sleep? (oh yeah, all but our parents....)
Today, I think the propaganda is more pervasive and more varied. Just browse through this bestselling educational resource right here
http://www.disciplinehelp.com/ (http://www.disciplinehelp.com/) and tell me if you know of a soul on this planet who can't be tagged as dysfunctional thereby.
I think that, that broadly deployed corruption in our society is the problem that needs to be addressed. And the best way to address it is through dialog. RAMPANT Talkin' out in group!
I believe that all important matters have to be settled here, not in the clouds somewhere after we kick off.
--Billy Joel, American musician
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Stripe,
Where did you come up with JRENFRO. I went skiing
with someone by that name in 1978 or 79. I back tracked but am baffeled? :question:
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On 2005-09-04 07:13:00, Magpie wrote:
By the way, what would you have done differently if it were your child and you were worried about them dying?
A complicated question indeed Maggie. First, one must explore the basic premise..IE: what were the real chances of a 14 year old drug experimenter dying as opposed to the "cure" harming them? What are the long term affects of behavior modification and specifically the warehouse type extreme behavior modification we were subjected to? On individuals? On groups? What is the death rate for 14 year old teenager drug experimenters not subjected to This form of treatment as opposed to the death rate of post Behavior modification kids? The drug addiction rate for these groups? The pyschological consequences on individuals? groups?
In other words..No one knew then, and they bloody well don't know now. Our parents collectively are guilty of jumping on the bandwagon and believing that the end justifyied the means. Many people have gradated these programs and then killed themselves. You know this first hand. Others have died of drug overdoses and at least one resident poster has severe mental issues.
So...what is the net result of being institutionalized in synanon based drug rehab for non addicted children? I suggest the anecodotal information indicates a negative gain on several levels.
In the very least this cultic immersion causes people to believe that they were so freaken worthless and powerless that they couldn't have possibly even survived without extreme intervention. I call bullshit on that for almost everyone who posts here, except for those of you that were truly addicted. The rest of you are just to smart and love life too much to not have found your way out of a little drug abuse problem at an early age. You all know people who as kids did some drugs and came out of it, and they may now be running your local bank or brokering your investment deals or even be a local politician or police official. What makes these people so much more able than you?
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BTW, I must say that I have been in the position to watch my child get a bit abusive with substances, most notably drinking to excess when he was 16 and 17. I didn't like it nor could I really stop it. I did however make it clear to him how I felt about itI also came home several times to the smell of marijuana and even more shockingly caught him smoking marboro cigarrettes on several occasions. This really concerned me after seeing the long term affects of excessive tobacco addiction on my family and friends.
I chose to believe in him instead of some slick sales pitch, some snake oil salesman promising to change my kid into someone that believed in God, country and himself.
Hell, I knew he already believed in himself and was just making bad decisions, and I knew the time had come and gone for me to get in there and "Fix" him and further knew from personal experience that attempting to change who someone is often backfires into a situation that quickly spirals out of control. I chose to believe in him, and I always will.
I am very very proud to say that soon he will be graduating college and is a fine young man...
No behavior modification necessary, and no threat of deathinsanityjail looming over his juvenile foolish decisions.
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JU- You wrote:
The architecture (and intent) of this site is designed with the Seed as defendant. If we are going to continue to hold court, why shouldn?t it be the other way? Why shouldn?t The Seed be the complainant?
To answer your proposal - I think perhaps theseed already had its day: As the plaintiff, as the judge and as the jury. That's what it did for all the years of its existence. It was designed to hold people accountable for their personal transgressions, problems, mistakes, crimes, errors, drug use - whatever you want to call them.
And you and me and every other person who was in that program,voluntarily or not, were the judge and jury and in some instances, the emotional executioner of other program participants.
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On 2005-09-04 15:05:00, Ft. Lauderdale wrote:
"Stripe,
Where did you come up with JRENFRO. I went skiing
with someone by that name in 1978 or 79. I back tracked but am baffeled? :question: "
I mistyped that - It should be rjfro22 (it's right backup the thread). Sorry for the confusion. [ This Message was edited by: Stripe on 2005-09-05 10:38 ]
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Or running your country for that matter!
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I appreciate sarcastic humor too, as long as it isn't mean-spirited. I am curious as to how familiar you might be with this form of communication (internet message boards). Have you participated on other sites? When I first encountered message boards, I had a tendency to approach them much like you did this one. I'd read and think; 'Those' people are so f*cked up!...and lump everyone together as one.
There are specific problems with this form of communication that lend themselves easily to misunderstandings. It's often hard to tell if someone is being silly, sarcastic or cruel. None of the cues that we usually rely upon are present. No voice tone, no body language, no facial expressions. It's easy to have conflicts even with people that you may see eye to eye with in this medium. Civil discourse takes extra effort. People tend to talk past each other regardless of the topic. Given this, it is easy to see how others might misunderstand you (thinking you are serious when you're kidding or sarcastic) & you may be misunderstanding others for the same reason.
For much of the same reasons listed above, it is also a fool's task to attempt to determine another person's state of mind, intention, attitude, etc just by reading posts on a board like this. I once believed I was having conversations with 5 distinct people on a website only to later find out that they were all the same person using different monikers! There are lots of good points for this form of communication, but to use it profitably we all need to keep in mind it's basic shortcomings as well. A person may spend 90% of their time giving to others in some way yet it might be easy to conclude that they are completely selfish or self-indulgent based upon what they choose to write on a message board such as this....especially one that specifically asks for personal experiences. Conversely, one could write all sorts of glowing, wonderfully compassionate things here and be a mass murderer or rapist in real life. Unless your gift of awareness extends into literal ESP (which I think Art and some others did embrace, btw) it is silly to attempt to judge and evaluate anyone based soley upon what they write here...just as it is foolish for anyone to judge your own state of mind based upon the same. It is for this reason that it's best to stick to agreement or disagreement with actual ideas being discussed rather than attempting to dissect the person behind them. This may be partly why you see much of what is discussed here as 'pseudointellectual'.
You may be an old hand at message boards, if so you probably already know all of this. Thanks for the individual responses...much nicer even when people disagree.
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Hi marc. The reference to "spewing venom" was John's term describing critics of the seed used in his first post here. Not my term and it wasn't directed towards you. (See how confusing this can be :silly:
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"There were a number of kind human deeds I witnessed in the Seed. Kindness can happen anywhere. But the institution itself . . . I think it was evil. Is that venomous?"
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I think I've said the same thing in slightly different words. Instead of 'institution' I think I said I found the methodology (coercive thought reform) repugnant. You & I seem pretty-much on the same page when it comes to the Seed. I appreciate your input.
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On 2005-09-02 16:07:00, cleveland wrote:
And I was a super-loyal, full time Seed kid for 7 years, pal. So...
YOUR choice - not mine. When I graduated the program and felt I had achieved my "goal" (getting off drugs and such), I was sooo looking forward to getting on w/ MY life and did!! Were you shackled at the time?? I was not - I moved on.
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At the risk of speaking for someone else, Anonymous, I think Cleveland's point was simply that, given he was a loyal Seedling for a long time, his criticisms of the Seed shouldn't be casually dismissed by JU or anyone else. He wasn't complaining about his tenure.
Good for you for moving on with your life. I hope it's been good, on balance.
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Funny, I just went back on this thread and read JU's posting directed to me, dripping with sarcasm. I guess I must have touched a nerve, John, I'm sorry. I am also glad that you have achieved your goals, and that you are living a good, productive life. I apologise for my own sarcasm, which is a weapon of weakness. My weakness is my anger in reaction to your post, where you flip my own questioning and challenging the Seed back on me - essentially to put me on trial for my Seed years, my relationship with my family, my own integrity, and my present.
Wow.
I am back on the front row, I guess! Fortunately, I am an adult at this point, and I WILL walk out those doors. At the age of 19, I was in turmoil, looking for someone to tell me, please, what to do with my life. The Seed supplied all of the answers without ambiguity, and I signed on. I won't do so now.
I won't take the bait, John.
All I am doing here is exploring my feelings, both positive and negative, about my 7 year association with now-defunct drug rehab/cult/community of choice, whatever you want to call it. I have legitimate questions about the value of that association for me, the usefulness of that model in current treatment for addiction, and the role of coercion, peer pressure and 'choice' play. I have seen family members struggle with addiction, including my own mom who required a legal and financial guardian and involuntary treatment for alcohol-induced mental and physical breakdown, so I have struggled with these issues in a way that is not merely academic.
I would love it, John, if you would address these issues: when is it OK to compel someone into treatment? What should the nature of that treatment be? And what are the limits to that treatment, if 'tough-love' or whatever is a part of it than how do you eliminate abuses?
Walter
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To the forum participants and moderators:
I have not re-read this thread or the other John Underwood threads, nor do I care to. My first read through was enough. I found the responses more often than not condescending and really insufficient. This is especially so in light of the fact that the moderator guaranteed Mr. Underwood would be immune from the very kind of responses he has put out there to some very probing and sincere questions.
Frankly, I got nothing much at all from the what Underwood posted - well, other than pissed off at myself for: 1) wasting my time (again) and 2) actually believing for even one instant that there would be a truthful, thoughtful response from a responsible staff member. My bad.
I do feel for the folks who put in years at the seed only to be summarily dismissed and insulted with sarcastic and caustic responses from Underwood.
I just think it's very interesting and telling that Mr. Underwood could not stop himself from attempting to undermine and put down the questioners -- even in the face of the moderator's guarnatees. The flawed dogma and programmed thought processes prevail. That's enough to convince me of the value of what I read and the longterm effects of that programming.
I try every day to be impeccable with my word, spoken and written. Some days I succeed, some days I fall short. But regardless of the end result of my effort, if I am wrong I acknowledge it and try to learn from my errors.
What I see here in this discussion, and the others, is that in the Seed world there is no error. If there is any error to be perceived or entertained, it falls fully upon me to acknowledge it and deal with the consequences - whether the error is mine or anothers.
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I object. Overruled. I'll see you in my chambers.
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striper Do you mean remarks like:
"it just goes to show that you are a sheep - a follower, a bleater. BAAAHHHH Someone who has no original thoughts whatsoever. BAAAHHHH"
oh nevermind, that was you who wrote that.
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and striper:
"I try every day to be impeccable with my word, spoken and written."
ru f___kin' kiddin' me? what drugs are you on that can produce this kind of self-delusion?
please reveal your dealer's name.
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Lame! Calling Stripe a stripper is probably not going to have the impact you might expect. I know she's been called worse. Some ppl call her "lawyer".
The mystery of the beginning of all things is insoluble by us, and I for one must be content to remain an agnostic.
--Charles Robert Darwin, English naturalist
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correction: did not call her stripper, called her striper.
and if this is what you found important in the above posts...
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...and you're right, antigen, being called lawyer is much worse
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Actually, not Animal Farm, as fine a book as that is. I was referring to George Orwell's 1984, with the Thought Police, the Anti-Sex League, and Doublespeak, where words do not mean what they mean...
If you will recall, the State was enabled to act for the good of the individual, whose freedom to think, act and speak were deliberately curtailed, in the name of the larger good.
No, I do not think that is directly representative of the Seed, but I do think there are instructive parallels, for anyone who values individual freedom over groupthink.[ This Message was edited by: cleveland on 2005-09-09 12:31 ]
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Anon who wrote ru f-ing kidding me?
No, I'm not fucking kidding you. I meant what I said, about sheep, about followers and non-thinkers, and about sleepers - all of it.
Did what I write shock you? Did it offend you? If so and you want an apology, then ask me and I'll give it. Just PM me and we will get started sorting it out. That way I can come to a better understanding of exactly who you are as a person. And you, if you care to, can come to understand me as a person as well.
My "dealer" is one Don Miguel Ruiz, author of the book titled "The Four Agreements". Others who are better read than me will recognize these principles from Toltec teachings. Here's the book flap synopsis:
BE IMPECCABLE WITH YOUR WORD.
Speak with integrity. Say only what you mean. Avoid using words to speak against yourself or to gossip about others. Use the power of your word in the direction of truth and love.
DON'T TAKE ANYTHING PERSONALLY
Nothing others do is because of you. What others say and do is a projection of their own reality, their own dream. When you are immune to the opinions and actions of others, you won't be the victim of needless suffereing.
DON'T MAKE ASSUMPTIONS
Find the courage to ask questions and express what you really want. Communicate with others as clearly as you can to avoid misunderstandings, sadness and drama.
ALWAYS DO YOUR BEST.
Your best is going to change from moment to moment; it will be different when you are healthy as opposed to sick. Under any circumstance, simply do your best, and you will avoid self-judgment, self-abuse and regret.
You might want to check it out in detail. I found the teachings have help me put some of my seed experience and the anonymous hurlings (yeah that's the word I picked) into perspective.
[ This Message was edited by: Stripe on 2005-09-09 14:53 ]
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On 2005-09-09 12:16:00, Anonymous wrote:
"...and you're right, antigen, being called lawyer is much worse "
OK. Enough lawyer-bashing. Insult me personally if you need to, but please don't insult my profession or my choice of profession. I'm proud of what I do, the people I work for and the results I get for my clients. You would be one god damned lucky person to have me for your lawyer.
On the other hand, as with any troll, I've yet to have the pleasure of knowing exactly who you are. I also do not know how or if you do anything to make a living. For all I know you're just some Art Barker-wannabe staff member dancing around in a white belt and shoes to a bastardized knock-off cult-weiner song. Or perhaps you might be one of the others who got a payout when it was all over.
I've followed the money, I've followed the property deals all over south Florida and I understand how it was used and who still gets the use and benefit of the proceeds and just how fucking close to illegal it still is.
But to peacefully exist and sleep well tonight, I won't assume anything about you.
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"For all I know you're just some Art Barker-wannabe staff member dancing around in a white belt and shoes to a bastardized knock-off cult-weiner song."
Man does that create a funny image in my mind.
:grin: :grin:
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This is to reply to the above anonymous post.
Well looks like you have the "weiner or "Dick" part down. Go find your self the belt and you are good to go. :grin: :grin: :grin:
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I think anybody who came out of the Seed w/ a net profit should liquidate their assetts and pay those who mowed your lawns and otherwise worked for you for free or chump change. THAT would mean something!
Until you've lost your reputation,you never realize what a burden it was or what freedom really is.
MARGARET MITCHELL
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Are you looking for Sandwich money too?
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Ha, yeah, right? You offering?
No, I got paid in Denny burgers already. Talk to some of these people who invested years of their entire lives in servitude. you Momma is a big fat's ________
--Leroy Brown